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D-Day in Glasgow East – and every vote counts for big two



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Published Date: 24 July 2008
THE battle for Glasgow East looked like going down to the wire last night, with the SNP claiming the race was "neck and neck" and Downing Street predicting a Labour victory by about 1,000 votes.
Alex Salmond, the First Minister, maintained the "ground was shaking and shuddering" as a political earthquake approached, but sources close to Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, were quietly confident.

On the ground, Margaret Curran, the Labour candidate, took to a soapbox outside a bingo hall in the East End and – accompanied by a piper – rallied her supporters to secure every last vote.

A straw poll by The Scotsman provided further evidence that the result was on a knife-edge, with talk of a complex mix of general voter apathy, long-term Labour loyalty, and disgruntlement over 11 years of New Labour and the rise in the cost of living.

This is despite the seat being – at least on paper – Labour's third safest in Scotland, after it won a 13,507 majority at the 2005 general election.

Voters were being inundated yesterday with personal letters from both Labour and the SNP. Ms Curran portrayed her SNP rival, John Mason, as a "hardline" Nationalist, while the SNP emphasised the links between Mr Brown and Margaret Thatcher, whom the Prime Minister had to tea at Downing Street last year.

Labour said it planned to knock on 1,000 doors and claimed to have 200 activists on the ground – a number it hoped to double to 400 for polling today.

Ms Curran, a Labour MSP for nine years, has attempted to fight the by-election on her own record and divert attention from Labour's unpopularity at Westminster.

She told applauding supporters yesterday: "A number of weeks ago, I promised that the Labour fightback was about to start. The Labour fightback is under way, and we are on our way.

"My message to every voter in the East End is this: use your vote to elect a fighter who will stand up for you. I promise that if I am elected, that work will start on Friday morning."

She sought to puncture the hyperbole of Mr Salmond, saying: "I think a lot of people would thank me if I got to wipe the smile off his face somewhat."

As the final day of campaigning continued, sources close to the Prime Minister told The Scotsman that he was "completely relaxed" about the by-election result.

Insiders are predicting a repeat of the 2004 by-election in Hamilton South, where Labour's majority was slashed from nearly 16,000 to 556, as well as the contest in Falkirk West in 2000 where Labour's lead was cut from 13,783 to 705.

One source said: "The feeling we get from people on the ground is that we will be looking at a similar result. It is the middle of the holiday, and there are people who are p***** off about fuel and the cost of living, but we are relaxed about the outcome and expect to win. People are not voting for a government at a general election."

The SNP held its final media call yesterday afternoon, but the mood was noticeably less confident than during a visit to the Fort shopping centre the previous day.

However, Mr Salmond told reporters that the race was "neck and neck". He said an SNP victory would be "extraordinary" in a seat that, on paper, was listed as safer than Mr Brown's parliamentary constituency of Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath. He said: "I think there are very few Labour MPs in Scotland who are sleeping soundly these days."

Mr Salmond maintained the poll would be a "contrast between two governments" and allowed a focus on the "failures of the London Labour government over an 11-year period and the intense disappointment in the performance of Gordon Brown's administration".

He added: "In terms of the political earthquake, which I have detected through the campaign, let me say the ground is shaking and shuddering. I think the earthquake is coming and will arrive on schedule tomorrow. I think this is the epicentre."

Voters opt for apathy as parties 'bombard' constituency

MARGARET Curran, the Labour candidate, stood outside the Mecca Bingo Hall in the heart of the East End yesterday to deliver her "one last push" rallying cry to her loyal team.

But as the final hours of the campaign ticked away, it was difficult to see if the work of any of the parties had made a difference to the regulars.

As they wandered in for the afternoon bingo session, there were those who had taken the SNP's message to heart. One woman admitted: "The SNP has swayed me. I've been a life-long Labour supporter, but this time I'll be switching."

Others, like Hugh Sinclair, a 22-year-old ex-soldier, were already sold on the SNP message: "This is going to be the first time I've voted. I want independence for Scotland, that's the main factor in deciding how I'll vote."

However, of those spoken to, support for the SNP was less pronounced than the engrained support for Labour.

One woman leaving the hall said: "I have been a traditional Labour supporter, and I was not going to vote this time round. But having seen the way the SNP have gone about it, I will be voting tomorrow and so will my friends – there's too much at risk."

Elizabeth Sanders was of similar mind: "I have always voted Labour. I have grandchildren and I have to think about the future I want for them."

One man was more blunt: "The SNP's policies are garbage. They won't do anything here. People will just keep voting Labour."

Above all, though, apathy ruled.

As one Mecca staff member said: "It's been really intense here, we've been bombarded. But it doesn't interest me and I'm still not going to vote.

"It's been the same with the people coming in to play. You speak to them and they're just not interested."

The full article contains 1010 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Mogwai Fear Santa,

24/07/2008 00:13:15
Curran spent 9 years as MSP, but when Newsnight's Michael Crick asked if she'd ever visited her fellow Labour MP's constituency office at all, she refused to answer. Standing up for the East End, indeed.

Don't give this woman a second chance.
2

AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 00:13:51
John Mason is of course a “hardline” nationalist. But it goes further than that.

He has said that his only reason for even being in politics in to break up Britain.

Here’s the exact quote: “I'm in politics for one reason and that is to break up the UK and so any suggestion of a strengthening of a link between Scotland and England is what I'm opposed to.”

His three main opponents are rightly appalled by this narrow–minded focus.

Ian Robertson said: “Local people want a local MP, who will focus on local issues. They do not want another career politician who is more interested in advancing the agenda of people whose "one reason" for being in politics is to break up Britain.”

Davena Rankin said: “He is obsessed. I’m more interested in Glasgow East.”

Margaret Curran said: “My opponent Councillor Mason says he’s in politics for one reason only: to break up the United Kingdom. I’m in politics for a fundamentally different reason: to fight poverty and stand up for the people of the East End.”

So if the people of Glasgow East imagine that this “colourless man in the shadows, often sporting a bitter expression” genuinely cares about all the issues his contrived rhetoric touches, they should think again. He’s a single issue politician – and that issue certainly isn’t to serve his constituents.

Any of the other three candidates would do a better job for the East End.
3

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 24/07/2008 00:15:04
I wonder if the Scotsman's called this one as accurately as it did Dunfermline and West Fife...

9 Feb 2006:
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/Labour-set-to-scrape-byelection.2749375.jp

10 Feb 2006:
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Lib-Dems-storm-to-election.2749663.jp
4

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 24/07/2008 00:17:34
#2 YAWN. The SNP are committed to giving Scotland's people the right to decide whether they want independence or not in a free democratic vote. The Unionist parties refuse to even CONSIDER the subject (except Labour who don't have the faintest idea what their position is from one day to the next) and stick like glue to their UNION IS EVERYTHING position. So who are the "hardliners" here?
5

Chris.J,

Edinburgh 24/07/2008 00:17:54
#1, yup - Newsnight tonight was indeed interesting - I have to question why they didn't run the story earlier in the campaign? Why this rag (amongst others) refuses to acknowledge the story or analyse the allegations? Why Curran refuses to answer any legitimate questions?

6

democrate,

central Scotland 24/07/2008 00:18:29
AM2 - There are none so blind as the likes of you. Breaking up the UK and concentrating on Scotland's needs will pay dividends on a personal and societal level. But you just cannot see it, can you? More is the pity.
7

Vivas,

Edinburgh 24/07/2008 00:19:32
Elizabeth Sanders was of similar mind: "I have always voted Labour. I have grandchildren and I have to think about the future I want for them."

Yup thats right Elizabeth. You think about their future in this millenium. Forgotten and ignored by everyone, on the dole and dead by the time they get into their sixties.

