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Dundee to celebrate Christmas with no reference to Christianity

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Published Date: 13 November 2009
IT IS a story that could have come straight out of the pages of Dr Seuss's The Grinch that Stole Christmas.
City leaders in Dundee are planning a spectacular festive celebration – but with no references to Christianity.

Hailed as a celebration of Dundee's contemporary culture and innovative past, festive season revellers are being promised a visual feas
t of projections and lights later this month. It will be a "Winter Light Night" of festive season illuminations, audiovisual displays, music, street art performances and a children's torchlight procession.

But yesterday the city council and the event's organisers were under attack from church leaders, who accused them of eroding the religious significance of Christmas by removing all references to Christianity from the annual switch on of the city's Christmas lights.

And, instead of the traditional nativity story, the festival will feature a solar-powered disco, a continental market, a circus and a fairy on stilts.

Members of Dundee's Church of Scotland Presbytery have condemned the decision and are urging Kirk members to contact their local councillors to protest against the move.

The presbytery's church and society committee is also planning to raise the concerns with the city council.

The Rev Allan Webster, vice-convener of the committee and chaplain to both Dundee City Council and the city's Overgate Centre, said: "We understand that the Christmas lights are being switched on without the usual events surrounding that.

"The presbytery is concerned at the dropping of the term 'Christmas lights' in favour of 'winter lights' at the festival."

Mr Webster said the Kirk's convener was writing to the council chief exective to express concern. "Members of all the congregations within the presbytery are also being encouraged to take the matter up with their councillors.

"Christmas is a Christian festival, and the dropping of the term Christmas lights and the telling of the Christmas story is an erosion of the religious festival."

He added: "I don't think there is anything sinister here. I think it is more a case of this having slipped through the cracks rather being any sort of politically correct move.

"The presbytery's concern is that somehow, the Christmas aspect of the festival has fallen off the edge."

Mr Webster also explained that as chaplain to the council, he had been invited last year to give a Christmas message before the lights switch-on. It appeared unlikely that he would be playing any role at this year's event.

But he stressed: "I am not knocking the whole programme. It is important for all faiths to be able to celebrate their festivals and I must stress I would also be concerned if people of any other religion had theirs diluted."

A spokesman for Dundee City Council said: "When we are contacted by Dundee Presbytery we will look at the points they are raising and respond to them."





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1

Albion Bob,

13/11/2009 08:39:38
Is this the same council that forced Tayside Police to apologise to a group of non christian people for having the audacity to put a "puppy" on a safety campaign poster???

There could well be a lesson to be learned here for the people of Dundee. Ditch the historical voting and take some time to consider the other parties policies. Or just accept that traditions are being eroded locally and not by Westminster.
2

Mike S,

13/11/2009 09:04:56
Was not George Galaway a councillor for Dundee Council. Says it all nowt changed there.
3

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 13/11/2009 09:26:46
Let's have Saint Bob belting it out in the City Square. That'll stir it up nicely. Gorgeous was indeed the secretary organiser of Dundee Labour Party. I'm sure that Christmas would be a non-word in his lexicon due to his stated preferences in the religious department.

I'm sure that the majority of Dundonians still prefer the Christian celebration rather than a "Winter Light Night" whatever that means. What's the matter with traditional ceremonies and celebrations? If you went to Saudi Arabia do you think they'd be bending over backwards to accommodate your views as a Christian and let you openly celebrate the birth of Christ? No - if any religion and belief set is intolerant it's likely to be of an Islamic persuasion, which let's face it is what we're talking about here.
4

JT,

13/11/2009 13:08:59
Im not religious however its time to get rid of the overkill on political correctiveness and bring back common sense. We are not under Sharia law or customs and we are still classified as a christian country, therefore must be allowed to celebrate christian occasions. How can we teach people to be tolerant of others when we are stopped from being christians?
5

saneatheist,

Bixter 13/11/2009 13:44:13
The Winter festival has been around a lot longer than Christianity.
Saturnalia was celebrated by the Romans and included the giving of gifts and decorating of the houses, it was stolen and renamed by the Christians around 400 C. E.
As for Jesus being born on 25th December, don't even get me started!
6

JCA REID,

Annan 13/11/2009 14:00:33
& why not?? After all it was the Christians, who we all know are a tolerant people & never hurt/discriminated/exploited anyone throughout history hijacked a Pagan Festival - one of Big-eats & Drinking, using up the last of the fresh food in preparation for the long Winter. They simply couldn't stand the fact that other folk were having a better time than they were!
J C was born in October 4BC - not 25th. December. It's like the Queen & that SNP Glasgow North East having 2 birthdays!
7

,

13/11/2009 14:16:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
8

Eric D,

13/11/2009 14:18:36
The white liberals aim is to destroy this country from within by undermining Christianity,Family,and Patriotism. Without these, and their inherent virtues ,we will be sadly diminished as a people.

Strange how the muslims, hindu's and seiks living here do not face such identity problems, on the contrary they are rock solid behind their faiths, and even positively encouraged to practice them , while the same fools simultaneously airbrush Christianity.
9

lobout,

Edinburgh 13/11/2009 14:41:30
I thought the whole point of the festive season was to celebrate Christmas??????
10

danbob,

13/11/2009 14:43:07
To those of us who have understanding of the bible, this is music to our ears. Yet another piece of bible prophecy starting to come true. Another piece in the mosaic. Bring it on, and well done Dundee.

