Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Capital heads UK's economic table

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 24 June 2008
EDINBURGH has the strongest economy in the UK, outstripping even London, a report has revealed.
People in Scotland's capital produce £10,000 more a year for the economy than the UK average.

Experts believe the city's success is down to its status as a leading centre for the financial services industry – the home of companies such as Standard Life, the Royal Bank of Scotland and Halifax Bank of Scotland.

They also say creation of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government has fuelled the boom.

But the findings have ignited debate over the uncertainty of Scotland's constitutional future and the merits of plans to introduce a 3p local income tax.

Only Berkshire, which relies on London commuter belt wages, scores higher than Edinburgh's £28,432 produced per person.

And if London commuter belt areas are removed, Scotland has three cities in Britain's top ten, with Glasgow seventh and Aberdeen ninth.

Edinburgh beats London because of the UK capital's high house prices.

The figures in the report, by Scottish chartered accountancy firm Campbell Dallas, are based on Office for National Statistics findings for 1995 to 2005, the latest available, so are not taking into account the problems of the recent credit crunch.

David Lonsdale, assistant director of CBI Scotland, said: "This report reflects on the success story Edinburgh has been. But obviously, given recent events with the financial markets, it is important that the UK and Scottish governments help consolidate its status.

"I don't think uncertainty over independence has had much effect, but companies are keeping an eye on what happens."

But Labour warned that the Nationalists' push for independence might undermine Edinburgh and Scotland's success.

Iain Gray, Labour's finance spokesman, said: "These statistics show that Edinburgh has benefited hugely from the 11 years of a UK Labour government. But this growing prosperity is put at risk by the constitutional uncertainty caused by the current SNP government and the misguided plans to introduce a local income tax.

"Edinburgh's seismic growth is under threat if the SNP succeeds in making Scotland the highest-taxed part of the UK."

The report follows the Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) report last week, which showed that if Scotland claimed its 83 per cent of North Sea oil revenues, it would be performing better than the rest of the UK. The Scottish finance secretary, John Swinney, said the Campbell Dallas report underlined GERS's findings.

A spokesman for Mr Swinney said: "While there is no room for complacency, the Scottish economy compares favourably to the UK, with retail sales and house prices holding up well.

"Scottish growth outperformed UK growth in the last two quarters, and our labour market continues to outperform the UK average."

He added that replacing the council tax with a local income tax would mean a tax reduction in Scotland and said businesses had responded positively to the SNP government.

Campaign to drum up support to ensure survival of Tattoo

A CAMPAIGN to safeguard the future of one of Scotland's most prestigious events will get under way today, as it emerged that the Edinburgh Military Tattoo is worth £100 million to the nation's economy.

Business leaders and politicians are being urged to throw their weight behind a move to create a new-look arena for the world-famous event.

They will be warned that the existing spectator stands, which have been used for the event since 1975, need replacing within five years if the event is to survive. The Tattoo announced yesterday it hoped to have new grandstands up and running for 2011.

But a funding package needs to be in place by this autumn to meet a strict timetable for producing detailed plans and securing planning permission.

A Wimbledon-style debenture scheme is expected to be launched within a year to help pay for the £15.5 million arena, and the Tattoo is also hoping to strike a number of deals with major sponsors. Although the City of Edinburgh Council has earmarked £3 million for the project, it is understood that the Scottish Government will be asked to provide the same.

Linda Fabiani, the culture minister, is expected to be among the guests at tonight's event.

The nationwide economic benefit of the Tattoo was estimated at just £30 million four years ago, when a detailed study found that the city's year-round programme of events was worth £184 million to Scotland. However, work commissioned since then by the Tattoo has found that the economic figure for Edinburgh alone this year will be well over £50 million, with the nationwide amount likely to be about £100 million.

The average visitor to the Tattoo is expected to spend at least £300 in the capital during their visit.

More detailed work will be carried out during this year's Tattoo, tickets for which are already sold out, to help to build the case for the replacement of the spectator stands.




Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 23 June 2008 10:02 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scotland's economy
 
1

,

24/06/2008 00:16:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Traquir , Alba,

24/06/2008 00:19:40
Of course Scotland will be doing a lot better
financially when are able to be rid of the
South East Money Pit :

We hear continually how well Scotland does out
of this benevolent Union all the time and in
fact Margret Thatcher The Ruler of Scotland
1979-1990 stated it clearly herself

"we English who are marvellous people are really
very generous to Scotland"
see - tinyurl.com/4lowk7

I thought it would be interesting to see how well
London and the South East are doing out of the Union
over the last few years - rather well it would seem from just a sample of the financial investments :

. £30 billion subway upgrade program
see - tinyurl.com/6sxrgv
. £5.9 billion on one London railway station
see - tinyurl.com/6yheht
. £16 billion For another London rail line
see - tinyurl.com/yphdwl
. £1 billion to upgrade an existing railway station
see - tinyurl.com/5sn8mm
. three quarters of a billion on a Dome !
see - tinyurl.com/6h6ezn
. Followed of course by yet another London regeneration project
£5 billion
see tinyurl.com/5l3jp3
. £6 billion Channel Tunnel Rail Link
see - tinyurl.com/4pg53n
. £2.5 billion -Roads just around the Docklands in London
http://tinyurl.com/55wh6b
. £3.2 billion For Another Tube line
see - tinyurl.com/5qjoao
. £1 billion improvement to an existing Light Rail Line
see - tinyurl.com/6q2424
. £20 billion for a Second Thames flood barrier planned
see - tinyurl.com/5uf79a
. A £4 billion greenhouse tower over Batersea power station
see- tinyurl.com/6ac8hn
. £9.3 billion for the Channel Tunnel -
see tinyurl.com/6s4vsb
. £4.3 billion for a 5th Heathrow Terminal
see - tinyurl.com/2h5hx6
. £5 billion Upgrade other London airport upgrades
see - tinyurl.com/5oe82n
. £10 billion Plans for Heathrow link to Channel tunnel
see - tinyurl.com/568dzq
. £13 billion for a third runway Heathrow runway
see - tinyurl.com/3bgdtt
. £9 billion for Brown's plans to transform Thames Gateway
see - tinyurl.com/4kr3pt

Of cour
3

Traquir , Alba,

24/06/2008 00:19:59
cont.

Of course the Unionistas will tell use what great value
for money Scots get from these investments since we will all benefit from the breadcrumbs.
So just how nutritious and effective are these breadcrumbs ? :

"The average overrun in London was 131.5 per cent, almost four times higher than the national average overrun of 33.7 per cent and
making London the worst performing region in the country."

see - tinyurl.com/4swoxk

As an example what are we going to get from
our "investment" in the London Olympics which
includes £184 million taken from the
Scottish lottery , see - tinyurl.com/6pyd43.
Well the Government conducted their own report
on the matter so need to guess how well we
will do out of it. From the report :
"The implication of this is that for the rest of the
UK (excluding London), London 2012 will have a negative
impact on GDP of c.£4 billion caused by the displacement of resources and activities towards London."
"implies significant negative
effects to the rest of the UK (excluding London)."
see tinyurl.com/6my6gp & tinyurl.com/6l3jeh

The Unionist British Government did not spend any
significant efforts promoting this latest Union
dividend from our collective investments. Interestingly
this report was before many of the massive cost overruns so no doubt the losses outside London will be even greater.

Recent stories from Channel 4 & The Telegraph
exposed the truth :

"London is hugely over-provided for."

"London actually gets much more than its fair share."

"London gets far more spending than it needs"

see - tinyurl.com/5mzvfh & tinyurl.com/6y4z4b


On top of this we of course have a substantial
"investment" being made in London's Palace of Westminster, The House Of Lords, Whitehall & The Scotland Office. I wonder how much these are all costing and Scotland and what return we are getting on the "investment" ?

So exactly who is subsidizing who in this Union ?
4

Traquir , Alba,

24/06/2008 00:22:10
So clearly London & the South East are doing pretty
well out of this Union. So where else is Scotland
getting a Union dividend from our collectively
pulling of resources for the greater good. I fail
to see it from the following sample of recent
great British initiatives or great British follies
as I like to call them :

. At least £8 billion on wars
see - tinyurl.com/5pe3lg
. Up to £110 billion wasted bailing out Northern Rock.
Incidentally prior to the purchase £45 billion
of the good investments were hived off to a
separate investment vehicle
based in Jersey called Granite, which is supposedly a
charity for Down's Syndrome sufferers but does not
actually raise any money for charity.
see - tinyurl.com/26sr5r & tinyurl.com/3agqqa
. A further £6 billion in nuclear research at
England's Adlermaston
see tinyurl.com/5c75ey
. £36.9 Billion on Defence
see - tinyurl.com/fcqfw
This includes (see - tinyurl.com/53mslt )
. Being 6th highest military spender in the world
. Being 4th highest arms exporter including to
countries with bad human rights records
e.g. China, Saudi Arabia, Columbia
. Being one of 5 official nuclear weapons States
in the World
. "investment" in chemical weapons at Porton Down,
which at one point were tested on a Scottish Island
(see tinyurl.com/3vkcll ) Incidentally the Scottish
Island was eventually decontaminated by an
English Company for £500,000 (see tinyurl.com/4fpkhr)
. £1.6 billion on running Embassies and the
BBC World Service
We have already seen how well the BBC is representing
Scotland with their proven "Anglocentricity and
London-centricity" bias so we can only guess
what kind of job the British Embassies are
doing in promoting Scottish interests.
see tinyurl.com/6md9t5 & tinyurl.com/5tmmhd
. £76 billion on a New Trident system.
see - tinyurl.com/3kub7t
. £72 billion on the Nuclear industry
see - tinyurl.com/5nk8ws
. £250 billion squan
5

Traquir , Alba,

24/06/2008 00:22:30
cont.

. £72 billion on the Nuclear industry
see - tinyurl.com/5nk8ws
. £250 billion squandering the opportunity
of North Sea Oil
see - tinyurl.com/4pywt9
. £0 billion Scottish Oil Fund
. £1.3 billion On MI5/MI6 centered in England
Particularly insulting since MI5 was (is ? ) used
to spy and infiltrate the SNP.
see - tinyurl.com/6qdltd
see - tinyurl.com/6lmogj
. £31bn computer bill for new NHS system ( I wonder
how much of that is spent in Scotland ? )
The original budget of £6bn, is now expected
to cost taxpayers over £30bn
see tinyurl.com/53cbmn & tinyurl.com/555kho

How many new Hospitals, new schools, improved social programmes, and real investments for the future
such as an Oil Fund etc could be created instead. Scotland cannot afford to stay in this Union we need to break free at the earliest opportunity.

Saor Alba
6

Nikostratos,

24/06/2008 00:29:19
Traquir all posts



"based on Office for National Statistics findings for 1995 to 2005"

so there goes any pretence of the snp being the cause of this economic miracle or that being in the Union is bad for Scotland.


Oh and by the way Traquir you are getting repetitive and Boring its only the other nat extremist who get of on your post. U know the same one u post every day.....Yawn zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
7

Traquir , Alba,

24/06/2008 00:40:28
6 Nikostratos

Thanks for your interesting and informative post.

Slàinte mhor a h-uile là a chi 's nach fhaic
8

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 00:40:59
6
Niko, there is no pretence, and no economic miracle.
It's been here all the time, artfully camouflaged by the treasury.

Where were you in the eighties Niko? London?
9

What happens when the oil runs out?,

24/06/2008 00:59:10
Traquir,

The whole point of posts on these threads is that they're supposed to be short, to the point and amusing.

Or threatening certain death to "unionists" after the Revolution.

Rubber Bullets.
10

Nikostratos,

24/06/2008 00:59:16
#8 Conan

for some of it........trying to survive


#7

Um I'm sure you dont mean that Traquir


http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/60/60641/folders/32250/989523FatManAtComputer.jpg

Here is this u or is it conan..he he
11

What happens when the oil runs out?,

24/06/2008 01:03:12
#11,

You just don't get it do you, pal?
12

Nikostratos,

24/06/2008 01:07:08
#9

The Oil ain't gonna run out we got enough for the next three thousand years. we are rich! rich! more than the dreams of avarice..its all ours ha ha ha.

went and orderd me merc the other day and when the showroom salesman asked how i was gonna pay...I just flashed me snp membership card and said loudly 'INDEPENDENCE'..everbody cheered hooray!

its being delivered next Monday along wid me helicopter
13

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 01:07:58
9
You like 10cc?

Niko is indeed short and amusing.



14

Traquir , Alba,

24/06/2008 01:22:35

13 Nikostratos,

"The Oil ain't gonna run out we got enough for the next three thousand years. we are rich! rich! more than the dreams of avarice..its all ours ha ha ha."

Are you Mr Ingham or perhaps one of his
lost love children ?

"they smelt money"
"as greedy as sin as they were"
"the only thing that fueled nationalism was
the smell of oil, money and oil"
"it really is the most monstrous piety"

see - tinyurl.com/6ymamn
15

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 01:29:32
16
Ah. Good old Bernard Ingham.

