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'Pro-IRA' fan stands firm



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Published Date: 22 November 2007
AN ACADEMIC who heads a Celtic FC supporters' trust yesterday refused to apologise for defending fans who sing pro-IRA songs.
Dr Jeanette Findlay, chair of the Celtic Trust and a Glasgow University lecturer, sparked fury when she told the BBC on Tuesday that such chants were "songs from a war of independence".

Last night, she described her comments as "relatively mild remarks". She added: "Why would I want to apologise?"



The full article contains 76 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Scullion,

Canada 22/11/2007 01:53:11

Let it slide. That issue is almost in the past and should now be of interest only to historians.
She's entitled to her opinion and nothing will be gained by dragging it all back up.

2

Ian.M,

North Ayrshire 22/11/2007 06:11:53

Personally I fell Dr Findlay is a fame seeker who brings nothing but bad publicity to Celtic. She represents only around 200 fans. The media must love her though, given that she allows them to 'Celtic bash' every year around AGM time.

3

beeree,

22/11/2007 07:09:05

An academic asks why support for an openly fascist grouping is cause for concern?

Fascists are against everything academia stands for. When has Sinn Fein/IRA allowed freedom of speech, freedom of worship, freedom of association?

Ask the McConvilles; ask the McCartneys; ask the Quinns; to name just the better known names.


"that such chants were "songs from a war of independence"

Poppycock! Try testing that statement. It is inaccurate.

4

FOOTBALLAGAINSTRACISMEUROPE,

22/11/2007 07:32:12

3,

Findlay made it clear in the interview she was referring to the War of Independence and not to the Provisional IRA.

Findlay made Campbell aware that many Celtic fans do not regard the men and women of the 1916 period as 'terrorists.'The Irish government recognise the sacrifices of these patriots every year with a comemmoration
around the Easter period.These men and women are generally accepted Irish patriots.At the comemmoration this year the British Ambassador to Dublin was in attendance.

Throughout Ireland there are roads,streets,avenues,train stations,bus stations,libraries,barracks,sporting clubs which are named in honour of these men and women.The people who fought were Catholic,Protestant and i daresay others who had no religious adherence.They had came together in a common cause,to remove the English presence from Irish soil.On Saturday afternoon i witnessed Alex McLeish,Lee McCulloch,Craig Gordon et al sing along with their countrymen with a stirring rendition of Flower of Scotland,a song paying tribute to those who fought to remove the English presence from Scottish soil.This was and is quite rightly regarded as an illustration of fervent patriotism and pride.This has not courted any controversy and why would it.It would seem patriotic airs are only problematic when they are Irish.

When Findlay made it clear she was talking about songs reflecting the period above then the issue becomes irrelevant.My frustration is also aimed at Celtic FC who are incredibly guilty of passive racism in that as a focal point for the Irish community in Scotland they are found wanting.

5

Anti-Imperialist,

Norway 22/11/2007 07:51:33

I would expect a quality newspaper like the Scotsman to have a sufficient grasp of history to know that the Provisional IRA and the IRA are not one in the same. Now whether Celtic fans sing songs in support of the Provisional IRA rather than the IRA is open for discussion, but this is NOT what is being discussed here.

Is the Scotsman really holding to the view that the IRA - the men and women who fought a war of national liberation against the British imperialist occupation like so many other countries around the world - are "traitors and terrorists"? Would such descriptions be used against the Patriots so idolized in the United States who also fought against the British Crown to win their independence?

The appalling ignorance in the UK concerning our history and the true nature of Empire is what allows such misrepresentation to be accepted as fact. We should be honouring and celebrating the founding of the Irish Free State / Republic of Ireland as a step forward for freedom and democracy. The IRA were key in achieving this.

Whatever your view of the legitimacy or otherwise of the killings of the Provisional IRA / INLA / Continuity IRA / Real IRA, this has no bearing on the IRA that fought in the War of Independence that Janette Findlay clearly refers to. A similarity of name and a deliberate attempt to claim the legitimacy of an earlier struggle do not invalidate the earlier struggle!

How about asking anyone who condemns Janette Findlay for supporting the IRA whether they condemn the men and women responsible for founding of Ireland, one of our closest neighbours? How about asking the Irish goverment if they consider these people terrorists or traitors? How about asking the British goverment this as well?

