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Diageo must listen to the 'voice of Scotland' over job cuts, says Swinney

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Published Date: 15 July 2009
By TOM PETERKIN
WHISKY giant Diageo's plans to axe 900 jobs are "wrong" and "very damaging to the Scottish economy", finance secretary John Swinney said last night.
He was speaking after hosting a summit in Edinburgh of council, union and government leaders, as well as MPs and MSPs, who are "absolutely united" in their determination to stop the proposals.

The company wants to shut its Johnnie Walker bottling plant in Kilmarnock and the Port Dundas grain distillery in Glasgow, threatening 900 workers with redundancy. Diageo said it would "offset" the cuts with 400 new jobs at its Fife packaging plant.

But campaigners hope they can bring about a U-turn, with an alternative business plan to the closures being drawn up. Mr Swinney said last night's meeting brought together representatives of the "Scotland-wide" campaign to fight the job cuts.

He said: "All of these different interests are absolutely united in working to persuade Diageo to change its proposals. We've got the people of Scotland behind us in this campaign – that is a voice that Diageo must listen to."

The fresh talks on how to bring forward the strongest possible case against the potentially devastating redundancies at Diageo were also attended by Scottish Enterprise, Glasgow City Council and East Ayrshire Council, MPs and MSPs.

Mr Swinney added: "We have made good progress towards working up an alternative business case. We have now commissioned consultants who will underpin that on our behalf through Scottish Enterprise, and we therefore have the ability to work very swiftly to put an alternative proposition to Diageo.

"What is crucial is that we have got to make sure that Diageo realise that their proposals are wrong, that they are very damaging to the Scottish economy and that we want to ensure that different proposals are brought forward. Diageo have to be mindful of the significance of their brand reputation and we are determined to apply the pressure and also the substantive business case to ensure we win this argument."

Kilmarnock and Loudoun MSP Willie Coffey, and Labour economy spokesman David Whitton were also present.

Douglas Reid, the leader on East Ayrshire Council, said: "We're absolutely united and determined that the story's not finished. Every tier of government and every political party is united on this. I don't think Diageo realised the impact of it in Kilmarnock. It's not just about 700 jobs – it's more than that, important though they are. They're writing off our town, and we're determined they'll not get away with it."

However, Scottish Enterprise was last night accused of "dragging its feet" over the job losses and was urged to publish a business plan to save the employees at risk.

The agency has said that concrete plans will only be produced once Diageo's plans have been reviewed independently by an external consultant.

Des Browne, the Labour MP for Kilmarnock and Loudoun, has already made it clear that the business case must be ready for next week, when Alex Salmond meets Paul Walsh, the Diageo Group chief executive.

"The feeling is definitely growing in some quarters that Scottish Enterprise are dragging their feet on this," a Labour spokesman said. "It must be an absolute top priority."

"Of course the business base needs to be robust, but we only have 12 weeks for the consultation period. The clock is ticking. It is vital that Scottish Enterprise supports both plants properly."

Today, Mr Salmond will sign a "Keep Johnnie Walker in Kilmarnock" petition urging Diageo to save the jobs. Scottish Enterprise refuted suggestions that it was not working quickly enough.


Page 1 of 1

 
1

Obanite,

15/07/2009 00:03:05
Nova Albion usually has something interesting to say - where is Lia, exactly? :) Hohoho.
2

AM2,

Scotland,UK 15/07/2009 00:09:12
Please sign the petition and join the rally on 26th July.

http://www.savejohnniewalker.org
3

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 00:10:40

Guaranteed Diageo will not listen and see fit to, carry on with their first intentions.


4

AM2,

Scotland,UK 15/07/2009 00:15:26
#3

If they don't, I'll blame your negativity. ;-)
5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 00:28:53

~4.
AM2,

Problem is that we have seen it all before, to-which we know the outcome, the only way to stop the inevitable, is to surround Diageo with kilted warriors, and cannons from Edinburgh Castle.

6

innesm,

Austin 15/07/2009 00:39:00
From the Diageo website on being a good corporate citizen: "Being socially responsible and investing in Diageo's communities is at the heart of what it means to be a good corporate citizen. Diageo focuses its efforts where its impacts are greatest and where we can make the most difference."
Diageo should be reminded that its stated reputation as a good corporate citizen is in its stockholders best interests.
7

Pretzel Logic,

15/07/2009 01:11:45
Suddenly everyone knows the name Diageo
8

peyote,

Moray 15/07/2009 01:17:45
What parallel universe are Swinney, the TU leaders and the rest of that gaggle of nobodies in. Diageo will do what is best, in the long term for their shreholders.This involves safeguarding Scotch Whisky operations at competitive price. That is their duty and responsibility and by and large they are quite good at it. Name one thing that Swinney and co are good at with the obvious exception of lining their own pockets at the taxpayers expense.
Any major international company considering investing in Scotland must now be marking a hasty retreat on the evidence of this example of 1970's style state intervention around what are after all, business judgements made by a PLC.
9

,

15/07/2009 01:22:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

mark mccann,

Does it really matter? 15/07/2009 01:32:52
AM2,
That's a freakin laugh coming from you, negativity!
I've been reading your posts for years now and the impression you give me is that the sooner the Saltire is burned along with the parliament and maybe Stirling Castle to suppress this impudent nationalist feeling that most of our ancestors fought and died for, the better! D'you honestly think that Diageo would have done this if we were independant?
D'you really believe that the Scottish banks would have been "saved" by Lloyds if we could have bailed them out ourselves with our GEOGRAPHIC share of North Sea oil revenues?
Do you really, really believe that labour or the tories give a monkeys left testicle about what happens to Scotland?
I'm pretty sure you can still get free counselling on the national health, I urge you to do it now, cause if what you believe is true, you'll have to pay through the nose for it soon enough!
Smell the coffee! Pull yer heed oot o yer colon!
You've been proven wrong so many times already, when will you realise?
P.S. I've had to tone this down, as the Scotsman has a brilliant way of deciphering abusive language, unfortunately the still can't distinguish between utter rubbish and the truth.
11

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 01:38:52
8
peyote

John Swinney represents the democratically elected Scottish government and speaks with the authority of the people of Scotland. Who elected the corporate leeches you idolise?

12

Pretzel Logic,

15/07/2009 01:40:57
They haven't sold all the tickets for the Edniburgh Tattoo this year.

What is happening?
13

peyote,

Moray 15/07/2009 02:15:32
Hermitt
Short lesson.
Executive directors of PLCs are not eleccetd . They are appointed to best serve the intrests of the sharehoder. Swinney and co are an irrelevence. Fortunately, he and his ilk have little real decision making capibility as they would inevitabley go for the populist, short term fudge and commit yet more of my money to hair brained schemes. The further these people syat away from business the better for all concerned.
Cynicus
It is a private company. Can't make it any simpler for you.
14

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 02:45:25

In the World of Wealth, Scotland is rather insignificant to others, maybe this would of been a different story, if we had not let our oil revenue, to have been hijacked!
'Soft-Touch' Scotland, unfortunately speaks many a truth.

15

Pretzel Logic,

15/07/2009 02:58:21
#15

"Putty hands" Salmond has a lot to answer for
16

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 03:04:59

~16.
Pretzel Logic,
Indeed!, And as Usual,...The Silence!, On the Important things in our lives, in Scotland.





17

Pretzel Logic,

15/07/2009 03:10:25
How many weeks holiday does Salmond take a year?

It's time to make this public.
18

innesm,

Austin 15/07/2009 03:19:51
"Capitalism: A Love Story" http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mikeinthenews/index.php?id=14178
Even Andrew Carnegie had standards.
19

langtonian,

uphall 15/07/2009 03:23:06
Neigh-Neigh Neigh Mr.Swinney,

Classic case of shutting of stable door's after gee-gee's have bolted.

Odd's simmilar to Scot winning open golf @Turnbery or
SNP increasing their majority of 1(one) seat at next Holyrood elections.

