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Labour 'in danger of losing' votes of Catholics



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JAMES MacMillan, one of Scotland's top composers, has launched an extraordinary attack on the Labour Party, warning its leaders that they are in danger of losing the Catholic vote.
Mr MacMillan, who has been vocal in his condemnation of sectarianism in the past, has written an open letter to Wendy Alexander, the leader of the Labour group in the Scottish Parliament, which has been published in the Catholic Observer.

He warned Ms Alexander that the way Labour MPs voted in recent Commons debates on abortion and human-animal embryos might lose the party thousands of votes in Scotland.

Mr Macmillan is hugely critical of the recent votes on human-animal embryos and on reducing abortion time limits, saying they showed an "immoral" use of power by the House of Commons.



The full article contains 138 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

CRAGman,

12/06/2008 00:16:52
If only the aborted unborn could vote.
2

Good Answer,

Glasgow 12/06/2008 00:20:25
Great news for the rest of Scotland, Labour is losing its core vote at last. lets move on.
3

Steve,

Bo'ness 12/06/2008 00:22:21
And protestants. And muslims. And Sikhs. And Hindus. And Jews. And Jedi
Who does that leave?

Satanists!
4

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 12/06/2008 00:34:32
Labour have LOST the arguement and the people they were supposed to represent. See what happens when a SCOT goes south of the border, they lose their brain and IDENTITY.
5

Stefan Mack,

Elgin 12/06/2008 00:34:55
the more this man opens his mouth the more idiotic he renders himself. why the scotsman continues to give his vitriolic outbursts any coverage beggars belief. even as an snp supported i find his remarks insulting to the basic intelligence of scots.

keep religion out of politics please. i honestly though this bigoted south-west scotland mindset was vanishing but alas even this self proclaimed "man of culture" has his mind in the gutter of the past.
6

Col. Blimp­IV*,

12/06/2008 00:56:14
Dr John Reid will attempt to staunch the flow with his bear hands...Why do you think he got the Job.
7

Willie Macleod,

Wick 12/06/2008 02:21:26
#3 Steve

Satanists They will allways vote for the Devil they know.
8

Guga II,

Rockall 12/06/2008 06:43:39
#3 Steve. How true.
9

,

12/06/2008 08:12:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

,

12/06/2008 08:13:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
11

Jock 1O7,

12/06/2008 08:37:35
9 Derek

Jedi, which has loads of followers, based on the last census.

. A long time ago,
. in a parliament
. far far away,
. the forces of evil
.gathered to suppress
. the liberties of
. the people...
. *****
12

Caratacus,

West Britain 12/06/2008 09:41:20
Jim believes
In Adam & Eve!
13

aljok.23,

The World 12/06/2008 09:44:39
The Scotsman encouraging sectarianism. Mr McMillan doesn't speak for anyone other than himself.Maybe he was taking the proverbial...
14

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/06/2008 09:47:24
How dare MacMillan suggest that Catholics automatically voted for Labour in the first place, or that Catholics all agree with their politicised leadership on moral issues?

Most Catholics I know do not agree with the church's teachings on contraception, abortion or sexuality.

Bully boys like MacMillan should sod off.
15

Alan B,

12/06/2008 10:12:11
MacMillan just seems an unpleasant character. He claim sectarianism but then want the labour party to run a catholic sectarian policy.

Anti sectarianism is libertarian. Allowing all people of different religions to choose their path not imposing catholic belief on the whole country through legislation. It is not even like the majority of catholics will necessarily agree with the orthodox line he takes.
16

Alan B,

12/06/2008 10:15:14
#Duncan in Edinburgh

While i agree with u. "their politicised leadership on moral issues".

However people with any sense of moral depth will find it difficult to vote for the labour party due to the depth of the corruption within that party.
17

Boy Wonder,

12/06/2008 10:17:36
#3 & #7 ... We Satanists take exception to your saying we would vote for the present incumbent in No 10. We are having a Black Mass on Sunday to get the boss to send him a few boils on the bum. If anyone wants to take part ... meet us on the blasted heath by the gnarled old stump, where our cauldron and altar are set up, a few feet away from the North end of Dunsappie Loch! :D
18

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 12/06/2008 10:40:53
I can't see what religion has got to do with it. You'd literally have to be stark staring mad to vote labour---at any time, let alone now.
19

Miss H,

12/06/2008 10:58:22
James Macmillan makes the mistake of assuming that Catholics vote in a block. As a political activist of many years standing I am quite certain that they don't.

