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Brown rejects SNP's £500m funding call



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Published Date: 02 April 2008
By Gerri Peev
GORDON Brown has slapped down Nationalist calls for Scotland to be given more than £500 million in funding for prisons and council tax benefit amid escalating tensions between Westminster and Holyrood.
A meeting between John Swinney, the finance secretary, and Yvette Cooper, the Treasury minister, ended in deadlock yesterday, with the SNP invoking the devolution dispute process for the first time since taking power.

Asked about the stand-off, the Prime Minister said: "I don't think the SNP administration can come to London and say Scotland has been underfunded."

He added that the Westminster government had tried to be "fair" to all parts of the UK.

Yesterday's meeting ended in Mr Swinney demanding a joint ministerial committee to resolve the row.

The finance secretary had asked to meet Ms Cooper to call for £120 million in funds to go to Scotland after prisons in England and Wales received a £1.2 billion boost to cope with overcrowding. As the money has come from reserves, the Treasury has argued there are no Barnett consequentials, so Scotland will not get the extra share.

Speaking after the talks, Mr Swinney said:

"The Treasury has refused to give us access to resources to which we are entitled. The financial arrangements make it clear we should be given a share of the increase in prisons expenditure south of the Border.

"The Treasury is not acting in an even-handed fashion towards Scotland – on prisons spending or council tax benefit – and the Scottish Government will want to take these issues to the joint ministerial committee to ensure we can get fair treatment for the taxpayers of Scotland."

Despite the invocation of the appeals procedure, sources said yesterday's meeting had been "very friendly".

A Treasury source said Mr Swinney had not suggested Ms Cooper was interfering in business that was not hers, but the Treasury did dispute his claim that the £400 million council tax benefit should be part of the Scottish block grant.

Ms Cooper wanted to be "as helpful as possible" in helping the administration put its policies in action, the source said.

An SNP source agreed the meeting was "cordial", but said tensions were high as this was the first time the "appeals" process was being used to resolve a dispute. The source added: "We are all mature enough to accept there will be differences from time to time."

Fragile relations were tested after Ms Cooper suggested there was a £750 million black hole in the SNP's plans for local income tax. Then, in an e-mail before the meeting, Ms Cooper rejected Mr Swinney's demands for extra cash as a consequence of the prison spending.

Meanwhile, Bill Aitken, the Scottish Tories' justice spokesman said Labour had turned the prisons crisis into a "constitutional drama and had "given the SNP another chance to play the politics of grudge and gripe".

Nicol Stephen, leader of the Scottish Lib Dems, added: "This is hardly a surprise. The UK government has been promising to remove this money from Scotland since before last year's election. The real test will come when the Scottish Parliament votes to get rid of council tax."

A PROCESS OF APPEAL

A JOINT ministerial committee meeting is the official "appeals" process for stand-offs between the devolved administrations.

These committees, bringing together senior ministers from across the UK, were set up in 1999 to smooth the path of devolution.

They have not met since 2002. However, last month Paul Murphy, the Secretary of State for Wales, announced that they were to resume.

An initial meeting is expected in May, followed by a full meeting chaired by Jack Straw, the Lord Chancellor.


The full article contains 613 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 April 2008 9:37 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

Angus Ogg,

01/04/2008 22:41:26
NEWSFLASH....

SCOTLAND REJECTS BROWN.

2007 Scottish election: Scottish Labour Lost and Brown Lost.

Fact: Brown has not been elected Prime Minister of the UK by the electorate.

I used to think Gordon Brown was a smart man. This article is a prime example of how badly Gordon Brown is reading the current political situation in Scotland.

Still, Brown is likely to be an ex-PM within 300 to 500 days.

Lame Duck UK government led by a Lame Duck Prime Minister. That is when McAvities Cat can be found.
2

Angus Ogg,

01/04/2008 22:51:48
Oh cr@p, just noticed it is Peev being paid by the Scotsman again to write this stuff. So another day I am not going to buy the paper version of the Scotsman.

Johnston Press, I am really getting Peeved at the slide over the years of the Scotsman, an iconic Scottish institution. I know the revenues are falling and that journalists are being laid off, but PLEASE can we have some balanced, incisive journalism from a proper journo. Thanks.
3

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 02/04/2008 00:27:22
It is quite bizarre and totally unacceptable that UK Government ministries are receiving funding from the reserves for use only in England (to which all British tax payers have contributed) in order to thwart the operation of the Barnett formula for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

I am really begining to think that Gordon Brown has the hidden agenda of speeding the dissolution of the UK and furthering the cause of independence for Scotland.

I cannot see what advantage he hopes to gain by taking this anti-Scottish position, when fair play and common logic would suggest the merit of Mr Swinney's claims on these two points.

I am beginning to understand why Mr Blair clung on as PM for so long. He may have known only too well how vindictive and petty Gordon Brown could be when he did not get his own way. At the moment Gordon Brown is held in fear by his Labour colleagues, but I cannot see their unflinching loyalty will hold if he continues to follow this politically suicidal path he is leading them down.

It makes no sense. His hatred of the SNP is really clouding any sound judgement he may have had. His scorched earth policy for Scotland will leave only a wilderness for the Labour party.
4

Porty Nat,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 00:29:46
Angus - leave Geri Peev alone. As Hootsmon political journalists go, she's probably the most even handed of the lot.

Just try and imagine what the article would have looked like if that clown Hamish Macdonnell had been writing it... :-)
5

Porty Nat,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 00:30:44
# 3 - Spot on.
6

Cyber Nat,

Helensborg 02/04/2008 00:48:15
"He added that the Westminster government had tried to be "fair" to all parts of the UK."

Gerri, Gerri. You missed your chance to ask the Broon one a humdinger of a question on that one.

As the Herald more fully says:

"Mr Brown said it had been "sustained by all governments, Conservative and Labour, and is generally based on the idea that the needs of the different parts of the UK should be taken into account"."

Perhaps you can get on the old Alexander Graham Bell tomorrow to ask him.

If, as the great leader says, "the needs of the different parts of the UK should be taken into account" why didn't they when it came to spending £1.2 billion on prisons south of the border?

Thousands of your readers will be carrying you on their shoulder pads if you get him squirming on that one.
7

Cyber Nat,

Musselborg 02/04/2008 00:49:24
Apparently this is what really happened today.

http://cybernat.blogspot.com/2008/04/copper-tantrum-woman.html
8

Cyber Nat,

Musselborg 02/04/2008 00:49:33
Apparently this is what really happened today.

http://cybernat.blogspot.com/2008/04/copper-tantrum-woman.html
9

pehman,

sussex 02/04/2008 00:52:35
3 Huntly loon,

Excelent post, it echo's my own in the herald. though Your says it more clearly, well done
10

Edward,

02/04/2008 02:21:27
Im not surprised at the arrogance of Gordon Brown and his manipulation in using Mrs Ed Balls to stir it with the Scottish Government. The only effect it has is making Brown look a bigger idiot thyan he already is.
The UK treasury cannot hand over £ 1.2 Billion to English regions, from UK tax money to boost funding on Prisons, without applying proportionate funding to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. After all the other countries contributed. Mrs Ed Balls tried to be clever, but has only highlighted how twisted the Brown regime really is!
Scotland also should be paid the £ 400 million block grant. Labour are using the excuse that its for benefits, we even had the spectacle of Mrs Ed Balls doing a Wendy Alexander stating its for paying directly to the poor (give me a break!). If she is so concerned about the poor, then she and her husband should give up some of the £ 600,000 there screwing out of the taxpayer!
11

Guga II,

Rockall 02/04/2008 02:31:45
Maggie Broon should realise by now that his contempt for the Scottish people will result in him losing his seat at the next general election.

This is the man who even had elocution lessons to get rid of his Scottish accent. He is obviously ashamed of his origins. Then again, he has already been bought and sold for English gold.

He is a liar, a charlatan and a war criminal; and when, hopefully, he is tried for war crimes, an independent Scotland should also charge him with treason.
12

Edward,

02/04/2008 02:57:28
#11 Traquir,Alba
Also saw Mrs Ed Balls being very condesending and stating that the Scottish Executive were not entitled to any more money than any other part of th UK. There was an undertone that insunated that she was only taking about regions or provinces of England and not dealing directly with an elected government in Scotland or that Scotland was a country in its own right
13

montecristo,

02/04/2008 03:05:43
FREEDOM!


I am an Englishman of Welsh descent, who has been during told his entire life(61) that he is British. I never minded this as we were all, Scottish,Welsh & N.Irish part of the union that made up Britian. Now, Scotland has almost gained its separation from from England, a monarchial arrangement made union.

I lived and worked in Scotland for many years and love the people and their culture, my brother is married to a scottish lass. I believe Scotland is showing England the way. Labour is putting the squeeze on Scotland to make it conform to labours wishes. Labour sees scotland as "traitorous" for choosing the SNP over labour. Good for Scotland!

I personally would like to see a new union of equal partners, a united Britian of four different free nations with a common defence and foreign policy and all else up to the individual states. But before any of us can get anywhere near this position we must first throw out labour and its communistic policies of control .



We in the south need and English national party like the SNP that can work in collusion with the SNP for a common goal. Labour fragmented the union for its own selfish ends, divide and conquerer. I am sick of seeing ant-scottish, anti-welsh, anti-Irish and anti-English comments. We are all in the same boat and we get on very well except for the politicians who would divide us.

So Scotland, show us the way, put the boot into labour and we in the south, will follow your lead.