I don't blame Elizabeth. I do blame the liars, the no-users, the hypocrites, the sloths, the brainless, the traitors, the opportunists, the freeloaders, the money-grabbers, the scum ... who deceive people like Margaret to this day. More simply known as the Scottish Labour Party.
8

SlyFifer,

California 24/07/2008 00:20:24
I wish the SNP all the best of luck and hope they win today's election. Even if they loose and decimate Labors majority they will have secured a victory.
9

Chris.J,

Edinburgh 24/07/2008 00:27:39
#7 Exactly... the one thing that has really annoyed me about the Labour campaign is their attempts to turn criticism of their track record over 50 years of control into criticism of Glasgow East: Sorry, but the parasites in the Labour movement who have taken this constituency for granted really do have something to answer for. And that is not a reflection on the people of Glasgow East or the area.
10

Deeside,

Scotland 24/07/2008 00:34:51
TRADERS ARE URGING VOTERS TO SAY ‘NO’ TO LABOUR IN GLASGOW EAST AFTER DODGY LAND DEAL UNCOVERED

On the eve of the Glasgow East by election, traders of Paddy’s Market in the city have expressed outrage as a Freedom of Information Act request has uncovered firm evidence that leading Labour councillors have misled the council and the public over a lucrative land deal. Traders, most of who live in the Glasgow East constituency are urging voters not to back Labour in tomorrow’s by election.

Councillor George Ryan who was originally tipped be Labour’s candidate in the Glasgow East by election until he failed to turn up for the selection meeting earlier this month, was the councillor responsible for presenting a factually incorrect and misleading report regarding the land deal which would see the closure of Glasgow’s 150 year old Paddy’s Market.

Council minutes as well as emails show that claims by Councillor Ryan in his report that the landowners would be prepared to give the council a much reduced rate, have been proved to be incorrect. Documents also reveal that leading Labour Councillors were also fully aware of the inaccuracies when the report was presented to Council but failed to have the information corrected.

The report, which Councillor Ryan presented to council, recommended that the council give the go ahead for negotiations commence with the landowners which would see the council to take over the prime development land. However, the documents revealed under FOI show that a number of Labour councillors and officials were already well on the way to closing a deal without any authority to do so.

One trader said:

“I have been a Labour voter all of my life but in view of the underhanded and dishonest way in which Labour have attempted to pull the wool over everyone’s eyes; I won’t ever be voting Labour again. If they can do this sort of thing to everyday people, the very people they claim to represent, then Labour cannot be trusted at any level of
11

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 00:35:56
2
AM2
There is a clue in the name of the party John Mason supports.
The. Scottish. Nationalist. Party.

Is there a softline?
12

AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 00:36:08
#7 Vivas

Ah, there’s that charming word again: “traitors”.

On the SNP’s website, people who agree with me that Scotland’s best interests are served within the United Kingdom are described as “traitors”, “enemies of Scotland” and only “claiming to be Scottish”.

If the people of Glasgow East were aware of this kind of repugnant dogma, I doubt that the SNP would pick up very many votes at all.
13

Darien,

Panama 24/07/2008 00:37:25
'Britain' is finished AM2. You know it, we know it, even Sponge Bob knows it. Let's hope the good folks of Glasgow East know it too. Scotland has a bright future and it only needs a few more of her people to believe a wee bit more in themselves - and ignore your Unionist/British Nationalist 'we cannae dae it' rants.
14

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 24/07/2008 00:38:39
#13 "Repugnant dogma", from the man who's called John Mason a "hardliner" for wanting to give the people of Scotland a voice on their future...
15

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 24/07/2008 00:39:21
2 AM2

Ah, selective quotes, negativity and character-assassination.

That about sums up your post.

How about debating the real issues on the minds of ordinary folk in Glasgow East, Scotland, or even the UK as a whole? That didn't even cross your mind.

No, on polling day you wanted to be number one post on the headline story with a spineless party-political broadcast.

Didn't quite make number 1. Wonder if Margaret will?
16

gus1940,

Edinburgh 24/07/2008 00:39:56
Very interesting and revealing program earlier tonight on Scotland's Oil.

Why was it tucked away on BBC4 with no advance publicity?
17

,

24/07/2008 00:40:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 00:41:07
#15 "Rev" S Campbell

Exactly what kind of "reverend" are you? I didn't say that.

#14 Darien

More misrepresentation. It's not a case of "cannae". It's more "shouldnae".

Goodnight. I'll leave you to it.
19

Chris.J,

Edinburgh 24/07/2008 00:43:55
#13 I think most rational people would agree that the Labour Party has indeed betrayed the people of Glasgow East...

Earlier on you were also griping that the SNP website claimed that to want independence was "normal" - and by some bizarre extrapolation you interpreted that as implying that the SNP thought everyone else is "abnormal". Sorry, but no - believing in independence is as normal as believing in the union - nothing more sinister than that. And why should we not be entitled to our views? Why should we brow-beaten by increasingly esoteric misrepresentations such as your "abnormal" delusions...

Quit the word games - and get to grips with the real issues.
20

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 00:46:48
13
And the people of Glasgow East are incapable of using the internet AM2?
Your Tory slip is showing...
21

,

24/07/2008 00:51:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

Anne, London,

24/07/2008 00:53:30
I was sorry to read about the lady who was thinking about her grandchildren and the life that they might have - while intending to vote labour.

Look around you. Lots of good people, but hope, aspiration to have a job and look after your own family? Well, labour have had their 50 years - why not try something new?
23

Mogwai Fear Santa,

24/07/2008 00:54:31
#13 AMDeux "If the people of Glasgow East were aware of this kind of repugnant dogma, I doubt that the SNP would pick up very many votes at all."

Well get yourself up to the printers first thing tomorrow man. How many leaflets will £100 get you? 5000? Put your money where your Tory shill mouth is and make the people of Glasgow Easy aware. So we can see how many votes the SNP pick up after they've had the AM2 Fair Fortnight Experience.

My guess is: a landslide.
24

,

24/07/2008 00:54:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
25

ThomasP,

24/07/2008 00:55:23
#2

Nationalists want to break up Britain?

Now what idiot would really be unaware of what the SNP represent?

26

,

24/07/2008 01:01:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
27

,

24/07/2008 01:02:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
28

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 01:02:47
33
Well well, you got me there.

Do you have a nice warm feeling in your nether regions?
29

FrancesP,

24/07/2008 01:04:59
Is Margaret Curran actually capable of answering a straight question? She was asked last week if she supported a ban on airguns - no coherent answer. She was asked last night if she had raised concerns about Brown's abolition of the 10p tax band - no coherent answer. Tonight on Newsnight, Michael Crick asked her at least a dozen times if she had ever visited David Marshall's constituency office in nine years as an MSP - instead of answering, she goes off into a bizarre speech (what a certain American would call a squawk) about what a squeaky-clean MP she will be. Fascinating, Ms Curran, very laudable I'm sure, but ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE QUESTION YOU WERE ASKED. Does she think people are fools?

More to the point, if the truthful answer is that she's never been to Marshall's constituency office, does she seriously think owning up that fact would somehow be worse for her than the massive suspicions she's raised by so blatantly avoiding a perfectly legitimate question?
30

,

24/07/2008 01:11:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
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31

Willie Macleod,

Wick 24/07/2008 01:19:17
#39 Alex Armstrong So David Banks can have his self expression.
And close down threads so no one else can comment.

Individual humanity no just a sad individual.
32

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 01:19:21
I was presuming "Effing" Thankyou for your interest.
33

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 01:22:34
46
So it is.

So just how much of an (_!_) are you?
34

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 01:26:07
Ahh. I see just how much.

Not make it to a thousand then?
35

Krissie,

Wales, UK 24/07/2008 01:28:17
The subheading "Voters opt for apathy as parties 'bombard' constituency"...