There is such a thing as a 'religious' vote which identifies with issues like abortion and embryology but it is far from being exclusively Catholic.

He is right in identifying that thousands of votes are influenced by these matters - not tens of thousands. In some cases those votes might make a difference in individual constituencies but not enough to wield as much influence as people may think.
20

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 12/06/2008 11:05:08
#17 Bob - doesn't James McMillan qualify as a bigot according to your standards?
21

Melly,

Sussex 12/06/2008 11:44:25
Do all Catholics vote for the Liebour party? that`s astonishing. What do all Protestants, Hindus, Muslims, and Agnostics vote or do they just think for themselves
22

Geoff,

sa 12/06/2008 11:57:52
The Catholic vote? What is that-do all Catholics hold identical views and vote always for Labour? Also if your man opposes 'sectarianism' is it not a little contradictary to single out Catholics as having an opinion "en masse". Does McMillan not see some irony here?
23

Davie08,

Edinburgh 12/06/2008 12:15:28
Jimmy MacMillan lives in an alternative political reality where it is always Glasgow in the thirties and the goons of Protestant Action are always on the street and Labour could always rely on a block Catholic vote. Living in your own imagined reality may well be an asset to a composer but not to a political commentator.
24

Alan B,

12/06/2008 12:22:13
#Geoff

I think the point is there is a strong association between the labour party in the west of scotland and catholism.

I remember back in the late 80s it was said there had not been a non catholic leader of the labour council in glasgow for decades. I just googled the current leader and he too look like he is catholic. So it is possible that this catholic only as a leader of glasgow council is continuing. Someone more into the political arrangement of parties could probably shed some light. Strathclyde region was similar.

It was one of the reasons that glasgow had a much less liberal attitude that edin council to certain social issues.

U may also look back at the coatbridge/airdrie issue. This was were the catholic labour council was spending money in catholic areas and not protestant ones.

U are correct catholics do not vote necessarily labour but it should be remembered there is a tie up in the around glasgow.
25

Geoff,

sa 12/06/2008 12:29:11
25 Alan b-thanks for the info-not having been on the ground in the UK for many years I am not current with this kind of information. Rgrds
26

LEAL,

12/06/2008 12:41:19
Pathetic.I'm not that interested in McMillans politics.I think that protestants and catholics alike in West Scotland will be voting for who they think will serve them and their country best.And most of them think their country is Scotland.Agreed their are some in the West who would rather be English or Irish,but they are the very few.Everyone in the West has been abused by Labour,Catholic and protestant.
27

Geoff,

sa 12/06/2008 12:56:15
27 Leal-the people who you allege want to be "English or Irish"-not true-75% of Scots to some degree want to Be British but I doubt if there is a one who want to be "english or Irish"
28

,

12/06/2008 15:16:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

,

12/06/2008 15:21:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
30

John PM,

Edinburgh 12/06/2008 15:48:55
Haven't they lost them already? The human-animal embryo fiasco has annoyed people of every religion and none. Since Mr MacMillan was once a prominent unionist no doubt Labour should worry about his comments which probably represent some people.

The only time I was impressed by the Cardinal was with his comments on independence and sadly he backtracked pretty quickly after Gordon Brown popped round and told him some lies.

Still on the embryo thing he was dead right and he is as entitled to express his view as anyone else (as is Mr MacMillan) but I don't believe people allow their religion to define their politics, probably because most Scots have no religion at all.

Let's face it the whole thing is fantasy for idiots which went out of style hundreds of years ago. If anyone outside of early childhood believes they are likely to be sitting on a cloud playing a harp after death then they really need a psychiatrist!
31

Col. Blimp­IV*,

12/06/2008 19:43:26
#31 Scottish and proud

You may be alarmed to learn that there is a new Religion currently active in Scotland, it's missionaries particularly anxious to convert Labour Party sympathisers who have begun to question their faith.

It is known as "The Church of the Reformed Unionist", you may have come across some Evangelists and Acolytes of this Neo-Con cult practising their catechism on this forum.

Cantor : England Defend us!

Drones : England Valiantly Defend us!

Cantor : England Feed us!

Drones : England Generously Feed us!

Cantor : England Think for us!

Drones : England Wisely think for us!

It is a unique religion, in that it offers no hope that its adherents may enter into a Paradise, Nirvana or Heaven; they contend that the United Kingdom of God is here on earth, -right now!- and it's Capital is at Westminster.