William Wallace may not have actually cried " Freedom", but his spirit certainly did, and the same sort of tyrant (new labour), has his foot on all our throats.

14

R.I.P. HONEST BALANCED JOURNALISM,

02/04/2008 03:21:05
#13 - I took particular umbridge at that also.


This whole nonsense of trying to undermine a goverment is going to end in their own boston tea party. With brown flung in the forth if he ever dares come back to show his two faces in public.

The people of fife must be in aww of the fact he is actively selling them short for his own gain.

15

2Right,

On Location 02/04/2008 03:21:50
Broon will be booted out the first time he is at the polls.
Remember: he will always be remembered for the PM that refused an election because he was scared of being booted out.
Us Scots cannot forget the Oppression he is causing to Scotland.
If it was Labour MSPs asking for it, would it have been granted ? I think so
16

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 02/04/2008 06:13:23
This business makes it clear that change must come.We do need a partnersip of equal nations in the British Isles.The social relationship can remain,butScotland must raise and decide how to spend its own money.All the nations within the British Isles must have full membership of the EU (if their electorate wish to be a member).I'm open about this.Finland where I currently live is in the EU,Norway is not.Both countries have good quality of life for their citizens.

What is painful just now is to see a few people on these sites defending Westminsters attempt to prevent Scotland getting its own money.This issue is above politics and I would have supported a Labour/Liberal governments attempts to retain Scotlands money,in the same way that I support the SNP.Unfortunately,Labour seem disinterested in standing up for Scotland.Their attitude is appalling and they deserve to be punished in the next election.
17

donald,

glasgow 02/04/2008 06:20:16
Gordon Brwwn
Is a London clown
18

Jimmy the Pie,

02/04/2008 06:39:08
Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon is going down in history as the unelected clown who pushed the break up of the UK. For that I will be truly grateful.
The man is a bufoon and an idiot and deserves all he gets. He of course will walk away with his customary stash. I doubt if many will pay to hear him on the lecture circuit(unless they have sleep difficulties!)Roll on the happy day

www.snp.org
19

eric,

02/04/2008 07:23:37
Newsflash,ENGLAND rejects Labour in Tory Landslide Victory .cant wait.
20

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/04/2008 07:44:58
#26
Of course you can't wait for a conservative government. The nationalists seriously think we can't see them for what they are - tartan tories.
#20
Wardog,
The only real issue is that our finance minister cannot differentiate between political stunts and doing his job properly. As a minister he apparently hasn't made provision for the entirley predictable outcome of this fool's errand. To whit; the CTB would not be paid to the Scottish Executive, it never was nor will it ever be. This is a reserved matter, a UK benefit paid to individuals not the Scottish Executive. He was told this repeatedly but like a particularly dull child he ignored the warnings. Now when he is facing reality all he can do is girn and whine that it's not fair.
He really should be doing the job he is paid to do, manage the finances for which he is responsible. This playing politics with jobs and services is wreckless and cynical politics.
21

brownlie,

glasgow 02/04/2008 07:55:53
Let us be clear - How condescending is the opening paragraph reading "Gordon Brown slapped down Nationalist calls for £500m in funding ..."? In actual fact it should have read "The unelected leader of the Labour party of Great Britain refused the elected Scottish Government funding, which was rightfully Scotland's, in order to curry favour with English voters".
22

Reckless,

Corrupt EU 02/04/2008 08:20:27
HIV-AIDS was created to target gay men for Eugenics experiment, suggests U.S. doctor

Alan Cantwell, M.D. / The Canadian | March 30, 2008

There is no doubt that AIDS erupted in the U.S. shortly after government-sponsored hepatitis B vaccine experiments (1978-1981) using gay men as guinea pigs. The epidemic was caused by the “introduction” of a new retrovirus (the human immunodeficiency virus, or HIV for short); and the introduction of a new herpes-8 virus, the virus that causes Kaposi’s sarcoma, widely known as the “gay cancer” of AIDS. The taboo theory that AIDS is a man-made disease is largely based on research showing an intimate connection between government vaccine experiments and the outbreak of “the gay plague”
23

brownlie,

glasgow 02/04/2008 08:24:48
Grahamskit at 27

" The CTB will not be paid to the Scottish Executive, it never was and never will be"

The CTB was paid to the Scottish government when Labour were in power so how can you say it never was?

The CTB was paid to alleviate the worst effects of the unfair Council Tax on the poorest in Scotland. The poorest in Scotland are still here so how in all fairness can this be withdrawn.

As far as the allocation of £12 billion to England, to address prison shortages which is a UK problem, is concerned this is money that all parts of the UK paid for it is difficult to see why the Scottish allocation should be withdrawn.

Brown said that they were "trying to be fair to all parts of the country" and yet this UK Government are pouring money into the London tube system, the Olympics etc so the fairness aspect goes right out the window.

If you think that the Scottish Nation do not see the inherent unfairness of this then you are even less intelligent than your postings suggest.
24

langtonian,

scotus 02/04/2008 08:33:19
#28brownlie
The truth of the matter is that Salmond/Swinney illconceived budget continues to come apart at the seams.

They are in error, by producing a wish list rather tha a budget.

All the ducking and diving they continually empoly can not hide the fact,the budget they produced is a very dodgy document,put into the public domain, knowing fulll well that the Westminster grant was all they had was their lot.

In the 11 months they have been the Scottish Executive they ares ean to have been moving in ever decreasing circles, the laws of nature decree they will finnish up dissapearing up their own rectum.

25

Saoghal Beag,

02/04/2008 08:33:38
30, your point is? not even close to this thread.
26

eric,

02/04/2008 08:38:01
27.Myself and my family on both sides of border have voted labour ALL our lives,The best thing we ever done was vote SNP,My family in England are voting Tory at Nxt election.Who can blame them .
27

Stepford Nat..,

02/04/2008 08:38:21
Send Alex in - not only is he the greatest scot who ever drew breadth, he's also an MP, and is brilliant.
Btw, Labour is rubbish
28

Gdgy,

dndy 02/04/2008 08:44:53
Can't all you SNpites see that we have seen through this stage-managed and deliberate attempt to stir up an anti-Union story?
This sort of grandstanding will not convince the public that you are the best choice or that Scotland is necessarily better off independent

This is not a problem for Scotland or even the UK it is a problem for the SNP who have started to obviously fail Scotland so long as it suits their political purposes.
The can count won't budget is a disgrace and I, for one, find the idea of a SNP minister going cap-in-hand to Westminster to sort out his financial mess pathetic...
29

HughB,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 08:46:06
Let us have a vote of no confidence in Gordon Brown, and his interference in the Scottish Government.

30

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/04/2008 08:53:39
#31
You are quite simply wrong on this point. CTB is a reserved payment. The Scottish Executive have never received these monies nor indeed been responsible for them in any way.
31

Nikostratos,

02/04/2008 08:59:52
Typical snp stunt in one outstretched hand the begging bowl the other held behind their back holding a Dagger to attack the 'Union'.
32

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 09:17:47
38. Quite right. Even though CTB is identified in treasury documents specifically as part of the Scottish Block grant, the Scottish parliament should know its place and not worry about numbers, Westminster will do that for us.
33

Iain green,

Haddington 02/04/2008 09:25:02
OK chickadees; some facts.
Grahamski, Nikostratos, etc, etc, take note please, and accept chastisement.....again.

The Treasury document "Funding the Scottish Parliament, National Assembly for Wales and Northern Ireland Assembly: Statement of Funding Policy" (dated October 2007) states the following:

The Government intends that this population-based formula will apply to changes in almost all the expenditure under the control of the Scottish Parliament and National Assembly for Wales. It will not apply to changes in agriculture programmes 100 per cent funded by the EU. The Government will also want to consider whether this approach or another formula is appropriate in relation to provision for Council Tax Benefit and Housing Benefit which will both come within the Scottish Block for the first time after devolution; Housing Benefit is already within the Welsh Block, but, as in Scotland, COUNCIL TAX BENEFIT WILL COME WITHIN THE BLOCK for the first time.

Spending programmes forming part of the Scottish Block

Domestic agriculture, fisheries and food (after devolution)
Forestry (after devolution)
Industry, enterprise and training
Roads and transport
Housing
Other environmental services
Law, order and protective services
Education
Arts and libraries
Health
Social work services
Other public services
ESF
ERDF
Nationalised Industries (after devolution)

COUNCIL TAX BENEFIT (after devolution)

Local authority expenditure


2. In a Parliamentary Answer of December 1997 Alistair Darling said:

Mr. Darling: The Government will also want to consider whether this approach or another formula is appropriate in relation to provision for Council Tax Benefit and Housing Benefit which will both come within the Scottish Block for the first time after devolution; Housing Benefit is already within the Welsh Block, but, as in Scotland, COUNCIL TAX BENEFIT WILL COME within the Block for the first time.