1,000-1 seem's a reasonable bet.
20

bill inch,

EDINBURGH 15/07/2009 03:33:27
19 i agree except he is a non entity in the smaller scheme of things. Another consultants fee being spend to tell him what to say, and when.
Get real folks they will stay if subsidised.
21

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

15/07/2009 04:13:16
Who cares, they are all drug dealers, not only should they lose thier job, they should be locked up!
22

fat lord prodder,

15/07/2009 06:12:21
if you dont like what ,they are doing to kilmarnock,vote with your pocket,stop buying their well known brands,look up on internet,what their brands are ,and dont buy again,once they feel the pinch as sales drop faster than a tarts drawers,maybe then they will listen next time
or could this idea of moving to fife,is done to boost browns standing in the kingdom of fife,will he say oh look at all the jobs i brought you?
is he out there protecting whisky like the french do with their champers?,no,by protecting the whisky,ie if not distilled,bottled and packaged in scotland,then it aint scotch,and imagine sending your most famous product abroad ,to be bottled and packaged by some,who have no connection with it,and even sneer and hate us
if the plant shuts stop buying diageos products
http://www.foodanddrinkeurope.com/Products-Marketing/Diageo-given-cold-shoulder-over-pure-malt-move
if the scotsman can get stuck in to them in 2003 over this one whisky,i hope they will do the same for all the kilmarnock workers
23

Pretzel Logic,

15/07/2009 06:19:36
#25

Why do I think that it might just be your local off licence that suffers....
24

Earman,

Paphos 15/07/2009 06:54:57
Mr Langtonian @ 21

How do I go about placing a wager - a hefty one - on the SNP increasing their number of MSP's at the next Holyrood election by at least one at the rather generous odds of 1,000/1 that you are offering? I think I may fill my proverbial boots and retire in a Goodwinesque manner on my Securicor-choking winnings.

Many thanks.
25

fat lord prodder,

15/07/2009 06:57:09
#27 rufus again,he always takes film characters as his user name
more unionist claptrap as per usual,or i should say more scotsman staff abusing their positions
26

george toot toot,

Europe 15/07/2009 07:10:06
This is the "ugly" side of capitalism. Money is for the shareholders (and the directors) - the salaries are "fixed" by supply and demand (though less so for the directors who pay themselves whatever they feel), hence the rush to the use of cheap Asian labour. It just costs too much to employ Western European workers (apart from the directors). All this worsens our balance of payment.
The workers have no say, big companies can move where they like, when they like; it's entirely legal.
The only way to change it would to replace our present version of capitalism by something more people-friendly.
27

South Ayrshire Sanny Hossack,

Never forget land 15/07/2009 07:14:47
We have the SNP fighting for the Scotch whisky industry, isnt it ironic that part of the cash that put them where they are today came from Sir Sean Con's promotion and advertising of a Japanese brand of whisky.
You could say Sean's actions over the years have come back to bite his best mate Alex in the bum big time!
28

Jim A,

15/07/2009 07:15:21
"Diageo must listen to the 'voice of Scotland' over job cuts, says Swinney".

Diageo doesn't haven't to listen to anybody in Scotland and he won't, he doesn't care about Scotland or it's people. It's all about money and it always has been, people no longer matter in their bank books
29

fat lord prodder,

15/07/2009 07:31:05
#26 i dont use off licences as i no longer drink,i would rather spend my cash on my kids,and have more than a sore head to show for my cash
but people drink,and jobs will be lost in kilmarnock,all we see is labour mps who havent been heard for a while huffing and a puffing,like fatty foulkes running for a bus
they could give a damn about jobs,just make the right noises and promote the shop steward,as a potential candicate for a safe labour seat(if any are still going)mr cash martins constituents are dying due to poverty and bad health,he has done hee haww for them,and now hes a lord,the very same people he blamed for him getting the sack
lord watson,could have been a bigger killer than lord lucan,if that hotels curtains had really went up ,in a fiery blaze
30

peyote,

15/07/2009 07:32:40
Boycotting this companies products would be ineffective as Scotland is a tiny market and would not seriously impact on the sales in any meaningful way. If it did impact on sales, what about the 4000 plus workers and the other suppliers of goods and services at other locations throughout Scotland. In other words a complete non starter.
It matters not whether we have nationalist or new labour or indeed tory set of expedient hand wringers in charge. If we want a modern prosperous Scotland we must allow businesses to make business decisions which it should be noted also includes a £100 million investment at Leven and Sheildhall. The scare story about moving packaging abroad it simply that,a scare story put about by dodgy politicians and tabloids in an effort to get attention for their campaign. Much as it will be tough on those workers at Kilmarnock, it is unacceptable for Swinney to demand a private company to change carefully thought out plans to ensure long term prosperity.
I await the Socialist republic of Scotland in which companies like Diageo may well up sticks if progress is blocked at every turn by Comrades Swinney and Browne.
31

overton,

aberdeen 15/07/2009 07:42:03
24 Baggy Troosers,15

Thank you for the facts at last - only the councillors in Kilmarnock to blame and SEPA at Port Dundas.

Diageo has made a proper commercial decision thanks to idiot controls and unnacceptable costs imposed by publicly funded bodies.
32

Jambos49,

Tynecastle 15/07/2009 07:47:29
I dont why there is such a fuss over the diageo jobs. About 90% of them a short term contract placements. They(the short term contract workers) arent even guaranteed basic employment rights. Is that what the media and Holyrood are in a stushie over?

And the job itself is mostly boxing bottles of whisky. Really are those types of jobs really worht saving? Pathetic.
33

Finloch,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 07:56:11
Despite what their web site may say about "communities" Diageo's view of the world is on a ROI basis.It is one of their oft quoted issues with their "underperforming" Gleneagles asset.
So if they can save an easy buck here and a buck there then they will. Kilmarnock and Port Dundas are profitable or they would have been shut long ago BUT what Diageo want to do is to make them MORE profitable.
The only community they care about is their inner sanctum.
34

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 07:58:15
29 fat lord prodder

I don't know how you can say that post 27 is "unionist claptrap".

The figures and details quoted are from the current Scottish govt's own published analysis. If it is (as you assert) "claptrap" it must, by definition, be SNP claptrap.
35

Linda,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 08:00:49
Labour and Trade Union leaders still playing party politics over Diageo
36

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 08:03:00
35 peyote
Indeed so. If you want companies to invest in Scotland and provide jobs in the long term, you have to allow them to invest in and organise their operations as they see fit. Political iterference is just going to deter other companies from investing here.

37

john z,

edinburgh 15/07/2009 08:06:53
Memo to Diageo CEO (for immediate release).

Dear Sir,

Take a wee look back a month or so at what happened to Fred Goodwin. Feel free to call him and ask him how much fun he and his family have had as persona non gratis of Scotland.

Wise up Diageo.

You can still make good capital from this, by turning around and saying ' you realised the history and heritage within Scotch Whisky, and the short term gain will be rapidly offset by the utter destruction of a historic brand'. You still have time.

Or are you all really just fat capitalist pigs, despised by everyone?

You are not just messing with JW or Kilmarnock, but the Scotish people. Think about it.
38

daveydees,

Simon & Garfunkel 15/07/2009 08:07:07
Where have you gone, Jo Diageo, a nation turns its weary eyes to you - woo hoo hoo, hoo hoo hoooooo
39

donald,

glasgow 15/07/2009 08:08:20
It is the logic of capitalism to maximise its profits and screw the workers. It is traditional for Labour and its Tame Union sponsors to act as factory policeman and spokespersons for the bosses and attack Scottish Indpendence. Petitions and tame demos are OK for a laugh for the bosses, but change nothing.

Only a Government with real with power in Scotland can nationalise and socialise fraudsters like London Guinness in Scotland.
40

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 08:16:02
44 donald
How many industries in Scotland would you nationalise?
41

john z,

edinburgh 15/07/2009 08:16:34
35

You can have an impact, by making sure you contact media and friends in the USA. JW is very,very heavily marketed in the USA.

Even a small drop in consumption over there would have a big effect on diageo. But more than this, it is up to scots to STOP drinking any of their brands with immediate effect. Most single malts are not diageo, and most whisky is not diageo, so we need Scots everywhere to get this message across to India, USA, Canada and Australia. Let them know that JW will not be real JW due to this.

The CFO of each region of diageo WILL notice. You cannot disagree with this decision, and then go out and carry on buying their products, as that is just hypocrisy.

Stop buying their products (and dear Scotsman moderator, there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying to boycott products - it is not illegal).
42

,

15/07/2009 08:18:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
43

john z,

edinburgh 15/07/2009 08:22:56
45

Stae run industries are not necessarily bad, unless you are a rampant american pro- capitalist type of person.

Nationalised or not, the Scotch Whisky industry could be kept in Scotland, and treated with the care and attention it needs, if we had FULL power in our Scottish government.

Imagine if all industries in the UK were owned by foreign companies. This would mean money paid to any company would leave the UK. Is that ok?

That is the direction we are heading.
44

Phil C,

15/07/2009 08:26:53
Diageo don't have to listen to anyone, and probably won't. Swinney and the SNP are making all the right noises, but we all know that this is Labour's fault. Murphy's noises resembled those of a cow breaking wind. Diageo, rightly or wrongly, are putting their business first in a mangled economy.
45

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 08:30:15
48 john z
What difference would it make to Kilmarnock if the Scottish govt had full powers? What would they be able to do that they cannot do now?
46

A Crofter,

Drugpushing Arce 15/07/2009 08:31:16
FatMon and his loyal Finanzminister just can't make up their minds.