...Not.
16

Nikostratos,

24/06/2008 01:34:27
#16

Bernard ingham low blow there Traquir......gnight time for chucking out some zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
17

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 01:37:45
The Torys in 83,
"they smelt money"
"as greedy as sin as they were"
"the only thing that fueled Thatcherism was
being able to what they wanted...
18

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 01:41:27
...to do. They did.
19

frank mcbride,

lusitania 24/06/2008 01:47:27
Niko.

When will you learn what supporters of Independence have known for a very long time; Scotland is fiscally viable. With or without the Union.

It does the Unionist Propoganda Machine great credit, that they have succeeded for so long but, their deceit has been found out.
20

frank mcbride,

luitania 24/06/2008 02:42:01
Mcpravda.

You do your cause great credit. Your satire, though, is a bit Connollyish.

But, keep it up.

After all, "If it wasn't for our Wellingtons, where would we be?"
21

uncle bulgaria,

24/06/2008 03:39:17
#21 that may or not be true, but this report doesn't provide any evidence of it.

An economic boom was savoured by everyone during 95 - 05.

Edinburgh's success is remarkable but it's not going to sail on through the credit crunch just because it built a financial centre at Tollcross.

And when times do get tough, will we blame the SNP for it...probly.
22

,

24/06/2008 04:04:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
23

,

24/06/2008 04:13:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
24

David MacVicar,

web 24/06/2008 07:02:45
"He added that replacing the council tax with a local income tax would mean a tax reduction in Scotland and said businesses had responded positively to the SNP government."

Local income tax would mean a tax reduction.

Seems that the reality of LIT is starting to sink in.
'Tax Reduction' a phrase completely alien to Labour politicians, which is why they are against LIT in principal.
25

brownlie,

24/06/2008 07:07:03
9 What etc

Quite right - us unionists hate postings that are factual and informative.

We much prefer postings like your own, AM2's and Nikos which are invariably hilarious and open to ridicule!
26

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 24/06/2008 07:34:11
Was this piece about one city? is there oil in Edinburgh? What do they make in that city? Do they have superb manufacturing companies? Or is it money takenform other parts of the UK by life companies? These life companies are dinosaurs, well not quite, the dinosaurs finally became extinct and couldn't pretend they were still alive.
27

The Tin Man,

24/06/2008 07:38:12
Every possible story in this newspaper is turned into a justifitation for independence / a justification for the UK, by us commentors. What a boring, tedious bunch of mindless twits we are. The football threads are less biased.
28

eric,

lothian 24/06/2008 07:58:53
a couple of scraps thrown from london and it goes to your head .
29

Mike Masterton,

London 24/06/2008 08:04:30
Who was it that said "If your tired of London, then your tired of life", in that case I'm asleep.
The best thing in London is the road to the M1 then the M6 to Glasgow !
London used to be great untill it became over crowded & dirty, losing the Routemaster,Royal Mail delivering only once a day (and often late )congestion charge need I go on !
30

danbob,

24/06/2008 08:15:36
Just two days after the the last fairy tale that prompted nearly 700 pointless posts, the Scotsman introduces another one. No doubt another 700 pointless posts will emerge over the next two days on the back of this story. There is a big wide world out there where a lot of things are happening. Things that justify comment. Why does the Scotsman for once try and report on more news worthy stories.
31

The Tin Man,

24/06/2008 08:24:29
The next thing will be a load of posters claiming that Edinburgh's success is due to politicians, as if the government has had anything much to do with it.

Yaaaaaaaaawwwn.....
32

11+failed,

the pans 24/06/2008 08:27:25
Yep, RBS and BOS on their knees pleading with their mainly English shareholders to give them £12bN and £4bn respectively to save them from bankruptcy.
33

11+failed,

the pans 24/06/2008 08:35:43
28 contd
A subsidy of £30,000 for every man woman and child in Edinburgh!
34

JenJen,

WestisBest 24/06/2008 08:56:09
Wait wait now. Some sleight of hand here.

"Capital heads UK's economic table" .. then it says apart from Berkshire. So it doesn't head it.

Then Glasgow and Aberdeen are in the table only if you remove "the London commuter belt". Pardon me, but isn't most of London's wealth driven by the citizens of its enormous commuter belt?

And finally, it seems Edinburgh has a high position not because of economic vigour particularly but because of relatively low house prices compared to London.

This is a completely fabricated story trying to find some kind of Scottish angle which hardly exists.
35

Grant,

Scotland 24/06/2008 09:04:30
#38 Only 7% of RBS shares are owned by private individuals, the overwhelming majority held by insitutions, mainly multinational.
36

Mcsnagpile,

24/06/2008 09:21:31
Once again the Edinburgh accountants are out with the bag of gold. Pieces of eight, Pieces of eight, pieces of eight Auk Auk. % this an % that.
Edinburgh is not the only place in Scotland, ask a Weggie, or a Dundonian.
Something that is certainly missing in the SNP and Scottish Nationalism is brotherhood and heart. Awa back tae yer bag o’ Groats.

37

Billy the Fish,

Glasgow 24/06/2008 09:29:34
Traquir,

You are a nationalist bore.
38

Green,

Dundee 24/06/2008 09:31:48
“The figures in the report, by Scottish chartered accountancy firm Campbell Dallas, are based on Office for National Statistics findings for 1995 to 2005, the latest available, so are not taking into account the problems of the recent credit crunch.

David Lonsdale, assistant director of CBI Scotland, said: "This report reflects on the success story Edinburgh has been.”

Yeah right in other words its history.

Skewing the British economy to be based on financial services products was always a bad idea, showing how dominated the political process is by the city of London and the chickens have come home to roost.

FT yesterday..
Goldman wielding axe, 'the pace of job losses in the investment banking services industry set to accelerate over the summer with world’s leading co. Goldman Sachs starting to cut too

Only 1 housebuyer for every 15 houses on the market`

Being a mini me city of London is not going to work.
39

Alan B,

24/06/2008 09:52:50
#47 Green

What exactly do u suggest then?

Modern economies have moved into a post industrial age. With more and more people employed in service industries and a relative decline of manufacturing. The same happened years ago with the decline of people working in agriculture with the industrial age.

With globalisation many manufactured goods are produced in low cost areas. While there will always be high value areas of manufacturing, the main job markets in the western economies will be in service areas. Even in manufacturing it will be valued added areas, design etc and not the actual manufacturing. Financial services are a key part of the services industry. And also jobs servicing the financial sector too.

So how would u propose u have a balanced economy producing jobs in high wage, high skilled areas? How many jobs in the financial sector are too much, if u feel it is unbalanced?
40

11+failed,

the pans 24/06/2008 09:53:26
43 Grant
The money is raised on the London Stock Exchange. 56% of RBS institutional shareholdings are with UK domiciled institutions.
41

HughB,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 09:56:42
When talking about the tatoo being worth £100 million to the nations economy, which nation are we talking about here. I assume westminster, because they get all the tax, vat, insurance tax, tax on taxis, tax on hired cars, tax on festival events, tax on hotel stays, tax on the wee dram the tourists might have while they stay here.

And then anything that's left over will disappear into the international hotel chains or shop chains coffers.

So what exactly is left for the THIS nation Scotland?

Not a lot. Not a lot.
42

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 24/06/2008 09:59:26
#1 - and so the ugly head of nationalism grows ever bigger. Stop kidding on this has anything whatsoever to do with one year of a SNP led adminstration cause we ain't that thick, just as # 6 Nikostratos points out!

In reality this has been achieved in a large part due to the stability of having a relatively stable economy for the past 10 years. Things would be even better if we adopted and became an integral part of the euro zone and eventually one day that will become a reality once the luddites have been exposed. So forget these Scottish pound notes with wee fat Eck Salmons fizzog on it and lend even greater credibilty to the financial sector in Scotland by embracing the union instead of trying to destroy it all the time.

43

Alan B,

24/06/2008 10:03:58
#Liberal for life

Are u daft. We would have a much better chance of joining the euro if scotland was not attached to the uk. England simply will not join for political reasons. Bot the lib dems and labour in scotland are supportive of the euro but will not contemplate scotland joining unless england do.

The european union has simply made the uk union irrelevant. There is no point in joining one union to allow that union to represent ur interests in another union. Specially when it is not represented within that union well.

Get out the uk union and play a full role in the european union and scotland will be better of for it.
44

DaveK,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 10:06:50
Edinburgh is only doing well because there are so many English up here flashing the cash. That will all change come the revolution, can't wait for King Alex to get his way. Is it true that if we vote for the SNP we get 70 virgins in heaven, or is that the al qaeda pension plan?
45

Observing person,

here 24/06/2008 10:12:04
this story has obviously turned a lot of readers' faces pure dead green this morning, edinburgh is a hugely successful city and no amount of back stabbing and jealousy especially from #34 eric, who goes by the name of jim in the herald will stop it
46

The Strategist,

24/06/2008 10:46:25
I'm an SNP supporter but the idea that Edinburgh has the strongest economy in the UK and outstrips London is completely risible.

This strikes me as some crud that's been thought up by the new boy at Scottish Financial Enterprise. As I've said before RBS, HBOS and the others may well employ a lot of people in Scotland but in terms of actually supporting the Scottish economy and contributing to their real growth then they are all a complete waste of space.
47

Southsider71,

East Renfrewshire, Glasgow 24/06/2008 10:50:06
#54 Why would anyone be jealous ? as for Eric, he is no worse than some of the other posters on here...I find your comment about people being green with envy very strange.
48

Silence of the Yams,

24/06/2008 11:15:10
If only we made the same wages as Londoner's!! 25/30 per hour is common in the London financial sector. We're downtrodden by sh!tty wages!
49

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 11:30:50
Yet more proof that the "big bad union" is holding Scotland back........oh wait.
50

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 11:37:06
1-??. Does anyone ever bother checking this geek's links?

Yesterday, he tried to claim that Euro shipbuilding was growing strongly and quoted a website stating: "The market is on the up..."

Follow his tinyurl link and you got a report on the 'welding consumables' market!
51

Jock ex 45Cdo RM,

THORNHILL 24/06/2008 11:37:45
Traquir Alba-- are you by any chance a nighshift worker?
Great health to you too my Friend.
According to the English, Scotland will collapse once we rid the shackles.
There is a parallel with Norway-Sweden and that took a war to separate them.
52

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 11:39:11
64/65. The UK is also the third largest shareholder in the rest of the world's companies, after the US and Japan.

Your point?
53

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 11:45:51
68 [contd] The UK has the third largest number of companies in the 'Forbes 2000' list of the world's largest companies, as in the similar 'FT Global 500' list.

Indeed, the UK has more companies in these lists than France and Germany combined.

It's so unlike the nationalists to only tell a fraction of the whole story!

Mind you, as we know from the SNP's GERS, they are naught but a bunch of liars anyway.
54

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 11:50:18
68/69 The point of your posts in relation to Edinburgh having a more productive economy than London per head escapes me.
55

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 11:53:04
3. "So exactly who is subsidizing who in this Union "

1. It's 'subsidiSing'.

2. In the recently produced GERS, signed off by both Salmond and Swinney, Scotland received a subsidy of £10.2bn from the rest of the UK in 2006/07.

That's a THIRD of Holyrood's budget in "subsidy".

3. Even if you calculate in oil, the SNP still needed £2.7bn, 10% of their total budget.

So in answer to your question, the UK is "subsidising" Scotland to the tune of several billion a year.

Unless you do some 'Salmond maths' and count all the taxes but ignore £4bn in spending.....then you get a 'surplus'!
56

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 11:53:51
72. Spook, indeed, I could see no point at all in Highland's ramblings.

He also refers to "the SNP's GERS" when I think he means the GERs figures compiled by non-party political civil servants which show Scotland in surplus, subsidising the rest of the UK which is in massive deficit.
57

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 11:55:14
73. Highland - why do you lie so blatantly? The GERs figure showed a current account surplus for Scotland, and a defecit for the rest of the UK, when only 83% of oil revenues are included.
58

DaveK,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 11:56:35
Why is it that the vast majority of Nats use every article as a way of deriding the UK and tacitly the very country they are from. If you hate it so much, put your money where you mouth is and leave, if the concept of the union makes your skin crawl there are plenty of airports with flights out of this opressed nation - it worked for Sean Connery thankfully!
59

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 11:56:36
74. Salmond?

LOL!
60

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 11:59:24
77. The GERs figured were compiled and released by civil servants, and signed of by the government's chief economist. As they show a current account surplus for Scotland of £600 when only 83% of oil revenue is included, while the UK as a whole has a current account deficit of billions, it seems to undermine your case. Sad when a good piece of sneering anti-Scottish polemic is ruined by reality..
61

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 24/06/2008 11:59:42
TARQUIR from Alba has to be one of the most tiresome, repetitive, boring, derivative posters on these threads.

He just throws out reams of statistics and expects us to be impressed. Well, I am NOT.

Anybody can extrapolate stats and post them and try to "appear" educated.

