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'Wind farm may release more Co2 than it saves'

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Published Date: 25 July 2009
CRITICS of one of the largest wind farms planned for Scotland warn it may never save more Co2 than it releases from fragile peat bogs.
Opposition is escalating against the 540 megawatt, 150-turbine Viking wind farm proposed for mainland Shetland.

Supporters argue it will provide about 20 per cent of Scotland's domestic energy needs and bring £37 million to the local economy.

H
owever, critics warn building the wind farm could release so much Co2 from damaged peat bogs that the scheme may never save a net amount of greenhouse gas emissions.

An objection from RSPB Scotland yesterday followed another from the John Muir Trust earlier this week.

There has also been a 3,600-name petition against the plans.

RSPB Scotland highlighted that the environmental statement submitted by developers Viking Energy calculated in the worst case scenario that the "payback period" would be 48.5 years – because so much of the gas would be unleashed from peat bogs during construction.

Lloyd Austin, RSPB Scotland's head of conservation policy, said: "The lack of certainty that there would be any significant net benefits undermines the case for development. There is no point in building renewables that potentially emit more carbon, due to peatland impacts, than they save."

He also that warned nationally important populations of whimbrel, a wading bird, plus red-throated divers, golden plover and merlin could be displaced or potentially even killed by the turbines.

However, Viking Energy, a consortium of Shetland Islands Council and Scottish & Southern Energy, said the 48.5 years calculation was an error on the application document, and actually the worst case scenario was about 14 years.

A spokesman for RSPB Scotland said: "We have to respond to what has been submitted to government under due legal process."

John Hutchison, chairman of the John Muir Trust, said even with a payback of 14 years it was "hardly worth destroying such a special, wild place for the relatively small amount of carbon that may be saved".

He warned 19 per cent of mainland Shetland would be "significantly affected" by turbines.

And he added: "The scale of this proposal is truly staggering and totally disproportionate for an island like Shetland.

"Shetland's treeless landscape will be completely dominated by the development, with the turbines visible in a 15 kilometre radius around the wind farm."

However, a spokesman for Viking Energy said it was "entirely misleading" to suggest a fifth of the mainland would be affected, and insisted it was closer to 4 per cent.

He added: "We believe that the development proposed for Shetland is well planned and will contribute significantly to the UK's legally binding targets to reduce carbon emissions."

The public consultation into the plans closes on Tuesday.





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1

sicasapig,

topofaturbine 25/07/2009 01:23:54

however, critics warn building the wind farm could release so much Co2 from damaged peat bogs that the scheme may never save a net amount of greenhouse gas emissions.


So could grasping at straws and f*rting in the wind
2

Am Fògarrach,

25/07/2009 01:36:33
1 sicasapig

But wouldn't it be better to know before going ahead and building it?

And by the way "f*rting in the wind" releases the same amount of CO2 and other gasses as f*rting out of the wind.
3

sicasapig,

25/07/2009 02:13:35
2 Am Fògarrach.But wouldn't it be better to know before going ahead and building it?

{1} only if its done by people in the know not critics

And by the way "f*rting in the wind" releases the same amount of CO2 and other gasses as f*rting out of the wind.
{2} i dont suppose the word facetious will have any meaning for you
4

Am Fògarrach,

25/07/2009 04:40:26
3 sicasapig

(1) I heartily agree.

(2) Yes it does, but you apparently don't recognise it when it is used for you.
5

Mallory,

Edinburgh 25/07/2009 06:06:50
Look for the money behind these 'farms' to 'save the planet'
.
Carbon trading worldwide reached $126 billion in 2008. Banks, which profit most, are calling for more. Experts are predicting the carbon market will reach $2 - $10 trillion in the near future.

Hot air will soon be the largest single commodity traded on global exchanges.