Surely it more likely to be that people are willfully choosing not to participate owing to the bombardment being an indication of ulterior motive (a greater issue - westminister based) and are thus being used than because they simply can't be bothered? Apathy is a poor and rather misleading word to use. Voters can't be made apathetic by "bombardment"... they can however become aggrieved and choose not to vote as a result.
36

democracy,

Scottish Borders 24/07/2008 01:53:27
#65 Alex Armstrong, Curran can only be shown up as the lying piece of NEW Labour, self serving garbage, that she is, SIMPLE!!!!
37

,

24/07/2008 01:58:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

frank mcbride,

lusitania 24/07/2008 01:59:12
I predicted an SNP win by 5%.

Considering this thread, I now predict an SNP loss by 85%.

Is there nothing Unionists will do to keep power?
39

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 02:18:21
86
I was wondering.

Err... did they get any money;-)
40

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 24/07/2008 04:13:53
What is clear is that the result will be a narrow win for either the SNP or Labour.

Which-ever way it goes it will be apparent to anyone with a degree of free thought that it is a great result for the SNP and funeral march stuff for Labour, especially Brown.

If Labour narrowly win watch the Labour spin machine (internal and external media outlets - can you tell the difference?) go into overdrive 'SNP crushed', 'vote of confidence for Brown' etc etc. These disengenious reports will ultimately try to wallpaper over the fact that a massive majority has been decimated. Salmond's earthquake will be real if not fully realised.

If the SNP win the Labour party will become utterly, utterly desperate in their negativity and criticism of the SNP. The expose in the Sunday Times revealed the utter contempt Labour have for their fellow Scots who a different vision for their country. Watch for the bile to flow as every single labour MP and MSP realises that they have been rumbled and that the end is nigh.

What a stinking cest-pit of corruption, spin, lies, reverse spin, backflips, double reverse spin, scaremongering, backflip double reverse spin Labour live in.

Democracy and progress itself are the primary victims of the Labour party. How far they have come.

GET RID OF THEM

41

Traquir , Alba,

24/07/2008 06:10:15
91 Castaway

One more quote from Winnie Ewing which as appropriate
today as it was 40 years ago :

"'If this can happen in Hamilton, it can happen anywhere.' And in the words of Oliver Brown 'A shiver ran along the Scottish Labour benches looking for a spine to run up.''"

see - tinyurl.com/6s644q
42

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 24/07/2008 06:16:42
Thanks for the link Castaway and Traquir - you beat me to it!:-

If you want action in Scottish politics vote SNP. Nothing has changed in 40 years - Winnie was the catalyst for devolution, May 2007 was the catalyst for new conversations on Sctland's future wether of the SNP inclusive variety or the closed shop of the Calman Commission.

Of course if any Labour supporters would like to argue the contrary maybe they could expand on the 'successes' of the 'FEEBLE FIFTY'

I though not.
43

Traquir , Alba,

24/07/2008 06:22:06
I am delighted that the SNP
has timed to perfection the final
image they want the Glasgow East Voter to have in their
head prior to going to polls - a postcard
from Broon and his best Pal Maggie

see - http://tinyurl.com/62qgox

I can just picture it now the welling up
of hatred and absolute betrayal in even
the most staunch Labour supporters.

Never mind the little £140 silverware gift given
to Thatcher, Brown has done something much
more treacherous in sanctioning a State Funeral
for Thatcher rather than vetoing it.

see - tinyurl.com/5rljdt

So how much is Brown's other gift to his
soul mate - well likely at least £4 million
of which Scotland's share is ~£340,000 !!!
This is absolutely nauseating and will
make many Scots sick to the stomach.

see - tinyurl.com/6gtwmy

So Scotland has a reign of Thatcher imposed on
her and she savages the country resulting in
a depth of hatred where her party ends up with 0 MPs.
Now we have to pay to bury her - does not get
much sicker than that.
44

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 24/07/2008 06:38:24
#94 ‘Where there is discord, may we bring harmony. Where there is error, may we bring truth. Where there is doubt, may we bring faith. And where there is despair, may we bring hope’ …
45

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 24/07/2008 07:08:14
I wish every voter in Glasgow East could read your post at 94 Traquir.

Alternatively they could be invited to lie on the ground, spread their legs widely, hand Gordon Brown a pair of bovver boots, watch him pace 50 meters down the road, put the boots on and then sprint up to where they are lying and boot them in tadgers full force.

Then they can hobble down to the brew office to find out they aren't getting it anymore.

Some bl00dly thanks from the Labour party for thgose that have backed them (without question) for 50 years.

Shameful stuff.
46

izzie,

dundee 24/07/2008 07:08:52
Just watched Newsnight probe into David Marshall expenses Margaret Curran was unnerved refusing to answer whether she had ever been to the MP's constituancy office how have Labour managed to keep this issue from being discusses? I find it scary.
47

donald,

glasgow 24/07/2008 07:10:43
The headline says "Big Two", but the caption only shows a photie of one person dressed as a Morris Dancer. Guess the sight of a piper with Liebour was too much even for the Northbritishperson to swallow.
48

Andy Stewart,

Kirkaldy 24/07/2008 07:12:23
Interesting poll from political betting.com
They are generally correct

Who do you think will win tomorrow's Glasgow East by election?

Selection Votes
Labour 49% 528
SNP 49% 533
Conservatives 2% 19
Lib Dems 1% 8

1,088 votes total
49

Jimmy the Pie,

24/07/2008 07:18:55
You were the only candidate to show dignity and honour.

You deserve to represent the people of Glasgow East.

You won't steal from them like the last MP Marshall.

You won't ignore them.

ALL THE BEST TODAY,

JOHN MASON, SNP Candidate, Glasgow East.
50

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 24/07/2008 07:23:22
#100

As a tory AM2 should be getting stuck into the labour party rather than the SNP - history will show that the conduct of the labour party in the last 18 months has doen more to split his precious union than any SNP strategy.

Is AM2 blinded by hate?
51

NemarketNDPer,

Taipei, Taiwan 24/07/2008 07:23:40
For reality therapy Curran, Brown, & Labour need a good kick in the pants. Curran, like Brown, is an outspoken supporter of the war for big oil in Iraq - so hold your noses and vote SNP! And remember Glasgow hasn't sold out the Party, rather Labour has sold out the people.
52

carrottop,

Dumfries 24/07/2008 07:31:42
The spitting image characters that support Labour have all been on the telly with the usual intellectual comments such as 'my mum and dad both voted Labour', 'a've always voted for them', 'they are the party that I feel most at home with' etc.
Surely in these days of rapidly advancing high technology a cyber brain to be rapidly fitted to each of these characters is not out of the question.
53

Owain Glyndwr,

Caerdydd 24/07/2008 07:40:29
Every success to the SNP today.

Scotland and Wales are showing that shower at Westminster how to run a government properly.

Every vote for the SNP and Plaid Cymru is a vote for a new future and a nail in the coffin of the discredited Westminster model.

Pob Llwyddiant i'r SNP
54

Geoff,

sa 24/07/2008 08:00:44
Colonel Blimp and Conan the Librarian-good morning to you two comedians! Whoever wins in Glasgow East today lets hope the locals get somebody who doesnt lose interest in them the following day after the election! Everything is relative-The Mercury-our morning Durban newspaper reports inter alia that the head of the ANC youth league says Jacob Zuma will be President of SA even if he goes to prison and wears an orange overall-this with the usual murders, strikes and other marxist rhetoric. You think YOU guys have got troubles. We would love to have Gordon Brown,Alex salmond,Nick Clegg-in fact any one of them would do. Labour dont deserve this one but I would probably vote for them today as a bigger prize is at stake!!
Have a happy day!
PS 82 Blimp-to the tune of the Protestant Boys? I can hear it!
55

Chris W,

24/07/2008 08:12:44
To all those people in Glasgow East who say they are not interested: "Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you." - Pericles (430 B.C.)
Domestic fuel tax, petrol tax, food prices, higher VED, ID cards ... wake up people. If you don't want to live in a democracy why don't you emigrate to North Korea?
56

Phil C,

24/07/2008 08:15:39
Whatever happens today, nobody on the SNP side should be disheartened. The media have built this pokey wee by-election into something it isn't.

