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Wee Frees call on Salmond to set up religious schools

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Published Date: 30 March 2008
THE "Wee Frees" have called for their own schools – espousing strict biblical principles – to be set up in Scotland.
The Free Church of Scotland has urged Alex Salmond to create faith schools based on hardline Presbyterian principles.

They have also called for abortion to be made illegal.

The editor of the Church's official magazine, Rev David Robertson, has
written to the First Minister as part of his National Conversation on Scotland's constitutional future and published the letter in the latest edition of the Church's Monthly Record.

He wrote: "You want us to have a National Conversation about the future government of Scotland. Good and well. Can we join in?"

The Dundee-based minister then outlined the Scotland the deeply conservative and Calvinist church wants to see.

"We would like to see a free country where people are really free," he wrote.

"We would like religious freedom – to be able to believe what the Bible says without fear of persecution or discrimination.

"Can we have our schools back? In 1872 the Free Church, together with the other Presbyterian churches, gave up their schools to be run by the state.

"This was done of the condition that they continued to be Christian schools run on a Christian ethos.

"As Scottish education has moved away from its Christian roots so it has drifted into a dumbed-down social education which increasingly achieves less and less.

"The result of this is that the rich can send their children off to 'good schools' while the poor are left with sink schools and little prospect of advancement."

He also used emotive and highly controversial language to call for the laws on abortion to be changed.

"We need a Scotland that cares for the weak and powerless, especially the unborn child who is ripped from the womb and slaughtered before she even has a chance to speak."

But Robertson stressed that the Church did not endorse any political party or have an official view on independence.

"We do not preach politics from our pulpits," he wrote.

"Anyone would struggle to find out what the Bible says about Scottish independence, the rate of income tax, wind farms on Lewis or golf courses in Aberdeenshire, because it says nothing.

"We do not have a religious opinion on independence and there are a variety of views within our churches on the subject."

Last week Salmond launched the second phase of his National Conversation where he urged trade unions, the business community, churches and voluntary organisations to contribute to the debate.

A spokesman for the National Secular Society said: "We are against faith schools of any kind and argue that an integrated and tolerant society will not develop by practising religious apartheid on children at the school gates, segregating them on the basis of their parents' beliefs and admitting some while turning away others."





The full article contains 483 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Evia,

30/03/2008 00:54:55
Religious Schools are the last thing we need. End of story.
2

Fanling,

Taiwan 30/03/2008 02:14:55
Any attempt by the Free Church of Scotland, or any other religious body, to bully the body politic into accepting another raft of "faith schools" is living in a selfish cloud-cuckoo land.

It's time to jettison schools (subsidised by the public) which segregate normal, innocent children from the age of five. Scotland needs no further divisiveness in the name of superstition.
3

Willie Macleod,

Wick 30/03/2008 04:27:20
#1 #2 Well said Evia and Fanling we have enough division without this.
4

Frodo the Scot,

outside lookin in 30/03/2008 06:00:21
Go for it. That means in this democracy we can promote
Sharia schools....Wahabi schools...Roman catholic schools...George of the jungle schools....How sick are we becomming?
5

Gregorf,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 09:23:04
I can only hope that he did not publish this on the Sabbath?
6

Calum Crubag,

Dùn Eideann 30/03/2008 09:44:51
#5 - he did. He shall burn. Or else be dragged to the gates of Stornoway and stoned to death as the 'good' book demands.

Religious schools ARE the last thing we need. If churches want them then let them pay for them. The 90% of non-church attending taxpayers should not pay for the belief choice of a few. The same counts for Catholic schools or Islamic ones.