Guess who's leccy prices will stay high?
6

Am Fidhleir Lomartach,

25/07/2009 08:01:20
No. 1 - before you scoff, do a bit of homework on the value of peat as a carbon sink, and the effects of drying out the peat as a result of construction. Reality is a bit more complicated than you appear to believe.

Add in the carbon costs of the manufacture and construction of the turbines, the infrastructure on site, the undersea cable, the transmission losses, and the fact that unless demand is addressed there will be no longterm shift in generating mix, and you need to see some hard figures about the lifetime carbon benefit.

Of course Viking is going to claim a payback of 14y, but they use the figures in the model that will suit their case. Even that estimate means that there will be no benefit until 2023. By addressing demand (it is 'demand' and not 'need') we could have a benefit tomorrow.
7

Am Fidhleir Lomartach,

25/07/2009 08:04:45
Jenny, dear. If you are going to write on science matters, rootle out your S1 chemistry notes first.

Carbon dioxide is CO [subscript] 2. Co is Cobalt. Co2 means nothing in chemistry.
8

calum,

25/07/2009 08:33:43
Windfarms are the biggest myth in the solution to demand for power supplies. Few, if any, jobs for locals and a poor overall return because it is dependent on a variable wind supply.
In connection with, I travel the A1 most days and can see the windfarm that has been constructed south of Spott. For the last 2 months I doubt if the turbines have been turning on 40% of the days. What's going to be the future in Scotland when you click the lightswitch and nothing happens?
9

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 25/07/2009 08:56:48
#6 and others.

Sounds very good and proper to take such things into account, however disingenuous the reason for doing so.

At no stage whatsoever is the "Carbon Cost" of construction considered in the planning and building and costing of nuclear power plants. Yet we are told they are "Green".

At no stage has the "Carbon Cost" of the construction of the single tram line in Edinburgh been calculated in their wild estimates that "Trams are Green" and they are essential for the City of Edinburgh.

Critics will tear down the Wind Farms and build nuclear power stations in their stead and protest they are being "Green". Well, it that means being gullible and swallowing everything that the pro-Nuclear Lobby says - then they are certainly green.

I would have thought that the whole of the Shetlands would be affected - by a clean, renewable, local source of electricity.
10

Am Fidhleir Lomartach,

25/07/2009 09:00:47
No.9 - We are not discussing a nuclear plant, or the Edinburgh trams. If we were, I would make the same point.

The issue is simple - if you are claiming that your project will save CO2, you should justify it in CO2 terms. This is not about CO2 or green or anything other than making lots of money for folk whose carbon footprint is very substantially greater than mine (and probably yours too).
11

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/07/2009 09:21:37
8. Calum:

'Few, if any, jobs for locals'

So wind farms should be job-creation schemes.

Are coalfired power stations built to create jobs for miners?
12

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/07/2009 09:25:43
The peat only releases CO2 when it has been disturbed. Only small areas are disturbed in building a wind farm. And the disturbed peat does not go on releasing CO2 for evermore.

Since in the absence of a peat problem a wind turbine pays for itself in a few months I believe the peat problem is overblown (pun intended).
13

calum,

25/07/2009 09:33:56
#11 - No, but one of the justifications or support put forward by both politicians and windfarm lobbyists is the creation of jobs for locals - and its a lie.
14

Unimpressed one,

25/07/2009 09:36:47
The RSPB have been calling for an increase in the number of windmills, except when they happen to object to them. This is typical of all greenie groups - their agendas are full of contradictions because none of them is based on reason and common sense.
15

Unimpressed one,

25/07/2009 09:37:39
Since when did cobalt have anything to do with 'emissions'?
16

Am Fidhleir Lomartach,

25/07/2009 09:39:17
No. 12 - The peat releases carbon when it dries. It is not just the local effect of digging a hole for a concrete base that does the damage, but the effects on the entire hydrology of the bog caused by that and the road building and the drainage. These can potentially have effects well beyond the turbine site itself.

However, as you are a well-known apologist for the wind-farm scammers, your comments come as no surprise and will be read in that context.