It's highly inlikely that Labour will lose today's election. This is a cast-iron Labour seat. If Labour win then it means nothing. If the SNP get within 5,000 votes, it will be a major triumph. There are probably far too many dimwits in Glasgow East to cause an upset-people who think through their narrow-minded backsides and don't give have the courage to contemplate a better and brighter future for Scotland. These people are blinded by history and the cowardly fear bred by their unionist representatives. They refuse to look forward and see the better world that so many in the SNP can see.

This stereotype of a gutless Scottish voter still seems to be in the (diminishing) majority throughout Scotland so the chances of a breakthrough here are about zilch. The gentle persuasion must continue without a blip, whatever the result to today's irrelevant fiasco to replace yet another shamed, dodgy, self-seeking Labour politician.
57

tartan army 2222,

24/07/2008 08:17:36
AM2 is of course a “hardline” nationalist (a Brit-Nat).

His only reason for even being on these sites to keep Britain.

His fellow posters are rightly appalled by this narrow–minded focus.

He’s a single issue poster – and he certainly doesn't serve the cause of the union because he turns people away with his incessant linking and failure to answer questions.

Keep it up AM2.
58

An Beal Bacht,

24/07/2008 08:21:57
Whoa there - was that a tremor - is the ground shifting?
59

tog,

Edinburgh 24/07/2008 08:24:59
If the SNP lose today it will be because they picked the wrong candidate. Mr Mason would have been okay for a general election but as a candidate for a high profile by election he was the wrong choice. Alex Salmond's constant presence in the constituency has diminished him further. Curran has been a predictably strong candidate and I am sure the Conservative and Lib Dem candidates will end up in one of the two Parliaments. On Friday though it will be back to the council for Mr Mason your fifteen minutes of fame are over.
60

The Honest Lad,

Musselburgh 24/07/2008 08:27:51
Whatever way you vote the articles comments about voters apathy is disapointing and says it all about politics. However in my opinion you should always cast your vote in a democratic society considering that people are dying accross the globe for the right to vote.
61

An Beal Bacht,

24/07/2008 08:32:49
Mason is exactly the kind of candidate that will resonate with the voters of GE. Aye - that rumbling you feel is the seismic shift that will bury noo-labour.
62

tartan army 2222,

24/07/2008 08:38:21
I've been out canvassing recently and the feeling was certainly pro-SNP (but not overly so). I'm confident (especially if the rumour about the SNP winning the postals is true).

Just think back to recent Scottish by-elections. There was no real thought that Labour would lose and they lost one and were run very close on two. This time they're talking about a Labour defeat. Fingers crossed.
63

Montford's Jaicket,

Hanging around 24/07/2008 08:42:07
Whatever happens today, the SNP can take great heart from the result. They are fighting in a seat with almost 2/3 voting Labour last time (who bothered to turn out). Here’s my take on the possible results:

Result 1 – Labour win with a large majority (over 5,000) – Labour will say the Fair Fortnight had an effect on their vote and they ought to have had 12-15,000. SNP will say they have given Labour a bloody nose in a very safe seat.

Result 2 – Labour win with a small majority - they will say it is a mid-term protest vote and pretty much irrelevant. SNP will state that “no Scottish Westminster seat is now unwinnable by us”

Result 3 – SNP win with narrow majority – Labour response as per 2 above but with a “we’ll win it back at the next General Election”. SNP will claim “This is now a safe SNP seat – we’ll do our best to hold it for the next 50 years” (or some such term)

Result 4 – SNP win with large (5,000 plus) majority – Labour will claim mixture of factors from 1 and 2 and try to carry on from there. SNP will claim that the time for independence is now closer than it ever was before and that 2010 will be a critical year for Scotland in terms of both a General Election and a referendum (which it wil be).

I think there will be a similar turnout to last time (under 50%) and that Labour will hold with a much decreased majority – scenario 2 – but will have taken such a pounding that they will have to do something serious about Glasgow East before the GE in 2009/10… which might just be too short a timescale for action.

Personally, I think it is a disgrace that Glasgow East has suffered under a Labour MP for so long and is so run down. Regeneration of the area is essential for the well-being of the people. The former MP’s apparent mis-handling of his expenses is also a disgrace. Many of those in Westminster are Honourable Members in name only, it seems!
64

Phil C,

24/07/2008 08:43:16
#113 tog

Nonsense. If the SNP lose today it will be because this is a gold-plated, cast-iron Labour seat! The Labour media want something to crow about, so they built up this circus. Salmond has bravely entered the lion's den. I hope he gets some reward.

Certainly for Labour to win any election in Scotland at the moment should be a huge slur on the voters, because unfortunately the rest of the country gets tainted by association.

Based on competance, performance, honesty, and any other relevant measure, Labour should get zero votes! Better even the Tories and Liberals if they want unionist representation. Can't do that though, too closed-minded.

If Labour win today, the Glasgow East voters should be ashamed of themselves. The fact they won't be speaks for itself.

65

An Beal Bacht,

24/07/2008 08:50:04
As an SNP supporter can I say that I hope the SSP do well. Let's not lose our socialist roots. A vote for the guid Curran is a vote for Scotland's future. Eye on the prize !
66

Jung,

24/07/2008 08:55:57
EVERY vote cast today for the Labour Party condones the "retiring" MPs financial sleaze.
Every vote cast today for the Labour Party condones its killing sprees in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Every vote cast today for the Labour Party condones its wilful attack on the poorest and most vulnerable in our society.

Every vote cast today for the Labour Party condones the dodgy dealings of Wendy Alexander.

Every vote cast today for the Labour Party condones its approval for the "snouts in the trough" policy of its MPs.
67

eric,

24/07/2008 09:04:38
Remember voters >LABOUR tried to block green issues yesterday!
68

AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 09:07:16
#119 An Beal Bacht

If you have “socialist roots” why are you a nationalist?

I would remind you of the words of the SNP's Jim Mather, who said that “any notion that an independent Scotland would be a left-wing country is delusional nonsense”.
69

AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 09:17:11
#82 Col Blimp

That Flanders and Swann song isn't called "The English". Never has been. It's called "A Song of Patriotic Prejudice".

That puts a slightly different slant on it, doesn't it?

Did you change the title in order to misrepresent its intent, or did you take it from an unreliable source?

Incidentally, Donald Swann was born in Wales.
70

bluehead,

edinburgh 24/07/2008 09:19:45
even if labour won they would still lose,it s the majority that is the name of the game,!!!!!
71

Alastair the First,

24/07/2008 09:20:56
12: It's not the Scottish Nationalist Party, it's the Scottish National Party. Meaning as in the National Party of Scotland.
72

Jung,

24/07/2008 09:21:44
#119

AM2 is clearly trying to ensnare you by getting you to link nationalism and socialism.
Nationalism linked with socialism actually says more about AM2's take on life.
73

Phil C,

24/07/2008 09:23:34
#122

The SNP is a mix of many ideals with one common cause- the renewal of the birthright of every citizen to live in their own country and decide their own future. If you're the old Irish AM2, even you could even fit in and feel comfortable if you would take that daft bowler hat off!