Btw, here's the petition for Sunday ferries to Lewis.
http://www.gopetition.com/region/222/8185.html

Creidseamh? Dith mhor na ceille!
7

G_C,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 09:55:41
It's hardly good sport to hold a discussion on the day when the Wee Frees can't come online to defend themselves. You can see why they want faith schools though, when one group gets them. That's why it's time to roll back state assisted sectarianism ang get rid of all publically funded faith schools
8

jdships,

30/03/2008 10:04:17
1 & 2
Excellent posts !!
Need say no more
9

Bascule,

30/03/2008 10:04:37
The religious nuts have seen their opportunity and, true to their colours, grabbed it with both greedy hands.
It took us hundreds of years to deny the mumbo-jumbo merchants and push back their creeds of belief and ignorance. There is no difference between these institutions and muslim madrasas. Scotland's children shouldn't be subjected to indoctrination by the twisted 'faith' of superstitious cowards.
Don't drag our children, or our society, back into the Dark Ages.
10

Mikey,

30/03/2008 11:02:16
Oh, for crying out loud! What next? Scientology schools?

Why not just educate the kids and save the god bothering for the parents?
11

Pontificatus Maximus of Avignon,

30/03/2008 11:06:20
#10
Quite right! perhaps there should be five main types of State school to meet Robertson's aim.
Christian schools, Muslim schools, Jewish Schools. Other (Buddhists, Taoists etc) and Atheist Schools.
By my reckoning that should produce about 20 - 30 sub-types of school to cater for the different sects and cults within each main type Each would need its own Directorate and promoted post structure within each local authority and school so just think of the jobs for the boys to be created.

Perhaps Roberston should go back to the drawing board and start again.
He could begin with twinning his congregation at St Peter's in Dundee with St Peter's in Rome. I am certain the minister of St Peter's in Rome (Rev Ratzinger, (lately Hitlerjugend) would be very interested in the undertaking which ministers of the Free Church sect have to give upon ordination / induction in regard to the Catholic faith.
Perhaps someone from that sect could publish that undertaking here as a model of inter-denominational harmony?
Pax Vobiscum!
12

Guga II,

Rockall 30/03/2008 11:29:49
All religious based schools should be scrapped or, at the very least, not be funded from the public purse.

They are merely a method of brainwashing kids, and are divisive by their very nature.
13

BobD,

30/03/2008 11:37:19
Near unanimity, which is encouraging, although polticians will pay no heed in any case.

However, it doesn't go far enough - what's needed is to remove religion not only from education but from all areas of public life. The proper places for religious observation and teaching are home and church.

Imagine, for example, a Glasgow City Council with a Muslim majority in power. That would give them religious control over city licensing laws.
14

Glasgow Jim,

Glasgow 30/03/2008 11:41:37
Is Salmond and his band of Tartan Tories think there's a vote to be had in it; he'll try to find someone who'll pay for it to happen.
15

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern cenral Scotland 30/03/2008 11:48:54
#1 - If religious schools are the last thing we need, what's the first thing?

Seriously though, while the posts here, are in the main pretty good, I wouldn't boot this out the park just yet.

It gives us a chance to have a 'root and branch' review of the religious requirement (if any remains) in the educational field.

If, after that there is a strong enough feeling in favour of religious schools, let those who wish to subscribe.

Have the educational element of their local taxation abated, so that they can fund the schools themselves, and pay the teachers from elsewhere. other than public funds.

In this way we would have a more honest representation, without 'Rome on the rates' and the tendency for religious schools, which currently means 'catholic', to maintain a spurious lead in league tables by expelling their unruly pupils into the mainstream schools, takng advantage of the legal requirement of local authorities to provide children with an education.

How about that for a discussion...
16

GMCD,

dundee 30/03/2008 12:27:53
The "rev" Robertson could set up a religious school tomorrow - what he wants is for us, the tax-payers to do it for him...
Come 'on just pray to your god he'll surely provide....

However we should also end the apartheid of catholic schools
17

busbyfh,

30/03/2008 12:50:13
# 15
Not a Rangers fan are you ?

Thought so.

Amazing how many rangers fans are against the SNP purely because they have the cheek to oppose "The Union".

Any religious schools should be run as per private schools with funding coming from private sources - not extra/larger funds coming from the average tax payer.
18

gallman,

Lewis 30/03/2008 13:05:12
Agree - there should be no state funding for single faith /religious school. I thought Christianity was about reaching out to and understanding other people, not about building walls around your own beliefs?