Their pivotal doctrine is the ; "Declaration of Doom", which prophesies that [he who partakes of "the forbidden fruit of freedom"], shall be visited by the ten plagues of Egypt and shall surely suffer pain and anguish for eternity, vainly awaiting the arrival of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse to put him out of his misery.

It'll never catch on!
32

Col. Blimp­IV*,

12/06/2008 19:52:47
#28 Geoff,sa

Far be it from me to advise anyone to mix with OF fans, but travelling among them incognito, one may learn things that would shock and amaze.
33

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/06/2008 21:22:33
MacMillan is an idiot.

I can understand why some Catholics may vote on a religious basis but the issues he highlights cut across the politcial divide. Most parties treat the issues as issues of conscience and leave it up to individual MPs to decide how to vote. The recent votes on human-animal embryos and on reducing abortion time limits did not go down party lines with MPs voting not according to party lines but their own personal conscience.

I hasten to add that I do have problems with some aspects of the legislation but MacMillan's reaction is like that of a spoilt brat not getting his own way and spitting the dummy out.
34

Con_B,

12/06/2008 23:17:39
I'm afraid mr McMillan is a parody in the real world. I think if you look at the votes cast in Scotland right up to about 5 years ago, nearly ALL religions voted for Labour in Scotland...and it wasnt to do with religious reasons! My being a Catholic has nothing to do with agreeing with what he says to an extent. There is an element of the flock who are more easily manipulated by soundbite utterances from the church. Personally as a fairly free thinking adult, I'm actually pretty anti abortion and human embryo (a little) but it is based purely on my own concience and with the facts I have.Patronsing out of touch composers dont really register on my scale.
35

monkey man,

13/06/2008 01:58:59
Devolution was the catalyst for the nationalist / religious fundamentalist loonys to come spewing out of the closet to attempt to grab control of Holyrood, from the crackpot SNP's wee Brigadoon Bravehearts ( circa 1314 branch) to the RC Church's extreme right-wing Cardinal Losing and his grand plan of demanding 12 year old girls who were pregnant carry the foetus to birth.

That these two sets of weirdos are now in "close partnership" shows how progressive and modern Scotland has came in such short a time.

It has been said that England only devised the Act Of Union to save Scotland from ourselves and our barbarity.....and they were right.
36

donald,

glasgow 13/06/2008 06:32:09
Labour Onionists still rule the Board at Parkheid. Did the fans even notice, whilst singing aboot the "Forces of the Crown"?
37

Preacher man,

History 13/06/2008 11:45:41
Why does the Scotsman feel the need to ask this rampant bigots views on anything? This was the man who claimed Scotland treated RC's in the same fashion as the Nazi's did the Hungarian Jews. Let me remind you the Hungarians Jews had 400,000 people murdered during this horrible period in their history.

Yet this newspaper allows this bufoon to spread his poison unanswered?

As for RC's not voting Labour! May I suggest a novel idea for all, regardless of religion or race?

Why not think for one's self, vote for who you believe will rule this country to the best of its ability and who will ensure stability.

Don't vote for bigots dressed up in preachers clothing, it only leads to trouble, particularly when it's the meddling RC bishops of Scotland.

38

Preacher man,

13/06/2008 11:51:45
I would suggest the people who are easily offended by the act of settlement, stop the scaremongering and get back to reality.

Anyone not Church of England is barred from becoming head of state. That means Church of Scotland, Jews, Muslims etc etc. The head of state is also the head of the C.O.E too, so how on earth can a RC obtain this position?

Whatever next? A jewish Pope, Catholic leader of the Muslim faith, Mormon - dai lai lama?

How easily offened has this country's population now become?
39

Jo Jo,

13/06/2008 11:52:38
Well done Mr McMillan.

By your words and actions you prove to the outside world that nepotism and sectarianism are your true values.

"The Catholic Vote" is nothing more than code words for Intimidation.

The tactic employed by the Church to get their way in Scotland these last few years.

I sincerely hope Wendy Alexander has the courage to tell this dangerous bigot and his ilk that the Labour Party will not be DICTATED to by any church or religion especially one as power hungry as the Catholic Church.
40

Figgy,

Glasgow vanguardbears.com 13/06/2008 12:11:02
29

you are right re state sponsored sectarianism,why should we split our kids up at age 5 and then wonder why in later years we have a problem.
This Macmillan clown attended a non denom secondary school yet claims HE suffered years of anti RC bile in ayrshire-to be a good liar requires a good memory.
Decent cathloics must cringe every time he opens his poisonous mouth.
41

Preacher man,

13/06/2008 12:21:04
41

Nail on the head Sir!