Sometimes the old fashioned Socialist element of the SNP have too much to say for themselves and think they hold the moral high ground for some reason. I prefer to see the SNP as a socialist (Not SSP or Labour) liberal (not Liberal) mix with conservative (not Tory) tendencies, with open-minded fairness and progress as guiding lights (not self seeking political gratification).
74

AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 09:25:49
#111 tartan army 2222

Twisting my words about John Mason in an attempt to apply them to me may make you feel clever, but the words simply don’t fit.

In particular, your description of me as a “Brit-Nat” is utterly misguided.

For the record, I reject nationalism in all its forms. It’s a philosophy at whose heart, in varying degrees, is a them-and-us, “my country above all others” philosophy which, although not inherently xenophobic or racist, often chimes with people who hold such views.

By contrast, the United Kingdom represents a voluntary sharing of sovereignty between its four constituent countries. Personally, I like the whole nature of that arrangement. I consider the voluntary relinquishment of autonomy to create a nation that by its very nature is multi-ethnic and multi-cultural to be truly inspirational.

The same applies, to a lesser extent due to its supra-state structure, to the European Union.

Unionists are proud to be both British and Scottish, English, Welsh or N.Irish. We see no contradiction in being both, or even some nuanced combination of more than two of those.

Speaking personally, I like my multi-faceted identity. Seeing the saltire, union flag and indeed the EU stars fluttering side-by-side is a potent symbol of the “anti-nationalism” inherent in the union ideal.
75

AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 09:27:13
#126 Jung

Eh? He described himself as having “socialist roots”.
76

AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 09:31:06
#103 Dougie Douglas

You ask: "Is AM2 blinded by hate?"

That's truly bizarre question. I am opposed to the gradualist and hence populist machinations of the SNP, all of which are focused on the one narrow goal and which I regard as damaging to Scotland's interests.

But for you to suggest that I hate anyone, or anything, simply indicates that you miss the whole point of my posts quite spectacularly.
77

Gordieboy,

Musselburgh 24/07/2008 09:31:50
I've always quite liked the Flanders and Swann song, actually - not all us 'Nats' are minus a sense of humour!

AM2: the point that Scotland 'would not be' a left-wing country is surely simple commonsense...? No country in the developed world could be called genuinely left-wing, with the possible exception of Finland. However I do honestly believe that an independent Scotland would be MORE left-wing than it is at present, with the SNP helping to set a broadly Social Democrat agenda. So whilst Mather's comments may be accurate, it is nonetheless possible to reconcile them to a vision of a centre-left Scotland. For many of us, this takes on added resonance given New Labour's increasingly desperate and transparent lurches to the right as it tries to remain electable in the eyes of Middle England.
78

jacquesmac,

24/07/2008 09:33:44
112 An Beal Bacht,24/07/2008 08:21:57
Whoa there - was that a tremor - is the ground shifting?

It is the collective quiver of colonic sphincters of Slab and ZaNuLab.
79

subrosa,

24/07/2008 09:35:08
#113

I disagree. The presence of Alex Salmond in Glasgow east has shown the people there than some do care enough - even though some may think him smug, arrogant etc. To support his candidate is honourable. Few gave support to Ms Curran who has had to rely on bus loads of English supporters and others creeping in like ships in the night.

Just goes to show how differently the SNP behave compared with labour.

I wish the SNP all the best for today and know they have made wonderful inroads into such a labour stronghold. Also I know they will continue to communicate with the electorate.
80

AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 09:36:03
#4 "Rev" S Campbell

Your comments about a constitutional referendum are not true. Given that active support for independence (in preference to any other broad option) is around 23% and active support for devolution is about 70%, most in the unionist parties are waiting for the outcome of the Calman Commission before really considering what type of referendum might be appropriate.
81

yolanda,

24/07/2008 09:37:20
I hope the voters of Glasgow East look around them today and ponder ask themselves "is this really the best Labour can do for us?". If they are satisfied with their lot, and see it as being the best to expect after years of Labour "fighting for them", they will no doubt put their cross in the Labour box, as usual. I think that's a shame.

Why should people settle for being represented by thieves, liars, and warmongers? I hope they use their vote to try to improve things. I suspect perhaps they won't though.
82

AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 09:39:17
#131 Gordieboy

That's a matter of your own perspective, of course. I don't see Labour as right wing. However, leaving that aside, in his next breath Jim Mather went on to say that most Scots “have enough experience of left-wing policies to know that they only make matters worse”. I don't see that as leaving much room for a social democratic agenda, at least in economic policy.
83

izzie,

dundee 24/07/2008 09:39:47
#114 I could not agree more remember the line of Black South Africans who queued for hours in order to vote in their first free election remember the people of Zimbabwe and get out and vote.

PS just when the debate gets more adult along comes AM2 who tries to reduce it to a trade off of insults.
84

AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 09:40:48
Anyway, I haven't answered all my detractors, and no doubt more will be back shortly to pick holes in this flurry of posts, but I have other things to be getting on with for much of today. Bye for now.
85

AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 09:42:28
#137 izzie

What? It isn't a "trade off of insults" to espouse a non-nationalist position.

Later.
86

Alan B,

24/07/2008 09:45:06
#AM2 You complain about the tone of nat posters then come out with the rubbish you post in #2.

All the candidates are hardline on the constitution. Are you really suggesting any of the 3 unionist candidates are open to independence if evidence was to suggest that is how scotland would be best served.

Trying to paint as only interested in indepdendence really does miss the point. The snp believe scotland is badly served by the union and we would be alot better off taking our own decisions.

If you were to agree with that view which i do, then all the 3 other main candidates are not putting the interests of these consituents first but their own preoccuppation with the union.

I have still yet to see anyone put a proper argument for the union. It is all based on either fear that we are somehow incapable of doing aswell as most of the other small european countries or the quotes that you posted from the other candidates that some how the constitution of a country does not matter.

We all know scotland has been badly run by both labour and the tories. We all know scotland has underperformed economically etc. Now either they have to both come out and say they were incompetent or they have to admit that the structure is wrong. They simply cannot have it both ways.

What is the point in scotland selecting a party to represent it then having another party run its affairs becuase its much larger neighbours prefers another party and takes a different view on so many things.

We have seen 17yrs of tory government in scotland where they were rejected at the polls. In that time we saw the south of britain vote for the loads a money culture while scotland and northern england suffered under huge economic turmoil and recession. Then when they get kicked out it is for a labour government who have sold out all they stood for to make themselves electable in the south. At some point you have to remember the point of living in a democracy.
87

An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 24/07/2008 09:45:20
Thanks AM2. It is people like you inspire me to Vote SNP. Before I was not sure. Now I am
88

The Strategist,

24/07/2008 09:48:01
#131

Finland isn't remotely left wing. No country that developed a company like Nokia could possibly be left wing..

89

subrosa,

24/07/2008 09:49:09
Can anyone who has an insight into this by-election tell me how detrimental it's going to be with it being in the middle of the Glasgow Fair? Thanks.
90

jacquesmac,

24/07/2008 09:50:18
#143

Ever been to Denmark?

Sorry off post but
91

Alan B,

24/07/2008 09:52:29
#134 AM2

"most in the unionist parties are waiting for the outcome of the Calman Commission before really considering what type of referendum might be appropriate"

Do not know how you can say that with a straight face. Labour positions is all over the place. With wendy saying she did not want a referendum in public and then saying she has always wanted on in private. Who knows what their new leader will want. The lib dems under Stephen ruled out a referendum. But now he has gone it will depend again on their new leader. And the tories have argued against a referendum on independence. But have been not commital about a referendum on calman using the tired old not convinced argument yet.