He really needs to get out more in society and get some fresh airand perhaps his sanity will return.
62

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 12:00:00
79. £milliom
63

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 12:00:01
78. So you are just going to conveniently ignore £4bn in spending so you can claim a £837m 'surplus'?

How pathetically desperate.
64

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 12:01:57
And Ayrshire Scot is all over the place.

Calm down, you're humiliating yourself.

Again.
65

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 12:01:59
82. Including the borrowing for capital projects, Scotland still shows a surplus at current oil pricing of £5 billion. Even including borrowing and using oil pricing at £65/b and only a 83% attribution of revenues, Scotland's position is far healthier than the UK, which has a deficit of £43 billion...
66

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 12:03:44
85. No, it doesn't.

You are a liar.
67

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 12:03:47
76. No thanks, we will stay and seek to change our country.
68

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 12:05:24
86. Well, according to GERS, the Grant Thornton analysis, the Times and the Herald, it is you who is incorrect:
Oil 'would make independent Scotland rich' - Times OnlineMaurice Fitzpatrick, an accountant with Grant Thornton, who has examined the economics of an independent Scotland for the past decade, said: “There is no ...
business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article3954031.ece


Statistics show Scotland in surplus"Indeed, as North Sea oil revenues soar, City accountancy firm Grant Thornton estimate that Scotland's surplus would now stand at some £4.4 billlion. ...
www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2008/06/20103720 - 21k -
69

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 12:07:43
86... Oil 'would create budget surplus'

The SNP believes the figures back the economic case for independence
Scotland would be in budget surplus to the tune of more than £800m with a "geographical share" of North Sea revenues, government figures suggest.

However, if the country was to receive its per capita share of North Sea revenues in line with the rest of the UK, it would have a deficit of £6bn.


The figures are contained in the Government Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland (Gers) report.

The report compares government spending with the amount of money raised.

Experts from Aberdeen University said a geographical share of North Sea oil revenues would give Scotland 83% of the revenues.

That would give the country a budget surplus of £837m (0.7% of GDP) in 2006/07 - compared with a UK deficit of £4.3bn.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7465840.stm
70

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 12:08:33
89. Scotland will be in surplus NOW...and only because oil prices are so high.

Take out oil and the deficit is a staggering £10bn a year, a third of public spending. A THIRD.

Scotland has been in deficit since 1985.
71

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 12:10:36
90. You really need to check your cut&pastes....

"However, if the country was to receive its per capita share of North Sea revenues in line with the rest of the UK, it would have a DEFICIT of £6bn."
72

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 12:10:48
92. Highland - good, so you admit Scotland is in surplus. Why would we take out oil? Is it normal when calculating public finance to just remove revenue elements?

Now, you will see from the Times, BBC and GERs links I provided that Scotlands surplus ranges from £830 million to c £5 billion depending on range of oil revenue estimates.
73

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 12:11:24
Would you two kids like a lifejacket?
74

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 12:11:32
93. YEs, that would assume only c 8% of oil revenue. The article then states "Experts from Aberdeen University said a geographical share of North Sea oil revenues would give Scotland 83% of the revenues.

That would give the country a budget surplus of £837m (0.7% of GDP) in 2006/07 - compared with a UK deficit of £4.3bn.
75

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 12:12:16
91. LOL. Poor the Highland, he does get worked up and sound more shrill and sneery when he does. Bless
76

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 12:13:49
94. "Is it normal when calculating public finance to just remove revenue elements?"

Salmond obviously thought so when he removed £4bn in spending to find his £800m 'surplus'.

And where did you get this "£5bn surplus" from again?
77

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 12:15:30
96. Are you struggling with your reading?

The £837m 'surplus' only appears if you ignore £4bn in spending.

Can you not grasp that? I will happily repeat it if you want?

The £837m 'surplus' only appears if you ignore £4bn in spending.

See?

The £837m 'surplus' only appears if you ignore £4bn in spending.

There, I did it again.

The £837m 'surplus' only appears if you ignore £4bn in spending.

Can't stop now.....

The £837m 'surplus' only appears if you ignore £4bn in spending.
78

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 24/06/2008 12:15:58
88 The spook in Leith

Your post just proves that there is a fool born every day. I suppose the fumes of Leith have affected your judgment and sanity.
79

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 12:15:58
98. No, the GERs figures show a current account surplus. ANd the £5 billion surplus comes from the Grant Thornton analysis - here are some links again, perhaps you want to address the points made? As you have already conceded Scotland is in surplus perhaps you want to address the detail?

The report compares government spending with the amount of money raised.

Oil 'would make independent Scotland rich' - Times OnlineMaurice Fitzpatrick, an accountant with Grant Thornton, who has examined the economics of an independent Scotland for the past decade, said: “There is no ...
business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article3954031.ece
----
Statistics show Scotland in surplus"Indeed, as North Sea oil revenues soar, City accountancy firm Grant Thornton estimate that Scotland's surplus would now stand at some £4.4 billlion. ...
www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2008/06/20103720 - 21k -
-----------
Experts from Aberdeen University said a geographical share of North Sea oil revenues would give Scotland 83% of the revenues.

That would give the country a budget surplus of £837m (0.7% of GDP) in 2006/07 - compared with a UK deficit of £4.3bn.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7465840.stm
80

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 12:17:01
100 - Tim, I think post 88 just quotes a financial times article on the fact Britain is now exceeding EU rules on borrowing...
81

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 12:19:04
103. Revenues from oil are c. £250 billion to date, at current values...
82

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 12:19:12
101. "That would give the country a budget surplus of £837m (0.7% of GDP) in 2006/07 "

My God, you are stupid!

Look, I'll explain your glaring error:

The £837m 'surplus' only appears if you ignore £4bn in spending.

Once more?

The £837m 'surplus' only appears if you ignore £4bn in spending.

Again?

The £837m 'surplus' only appears if you ignore £4bn in spending.
83

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 12:20:31
103. Spook, indeed, he does seem to get riled and adopts a very abusive sneery tone, which can only undermine his "case". I note that when presented with links, for example the Times/ Grant Thornton article or the BBC link, he just ignores the data and like a wee child says "you are a liar" - he comes across as a tad pathetic.
84

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 12:22:22
106. Even including the borrowing for capital projects, using current oil prices gives a surplus of c £5 billion (see Grant Thornton analysis I have provided you with links for)

Inlcuding the same borrowing for capital projects would give the UK a £43 billion deficit - either way Scotland's position is alot stronger..
85

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 12:22:31
107.
Nationalist makes ridiculous claim.
Nationalist is quickly proven wrong.
Nationalist gets abusive.

(And no, "liar" is not abuse but an observation.)
86

pwd,

Borders 24/06/2008 12:23:22
This article, the facts behind it and the statistics in post 1 (Traquir), are a resounding vindication of what everyone with any brains knew anyway - the UK is a worthy, honourable and successful institution which has been mutually beneficial for all its constituent parts. Scotland has done and will continue to do well as part of this great success story.
87

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 12:24:03
106. Anyway Highland, as you are clearly getting over-excited and repeating even within your posts, and incapabale of reading the links, let me just say I am delighted you agree Scotland is in surplus, and I note your delight that Edinburgh is more economically productive per head than London.
88

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 12:25:07
109. Highland - thanks for your thoughts on the Times link to the Grant Thornton analysis showing a £4.4bn Scottish surplus
89

Nikostratos,

24/06/2008 12:30:47
#106 Highland Mighty

Does that mean i won't get me merc and me helicopter i ordered on me snp full membership card........
Not sure i like you at all Highland mighty anyway reckon u are a wrong un as spook and Ayrshire are sticking it to you.good


here's me merc

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/12/620311_1106791_4992_3328_07c2384_opt.jpg
90

,

24/06/2008 12:33:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
91

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 12:35:22
115. At your age Niko, we would maybe consider getting you a motorised zimmer?

114. Spook, good idea, but I think square sausage is better for a roll.
92

The wee Thread worm,

24/06/2008 12:51:02
Ooch now then now then children, whats all this shouting about? That poor wee spook in leith just posted an innocent little post then world war 3 breaks out. Niw sshh, its all very quiet up hear in Highland Mightys rectum.
93

Alan B,

24/06/2008 12:51:05
Interesting article in the Sunday Herald about the state of scottish finances.

Economic analysis by Jim and Margaret Cuthbert shows that GERS have been misrepresenting scottish finances.

"So what has changed in the way Gers has been produced this year? A great deal: affecting quality, presentation and content. For example, HM Treasury data, which is the basic source for the expenditure figures in Gers, and which until recently was a black box to all outside the Treasury, has been vetted thoroughly by statisticians in Scotland, and they have shown themselves willing to override the Treasury's figures where these are clearly wrong. Specific mistakes have been corrected, including the treatment of Scottish Water, nuclear decommissioning and the depreciation of public assets, such as roads."

"In the past, all attention was focused on one figure, referred to as Scotland's borrowing requirement. This was the difference between total government expenditure and total government revenues. In fact, the UK used a different indicator, known as the current deficit. The new Gers follows the UK practice."

u could not make this up.

"It is important not to misinterpret the Gers figures. In particular, they do not tell us what the finances of an independent Scotland would look like."

http://www.sundayherald.com/business/businessnews/display.var.2356681.0.opening_up_the_books_on_the_true_state_of_scottish_finances.php

94

Silence of the Yams,

24/06/2008 12:51:49
This illegal "Union2 is well past its sell by date.
95

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 12:54:18
Oh yes, I'm well and truly 'panned'.

So the nat response to GERS, signed off by Salmond and Swinney (as all SG accounts are signed off by FM and Finance), is to ignore £4bn in spending to find that £800m 'surplus'...

...and then to ignore 23 years of deficits (plus also the years pre-1980), ALL covered by that nasty nasty UK, to just say we are NOW in surplus, albeit only because oil prices are freakishly high.

Pretty silly.

Anyway, back to your surreal shrill cries of 'victory'....
96

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 12:57:40
120. Back to that old stalwart of whining that "GERS is flawed", eh!
97

The wee Thread worm,

24/06/2008 12:58:34
122

sshh, im trying to wriggle back up your bottom now calm down. Have you poohed today because not only are you talking shi! but there's a load of it in hear.
98

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 12:59:23
124. The 'nationalists', ladies and gents!
99

Busymale,

24/06/2008 13:00:14
Sad to see so many negative posts from Unionists. As soon as we get news of our successes they jump on a band wagon to pour cold water over everything. Them and people like them are the reason Scotland never took control for its own destiny centuries ago.

Cowards and Quislings all of them! They'd sell their granny for 10p!
100

Busymale,

24/06/2008 13:00:18
Sad to see so many negative posts from Unionists. As soon as we get news of our successes they jump on a band wagon to pour cold water over everything. Them and people like them are the reason Scotland never took control for its own destiny centuries ago.

Cowards and Quislings all of them! They'd sell their granny for 10p!
101

Alan B,

24/06/2008 13:01:37
#Highland Mighty

Your arguments about high deficits in scotland are hardly good arguments for the union. While u may be blinded to it, showing scotland having huge deficits shows the poor economic performance of scotland within the union.

The best way to improve the tax take of a country is to improve economic growth. Growth in scotland has been poor for the last 30yrs avg less than 2%. We have grown less than the uk as a whole and less than the small western european countries known as the arc of prosperity.

It is also interesting to note that these small countries are richer than the uk per head, aswell as the other larger european countries.

The problem we have, is we have struck gold in oil but have been unable to use that money to transform the scottish economy. It is simply mad to fritter that oil money away so that when it has gone we will have little to show for it.


102

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 13:02:10
127. Nats: "75% of Scotland are cowards and quislings."

Charming.
103

Arfur,

24/06/2008 13:03:33
73 Highland Mighty - wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong WRONG.

You have had numerous links to the evidence that Scotland subsidises England, you've had accountants, economic experts, you've had this unionist paper report it you've even had Labour party members admit it for goodness sake.

Even after all that you spout this garbage which quite frankly makes you the thickest person I have ever encountered.

Sorry - make that second thickest, forgot about Mount Kimba.
104

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 13:04:22
129. See 73.
105

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 13:05:06
132. See 73.
106

,

24/06/2008 13:06:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
107

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 13:07:04
132. Also see 122.

Too bored to repeat myself for the afternoon shift at SNP Central.
108

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 13:08:05
135. See 109.
109

Alan B,

24/06/2008 13:09:58
#123 Highland Mighty

Fistly i have never mentioned GERS before. However many other posters have.

I just find it interesting that there view has been vindicated. Again we have seen labour misreprenting things for their own political ends.

I am surprised that u think it is ok to just dismiss political lies when it has been independently demonstated. Remember the treasurey have accepted that there figures were wrong. It is not like they are arguing over it.

It is also surprising that they were measuring scottish figures differently.

As member of the public we should expect honesty from government and then we can make up our mind based on our interpretation of the facts.

It is also interesting that labour think there case is so weak that they have to deliberately mislead.
110

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 13:10:33
This would all be very funny (instead of just mildly amusing) if these nationalist-types weren't also our next generation.