What this rancid little man is really saying is, if you don't do as we want, then the consequences will be costly to you and the Labour party.

However sadly in Scotland, The Labour party are fond of allowing the Bishops to rule the roost and form governmental policy.

Scotland's politicians should be ashamed of themselves for grubbing about in the gutter attempting to gain RC votes from bigots like MacMillan. Maybe it's about time non RC's started to threaten MP's for some parity and equal rights.

I voted Labour at the last election, I did not vote for Rome.
42

Preacher man,

13/06/2008 12:36:18
Didn't MacMillan say it was alright to sing songs about Irish terrorists at football grounds previously?

He must go through life feeling terribly isolated and paranoid this wee man.

PS Anyone know anything about his music?
43

Figgy,

Glasgow vanguardbears.com 13/06/2008 12:41:00
preacher man

he felt it was also acceptable to sing them on the streets of Scotland.
He is a pathetic individual.
Remind me again,who are the bigots?
44

Preacher man,

13/06/2008 12:48:36
Yep Figgy, here's something this man came away with previously. I'll leave everyone to make up their own minds about his motives. After all we do live in a democracy where holding MP's to ransom is frowned up.

"My other grandfather came from the other side, and was mixed up in IRA massacres of Black and Tans. In the end he fled to Pittsburgh, and some years ago I finally met his descendants."

45

Britishandproud,

13/06/2008 13:00:08
What a sad man this McMillan person must be. I believed that Scotland was trying to rid itself of the sectarianism badge of shame but when people such as McMillan and his ilk constantly go on and on and on about the Catholic votes he does himself no favours at all...

I beleived that we were trying to be an inclusive country for all to live in and not a country that constantly has to think about what they can or cant do ..just in case they upset the catholic voters!!!!

He is beginning to sound like Ali G when he says the expression.." Is it cause i iz Black"...only in Macmillans case its.." Is it cause i iz kafflik".....
46

Preacher man,

13/06/2008 13:08:21
Some further rantings from this dillusional madman. Nice to know what he thinks of his fellow Ayrshire citizens.

An unexpected and delightful request came my way recently. On 5th November 2005 a brand new statue of Brother Walfrid was unveiled outside the main entrance to Celtic Park. Otherwise known as Andrew Kerins he was the Marist brother from Sligo who was principal founder of Celtic Football Club in 1887/88. The sculpture was constructed by one of Scotland’s leading artists, Kate Robinson. The organising committee of supporters invited me to write some music to commemorate the event. A group of young musicians from the Coatbridge St. Patrick’s branch of Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann performed the new piece.



This turned out to be a welcome, but well-overdue return to some of my musical roots. When I was younger I used to play and sing the traditional music of Ireland and Scotland in the folk-clubs and pubs in the West. I’m not the only ‘Art’ composer to be seduced by folk music. Classical music is infused with vernacular forms through the centuries, and modern Scottish classical music is no different. Eddie McGuire, composer of ballets, operas and orchestral scores is a member of The Whistlebinkies; James Dillon, one of the leading post-Darmstadt modernists, was a piper as a boy. He is a huge Celtic supporter and even when he was featured composer at Musica Nova in 1981 he chose to miss one of his performances so he could attend the Celtic-Juventus game at Celtic Park. I once watched Gordon McPherson, Professor of Composition at the RSAMD, lead a ceilidh session with his accordion in Orkney. Lyell Cresswell, William Sweeney and Judith Weir have all dabbled in the deep and fruitful reservoir of the Scottish tradition.



Soaking up these influences were vital experiences for them, but the practical involvement could be fairly hazardous at times. During the 1980s miners’ strike some old school friends and I were invited to perform at a benefit ev
47

Preacher man,

13/06/2008 13:11:01
victimized strikers in a working men’s club in Ayrshire. The act before us was a bizarre banshee of a crone, crooning and whooping through a maudlin, drunken lament. We were convinced she was some undiscovered avant-garde comic genius, and were doubled up under the table in appreciative hysterics. We were informed, icily, that the song was about the Ibrox Disaster and deadly serious.



We tried to make amends by presenting a series of defiant workers’ songs, but the atmosphere was by now severely poisoned, our misinterpretation of the singer being further misinterpreted by the assembled Ayrshiremen. Desperately we launched into Bandiera Rossa – an even bigger mistake. Half of the audience thought it was an Irish Republican anthem, the other half thought we were singing in Latin, neither a good idea down in Ayrshire. The P.A. plug was ripped from the wall, and like a pack of hounds, they chased us out.