There is a story here but it's not the tabloidesque spin that has been put on it. Was the Irish struggle against foreign occupation that resulted in the establishment of a free nation legitimate? If so, and fight

6

Cadgers,

Perth 22/11/2007 09:24:57

#3 beeree you hit a nerve there:-)

7

JamesTCB,

22/11/2007 09:28:38

The argument put forth by 4 & 5 above can at best be described as naive.

When referred to by the media, Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness are not known as representing Sinn Fein/PIRA but Sinn Fein/IRA.

Ask the Mancunians who it was that bombed their shopping centre killing, injuring and maiming their friends and family, they say IRA not PIRA or any other derivitive.

Ask the people of London why train stations don't have litter bins, they tell you it's because the IRA used to put bombs in them.

Whether 4 & 5 above like it or not the use of pro IRA add-ons etc to songs is abhorant and needs to stop. The argument that they are promoting is identical to the argument used to say the "f" word is not sectarian. Phrases, words, initials change their meaning over time, this is such an instance.

Finally it is not just enough for Celtic and for that matter Rangers supporters and both clubs, with regards to sectarianism, to do the right thing they must be seen to be doing the right, to attack Celtic as 4 above has done is not going to help defeat sectarianism one little bit.

8

Backofthenet,

22/11/2007 09:30:42

I'd like to see where Ms Findlay supposedly made it clear she was referring to the 1916 period. I fear the Celtic spindoctors are out in force. The fact that she describes her remarks as "relatively mild" is indicative of what a hardliner she is - and there is a significant element with such views in the Celtic support.

9

Lothian Unionist,

22/11/2007 09:35:42

Oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear

The hypocrisy from some on this board beggars belief. The very same people who condemn legal organisations such as the Orange Order and Apprentice Boys of Derry, have no problem in saluting and remembering a terrorist organisation. A terrorist organisation that chose the outbreak of the Great War to make it's move, then the very same terrorist organisation that caused so much grief and heartache with their campaign of terror from the 70's onward. A terrorist organisation, that claims to be on ceasefire, but is is still killing people who don't sit within their terrorist principles.

Indeed many people on this board, in the past, have commented on Rangers Football Club and it's problems with sectarian behaviour. So by the reckoning above, would you now support any Rangers fan who sang or chooses to sing, songs about the UVF? An organisation that gave their all for their country in the bloody battlefields of the Somme?

For the record I believe that none of these songs have a place in a football ground, Rangers have went a very long way in a short space of time to eradicating such songs and the support in the main has accepted it and moved on. It would appear Celtic and their academic supporters and willing to carry on singing such songs and hide behind the pathetic banner of them being 'political'. Whatr absolute tosh.

In the interests of balance, I congratulate Celtic Football Club for very quickly distancing themselves from this lunatic and also for the majority of decent ordinary Celtic fans who know there is no place for this drivel. Sadly there would appear to be plenty who will support this bigot and he warped views on life.

As for as her being an academic, her feet should not touch the floor as she is not fit for purpose.

10

Urban Guerrilla,

22/11/2007 10:14:35

I'm not worried about Dr Findlay, who represents the underdog.

There's lots of pretty nasty anti-Catholicism in Scotland still, but I've never heard of anti-Protestantism. IMO the blame for sectarianism rests firmly with bigoted Protestants.

11

GP,

22/11/2007 10:35:30

10# utterly wrong.
I defend her right to voice her opinion.
However in defending her right I also defend the right of those thinking of ther historical events.
Yes flower of scotland should be banned if we are true to this crazy laws we have tried to impose against free speech.
The orangement sing historical songs in the same manner as the IRA celtic supporters.
My point is SO WHAT.
A song is a song get over it folks, educate your children to be free thinking and inquisative about all relgions and they will grow up without any offence being taken when someone sings an anti (anyone) song.

12

Lothian Unionist,

22/11/2007 10:38:27

#10

Glad you cleared that up then save us all arguing as to who is right or wrong.

Perhaps you should ask Mr McNab the school teacher who was refused promotion because he wasn't an RC at the 'state funded' RC School.


Theres an example for you, and by you not being worried by Findlays comments does that mean you endorse them?

13

Urban Guerrilla,

22/11/2007 10:47:33

#12, Lothian Unionist. Why on earth did he expect to get promotion at an RC school if he wasn't an RC? He must have been trying to pick a fight, which is a perfect example of what I mean.

And yes, why not sing about the Irish War of Independence? I'm happy to sing about the Scottish one in 'Flower of Scotland'!