And you have almost hit it on the head at No. 11 - windfarms *are* largely job creation schemes, but the claims for employment opportunities are almost as inflated as the claims about energy output.
17

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/07/2009 09:59:42
12. Correction:

- for CO2 read methane.
18

Goat Boy,

25/07/2009 10:02:48
I have to agree with Fred (12). Scotland's emissions of greenhouse gases are so small; they are insignificant when you compare them against the global inventory.

The CO2 released during the construction of a wind farm on Shetland will be less than insignificant, so do we really need to debate the issue?
19

Robbierunciman,

Romney Marsh 25/07/2009 10:06:10
'CRITICS of one of the largest wind farms planned for Scotland warn it may never save more Co2 than it releases from fragile peat bogs'

this is a straws indeed, climate change will dry out peat bogs on an extremely large scale across the northern hemisphere and could release billions of tonnes of carbon into the atmosphere.

On Romney marsh, they said that a windfarm would increase the flood risk and damage the water table.

Question - do CC sceptics live in a world where the cup is always half empty and should they be one of the few sections of the population who need to increase their carbon footprint and get out more?

20

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/07/2009 10:07:07
A report from the Macaulay Institute shows that, located on the right sites and if they follow best practice, wind farms can save as much carbon as they release within the first three years of operation.

21

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/07/2009 10:14:50
'Calculating carbon savings from wind farms on Scottish peat lands - A New Approach'


http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2008/06/25114657/0
22

luckyman,

Glasgow 25/07/2009 10:46:43
I used to be a supporter of the RSPB, but for the last couple of years I've been getting sicker and sicker of the double standards they apply in everything they do. I sent a polite query about an objection to a wind farm asking what happens if - as they say - global warming is an immediate threat. I got a reply back asking me why wind farms should be built 500 miles away from London when that's where the power was needed. And here was I thinking the RSPB was a scientific organisation
23

Am Fidhleir Lomartach,

25/07/2009 11:34:32
Fred at Nos 20 and 21 is at it again. That report is not talking about the Shetland wind farm. It is the result of one possible scenario, the other scenarios being significantly less attractive. And peat bogs would not qualify as one of 'the right sites' in this connection.
24

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/07/2009 11:41:22
23. AFL

You have obviously not read the report. It addresses scenarios in general and ways in which carbon emissions can be minimised.
25

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/07/2009 11:54:39
A report by scientists from the Macaulay Institute and Aberdeen University shows that if wind farms choose the right sites and follow best practice they can save as much carbon as they release within the first three years of operation. This assumes that the existing peat is in a stable condition and that damage to peat is minimised, and also that the site is fully restored after 25 years. If the wind farm is badly designed and built, however, the ‘payback' period can be much longer. While there are some healthy areas, the peat across the proposed Viking Energy site is not in a stable condition and has severe ongoing erosion in many of the places targeted for development. Several peatland specialists have been employed on this project to provide the foremost advice to help protect the hills in the areas of development. The Viking project is also committing millions of pounds to peatland restoration as part of a habitat management plan that seeks to improve the currently deteriorating condition of the peatlands. Not building the wind farm could result in greater peat related carbon emissions than building the wind farm.

Viking Energy
26

Am Fidhleir Lomartach,

25/07/2009 11:56:32
No 24. I have. As I said, the result you quote in no. 20 is a scenario. It is not in any way relevant to the payback time of the Shetland proposal.
27

,

25/07/2009 13:04:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
28

mr broon,

Edinburgh 25/07/2009 13:38:42
In 1975, Ian Clarke, the shrewd CEO of Shetland Islands Council, negotiated an agreement with the oil exploration companies which, ever since, has resulted in an average of £116 million per year being injected into the local economy through large numbers of jobs in the local council, and investment in the unique Shetland Islands Council Oil Reserve Fund.