We were astonished that our repertoire of fraternal, socialist solidarity had so enraged the comrades. It was as if the sound of the music itself had provoked an instinctive fury. I have seen something of this rage in recent years in relation to Celtic. Much irritation has been expressed in the Scottish media about Celtic supporters’ Irishness – and Irish music and song feature prominently in the abuse – the ‘Have a Potato style of hokey Irishness’, as referred to by a Herald sports columnist, and their penchant for ‘deedly-deedly music’ as expressed by a Sun ‘writer’.1 In fact, this not-solely-neanderthal hostility to Irish culture in Scotland is usually expressed by those clamouring for people of Irish decent to abandon their Irishness and ‘assimilate’; to become more acceptable.This is in stark contrast to the Scottish Executive’s enthusiasm for ‘One Scotland Many Cultures’ where, it is suggested, people of different origins and cultures can live side by side, recognising that difference need not be a cause of social strife.



48

Mr Jackson,

Glasgow 13/06/2008 14:11:32
Oh lay off him.

He is mentally ill after all.
49

Vodka Victor,

Ivory Coast 13/06/2008 14:16:17
MacMillan is mentally ill, deluded, or both.

He is a prime example of the bigotted heirarchy by which we are controlled.

50

monkey man,

13/06/2008 16:01:27
#29

There is no discrimination against RC's from becoming Monarch...they just cannot be the Monarch as that also entails being Head Of The Protestant Church Of England.

Its as daft as saying why isn't there a Protestant Pope, and if there isn't it is because of "discrimination".?

51

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 23/06/2008 21:26:09
#29 & #52

The Act of Settlement does make specific exclusion for life of not only catholics but also people who marry catholics to never be allowed to hold position of monarch.

It is not a matter of opinion it is written down see quote below.

"That all and every person and persons, who shall or may take or inherit the said Crown, by virtue of the limitation of this present act, and is, are or shall be reconciled to, or shall hold communion with, the See or Church of Rome, or shall profess the popish religion, or shall marry a papist, shall be subject to such incapacities."
52

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 23/06/2008 21:31:45
Why is it only in the south west coast of Scotland anyone actually listens to political opinions of the church leaders.

They have had their day, their game is up and only the totally deluded still belief any of the rubbish they claim.

It will be a huge improvement in Glasgow if they do stop voting labour and also if they could also stop fighting about which church they do not attend.


53

Fanling,

Switzerland 03/07/2008 01:17:34
I am obviously very late onto this thread, and wish I'd seen it at its birth. Too late now for any feedback, I guess. James MacMillan is politically naive - and politically dangerous - in spouting his version of the Catholic line that demonises everything that runs counter to his stifling faith.

Like James MacMillan, I am a musician and an educator, but my political views, such as they are, are my own and do not stem from any embittered religious stance. Since discovering that MacMillan's many compositions take a programmatic form - his self-confessed personal take on Catholicism - I confess to being a touch less enthusiastic about objective listening. I've heard many of his works and testify to MacMillan's undoubted proficiency. Only to be spoiled by his ayatollah-like adherence to this numbnut tunnel vision which somehow devalues the beauty of his music.

That he is Catholic by upbringing is neither here nor there to me. My sticking point is that he uses this indoctrination-from-birth poison to colour his views of life in every department. Sadly, including his music past, present and future. His music I can certainly listen to and appreciate in isolation. I don't need a menu, especially a religious one. It is MacMillan's blindness to anything other than his etrenched Catholicism that switches me off.

Like so many brought up in a closeted religious environment, MacMillan's first course is to cover himself in almost the same victimhood garbage that the Muslim brotherhood is attempting to inflict on the Western world as we speak. What a great pity this is for a hugely talented Scotsman to let religion dominate his world view.





54

Florestan,

glasgow 09/08/2008 10:50:50
It is quite clear that posters here

a) have not read the articles by MacMillan in the Telegraph and Scottish Catholic Observer to which the Scotsman piece above is dealing with, and

b)are all anti-Catholic bigots.


Strangely MacMillan's central point is one that most above seem to agree with; that there is no such thing as a monolithic Catholic vote anymore. Labour cannot count on them in the way that they did in the past. Labour has changed, traditional ethical values remain the same. Abortion and other topics are goiing to become more and more important in future politics. That is MacMillan's point. He is right, again, whether you neanderthals like it or not.

Bye...

 

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