One minute, they're going to tackle alcohol abuse; next, they're begging world's biggest drugs baron to stay!
47

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 08:33:07
49 Phil C
When a situation like this happens the world over, politicians feel that they have to make the right hand-wringing noises.

The reality is though that they are usually powerless to prevent the outcome.
48

peyote,

15/07/2009 08:33:08
46

I don't disagree with the decision, despite it being a tough one for the workers at Kilmarnock and Port Dundas.
It is simply an investment decision based on the need to expand production while at the same time remain competitive and therefore secure the long term prosperity of the business in Scotland.
The instinct to stand still or resist change is endemic in British industry and has led to the disappearence of much of the industrial production throughout the UK since the 1960's. Witness the textile, motorcycle and steel industries.
41 is right. We must do all we can to allow business to thrive by not standing in the way of competitiveness or it will discourage the diageos of the world from investing here at all.

49

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 15/07/2009 08:34:17
51 A Crofter

Most cocaine in the World is made in Columbia. Most cocaine in the World is snorted in America. Scotland takes more cocaine per capita in Europe than any other country in Europe.

The lesson here is that if you are making drugs, don't be taking the drugs, sell them abroad. Whisky is worth £3 billion in revenues to the UK coffers, therefore these guys need to stay put.
50

,

15/07/2009 08:35:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
51

Phil C,

15/07/2009 08:35:50
#37Jambos49

I dont why there is such a fuss over the Hearts' jobs. About 90% of them a short term contract placements or loans. They(the short term contract workers) arent even guaranteed basic employment rights. Is that what the Jambos are getting in a stushie over?

And the job itself is mostly falling over in penalty boxes or bottling it. Really are those types of jobs really worht saving? Pathetic
52

Jam Tarts 1874,

On the Rebound 15/07/2009 08:36:24
Independence for Kilmarnock, Port Dundas and Fife!

That will show them! If they were independent the man wouldn't be able to touch our jobs and everything would be fabby................er, maybe not!
53

Stevie G,

Paisley 15/07/2009 08:41:57
why should they listen to the Scottish Executive
54

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 08:43:52
14
peyote

That's funny! Simple was the very word I was thinking of while I read your drivel. Seems like you've spent the last couple of years (at least) with your head firmly ensconced in your fundament.

To believe that corporate management is the fount of all beneficent wisdom was ever a childishly naïve attitude. To continue to cling to this notion in the face of recent events is an act of blind faith worthy of the most deluded religious fanatic.

You may be happy to forego the rights and protections of democracy and put your fate in the hands of pack of corporate hyenas, but some of us have rather more self-respect than to settle for being pawns of a self-serving oligarchy.

55

Andrah,

Embrugh 15/07/2009 08:44:17
"State run industries are not necessarily bad ---- "

Remember East Germany where the State gave the populus the polluting, rusting, tin-can Trabant. Over the border, West Germany, even with it's "pink" brand of capitalism, produced VW/Audi, Mercedes, BMW and Porche.

Scottish Leyland Whisky anyone?
56

morris,

edinburgh 15/07/2009 08:46:04
18 If you dont know...... Why is it time to make this public ?
Maybe it's time you stopped sounding like a total numpty, and said something which suggests you have an IQ which has 3 digits ?
57

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 08:52:44
35
peyote

"I await the Socialist republic of Scotland in which companies like Diageo may well up sticks if progress is blocked at every turn by Comrades Swinney and Browne."

If you imagine Diageo is about to forego the profits to be made from Scotch whisky then you really don't understand corporate culture at all.

58

Pretzel Logic,

15/07/2009 08:56:56
Morris

See the old blood pressure is still as high as ever.

Try some light exercise and long sleeps.
59

morris,

edinburgh 15/07/2009 08:59:22
31 Whisky is a registered trade mark and can only be manufactured in Scotland. Any product manufactured outwith Scotland is called WHISKEY.

The bottling of course can be done anywhere,which is probably what will happen to all three plants in Scotland.
Bourbon and Irish Whiskey have been around for years and compete for popularity in what is arguably the same market.

The product which Sean Connery promoted is not whisky and exists anyway so its makes no difference.
A very opportune criticism and dare I say it one of the precious few which Labour activists have these days and b all to do with Kilmarnocks jobs which are what Des Browne should be securing and cannot. He will of course claim credit if it works out(not that I expect it to do so).
The problem with Scotland is they care more about the LAbour Party which has stabbed them in the back time and again, than they do about their country.
If you think that is sensible,what can I say that you would possibly understand?

60

,

15/07/2009 09:02:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
61

morris,

edinburgh 15/07/2009 09:02:48
63 Poor comment.My blood pressure was checked on Monday and it is if anything below the perfect reading, but it always was. Perhaps a sensible comment might be better? Try it sometime .You never know You might grow to like it.
62

El Franko,

15/07/2009 09:05:36
If the government has to comment on this at all, and I really see no reason why it should, then perhaps something along the lines of 'We're pleased to have a company of such quality in our economy, and we wish them well in their re-organisation.'
63

peyote,

15/07/2009 09:06:41
59
You seem to be confusing democracy with state control.
Wealth creation and that sort of thing come about not by the short term electoral expediency currently being demonstrated by politicians of all parties (and I find it bizarre in the extreme that the various factions represented on this message board are trying to make out that their charlatans are more honourable and worthy than the other charlatans) but by keen economic sense and the judgement to make tough decisions by employers whose income doesn't materialise out of the hard pressed taxpayers pocket.
Left to the political class in scotland, with close support from the various quango's, trade unions and other hangers on, we would all be beholden to the public purse.
Democracy is great for deciding who gets to claim the most expenses but not for running a business.
64

SlyFifer,

Somewhere South of Fife 15/07/2009 09:06:57
There is a relatively simple solution to this problem. Have the Scottish Parliament rule by law that Scotch Whisky can only be sold as such when it is distilled and bottled here in Scotland. Any company caught shipping bulk product elsewhere, even to England will be severely fined and repudiated by the Scottish people.
If there is such a strong 'economic' case for shipment of bulk product elsewhere for bottling how come that is'nt a pressing case for Champagne or French Brandy ? surely their cost bases are similar to Diageo's or are they paying their Scottish workers - too much ?.
Whisky is way too important an industry to the Scottish economy and is very high on the list of priorities for the newly formed www.scottishdemocraticalliance.org to ensure successful management and investment for the future.
65

Pretzel Logic,

15/07/2009 09:08:12
#65

Morris

"Any product manufactured outwith Scotland is called WHISKEY"


Well, I don't want to list all that are not, but a couple of examples might be Russian dolls, and Swiss clocks.

Need to get that blood pressure up to get you thinking "straight"
66

Sgian Achlais,

15/07/2009 09:11:08
Well it seems that there are some interesting points being made about the jobs situation.

If they are closing Kilmarnock to go abroad this must be stopped. Scotch Whisky belongs to Scotland.

If they are just moving the employment to a better site within Scotland and reducing the jobs then we must accept this is what they have decided. Bad for Glasgow but good for Fife. Swings and Roundabouts. I am sure I recall many more jobs being lost at factories up and down the country with less fuss. I wonder what the sickness rate and staff turnover is at the Glasgow plant. I also wonder how many Scottish people are actually employed as many of the agency temp contracts get filled with eastern europeans.

There are many companies going bust and the Lloyds banking group for example has shed many more times this jobs in the last year after being bailed out by the public to the tune of billions.

I however do not have enough information to judge this decision in detail but we must ensure Scotch Whisky industry stays in Scotland and more importantly we should legislate to ensure more ingredients are made in Scotland as they French so with their wines.

67

morris,

edinburgh 15/07/2009 09:14:25
70 Whilst I agree that the answer is that SCOTCH WHISKY can only be manufactured and bottled in Scotland,I suspect that this cannot be done now,and I doubt that the Scottish Parliament could do so.
I do however recognise where you are coming from,but I suspect we are trying to shut the stable door when most of the horses are already learning foreign languages or have already bolted.
I agree with what you say though.
68

Tartan Viking,

15/07/2009 09:16:01
#27 Roofarse. Ask yourself this. Is it better to be independent and have a deficit of £3.8 billion (2.8% of GDP) -if that is true - than be part of a Union with at least £2 TRILLION of debt, and growing, soon to be 100% GDP.