We have god-awful politicans in both Westminster and Holyrood, be they Labour or SNP and we have idiots for children.

Scotland is doomed.
111

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 13:11:30
138. Doomed, I say.
112

Alan B,

24/06/2008 13:12:15
#133 Highland Mighty

"129. See 73"

Post 73 has nothing to do with what i posted in 129.
113

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 13:12:21
132 Arfur
How can you subsidise with a deficit (either £2.7bn or 10.2bn)? This is surely a new concept in economics.
114

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 13:14:11
124. LOL

Highland - thanks again for your thoughts on the Grant Thornton analysis showing a £4.4 bn Scottish surplus, inclduing all spending...
115

,

24/06/2008 13:14:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
116

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 13:14:28
141. Sigh.

"we have struck gold in oil but have been unable to use that money to transform the scottish economy"

Holyrood receives more in 'subsidy' than is raised in our share of oil taxes.
117

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 13:14:59
139 "Scotland is doomed" - and their we have the Unionist case encapsulated.
118

,

24/06/2008 13:16:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
119

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 13:16:20
145 - Thanks for your thoughts on the Grant Thornton analysis showing a £4.4 bn Scottish surplus
120

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 13:16:45
143. O truly challenged one...

You cannot ignore DECADES of deficits but acknowledge just ONE year of surplus.

Are you related to Swinney perhaps? Your...er, unique grasp of economics is freakishly similar to his.
121

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 13:16:54
147. Me too, but his toffee can be hit or miss
122

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 13:17:36
149 - Ah, you again concede a Scottish surplus. Well done.
123

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 13:19:02
151. Sorry, which post are you replying to again?
124

Alan B,

24/06/2008 13:21:25
#149 Highland Mighty

"You cannot ignore DECADES of deficits but acknowledge just ONE year of surplus."

We have been through that before. A snp question to the tory treasury in mid 90s showed that scotland had subsidised the rest of the uk to the tune of £27bn over a period of about 18yrs.

That is hardly decades of deficits. I use this figure as it was the tory treasury that produced them.

"Alex Salmond's comments refer to a written answer from the Treasury in the LAST (Tory) government which estimated, taking account of oil revenues, that there had been a net outflow of £27 billion from Scotland to London within a specified period. "

http://www.bbc.co.uk/politics97/forum/answers.shtml

"Mr. Salmond: I commiserate with the Secretary of State on the demise of his argument that Scotland is a subsidised nation. Has not the admission by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury on 13 January that Scotland has generated an absolute surplus of £27 billion since 1979 blown a black hole in the Secretary of State's argument"

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199697/cmhansrd/vo970205/debtext/70205-22.htm


125

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 13:22:43
153. Oh dear, Highland will be forced, as usual, to ignore the link and facts, in this case the UK parliament, as he ignores the Times and BBC links to the GT analysis showing an absolute surplus of £4.4 bn
126

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 13:23:08
There is a clear pattern among the nationalists:

Salmond ignores a whopping £4bn of spending but acknowledges all taxes to get a £800m 'surplus'.

Nationalists ignore DECADES of deficits but acknowledge just ONE year of surplus to....well, 'prove' some point.
127

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 13:23:27
152. Highland - i was noting in your post above you concede Scotland is in suprlus.
128

Alan B,

24/06/2008 13:23:49
#Highland Mighty

U want scotland to remain in the union. Fair enough. Problem is the economic truth is, while there are no certainies in this world, scotland would have performed better outside the constraints of the union.

As such u would be better being honest saying scotland would probably be richer outside the union but u personally would rather remain inside the union for personal reasons.
129

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 13:25:03
153. All the surpluses in that period came from 1980-1984. Every other year was a deficit.

Feel free to look it up.

130

,

24/06/2008 13:26:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
131

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 13:27:39
156. Oh, the one where I said,

"You cannot ignore DECADES of deficits but acknowledge just ONE year of surplus."

That one? Even though there are no actual records to prove this 'surplus', just one FORECAST from one source?

Wow. Such weighty evidence.

Seriously. I mean....wow. Can't say anything more.
132

Alan B,

24/06/2008 13:27:48
#158 Highland Mighty

So admit that over a 20 yrs period where u were saying we had deficits in total we actually had a massive surplus.

As such "we have struck gold in oil but have been unable to use that money to transform the scottish economy" stands and i look forward to ur apology.
133

,

24/06/2008 13:29:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
134

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 13:30:22
151 Ayrshire Scot
The Grant Thornton analysis is merely a projection based on the current price of oil remainining at $135 per barrel. It also unclear the extent to which it has taken into account the decrease in production and the rising costs. It is therfore a guess - not a firm analysis.
If you do a similar analysis for each of the last 15 years you will see that the the deficit in Scotland has always been above the quoted 83% of oil/gas revenues. (See BERR statistics)
All grant Thornton have done is to say that for one year (with several assumptions) there may be a surplus but with North sea oil production falling and costs rising it remains to be seen if this is a typical situation.
135

,

24/06/2008 13:30:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
136

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 13:33:28
159. Ah, the good old McCrone report.

Written when oil prices were also in an unnatural spike and rising.

Prices dropped considerably soon afterwards, and any forecasts on income in that report were no longer accurate.

It's is so strange how the nats, again and once more, don't look into matters thoroughly.
137

,

24/06/2008 13:35:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
138

Alan B,

24/06/2008 13:38:29
#Bird of Prey, Will watch what i say.

What was also interesting around the time of the Mcrone report was what senior uk labour ministers and civil servants were reported to have said, in regard to oil and scotland. This also came out with the freedom of information.

Tony Benn the labour minister of industry at the time said that scotland needed england to manage oil for them. We would apparently only have squandered it.


139

,

24/06/2008 13:40:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
140

Alan B,

24/06/2008 13:41:32
#Highland Mighty

U are misunderstanding one of the most important aspects of the Mcrone report.

It was labours own report, saying how in their view scotland would be economically rich. While the uk was virtually bankrupt in the 70s. (Oil helped save the uk which was in economic meltdown).

The issue is, labour thought scotland would be soooo rich, but publicly said that it would be an ecnomic disaster to be independent. ie they lied.

141

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 13:41:47
166. Really. How interesting. One rant about comparable GDP's is a 'panning', is it?

Go and tell your mum what you have just done, she'll be so proud.

(Jeez, what a tool!)
142

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 13:44:02
153/161 Alan B
This is a gross distortion of the situation based on a few years including the mid eighties when revenues were high. The overall picture is substantially different.
Look at the global picture. Total UK oil and gas revenues since their inception (1964/65) amount to approx. £140bn. This has been adjusted by using a deflator to give a figure if approx £250bn in real terms. (ie today's prices) You can work out an average : 250bn over 43 years = 5.8bn. So the average revenue in todays prices has been £5.8bn per annum. But we can see that the deficit in Scotland at todays prices is £10.2bn So all revenues (including those from gas fields off the coast of England) don't go close to covering the Scottish deficit.
143

,

24/06/2008 13:44:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
144

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 13:47:52
169 Alan B
McCrone was a civil servant not part of the Labour govt. His analysis was wrong as he assumed a continuing high price of oil and failed to predict the collapse of the oil price in the late eighties.
145

Alan B,

24/06/2008 13:54:30
#Ugly George

McCrone was an economic report for the labour government. They did not publish it. It only came out a few yrs ago because of the freedom of information act.

If labour get civil servents to create an ecnomic report for them. That report then says scotland predicts scotland we be very rich on the back of it. That party then public tells us that scotland will be in economic meltdown if we go independent. What are they doing? Lying.

I heard Brian Wilson (labour minister) afew yrs ago on tv defending the Mcrone report. Saying that scotland all knew we would be wealthier out the union but we wanted to stay with the union anyway. That scotland realised it would be unfair to walk away with the oil.

The problem with that was labour did not say that at the time. They repeatedly lied. They privately think one thing and then public say the opposite.

(I think u should go back and review some of the things said about oil and scotland by senior uk officials.)

146

Alan B,

24/06/2008 14:02:57
Some of the things said by senior englsih political figures/civil servents in regard to scottish oil.

"The explanations tumble not only out of the Scottish Office but from down here under the 30-year rule. Sir Kenneth Berrill, then head of the central policy review staff for Harold Wilson, said that it would be hard to fight Scotland's economic case for independence because

"on fairly reasonable assumptions about the profits to be made from North Sea oil, Scotland could go it alone quite comfortably".

An unnamed civil servant stated:

"Progress towards devolution should be delayed for as long as possible"

in case the Parliament got its hands on oil revenues. Another civil servant stated:

"Information Division has sought for some time in briefing to undermine SNP claims to North Sea Oil... indeed it is part of my standard sales patter."

That civil servant was Mr. Bernard Ingham, who went from spinning oil to spinning Thatcher."
147

Alan B,

24/06/2008 14:10:25
#Ugly George

The argument is really not about oil but the belief that scotland could have used oil revenues the way the uk did to transform the south of england.

Scotland has performed poorly economically in absolute terms over the last 30yrs and relatively compared to england and the other small european countries.

If scotland had a fast economic growth rate and was doing well the argument would be irrelevant. But we do not.

U either believe that scotland cannot do better, that we are somehow so bad that it is inevitable that other small countries perform so much better.

Or u believe that scotland can do better and we should make structural changes necessary to improve our economy.

Does anyone genuinely believe the tories will do anything to transform scotlands growth rate if they get into power. Why has brown the most power economic person in the uk over the last decade run from the challenge of transforming scotland economically.

With oil quite simply the pain of the 70s and 80s and slow growth of the 90s would have been sooo much less likely.
148

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 14:19:54
174/175 Alan B
I am aware of the situation regrding McCrone but you have not addressed thepoint that his projection turned out to be wrong. The civil servant you quoted illustrates the point that it was based on "assumptions". These comments and reports were made in the seventies against the background of high oil prices enforced by OPEC but this situation did not last. The price of oil collapsed to as little as $10 per barrel at one stage and the "assumptions" proved to be incorrect. McCrone was making a projection - not a detailed analysis - a projection that was inaccurate. It is therefore not really appropriate to quote him. He is not some kind of gospel.

The facts and figures are as I mentioned them in post 171. The argument that, through North Sea oil, Scotland has subsidised the rest of the UK was only valid for one or two years in the early/mid eighties. Any argument that this has been a consistent situation since the advent of North Sea oil and gas can be destroyed by anybody with a basic level of numeracy.
149

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 24/06/2008 14:26:43
#104 spook in Leith

At least I have the courtesy to read your posts and understand them even if I disagree with them.

And what exactly is "the spirit of the debate" according to you?

#107 Ayrshire Scot

Where and when, exactly, have I called someone a "liar"?

YOU should get your facts straight, boyo.

And spook in Leith, I post early because I arise at 4:00 a.m. to walk my gorgeous black Labrador Retriever, as if it is any of your business.

Boy, some of you Scots are gossipy old ladies and make mountains out of molehills.

And I do have the intelligence to debate but why waste it on some posters who are beyond reason and too self-opinionated to accept the views of others.
150

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 14:30:39
176 Alan B
I agree that the argument should be about economic growth but it would be interesting to speculate what Scotland would have done if it had control over oil revenues in the seventies and eighties. Would there have been a measures to stimulate economic growth or would there have been an attempt to prop up and susidise failing industries such as steel and shipbuilding. Bearing in mind the political climate at the time I feel that it may have been the latter.

The other thing about economic growth in Scotland is that there appears to be a cultural as much as political problem. Many analysts have bemoaned the relative low rate of business start ups in Scotland compared to other areas and many feel that too many of the most talented go into Scotland's large public sector rather than into wealth creating occupations. The comparatively low rate of economic growth compared to areas such as the South East of England could be as much a factor of this rather than being a result of government policies.
151

Alan B,

24/06/2008 14:39:16
#Ugly George

"I am aware of the situation regrding McCrone "

Well u seem to gloss over the importance if it and have tried to distance the government from it. The uk government at the time lied to us the scottish public in order to persuade us to remain in the union.

Both labour and the tories wanted oil to bail out england, because the uk as a whole was in a complete mess.

And then on Sunday the herald has another story of labour misleading with GERS. Do u honestly think these ERRORs would have come to light if labour were still in power in SP.

I have already addressed the issue regarding deficits in my post regarding the £27billion surplus scotland over the period of 18yrs. A such if we had gone independent in the late 70s (before that was before my time so cannot comment), we would have been a richer country. We would have coped much better with the economic disasters of the 80s etc.

I think u are under estimating the importance of 27billion to the scottish economy. At 90s prices when the figure pertained to that would have been somewhere near 10p in the £1 of scottish income tax each yr during that period. Remember total income tax is 22-25p in the pound.

The current figures produced show a surplus. Look now at the Grant Thorton report it shows something like a 4.4 billion surplus.

However oil is not my argument. My argument as i said before is economic performance. For some reason unionist seem to think if they show scotland has performed badly within the union then that is an argument to stay with what we have got.