Hansard 9th December 1997 : Column: 511




34

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/04/2008 09:26:39
#40
You are quite simply factually incorrect in your assertions too. It is becoming obvious that the SNP supporters can only argue their case by misrepresentation and misinformation.
Here is what the treasury's position:
"the Treasury did dispute his claim that the £400 million council tax benefit should be part of the Scottish block grant"
yet you claim the treasury specifically identify the CTB as part of the block grant. One question: Why lie?
35

morris,

edinburgh 02/04/2008 09:32:05
The 400 million (which is part of taxes paid by Scottsh taxpayers)and then returned as Council Tax Benefit was always part of the Scottish Block Grant until Labour removed it,and tried to justify not returning this sum to Scotland.THIS IS BLACKMAIL and DISHONEST.
If Scotlands legitimate government tries to introduce a LIT (which they were elected to do) then this is Westminster showing what a bunch of unprincipled lying toerags they are and seek to overule our elected parliament,and SCOTLAND SHOULD TAKE THIS PERSONALLY AND REMOVE WESTMINSTER PERMANENTLY.
Anyone who would seek to defend this should hang their head in shame,and shoud face arrest after independence.
This is dishonest in the extreme and in my eyes a crime against the Scottish nation in that it seeks to prevent the legitimate elected government doing what it was elected to do.
We further witness Margaret Curran stating that removal of prescription charges will disadvantage vulnerable people.It is impossible for free to disadvantage anybody, and prescriptions can only be issued by suitably qualified medical practitioners,so what Margaret Curram is saying is a complete and total load of absolute crap and anyone who believed it is THICK AS MINCE.

GET THIS SHOWER OF LYING BASKETS OUT
36

brownlie,

glasgow 02/04/2008 09:37:27
32 Langtonian

Yes, you are quite right the budget was ill-conceived. It was ill-conceived in that John Swinney beleived that the people of Scotland would receive fair treatment from the UK Labour Government. He, naively, thought that the UK government would not blatantly favour the English middle ground and would take any action to attempt to discredit the elected Scottish Government.

38 Grahamski,

No, I am not quite wrong - the funding was provided for the previous Scottish government. Despite that the community charge got progressive more punitive year after year. This funding would still have been available if Nulab were in power in Scotland in order to prop up their community charge.

37

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/04/2008 09:45:02
44
The funding was provided to Scottish local authorities to distribute not the Scottish Executive. Mr Swinney has been warned from the moment he proposed this ill-considered and uncosted policy that these monies were not available to him. The treasury have been consistent on this issue, the tactics of the nationalists in attempting to create division and strife rather than governing the country for everyone's benefit will be their undoing.
38

Miss H,

02/04/2008 09:45:37
Incidentally Grahamski 38 it is you that is wrong. Treasury policy is set out in a document called Scottish Parliament,. National Assembly for Wales. and. Northern Ireland Assembly. A Statement of Funding Policy. There have been 5 editions of this. Even in the latest edition dated October 2007 it states on page 39 that council tax benefit is part of the Scottish block. There have as I said been 5 editions of this document all of which clearly state that council tax benefit is part of the Scottish block.

You can verify this for yourself.

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/2/2/pbr_csr07_funding591.pdf

Anyway the whole article is somewhat misleading - you would think that the SNP was asking for additional cash for the LIT policy instead of money which is already received and which as we have seen is listed in successive Treasury policy documents as being part of the Scottish block.

The reality is that if the Treasury change their position, take council tax benefit out of the Scottish block and claw back the money that will be a political decision. Based on a desire not only to thwart the SNP Government to thwart the Scottish Parliament itself. Because after all the policy will only be implemented if it gains majority support in Parliament.

Those who are determined to defend this position should really think about it and whether that is a position they can in reality defend. Looking at it cynically I can see some advantages - because it will undoubtably increase support for independence. However I would rather that people supported independence for positive reasons rather than because they are angry at Westminster.
39

alanh,

ek 02/04/2008 09:49:13
nu lab and brown playiong to the galleries on this.

Is there a wee election coming up soon in england by any chance? Yep , so just before the council elections down south our glorious leader slaps down the greedy scots from taking westmonster money, even tho we contributed to it.

if any nu lab drone thinks that the CTB or prison money would have been held back if dishonest wendy was in power in holyrood their living in cloud coockoo land
40

Miss H,

02/04/2008 09:52:09
43 in fact Labour have not removed it. Maybe they intended to and the 2007 funding policy document I referred to does not list the items which make up the Scottish block as previous editions do.

Nevertheless on page 39 of the document it states that council tax benefit is part of the Scottish block. That edition of the document was of course printed in October 2007 after the SNP Government was elected.

So there is not really any doubt that Treasury funding policy places council tax benefit into the Scottish block. Any decision to change that will be politically motivated.

What is bizarre of course is that the political consequences of that can only benefit the SNP. If these people actually wanted to save the Union as they claim surely they would not be behaving in this way. Either they don't want to save the Union or they are too stupid to be in government. I don't know which is more likely.
41

Miss H,

02/04/2008 09:53:36
45 Wrong again. You are going to have to back down on this one or look a fool.
42

morris,

edinburgh 02/04/2008 09:54:33
45
The money is still being paid in the Weslsh block grant.

I do not care if you are a liar, or just an idiot.You seek to betray the truth and the Scottish people ,that is enough.
43

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/04/2008 09:56:30
#46
Miss H,
Treasury policy is set out unequivocally by the chief secretary to the treasury who states clearly that the policy of the treasury is that the CTB is not part of the block grant. To argue otherwise is quite frankly perverse.
Treasury policy is set by the elected government ministers responsible for finance. You can accuse them of many things however being unclear about the nature of CTB isn't one of them.
44

morris,

edinburgh 02/04/2008 10:03:54
48
I stand corrected in that my choice of words is premature at best.
They seek to withold this money,is probably a better choce,or at least generate publicity to that effect, to discredit and discourage the Scottish parliament, by putting obstacles in their path,which will hopefully be spun sufficiently to their benefit.The great advantage that Labour has is most of its support lack the education to reason whether what they are claiming is actually correct (or complete and total garbage).

Whether they can successfully do so remains to be seen,and I suspect they have no intention of doing so,and this is a futil attempt to gain brownie points and save them from a wipeout at the forthcoming elections down south,and I would expectcould be legally challengeable anyway, but I accept you are correct of course, (and not for the first time)!
45

Miss H,

02/04/2008 10:04:34
51 Morris is right - you are either a liar or a fool.

Treasury policy is set out in the document titled 'Scottish Parliament, National Assembly for Wales and Northern Ireland Assembly. A STATEMENT OF FUNDING POLICY'.

As of October 2007 when the fifth edition of this document was published CTB was part of the Scottish block.

If Alasdair Darling has decided to randomly change that policy, without consultation, without any announcement, it is for one reason only - to thwart the Scottish Government and Parliament. Because as I said this policy will only be implemented if it gains a majority in Parliament.
46

brownlie,

02/04/2008 10:06:56
45 Grahamski

So you admit the money was available for distribution. Why is it withdrawn now? Who, in fact, warned John Swinney that the money was not available and, considering the need is still there, why would it not be available.

The Treasury cannot be insistent on any issue. The Treasury consists of civil servants who will do what the government of the day tell them to do.

You should bear in mind that the SNP are the democratically elected Government of Scotland and this patently unfair and inconsistence treatment of Scotland by the UK government has moved far from political point-scoring and is now at the stage where the Scottish democratic process is being seriously compromised.


47

The Answer,

Glasgow 02/04/2008 10:07:36
Scots of which there are many, that cant afford to pay council tax receive CTB.

Scots of which there are many, that cant afford to pay LIT wont pay anything.

No change in the situation of many poor scots.

400 million is then going to subsidise the people who can afford to pay council tax or LIT.

Only in scotsland can the politics of the gutter prevail.

If and a very big if about CTB being part of the barnett formula, ask why scotland get's 400 million , but England (10 times larger population) gets only 3.1 billion. The fact is CTB is based on need, scotland needs more than England.
48

morris,

edinburgh 02/04/2008 10:20:34
55
The vast majority will benefit since the vast majority are poorer rather than richer.The system is not perfect I agree,but it replaces a system which is not perfect either,and when it benefits, for instance an average pensioner couple to the tune of around £90 per month (or thereabouts I cannot recall the exact figures)then that is well worth doing.
When you show a loyalty to the Labour Party on this you also betray the Scottish electorate,who stand to benefit here and anyone who would knowingly do that and interfere with the legitimate purposes of an elcted government at Holyrood should be held to account after independence.The law applies to everybody or it serves no purpose.
You say no change for many poor Scots. Thats arithmetically impossible for the vast majority under a PAYE system !RUBBISH!

The Scottish government were elected to govern and Westminster are disingenuous here and so are you.
49

PL,

02/04/2008 10:21:30
Brown has "slapped down" Nationalist demands? What is happening to language in Th#e Scotsman? Why not just headline the article: "Browno Bitch Slaps Salmond".
50

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 10:21:45
I like many others have searched the web over CTB, thanks especially to Miss H in pointing me in the right direction, and guess what I found an offical treasury document on the UK Government web page, it's a PDF document and it contains as already been stated that CTB is part of the SBG.

So the only conclusion I can come to is that the UKG and Treasury officials have been trying to alter the contents of the SBG and John Swinney and his officials have caught them in the biscuit tin.

Well done John, he also gave a very measured and precise interview on Newsnight, were of course nobody from the treasury would venture. Because Gordon Brewer would probably ask them about there own document.
51

Miss H,

02/04/2008 10:29:55
55 You are dead wrong there. There are vast numbers of people living on low or fixed incomes who are liable to pay council tax. Council tax takes up a much bigger proportion of their income than it does for people at the upper end of the income scale.

It is the low waged and those living on a modest occupational pension who will benefit the most from the SNP's LIT.

Yes - it doesn't make any difference to those living in poverty who are in receipt of benefit. The Scottish Government would need to be in control of the whole tax and benefit system to do that - and they are not.

If you think they should be you know what to do.
52

morris,

edinburgh 02/04/2008 10:34:11
55 continued

The Barnett Formula measures the allocation of funds within the UK.
London received 114% of what she contributed and was subsidised by everybody therefore.FACT (Governmnent figures)

An independent Scotland would not be in the UK.It does not apply therefore to the SNP argument of independence.