This is a piece from revelation which prophesises the fall of the churches and Christmas and all the trappings and the demise of the ones who get rich off the back of it. Babylon the great in the reference refers not to the Babylon of old but the false religion that stemed from there. Like what the churches preach. Read this with an open mind and tell me it's not happening.

(Revelation 18 verse21) And a strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again. 22 And the sound of singers who accompany themselves on the harp and of musicians and of flutists and of trumpeters will never be heard in you again, and no craftsman of any trade will ever be found in you again, and no sound of a millstone will ever be heard in you again, 23 and no light of a lamp will ever shine in you again, and no voice of a bridegroom and of a bride will ever be heard in you again; because your traveling merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth, for by your spiritistic practice all the nations were misled. 24 Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth

11

Deadpan,

13/11/2009 14:45:09
If Christianity is the one true faith and all non believers are condemned to eternal damnation in hell (which is something that I was indoctrinated with growing up) then I don't see what the problem is. Why so touchy? They should just carry on in their usual smug superior manner in the safe knowledge that those of us happy to recognise the traditional midwinter festival that predates their beliefs have a nasty surprise coming our way.
12

danbob,

13/11/2009 14:53:10
11# The nasty surprise is coming to the churches. The bible does not preach hell and damnation. You will not find any reference to any place called hell in the bible. It was used by the catholics to control the masses. The churches are dead men who wont lie down.
13

Jobless recovery,

13/11/2009 15:47:28
Boycott pagan Dundee.

Dundee will probably go the same way as Sodom and Gomorrah.
14

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 13/11/2009 16:58:46
Before christianity, the festival around what is now christmastime was a pagan festival known as Yule.

Trees in your home? Pagan
Lights on the trees? Pagan
Decorations? Pagan
A feast (traditionally of goose)? Pagan
Making merry and singing songs? Pagan
Giving gifts? Pagan

All in all, there's very little that IS christian about christmas.
15

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 13/11/2009 17:00:43
If you study things hard enough, you will even find that "Father Christmas" was Pagan in origin.

...and he was originally dressed in GREEN. He only became red after a certain Coca-Cola advert dressed him in red.

Very traditional isn't it?
16

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 13/11/2009 19:59:24
Kudos to Dundee and shame on the local CoS presbytery; it's not so terribly long ago (around 1952 - 5) that Christmas Day was not celebrated as a holiday in Scotland, being seen quite properly as yet another RC corruption of scripture - as has been pointed out supra, imposing their own interpretation onto an ancient pre-Christian winter feast and claiming ownership.
17

ExpatPoet,

Dundee 13/11/2009 20:44:39
I am putting up a tree - TWO trees. My house will be awash in lights. I WILL BE CELEBRATING CHRISTMAS.
18

Urinal Gum,

Oregon 13/11/2009 22:16:27
Jesus Christ, people read way too much into this. No one is stopping you from celebrating your damn holiday. They just don't want to alienate others. What's wrong with being affable? Why are the Christians so against affability?

/frankly, we should tell our little snowflakes the truth: http://www.urinalgum.com/?p=491
19

just another guy,

Scotland 14/11/2009 09:14:13
When I am in other countries I like to appreciate their (predominantly religious) culture. WHy are we notr celebrating ours?
Can someone from Dundee council check the last census figures to see if their are enough Christians to merit a celebration of Christmas. Do they formally recognise the religious festivals of any religious groups? Are they playing ONLY to minorities.
Dundee's council have failed to respect the people of Dundee for many, many years now. So sad.
20

agnostic,

14/11/2009 10:32:59
While Christmas was traditionally a pagan celebration, adopted by the catholic church and then brought into the protestant religion...it's not the point. The point is, on the 25th December each year christmas is celebrated up and down the country, and around the world. Personally, Christmas is not a religious event for me or my family, but it means something else to us and to a lot of people.
Dundee Council is being ridiculous...they're more concerned about offending anyone of other religious faiths, but they have not asked these groups how they feel about Christmas - chances are they aren't that bothered, it's what it is! I know people of other faiths who cannot understand why the council have decided this. They haven't thought about whether they're offending Christians, or the people that celebrate Christmas for other reasons.
I am pretty sure that the lights down reform street, and particulalry the nethergate depict christmas trees and santa...at least they've kept some of the christmas spirit be it Christian symbols or the symbols we all associate with Christmas.
Not to want to sound like an idiot, but it is political correctness gone mad!It's time Dundee City council actually paid attention to what the people of Dundee think.
21

Honkytowner,

Bangkok, Thailand 14/11/2009 15:07:08
The plain fact is that the winter solstice or midwinter festival predates Christianity by a long chalk. It has been celebrated, by whatever name and with whatever mythological overlay, in diverse cultures, since mankind first noted the pattern of the seasons.

Celebrate the festival publicly, but keep religious observance and symbology out of it. Light your candles, make your sacrifices, say your prayers, dance, burn incense, meditate, whatever... in private.

This is a bold and encouraging step by the good burghers of Dundee towards a more rational and secular society.
22

,

14/11/2009 16:00:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
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23

DundeeSteve,

Dundee 19/11/2009 13:50:43
For those of you stating the winter festival predates Christmas... Who cares???? that is not the issue.

It is ridiculous that they would dream of changing the name of this I am not religious but this is outrageous to say the least and anyone I have spoke to recently has the exact same view.

I will be surprised if there is as many people attend as previous years.

Some schools are now stating they are not doing nativity plays this year .... When will it end??

Yet we are to encourage our children to learn and embrace other cultures religious believes??

 

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