Since the 1970s, Shetland has had one of the lowest unemployment rates in the UK with a high standard of living.

Could it be that some Shetlanders feel they don't need SSE's investment because they are doing very nicely, economically?

I wonder what the pragmatic former CEO (and chartered accountant) of Shetland Islands Council, who was renowned for beating the big bucks oilmen at their own game, would have thought about this lucrative proposal?
29

nabodican,

Newton Stewart 25/07/2009 14:22:33
It is good to see that turbine Fred Bloggs still loves his turbines no matter what.
The fact of the matter is that this windfarm proposal will save no emissions and is guaranteed to put out more!
Why ? you may ask - the answer is simple - there is not a grid connection to take the intermittent electricity to the mainland and as Shetland does not have a coal fired power station it will not save emissions.
Even if there was a suitable link, no emissions will be saved until Longannet and Cockenzie reduce their coal burn.
Give me some amusement Fred and tell me how much emissions Longannet and Cockenzie put out and how much emissions have really been saved as a result of the 1500 turbines littering the Scottish hills.
It should also be noted that it is not just peat that is an issue, there is the small matter of up to 2000 tonnes of reinforced concrete in every turbine base and the hundreds of miles of roads to consider.
Off course Shetland is not the only gigantic proposal, Whitelee has already been built and extension applied for. Arecleoch and the neighbouring Mark hill with a total of 88 turbines are being built and the Arecleoch extension for another 120 turbines is in planning. Proposals like this make Shetland look like small fry.
Then we have the anti nuke brigade who foolishly think that wind turbines are an alternative to nukes - idiots!
The bottom line is that windfarms are simply about easy money for the developers at our expense.
30

Geomac 1,

Kinross 25/07/2009 14:58:14
#5 - quite correct -look for the money behind these wind sites.
I have calculated that the ANNUAL subsidy paid for by leccy consumers via the ROC system will be around $60 million!! Then there is the wholesale price they obtain for the leccy itself - around £40 million per year. £100 million payback per year is a nice little earner.
31

Geomac 1,

Scotland 25/07/2009 14:59:05
oops - that should have read £60 million subsidy - not $60 million
32

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/07/2009 15:00:48
The wind farm could offset over 1 million tonnes of CO2 per year.
It could produce 2 billion units of clean, safe, renewable power every year.
The Shetland wind farm could supply 20% of Scotland's domestic electricity needs.
The wind farm could generate between £25 and £30 million for the Shetland economy every year.
Around 50 new skilled jobs could be created to look after the wind farm.
The construction phase could create an average of 230 new jobs for its 5 year duration.
33

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/07/2009 15:03:05
Shetland's peak winter electricity demand is just over 50 MegaWatts. A 550 MegaWatt wind farm would clearly produce more electricity than Shetland could use locally. The Viking Energy project has been developed on the principle that Shetland can benefit from exporting electricity and the project is dependent upon the introduction of an economic electrical sub-sea interconnector cable to the Scottish mainland. The connection is being designed so that the wind farm would be able to feed the local grid and then export the surplus. Scotland is currently a net exporter of power but several major power stations are due to close in the next few years. By the time this project is commissioned Scotland is likely to be a net importer of power.
34

Geomac 1,

Scotland 25/07/2009 15:03:35
#45 Fred
You claim "A report by scientists from the Macaulay Institute and Aberdeen University shows that if wind farms choose the right sites and follow best practice they can save as much carbon as they release within the first three years of operation." The key phrase in this sentence is "IF WIND FARMS CHOSE THE RIGHT SITES" - in this they simply have not - it's a well known fact that buidling on peat bogs release vast quantities of CO2!
But as nabodican says these windmills only "save CO2" if coal/oil/gas power stations are closed as a consequence of the windmills - and since none has closed, where do the savings come from??????
35

livilion,

livingston 25/07/2009 15:09:17

#7 Am Fidhleir Lomartach(Notso Smartass?)