Go figure you Hootsman clown.
69

morris,

edinburgh 15/07/2009 09:16:42
71 I shall leave it to people reading that comment to judge how juvenile and inadequate not to mention off topic it is. I dont need to ridicule you . You are far better at doing this by yourself.

What a stupid thing to say.

Keep them coming please.
70

peyote,

15/07/2009 09:17:20
Hermit
Diageo and the rest of the Scotch whisky industry for that matter could relocate packaging plants to parts of the world where interference in decision making is less prevelant. They largely chose not to, as there are authenticity and quality assurance benefits from sending a sealed bottle out of a Scottish packaging plant.
However, these benefits are relative only to the ease of doing business in Scotland. If it were to become sufficiently difficult to operate in Scotland say due to government insistence on following a route with a flawed business rational, they would be failing in their duty to the shareholders not to explore other options.
71

Pretzel Logic,

15/07/2009 09:22:31
#76

Is that with or without wearing your made in CHina t-shirt
72

Sedov,

15/07/2009 09:28:23
We live in a global economy run by around 500 huge companies who control our lives.

In the good times most people accept all that is going and tell the socialists that their system is the best and will always remain so.

Now of course the system is in crisis and the workers, as usual, will have to pay.

In the short term we must support the Diagio workers.

In the long term we must fight for workers ownership and control under a planned socialist society... otherwise the Diagios will continue on their merry way.
73

,

15/07/2009 09:29:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
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74

morris,

edinburgh 15/07/2009 09:29:46
78 Was that comment made after consuming a bottle of Johnnie Walker?
At least that would be slightly back on topic.
Carry on making a total "ears" of yourself if you want. The fact that you dont even know you are doing it speaks volumes.
Ears is an anagram by the way .
75

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 09:31:12
77
peyote

"...as there are authenticity and quality assurance benefits from sending a sealed bottle out of a Scottish packaging plant."

In your eagerness to bow and scrape before your corporate masters you miss some crucial points. The reality is that Diageo is aiming to move all its bottling and packaging operations off-shore. The closure of the Kilmarnock bottling plant is part of this longer-term strategy.

Left to their own devices, Diageo would export all whisky in bulk to be bottled wherever in the world workers are most easily exploited. From there, it is but a short step to sourcing the "whisky" from "more competitive" suppliers.

You and your ilk would allow this to happen. And when Scotland's whisky industry is totally destroyed you will deny all responsibility, instead blaming all the people you insist have absolutely no say in such corporate decision-making.

76

,

15/07/2009 09:50:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
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77

Darien,

Panama 15/07/2009 09:57:03
"Des Browne, the Labour MP for Kilmarnock and Loudoun, has already made it clear that the business case must be ready for next week"

What the eck does a New Labour MP know about business?
78

,

15/07/2009 09:57:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
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79

peyote,

15/07/2009 10:01:32
Hermit

"The reality is that Diageo is aiming to move all its bottling and packaging operations off-shore. The closure of the Kilmarnock bottling plant is part of this longer-term strategy."

Ok so now we finally cut to the chase.

You know this to a fact do you?

Where did you glean this information from?

Does the fact that Diageo are investing £100 million between Leven and Shieldhall packaging plants not strike you as a bit odd if the plan is to move packaging out of Scotland?



80

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 10:02:11
83
Apollo 18

"Multi National Companies will never locate in Scotland in the future if they think that political interference will dominate their decision making."

It is remarkable how eager some people are to roll over in the face of corporate blackmail.

And it is noticeable how much less virulently opposed to "political interference" companies are when the genius of their managers puts the firm deep in the smelly stuff and they're looking to the taxpayer for a hand-out.

81

,

15/07/2009 10:02:55
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82

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

15/07/2009 10:03:55
I believe that the market place in which the Johnnie Walkers blends in particular operate within, cannot easily be compared to (in the classic economic theory terms), the market place for standard widgets.

JW brands such as Black, Green, Gold Labels, and Swing are aimed primarily at the premium export market.
They are marketed abroad on the basis of their history, quality and authenticity and not on their price.

It would be tantamount to commercial suicide to compromise the marketing advantages these products enjoy worldwide by shifting any aspect of their production or bottling to anywhere outwith Scotland.

As far as closing the Kilmarnock plant in favour of Leven is concerned, I suspect that the business case may be that Leven, having recently received significant new investment is currently operating well below capacity and can easily absorb Kilmarnock’s output, with a subsequent overall reduction in overheads.

What the Scottish Enterprise study must attempt to prove is that the superficial short-term attraction of this approach is not in the medium to long-term interests of the industry in general or Diageo in particular.

The socio-economic effects of the Kilmarnock closure would of course be devastating for that part of Ayrshire, an area already without its troubles to seek.

Sharp pencils are required.
83

morris,

edinburgh 15/07/2009 10:14:13
82 I couldn't help but notice that DIAGEO's spokesperson was refuting claims about the eventual removal of bottling in Scotland, almost before they had been accused of this! It was clearly a rehearsed response and syllable perfect,so why has he such a proficient answer prepared for a question which according to him has no basis? They expected this question and I think we all know why!
Of course they will bottle in the third world where the staff are paid a bowl of rice per day or something along those lines.
Rice Whiskey may be what Scotch becomes.
We definitely need greater protection for the Whisky industry in Scotland and multinationals care only about shareholders returns,and if its possible to relocate they will.It up to the Kilmarnock's workers with our support to demand safeguards for the industry here in Scotland, although I'm not sure just how realistic that may prove to be.

Any suggestions on a way forward here should be welcomed.
These guys at Kilmarnock need as many friends as they can find.The other two plants are probably next to for GOd sake Unite under one campaign or we are definitely sunk.
84

peyote,

15/07/2009 10:15:04
#90
Up to a point you are right in what you say.
Many many Jonnie Walker consumers, particularly young asians who major on the Red Label variety however know nothing of the heritage and are simply attracted to a brand that is perceived to be high quality and mixes extremely well with cola and is in competition with beer.
With regards the move to Leven, the proposal is to build a new bottling hall on top of existing capacity so you theory is wide of the mark I'm afraid and the decision is a long term expansion of modern facilities and not a short term fix.
85

langtonian,

uphall 15/07/2009 10:27:55
Diageo, being a top 100 company quoted on the stock exchange,with head office in London are unlikely to have come to a sudden snap decision regarding "Johnny Walker" Kilmarnock.

With the massive investment's they have built up in Scotland, and in particular Scotch Whisky and Hotel,s these decisions are made in order to maintain both jobs and the resultant on going success of a thriving group.

The information is all there,up front for all to see, simply refer to Diageo in an easy web search.


Apart from a very large employment base at plants -long established around Scotland, including West Lothian,Fife, Glasgow,to say nothing of an amazing assortment of individual distilleries within Scotland.

The Finnance Secretary would be well advised to leave Diageo to Diageeo and concentrate his time on focusing on his own budgetary output.

To poster 28,refering to my post @21.
Make that 1,500 to one.
86

Tartan Viking,

15/07/2009 10:30:37
#94 Group Captain Lionel Blair - aka Roofarse

Oh we are for sharing things now are we? Rich coming from a Unionist who was happy to see our assets stolen for 300 years. We should be asking for at least £170 Billion back!!

The point is, an independent Scotland would not have run up a bill of this maginitude in the first place - £34,000 of debt for every man, woman and child in the land.

Come off it Roofy, even you cannot admit to that you clown.

87

Tartan Viking,

15/07/2009 10:32:27
#96, A brain transplant for Apollo 18, the spacehead.
88

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 10:34:19
87
peyote

"You know this to a fact do you?"

You said it yourself. Companies will always seek to maximise profits regardless of any wider consequences. Taking downstream operations off-shore would lead to massive savings (externalise costs).

Sourcing "whisky" elsewhere would also help to boost profits and so must be something Diageo would do if they could get away with it. Which they would if you and your ilk had your way.

That's just the way it is in business. You have to try and be realistic about these things.

"Does the fact that Diageo are investing £100 million between Leven and Shieldhall packaging plants not strike you as a bit odd if the plan is to move packaging out of Scotland?"

Not in the slightest. You are the one who thinks corporate decisions are always wise and for the best, not me. I've seen too many businesses ruined by "reorganisation" and "rationalisation" that everybody but the senior management knew was a recipe for disaster.

I've seen plant moved from one location to another at a cost of millions, only to be moved back again six months later at a cost of more millions.

I've seen key workers paid off to save money only to be hired back again on contracts that almost doubled the previous wage plus non-wage costs.

I've heard management talk of "long-term investment" and "commitment" and "corporate responsibility" the day before they throw an entire workforce on the scrap-heap.

I've been around too long to be as gullible as you.