By the way the Calum Crubag (6) the link to the current online ferry petition is

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Ferry7days/signatures.html
19

bill-alba,

Fife 30/03/2008 13:24:38
Glasgow Jim...I think you've got the wrong man/party there..it was this Scottish government that got rid of putting money into selected schools for selected people....you must be a labour supporter telling lies in the vague hope that someone will believe you.
20

joppa jock,

Huntingdon 30/03/2008 14:00:30
I went to an ordinary state school in Edinburgh and never actually had any contact with Catholics until I was working. I was surprised to find they were just the same as me, in fact I went out with a lovely Catholic lass for a while. The division between the religions was strengthened by the lack of opportunity for young people to mix at school and any more religious schools should be resisted.
21

,

30/03/2008 14:16:54
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22

,

30/03/2008 14:22:18
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23

Media 1,

Cape Town 30/03/2008 15:43:54
Rev David Robertson what a cheek you have! Why not keep religion out of schools and allow the children to learn and mature without infecting their minds with your evil?
If you want to live your life judging people by your disturbing standards, then do so, but leave innocent children out of it.

The day we rid our societies of religion will be the first day of peace we will ever know.
24

wolfette,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 16:27:02
NO publicly funded schools should be religious. Doesn't matter if you're Church of Scotland, Roman Catholic, Islamic, Jewish, "Wee Free" or Pagan - you want a school based on your religious principles YOU PAY FOR IT.

Take ALL religion out of tax funded schools.
25

Conan the Librarian™,

30/03/2008 16:34:02
23
"bigoted aetheist sectarianists"

LOL
26

Navvy,

30/03/2008 16:41:54
#14 now that is a good idea
27

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 18:25:32
#25 > NO publicly funded schools should be religious. Doesn't matter if you're Church of Scotland, Roman Catholic, Islamic, Jewish, "Wee Free" or Pagan - you want a school based on your religious principles YOU PAY FOR IT.<

I'm not a great fan of schools based on religion - but don't the followers of religions pay tax just like the rest of us?
28

Kenny A,

30/03/2008 18:36:13
As a We Free myself, I am against the idea of seperate faith schools. Not needed.
29

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 30/03/2008 19:06:18
#28 - You're correct. However, that's why I am suggesting that those who wish to 'opt out' of the public funded school system should have their council tax abated by that proportion that goes to fund education, and they be made to subscribe independently to the school system of their choice. They would then have to find and pay the teachers, buildings, equipment and deal with their own problem children within their own school system, rather than throwing them out like the RCs do into the mainstream and burdening the majority tax payer. Simplicity itself.
30

Itchy,

30/03/2008 19:38:55
"We do not preach politics from our pulpits," he wrote."

That's exactly what you are doing.

State and religion should be kept separate.
31

,

30/03/2008 19:52:09
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32

Grumpster,

Glasgow 30/03/2008 20:08:39
I am a product of a non dom or 'proddie' school.. and remember well the fights with the 'tim' school near by.

This was over 30 years ago and it still goes on and it will continue to go on until we secularise education!

We, as a small devolved portion of this country, have a limited budget for education, we do not make best use of the funds available by supporting 'faith based' educational establishments.

How much does bussing pupils form one faith miles to a school supporting that faith cost?

How much has been spent on 'places of worship' attached to school? Is that paid for by the church involved?

How much is spent making sure teachers are of the 'right moral fibre' to teach in these schools.

How many good teachers have been left to rot on lower scales because they cannot get a promoted post due to their adherence to the 'wrong' religion..

In this day and age it is pathetic to cowtow to the 'churches'.. religion begins and ends at home and that is where it should stay.

Time to look hard at our educational system and have a root and branch reform.. to make best use of our cash and to improve the life of all... regardless of faith.

33

,

30/03/2008 20:32:21
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34

Fanling,

Hong Kong 30/03/2008 21:17:39
#34 Vincent-W

Whatever it is that you imagine "modern education as I know it" to be, it is perfectly plain that because of your entrenched Roman Catholic perspective you will only ever view education from that narrow angle.

Nobody else can hold a candle to that as your eyes and ears are permanently closed to the alternative of education minus a force-fed and meaningless religious (i.e. in your case, RC) input. My views on all forms of religion in education are based in reality and on personal experience. As the many posters above, whom you predictable deride, unanimously agree.