Cobalt 2 (Co2)- Ethylhexanoate is a Cobalt source that is soluble in organic solvents as an organometallic compound (also known as metalorganic, organo-inorganic and metallo-organic compounds). Ethylhexanoates are carboxylates with many commercial applications They are commonly used in various catalysts for oxidation, hydrogenation and polymerization and as an adhesion promoter...

Before you shoot your mouth off, it is a good idea to check your facts first, particularly if you are such a pedant as to pick up on a simple typo.
36

Geomac 1,

Scotland 25/07/2009 15:09:25
#33 Fred
Will this interconnector enable electricity to flow INTO the Shetlands? If not, many hours of darkness and cold will follow!!
#32 - this claim of benefitting the economy of the Shetlands is all very well but the money will be paid for by electricity consumers UK wide - so you're OK with the rest of us contributing to the Shetland economy? See my post above (#30), we will be making an annual contribution of £60 million to Shetlanders!!!
37

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 25/07/2009 15:14:00
Really, it is down to who do you believe, the applicants or the objectors? In my case the Noes have it! Applicants don't make stupid mistakes when it comes to figures! Though from experience they do make self supporting 'miscalculations' about the harmful effects of these 'farms'! Occasionally, you can drag the truth out of their mouths, but is very difficult to get them to write it on paper!
38

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/07/2009 15:17:53
Shetland is one of the best locations in the world for wind power - for example, the existing small windfarm (Burradale) near Lerwick on the islands has an average capacity of 53% - a world record for wind generators. Last year this windfarm had an average capacity of 57.9% - well over double the UK average.

The proposed scheme is very popular with locals with 76% saying they are supportive, and just 6% found to be opposed in a recent MORI telephone poll.

Currently Shetland is not connected to the UK national grid. Its electricity needs are met by a 67MW diesel power station in Lerwick and the 5-turbine Burradale wind farm.
39

livilion,

livingston 25/07/2009 15:23:13
#34 Geomac 1
Building on peat bogs need not be so damaging as you suggest, if access roads etc are run over floating mats which minimise damage to the underlying soil.

And as you well know, most of Scotland's baseload generators are due to come off-line in the next decade or two.
Having renewables delivering clean energy in the meantime seems sensible to me, or do we wait until these power stations are decommissioned before we count the benefit against non-renewable energy sources?

Personally I regret HM Govt's failure to give a green light to the Peterhead hydrogen CCT powerstation project, similar to that proposed for the coal fired stations on the Forth, which could've been reducing greenhouse gas emmissions to the extent of 400,000 cars' output a year by the time of the next Holyrood elections. To my mind that puts this debate into some perspective.
40

Geomac 1,

Scotland 25/07/2009 15:25:14
If the avaregae capacity will be 50% as you claim Fred (#38), then the subsidy I calculated (#30 above based on a capacity factor of 30%) paid by leccy consumers (ROCs) will rise to £100 million ANNUALLY.
41

livilion,

livingston 25/07/2009 15:31:05
36 Geomac 1
How many hours of darkness would you invisage on Shetland where there'll be no wind to turn these generators?
IMHO gey few during the winter months when energy demand is at its peak.

Given your distaste for energy production systems which you suggest cannot be relied upon, I take it you have similar concerns about nuclear generation which in Scotland eg much of last year was either off line completely or running at uneconomic power levels?
42

livilion,

livingston 25/07/2009 15:35:23
A serious question, which got a deaf ear yesterday: Why do windturbines/mills HAVE to be painted WHITE?

IMHO In white they are at odds with their environment, is there any good reason why the are not painted the same colour as farm buildings, electricity pylons or cellphone masts?
Would this not help to resolve/minimise many of the visual polution issues associated with windfarm sites?