When Diageo SAY they are investing £100 million, I do not immediately start applauding their generosity. I ask awkward questions such as, what is the real amount? Where is it coming from? And if they are spending this, what do they stand to gain?

If you want to understand what is going on you have to think like a corporate leech. Closing the Kilmarnock plant was always going to be the hard part of moving the whole operation off-shore. In two, or five, or ten years time when they announce
89

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 10:35:00
CONTINUED


If you want to understand what is going on you have to think like a corporate leech. Closing the Kilmarnock plant was always going to be the hard part of moving the whole operation off-shore. In two, or five, or ten years time when they announce the closure of the other plants, there won't be nearly so much fuss. After all, it's not as if there is any tradition involved. It's only 400 jobs. And all "low-grade" jobs, at that. People like you will simply say that it is in the best interests of the company and therefore it must be good for everybody.

It's just business.

90

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 10:40:29
91
Apollo 18

"What a strange little world you live in."

It's the real world. Not the fantasy land where multi-national corporations always do what is best for the communities in which they operate.

When companies have the power to overrule democratically elected governments by threatening to inflict economic harm, what else ar we to call it but "corporate blackmail"?

91

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 15/07/2009 10:40:48
In the 1980's, Guiness plc executives were involved in a share-trading fraud, using illegal practices to raise the share value of Guiness plc, in order to take over Distillers, a much larger company, and acquiring a large number of important Scottish whisky producers.

Guiness later became Diageo.

It seems that the Bank of Scotland was not the first major company taken over by a smaller outfit by dubious means. The union dividend indeed.
92

peyote,

15/07/2009 10:44:42
.....meanwhile back on planet earth.

All of your bizarre ramblings amount to no more than a speculative fantasy to support your scewed take on the real world where successful businesses from time to time make tough decisions. You have absolutely nothing to support your theories except your victim mentality and a glass half empty attitude.





93

Yeah1,

15/07/2009 10:51:35
Electric Hermit:

Yesterday you stated that I had compared the SNP and the Scottish people to nazis.

I will ask yet again - where is the evidence for your accusation?

Why are you seemingly unable to provide me with proof?

If you want to be taken seriously you really need to refrain from making completely untrue accusations - it doesn't reflect well on you as a person, and it casts into doubt any facts you provide, or points you make, in your other postings.

I expect you to either provide me with evidence or to apologise for your slanderous accusations...
94

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 11:08:05
92
morris

"Any suggestions on a way forward here should be welcomed."

What is required is a system of appellation control whereby only whisky that is totally produced and bottled in Scotland can be labelled as "Scotch".

Firms such as Diageo will simply have to adjust to this new reality.
95

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 11:09:23
103
peyote

"You have absolutely nothing to support your theories except your victim mentality and a glass half empty attitude."

And forty years of real-world experience.

96

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 11:17:00
104
Yeah1

"I expect you to either provide me with evidence or to apologise for your slanderous accusations..."

Life's full of little disappointments.

97

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 11:24:59
108
Rulesbutnotrulers

"Fact is Diageo is making a valid business decision."

That's fine. If you accept Diageo's bottom line as the sole criterion by which all decisions should be judged. Not all of us are so shallow-minded.

"Diageo is investing millions in Scotland."

Learn this simple lesson. When corporations invest, they do so SOLELY for what they can take out. They are not doing anybody any favours. Get off your knees.

98

Yeah1,

15/07/2009 11:31:33
#107

"Life's full of little disappointments."

Okay well I guess that's the closest I will get to you admitting that you completely made up your accusations.

I'm sure if your pathetic allegations were true you would have found proof of them by now.

I had previously thought of you as one of the more sensible SNP supporters on here, but the fact that you have lied, made up completely untrue accusations, and refuse to apologise proves that you cannot be taken seriously.
99

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 11:34:50
110
Yeah1

"Okay well I guess that's the closest I will get to you admitting that you completely made up your accusations."

You certainly seem to have convinced yourself.

I just hope you've learned a lesson. And that's my past word on the subject.

100

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 11:52:44
111
Electric Hermit

"And that's my past word on the subject."

It's also my LAST word on the subject.

101

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 11:54:31
112
Apollo 18

"No one is disputing that."

Then your remark about "a strange little world" was just as pointless as it seemed.

102

Yeah1,

15/07/2009 11:56:21
#111

"I just hope you've learned a lesson."

Yes I certainly have.

I've learnt that in future it will be impossible to believe anything you say, or to take any points you make seriously.

You now have a proven record of making up completely untrue accusations, and of failing to provide any proof or evidence to back up those accusations.

You are a proven liar - your credibility as a serious poster is now completely gone.

You are a joke.
103

Marga,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 11:59:16
Luigiana 102 - interesting comment.

Banking and whisky are (were) iconic products for Scotland. Vested (market) interests largely free of social regulation and that answer only to shareholders are stripping our country of its core industries, and in passing gutting many communities, and some people commenting here approve.

I hope these people never vote, because in their world there is no point in voting - the market will support or destroy your community and you won't have any say. Just like Diageo in Kilmarnock.
104

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 15/07/2009 12:29:29
Diageo will hear what he's saying and then proceed to ignore him because there is absolutely no comeback.

Their corporate responsibility statement is an exercise that every major corporation has to produce to show they have a caring side as well. Caring that is until the $hit hits the fan!
105

brownlie,

15/07/2009 13:38:46
115 Yeah1

Do you accept that you, yourself, are a proven liar and that your credibility as a serious poster is now completely gone?
106

Esox Hunter,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 13:49:03
Whats so strange is thet we never seem to learn from history and we still keep coming up with guff that multinationals have responsibilities to their "communities"

Over decades we've thrown billions of pounds at inward investors from the early days of car production at Linwood, Hewlett Packard Chung Wa et al in electronics, and Motorola in mobile phone technology. What we seem to forget is that when the going gets tough most of those companies look to retrench their activities to the detriment of what are to them far flung production facilities.

The difference with Scotch is that is has to be produced in Scotland so the scope for serious retrenchment is more limited, with bottling abroad being one of the few areas where savings can be made. Already 15% is exported in bulk and bottled closer to the target market and the danger is that ill considered statements might just make Diagio move further in that direction.
107

Esox Hunter,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 13:54:17
What is also sheer hypocricy is where we complain about the Diageos of theis world but were quite happy to see the Royal Bank of Scotland in its heyday buying over banks in the US and then rationalising duplicated functions and sacking thousands of local employees. Wheres our community responsibility then ???
108

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 15/07/2009 14:26:18
#120

No objections toa commercial takeover if it is all legal and transparent. The Guiness (Diageo) acquisition of a Scottish company twice its size was certainly not achieved in this manner.

I agree with some of the previous posters - all Scotch should be bottled in Scotland, and consumed anywhere it is appreciated.
109

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 15/07/2009 14:29:00
#121

and when the Llyods Banking Group is eventually taken over by Banco Santander........?
110

Yeah1,

15/07/2009 14:44:57
#118

"Do you accept that you, yourself, are a proven liar and that your credibility as a serious poster is now completely gone?"

No I do not. I have never made up false accusations about any posters on here.

If I accuse someone of saying something I always have the proof to back up the accusation.
111

Esox Hunter,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 14:50:07
#24 I rather think you are dealing in semantics somewhat in an attempt to draw a distinction between essentially identical situations. And as for Lloyds and Santander if it happens it happens, such is the nature of globalisation. Mind you Santander will be mindful of avoiding RBS's gross incompetence when it took over ABN Amro; they appear to have a good management though so will probably be OK
112

Esox Hunter,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 14:51:29
Oops last posting was directed to 123 Luigiana Sorry
113

Geomac 1,

Scotland 15/07/2009 14:52:05
Diageo are not obliged to provide any jobs but they are a private company and the management are duty bound to do what is right for the company. They are NOT a state owned organisation which has to kow tow to marxist ideology.
This behaviour by Swinney and his colleagues is guaranteed to drive all international industry from the country - so much for putting the economy first!!! Who would want to set up a business in a coutry where the state believes that it has a mandate to interfere in this egotistical manner? The current government hasn't exactly got a track record in managing the economy - all they've done so far is hand us back some of our money in a vote catching way (prescriptions, bridge tolls, free care etc) - but, as is inevtibale, this is catching up with them.
114

Esox Hunter,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 14:54:45
#127 Spot on I could not have put it better myself. The sad thing is that some clowns think this SNP vanity project masquerading as a Government is actually doing a good job !! You really could not make it up and it would be hilarious were it not so damn serious.
115

newsie23,

Go Home Lake, ON 15/07/2009 14:59:04
No politition would pay to keep my 'old' job open - when it wasn't economic to my former employer and its customers. My spending into the local economy (and China) is down sharply. ??continue the bailouts??
116

Geomac 1,

Scotland 15/07/2009 15:15:09
#128
It amazes me too that there are people out there who think that the SNP vanity and girning society at Holrood are doing their best for Scotland - they exists solely to further their dual objectives of independence and building the ego of their leader.
117

Obanite,

15/07/2009 15:33:18
It seems obvious that whisky requires a code of practice that deals with its "point of origin". I would argue that is should extend from ingredients through to bottling and packaging. If this adds £1 to the cost of a bottle, then fine. It is a premium product and this won't tip the balance. In any case, most of the price of a bottle (in most countries) is comprised of taxes. This will help boost rural and agricultural jobs in Scotland.