While i have addressed the issue u raised u have not address the lies, the poor economic performance within the union.


152

Alan B,

24/06/2008 14:43:19
#179 Ugly George

I agree much more with ur sentiments here.

Scotland voting for a hard left government in the 70s and 80s could have blown it.

Personally i think it depends on timing.

Scotland would have been forsed to live within its means. As such if it had been independent in the 60s then it may not have been able to sustain such bloated industries into the 70s/80s.

Having said that we must look forward.

How can we now turn our economic performance round?

Can we do it within the union?

Should we devolved economic powers to the sp?

Should we join the euro?

Should we have control over competition policy?

Should we have control over taxation?
153

Alan B,

24/06/2008 14:51:06
#Ugly George

"The comparatively low rate of economic growth compared to areas such as the South East of England could be as much a factor of this rather than being a result of government policies. "

The issue is whether governments can change the culture.

There are alot of factors in people starting a business. Taxation can help but alot of it depends on the wider economy.

It is much easier to start a business if u feel that if it fails u can go and get urself another job. I think this is changing. The 80s particularly made everyone in the north of the uk fear for employment.

It is also easier to start a business if u are skilled. People i know that start there own business do so after having working in business evironments and have knowledge of market niches.

Goverments can also play a part in culture. Look at labour. for yr they told us all business were bad, profit was wrong and then do the opposite when they came into power. Governments should be encouraging people to start business not telling them they are greedy.

Another aspect for business start up for the south east was said to be home ownership. ie people can borrow against there house to raise capital. Low home ownership in scotland had obvious implications. That is changing.


One thing i have noticed with devolution both with labour and now the snp is that to a degree both are willing to address scottish problems (not talking about specifically economic issues). That simply did not happen before.
154

Traquir , Alba,

24/06/2008 15:06:47
165 Highland Mighty
"159. Ah, the good old McCrone report.

Written when oil prices were also in an unnatural spike and rising."

I bet that you failed history and arithmetic
at school, assuming of course you are not
still at school ? Do try harder, your
perpetual negativity is not good for your
health. Think positive, have confidence in
Scotland capabilities and prospects, and
then you might be able to wean yourself
off the British Nanny teat you are attached
to like a limpet.

Crude Oil Prics
1974 $9.35 McCrone (see tinyurl.com/3sdrdg)
1975 $12.21
1976 $13.10
1977 $14.40
1978 $14.95
1979 $25.10
1980 $37.42
1981 $35.75
1982 $31.83
1983 $29.08
1984 $28.75
1985 $26.92
1986 $14.44
1987 $17.75
1988 $14.87
1989 $18.33
1990 $23.19
1991 $20.20
1992 $19.25
1993 $16.75
1994 $15.66
1995 $16.75
1996 $20.46
1997 $18.64
1998 $11.91
1999 $16.56
2000 $27.39
2001 $23.00
2002 $22.81
2003 $27.69
2004 $37.66
2005 $50.04
2006 $58.30
2007 $64.20

Slàinte mhor a h-uile là a chi 's nach fhaic
155

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 24/06/2008 15:10:06
#52 - "Get out the uk union and play a full role in the european union and scotland will be better of for it."

Well I might be daft but I'm not a parochial wee Scottish nationalist who somehow is so confused they find some logic in defending the likes of the expanding European Union whilst happy to push for the destruction a union that has served these islands well for the past 300 years. How bitter and twisted is that?

Patriotism should never ever be confused with nationalism. Shame on you and your ilk as you are a disgrace to this country and proud nation of ours.

Heaven help us from folk with your jaundiced and prejudiced views who, when the surface is scratched a wee bit more, are simply anti-English, end of story.
156

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

24/06/2008 15:28:25
#180 Alan B
I was wondering where Ugly George was coming from, after having read your previous posts, viz-a-viz the £27Bn etc.;, but put it down to Onionista withdrawal symptoms, realising that not only have we been lied to for 50 years, but they to have been lied to.

I really don't know which is worse, at least we knew they were lying and told them so at every oppurchancity.
But to be an Onionista and to find out that your holiest of holy 'holy grail, 'The Union' is naught but a refuge of charlatans, crooks and liars who have duped you into believing it is the best thing to come out of the wilderness since Moses jumped aboard his Motorbike wie the big slabs on the Panniers, is naught but a sham to keep those rogues in power, and to abuse everyone, including their loyal supporters, must come as a terrible, mind numbing shock to them.

Almost a sort of 'Stockholm Syndrome' scenario where they are taking the role of the 'hostages' and have complete and total empathy and sympathy with their captors and when they are freed deny that they ever were 'hostages'.
Sad really

Your comments on Scotland in the 60's and 70's concerning political persuasion, are quite valid, however if Scotland had gained Independence at that time, I doubt that a Left wing government would have been elected, as at that time, Before Thatcher, The Tories were a force to be reckoned with in Scotland, and our electoral system may not have been FPP, but some sort of Proportional system as the we have today in Scotland, but that is pure conjecture.

The main thing is that now we have a window of opportunity, which we need to seize with both hands and take that giant step, that leap of faith, we must go that extra mile, for the benefit of the Scottish people, their children and their children's children.

It will not be easy but it will be worthwhile.

183 Traquir , Alba,24/06/2008 15:06:47

Good work Traquir, must be very heartening for you to be called 'boring' by the Onionstas,
157

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

24/06/2008 15:29:05
183 Traquir , Alba,24/06/2008 15:06:47

Good work Traquir, must be very heartening for you to be called 'boring' by the Onionstas, a sure sign that you are demolishing the little bit of credibility they have left, if indeed they ever had any ;-)

Keep up the 'sterling' work ;-)
158

Traquir , Alba,

24/06/2008 15:39:00
186 Rabbies Wee Bruthir

Thanks, yep from these guys I regard
it as a high compliment :)
It is interesting that Unionistas
whinge and cringe about my factual list
(just a small partial list mind you) of
British Follies but don't bother to tell us
which ones were actually good investments
for Scotland.

Slàinte mhor
159

Alan B,

24/06/2008 15:45:20
#184 Liberal for life

U seem unable to construct an argument.

U have advocated joining the euro as being in scotlands interests. I agree. However u are willing to remain in a union that is unlikely to let us do so.

I am simply putting my views on what i consider to be scotland national interest.

U however have been unable to give any benefits of the UK to scotland, raise ridiculous and irrelevent red herrings that have nothing to do with any mature debate about whether the uk is good for scotland.

Scotland has performed badly economically relative to other small european countries. Fact.

Westminster holds the economic tools of power and is simply not willing or interested to use them to address scotlands economic issues. Fact.

By aligning ourselves with this union we will suffer under the high interest rates of sterling rather than take the advantage of the euro. Fact.

In political terms if england votes one way and with the voting system that the uk has it does not matter what scotland votes at a general election. (unless england is split, something that may happen once every 30/40yrs).

The fact that u waffle on about patriotism and anti englishness. Stuff i never talked about or alluded to shows the lack of depth of ur argument, and also ur own lack of confidence in ur own argument.


160

Alan B,

24/06/2008 15:48:57
#185 Rabbies Wee Bruthir

U are right. In the 50s the unionist party at the time were the only party in scottish general election history that have won a majority of the vote.

The rise in support for the labour party in scotland coinsides with the unionist party merging with the tories down south.

161

Alan B,

24/06/2008 16:01:12
#Liberal for life

"Well I might be daft but I'm not a parochial wee Scottish nationalist who somehow is so confused they find some logic in defending the likes of the expanding European Union whilst happy to push for the destruction a union that has served these islands well for the past 300 years. How bitter and twisted is that?"

That makes absolutely no sense.

You evalutate a union on it merits to scotlands nation interest. I support the european union as i believe in the single market, common currency (do not think countries should be forced to join), freedom of movement of people, an underpinning human rights, and would like to see it develop a common foreign policy and have military co-operation so that it can pertake in peace keeping and deal with problem neighbours like iran, iraq and cyria if turkey get membership.

I believe most thing should be devolved so they will be at the scottish parliament level.

I am not idelogically against a union with the other british nations but it must be for a tangiable reason. I would also like it constructed like the eu to be confederal. ie scotland would be a member of the british union.

Problem is i cannot find anything i feel that is it in scotland interests pull powers over.

I would move to a dev max positon asap. That would leave eu membership, defence, foreign affairs and currency at a uk level.

As i have said none of these i can see as a good reason for remaining with a union. Scotland should be a member of the eu on it own right. We should adopt the euro.

The only issue really is defence. Scotland would not want nuclear and tends not to want to involve itself in wars. As such a defence union and not a full scale union is really the only intellectual issue worth arguing about.
162

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 16:17:20
163/171 U George

no Goerge, as the surplus Grant Thornton are predicting is smaller than the incremental oil revenues driven by price increase, what they are saying is that Scotland would in surplus anyway - and bear in mind that they are only assuming 83% revenues allocated to Scotland....92% of oil bearing acreage is already in the Scottish sector.

On 171 your post makes so sense - you seem to argue that as revenues equalled c£6 billion per year this has no bearing on surplus/deficit or would not have been transformational for Scotland - as the entire Scottish budget was c £6bn per year in the eighties this would have doubled the budget available to Scotland
163

,

24/06/2008 16:18:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
164

pwd,

Borders 24/06/2008 16:31:45
* Highland Mighty (passim)

I noticed the very large number of posts ranged against you and wondered if you needed some help. Then I actually read these posts and decided - no, you don't need any help; you're well on top of anything the current opposition are capable of throwing at you. Keep up the good work.
165

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 16:58:37
183. So to counter my comment that in 1975, oil prices rose sharply before falling again...

...you cut&paste a lengthy table showing how oil prices started rising sharply in 1974 before falling again. That's me right in my place!

Here, you might think this proves me wrong too: http://tinyurl.com/6k8g9y

Maybe next you can find a table listing the oil duty income over the same period and matching it with Scottish subsidy as GERS does:

Scotland's subsidy from the nasty nasty UK in 2006/07 = £10.2bn
Scotland's share of oil income = £7.5bn


166

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 24/06/2008 17:00:34
Traquir , Alba,
24/06/2008 00:22:30
You continue to be a shining star of truth and honesty keep up the good work.



#193. It need help ok the kind you need to get into a back to front jacket.
167

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 17:01:22
Quick scan of recent posts and again it's the nats favouring insults over fact.

What a joke.

Come on nats, let's spin the plain and simple accounts one more time!
168

Highlan­d Mighty,

Borders 24/06/2008 17:02:25
193. pwd, thanks and yes the cybernat children are not hard to dismiss!
169

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 17:04:18
198. Ayrshire Scot, desperate to find even the smallest victory in this endless display of discredited nationalist lies, resorts to....

...cloning a username. Badly.

Outstanding.
170

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 24/06/2008 17:10:21
#184 Liberal for life "Patriotism should never ever be confused with nationalism. Shame on you and your ilk as you are a disgrace to this country and proud nation of ours."

I cannot see anything disgraceful in expressing a willingness for self government. Every great nation in the world that people admire have self determination via democratically elected government voted for by the people they represent.

I dispute your view that you wish this makes a person "wee Parochial Scottish Nationalist"

I do however agree that we should not go jumping out of one union straight into the other with even less representation.

We should become independent since we are a nation not a region. We should represent ourselves to the best of our ability.

If we are doing this good without leadership why should we not be fantastic with leadership.

Once we expected people to die for Scottish Freedom. All we might be required to do to in this day and age is pay a little more in taxes initially.

We can focus on Scotland in a way the UK government could never focus as it has rightly concentrated on the other 50 million people.

I do not blame them for our unfortunate position they just have different priorities. My priority is Scotlands future, not Londons future.

The union is an unhappy marriage from the start resisted by the people and that is why 300 years later it is still not accepted by most Scottish people outside of the central belt where football and religion govern their politics.
171

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 24/06/2008 17:12:12
THERES MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


British Pride,
11/04/2008 18:16:47
553. Whoa! Great! Such typical SNP incite. Fantastic! I only post as Highland Mighty, can you say the same you cyber-nay???
172

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 17:16:46
201. Once again; that was posted by a nat cloning a username.

I know there is a little precedent of that ever happening but you'll just have to take my word for it (not that I care if you don't).