The money retained under independence is that which we currently contribute to Westminster.
That is the sum we should compare with what WE get.It has ABSOLUTELY BOG ALL TO DO WITH ENGLISH REGIONS UNLESS WE REMAIN IN THE UK, which you may have noticed is NOT what the SNP are talking about.

When you compare what an independent Scotland would have, a totally different picture emerges.
That 400 million did not go to Westminster for a kick off!Nor did the rest of the pro rata taxation raised in Scotland.Nor did the 236 billion taken from the Scottish sector of the North Sea,which becomes Scottish because it lies almost entirely in Scottish and Norwegian water.
There are apparently two ways to measure where the division should lie and both favour Scotland all the way to the bank ,with Norway retaining the rest of course.
53

Miss H,

02/04/2008 10:34:53
60 With respect that is rubbish. Of course people have different perceptions of different politicians and of different arguments.

But facts are not subject to the same kind of debate.

It is a fact that up until October 2007 official Treasury policy is that Council Tax benefit is part of the Scottish block. So that's not something that is subject to debate - it's there in black and white.

What is obviously subject to debate is whether the UK Government is right to change that policy because they don't agree with SNP policy.
54

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 02/04/2008 10:38:16
CTB does not go into the pockets of individuals. It goes to local authorities to compensate them for the situation that certain properties will not be contributing to council tax by reason of their occupants poverty. (Well at least where they can be bothered filling out the intrusive 40 pages of questions, deliberately so to minimise claiming)

By removing CTB funding, the effect would be that the tax shortfall will fall on the remaining council tax payers. Should council funding, presently Council Tax, be replaced by LIT, the removal of CTB results in a greater burden falling on Income Tax Payers viz-a-viz Council Tax Payers.

To retain CTB in England, though not in Scotland would mean the a higher overall burden falling on Scottish Tax payers compared with England. All UK tax payers would be giving a subsidy in England which Scotland would lose.

It may be technically correct to do that, but politically and morally it will be seen for what it is, a deliberate act by the Labour government at Westminster to be spiteful towards Scotland. When such things have happened in other parts of the world it has tended to increase demands for autonomy and independence. Labour are fools to think that such will not be the case here.
55

Nikostratos,

02/04/2008 10:43:30
Morris all posts take the Angry head off........you are seeming a bit...well..Umm......'MAD'.....

#63Miss h

A council tax on property and income tax levied on an individual doesnt seem to be the same to me.........
56

morris,

edinburgh 02/04/2008 10:51:41
66

Mad is when you put party loyalty before truth.
You will be judged for what you are, rest assured of that. You wont have long to wait either ,after Labour get gubbed royally down south and its only the start.Im not the one voting Labour and electing another Tory government.
NOW THAT IS MAD!
57

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 10:52:52
65 So although CTB is part of the SBG and therefore is part of the devolution settlement and therefore can by used by the government of Scotland in it's democratic mandate, does that mean if we have a different local taxation policy in Scotland that funding will go?

Can you point to that written anywhere? For example in the Scotland Act?? As John Swinney said if in England they choose a different LA tax will the current £4bn in CTB disappear also or will it be used as part of the new tax regime?
58

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 02/04/2008 10:54:48
#39.


Get of your knees.

Grow a spine.


Stop your sniveling and cringing.
59

McX,

02/04/2008 10:56:40
So any of the 324,000 people in Scotland or 12% of all Scottish tax payers who earn less than £18,500 per annum ready to see their tax double this week when Brown puts up taxes for low earners from 10% to 20% from Sunday April the 6th?

60

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 10:58:46
Before the Scottish elections Labour made it clear that electing an SNP government would result in a heavy tax burden for Scots.
What they did not make clear at the time was that as long as they were in power at Westminster they would ensure that this happened.
61

shivago8,

livingston 02/04/2008 10:58:56
God,that unwanted Scot with the limited power down in a foreign country speaking evil of us is surely laughable.
Please change his passport to BRIT/ENG and keep him the south side of Hadrians Dyke.
62

brownlie,

02/04/2008 11:00:01
65 Dancing Bear

who is pulling your chain? It is your understanding that CTB is exactly for CT and not for LIT. Does that mean that if John Swinney had called it Council Local Income Tax, which contains the two crucial words Council and Tax, then CTB would be available??. How pathetic is that argument?
63

morris,

edinburgh 02/04/2008 11:01:11
67
It seems to be beyond their comprehension that if it was part of the Block Grant (and still is in Wales and Northern Ireland apparently which proves the point beyond doubt)and documents exist to that effect, which many, (notbaly Miss H) have pointed out or listed,that it can only cease to be so if they have deliberately and knowingly sought to remove it!
Anyone who would defend such an anti Scottish stance does so ill advisedly,and cannot possibly justify their position.They should hang their heads in shame.Nevertheless they will argue rather than admit they are wrong.Why is a good question,but I cannot think of an answer.
64

Nikostratos,

02/04/2008 11:04:47
#68 Morris

Being Judged is one thing but what is the penalty for being found guilty of supporting the 'Union'
65

Miss H,

02/04/2008 11:09:31
65 Sure it is currently a council tax benefit. When we had the community charge it was community charge rebate. In Northern Ireland where they pay rates it is a rates rebate. It is the sum of money paid to local authorities to compensate for people whose incomes do not go above the threshhold where they become liable to pay local taxatioj - whatever form that taxation takes.

In any case the argument being made is that CTB has never been part of the Scottish block. That is demonstrably not the case. Up until October 2007 it was part of the Scottish block.

If people want to make the argument that it should not be - that Westminster should be allowed to change the rules which have applied throughout devolution in order to prevent the devolved government implementing a policy they do not agree with then go agead and make that case.

But in doing so you will also be making the case for independence.
66

,

02/04/2008 11:24:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
67

The Answer,

Glasgow 02/04/2008 11:26:08

56 million population England + Scotland
51 million population England (91%)
5 million population Scotland (9%)

CTB Expenditure England + Scotland

£36.104 billion CTB expenditure 1992-2006 outturn England + Scotland

£32.046 billion (88.76%) England
£4.058 billion (11.24%) Scotland

If Barnett is supposed to apply, either the sum for England is short of 8 Billion, or Scotland has been over paid 800 million




Need Excel to view
tinyurl.com/2qgeev

68

brownlie,

glasgow 02/04/2008 11:28:29
75 Dancing bear

How does pointing out to you the absurdity of the UK government's position make me a low-life. As this is line with the rest of your opinions I really should ignore it. I hope in your real life that none of your acquaintances do not dare to disagree with you.
69

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

02/04/2008 11:32:16
I well remember that Gordon Brown from university days and the period when he was Edinburgh University's first student rector. He was a very naughty boy then -and doesn't seem to have changed since.
70

Grahamski,

02/04/2008 11:33:43
#67
Wardog,
Treasury documents? I can do better than that, just look at the article above and you can see the chief secretary of the treasury unequivcocally state that the CTB is not part of the block grant. Why bother with obscure documents when you have treasury officials stating quite clearly the policy of the treasury?
It really doesn't make sense for you to contadict policy which has been so clearly explained by the responsible ministers.
71

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 11:34:07
77 Yes it's hypothetical but if you arguing the principle for Scotland then the same goes for England.

Also you cannot argue that CTB is only for CT as it is part of the SBG, that any government in Scotland can decide to spend as they were elected to do so, again can you point me to where it is written in Scotland Act that they cannot do this?
72

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 11:36:13
Fiscal Independence would of course solve these little stramashes.

Why wouldn't the Labour Party keep those south of the border and those north of it happy by bringing it in? Call the nats bluff and keep the home counties happy.

Why wouldn't they?

Something smells and it's more than oil and London weighting
73

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 11:38:30
85. Obscure documents!! Really, so in a court of law Yvette Cooper will say no CTB is not part of the SBG, the Judge then produces the document and asks the simple question. Any claim that Yvette Cooper makes must be based on documentary evidence and guess what!!
74

Dougie Douglas,

02/04/2008 11:38:43
#72

Exactly, well said
75

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 11:42:51
Grahamski

Nonsense. The UK treasury have ,systematically, under political pressure (we hope), subverted the truth about Scotland's fiscal position.

It should be pretty easy to clear up your little stoush with Wardog (and taking the word of a labour party minister is not the way).
76

Miss H,

02/04/2008 11:44:18
85 No Grahamski. Nobody is quoted directly in that article. The only person referred to is 'a Treasury source' who states that 'the Treasury did dispute his claim that the £400 million council tax benefit should be part of the Scottish block grant.'

Council tax benefit has been part of the Scottish block grant throughout the period of devolution. It's not the SNP saying that - it is the Treasury itself. In black and white.

If it is now proposed to remove CTB from the block grant then people will draw certain conclusions from that. Conclusions which will benefit the SNP but will damage the Union.

So it's a completely counter productive tactic for you unionists to adopt.

Good. Keep it coming!


77

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 11:47:02
85. Quite right Grahamski, you stand your ground! Just because 5 treasury documents setting out what is and is not part of the Scottish block funding from 1998 - 2007 specifically identify CTB as part of the block grant, that does not mean it ever was!