So, let Diagio shut the plant, but also let them know that they will have to reopen in 5 years time when some sort of whisky "Appelation DOC" is introduced.

Why not?
118

Geomac 1,

Scotland 15/07/2009 15:41:53
#131. You suggestion is more appropriate than the head banging strategy of Swinney et al. However, I'm not sure that bottling could be covered by your proposal. The unique to Scotland argument would stop after manufacturing - on some sort of trade secrets basis - but bottling is another matter altogether - hardly a trade secret or unique??
119

morris,

edinburgh 15/07/2009 15:47:14
105

Agreed .That is where we should be trying to go to.I would not even think about diluting that.

How do we get there is what causes me worry. Who has the authority to pursue such a change.Is this Brussels or who/what?

The position is currently that only that which is "made in Scotland" can be called Whisky but I agree this should include bottling of the product not just manufacture.
Do you know where or by whom such a decision would ultimately be made?
I think also that any brand name which was formerly identifiably Whisky cannot suddenly be used for manufacture of a product outwith Scotland. e.g Johnnie Walker Silver Label (Whiskey produced in China) suddenly appears from nowhere!

The future of these jobs should be secured if possible,but we should also secure the SCOTCH WHISKY industry long term.If we don't we will pay a price one day.
The French would never willingly allow Champagne to be used in Europe to describe Sparkling wine produced outwith the region of Champagne, but I have heard that whilst some USA states observe the use of the term and ban its imitation some USA states are in fact marketing "Champagne" sparkling wine which is home produced (but I have not verified this).
We need to act Thats for sure.
120

,

15/07/2009 15:52:22
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121

Obanite,

15/07/2009 15:52:24
132 - if you legislate for it, then why not? They insist that champagne is stored and turned only in the cellars of champagne. I wonder what could be next? We use imported ingredients, throw them in a distillery, then stick the product into a tanker to be taken to katanga, where it is poured into casks and stored for 20 years, before bottling in nairobi?

The whisky could sit in a cask in a temp regulated warehouse in Congo and bottled in Kenya because some accountant in Diagio argued that it is not a "unique" or trade sensitive process.
122

Yeah1,

15/07/2009 15:52:55
#130

"It amazes me too that there are people out there who think that the SNP vanity and girning society at Holrood are doing their best for Scotland - they exists solely to further their dual objectives of independence and building the ego of their leader."

Yes but it appears people are starting to see through the SNP rhetoric and realise they are nowhere near as good as they claim to be.

According to a recent Times article, voters are apparently turning against Salmond in particular - with his percieved arrogance cited as a factor.

They are also apparently starting to notice a few of the SNP's broken promises, such as on abolishing council tax, wiping out student debt and bringing in grants for first-time home buyers for example.
123

,

15/07/2009 15:54:03
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124

,

15/07/2009 15:56:02
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125

Yeah1,

15/07/2009 15:58:38
#134

"Alex Salmond stands head and shoulders above the political pygmies and quislings of New Labour."

Is really necessary to describe people as 'quislings' just because they happen to disagree with the SNP?

Don't you see the irony of such a description when the SNP themselves split almost in half in 1942, partly because they could not decide whether to support the war on facism or not?

Thats what puts me off the SNP - the sheer viciousness and hatred their supporters display towards others on here, and those same supporters' cultish, fanatical devotion to the SNP.
126

Yeah1,

15/07/2009 15:59:24
#138

"article reference?"

Certainly:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6711039.ece
127

morris,

edinburgh 15/07/2009 16:00:22
130
If the SNP did not pursue its raison d etre they would indeed be an excersize in futility.
Any party which did not try to boost the standing of it's leader would be equally futile in its very existence!

Of course you have to have a leader who is worthy of being called a leader!
I guess that explains why only the SNP are accused of doing what every party SHOULD BE DOING

They are the only one who can!
128

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

15/07/2009 16:00:46
136 Yeah1,

Not a position whip appears to be backed up by any recent opinion poll.
129

morris,

edinburgh 15/07/2009 16:16:25
142 I cannot recall a single opinion poll where Salmond was not head and shoulders above the rest, and I even have distant memory of one where Salmond was rated as the best leader by Labour voters!

Did he not also win Parliamentarian of the Year in the SPECTATOR magazine awards ?
I also recall that Tony Blair was awarded Resignation of the Year , but I think it would be ill advised to offer further comment on that award, especially since Gordon Broon has his eyes on it also ,or at least it looks that way!
130

,

15/07/2009 16:19:44
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131

Earman,

Paphos 15/07/2009 16:21:52
Mr Langtonian @ 95

Please answer the question.....how do I go about getting a goodly wedge on at 1,500/1, and, no offence intended, but, are you good for it? How?
132

,

15/07/2009 16:28:45
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133

Yeah1,

15/07/2009 16:32:55
#144

"It was very restrained and comendable compared to the, "some clown's"

Personally I would not describe calling someone a 'quisling' as either 'restrained' or 'commendable' - unless they of course really are traitors and deserve to be referred to as such.

I would also suggest 'clowns' is a much more mild and inoffensive insult than 'quislings' which has very disturbing connotations.
134

Yeah1,

15/07/2009 16:37:19
#146

"A nasty viscous slur on hundreds thousands of Scots who made the ultimate sacrifice for the UK."

How exactly is describing a factual event - the SNP split in 1942 - a 'nasty vicious slur' on anyone, let alone those who 'made the ultimate sacrifice'?

It is a fact that the SNP split in 1942 because some of them did not want to support the war. It is also a fact that many nationalist and SNP supporters did support the war, and did fight against facism.

The irony here is that you describe others as 'quisling' when members of the SNP themselves could have been described as such in the 1940s.

"You are completely disgusting."

I am 'disgusting' for describing a factual event and the irony of it, but you are not 'disgusting' for calling other completely undeserving, patriotic Scots 'quislings'?
135

Yeah1,

15/07/2009 16:41:15
#146

Thats the problem with people like you and 'Electric Hermit' and other fanatical devotees of the SNP cause.

You are completely unable to accept your party ever makes any mistakes, or ever has made any mistakes.

You think it is perfectly acceptable for you to slur others and use derogatory comments such as 'quisling' about others, but when people point out the irony of this, or criticise the SNP in any way you label them 'disgusting'.

I am just thankful the SNP themselves are not as fanatical and hate-filled as some of their so-called supporters on here.
136

morris,

edinburgh 15/07/2009 16:48:39
139
The SSP Green Party Solidarity SWP and God knows how many other parties disagree with the SNP on some issues and nobody accuses them of this.The accusations are made against individuals I am sure.

Anyone accused of being a quisling has not been accused because he disagrees with the SNP.
He is accused because he is knowingly disingenuous or maybe he actually believes the Unionist argument even though people like John Biffen acknowledged that Scotland had been conned,and Brian Wilson even suggested on TV that Labour explained to Scotland that what the SNP said about Scotland being one of the most wealthy nations in existence if we were indepndent,was true and we had rejected it.
Brian Wilson hs got a brass neck and then some!


We are talking about a period of 40 years at least here.
People who act for self interest against the best interests of their own people are rightly called quislings.Of course people who genuinely believe the message that comes out of Westminster when the opposite has been proven time and time again ,was known anyway, and was backed up by the suppressed McCrone Report,whilst they told us the OPPOSITE of the truth,not to mention even Wendy Alexanders own husband,a former lecturer at Fraser of Allander I believe,favoured independence, and SNP projections/ ecomomic model was checked year after year by the same Fraser of Allander Institute, could still genuinely believe what the Unionist toilet rolls spew out daily and may indeed not be quislings at all.
They may be wrong (or stupid) however.
I depends upon the individual.
137

Obanite,

15/07/2009 17:07:10
Yes, I think the really important issue in all this is that is has nothing to do with people losing their jobs, and everything to do with what the opinions of some members of the SNP may or may not have been during WWII.