35

hertscot,

30/03/2008 22:12:22
Salmond - NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
36

Calum Crubag,

30/03/2008 22:19:36
#34 - you are and should be completely free to practice your religion at home and in church. It should not however be subsidised by taxapayers. That is not sectarian - the same goes for every superstition, be it Islam, Wee Free or Santa Claus. How can someone who's atheist be sectarian??!!
37

cameroni,

UAE 30/03/2008 22:34:58
The last thing Scotland needs is any more state funded segregated religious schools. In fact there should be a concerted effort to abolish state funded Catholic schools. In the interest of equality, surely if the Scottish Government continue to pay for separate religious indoctrination for one minority religious group then they should be prepared to listen to the demands of all others. However, the answer is simple - there is no place in a modern Scotland for devisive religious appartheid.
38

BK,

30/03/2008 23:14:00
Do they know that "Presbyterians" is an anagram of "Britney Spears?"
39

Fanling,

Hong Kong 30/03/2008 23:26:23
#39 LOL! At 18 months of age (nobody asked if I wanted to be) I was christened as one, but would prefer Britney any day.
40

Fanling,

Hong Kong 30/03/2008 23:28:10
Thwack!! The sound of the back of my partner's hand on my head. She is not amused.
41

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 31/03/2008 00:18:22
Religious education should be on the national curriculum in every school in Scotland. This would be a topical subject which looks at all the mainstream, man made, organised religions.

Who knows, it might even lead to more tolerance.

If that were the case, then there would be nothing to stop organised religions having their own denominational schools as long as they were self-funded and adhered to the national curriculum.

The acceptance of a plethora of private denominational schools is the natural counterbalance to secular state schools. Tolerance and broadmindedness is the key to it all but the national curriculum on religious education may be the lockmaster's delight.
42

Grumpster,

Glasgow 31/03/2008 01:29:16
Vincent-W,
30/03/2008 20:32:21
Grumpster - you perpetuate a myth that existed 40 years ago! You do not describe modern education as I know it. For crying out loud get out of your time warp and visit the modern world!

No myth... I have a 12 yo and a 9 yo at school NOW!

The local denominational school has just been rebuilt - completely with a nice big new part for indoctrination.

The local non denominational has been forced to fight for every penny, yet it's buildings are 50years older than the denominational school.

It is not I who lives in the time warp.. but someone you see in the mirror everyday...

Remove your head from the grip of the old men in frock coats and see what is really going on .. how many condemned to die over the 'churches' stance on contraception in Africa?

43

,

31/03/2008 03:16:36
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44

,

31/03/2008 03:18:42
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45

David Robertson,

Dundee 31/03/2008 07:21:46
Interesting to see the comments - ironically many complaining about 'religious' schools breeding ignorance and intolerance, and yet themselves displaying a profound ignorance and intolerance. Some simple facts -

1) Why should one 'religious' philosophy - that of secularism - be the only state funded option?

2) We pay taxes as well.

3) You do realise that Scotland's education system was founded upon Christianity and that non-denominational schools are meant to be non-denominational not non-Christian?

4) I would not want 'Free Church' schools. I do want Christian schools - that is schools based on the Christian teachings of tolerance, respect, love and the value of knowledge. It is as Scotland's schools have moved away from this approach that we have moved into a 'dumbed down' education system which is more about social engineering than it is about education.

5) All I ask is for freedom. Freedom to return to our traditional Scottish values and to educate our children according to our values. If the atheists want to set up their own schools, fine (be interesting to see how many parents would want to send their children there!) - but I do not see why my taxes should pay for the atheist philosophy to be the only philosophy on which education is based.
46

Grumpster,

Glasgow 31/03/2008 09:00:49
Your last sentence is yet another myth - try to get your head around the success of the ABC approach in Uganda.