So how can u really justify the statement to say the majority of union parties are waiting until calman reports to decide. So far labour are in turmoil over a referendum and lib dems have ruled one out.
92

,

24/07/2008 09:59:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
93

Red Tower,

Dunoon 24/07/2008 10:04:56
I have a sneaky feeling that Labour is going to hold on.Would that it were not so.
In this age of appearances it is not what folk say , it is the way that they say it. Curran's critics are absolutely right, she never answers direct difficult questions but she has the ability to issue her evasions in such a "forthright" way as to convince half-listening listeners that she has in fact answered the questions. It is a case of "it ain't what you do,it is the way that you do it." Curran and Bush should form a double act.
94

Alan B,

24/07/2008 10:05:18
The whole left right argument is abit obsolete.

Socialism is really dead within mainstream parties. By socialism i mean proper socialism with the state owning the mean of production not some tag used by people who like the term but are really social democrats.

As such the other option is capitalism. And the arguments now are about how you manage capitalism.

1)Do you believe in international competition and free trade or do you believe in protectionism. How much and how do you regulate the labour market.
2)Should that be through trade unions or/and government regulations/legislation.
3)And finally the level of taxation to pay for welfare and public services.

So while a social democratic is said to left of centre they are supporting the right wing capitalist economic philosophy. With some more tax, regulation and protectionism.

If we look at all the major parties in scotland and the uk none support protectionism. Labour have given up the ghost of strong trade unions.

The only real issue that can divide is taxation and even here it is relatively marginal. With again labour giving up the believe that redistribution and punitive taxation is workable beyond argeeing with the rest in having a funded welfare system.

As such the real argument is what is workable and how do we compete in the real world, how do we create jobs, how do we make them well paid, how do we improve the standard of living.

Therefore arguing about being leftish or rightish is pointless and we should abandon talking in terms of these tags and focus on the actual policies to manage a capitalist economy.
95

Longdirk Maceth,

nz 24/07/2008 10:11:46
Come on people of Glasgow have a bit of vision, and go for it.
96

man-in-a-suitcase,

Miami beach 24/07/2008 10:12:49
Today's editorial in the Scottish Daily Express.

"Voting for the SNP in Glasgow will demonstrate that they believe the Nationalists should be given an opportunity that has repeatedly been squandered by Labour in the East End. Let's give John Mason his chance to show what the SNP can do for Glasgow."


Nice to see the Scottish media is starting to talk some sense at last. Long may it continue!
97

AJ Fife,

24/07/2008 10:13:27
The choice is simple for Glasgow's East End. The voters either want to remain in the grip of the Scottish Labour Party who peddle local misery, corruption and poverty, or they can further endorse Scotland's only real hope for the future, the SNP!

After seeing a few of the electorate being interviewed over the last few days, it would seem they will opt for the continuance of Labour inspired misery! Of course, they all could have been hand picked by the BBC!!!
98

CLX,

WayUpNorth 24/07/2008 10:15:46
AlanB #149
Are you aware that normally on this site it is more common to move off of thread and slag off anyone who doesn't agree with you...
How dare you come on here a give clear and concise arguments that make sense....like it... ;-)
99

Stirling Sentinel,

Stirling 24/07/2008 10:16:08
Can I be the first to congratulate Margaret Curran for her winning the seat this evening. It was a close call but we all knew that. Anyway reason triumphed and we all wish her every success in the proper parliament. Hopefully she will give up the "wee pretendy parliament" in North Britain. Well done and long live the Union.
100

Old Cartha Boy,

Govanhill 24/07/2008 10:17:15

The best advert for voting SNP was seeing Margaret Curran on Newsnight - a lamentable performance by this harridan - certainly wouldn't like to be her husband taking home a torn pay packet. SNP should just run this clip all day, outside every polling station and watch the votes flood their way!
101

AJ Fife,

24/07/2008 10:17:19
Yolanda#135,

Not only do you still have the most exotic name on these threads, but you always talk pure sense.

btw, how is Patrick?
102

Andrew D,

bne 24/07/2008 10:18:31
I so so hope that the "my grandfather and father voted labour so" etc brigade don't bring this home for Labour.

The thing that comes to mind is the famous quote from Albert Einstein.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
103

An Beal Bacht,

24/07/2008 10:25:27
122 - I am my own man. Try it sometime.
104

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 24/07/2008 10:26:00
Looks like AM2 is in for a busy day, but then I suppose anyone who can have four posts done on four different topics timed at 0013:23
0013:51
0016:37
0017:35

Should be able to cope, I can only imagine that between posts two and three he was a way to the toilet or something.

And there are those who think there are something fishy about the AM2 posts..........never!
105

An Beal Bacht,

24/07/2008 10:27:05
125 - Aye.
106

Tarchin,

Lothian 24/07/2008 10:30:03
Politicians are like bananas, some are green, some are yellow and there isn't a straight one in the whole bunch
107

Red Tower,

Dunoon 24/07/2008 10:31:44
#149

There is a lot of truth in what you say.We have a one-party state masquerading as a two-party one.

The only thing that scares the Hell out of me however is the fact that our two major parties will shortly wake up to the realities of the future global situation i.e with a depleted earth supplying a greater and greater population. And of course we, in Britain , will not be immune to the effects resulting.I would suggest that having a "funded welfare system" is something to which both major parties will merely play lip-service in future . And it will dawn on both parties that our electoral system is an asset in this situation i.e you only have to offer a higher standard of living to under 40% of the population to win elections. And of course as the under classes are increasingly ignored they will participate in the electoral process less.

I can foresee a lot more Glasgow Easts in the future.
108

Teamdroid,

24/07/2008 10:32:41
#122 - Hmm, that quote's got us all baffled, AM2. Or maybe you're the one that's baffled...
109

An Beal Bacht,

24/07/2008 10:36:52
132 - brain to sphincter - release? Aye - their full ae it.
110

An Beal Bacht,

24/07/2008 10:38:08
Onwards the Socialist Republic of Scotland !
111

Stuntman Mike,

not on Nats' hate list 24/07/2008 10:38:12
#163 ochone: AM2 obviously composes his posts in word and then pastes them into his browser, much as I do myself. It improves quality, as you can spell check and proof read more readily: nothing sinister about this practice, I can assure you, ochone old bean!
112

Steve_HMFC,

24/07/2008 10:42:11
I noticed on the news last night that the Tories were using their full official title of "Conservative and Unionist Party" on campaign ads... I havn't seen them use this very often these days and they are rarely referred to by their full Sunday name...

Its probably strategy to use it in Scotland with the SNP etc.... but to use it in a constituency which houses Celtic Park and is predominantly Catholic (and theorically sympathetic to Irish nationalism).. bit of an own goal to use the word 'unionist' which a lot of these constituents would associate with hot cross buns ...
113

fiferjohn,

24/07/2008 10:45:16
am2 that would be aright if scotland was treated like an equal in the union but we are not we and that will allways call for the status quo to be done away with.
recent events has showen scotland has been putting more in than it has been getting back .that to me is not right.if westminister wants to save the union then they have to treat scotland with a lot more respect and give scotland a far share not a pittance.
114

John S,

24/07/2008 10:45:44
Let the Labour Party not kid itself, a solid Labour constituency for many years, Labour's third safest in Scotland and 25th in the UK, with 18,775(60.7%)of the total votes cast to give them a 13,507 votes majority at the 2005 general election.
They shouldn't even be close to loosing this by-election,in reality it should be a "gimme" especially with a fine candidate in Margaret Curran who came through the selection process with flying colours and Gordon Brown as our PM.
115

An Beal Bacht,

24/07/2008 10:48:29
And there's the Hootsman obliterating posts so that number references no longer apply and argument is completely disorganized.

Shoite.
116

Scottish 'N British,

24/07/2008 10:50:53
If my quick shifty through these posts is anything to go by, the Separatist cause is set for defeat.