14

English by marriage,

Glasgow 22/11/2007 10:54:59

Ms Findlay may be entitled to her view but supporting the idea of a "political" group who have killed more of their own civilians than the armed forces that they are against in their fight for independence is bigotry in its highest form and for her comments to come on the day that the anit-bigotry campaign starts makes her look stupid.
I know many who will disagree with what i have just said but we should be getting back to is the basics - football being about the game not the religion we unite as a nation but at club level we have some of the worst fans in the world.
In response to GP about a song being just a song is uninformed, flower of scotland is our unofficial scottish anthem sung by many all over the world. IRA chants provoke hostility as they create images of war, terrorism and violence and that can not be condoned

15

Lothian Unionist,

22/11/2007 11:03:29

So by your reckoning and the RC School authorities, the man is fit to teach, capable for promotion yet declined because doesn't practice the RC faith. Surely that's bigotry at it's worst? Why give the job in the first place of he was never going to be able to move on in life.

Perhaps all the non scots in RBS & HBOS should never achieve promotion unless they are Scottish?

Please don't try and justify either Findlays drivel or the ridiculous bigotry that was tried on Mr McNab. By the way Mr McNab won his employment tribunal against the Council. Were they bigots as well??

16

Patrick O'Flaherty,

Coatrbridge 22/11/2007 12:14:49

Quick point to Lothian Unionist. As has been said many times here, people are making a distinction between the Provos and the brave men who fought against oppression and gained independence for Ireland by the attaining the formation of the Republic in 1922.

Do you make the same distinction or is any reference to the IRA a reference to an illegal terrorist organisation in your book?

17

Anti-Imperialist,

Norway 22/11/2007 12:27:59

Hi JamesTCB,

Thanks for the reply.

I think the points you raise are valid in terms of the debate. A more knowledgeable and incisive interviewer than Nicky Campbell might have been able to bring these matters out.

What about, for example, in a song clearly about an old man reminiscing about his part in the Easter Uprising of 1916, there is an ahistorical add-on of "Provisional Wing" to the line "I joined the IRA"? What about songs that don't mention any organisations but refer to the current situation such as "Aiden McAnespie"? These might have brought out some interesting answers.

Instead we have the same old conflation of the entire history of resistance to British occupation of Ireland with the IRA's violence and bombings since The Troubles flared up again in the late 60s. The British people don't have an understanding of the history of Ireland and that is deliberate. They have been fed a steady diet of lies that Britain merely keeps the peace between two warring tribes of sectarian killers.

The reason this is important today is exactly because of Iraq. If we learned the truth about Britain, the Empire and our role in the world in the past we might be less inclined to accept the nonsense about moral or ethical foreign policies, humanitarian intervention, etc.

Now, a football ground isn't really the place to challenge officially sponsored mistruths. Again, Campbell could have asked whether even if they had the "right" to sing such songs whether it was expedient (with the add-ons issue, etc.) but it was kept at such a superficial level.

The whole interview was a trap. The idea was to extract the headlines "Celtic fans rep condemns terrorist supporters" or "Celtic fans rep refuses to condemn terrorist supporters". Janette Findlay tried to make an important distiction that should have provided the basis for some pretty tough questions, but it was triv

18

Backofthenet,

22/11/2007 12:41:33

"Janette Findlay tried to make an important distiction" (#17)

Again, I'd like to see some evidence of this.

19

Patrick O'Flaherty,

Coatrbridge 22/11/2007 13:07:20

Backofthenet #8 + 18.

I too would like to see some evidence of this. However, I object to your broadbrushing and inference that there is a "significant element with such views in the Celtic support".

As a Celtic supporter, let me assure you that is not the case. Whilst I would agree that there is an element of the away support who do sing the add ons to, in my view, perfectly legitimate songs (thereby rendering them offensive), it certainly is not significant. At home games, it is unheard of.

Please remember, it's not Celtic fans who were told specifically what songs they could not sing.

20

Anti-Imperialist,

Norway 22/11/2007 13:12:50

#18

"You are talking about songs about the IRA but again, many of those songs are songs from what was essentially a war of independence going back right into the 1920s infact going back over a hundred years."

Now Campbell could have focussed on drawing out songs that do refer to The Troubles or the PIRA but he didn't. Simplistic interviewing, sensationalist reporting.

Rather than condemnation of this ahistorical organisation called "the IRA" being a prerequisite for inclusion in this debate, I'd like to see an acceptance that the armed resistance in Ireland that lead to independence was justifiable as the prerequisite. You won't get if from bigots like Lothian Unionist, but that's to be expected.