78

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 11:49:45
92. Now now Miss H. You sound like a typical SNP ingrate. How many of us have not had a relationship falter because our partner simply did not realise that they belonged to us, and that we would take all their money and hand them back some for housekeeping, then change the amount because we disagreed! You SNP types need to realise that Westminster knows best. What business does the Scottish parliament have trying to change things in Scotland? These Scottish Parliament types need to realise they can do what they like, as long as its what Westminster wants.
79

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/04/2008 12:03:02
Wardog,
Treasury policy is set by the government, ie the Labour Government so your statement; "you might believe everything that Labour say, I prefer to read the official policies of the Treasury" makes no sense, Government ministers and spokespeople are the official treasury and they have been unequivocal over the nature of the CTB. You must see this.
As regards the issues I will get real. I believe the most effective way to collect tax is to use as wide a net as possible. This should include property alongside wealth and income. I shudder when I see the SNP indulge in the kind of gesture politics beloved of the Trotskyist Militant Tendency when they seized control of Liverpool and promptly sacked their entire workforce - just to make a political point.
As Mr Kinnock so forcefully reminded them: You can't play politics with peoples jobs....Mr Swinney should realise this.
80

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:20:49
97. Quite right. Labour own the voters, and just because the dog whistle didn't work this time, when the voters get their ears syringed they will hear it and go back where they belong. We don't hold with change, thinking and such!
81

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:21:44
96. You can't play politics with peoples jobs! Quite right and great point. Closing 4000 post offices, closing Remploy factories and sacking 12,000 DWP workers is not playing politics. Good point.
82

The Answer,

Glasgow 02/04/2008 12:23:42
"morris,edinburgh 02/04/2008 10:34:11"

"Nor did the 236 billion taken from the Scottish sector of the North Sea,which becomes Scottish because it lies almost entirely in Scottish and Norwegian water."

236 billion?

Please try and use facts, what's in your own mind makes you look very silly indeed.

£153,924 billion Total from all sectors of the north sea 1968 - 2009

£68,369 billion Corporation Tax
£55,738 billion Petroleum revenue tax
£21,712 billion Royalty
£4,420 Supplementary petroleum duty
£3,685 billion Gas Levy (Net of CT clawback)

tinyurl.com/2hqu9b


83

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 12:28:16
96 & 97 Desperation creeping in there folks!! Wishful thinking. If as you rightly say policy is set by the government, it begs the question why is it that there own documentation does not back this up??

A minister / source can say what ever they like, however the legal / democratically defined of what this means has to be written in offical documents.

Your position e.g. CTB is this can overriden and changed by the minister without consulatation to any other parties to the agreement e.g. SBG, which then renders the current legal / democratic document that is used in the devolution process invalid?? I am I correct is this your argument?
84

Stu,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 12:29:23
IT seems to be that Salmond and co play the tune and the others dance to it.

If westminster manage to remove the CTB from the block grant than that gives more wweight to AS that Westminster is penalizing Scotland for voting agaisnt them .

If westminster do not remove it and AS and co get the LIT through than Westminster will have some hard questions from the english about why the Scots have a fairer system and the english dont.

Everything westminster do seem to aid AS and his goals. When eventually they wake up to their mistakes SCotland will be so much nearer independence or full fiscal autonomy.

85

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 12:30:32
Mr Answer do you have an answer to the point that CTB is part of the SBG and therefore at the disposal of any Scottish Government, without interference from Westminister?
86

Stu,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 12:32:34
#95

WA could not be that stupid to go for a no confidence vote. The SNP could apstain from it , force another election where Labour would get blamed and the SNP would get even more votes in the parliment meaning they would be closer to getting the vote on independence.


Does anyone else think the Libs are softening to the SNP and trying to further themselves from Labour and the GB dictatorship
87

Conway,

02/04/2008 12:33:33
I read this in todays online Canadian Globe and Mail replace Bloc Québécois,with SNP ,or Plaid and what can I say ? it looks very familiar to the UK situation...
Tories plan to bolster Quebec in Constitution
If Conservatives win a majority, party says it's willing to reopen federal blueprint, building on declaration of Québécois as a nation
DANIEL LEBLANC
From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
April 2, 2008 at 2:00 AM EDT
OTTAWA — The Harper government is telling Quebec that if the Conservatives win a majority in the next election, they will look to reopen the Constitution and give more meaning to their recognition of Quebeckers as a nation.
Emphasizing the Conservative receptiveness to “Quebec's historical demands,” Labour Minister Jean-Pierre Blackburn raised the possibility of winning 30 to 40 seats in the province, up from the current 11.
“The recognition of the Quebec nation within Canada allows us to think that we can put some meat around it, and that a majority government is more able to do a number of things, while being respectful of all of the provinces,” Mr. Blackburn said in an interview.
“When you're a minority, you never know what can happen, so it's not obvious to do that type of thing in the actual context,” Mr. Blackburn said on the topic of constitutional change.


Labour Minister Jean-Pierre Blackburn, left, and Prime Minister Stephen Harper greet the crowd at a Fete Nationale celebration in Roberval, Que, in June, 2007. (The Canadian Press)
The Conservatives are treading carefully to manage expectations and avoid a backlash in the rest of Canada. Still, they are hoping to make significant gains as a federalist, pro-Quebec alternative to the Bloc Québécois, which now holds 48 of the 75 ridings in the province.
Mr. Blackburn also sent a clear signal that his party is moving to capitalize on recent Liberal infighting, in which party leader Stéphane Dion faces dissent over a lack of election readiness in Quebec. The Liberals have 11 seats i
88

Miss H,

02/04/2008 12:39:08
96 What he says makes perfect sense. Possibly you do not understand how government works. Whether at Scottish Parliament, Westminster or even local level government has policies which determine among other things how funds are allocated. There are procedures for changing those policies – indeed that is what we elect people for, to decide the policies. However there is as I said a procedure carried out by officials - council officers at local level or civil servants at national level.

We have seen that throughout the period of devolution and up until October 2007 CTB was – according to the policy statement published by the Treasury – part of the Scottish block. Now arguments are being made that it is not. Your opinion is that any minister can change any policy on the hoof, without consultation with parliament or any other body and without any announcement being made. That is not in fact the way that government operates except in banana republics.

And of course such decisions are open to challenge and I have no doubt will be challenged. Even UK Cabinet ministers have to operate within the framework of the law.
89

Conway,

East Lothian 02/04/2008 12:40:07
PART TWO http://www.theglobeandmail.com/
The Liberals have 11 seats in the province and are struggling to organize in other ridings.
“The Liberal Party will not be one of the desired options by the population,” Mr. Blackburn asserted. “People will choose between the Bloc Québécois and us.”
Mr. Blackburn is one of the most nationalist Quebec ministers in the government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper, and he will play a key role in the next election as one of the government's main spokesmen outside of the province's big cities.
After the old Progressive Conservative Party took 63 seats in Quebec in 1988, the party fell to one seat in 1993 and, under the Conservative banner in 2004, was shut out.
To win about half of the Quebec seats, Mr. Harper will need to attract the voters who have allowed the Bloc Québécois to survive for 18 years as an opposition party.
Mr. Blackburn spoke positively, albeit guardedly, of launching further constitutional talks with the provinces if the Conservatives form a majority.
A number of constitutional changes require the assent of all of the provinces, but leadership on the matter usually comes from Ottawa.
Mr. Blackburn said the Conservatives are “much more receptive to Quebec's historical demands” than the Liberals, using language from the days of the failed Meech Lake accord that described Quebec as a distinct society.
Mr. Blackburn said the province's separatist forces are in disarray after the Bloc's provincial counterpart, the Parti Québécois, shelved plans to hold a speedy referendum on sovereignty if it forms the next government in Quebec City.
“The Bloc's presence here is less and less justifiable and explainable,” he said.
The Conservatives have long flirted with Quebec nationalists. Former Progressive Conservative leader Robert Stanfield alluded to the two-nation concept in the 1968 election, while Brian Mulroney's coalition in the 1980s included former separatists who were attracted to his proposal to bring
90

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/04/2008 12:41:49
101
"I am I correct is this your argument?"
It seems something of a favourite tactic of the nationalist posters to misrepresent their opponents views and argue on that rather than the facts.
Anyway, my argument is simple. The treasury have never seen the CTB as part of the SBG. They have consistently stated this. When the Sunday Herald ran a story about the document the treasury rejected the spin put on it by both the newspaper and SNP.
Like very many things the SNP believe that if they say something often enough it becomes true. The fact of the matter is that if you say something often enough you sound as dull as you no doubtedly are...
91

Calum Crubag,

02/04/2008 12:44:55
London Labour need the £500m to pay for taxis for Martin's wife.
92

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/04/2008 12:45:54
106
No, my view is that the SNP are mistaken in their interpretation of official documents. A view shared by those responsible for drafting them...
93

Calum Crubag,

02/04/2008 12:46:57
#108- Grahamski, it's good as a socialist you agree that this money would be better spent on Scottish schools, health service and public transport rather than on London's many foreign wars and other such warmongering British Nationalist expenditure.

Surely only Tories would suggest otherwise?
94

The Answer,

Glasgow 02/04/2008 12:47:10
"103 Tormod,Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 12:30:32
Mr Answer do you have an answer to the point that CTB is part of the SBG and therefore at the disposal of any Scottish Government, without interference from Westminister?"

Correct , it's not part of the barnett formula, I wish it was, England would be due an 8 billion parity payment..
95

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 12:48:51
108 I am not dull I am just asking a question of you.

I was asking you a question so I know where your argument lies is that so bad? I am not mispresenting you at all I am asking you to clarify your argument

So again if that is the offical policy why is in not recorded in there own documentation.