Lat night's newsnightScotland was interesting, if only because it was fairly downbeat.

Aitken spewed the same stuff, nothing new there.

Moores called it spot on - no one was interested in talking about separation.

Purcell looked like he had been instructed by party advisors to keep it brief, and say nothing controversial.

When i saw Alec Neill, my spirits raised - here we go, I thought. But no, subdued and very disappointing. Reality appeared to have dawned.

The earthquake his Boss has been on about all week looks like it's nothing to do with politcial change, but merely what happens when an obese first minister walks the streets.

Bateman was rubbish.




117

AJ Fife,

24/07/2008 10:51:59
What's going on with this thread, with all the posts disappearing?

Is this the Johnson Press version of free speech??
118

An Beal Bacht,

24/07/2008 10:54:27
Noo-Labour insiders are forecasting an SNP victory with a majority of 500. Check it out.
119

yolanda,

24/07/2008 10:56:09
#123, Hi AJ, How are you? Patrick is doing fine thanks. You know, keeping all the magazines tidy on the racks etc.

As for talking sense, I just hope the voters in Glasgow East will listen to sense, and wake up to the fact that they have been shafted for far too long. I doubt it though. I fear that they will listen to Margaret on the soapbox outside the bingo hall.
120

An Beal Bacht,

24/07/2008 10:56:18
Noo-Labour toast - well done.
121

Carmichael, A.,

Scotland 24/07/2008 10:58:13
There have been real signs of desperation from Labour throughout this by-election but there have been none as comical as Purcell on Newsnicht last night. I can only conclude that for someone as respected as Purcell to resort to such nonsense then Labour's recent private polling must be showing real cause for Labour concern, nay, panic. But, some of the more interesting suggestions to counteract the SNP have come not just from Labour but from the other parties and it is to resort to the old nonsense that independence is an irrelevance. Or, at least only a high-minded abstract distraction from the reall issues. This deliberately misses the point about independence for Scotland, of course, because nobody who believes in independence thinks of independence a and end-point, independence is merely a means to an end. The end being the proper means and institutional tools to endeavour for better standards of living in a way that has become patently obvious over these last hundred years will not come from Westminster. The end being to forge proper and good relations with all our neighbours and endeavour to build upon the warm feelings people have for Scotland all over the world. The end being to enjoy influence in a unique institution, the EU, that invloves equal relations between states within the European Union and engage, as part of the EU, in all manner of global interactions. In other words, there is nothing about independence that is abstractedly high-minded because the everyday issues and the high-minded issues become one and the same.

The greatest thing about this by-election, for me, is not that the SNP may just win, which would be absolutely great, but clearly people in Glasgow East have become receptive to the message of the importance of independence. Independence for Scotland would improve the politics for the wider British Isles and of Europe, I think, as Scotland gains the modern typ of sovereignty that recognises the importance of interdependency.
122

Carmichael, A.,

Scotland 24/07/2008 10:59:01
~143 cont.
Independence for Scotland, equally, would help people in Scotland improve their own politics and therefore their own everyday issues. Thus, another reason why Purcell must have felt he had to rely on such a comical line of argument as he did last night, perhaps, because his own justifications for the anachronistic union have become increasingly ridiculous.
123

An Beal Bacht,

24/07/2008 10:59:22
Gurn says:

"My message to every voter in the East End is this: use your vote to elect a fighter who will stand up for you."

That'll be Mr Mason then ! Thanks for the vote of confidence Maggie.
124

Free by '93,

24/07/2008 11:02:46
If the SNP have more votes than last time it means everyone in Scotland now wants independence.

There is no such thing as getting fed up with Labour and tactical, it means everyone wants Alex Salmond to be king.
125

An Beal Bacht,

24/07/2008 11:05:56
146 Free by '93, 24/07/2008 11:02:46 wrote:

"If the SNP have more votes than last time it means everyone in Scotland now wants independence.

There is no such thing as getting fed up with Labour and tactical, it means everyone wants Alex Salmond to be king."

There'll be no kings in the Socialist Republic of Scotland.
126

Adolf H supports nationalism,

24/07/2008 11:06:32
Unless you are true Scottish blood please stop posting.

Independence is our future. We love our country too much to let it be governed by the people of Scotland. It will be governed the way we want, we know what is best for Scotland.
127

AJ Fife,

24/07/2008 11:07:52
Yolanda,

I'm very well thanks. I reckon you're right, however, if the SNP can take a reasonable chunk of the Labour majority, it'll still be a success for Mr Salmond and his govt!

As for Patrick, you keep an eye on the auld devil - remember the Pat Butcher shenanigans......

128

Scottish 'N British,

24/07/2008 11:10:50
Enjoying seeing Separatist opinion inmbibing a dose of political realism.

So little faith - it's not all over, yet, chaps!!


129

Stuntman Mike,

not on Nats' hate list 24/07/2008 11:13:44
#149: thanks for that, ghost of Hen Broon!
130

Number 6,

Germany 24/07/2008 11:16:41
Come on good people of Glasgow East. Decades of Labour "control" have left you living in what is officially recognised as "One of the most deprived areas in Europe". You owe it to your children to give them a fighting chance in life. If, after months of living under the SNP, you find you would rather live in poverty and deprivation, then you can always vote them out and have trough cleaners like Marshall back in to hive off money for himself and his family that
should have been spent on you.

Is that really how you like to be treated, never mind the blatent liar and 5th choice candidate they are foisting on you.
131

,

24/07/2008 11:21:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
132

Scottish 'N British,

24/07/2008 11:21:22
Deceitful Separatism.

"If, after months of living under the SNP, you find you would rather live in poverty and deprivation, then you can always vote them out"


Months - eh - helloooo!!! Elections take place every 4-5 years!!

Perhaps it's the mist over the North Sea.
133

An Beal Bacht,

24/07/2008 11:24:08
"It's not over yet cheps."

It's aw ower bar the shoutin.
134

Number 6,

Germany 24/07/2008 11:28:58
#155 Scottish AND british. The Next General election must be held in 2010!! That's months away. Can you never stop making a complete fool of yourself.

Perhaps it's the unionjack waistcoat, too tight but you won't admit it . lol lol
135

DouglasT,

24/07/2008 11:30:58
Reference the Scotsman's invitation to readers to submit questions to candidates via yoosh.com.

Ms Curran has not answered a single question.

Mr Mason and Ms Rankin are both answering the questions put to them.
136

yolanda,

24/07/2008 11:37:55
AJ,

Don't worry. He's no longer capable of getting up to that kind of nonsense. I made sure of that!

You're right about it being a victory for the SNP if they take a big chunk of Labour's majority, even if they don't quite bag the main prize this time.

I don't think I could stand to hear the old tiresome Labour mantra of "The voters have sent us a clear message and we are listening" routine yet again though. M Curran doesn't know HOW to listen. All she does is screech, interrrupt, and duck and dive from pertinent questions. Listening ain't one of her qualities.
137

Scottish 'N British,

24/07/2008 11:38:39
"must be held in 2010!! That's months away."


Doh!!

When we in Great Britain talk of "months away", we tend to speak in terms of something a bit closer than at least 22 months' time!!

Back of the net.


138

Scottish 'N British,

24/07/2008 11:39:50
158

Have it on good authority that Minder Salmond answered for Wee John.
139

Stuntman Mike,

not on Nats' hate list 24/07/2008 11:40:47
#153 Number 6: yes, quite right. A one issue fanatic is just the chap that’s needed to sort out the social problems of Glasgow East.