Any takers this time?
43

Geomac 1,

Scotland 25/07/2009 15:35:31
Yes livilion (#39) a small portion of the CO2 release can be mitigated against BUT it's very expensive and it has not been used in Scotland to date!
I am well aware of the planned removal of coal fired (and nuclear) power stations in the future but surely you are not suggesting that these can wholly be replaced by windmills??? I had credited you with more intelligence than that.
I assume that you are aware that for continuity/security of leccy supply all the large electricity suppliers say that we need some 80-90% conventional or nuclear (or other reliable) backup for wind?
Because of the failure to accept this by politicians the world over, I've got my personal generator ready!!
I just wish the debate would be more attentive to security of supply and more realistic about the availability of alternative renewables - otherwise we're all doomed!!
Some wind it appropriate locations is fine but not to the exclusion of other means of power generation - surely we have learned from the German, Danish and Spanish experiences (grid instability, distress selling of wind leccy etc)
44

Geomac 1,

Scotland 25/07/2009 15:42:02
#41 livilion
The hours of darkness and cold would arise when there was no wind (high pressure - when it's usually very cold in the winter) or when the isobars are so close as to cause high wind speeds (quite a bit on Shetlands I would imagine)
I cannot be alone having a distaste for electricity generation systems which cannot be relied upon - what's the point. The economy of our country depends on having a reliable electricity supply -QED
45

Geomac 1,

Scotland 25/07/2009 15:44:34
#42
No matter what colour they're painted they're still unreliable.
Seriously, if I was convinced that windmills would do what the BWEA and others claim, I would be full sqaure behind them - we need new sources of electricity - but they simply are NOT! Then I'd be happy to discuss colours. design shapes etc
46

nabodican,

Newton Stewart 25/07/2009 15:45:41
#32 Fred say's "The wind farm could offset over 1 million tonnes of CO2 per year." What a ridiculous statement Fred - Prove it!
Fred also say's "Around 50 new skilled jobs could be created to look after the wind farm." I suggest you take a look at Whitelee or any other operational windfarm Fred and try and spot the worker! failing that, get your eyes tested.
Just in case you don't know where Whitelee is - head along the M8 and turb down the M77 - it is on your left.
I take it from your comments about Shetland that you know the place well! you have been there Fred ?? or have you ?
47

nabodican,

Newton Stewart 25/07/2009 15:48:30
42 - White paint is usually cheaper!!
48

livilion,

livingston 25/07/2009 15:49:25
#43 Geomac 1
I have already stated my support for hyrdogen fueled electricity generation, either using the centuries of fossil fuel reserves under our feet for secure baseload generation, or from microgeneration energy& storage systems using renewables such as the PURE project on Shetland.

I regularly visit the New Lanark Mill site where water turbines are used to great effect. I also visit Hunterston B and Torness and am struck by how often they are shut down for emergency repairs or regular maintenance. I might suggest these powerstations could be regarded as less reliable than those much derided 'renewables' for keeping the lights burning.
49

livilion,

livingston 25/07/2009 15:52:10
hyrdogen fueled? dyslexia rules ko!
50

nabodican,

Newton Stewart 25/07/2009 15:53:29
Another thing Fred - you statement "Are coalfired power stations built to create jobs for miners?"
Actually they were, Particularly at longanmnet across the water from you, unfortunately the mine flooded a few years ago which resulted in coal being shipped in.
51

Geomac 1,

Scotland 25/07/2009 15:58:58
One final post before G&T time!
#48 livilion - of course, all power stations require maintenance and can suffer a failure - that's why we have a range or electricity generating systems in the UK. If there is a gas availability prblem we have the other systems, if a nuclear reactor requires maintenance, we have coal and gas etc etc. What distinguishes these from wind is that windmills are TOTALLY weather related and hence unpredictable - despite the rubbish spouted by IPCC that they can predict the cliamte some 80-90 years hence!! Please don't respond with the oft spouted claim that there will always be some wind somewhere in the UK - that's a totally fatuous argument.
I have no problem with hydro although during the IPCC predicted droughts, these too will not work!!
Enjoy the remainder of your day
G
52

livilion,

livingston 25/07/2009 16:02:52
50 nabodican
Are you familiar with underground coal gasification, which was trialed at Longannet a few years ago?
This technology does away with the need to put miners in harms way underground. The Forth Basin was found to be too wet for the current state of this technology, but below the North Sea oil fields the Norwegians have discovered coal reserves comparable to Arab oil reserves, winnable using oil drilling technology.