Please can you guys debate this tomorrow and for the rest of the week? I have a feeling it will be relevant to all of the headline news.
138

Geomac 1,

Scotland 15/07/2009 17:23:38
Why do these blogs always degenerate into a slagging competition between SNP activists and the rest?
The important issue is what is best for Scotland and for our collective future - the SNP do not have a monopoly on that - surely!!
139

,

15/07/2009 17:26:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
140

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

15/07/2009 17:30:57
152 Geomac 1

Who would you suggest has a viable alternative strategy to that of the SNP?

And how would you articulate that strategy?

141

scotnotbrit,

langlees 15/07/2009 17:32:54
this is a strategic asset for the only country legally allowed to produce it , like all strategic assets it must be treated differently from the general market , it produces consistently good revenue for the country and constitutes a smallish but perfectly formed chunk of scotlands budget , any other country that held such a unique asset would hold onto the direction of that asset through legislation , commercial licensing, etc .we need to treat our assets like adults , immpossible if we continue to vote like children . Vote S N P
142

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 15/07/2009 18:27:53
Geomac 1

Where have you been? Everyone who doesn't agree with the SNP is a quisling and a traitor to Scotland. Come the Glorious Day you will be lucky just to have your head shaved. Otherwise it's the camps for you boy!!
143

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

15/07/2009 18:30:14
#147 Yeah1 - Of Quislings and Clowns

Clowns so far as I am aware have no previous for actively promoting the theory that thier native land should be controled by it's larger neighbour.

Quisling did and Scottish Unionists do...hence the connection...nothing to do with WW II.

Only a slur if if you are falsely accused...not of selling out Norway to the Germans or of being a closet Nazi, not even for stating a preference for the continuation of the Union and explaining why.

But of wilfully belittling Scotland and the Scots, presenting lies, distortions, half-truths and disingenuous scaremongering as 'proof' of our unique and chronic inadequacy to function outwith the protective wing of Mother England.

There are two types of Unionist - Quisling and Dupe.

The Dupe may repeat the mantra prepared by the Quisling, believing it to be true...Where as the Quisling is unencumbered by any such scruples.
144

brownlie,

15/07/2009 18:49:17
124 Yeah1

Sorry for the delay in replying but I've been busy.

I note that you do not admit that your credibility is gone or that you have posted lies on this forum.

You claimed yesterday at 15.41 on the thread regarding the "SNP candidate" that you always use your own name when posting. When I pointed out to you that you had been caught posting under another moniker as well as "Yeah" you asked me to prove it. You posted "I expect your proof to be as non existent as Electric Hermit ..." and further attacked my credibility in another posting.

On the 23/10/08 you were posting as "Hey" as well as "Yeah1" and got your monikers mixed up when you posted a reply, that was supposed to be from "Hey", as "Yeah1". When this was pointed out you replied at 12.50.20 "I never pretended to be not the same person" which was strange as you were posting as, ostensibly, two different individuals. You went on "I made it quite clear that I was both Yeah and Hey" but there is no previous indication of this clarification on that forum.

I would not really have bothered with high-lighting your terminological inexactitudes if it was not for the fact that you, sanctimoniously, accuse others, as well as myself, of not having any credibility.

.
145

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

15/07/2009 18:49:57
#156 Draco Was a Wimp

The SNP does not encompass all that is Scotland, It is a political party with a whole range of non Scotland-specific policies, which you are all free to take, leave or be indifferent to and holes where some missing policies should be.

It just happens to be the largest one that has a foundation stone that is relevant to Scotland.
146

Geomac 1,

Scotland 15/07/2009 19:12:47
#154 Bully wee
What on earth does you question have to do with the point I was making?
However, let me try to answer your question!
Any government should have the country they govern as their prime responsibility. I have yet to see this as being the raison d'etre of the SNP. They are more interested in furthering their own brand - independence! Most of us in Scotland don't see independence as the golden way forward and it's not yet a real possibility.
Surely, the government also has the responsibility for the economy, the health service, schools etc etc. So far these issue have been cast aside in favour of vote cathcing initiatives such as free this and free that - which in the long term is not in the general interest. With a highly favourable budget settlement withing the Uk, the SNP has not taken advantage of this to move us forward relative to the rest of the UK - quite the contrary as every statistic tells us.
147

morris,

edinburgh 15/07/2009 19:23:59
The SNP has never at anytime denied any of you the right to put forward a case in support of the Union.On the contrary we think its a great idea and cant understand why you have not done so with greater efficiency.
Scotland would be penniless after all
We would be thrown out the EU
We would be isolated from Europe
We would have no army navy air force.
We would have border posts.
We would lose the subsidy which England pays us out of the goodness of their heart.
we would need nuclear power .
we would need nuclear dumping
we would have industries closing down and high unemployment.
There is just one thing wrong with the above .
ITS TOTAL NONSENSE and that's being polite!



Thousands of times we have asked about the Union dividend and all we ever hear is the most outrageous scaremongering drivel which other nations politicians laugh at in the European parliament,and if the electorate agree with the SNP in ever increasing numbers,whilst I'm sure the SNP are partly to blame for this,one has to acknowledge the contribution made by people like Jack McConnell Wendy Alexander Margaret Curran Ian Gray Gordon Brown and Alastair Darling who have done more to further the nationalist cause than any SNP member ever could.

Credit given where Credit is due.
You cannot expect a nationalist to agree with a Unionist argument any more than you can expect vice versa.
If you are losing the battle and blaming the SNP for promoting their position whilst you do the same for yours, it seems perfectly fair to me.
May the truth emerge as winner I say.

One things for sure We will definitely establish what the Union dividend is after we leave!So will London!
148

SECESSION NOW,

15/07/2009 19:47:07
157
The Col. of Monte Cristo,
15/07/2009 18:30:14


Very well said Sir, your delivery with the rapier is as deadly as ever, straight through the heart of the unionist eunuchs and trolls, I doubt we will hear much more from them untill after last post, when the night shift is kicked out of their vermin infested scratchers.

Happened to catch a glimpse of that cadavarous fizog of the Murphy fellow on the news as I took my repast, he was whimpering about some tidal power scheme. As usual of the pace and two years behind the SNP.

As to Kilmarnock I cannot see how anyone will change the mind set of this ruthless unemotional Diaego fellow, seems like a bit of a cad if you ask me.

Must go and tend to the horses.
149

Tartan Viking,

15/07/2009 20:20:33
#137. Angus.

Well done for pointing out yet another Lyebour pignose in the trough.

They have by far the most offenders in the expenses scandal. Lining thier own pockets whilst claiming to represent the people. Dispicable. Never ever vote for this mob ever again. Ever again.
150

Obanite,

15/07/2009 20:46:03
As I said at the start, you guys really are a bunch of total bawww bags. You are the guys who sit 10 rows behind me at the football, yelling at the referee and making monkey noises whenever a black player kicks the ball - you bunch of spoons.
151

hoblar,

15/07/2009 20:54:25
The poor desperate unionists love to put down the Scotish Government, but it is obvious to the people that the SNP are by far best placed to represent the Scottish interest, and the whining bull of a Browne or Murphy MWP is not based on what is best for Scotland,rather than hoping to score points.

A forlorn hope when diaego attempts to knee jerk over the 'global' recession as an excuse to eventually have bottling of whisky outside Scotland, we see the sad unionist apologists on here, with new single use monikers telling us all that Government and unions and the people affected should never interfere with business!

What claptrap, Diego will have been milking the Scots gaining all sorts of cash incentives that suit their company, and of course any decent government worth their salt (therefore NOT the Westminster bunch) would seek to fight an enormous blow to jobs and the affect on Kilmarnock.
remeber all those companies that located to Scotland's silicone glen to get free rent incentives for five or ten years and then abandoned their factories and workers when it came to the time to cough up a bit.

Profit before loyalty to any workforce, the view of diego is that the third world can be raped and pillaged for profit.
152

brownlie,

15/07/2009 21:02:18
164 Obanite

No, we're not!!
153

hoblar,

15/07/2009 21:33:49
"You suggestion is more appropriate than the head banging strategy of Swinney et al. However, I'm not sure that bottling could be covered by your proposal. The unique to Scotland argument would stop after manufacturing - on some sort of trade secrets basis - but bottling is another matter altogether - hardly a trade secret or unique??"

I'd rather have John Swinney dealing with this than the misinformed desperados like Murphy and browne who are, by their own quotes, merely blaming the Scottish Government and giving a rather tokenist approach to the impact of these manufacturing losses.

Also, the bottling issue isn't as cut and dry as you might think, for instance, the wax seals on a bottle of whisky and the packaging are important, and there is, as far as I know, only one Scottish company who provides this service.