And also once again, YOU are an idiot.
173

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 17:17:46
199. Eh?
174

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 24/06/2008 17:21:18
#192 Ayrshire Scot

FYI, I have dark brown hair and am not a cross-dresser.
EXACTLY, what do YOU look like and what frocks do you weaar when out in public with your VERY close male "friends"?
175

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 17:42:10
204. Fabulous and hot, thanks
176

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 17:44:16
204. Tim, I note you lack the gentlemanly good grace to admit your error (that you thought I I was referring to you) - for shame, you are clearly an impudent hound and grecian 2000 using closet ginger
177

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 17:47:32
204. Tim, and what exactly do you mean by "my VERY close male friends"?
178

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 17:54:40
215. Thought so
179

C U Jimmy,

east Ayrshire 24/06/2008 18:03:17
England was built on the sweat and toil of it's colonies, and Scotland is just about all that is left for them to exploit, they keep looking for negative points and ignore all the positive sides, they will soon get around to our weather and the midgie problem, if Scotland votes against Independence the will just have to take another 100 years of exploitation, why should our wealth be used to continue the already overheated south east of this island?
180

Ugly George,

edinburgh 24/06/2008 18:09:12
183 Traquir
Selective info once more. In 1973 OPEC pushed up the price of oil to $40 per barrel. I notice that you have ommitted this. The McCrone report was written on the back of this. It seems that so many people regard McCrone as some sort of seventies Messiah. The reality is that he got his projection wrong. If you doubt this just look at BERR figures showing oil revenues in the early nineties - less than £1bn in 1991/92. These are facts as opposed to McCrones inaccurate projections. Please look at the situation as it was not as McCrone thought it would be.
181

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 18:14:23
191 Ayrshire Scot
You obviously don't understand calculations involved in terms of how to adjust figures in real terms using a deflator. The figures I quoted were in real (ie current) terms. That should be fairly obvious to anybody with any numerical ability.
182

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 18:18:42
191 Ayrshire Scot
PS If you think that the entire Scottish budget in the eighties was only in the region of £6bn per annum then you have revealed that your knowledge and understanding of these matters is extremely limited.
183

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 18:33:28
223. Ugly George - I do indeed think the budget of the Scottish office was c. £6bn in the early 80s, because it was.

Now if you want to broaden that to total estimated expenditure vs revenues, I would be happy to take your averaged oil revenues figures (posted above) and add those to government expenditure/ revenues figures for the 80s/90s (which underestimate other revenues and overestimate spending) - even this shows a net Scottish subsidy to the rest of the UK for most years..
184

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 18:37:09
222. Goerge, pompous as you sound, you clearly don't understand the UK governments own figures (which inflated expenditure and minimised revenue from Scotland). Here are the UK governments own figures - you will note that they show a surplus for Scotland every year (source: Hansard Mrs. Liddell
[holding answer 19 December 2002]:
:

Financial year/Expenditure/Revenues (excluding North Sea revenues)/UK North Sea revenues2
1980–81 11.0 8.5 3.7
1981–82 12.3 10.0 6.5
1982–83 13.3 10.6 7.8
1983–84 14.2 11.4 8.8
1984–85 15.1 12.0 12.0
1985–86 15.8 13.1 11.3
1986–87 16.6 13.7 4.8
1987–88 18.7 14.9 4.6
1988–89 19.4 16.3 3.2
185

elizabeth the first ,

24/06/2008 18:39:01
Why are there so many stupid immature people on this thread,scots are noted for their intelligence,but seemingly not any more.
186

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 18:42:08
226 Putting those figures in an easy to understand way for unionists, they show, according to the UK government, the Scottish subsidy to the rest of the UK was as follows:

1980–81 1.2bn
1981–82 4.2 bn
1982–83 5.1 bn
1983–84 8.0 bn
1984–85 8.9 bn
1985–86 8.6 bn
1986–87 1.9 bn
1987–88 0.8 bn
1988–89 0.2 bn
187

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 18:43:21
227. Your post, by its presence, answers its own question
188

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 18:44:18
227
I don't think Highland Mighty is Scots elizabeth, and the name George has a certain English connection.
189

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 18:47:01
230. aye, you maybe correct, he is a sad case. I note at 198 he got caught posting to himself again
190

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 18:48:32
Good Evening Cybernats.

Fighting the good fight I see, hats off to Traquir.
191

Ugly George,

edinburgh 24/06/2008 18:49:26
225/226 Ayrshire Scot
You have admitted your own errors. You stated that the total budget was c £6bn in the eighties and then produced figures to show that it was well above that. Also you seem to be unaware that the figures I quoted were in real terms ie todays prices so your comparison is irrelevant. Also you have quoted the figures for the eithies only. What about the seventies and nineties? Have you omitted them as they do not suit your argument. The figures I quoted were for the whole period of North Sea oil and gas revenues not just for a selected few years.
192

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 18:49:58
228. What? No source and no records for anything within the last 20 years?

How curious.
193

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 18:52:51
225. Ayrshire Scot: "I do indeed think the budget of the Scottish office was c. £6bn in the early 80s, because it was."

226. Ayrshire Scot:
"Expenditure:
1980–81 11.0
1981–82 12.3
1982–83 13.3
1983–84 14.2"

So it IS true. You really cannot read. Not even your own posts!
194

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 18:52:55
234. Ugly George

sadly not - I stated the budget for the Scottish office. The government figures I then quoted, which show a Scottish subisdy to the rest of the UK every year of the 80s, include the Scottish office budget AND a prorated Scottish share of defence, foreign affairs and non-identified public expenditure - even though this massively overstates expenditure in Scotland, what it does show is a Scottish subsidy to the rest of the UK every year.

Now, perhaps you will peruse this data, from the UK government itself, and tell me again how Scotland was subsidised in the 80s
----------------------------------------------------

HANSARD
§ Mr. Joyce
To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if she will calculate(a) the tax revenue from Scotland since 1980 and (b) the total government spending in Scotland since 1980; and if she also will calculate these figures omitting tax revenues from the continental shelf. [88219]

§ Mrs. Liddell
[holding answer 19 December 2002]: A table setting out estimates of aggregate expenditure and revenues for Scotland is provided in the table. As noted in the footnote to the table, there are different sources for different parts of the series and therefore some potential for variation in the estimating approaches used.

Estimated Aggregate Expenditure and Revenues, Scotland 1980–81 to 1999–2000
£ billion
Financial year Expenditure 1 Revenues (excluding North Sea revenues) 1 UK North Sea revenues2
1980–81 11.0 8.5 3.7
1981–82 12.3 10.0 6.5
1982–83 13.3 10.6 7.8
1983–84 14.2 11.4 8.8
1984–85 15.1 12.0 12.0
1985–86 15.8 13.1 11.3
1986–87 16.6 13.7 4.8
1987–88 18.7 14.9 4.6
1988–89 19.4 16.3 3.2
1989–90 21.6 17.6 2.4
1990–91 22.3 18.7 2.3
1991–92 24.2 19.5 1.0
1992–93 27.0 19.4 1.3
1993–94 28.6 20.2 1.2
1994–95 29.9 22.1 1.6
1995–96 31.3 23.9 2.3
1996–97 31.5 25.0 3.3
1997–98 32.2 26.8 3.3
1998–99 33.1 28.4 2.5
1999–2000 33.8 29.8 2.5
1 Sources: 1978–79 to 1987–88—unpublished
195

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 18:54:10
233
What's the best piece of Scots architecture that would find itself on a Scots printed Euro?

Anyone any favourites?
196

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 18:54:28
234. Ah, beaten to it on both counts.

Come on Ayrshire, dig yourself out of this. Would you like me to organise a JCB for you? Can you hear me all the way down there?....can he hear me all the way down there?
197

elizabeth the first ,

24/06/2008 18:54:58
229. you are not a pleasant character are you.
198

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 18:55:13
236. Highland, sadly the Scottish office budget did not include a share of defence, foreign affairs and non-identified public expenditure (mortgage tax relief, motorway builidng, defence procurement) - you clearly don't understand the basis for the figures.

However, would you care to comment on the UK government figures I supplied, taken from Hansard, which show Scotland subsidising the rest of the UK every year of the 80s? You said otherwise. Why does the UK government not agree with you?
199

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 18:57:32
234. goerge - I very clearly stated the "Scottish Office budget" - now, would you care to comment on the UK governments own figures showing a net Scottish subisidy?
200

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 18:59:03
237. Ayrshire Scot finally concedes that Scotland has been subsidised by the rest of the UK since 1989.

Well done. Doesn't that 'reality' feel good.
201

Yankee girl,

USA 24/06/2008 18:59:18
238

Conan, really the list is endless. But here are some possibilities from a Yankee's viewpoint:

- Edinburgh Castle
- Dunnottar Castle
- the old Firth of Forth Bridge
202

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 18:59:27
242. Blimp

I did not. The UK government "expenditure" figures I quote assume pro-rated Scottish expenditure on "non-identified public expenditure" - as 98% of mortgage tax relief was paid outside Scotland, 94% of major cpaital programmes were outside Scotland, these figures grossly over-state expenditure in Scotland - howver, they still show a subsidy from Scotland to the UK even on that basis
203

elizabeth the first ,

24/06/2008 19:00:56
241. you seem to take great delight in the fact that at some time Scotland was in some way doing it's bit to support the UK,as part of the UK, what's so unusual about that.
204

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 19:01:46
237 Ayrshire Scot
Have you ever heard of the saying "if you find yourself in a hole stop digging". Look at your own figures which show massive deficits for Scotland throughout the nineties even if total oil and gas revenues are added. You have proved my point. The supposed surplus from Scotland only existed for a few years in the eighties. If you look at the whole period a rather than selected years a completely different picture emerges.
205

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:01:50
238. Hats off and hoos poos. I quite like the Wallace Monument as well, looks great in its setting.... Eilean Donan castle quite nice too..
206

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:04:45
249. Nope George, the total picture using that calculation method shows a net Scottish subisidy to the UK 2004 of $27 billion...
Glad you finally accept that.

And, as I said when I quoted the figures, they grossly over-state Scottish expenditure and underestimate revenues - according to the UK civil service, GERS 2008, who have produced 3500 corrections.... on that basis we can safely conclude that from 1979-2008 Scotland has subsidised the UK substantially...
207

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 19:04:52
241. No, I'm absolutely delighted to say it is YOU that clearly doesn't understand the basis of the figures.

The figures are:

a) Total tax revenue from Scotland
b) Total government spending in Scotland

What b) doesn't show is the ADDITIONAL expenditure on the non-domestic matters that are Scotland's share of share of defence, foreign affairs and non-identified public expenditure (mortgage tax relief, motorway builidng, defence procurement).


So, you see, your figures are (as usual) incomplete as they do not show Scotland's payment towards UK-wide matters.
208

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:05:34
245. Dunnottar Castle? Wasn't built to last...
209

john z,

edinburgh 24/06/2008 19:05:36
I can't understand why ordinary scots would think the Union is good for them. Talk about brainwashing.

Seriously though, the union in its current from makes no sense. At the very least, its basis should be changed, with this time around a legal treaty actually approved by the people of Scotland unlike the deceit of 1707. England should have its own devolved parliament, and then we could have a 'Union' higher chamber for the united kingdom, with one country one vote. Just think, the whinging english would be free of the 'west lothian' question at last.

Of course that will never happen, as 'England owns Scotland', and that's the way it'll always be, until the people of Scotland stop believing the bullsh@t by london media and politicians, get up off their knees, and stop behaving like twenty first century colonial subjects of England.

For almost all of Scotlands history it has been an independent country, until the treachery and lies of 1707. The act of union, if you read the full history, and not what you think you already know, is possibly the greatest political coup and piece of interstate subtefuge ever undertaken by the English. The union of 1707, was and is illegal, is a sham, and is also the most pathetic shameful event in Scottish history.

The people of Scotland did not want it, they rioted in the streets, but it was voted through by those who were threatened, intimidated and bribed by the English crown.

For heavens sake, get off your knees Scotland.
210

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 19:06:51
251. Everybody, Ayrshire Scot has lost the plot.

Can we all help out trying to find it for him?
211

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:07:02
252. Wrong. Please see GERS report for 2008 (links above) and parliamentary answers - the total expenditure includes pro-rated share of non-geographically allocated expenditure.
212

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 19:07:51
245
You're on early Yankee girl:-)
The Forth Bridge is my favourite too.

Col, also good, but is it known much outside of Scotland?
213

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:07:58
255. Jeez Highland, a bit mean. I was only quoting a parliamentary written answer from a UK government minister - are you saying the UK gov has lost the plot?
214

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 19:08:22
Come on, don't all turn away. The lad tries hard and we should all help him out....
215

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:08:38
257. I am, if they will send more free stuff
216

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 19:10:21
254. Yes! Another nat-nutter again resorts to a rabble-rousing Braveheart style reference to three centuries ago!
217

elizabeth the first ,

24/06/2008 19:10:55
254."The whinging English" we only whinge when we have something to whinge at i.e the unfair barnett formula,and the west lothian question.
218

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:13:05
262 - Highland, do ssssh, you are clearly getting over-excited again.... I suggest we all ignore you for a wee bit, for your own good
219

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 19:13:29
237. By the way, did you notice the source of all those figures that you are quoting with great reverence?

Maybe you'd like to share it with us....
220

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:15:20
265, I didn.t quote them with reverence, I quoted them noting, in the same way the government has started noting, that they over-estimate Scottish expenditure and underestimate revenues...

Now as you are getting over-excited we will have to ignore you for a wee bit until you calm down
221

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 19:15:38
256. No, it doesn't.

Total government expenditure DOES NOT include the pro-rata payments.