http://www.ucgp.com/key-facts/basic-description
53

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/07/2009 16:08:58
The subsea interconnector proposed for Shetland to the Scottish mainland would be HVDC and able to carry power in either direction like the English Channel connector to France.
54

livilion,

livingston 25/07/2009 16:09:22
#51 Geomac 1
Are you suggesting that you expect every windmill in Scotland will stop at the same time?

Or have you noticed that weather in this country varies not only from one end of the country to the other, but usually from one glen to the next. On visits to Skye for example I am impressed when they say that if you don't like the weather then take a run a few miles up the road to find what you're looking for.
55

Geomac 1,

Scotland 25/07/2009 16:10:55
Dang - I thought that it was 5 o'clock - it was only 4! Another 45 mins before G&T!!!
56

livilion,

livingston 25/07/2009 16:13:30
47 nabodican
I suppose we should thank our stars that flourescent dayglo pink is more expensive than white if that's the criteria.
57

Geomac 1,

Scotland 25/07/2009 16:19:40
#54 - I thought that I'd pre-empted that response! Just think about what you're saying - suppose we had 1000 windmills in Scotland. With an average 30 capacity factor of around 30%, we really only have the equivalent of 300 - then there is the failure/maintenance factor - yes, windmills have similar needs/problems as other means of generation (if as you say you've passed wind sites, you will have noticed that there's always a percentage not working when the wind is fine). But if there is a high pressure isobar above Scotland (yes, it does happen) we have zero power from windmills - there are recorded days when there has been no input from wind (Ofgem and REF data). I'm afraid livilion, that I just don't like the odds.
58

Am Fidhleir Lomartach,

25/07/2009 16:28:01
No. 35 - You write from a position of total chemical ignorance, apparently. Take your own advice. And it is not just a typo.
59

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/07/2009 16:29:55
geomac claims:

'windmills are TOTALLY weather related and hence unpredictable'

You should look at the NETA website which shows predicted and actual wind power output.

e.g. peak wind power forecast for noon tomorrow: 902MW
60

livilion,

livingston 25/07/2009 16:59:50
#58 Am Fidhleir Lomartach

I confess, Applied Physics at Bell College Hamilton, Electrical& Electronic Engineering at Dundee Uni(pioneers of wind technology) during the 80s never equipped me for the issues you identified with peat bogs releasing gaseous cobalt into our atmosphere.

The advice is: when you find yourself stuck in a hole, most people will stop digging...
61

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/07/2009 17:02:46
46. nabodican is concerned at never seeing a worker on a wind farm.

I passed Longannet the other day and didn't see a single worker...

A wind farm maintenance worker is likely to spend much of his time inside the generator nacelle which houses the gear box, generator and electronics....out of sight!
62

Geomac 1,

Scotland 25/07/2009 17:10:22
#61 fred
You should surely see the ladders then - but no!!
At Logannet - they've stopped shovelling the coal by hand now - and all the workers are in the compressor and boiler sheds!!
63

Am Fidhleir Lomartach,

25/07/2009 17:16:53
No 60. Gaseous cobalt is your invention, and obviously you were asleep when your lecturer was teaching you how to interpret chemical names. Time for your pills, I think. The last lot seem to have worn off.
64

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/07/2009 17:40:16
62. geomac: the ladders are inside the towers.
65