The whole product, from ingredients to distillery to manufacture of the end product should be controlled as the one off rarity and unique brand whisky is, and that will take a Scottish approach, the exact opposite to the plans od Diego to utilise and exploit third world countires.

That Scottish approach is best undertaken by the Scottish Government, and I bet there are few Scots who would rely on Westminster to oversee such things, except for the rent a gob unionists who appear to be almost gleeful that there are to be devestating job losses in Kilmarnock.

We need to ensure that whisky, (supposedly protected by the union of 1707 although aspects were reneged on by Westminster)is a bomb proof Scottish industry, and let's be honest, the outgoing useless Browne and Murphy are more interested in narrow minded political point scoring than the jobs and losses to scotland's manufacturing industries.

Vote SNP.
154

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 15/07/2009 21:42:54
Was there not some dispute between Distillers and the UK government some years ago that led to Johnnie Walker Red Label being withdrawn from the domestic market?

Did Johnnie Walker and the domestic market not both survive?

Been in a whisky watering down bar in America and the locals never noticed.

Fair does to the politicians prepared to get out of their scratchers to support Kilmarnock - but in the grand scheme of things, is it not better to give Diageo as much rope as it needs?

After all, the real stuff is still here and can be used very effectively in a marketing campaign against Diageo.

Scotch whisky is a premium product and not a cost cutting exercise - eh no, Diageo?
155

Darien,

Panama 15/07/2009 21:46:38
#134 Angus: "Alex Salmond stands head and shoulders above the political pygmies and quislings of New Labour. You are finished, get over yourselves and go now in the name of Scotland"

Excellent studff, well worth repeating, for the benefit of all our nice Scot-Brit-Nat confused non-dual nationality ("I'm British and Scottish") chums.

To the Scottish SNP government the whisky industry is a top priority. To the British/UK government it is not. Obviously Westmidden disnae ken that Whisky is the UK's number 1 food&drink export. It will soon be Scotland's number 1 food&drink export and nothing to do with the UK. And on that basis it merits a top priority billing in Scotland.

Ditto renewables, oil, seafood, tourism, aye even shortbread, scones, tartan, and anything else important to Scotland and her people.

What is not important to the Scottish SNP government is fighting illegal and silly wars, investing in weapons of mass destruction and nuclear power stations, trying still to rule the waves, or attaining supreme levels of economic imcompetence, and generally endeavouring to annoy most other nations on the planet most of the time.

The bust UK rump post Scottish independence is welcome to all of that, and more, and as much as it wants. Good luck to them, they'll need it.
156

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 22:47:26
132
Geomac 1

"You suggestion is more appropriate than the head banging strategy of Swinney et al."

What "strategy" is that?

157

The Tin Man,

15/07/2009 22:58:06
Shame they didn't throw their considerable pygmie weight around to step in and do something about RBS and HBOS last year, instead of saying what great, and wonderfully run companies they were.
158

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 23:01:10
152
Geomac 1

"The important issue is what is best for Scotland and for our collective future - the SNP do not have a monopoly on that - surely!!"

How would we know? The Unionist Alliance (Tory/BLP) show no interest in proposing policies for Scotland. As can be seen from the stuff they have published in their propaganda sheet, The Scotsman, all they have to offer are rather pathetic smears and downright lies.

Don't ever imagine this goes unnoticed.

159

The Tin Man,

15/07/2009 23:03:27
...Although Swinney and Salmond are obviously much more qualified to draw up plans for the whiskey business than anything to do with their previous real-life jobs...
160

Electric Hermit,

15/07/2009 23:13:36
173
The Tin Man

"Although Swinney and Salmond are obviously much more qualified to draw up plans for the whiskey business than anything to do with their previous real-life jobs..."

You obviously don't know what their "previous real-life jobs" were. Both are at least as qualified as Walsh.

And it's "whisky", you ignorant oaf.

161

The Tin Man,

15/07/2009 23:32:54
Unfortunately, the Scot gov and their asociated minions showed a shocking lack of even a vague perception of the problems that the most significant Scottish companies had gotten themselves into over the last couple of years, never mind actually taking any meaningful action.
162

hoblar,

15/07/2009 23:33:08
There is little point in the one man and his dog unionist troll slagging off Swinney and Salmond.

Unlike some desperate unionist who can't spell even whisky, most Scots realise who will represent the Scottish interest, and it is the Scottish Government and Ministers.

The token attitude by the UK government, with pygmy's like murphy and Browne is to merely use the tragic loss of whisky manufacture to play snide misinformed political politics against the SNP while they wait for the equally dreaded tories to take over Westminster.

Scotland must send as many SNP MP's down to westminster and send the message that the labour troughers are not the future, not even in the ballpark.

Same goes for the Scottish elections, where substantial increases on behalf of the SNP will be on the cards, certainly it is unlikely that 7% popular mre ian Gray will be reaping a voting harvest for new labour, now officially the worst Government ever.

So gray constantly supporting the westminster lot, talking them up at Holyrood is at odds with how Scots feel, and it demonstartes the complete denial the labour party has about the inability to manage the economy, their love of nuclear weapons, their unprecedented debt per head for us all, and our kids.

Dump labour completely, give them the message and they will be crawling on their hands and knees to represent scotland over Westminster one day.

that 'building up from the ground up' was what Wendy Alexander declared as she became the labour 'leader' in the Scottish Parliament (actually the leader is gordon brown, but that doesn't matter) unfortunately Alexander failed miserably to do much more than be anti SNP, just like Gray....the priority isn't Scotland, it is defending their dire UK based parties.

Vote SNP as soon as the chance comes, in Livi (why the delay there?) and in Glasgow North (where labour are scared to go to the pols).
163

The Tin Man,

15/07/2009 23:38:03
#176 Pedant

You missed a capital 'G'. Apparently, that makes you an 'oaf'.

Oafs of the Hootsman unieite.
164

The Tin Man,

15/07/2009 23:46:04
Anyway, isn't 900 job-losses worth it in the 'war against drugs'? Try heating-up those empty barrels and consuming the results - you'll go blind. What does the Czar have to say?
165

morris,

edinburgh 15/07/2009 23:48:56
152 Nobody claims to have a monopoly on anything.

The Unionists and Nationalists both put forward their arguments and the Nationalists are slowly but surely winning the day despite the media being politically biased to the point of ridicule.
I am not going to stop promoting what I believe in because it does not fit in with what Unionists believe in.
I accepted Westminster government without question as the wish of the majority and ask only that we the people are consulted on what we want to do.
The right to self determination is ours and we will NOT be denied.
If a majority vote to retain the Union ,then we are set back again, and that's as it should be. We are a democratic party and we accept the views of the people are the only view which counts. We hear claptrap like the SNP wish to destroy the integrity of the UK .No the SNP wish to offer the right to self determination.
What upsets Unionists is the people might decide to go for independence,and they would deny us the same democracy that we are bound to observe.
We owe the Unionists nothing. When their conduct is one of honesty and honour then we will recognise this and treat them accordingly.So far I have seen only complaints that we act without honour and seek to destroy something,when we act with total democratic accountability .As ye sow so shall ye reap.

Nobody is fooled by Unionist claptrap anymore. We will speak and we will be heard and we will accept the verdict of the court of public opinion. You cannot be fairer than that,but the conduct of the Unionists is that of we are above the law and can manipulate the system to manufacture results which are to our liking. That's not democracy and many people recognise Westminster cares about getting these oil revenues,but the people of Scotland are only useful for electing Labour governments when England is undecided and the imposition of Tory government against the wishes of the people of Scotland is a price Scotland must be willing to pay. I sa
166

morris,

edinburgh 15/07/2009 23:52:31
179 continued



I say NO
167

hoblar,

15/07/2009 23:53:37
Quite funny watching a troll look for soemone to chat with...as soon as i read the first sentence i gave up caring whatever mince he is prattling about.

Laughing about 900 job losses is obviously the unionist way.

it isn't my way though, seeing as how i care and wish to shape the future of Scotland in a positive manner.

Most of these troll idiots (all four of them) live in a world where labour are keen to go to the people because they are doing great with the economy, trusted by everone within these Isles and saving the world and are really loved in Scotland.....says it all really that someone lives in that sort of dreamland.
168

The Tin Man,

16/07/2009 00:00:50
#181

Don't be stupid. I know that you never managed to develop a sense of humour, but I was merely wondering how the scot gov managed to take so little notice of Scotland's biggest business foul-up of this century, and last, but are remarkably interested in a successful business?
169

,

16/07/2009 00:15:50
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