For example in a court of law what would have greater weight in evidence what Yvette Cooper says in the witness box of the offical documents of her own department.

What do you think?
96

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 12:51:03
112 Again if it is not then why is is stated that it is in there own documentation. So the document from the treasury is wrong / misleading / illegal / invalid / not worth the paper it's written on.

That's your argument is is?
97

Miss H,

02/04/2008 12:51:56
108 The Treasury in fact has consistently stated that CTB is part of the Scottish block. I refer you to the following statements of policy.

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/2/2/pbr_csr07_funding591.pdf

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/6/E/Funding_the_Scottish_Parliament_National_Assembly_for_Wales(296kb).pdf

http://archive.treasury.gov.uk/docs/2000/sfp1807.htm
98

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 12:52:56
110 If those who draft the document agree it is wrong why has it stayed in the document?
99

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:01:00
108. Grahamski "The treasury have never seen the CTB as part of the SBG" - great point. The treasury explicity including CTB in the Scottisg block grant in its documents from 1998-2007 was just a cunning ploy to lull the SNP into thinking the treasury listed the CTB in the blcok grant. The real documents, which in fact said CTB wasn't, were hidden in Anne Widecomb'es underwear drawer until now.
100

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:02:32
115. We won't be fooled by actual documents from the Treasury Miss H. We all know that the inclusion of CTB in the treasury list of what is in the blcok grant was a typo, or in fact caused by a photocopying error.

We unionists will not be swayed by arguments based on fact and actual documents.
101

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 13:08:48
117 & 118 Sir / Madam you are a crystal of brilliance in a dark world myth! :-)
102

Tormod,

Auld 02/04/2008 13:10:50
118 A better expression for me to use is "You sunk my Battleship".
103

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 13:15:09
120 Well that settles it then, of course how stupid of me. A source said I see are you seriously asking me to believe that!! In your opinion how much of the UK treasury documentation can we decide to ignore?

I look forward to that source coming to Parliament UK / Scotland and repeating that in front of a live camera and then being questioned in public.
104

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 13:17:28
Or even better why not a court of law!!
105

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 13:18:51
What apologies!! We have nothing to apologise about.
106

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 13:20:49
Again mr bear, so the document is invalid because of the "Source" or Yvette Cooper said the opposite, really!!
107

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/04/2008 13:21:50
118
They are not 'actual documents' they are misinterpreted discussion documents, the people responsible for drafting them have rejected your interpretation of them and explained the treasury policy. This has been explained time and time again. To deliberately misconstrue once may be seen as an honest mistake. To continually and deliberatley peddle an untruth is risible.
108

brownlie,

glasgow 02/04/2008 13:23:19
grahamski,

Why has the Treasury, under the direction of the First Minister of the Treasury. the Rt Honorable Gordon Brown, suddenly decided this year that the CTB will not be available for Scotland. It has always, previously, been available without any fuss. Is Gordon Brown of the opinion that, suddenly, those in his own country are so prosperous that he can with-hold the money or is it to, spitefully, try and thwart the Scottish Governmen
109

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:31:14
132. Great point, Mr Swinney did in fact state that CTB was not part of Scotland's block grant, by the rather cryptic and twisted medium of saying it was, and using the treasury's own documents which say so it as some kind of "support". These Nats are slippery.
110

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 13:31:38
129 That is an absolute cracker, well this apparent "discussion document" is used to produce the Scottish Government budget, so then every Scottish Budget passed since 99 has no legal basis in law then.

I can phone the police and report that somebody has been taken monies out of my account because if this isn't an actual document then the figures in it are not actually real and the money collected from me via Council tax is theft because the figures used to calculate my council tax doesn't exist??

Do you have a list or a name / email address of the folk you wrote of so I can contact them please.
111

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:33:25
129. Grahamski, great point. The 4 treasury documents from 1998-2007 which explicitly list what is and is not part of the block grant are not in fact documents. They are "discussion documents" - "discussion documents" differ from "actual documents" in that their contents can be ignored when onconvenient. WHy do the Nats not grasp the finer points of documentation! Surely any idiot can see the treasury listed CTB as part of Scotland's block grant for 9 years as mere whimsy!
112

Grahamski,

02/04/2008 13:34:50
131
They haven't suddenly decided anything - the treasury's position is consistent. Don't blame me for the SNP dishonestly misquoting government documents. A misquotation, incidentally which was immediately corrected by the treasury but for political reasons Mr Swinney has felt the need to keep peddling these lies.
The bottom line is this: this administration has recieved more money than any other executive, indeed they get double what Mr Dewar's administration did. They chose to spend it like drunken sailors, on cheap populist gimmicks. The poorest and most vulnerable in our society will pay for this largesse, meanwhile the nats invent grievances and fights to deflect attention from their incompetence.
113

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:35:37
134. Grahamski refers to "Discussion documents" quite rightly. Thus, Treasury "documents" that list CTB belonging to the Scottish block should in fact be thought of not as "documents" but as discussion documents, just like those singing birthday cards you get are not really cards.
114

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:36:44
136. Great post. Do you think anyone will see through our use of "the vulnerable" when our Westminster gov is closing Remploy factories and post offices?
115

brownlie,

glasgow 02/04/2008 13:38:52
Dancing Bear,

Please accept my grovelling apology/ies. If the newspaper said that it must be true. I remember the Herald quoting Tony Blair as saying that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and that we were 45 minutes away from attack. Even when he posted armed troops on my road in London I, foolishly, did not believe it. I should have invested all my money on an air-raid shelter but, foolishly, went to the pub instead.
116

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 13:42:36
136 Jings bitterness laddie bitterness!!
117

Andrew Allan,

02/04/2008 13:55:36
Isn't it strange; the act of union was meant to not show any favourism to the english, and yet we see extra funding for prisons in england and wales, but withheld from the people of Scotland. This to me shows westminster using methods which should allow us to break this unequal contract.
For those who do not yet know, two thirds of Scots want independance.
118

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 13:56:25
Well done defenders of Scottish Democracy, well done.

Because this is greater than Labour in London and the SNP in Edinburgh, what would Grahamski say it it was the torries in London trying to do this to a Lib\Lab government. My response would be the same because at it's heart is an attack on the democracy of Scotland.
119

brownlie,

glasgow 02/04/2008 13:59:52
Dancing Bear,

Did I ever tell you that Sir Rhodes Boyson once bought me a drink and called me "my boy". This is true even though it was never in the paper. We were talking about a true story in a paper about some comedian eating a hamster. How gross these comedian are!! You would have been so thrilled, I know I was!!
120

walter,

02/04/2008 14:02:07
I read the first couple of post and thought amazing.

#1 Fact: Brown has not been elected Prime Minister of the UK by the electorate.

Fact the UK electorate has never elected a PM, the PM is the leader of the party that holds the majority of seats or who is elected by the members of the house if in coalision.

#3 It is quite bizarre and totally unacceptable that UK Government ministries are receiving funding from the reserves for use only in England (to which all British tax payers have contributed) in order to thwart the operation of the Barnett formula for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

From the article: The finance secretary had asked to meet Ms Cooper to call for £120 million in funds to go to Scotland after prisons in England and Wales received a £1.2 billion boost to cope with overcrowding. As the money has come from reserves, the Treasury has argued there are no Barnett consequentials, so Scotland will not get the extra share.
Note: after prisons in England and Wales received a £1.2 billion boost to cope with overcrowding.
But what does #3 come out with, receiving funding from the reserves for use only in England (to which all British tax payers have contributed) in order to thwart the operation of the Barnett formula for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Wales has been moved from getting it to not getting it so an attack can be made on England.


121

Miss H,

02/04/2008 14:09:30
Dancing Bear if you do not look out you will be joining the ranks of the unionist loonies.
122

Grahamski,

02/04/2008 14:13:04
141
Unfortunately some Scots can't even spell independence...
123

brownlie,

glasgow 02/04/2008 14:21:42
147 Grahamski

Shocking, is it not? I blame it on the Government. Have a look at posting at the posting at 136 by someone called Grahamski who has a curious way of spelling "received". Trousers down and six of the best for him!!!

Dancing Bear,

I'll see thee - a good Yorkshire expression. Mind Goldilocks does not eat your ice-cream.
124

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 02/04/2008 14:21:42
147 Folk might not spell it incorrectly but at least they understand what it measns, like democracy. I might not agree with you but I respect your right to that decision.

As in the UK government might not like the SNP government but they have to respect there right to do so.
125

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/04/2008 14:27:47
148
A mis-type rather than a mis-spell, I assure you.
126

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:27:52
147. It is only to be expected. Not everyone has the advanced spelling skills to spell "impermissible" and "unintentional" either.
127

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:29:07
150. Quite right. Just like the Treasury mis-typed CTB in the list of what was included in the Scottish Block grant, 5 times from 1998-2007. We Unionists must improve our typing, even if we are only typing "discussion documents"!
128

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/04/2008 14:32:50
152
That's it. Keep telling the same lie over and over and eventually it'll be believed, right? Well, it worked for the nazis....
129

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 02/04/2008 14:33:17
With regard to my original comment #3, I observe that the payment from the reserves is also covering prison costs in Wales. That does not detract from my comment that prisons are a devolved matter and that under the Barnett rules a conseqential payment should have followed for Scotland.

The use of reserve funds are for emergencies only and not to be applied for ordinary expenditure. Scotland has pro rata a much higher prison population than England and Wales and as great a problem with overcrowding. Matching funding should have been made to Scotland.