You screwed up, quite magnificently too, and maybe it would be best if you quit while you are that far behind.
222

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 19:17:03
257 Col Blimp IV
If I may say so you are being rather presumptious in ascribing motives to me. I merely wish that people see the situation as it is not how they wish it to be.
223

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 19:17:13
266. Ah, you're going into a wee sulk. How precious.

Off you go then, little lad.

Thank you for finally accepting that Scotland has been subsidised by the UK for the last 19 years (at least, anyway).
224

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:18:10
267. Source? Mine is the UK government. What is yours?
225

Yankee girl,

USA 24/06/2008 19:18:12
250 How could I forget Eilean Donan? Thanks, Ayrshire!

As for Dunnottar, it seem so symbolic - a rugged, impenetrable fortress, brave, independent....and at one time it hid the Scottish crown jewels. Well, I probably sound like a tourist ad.

Not familiar with the Wallace monument but it sounds good too.
226

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:19:12
269. How odd, because even if we accept the accounting methods of the figures I quoted, they show a net £27 billion subsidy from Scotland to the UK - source, UK government
227

Yankee girl,

24/06/2008 19:19:57
258 Hi, Conan! Once in a while I sneak on here when I'm at .... that horrible place I go to every day. Ya know?
228

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:20:13
271.

Just for you .... :-)

http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/stirling/wallace/images/fromcastle.jpg

229

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 19:20:15
268. Indeed. Pragmatism and realism is only mistaken for treason by the over-excited and perpetually ill-informed nats.

But we are making progress. Ayrshire Scot has finally accepted that Scotland has been subsidised by the UK for the last 19 years, so at least one is coming round.

Well, I thought he was but he's having a bit of a relapse, it seems.
230

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:22:50
273. Shooting gallery?
231

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 19:22:58
272. You see, there you go again.

You are now quoting £27bn which is nowhere near the total of 'subsidies' you quoted further up.

Why is that?
232

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 19:23:21
255
Well there was a plot in 1975 to hide from the Scots people the potential prosperity that could have been our.
Was that the one you meant?
233

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:23:36
275. Hey Highland, calm down, where are you from and what's your nationality? And what's your favourite Scottish architecture?
234

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 24/06/2008 19:24:10
#206 Wendy Alexander MSP (if you REALLY are she)

OF COURSE I realise that this is not a "GLT chatline" as you so pointedly put it.

Some of us are NOT stupid and if you are a truly a member of the Scottish Parliament one would expect a more measured and savvy posting.

I surmise, probably erroneously, that you are a poster with delusions of parliamentary grandeur.

Prove me wrong, WENDY ALEXANDER MSP!
235

Yankee girl,

USA 24/06/2008 19:24:16
274
Thanks!! That is a good one, too.
236

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 19:25:02
272 Ayrshire Scot
You are still only looking at a few selected years. Anybody can attempt to prove a point by choosing selective evidence. Look at the whole picture since revenues from North sea oil and gas started.
237

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:25:39
277. Highland - the £27 billion is the parliamentary answer, from the UK government, covering 1979-2004, using the same dodgy accounting methods I quoted, again from UK government figures above... now do please pipe down, however you cut it, the UK has been subsidised by Scotland.

Now do please clam yourself.
238

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:26:33
282. Accoridng to the UK government, using figrues which the civil service now say over-stated Scottish expenditure and undertsate revenue, the subsidy in toat is c £27 billion.

239

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:27:16
280. Ginger
240

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 24/06/2008 19:28:00
#214 Ayrshire Scot

Throughout history men have bonded by being "blood-brother" and such. It is entirely acceptable and perhaps you doth protest TOO much.
241

elizabeth the first ,

24/06/2008 19:30:58
Mr Ayrsirescot.with the greatest respect,you would make the pope irrate.
242

Nikostratos,

24/06/2008 19:32:59
#284 Ayrshire Scot™,

'figrues' 'figrues' and damn 'figrues'

I think tim means something like this Oeer! well i never

http://www.texasmale.com/
243

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 19:33:46
283. And you are still contradicting yourself. You really have got yourself all confused.

The figures YOU have produced above, clearly show Scotland receiving a multi-billion subsidy from 1989 onwards.

Have you noticed how we are faring without the volatile and decreasing oil supply? Salmond actually needs more than £10bn then. That's a third of our govt's budget relying on volatile oil income!

Are you seriously suggesting we should base our entire future on long-past-mature oil fields that even the multinationals have started giving up on?
244

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:35:49
288. LOL. Is "bigbootz" Highland M?

And how did you get out yer zimmer?
245

Nikostratos,

24/06/2008 19:36:38
#290 colonel

wuz that mean are u for it or agin it......
246

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:36:55
286. What do you mean, Tim? I just asked what you meant by asking me what I did with my "VERY close male friends"?

247

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:38:10
290. Col B

indeed, if we accept that we are subsidised, I think we should start to pay our way in the world - independence seems the only answer to stop us being subsisided?
248

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 19:39:01
283/284 Ayrshire Scot
You seem to be confused over your own figures. the £27Bn was, according to you earlier the figure for the eighties and or nineties. Now it is the figure for 1979 -2004. It also happens to be a figure quoted in the nineties. Which is it? Also as I keep saying why do you not accept that the only way to establish this whole argument is to go back to the start of North Sea revenues as I have done. You persist in taking selected years.
249

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 19:39:20
290. Well, Salmond and Swinney are required to sign off on the last GERS, the one that showed a £10bn/£3bn subsidy from UK to Scotland.

This is the same GERS that they have been revising for the past 8 months.

This is the GERS that has totally discredited the SNP's own version of GERS released in 2005 (which didn't...then suddenly did show a small surplus...which doesn't seem to exist now)

This is the GERS that totally discredited that amateurish work 'The Great Deception' (which claimed lots, has been greatly discredited before but has been thoroughly trashed now)
250

Nikostratos,

24/06/2008 19:40:01
#291 Ayrshire Scot™


Zimmer's don't cost £6 a gallon and you can dance them with down at the o.a.p centre..have to watch your dentures dont fall out though........any way must go bye
251

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 19:41:36
290 Col Blimp
You have your own view of the future. That's up to you. How is that relevant to the points I was trying to make.
252

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:42:56
287. I fear so, in so many ways...
253

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 19:43:26
294. Now you are just being very silly indeed.

If going independent would cost us billions in public spending, would result in greatly increased taxes, in borrowing at EU limits in the long term (it would breach 3% right now), would result in soaring govt debt (when we have zero repayments today), would mean we would have to rely on an extremely volatile income stream for a third of our budget (as opposed to the stability we have now)...

...you think we SHOULD go independent?!?!
254

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:46:12
297. Nighty, don't break a hip on that motorised zimmer now
255

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 19:46:47
290 Col Blimp
PS You are entitled to your own view but is it not rather presumptious, arrogant and insulting of you to suggest that if we do not share that view then we have no self respect for ourselves or our antecedants. Once again you seem, for some reason, to believe that you have justification for judging other peoples' motives.
256

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:48:47
302. Now now, Ugly, either we are subsidised or we are not. If we are, surely we agree, self respecting people would try to stand on their own feet? or do you advocate continued (invented) subsidy as the best course for Scotland? What an odd position Unionists take....
257

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 19:49:13
Ayrshire Scot, you have just proven that Scotland has been subsidised by the UK for the past 19 years...

...and yet you think we should break off from this stability and security of our public services and go it alone, hoping what is an extremely delicate income stream will hold up?!?!
258

elizabeth the first ,

24/06/2008 19:50:25
299. Not a religious man then,we all support each other it's as simple as that.
259

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:51:16
304. And yet the UK governments own figures, which over-estimate expenditure and under-estimate revenue, show a £27 bn subisdy from Scotland.

And, you disputed those very figures... and now you don't? How odd....

Now, what nationality are you and what is your fav Scottish architecture
260

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:52:20
305. no not religious, and given to various mortal sins that I fear, as you accurately said, might irritate the pope
261

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 19:54:48
303 Ayrshire
Fair point. What I am really looking for is a balanced and objective view. In many respcts the whole argument aboout North sea oil is a harmful distraction as it diverts attention away from the real issues of how you structure a modern economy. In that sense I might agree - stand on your own two feet and contribute what you can but don't rely upon oil as a crutch.Whether you want to contribute that as part of Scotland or as part of the UK is up to you.
262

elizabeth the first ,

24/06/2008 19:54:52
307. Ah well, but please try and be a little more patient.
263

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:56:25
308. Ugly

indeed, we agree then, Scotland should stand on its own two feet. As macroenomic policy within the UK has demonstrably failed (30 year GDPO growth of 1.8%) clearly we need to try something else.
264

elizabeth the first ,

24/06/2008 19:56:43
Good night to you all.
265

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 19:57:10
299
LOL

302
George. As you find yourself "allied" to HM on this post, I am reminded of a saying my mother used to quote at me as I went off with my mates on our motorcycles.
"If you fly with the crows, you'll get shot with them"
266

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:57:17
309. OK.
267

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 19:58:49
311. Night elizabeth. Don't do anything sinful
268

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:00:25
312. Did your mother confuse motorcycles with new fangle black flying machines?
269

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 20:00:26
306. And you are confusing yourself again!

Having admitted and proven that Scotland has been subsidised FOR THE PAST 19 YEARS (and we still have to look at pre-1980, which you seem to have missed out), you now claim that this £27bn is all the justification needed for independence.

You also repeatedly miss out mentioning that GERS inaccuracies are +/-2%, not even close to explaining such huge gaps as, say, the 30% mother of black holes between domestic tax income and domestic expenditure.

What's your favourite school book and playground game? What a strange game, are you playing hide and seek next? Or maybe 'Wallace and the English'...?
270

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 20:01:25
310 Ayrshire
Now we are entering a different argument - comparative strengths of differing economically sized units. Unfortunately I have to leave - my wife is badgering me to get on the computer. Till next time.
271

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:03:52
317. Nighty...happy badgering.
272

Traquir , Alba,

24/06/2008 20:04:22
296 Highland Mighty,

"This is the GERS that totally discredited that amateurish work 'The Great Deception' "

Can you remind us all what your professional qualifications are in this area e.g. experienced & neutral economist, experienced & neutral accountant or obsessed, biased an unqualified amateur who will try and spin every figure against Scotland and in favour of Britain ?

At this point you would appear to be trying
to gear up for the third prototype in the
discredited series of Unionist finance experts.

Firstly we had the discredited AM1 (Arthur Midwinter) who the Scotsman refers to as a LEADING Scottish Economist,

Neil Kay, Professor
of Business Economics University of Strathclyde
however knows better:

'I am rather bemused by the coverage in The Scotsman and other newspapers describing Professor Arthur Midwinter as an "economist" and leading "expert", who has debunked the economic case for an independent Scotland. My understanding is that Prof Midwinter has a background in political science, indeed is a former professor of politics and a specialist in local government finance. 'It is, therefore, perhaps a step too far to saddle him with the label "economist", let alone describe him as an "expert" in the field. And, in fairness, I cannot recall him ever describing himself as an economist.
see - tinyurl.com/6pebvl

Then we had the second version of the prototype
AM2 which appears to be just a random statistics
engine which of course skews every figure against Scotland and in favour of Britain.

The first two prototypes have failed miserably. Now we have you as the third prototype AM3 - third time lucky is perhaps the best you can hope for :)
However with your depth of negativity you are
clearly the most depressing and sad of the
three. If somebody were to give you a bag
of prime ripe peaches you would no doubt
delight in finding the one with a maggot,
of course a British maggot.

Slàinte mhor a h-uile là a chi 's nach
273

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 20:06:01
It really is clear that independence must come at all cost and to hell with the consequences of relying on an extremely volatile income stream for our economy.

That really is a most naive, ignorant and very, very arrogant attitude.
274

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:06:32
316.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1PiiugqtjI

I played "Wallace and the English" once - bruised my privates
275

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 20:07:17
319. Ah, he's back with his random links.

Coming to tell us of the prospects of the 'welding consumables' market again?

LOL!
276

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:07:29
320. HM holds forth more

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYYZi8AAsiE&feature=related
277

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 20:08:59
323. I fear we have lost Ayrshire Scot.....well, one of his personalities anyway.
278

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:10:05
322. HM tips over the egde, despite gentle warnings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5MLaTN1OSE&feature=related
279

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 20:13:09
321
Which side were you on?
And did you have many privates under you?
280

Traquir , Alba,

24/06/2008 20:13:13
322 Highland Mighty,

"319. Ah, he's back with his random links.

Coming to tell us of the prospects of the 'welding consumables' market again?"

Oh I forgot you are a ship building expert also although one that appears to not recognize
there might substantial synergy between
'welding consumables' and "Ship building" :)

From the link I gave you previously
(see tinyurl.com/6qjot4 ) I suggest
you actually try to read and comprehend :

"Production Output in Euro Shipbuilding Industry Boosts Welding Equipment"

"healthy orders from shipyards over the next three years will boost revenues for welding equipment and consumable manufacturers"

"The market is in an upswing owing to dynamic developments in the European shipbuilding industry. "

You may see no link, but I would have thought
a basic grasp of economics and the
English language is all you would need -
perhaps I assume to much :)
281

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:16:09
326. LOL. hehehe

erm, I was Wallace, doing the stuffing
282

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:17:13
324. Hey Highland, why are you ashamed of your nationality? What is it?
283

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 20:24:35
327. Oh, I see........