Anyone who doesn't accept this, should also state their views on the ANC in South Africa, the Maquis in occupied France and the PLO in Palestine. That would give us a good idea of where they are coming from.

21

Patrick O'Flaherty,

Coatrbridge 22/11/2007 13:16:59

Anti-Imperialist #21

Nicky Campbell was just doing his job. His job is to ask questions and it was up to Findlay to argue her case. She did that spectacularly badly in my view.

It's a bit like Paxman asking, for example, Tony Blair "Did you lie about the WMDs in Iraq?". It is up to Blair to refute that insinuation. The fact that Blair left Number 10 on his own terms would suggest he did a good job of dodging the bullets. Findlay, I would argue, didn't even have a case to answer and she let herself get sucked in by Campbell. For a supposed academic, she isn't exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer.

22

GP,

22/11/2007 13:28:57

19# is that song you refer to not historical?
Is it soemone heritage?
Is it their belief of how they freed themselves or whatever.
Most miss the point, they are just songs.
Stick and stone may break my bones but names will never hurt me. true as ever it was.
Shoudl it be upgraded to bullets and bombs may kill my folk but names will never hurt me?
All of these songs have some truth or lie based in historical events, as before education is key to removing the actual issue. A song does nothing but make noise., completely differnt sound to that of a gun or bomb.

23

Wee Pal Joe,

22/11/2007 13:34:13

#18,

So some of the songs refer to events about a hundred years ago and some don't. Interesting. Some folk seem to have been giving the impression that the songs are only about long-ago events.

24

Anti-Imperialist,

Norway 22/11/2007 13:36:24

#22 Patrick O'Flaherty

My point is that Nicky Campbell did his job as an interviewer very badly. He could EASILY have focussed things specifically on the PIRA and we'd been having a different discussion now.

Instead, he went for the sensationalist slant. He asked a loaded question, which allowed Janette Findlay to answer it in a specific way that effectively recast the question. Rather than clarify things or refocus the question, he maintained the ambiguity.

25

Patrick O'Flaherty,

Coatrbridge 22/11/2007 13:36:59

#24

What songs are you referring to that don't refer to events long ago?

26

Patrick O'Flaherty,

Coatrbridge 22/11/2007 13:38:22

#25 AI.

It's not the job of the interviewer to clarify. That's the job of the interviewee. My point is that Findlay was a very bad interviewee rather than Cambell being a bad interviewer.

27

Anti-Imperialist,

Norway 22/11/2007 13:44:46

#19 Wee Pal Joe

No, I think I've been quite clear. I quoted two examples earlier that Campbell could have used IF he had been acquainted with the subject.

He didn't. You can only take Janette Findlay's answers to the questions she was asked, not the questions she should have been asked.

My take on the interview is this.

1. Findlay was asked about terrorist songs.
2. She recast the question to say that MOST of the songs weren't about a terrorist organisation (basically saying that the War of Independence was legitimate).
3. She was correct in saying these things.
4. She wasn't challenged on songs about the current troubles or bastardized versions of the songs that she was talking about.

28

Anti-Imperialist,

Norway 22/11/2007 13:48:55

# 27 Patrick Flaherty

Only if he is going for the sensationalist approach.

It is absolutely the job of an interviewer to restate his question when the interviewee has recast it as someone he didn't want to ask.

I think it was just sensationalism though and he didn't really want a debate, just a good quote.

29

Patrick O'Flaherty,

Coatrbridge 22/11/2007 13:51:05

#29 Perhaps. But the fact of the matter is that it's not Nicky Campbell who has tarnished the good name of Celtic and our wonderful supporters. It's a so called academic who really should know better.

30

beeree,

22/11/2007 14:26:59

It is marvellous that from all the replies that no one has seeked to challenge my assertion regarding her statement as being illogical.

I am glad to see that none of the apologists have dared challenge my assertion that Sinn fein/IRA are a fascist organisation.

I am also surprised that there has been no attempts to muddy the waters regarding an academic being against free speech.

P.S. Before anyone starts attacking me I've no idea what these songs are or the add-ons.

Question> So the Irish War of independence ended when. 1922, 1195, 2006 at some time in the future? Or does the answer to this depend on whom you are speaking to?

Those who are, or appear to be, in favour of

31

bornNbred,

talking a slow wlk to the asylum 22/11/2007 15:01:50

#15 - RC schools are there to teach children AND to ensure that Roman Catholic children receive a Catholic upbringing.