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/07/2009 17:42:24
64. looking upwards inside a tower:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bluemarla/3734379804/
66

nabodican,

Newton Stewart 25/07/2009 19:51:46
Oh dear Fred, with a couple of hundred people at the Longannet site, you could not see any ! Add to this all the wind farm employees were up the towers fixing broken gearboxes(a common occurrence I'll grant you) and no sign of their vans ! - You really do need your eyes tested.
Here are some numbers for you to digest : The Viking Energy proposal for 150 turbines claims to save 1,000,000 tonnes of CO2/annum. Longannet only emits 6,000,000 tonnes /annum. Scotland has 1500 turbines and hundreds more in planning.
A simple count up shows that the wind industry are claiming more CO2 savings than are emitted from Longannet and Cockenzie put together. Bearing in mind that the ASA already hauled the wind industry over the coals for claiming 100% displacement - even 20% is stretching it. Even someone as simple as you should see that wind turbines will not reduce CO2 from power generation one ounce.
67

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 26/07/2009 08:05:43
• The generation costs of onshore wind power are around 3.2p/kWh, with offshore at around 5.5p/kWh – this compares to a wholesale price for electricity of around 3.0p/kWh
• The estimated net additional cost (the ‘system cost’) of providing 20% of total output from
wind energy in 2020 is 0.17p/kWh based on current gas prices
• If the social cost of carbon is included, the net additional cost of wind power is reduced, and could be zero.

- Sustainable Development Commission.
68

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 26/07/2009 10:30:35
nabodican:

Taking a capacity factor of 50% for the Viking wind farm (already achieved for the existing wind farm); a capacity factor for Longannet of 70% and your figure of 6Mt/year CO2 emitted by Longannet gives a figure of 964,000t/year equivalent saved by the Viking wind farm.

QED
69

Colin, Glasgow,

26/07/2009 22:02:17
If the damage to the peat is properly remediated then the CO2 emissions from the windfarm are barely doubled. As long as it replaces coal or gas there is no doubt that it will save carbon emissions.

The problem is the Scottish Government policy is to keep the coal and gas powerstations and shut down the nuclear plant. If wind power is replacing nuclear power it cannot and will not reduce emissions.
70

livilion,

livingston 27/07/2009 10:08:23
#69 Colin, Glasgow

The policy of the Scottish government as I understand it is to continue to utilise our hydrocarbon fuel resources, of which we have several centuries of reserves under our feet, but phasing in Carbon Capture Technology as the opportunities present.

Virtually the first thing the incoming First Minister did on assuming office was to visit the two coal fired powerstations on the Forth to make clear his vision of converting these sites to use clean burning hydrogen systems utilising CCT and deep underground storage of CO2 as was proposed by Hydrogenenergy for Peterhead

http://www.hydrogenenergy.com/41.html

71

livilion,

livingston 27/07/2009 10:08:58
63 Am Fidhleir Lomartach
still digging?
72

livilion,

livingston 27/07/2009 10:25:11
66 nabodican
You make the mistake of many of your ilk, you assume that the current technology will remain as is.

IBM could not see the future for personal computers, the Wright brothers would've been astonished that men born within their lifetime were walking on the moon. I remember the first mobile phones, the size and weight of a house brick, no networks, and battery life measured in minutes.

As this industry grows and more is invested in its development, I expect to see the same quantum advances in its practicality and rewards.
73

El Franko,

07/08/2009 15:30:10
Sorry to have missed this stushie back in July. I'm one of those people who are untroubled by increasing CO2 in the atmosphere, indeed I would expect to benefit from increased agricultural productivity. The gentle warming we have enjoyed since the end of the little ice age has been a blessing, and I hope it will continue. The recent cooling, and our 'overdue' glaciation, give me more cause for concern. Just a tiny bit, no need to create a piece of corruption like the IPCC, to get carried away with it.

Anyway, these bird-blenders proposed for Shetland are neither necessary, nor really affordable for this wee country, one which should be conserving resources not throwing them away on totems to the irrational.

 

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