329. British.

Quite why I should be ashamed of being part of one of the strongest political, economic and cultural nations is very curious. Well, there you go.
284

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 20:25:35
Ayrshire, Col., where is our esteemed chumrade these days?
285

Traquir , Alba,

24/06/2008 20:25:40
320 Highland Mighty,

"It really is clear that independence must come at all cost and to hell with the consequences of relying on an extremely volatile income stream for our economy.

That really is a most naive, ignorant and very, very arrogant attitude."

Given your expert economist capabilities
perhaps you could do a non-biased and
professional analysis of the potential income
stream from :

"North Sea oil 'will last for another half century'"
see - tinyurl.com/6ml3np and in fact
"'North Sea oil will last for 100 years'"
see tinyurl.com/54wl8e

This would help us get closer to a level playing field
to openly and transparently weigh up
Scotland's options. Your service would be greatly
appreciated since the Scottish Newspapers even
after two weeks have not even reported
on this story never mind done the level
of professional analysis that only you would
be capable of. Or perhaps you are ok with the
playing field being slanted in favour
of the Unionists - Democracy British Style :)

Slàinte mhor a h-uile là a chi 's nach fhaic
286

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:26:56
330. Col B. I agree - if Highland and the Unionists are correct, then we Scots are a bunch of baleful subsidised scroungers, a situation created and perpetuated by the Union. Their prescription is that we remain so... seems shocking

331. Highland - are you Scottish?
287

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 20:27:02
330. Can you "hypothetically accept"?

Either you do or you don't. Did you perhaps want to sound 'intelligent'....but then missed by a mile?
288

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 20:27:41
335. Yes.

Are you really this thick?
289

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:27:41
334. Indeed, (I posted a pic of the Wallace monument earlier)
290

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 20:28:15
Really. This. Thick?
291

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:29:24
337. You said you were British. By probability that meant you were more likely not to be Scottish. Anyway, no one belives you coz you posted as "An English voice" you knobster
292

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 20:30:23
Well, far, far more of this tomorrow.

Seeing Ayrshire Scot finally acknowledge decades of UK subsidy of Scotland has been a major step forward.

I just really hope this grip on reality that he has suddenly developed, doesn't weaken to quickly.
293

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:31:31
336. Now now, Highland. If we accept your point of view, then Scots are subsidisied scroungers, and this is the situation the Union has created - you can't argue with that because that is exactly what you are saying.

Now, if we are subsidised scroungers in the Union, clearly we need to end the Union to stand on our own two feet? or do you advocate we stay subsidised scroungers?
294

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 20:32:22
340. Make your mind up, little one. I can't be EV, AM2, British Pride AND HM.......
295

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:32:45
341. Cheery bye

296

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:35:08
343. Eh? I just said you were English Voice (and Stirling Sentinel). That's all. Cheery
297

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 20:35:41
342. Still struggling with this concept. STILL!

We need to continue to improve our economy so we don't rely on oil.

Do. You. Understand?

We are no.3 in the UK now but this is all being risked by Fat Albert increasing tension between Holyrood and Westminster and driving away potential business.....like Trump's billions!

Do. You. Understand?

Going independent will set this back decades, if not longer.

Do. You. Understand?
298

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 20:36:56
Ayrshire Scot, are you actually old enough to vote or are you one of the small army of impressionable and gullible teenagers that Fat Albert is trying to enfranchise?
299

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 20:37:21
336
"Either you did or you didn't"
Do you not know the meaning of hypothetically?

Suppositional, theoretical, speculative.






300

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:37:38
346. So you are saying Scots are subsidised scroungers, but we must continue subsidised scrounging until we scrounge enough?
301

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:39:22
348. No, old enough to vote. Do you have a very small knob? No offence, only you seem petulant and prickly like alot of people with small knob fixation? Only asking.
302

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:40:20
438. Who is Fat Albert? Is this some new kind of restrictive piercing/ ring to swell small knobs?
303

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 20:40:56
343
AM2 is always polite.

Unless you are his Mr Hyde.
304

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 20:41:39
349. Possession of a thesaurus is no substitute for actually knowing how to use one, twot. Stick to Gaelic if English is too much for you.

351. Very mature.

Two wonderful examples of the nationalist cringe.
305

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:43:19
354. So yes then. Normally I would say don't worry so much, but with a personality like yours.....
306

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:43:54
353. Hyde the thimble?
307

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 20:45:41
As the nats are clearly getting carried away with the Tennants, I'm off to join the real world down the pub.

Ah, such fun.

308

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:49:53
357. Cheery bye, English voice. Still can't figure why you chose that moniker if you are Scottish? Odd. Anyway, we will hust keep being subsidised scroungers per your preference. Hey, will you scrounge drinks at the pub, or do you not live by what you preach?

309

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 20:55:59
354
Ok pitean.

356
Can you get a reverse thimble?

357
I think I know HM's local.
It's the one that is extremely busy until HM walks in.
Then, as he latches on to one person after another it empties...until the poor bar staff make excuses to change barrels...
310

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 20:58:17
359. LOL,,,, HM... hardest job in the world, in'it?

Reverse thimble?
311

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 21:00:55
360
To keep the pr!cks from getting out.
312

,

24/06/2008 21:01:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
313

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 21:02:02
361. LOL. Highland wasn't weariing one then
314

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 21:08:08
362
Where is our chumrade?

315

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 21:09:31
364. Moving house and blighted by BT... got brief tag off him, spooky spoke to him before
316

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 21:14:49
365
Thanks be, thought he had had enough of the Hootsman.
317

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 21:17:25
366, nah, think he temps offline... and how could he have had enough, whne fluffy friendly charmers like Highland are here (not all monikers leave at once, how Bor-a-ing)
318

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 21:21:26
368. Ooh, what a shocker....
319

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 21:26:22
367
Union Jack saluting, inferiority complexed, rude, Chicken Littles.
320

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 21:29:31
371
Oh, Evening AM2.
Were you having a drink when the pub bore came in?
321

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 21:30:36
372. Well, chicken little at least had a narrative. See 371, what's he wanting? Odd that he pops up just there.
322

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 21:32:07
374. He is like a typing venroloquist, he can type as Highland drinks
323

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 21:34:21
375
Whats he wanting? The Status Quo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krK7Q49o6uA
324

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 21:41:58
378. Yes, but it would come out "vessel of subsidised beverage"
325

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 21:44:16
378
A picture paints a thousand words.

http://www.1000bottlesofbeer.com/images/168.jpg
326

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 21:47:11
382. I am sure he has the stats to show he does, and that we are all subsidised
327

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 21:52:35
385. I know! I have always welcomed free defence stuff and bank notes to light my ciggies.
328

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 21:56:11
387. hehehe lol. Sh-it, i was steaming, but I think that was the guy I played "Wallace and the English" with - I thought I felt some static build up off them cheap hotel carpets
329

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 22:08:40
384

Col.Here's one(looks like it's been well looked...at)

http://www.boingboing.net/images/lily-front.jpg
389
Evening Spook.
I am intrigued about the "Japanese kippering whale video".
330

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 22:10:00
390. Don't be, is dissappointing....
331

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 22:14:18
392. She may be inept, but she flosses
332

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 22:19:17
393
ARGH lol!
333

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 22:19:34
395. May explain his irritability and her swollen gub
334

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 22:21:32
394
Spook
Do they feature that wee pocket monster you have?
335

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 22:23:54
397
But they will get fast, warming relief...
336

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 22:24:33
399. LOL

337

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 22:27:10
Oh Jeez, here comes AM2 to raise the tone.

With statistics.
338

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 22:27:55
400. Oh good grief. Do you expect me to read that at this time of the day? Well, I haven't, but I'll hazard a guess that the over-estimates of expenditure (e.g attributing England only justice costs, Dounreay decommissioning, pro-rated non-identifiable expenditure etc) and under-estimates of revenue that have been corrected by the civil service in this years GERS probably balance the difference between 82% and 92% oil revenues that the SNP assumed..... so in fact, the real picture shoud in fact show a higher balance than the SNP assumed, with civil service "independent" backing
339

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 22:38:36
410. No, the SNP have not back-dated their estimates, now you are being silly.
340

working hard offshore,

aberdeen 24/06/2008 22:43:34
Highland mighty , i'm guessing is an old sod who was probably alive during the war and as a result still thinks Britain is a great "nation".

I am 25 and most of my friends are of the aggreement that Scotland should be independent although their parents may have voted labour.

When all these old codgers die off and the young, confident folk of now are of a majority of the scottish electorate we will vote for independence.
341

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 24/06/2008 22:48:12
#293 Ayrshire Scot

I fail to grasp exactly what part of the phrase I used that you want elucidated.

Is it "very"? Is it "close"? Is it "male"? Or is it "friends". Do tell, kind sir.

Perhaps "Wendy Alexander MSP" could stick her - or his -oar in and muddy the waters.

P. G. Wodehouse (1881-1975) once said of the Scots: "It is never difficult to distinguish between a Scotsman with a grievance and the dark shadow of a passing cloud." From "Blandings Castle and Elsewhere (1935)

Source: "The Oxford Dictionary of Thematic Quotations, OUP 2000,Cornwall, p. 339.

In Defeat, Defiant. In Victory, Venomous. et

Nemo me impune lacessit.
342

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 22:54:53
414. Tim, firstly, congrats on posting from 5am local time on this thread; second begone you tubinous fake; third your use of "VERY close male friends" was clearly some kind of gay smear, which is clearly the homophobia and abuse that unionists think passes as debate, you minging wee ginger tranny
343

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 22:59:18
414. PS - ray of sunshine wasn't it, AM2? cloud and grievance quite similar you ginger pubed micro man-thinged tranny
344

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 23:06:34
418 fascinating stuff tim,

so, basically you are complaining that the SNP have been proved right?

good oh
345

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 23:11:51
418. I did not compare the SNP estimate of expenditure pre and post 2008 GERS - I noted that the civil service adjusted down expenditure items from previous GERs based on previous false accounting, you are comparing the SNP estimate for 2005 with the civil service corrections for 2008. and complaining that the SNP were correct. So we can all agree Scotland is in surplus, the Uk is in massive deficit, and you will re-arrange the deck chairs accordingly.
346

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 24/06/2008 23:13:13
British Pride,
11/04/2008 18:16:47
553. Whoa! Great! Such typical SNP incite. Fantastic! I only post as Highland Mighty, can you say the same you cyber-nay???

http://tinyurl.com/944cj
347

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 24/06/2008 23:14:17
Why is it when Highland Mighty goes AM2 appears ?


http://tinyurl.com/944cj

British Pride,
11/04/2008 18:16:47
553. Whoa! Great! Such typical SNP incite. Fantastic! I only post as Highland Mighty, can you say the same you cyber-nay???

http://tinyurl.com/944cj

348

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 24/06/2008 23:27:08
scottishreferendum2008.blogspot.com

!!!!!!!!!!WOW 85% for independence in line with the ST poll. It really is time.

ALBA GU BRATH
349

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 24/06/2008 23:34:30
http://tinyurl.com/2ga3t5 read the truth by a qualified man of letters.



And the reason the UK needs Scotland and her oil http://tinyurl.com/6nlkly


ALBA GU BRATH

IT IS TIME
350

Conan the Librarian™,

24/06/2008 23:51:14
Who was deleted this time?
351

john calvin,

25/06/2008 02:53:21
Traquir, Alba, you display astonishing ignorance, with a focus purely on the past and blaming the Union for what exactly ? the fact that Edinburgh has a booming economy based on 1995 - 2005 figures, ie. pre SNP. Of course, as the SNP get to grips with their power, they will totally destroy what has been created. The 3p local tax is the 1st step to a socialist state, and btw, name me one successful socialist state you have actually visited before you start your red rant. Btw, don't try and impress us with your gaelic tongue you idiot. Gaelic is not and never has been the native tongue of Scotland - check your history, and get into the 21st century.
352

motherload,

25/06/2008 04:44:13
To meet a man across the sea, seemed an impossibility,
with my regard of distance born and my ability to scorn... any love forlorn...
yet meet this man i certain did, with much romance though amid, certain implausibility, to traverse the open sea.. hence his impassioned plea!
twentyfirst century here we come... more tomorrow....
353

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 25/06/2008 11:01:58
#381 Ayrshire Scot

Would you PLEASE get it correct once and for all.

I am NOT ginger-haired, my hair being naturally dark brown.

I anm NOT a "tranny" as you so felicitiously but erroneously put it.

Thank you for your very kind words on my posting at 5:00 a.m. local time.

I appreciate that you felt compelled to write as you did.

Have a NICE Scottish day.

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.