So why should the school be run by someone who is not able to provide that catholic upbringing!!

I agree with #13 this teacher was merely picking a fight that any person with common sense would realise is daft!! On that basis I would like to offer my assistance to you in locating your common sense.

32

Anti-Imperialist,

Norway 22/11/2007 15:10:09

#31 Beeree

You were ignored because your characterisation of the IRA as fascist is simply ludicrous. You obviously have no understanding of what fascism is and are using it as a catch-all insult that no-one can oppose. It adds nothing here.

Maybe you'll furnish us with Sinn Fein's or the IRA's links to monopoly capitalism? It's corporatist and statist ideology? It's antipathy to trade unions and other forms of working class organisation? Nah, give us some banalities about violence and democracy instead...

Your point about the War of Independence however is a good one. I think most people would say that it ended with the formation of the free state, others including those supporters of the Official IRA, INLA or the Provos would argue that they are a continuation.

Whether you accept or otherwise that the "war" is or was continuing has no bearing on whether or not you think that the struggle that lead to the creation of the Free State was legitimate or not.

33

,

22/11/2007 15:19:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1165844, Article id was mapped to record!
34

Urban Guerrilla,

22/11/2007 15:30:34

#34, the Irish people had been consistently voting for Home Rule for 30 years before 1916, and nothing had been achieved. Democratic?

And why would the Irish people have felt any obligation in 1916 to the British people who were occupying them? On that basis, you'd call the French Resistance cowardly for attacking the Germans when they were fighting Britain, the USA and the USSR!

As for Mr McNab, the man was obviously trying to pick a fight. If not, why did he apply for a job in an RC school in the first place?

35

Patrick O'Flaherty,

Coatrbridge 22/11/2007 15:33:04

#34

Cowardly? You think it's cowardly to retaliate against the jackboot of tyranny and oppression?

You've proven your quality, sir. I have nothing more to say to you.

36

Lothian Unionist,

22/11/2007 15:43:58

Ok we've all had our say on the IRA past and present and it would appear that we will struggle to agree on that point.

Can we go back to the topic, Patrick (if you're still talking to me) and Urban, do you agree or disagree with the content of Mrs Findlays statement about the signing of IRA songs at Celtic matches?

37

Urban Guerrilla,

22/11/2007 15:49:08

Yes, I agree with her. Personally I don't care for such songs, but this is supposedly a free country and people should be allowed to sing them.

38

George Laird,

Glasgow 22/11/2007 15:59:49

Dear Urban Guerilla

If someone made a song up that all jews should be killed, would you say it is a free country and they should be allowed to sing that?

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

39

Urban Guerrilla,

22/11/2007 16:02:56

Yes, I probably would. It would only be a song. The law of the land would stop them putting their words into practice, and that's what matters.

Stop making a fuss about songs, and address yourself to something important.

BTW is there a song to the effect that all Protestants should be killed? If so, I haven't heard it.

40

FOOTBALLAGAINSTRACISMEUROPE,

22/11/2007 16:32:40

37,

Football fans the world over are not prohibited from singing patriotic airs.There is no proscription on Rangers fans singing GSTQ or Rule Britannia despite the fact that many would find the lyrical content or subject matter disagreeable.

If your assertion is that the only patriotic songs that should be disallowed are those Irish in nature then i find that sad.

41

Lothian Unionist,

22/11/2007 16:41:13

# 41

I'm merely trying to establish if the people on this board accept the comments of Mrs Findlay on Celtic Supporters singing pro IRA songs.

Do you care to answer the question, perhaps a simple yes or no?

For the record I'm a Rangers supporter and totally agree with the eradication of songs regarding terrorist groups and sectarian aspects which appeared in the Billy Boys and the FTP add on.

I also think that Mrs Findlay is severely out of touch with her comments and would like to know the people on this board who support her statement.

42

FOOTBALLAGAINSTRACISMEUROPE,

22/11/2007 16:57:03

42,

Of course Celtic fans have the right to sing of Irish patriots.Why is this a problem for anyone who believes in the concept of equality.As someone whg works in anti-racism how could i be a proponent of banning songs or expression which are motivated by a pride in national identity whilst condoning others.If Celtic fans engaged in PIRA endorsements then i would fully expect the club to sanction those responsible.However there is nothing to stop fans indulging in airs about people deemed as patriots.Additionally there is nothing within any legislation from UEFA,FIFA the SPL or SFA whcih could sanction these songs.