And what about the rest of that continent?

http://www.sasi.group.shef.ac.uk/worldmapper/display.php?selected=227

http://www.sasi.group.shef.ac.uk/worldmapper/display.php?selected=255

Like your ideas for education you can be very selective...
47

,

31/03/2008 09:58:59
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48

,

31/03/2008 10:13:20
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49

Calum Crubag,

31/03/2008 12:52:31
Vincent, better than 10 out of 10, without condoms or exploding cars, whatever you're on about. Get a grip. Your 'faith' would drag us back to the dark ages.
50

Grumpster,

Glasgow 31/03/2008 13:21:35
It was not I that introduced the Condom word, I said contraception.. that is in all its guises.

You can't stop people from wanting to procreate, 'go forth and multiply' the good book says.

Well if you're going to practice the multiplying bit, you mite as well be as safe as you can be. Condoms may not be 100% but they are at least infinitely better than nothing at all!

You lambast me for being culturally hide bound and a pig headed arrogance.. take a deep breath man.. obviously I am pulling the bells of your 'moral' faith - what part of your faith denies a person the right to protect their health/life?

http://www.sasi.group.shef.ac.uk/worldmapper/display_extra.php?selected=374

Does map this not say something... does it not pull at your heart strings that 90% of those deaths could possibly been prevented by using a complete package of contraceptive ideas?

Abstinence may make the heart grow fonder and give you a longer life.. but you'll find damn few who can abstain.

Even the best of us fall off the high horse once in a while.
51

BobD,

31/03/2008 13:51:58
It seems to me that the contributions are becoming less relevant as they go on.

There's also too much petty "point-scoring" - this is a very serious subject!
52

,

31/03/2008 16:32:43
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53

Grumpster,

Glasgow 31/03/2008 18:35:11
BobD - You are right sadly in the face of these extreme bigots proper debate is impossible!

Lemme see... pig headed, stupid, ignorant, culturally hidebound, narrow minded, bigot...

Not once have I denigrated your character in this fashion. Yet you take it upon yourself to make snide and cheap remarks.

I opened up a debate with the comment that we as a small part of the UK couldn't properly support denominational and non denominational schools as the budget set for education was limited and that we could do better for all children by the secularisation of schools.

I outlined the costs and problems with running a 2 schools policy with one bound to 'faith' and 'generic faith' principals..

For this I get the outpourings of someone who flat refuses to look out from behind his 'faith' glasses and see what is really going on the the world.

Part of a free society is the ability to have free speech and ideas... if you cannot see my side then that is up to you but - please refrain from character assassination, I have not attacked you personally....

I have many friends and colleagues of multiple faiths, I have been in both faith and non denominational schools..

If I am bound by an anti religion strait jacket then you are surely bound by your religious one...
54

Calum Crubag,

01/04/2008 13:06:31
Vincent - if Christians are so sure of their God and faith, why do they have to brainwash kids with it? Why not leave it up to young adults to decide for themselves? Teach about different beliefes and philosophy yes but teaching ONE unsubstantiated view is wrong.

As to my experience of religion. Hard Presbyterians were bad enough. Catholic-raised friends have a litany of horror stories though, especially a Spanish friend who went to a school run by Catholic nuns under Fascist Franco in the early 70s. Monsters.

It's time to leave these bible-bashing nutters in the past. We have Catholics opposing science and medicine and we have Wee Frees opposing Dawkins in Inverness and demanding their own kind of sinister 'faith' school. Give them an inch...
55

,

01/04/2008 17:56:18
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56

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 04/04/2008 04:23:20
Church and COUNTRY should always be seperate!!!!
57

Pro United Kingdom,

Scotland 04/04/2008 20:59:20
The Church of Scotland is 100% right to ask for equality within our Education, why not others get what they want within their community.

Salmond states the faith schools model is the way forward. He has praised RC schools and granted a way forward for Muslim Schools.

2 options either give Protestants their own schools or send all kids to one school.

WE DEMAND EQUAL RIGHTS FOR PROTESTANTS - END OF !

58

,

23/12/2008 14:31:49
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59

Dún Aenghus,

03/07/2009 18:38:48
#57 According to recent statistics,there are very few Protestants in Scotland! By Protestant I mean those who pracice their Protestant faith.Do you know of any other kind of Protestant?

 

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