But I guess we are witnessing a new government policy here, that of using reserves to meet exceptional payments to England to circuvent having to make a similar payment for Scotland.

It reminds me of the foot & mouth outbreak when reserve funding was denied the Scottish sheep farmers whose flocks were stuck on the hills. We were told then that it was not an emergency and that any payment which the Scottish government wished to make had to come from its ordinary budget, and that was where Richard Lochhead had to take the money in order to prevent the entire collapse of the sheep industry.

England receives from reserves and Scotland does not. This policy has been devised with one end in mind - to punish Scotland for having an SNP adminsitration.
130

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:40:11
153. Grahamski, nice one, great point, but we should save the hysterical references to Nazi's for later when we are really looking foolish! And I agree, it is ridiculous of the Nats to take 5 Treasury documents that list CTB in the Scottish block grant as an indication that the CTB was in it. Those documents were produced to serve as disposable table clothes and doily's for our last Unionist finance committee meeting!
131

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:40:59
153. Hyy Grahamski, should we try and work Stalin and Mugabe into the discussion later? That will really confuse the Nats?
132

brownlie,

glasgow 02/04/2008 14:43:01
Grahamski,

Talking about newspapers "Rejoice, Rejoice" or "Gotcha" - which of these was your reaction to the fact that the Treasury have from today abolished the 10% rate of income tax which will adversely affect all those earning less than £18,000? The good news is that this gives the Treasury additional funding to bribe the English or can contribute to weapons of mass destruction.

Mrs Balls had no comment to make.
133

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:44:02
153. Hey I been thinking, how come no one believes there is WMD in Iraq then? I think we need to rethink the whole "keep telling a lie over and over again and people believe it strategy" - now, pass me that £5000 tax bill, Scotland too poor for independence script.
134

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR,

with lord zebedee and co 02/04/2008 14:44:09
Vote for Scottish Labour and we promise to get (rid) of the following..

Abolished prescription charges

Saved local A&E units

Backdated the NHS pay award.

Began a pilot for free School meals

Given equal rights to children of asylum seekers

Doubled the international aid budget

Ended ring fencing of council spending

Cuts in business rates

The council tax freeze

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR TO SCRAP ALL THE ABOVE POLICES THAT THE SNP HAVE IMPLEMENTED.

Scottish Labour will promise you a say on what colour our red rose will be at the next party conference in Wick.

Now is that a good incentive or is it a good incentive to vote SCOTTISH LABOUR?
135

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:45:13
157. Rubbish. Just because Labour is reducing inheritance tax for millionaire's does not mean it is not concerned about exploiting vulnerbale 2 year olds in attcking the SNP! Those 2 year olds might inherit something one day!
136

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR,

blooms by yah or by yarn 02/04/2008 14:46:41
Now stand back......its showtime........


ITS LORD ZEBEDEDE....BOING BOING BOING BOING.....
137

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR,

blooms by yah.. 02/04/2008 14:51:05
We in the Scottish Labour can confirm that Lord Zebedee was on News Night, this is what he had to say.

"I utterly despise the cyber Nat's blogging away on the Scotsman and the Herald News papers. Do those Nat's know the damage they are doing to our poll ratings"?

"Boing boing boing"
138

john z,

edinburgh 02/04/2008 14:53:08
Gordon Brown and Labour will lose out big time on these types of things. In effect, he is doing the work of the nationalists.

Are the political advisers in London so out of touch on Scottish feeling on these types of things? Scotland is not yet independent, and as such under the current Barnett provisions, should receive the money from Westminster.

I'm looking forward to the next english parliament election. Hopefully, we will see Darling, Brown et.al asked the drinking hemlock question by Paxman, in the style of Portillo.

Turncoats, the lot of them.
139

,

02/04/2008 14:57:26
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140

john z,

edinburgh 02/04/2008 14:59:00
Watch Brown in any interview or speech, he just cannot say the words Scottish Government, he employs every other alternative. His latest favourite, is SNP administration, nationalist administration or scottish administration.

Quite pathetic really. Speaks volumes about the contempt he has for the democratic electoral process in Scotland.
141

brownlie,

02/04/2008 15:14:05
160 Union

Talking about rubbish - the SNP have re-intoduced weekly rubbish collections. Beat that!! You have to be a bit more careful with your spelling the SNP Spelling Police are watching - after all we gave them their pay rise before the English police got theirs! We have no time to investigate Wendy but you are on our pink list.
142

,

02/04/2008 15:23:30
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143

,

02/04/2008 15:24:04
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144

Sunrise,

Fife 02/04/2008 15:49:54
Miss H

Thanks you for that.

It has been apparent to me for a long about Labour:

1) That spin is what these Labour people are about. They bang on about something, anything, long enough then it will stick. EG The SNP or " all these moaning Jocks" as the Sun might say, have the begging bowl out again.

2) If they get asked a question that they do not want to answer then they will talk about any issue they like as long as it shifts the agenda on to something that portrays the people asking in a poor light. EG John Swinney calls a meeting about money for prisons but labour talks about funding local government in Scotland and then tells big lies about it.

It always surprises me that people fall for this. But perhaps they don't anymore.
145

brownlie,

glasgow 02/04/2008 15:52:09
168 Bird of Prey

Perhaps if you read previous post you would know that I know exactly what point Union is Best is putting across and, if I may say so, he does it most impressively and I hope that he carries on in the same vein. I rather think that the Bear and Grahamski are less impressed by their new ally!!
146

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA........captured from Mexico 1845 02/04/2008 16:15:28
Hey Dudes ,
If the SNP is begging from Westminster now , who will they beg from, if they con the Scots voters into going independent.

GC
147

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 16:29:18
173. Hey GC, Great Post! Its exactly as we say, the SNP want to beg from Westminster, which is why they want to end dependency on Westminster! Erm, no that doesn't seem right, I'll do it over in a minute when I have thought that through!
148

Truely English,

02/04/2008 16:42:27
It seems the Nationalists have very poor arguments for splitting Britain up. Their main arguments seem to be a dislike of English people and minorities.
Why do we rarely ever see even supportive arguments for Scotland its culture traditions or things that make the place distinctive. No, no, that seems to much for them. Being positive rather than negative never rates a jot from them on hardly any occassion.

I am grateful that such a drab existence does not befall the rest of Britain.
149

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 02/04/2008 16:44:33
#173

So you'd prefer it if a Scottish government just rolled over and played dead? At least the SNP do not just follow the dictates of Westminster. Or do you belong to that group of unionists who still hope that Holyrood is going to disappear?
150

brownlie,

glasgow 02/04/2008 16:58:02
175 True English

If you are going to use a name like that at least try and live up to it. The myth that the SNp are anti-English appears to be very much in your own head. Can I suggest that you read what others have written before generalisations especially false ones.

The negativity generated by the two previous Scottish governments is in complete contast to the optimism felt in Scotland under the present government.

151

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 02/04/2008 17:07:13
Gordon Brown is a traitor to Scotland.
152

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 02/04/2008 17:32:07
The Labour government are apparently closing the Glasgow passport office for postal applications and making 25% of the staff redundant.

The government seems to be determined to close down anything in Scotland which an independent country would require to function. The jobs of public workers in Labour's Glasgow heartlands are expendable if it can spike the SNP's ambitions.

The Union dividend is a total myth. Gordon Brown is determined to pursue his Scottish scorched earth policy at all costs. As one Mugabe door closes a Gordon Brown door opens.
153

LABOUR WERE ELECTED BY 22% OF THE UK FACT,

02/04/2008 17:37:52
The Labour Government claimed that being returned to office for a third term for the first time ever showed the remarkable achievements of New Labour and the continued unpopularity of the Conservatives. Nevertheless, Labour's vote declined to 35.3%, the lowest share of the popular vote to form a government with a majority in the UK House of Commons in history

Labour were elected by 22% of the UK=FACT
154

LABOUR WERE ELECTED BY 22% OF THE UK FACT,

02/04/2008 17:43:57
#182 FACT
155

Miss H,

02/04/2008 18:31:09
175 Bizarre comments.

The case for Scottish independence is entirely about what is in our best interests.

It is not in Scotland's interests to be part of the UK - we would be better off as an independent country.

Nothing to do with England and you have not read any anti English comments from any member of the SNP.

Why do you think it is so weird to want to be independent? MOST COUNTRIES ARE.

What do you think makes Scotland different from Ireland or Finland or Norway or Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria and so on? Do you think their independence requires explanation?

There's only one argument against independence - that our interests would be better served being part of the Union. But I don't actually see many people making that argument, do you?
156

The Answer,

Glasgow 02/04/2008 18:45:26
Miss H,

Remember independence for scotland means England getting rid of a burden.

100 UK passport jobs to go at glasgow is a good sign of the barnett formula starting to kick in, thank you snp.



Better to wind down UK wide jobs in scotland sooner rather than later.


From the BBC website

About 100 jobs are to go at the Glasgow Passport office, if plans are approved.

The Identity and Passport Service (IPS) said the proposals, which could see up to a quarter of Glasgow jobs axed, were needed to "prepare for future changes".



tinyurl.com/36zuoe



157

Calum Crubag,

02/04/2008 18:52:28
#175- Truely English - I agree! We should be more like you and only bear grudges against the Germans ( who YOU fought single handedly in 3 world wars, including 1966), the French and Argentinians (notable as NO Scots were in the British - what? - Army at the time). As to the Irish (thick), Welsh (bolshy and have the temerity to have their own tongue), Asylum seekers and other immigrants, well don't the English just love them? Then there's the whinging 'rebellious' Scots wanting back their oil money. The cheek of it all...
158

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 18:58:51
175. Truely

hey, loving your work. Love the whole fabricated "hate the English and minorities" riff, great stuff. The more we tell people that the SNP are just improving services (as Foulkes said "deliberately") out of a misplaced dislike of the English, the more people will see through their whole free presciptions, council tax freeze, business rate cuts, A&E departments nonsense.