43

Lothian Unionist,

22/11/2007 17:04:05

Ok then I will take you back to a point that I made earlier.

Suposing Rangers supporters sang for example 'Here Lies A Soldier' Which makes clear reference to the UVF would that be ok, given the fact that they were a unit in the First World War at the Somme and many thousands gave their lives for their country. Would that be deemed political?

I also have to question your logic on this matter when the Football Club in question, have remarked upon this matter as not reflective of their club and supporters, that these are a minority element. They want nothing to do with songs that glorify terrorists whether people on here like it or not, thats exactly what they are.

44

FOOTBALLAGAINSTRACISMEUROPE,

22/11/2007 17:13:34

I am bemused at this persitence in labelling Irish patriots as 'terrorists'.Perhaps the criteria is different for you and i.Celtic FC have never asked the fanbase any questions on the issue of songs so how they feel qualified to assert this is beyond me.

Singing songs about those who died in the Great War would imo not be deemed as political but as patriotic.The term 'political' has a modern context in my opinion whereas those who died at the Somme for example were fighting against the threat of German invasion whether they were within the UVF or not.

45

Allan(handofgod137),

22/11/2007 17:23:28

No matter the time or place any supporter of the IRA is scum!

46

Lothian Unionist,

22/11/2007 17:25:28

#45

Thank you sir I now know and appreciate your stance on this situation.

It is one that is widely different to mine and thankfully many others in this country.

The next time a group of Celtic supporters sing songs in the memory of the IRA, perhaps they should hand leaflets out to the countless thousands of the IRA's innocent victims and explain that it's the patriotic IRA their singing about and not the ruthless, indiscriminant killing machine IRA that they think it is.

Why a Scottish club persists in the gloryfying of the Cuddly/Killing IRA is beyond me anyway.

47

FOOTBALLAGAINSTRACISMEUROPE,

22/11/2007 17:31:38

47,

Will your logic then compel you to discourage Rangers fans from airing Rule Britannia or GSTQ.The deaths at the hands of Irish Republicans pale into insignificance when speaking of the murderous greed motivated endeavours through the reign of Empire.

48

FOOTBALLAGAINSTRACISMEUROPE,

22/11/2007 17:34:57

47,

It is perhaps just as confusing why Scottish citizens would sing a song which had for a period a verse which referred to killing Scots.

49

,

22/11/2007 17:43:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1166204, Article id was mapped to record!
50

Lothian Unionist,

22/11/2007 17:45:05

It has become quite apparent to me where your allegiances lie, the thread is about an academic stating that there is nothing wrong with Celtic Fans signing songs that glorify, in my and many others opinion, terrorists. You seem to be very keen to switch the agenda back to those who we are not debating with instead of sticking to the topic.

It also amuses me the hatred poured towards Rule Britannia and God Save The Queen, yes the empire made mistakes but it made far more positives than negatives. Indeed this great country of ours fought to give us all the right of freedom of speech and debate, however sad some of it may be,

In the interest of transparency, I stated where my allegainces lie, would you care to do the same sir? Honestly of course.

51

Lothian Unionist,

22/11/2007 17:47:48

Dawson - Busted in what respect actually? I have stated my allegiances throughout this thread and have nothing to hide. Can you say the same lurking around on other forums looking for something without contributing?

Can you tell me why you are a member or guest of Calton Resources

52

FOOTBALLAGAINSTRACISMEUROPE,

22/11/2007 17:59:32

You are misunderstanding me mate.I would defend the Rangers fans,or indeed any fans right to engage in patriotic expression.Sorry if that was not clear.

I am somewhat confused vis a vis your request for my alleigances.As someone who promotes the concept of equality that would ensure there is no hierachy when it comes to the validity of the aforementioned patriotic expression.

53

Lothian Unionist,

22/11/2007 18:04:30

Fair enough if you believe in standing up for all, I do choose to disagree on this particular subject but then again thats what debates all about and I can accept that.

54

goaaaal,

scotland 22/11/2007 18:45:43

poster 48 you show yourself up with an imbicillic mindset if you think for one minute the actions of terrorists are somehow cancelled out by the supposed ills of the british empire i suggest you get a history lesson like the clown at glasgow uni and make sure its of your own enterprise as a taxpayer i really dislike this anti british public stance you lot take with a massive chip on your shoulders if irelands so great then why not beat it back there and take that clown with you then and only then can i as a taxpayer be comforted in the knowledge that the queens shillings aren't being wasted on people who show a very grave dislike of their adopted country. try doing that in say saudi arabia banging on about your supposed human rights .you people make me sick the way you exploit free speech to suit your twisted veiw on the world and try to justify a cowardly uprising when home rule was already on the cards in ireland whilst the rest laid their lives down for the very free speech you lot regularly abuse.! the rebels were stamping their feet whilst the casualties grew in places like france if you lot are so good on the retrospective maybe this is why you feel the need to hang around in a country you despise to tell us where we went wrong on all our endeavours through the centuries whilst using up our rescources and correcting all those ills that were supposedly imposed at great will on the irish people ??

55

FOOTBALLAGAINSTRACISMEUROPE,

22/11/2007 18:51:50

55,

That is a lot of hot air me old China.I suggest you look at all my posts and then illustrate where i suggest i 'despise' this or indeed any other nation.

By pointing out certain aspects of the Empirical rule does that mean an abhorrence of Britain.Does that mean loathing the actions of Naziism i am predisposed to a hatred of all things German.

My apologies if the proposition of equality is equitable to 'twisted views' in your understanding.

56

goaaaal,

scotland 22/11/2007 19:15:34

your statement re the ira casualty list and its insignificant impact as you call it in comparison to what took place during the colonial goings on is typical republican seige mindset as if it somehow redresses the balance or imbalance as you lot are fond of reminding us the statement says it all .whether murdering an unborn child to a pensioner which is a historical fact then cite british colonialism as the perpetrator for the deeds done by a coward of the ira that this somehow redresses the balance that this thinking justifies your obnoxious statement you really are losing it

57

FOOTBALLAGAINSTRACISMEUROPE,

22/11/2007 19:21:47

I have only commented on the IRA of the War of Independence period.If your assertion is that no songs shall be sang which glorify war or conflict then that is a perfectly valid point but in the interests of equity then surely that should be universal.The IRA of the period and indeed countless other armed groups were a response to the Empire and it's mourderous oppresive regimes.

58

Urban Guerrilla,

22/11/2007 19:41:20

#57 > typical republican siege mindset <

Perhaps people do tend to get a siege mindset if they've been oppressed for hundreds of years?

59

beeree,

22/11/2007 19:42:14

#33 “You were ignored because your characterisation of the IRA as fascist is simply ludicrous.”

Commentators have found it very hard to define fascism so I am glad that you are able to. I referred to IRA/Sinn Fein so that there was no dubiety that they were two facets of the same creature. My definition is of a centralised(army council) political party, who believed in a corporate state (This certainly applies to IRA/Sinn Fein especially in South Armagh with their strong belief in controlling free enterprise – drugs, smuggling, (Northern)bank withdrawals).
A party who can brook no alternative opinion.( Have a word with SDLP activists on this one or perhaps the aforementioned Quinns & McCartneys.) I repeat “When has Sinn Fein/IRA allowed freedom of speech, freedom of worship, freedom of association?”

When has IRA/Sinn Fein ever, ever’ done anything for Trade Unions or workers?

To my mind FASCIST.

However some of your other statements are confusing you condemn the Irish & Scots for being British . You then condemn some British ie Scots & Irish for singing patriotic songs about Britain. Why? They sing of their country and are proud of its achievements. If you condemn the British Empire out of hand you condemn those from Ireland & Scotland who contributed to its success.

“Was the Irish struggle against foreign occupation that resulted in the establishment of a free nation legitimate?”
“I'd like to see an acceptance that the armed resistance in Ireland that lead to independence was justifiable as the prerequisite
Reverse those questions substitute Ulster for Irish and do you still feel the same way?

60

FOOTBALLAGAINSTRACISMEUROPE,

22/11/2007 19:51:55

60,

When have SF ever denied the things you allude to.This seems to be your assertion so i would be happy to peruse any evidence.

61

goaaaal,

scotland 22/11/2007 20:04:22

to urban guerrilla this oppression you highlight must have been of epic proportions considering the island of ireland was invaded clolonised many times previously

62

Londonderry Bear,

Northern Ireland 22/11/2007 20:25:14

I find most of the songs sung by Celtic fans greatly offensive, and beleive in todays current climate that this woman's job in such a profession as University lucturer should be under scrutiny!
Being from Ulster I have had family member's and friends killed by such murdering scum! I have a number of Celtic supporting friends, and they are equally appalled at this recent outburst by a person, who they are embarrassed to see in the ranks of their support!