Hey, just in case a pesky Nat asks, can you give me one example of an SNP politician being anti-English or anti-immigrant? That will smite them. Damned clever of the Nats to have English and ethnic minority MSPs and stuff to blunt our attack, but we will out-smear!
159

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 19:00:05
189. Rubbish. We Brits dislike the French and Germans for valid reasons, unlike the SNP whom we have decided to invent dislike the English for poor reasons!
160

The Answer,

Glasgow 02/04/2008 19:02:05
189 Calum Crubag,02/04/2008 18:52:28

Why dont the ethnics want to come to scotland, is it because white scots love to live off benefits?

tinyurl.com/2mkdpd
161

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 19:12:22
192. Great post, great points. The more we denigrate Scotland, the less likely people will be to vote for independence. Lazy, scrounging, whining, Westminster-begging bowl, cap in hand plebs!

Great stuff!
162

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02/04/2008 19:13:25
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163

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 19:18:35
194. Great post, great points. But (ponders), if the Tories are going to drop the Barnett formula, and as England is 91% of the votes for a UK general election and a bit Tory, does that not mean the Barnett formula will get dropped? And Scotland's funding will be slashed, in the Union? Jeez, with all due respect, you are not helping the Unionist cause here.
164

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 19:21:06
194. Great post, great points. But the pesky Nats keep asking me why Labour vote with the Tories agfainst council house building and for Iraq/ Trident? If the SNP are the Tories allies, why do Labour vote with them and the SNP against them? Is too complex a riff, can we not just say Scotland will be like ALbania? And, half the memos I get are to say the SNP are left wing, and the other half tell me to say they are right wing - the whole Unionist strategy room is hungover yet again! Get on it! We need coherent scares and guff!
165

Media 1,

cape town 02/04/2008 19:37:33
The SNP are doing one thing for certain,and that is living up to that old myth that we are tight!
When England, Wales and N.Ire are giving, there is the SNP taking! Unbelievable, absolutely unbelievable! Thank goodness we have 3 solid partners to look after us whilst we are in the hands of this Freedom Fighting movment known as the SNP.
166

brownlie,

Buckie 02/04/2008 19:39:11
188 Dancing

Well spotted, Dancing, you have noted that the Scots have a monopoly of work-shy layabouts with the remains of a fish supper on their shoulder. Statistics show there is ten times as much procreation goes on in England than in Scotland but that might have come from a dodgy dossier or a rough Treasury draft. Can you give me some tips on getting to England as I can't go by plane as my passport is out of date?
167

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 19:46:48
197. Great post, great point. The SNP are proposing an LIT, within existing budgets, and the Westminster lot are proposing taking £450 million away as a result. Love the way you spun that as the "SNP taking" - like it, like it like!!

Hey, who the 3 solid partners? I just get guff off the Labour, Lib and Tory sites - one lot say the SNP are right wing, the other say they are left wing, and then they voting with each other! We need some coherence here!
168

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 19:48:12
198. Too right! Scotland is the Beirut and Albania and possibly the Wigan Pier of the world for lay abouts and scrongers! We will never amount to anything!
169

brownlie,

On the Buckie 02/04/2008 20:03:32
197 Media

When you say solid do you mean from the neck up? I hope you're not talking Jackie Baillie here because that would be extremely sexist.
170

morris,

edinburgh 02/04/2008 20:29:19
100

236 billion was a figure which I was quoted on here I must confess (many times as it so happens) but I agree that I have never checked the figures accuracy,since the money which was given to Scotland is substantially less than she contributed, and that is the important point.If you cannot understand that what can I say?

The figure is academic and the person who looks and is foolish is the man who got nothing,and voted for it!
Worse still voted for four consecutive Tory governments including Thatcher,whilst opposed to that party .Now that is foolish!
That certainly was not me, but you lot are clearly guilty of gross stupidity of the highest order because you are going to do it again and have learned NOTHING!
171

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 02/04/2008 20:29:39
Have you noticed that the two stories featuring the PM in this 'Politics' section are both headlined 'Brown rejects...'
172

Brian M,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 20:32:06
from what I can see Scotland means nothing to the Scottish Labour MPs at Westminster, they are in it for the greater good of the Labour party and themselves, any benefits for the electorate are an accidental byproduct
173

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 20:54:21
201. Please see Media 1's racially inclusive posts on the Salmond thread! We have you racist SNP types licked!
174

morris,

edinburgh 02/04/2008 21:26:32
204

You are correct.New Labour (Scotland Branch)are loyal ONLY to the New Labour Party,not Scotland,and unconditionally so. They have suppressed the contents of the McCrone Report for Forty Years, whilst simultaneously publicising a complete misrepresentation of the facts, and to the eternal cost of Scotlands electorate ,who foolishly put their trust in them.If that is not conclusive evidence then I dont know what is.The latest episode with Michael Martin and his wife e.g travelling by taxi at our expense ,is just the tip of the iceberg ,and the entire party is corrupt and has been milking the public purse for years now. These so called "left wingers" have become millionaires at our expense,but to be fair,we were stupid enough to believe them, so we got what we deserved.TAKEN FOR A RIDE.
Some of us are quite proud of betraying our countrymen. "Sic a parcel o rogues in a nation "
Some things never change.
175

,

02/04/2008 21:31:20
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,

02/04/2008 21:37:26
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The Answer,

Glasgow 02/04/2008 22:19:24
"202 morris,edinburgh 02/04/2008 20:29:19"
100

"236 billion was a figure which I was quoted on here I must confess (many times as it so happens) but I agree that I have never checked the figures accuracy,since the money which was given to Scotland is substantially less than she contributed,"


"the money which was given to Scotland is substantially less than she contributed"

hmmmm, did you bother to check your last statement, or was it posted here many times or guess work or just wishfull thinking?

Facts and figures backed up by source please, and just because it's in your little scotlander head , it dosent mean it's a fact.

178

Calum Crubag,

02/04/2008 22:27:01
Eh, who are the ethnics? Anyway, will you join me and our English friends in hating the Euros? Mind you, their royal family is German. Is that ethnic?
179

yoric,

02/04/2008 22:45:44
Why does Scottish Nationalist policy always seem to require money from Westminster?
It might surprise the SNP to know that funding is restricted/denied in England also.
180

,

02/04/2008 22:52:42
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,

02/04/2008 23:13:17
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182

The Answer,

Glasgow 02/04/2008 23:13:34
213 Peter,Labour have really lost the plot 02/04/2008 22:34:35

Answer please answer this: What are the clearly definable benefits of a continued political Union with England where the Scots are 100% scroungers (Heffer in the Torygraph), suck back more in block grant than they put in per head in taxation and such a total drag on the SE and City of London growth rate of 2.3%?

Why does the Parliament of England and Wales want to hold on to us?"

Actually, the sooner you have the balls to leave the better!

There is no benefit for England.

I admit the SNP party is a gift from the gods for England!

Wait untill PESA2008 is realeased in a few weeks , that will make headlines and will keep the Torygraph + dailymail in bliss!

The party is just starting, slash and burn comes to mind.

183

,

02/04/2008 23:14:11
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184

Truely English,

02/04/2008 23:24:02
I must to ask your forgiveness as I meant the SNP supporters on this newspaper website and not the MPs or MSPs as this would not show up well.

It was clear a number of years ago when visiting Edinburgh in Scotland that a sizable majority of Scottish people there follow English culture in every way and detest anything to do with the Celtic Culture and language which really surprised me.
Indeed their resentment was very deep and difficult to understand as so much of what they said was at odds.
185

morris,

edinburgh 03/04/2008 07:31:35
214

SNP policy is ultiomately indepenedence where Scotland requires absolutely bog all from Westminster.We will also contribute BOG ALL.What part of independence do you not understand?WE pay taxes to London and we elect MSPS to get the best deal whilst we are in the UK.

The current arangements are being changed/threatened with change to thwart the legitimately elected devolved government in Edinburgh ,to Scotlands clear disadvantage.Do you think a Scottish government should try to achieve less for Scotland? We already tried that under Labour/Lib Dem.
Why is the mystery since clearly we gained nothing.
186

morris,

edinburgh 03/04/2008 07:34:38
219

You visted Edinburgh . You cannot equate Scotland with one city!
If you visited London would you know about Newcastle?Of course not !
Maybe if you started by realising that Scotland covers approx 30% of the UK and is not a place,Its a country with MORE coastline than England has.
187

morris,

edinburgh 03/04/2008 07:51:00
217

I admit the SNP party is a gift from the gods for England!

What do you mean by that?

The SNP has nothing to do with England and is just another political viewpoint in Scotland as is New Labour Tory and Lib Dem. One wants independence ,one wants to change devolution to avoid independence,one prefers a federal solution (so they say) and one would rather we were ruled by an English Tory government(which is arguably true of the Labour Party also)

What is inescapable is that Labour will get the biggest humping in history and Scotland has 1 million people who cannot understand that you dont need to be run over to know when the next bus arrives!
188

The Answer,

Glasgow 04/04/2008 00:01:05
220 morris,edinburgh 03/04/2008 07:31:35

"We will also contribute BOG ALL"

No change then!

 

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