63

FOOTBALLAGAINSTRACISMEUROPE,

22/11/2007 20:53:36

63,

Again it is important to stress that her comments were centred on Irish patriots from almost a century ago who are revered by many within Ireland.Sadly there is an inevitability that patriotic airs will allude tp past conflict and i am sorry to hear of your loss.I would concur that songs endorsing the recent war in the Six Counties have no place within stadia.

Regarding the position of Miss Findlay her job will not be under any threat i would imagine.There will be many who see the war in Iraq as illegal and immoral and will cite the British as being complicit in the deaths of thousands of Iraqi civilians.Can they place demands that those who endorse the conflict be removed.

64

Londonderry Bear,

Northern Ireland 22/11/2007 21:09:12

It is not her beliefs on the war in Iraq, it is her Ideas on the IRA. Such bile to be spouted freely by a so called 'fans representitive' in a culture of mutual inclusion which exists in Scotland, should not have such a high profile job in one of Scotland's leading universities. It casts a poor light over the whole institution!

65

beeree,

22/11/2007 21:46:57

#61 "When have SF ever denied the things you allude to.This seems to be your assertion so i would be happy to peruse any evidence."

You're confusing me - so you agree with me about IRA/Sinn Fein?

"Again it is important to stress that her comments were centred on Irish patriots from almost a century ago who are revered by many within Ireland."

They were centred on TODAYS events at Celtic Park and the use IRA/Sinn Fein make of them in trying to legitimise their "struggle".

If Ms Findlay's job is not under threat it should certainly be under scrutiny. Is their a role in academia for fascists and their running dogs? I think you know the answer to that.

66

I-Mac,

22/11/2007 21:50:43

"Again it is important to stress that her comments were centred on Irish patriots from almost a century ago" (64)

It is important to clarify that she claimed "many of" the songs concerned were about that period (but not all).

67

Urban Guerrilla,

23/11/2007 10:48:18

#62. Well, it lasted for about 800 years and some would even say it was still continuing in the north-eastern part of the island, so I'd have thought that was quite a long time.

68

Urban Guerrilla,

23/11/2007 10:50:25

#65. > in a culture of mutual inclusion which exists in Scotland <

Is it truly inclusive when a man can be cautioned by the police for making the sign of the cross?

69

Londonderry Bear,

Ulster 23/11/2007 12:58:36

When did this happen Urban Guerrilla? It certainly wasn't at Ibrox when Boruc was trying to incite the Rangers support.

70

,

23/11/2007 14:07:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1168116, Article id was mapped to record!
71

Lothian Unionist,

23/11/2007 17:19:49

For those who continue to back this lunatics views, read a few comments from Mr Parry of Chesire.

Bomb Victims Dad Hits Out

The father of a boy killed in an IRA bombing last night branded Findlay's remarks "downright idiotic".

Colin Parry's 12-year-old son Tim was killed by an IRA attack in Warrington, Chesire, in 1993.

He said: "Taking a soft line, I'd say Findlay's comments foolish in the extreme. Taking a hard line, I would say they're downright idiotic.

"I cant airbrush the death of my son out of my life. It is a legacy I live with everyday.

"It's beyond belief to me that an academic would espouse such views."


But dont you worry sir were singing about the cuddly/freedom fighters that never harmed anybody before the troubles.

As my late grandfather used to say, away and bile yer heid!

72

goaaaal.....,

scotland 23/11/2007 19:00:32

poster 68 again you post complete tosh in relation to 800 years i would say there are probably as many indians have settled in great britain and very few moan about injustices the way those of an irish ancestry do as for your earlier assertion of the rebels as heroes they were nothing more than a bunch of backstabbers wonder where they inherited that from!!

73

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 13/03/2008 15:54:40
#9 lothian......... The uvf murdered hundreds of Catholics between the years 1969 and 2000. Just because they were Catholic,and for no other reason!
74

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 13/03/2008 15:57:04
I have no problem with Celtic supporters singing songs in praise of Ireland's freedom fighters.
75

,

23/12/2008 14:50:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
76

6foot4,

04/04/2009 17:11:39
FACT: The Rangers FC play anthems before each home match feting the worst terrorists ever to set foot in Ireland.

Look again at what Dr Jeanette Findlay actually said: it was right, fair, decent, and proper.

I was bemused to hear Nicky Campbell ask her for a view re IRA actions. Really, she should have told hiim to ask his father - as he was involved in the IRA and participated in active duty during the 1950s.


 

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