If only the SNP would kick the separation agenda further into the long grass, they might attract more candidates with wider interests in developing policy. I actually wonder if Salmond wants to be defeated in a referendum to allow him to build on the popularity of his non independence related policies and attract more Swinneys than Masons into the party (now there’s a conspiracy theory for you!)
140

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 24/07/2008 11:41:14
Earthquake? I think Salmon needs to stay off the kebabs and irn bru for a while.
141

Number 6,

Germany 24/07/2008 11:44:30
#160 No way , you are the one rabbitting on about every 4 or 5 years. You thought they could wait that long AFTER this by-election. Idiot.
142

An Beal Bacht,

24/07/2008 11:45:06
160 Scottish 'N British, 24/07/2008 11:38:39 wrote:

"When we in GREAT BRITAIN talk we are, of course, talking of the past. When those in Scotland talk they are, of course, talking about the future."

So much for English 'N English.
143

Steve_HMFC,

24/07/2008 11:47:05
"If the SNP have more votes than last time it means everyone in Scotland now wants independence."

Dont think thats necessarily true, despite the SNP's good poll ratings, the independance polls have not matched this.

Alex Salmond even seems to have taken the tactic of not mentioning independance too much because it has a negative effect on his party's poll ratings
144

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 24/07/2008 11:48:49
#160 "at least 22 months' time!!"

At MOST 22 months' time, silly boy. Could be five months from now.
145

An Beal Bacht,

24/07/2008 11:49:21
My goodness - the thread has become infested with unionist rats ! Where did they all come from one wonders? Sinking ship perhaps? LoL - Ah'm aff - done deal.
146

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 24/07/2008 11:50:22
Yo- AM2 - three direct questions for you!

In answer to my question - 'is AM2 blinded by hate?' you answered:- "I am opposed to the gradualist and hence populist machinations of the SNP, all of which are focused on the one narrow goal"

How can a gradualist policy ever be described as populist?, you are nerver going to win votes by promising anything gradually - or can you? - if you can please provide an example of this.

Secondly your continual assertion of late (reading from the current unionist script)is that the SNP's sole policy is the creation of an Independent Scotland. All observers would agree that the SNP are trying to change the UK's constitution, whilst achieving this goal they have as full a set of policies as any other political party. To represent the SNP in this light has as much credibility as for me to insist that the Labour parties raison d etre is preserving the union. Is it not completely disengenious to claim that the SNP have only one policy?.

Lastly - do you not think that making such narrow and obviosly incorrect statements only perpetuates the view that unionist posters are only interested in dumbing down the debate into a ridiclous spat?- an arguement over the most basic elements, an argument that belittles a mature democracy. It's like me insisting to you that the large ball of sun in the sky means it's daytime,you then agree and then I insist 'naw but that means it's daytime'ZZZZzzzzzzzz

Please AM2 - discuss
147

Scottish 'N British,

24/07/2008 11:50:36
"If only the SNP would kick the separation agenda further into the long grass, they might attract more candidates with wider interests in developing policy."

It's the accusation most thrown at the SNP - well that and Broken Promises.

In a nutshell, they can't. It's their raison d'etre.

Wonder what the uber-Nats think of that one if it raised its head.

make no mistake, the Separatist group at Holyrood is a motley crew. Defeat in Glasgow east will surely bring on unrest from backbenchers and I predict tough times ahead for Salmond.

Alec Neill will be particularly upset. Looked like he had thrown in the towel on Newsnight Scotland last night.

Someone will pay. Remember he has history with Eck.


148

Number 6,

Germany 24/07/2008 11:51:26
What ? you want the Snp to stop talking about Independance. Why on earth would they want to hide from the public their intentions. That's labour's tactics. The SNP have nothing to hide and dropping the independance policy would be disastorous.

Why should they , they unionista parties cannott come up with a decent argument for remaining in this ludicrous political union. We can do much better without the burden of Englandshire. Have you seen the way they are up in arms at the amount of Scots in the cabinet for example? Have you any idea how much the English olyimpics is going to cost the average scottish family.

Why would anyone want to stay shackled to a people who obviousley resent us in anything but a subservient role. Absolutley ludicrous.
149

Scottish 'N British,

24/07/2008 11:53:17
167

Oh dear, tears. Or is it meltdown

Yep, you got it. Brown is, what, 25 points behind Cameron. Everything points to an early poll - not !!

Doh!!
150

Barry Donald Scarfe,

Brentwood 24/07/2008 11:57:09
Carmichael A, do you seriously think the EU will last the next twenty odd years let alone for a couple of hundred years more? Even a massive beneficiary of the EU (to the tune of billions much of which is our money) ie the Republic of Ireland and who was the EU's 'best pupil'is now increasingly fed-up with the rule of far off beaurocrats in Brussels. The rallying cry of Sinn Fein/IRA in the 1920's was "a nation once again" but the present day reality of the Republic due to its EU membership is more like 'a province once again!'
151

kimba,

24/07/2008 11:57:35
Every vote for the snp is a vote for a tory government at westminster,you can count on it!
152

Number 6,

Germany 24/07/2008 11:59:37
#172 you can bluff all you want. you lost the argument hands down. Good of you to point out Brown is so hated in Englandshire he is 25 points behind the tories.

That's right people of Scotland, stay in the "union" and you face a return to tory rule. Is that really what you want, especially after the Thatcher years ?.

Imagine a Scotland controlled by Labour with the Tories in power at Westminster.

The union? you could not get more divided than that.
153

Barry Donald Scarfe,

Brentwood 24/07/2008 12:03:14
No 6, no normal and fair-minded person in England gives a damm about how many Scots are in the cabinet. The only concern most people have about this Labour government is their policies which are often wrong and not what part of the United Kingdom they come from. I admit there are a few bigots/nutters who do but they are in a VERY SMALL minority as is show by the pathetic number of votes a party called the English Democrats receive. They normally get thrashed by the Monster Raving Loony Party!
154

John S,

24/07/2008 12:05:26
#174-Tebbit hits out at Tories and names Brown as Thatcher's natural heir.
Lord Tebbit declared that Mr Cameron was regarded as out of touch by ordinary people and that it was only natural that Mr Brown should make himself the “heir to Thatcher”.
From The Times - September 26, 2007
155

Stuntman Mike,

Not on Nats' hate list 24/07/2008 12:07:30
#171 Number 6: “dropping the independance policy would be disastorous.” But the party’s been able to break many years of Labour hegemony in Scotland by emphasising populist policies such as free prescriptions and the freezing of CT and it seems to have built up a broad appeal which, like it or not, has succeeded in attracting the votes of many who do not support separation.

I really think that the separation policy will go the way of Labour’s Clause 4 (remember that?) in years to come, particularly after the party finally loses its much cherished referendum. Wake up and smell the cookies, all you fundamentalist Nats out there! You can only fight against the tide for so long!
156

Barry Donald Scarfe,

Brentwood 24/07/2008 12:08:07
It's a British Olympics and not an English one.
157

AJ Fife,

24/07/2008 12:11:06
Yolanda,

Curran's performance when asked about Marshall's alleged constituency office scam was priceless! She squirmed like a trapped snake......LOL

158

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 24/07/2008 12:14:04
Stuntman old sport, I was refering to how much he manages to do in such a short space of time, I mean thinking up answers, composing them the right way, posting and over four different subjects.

Now unless he possesses the 'sight', and knows the questions in advance, the times he does it in are nothing short of amazing, unlike his answers.

But then maybe he does, then again........
159

Americanbob,

Edinburgh 24/07/2008 12:14:39
Hey Guys, which balloon in the picture is the Labor candidate?
160

Scottish 'N British,

24/07/2008 12:14:44
176

I'm a regular visitor to England. Couldn't agree more with your sentiments.

161

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/07/2008 12:19:46
Why should he or we care what his main opponents think about him? Also I think you will find that Mason's record as a councillor is held in high regard by many people.

Incidently, being in politics to break up the Union and being an effective MP are not mutually exclusive!
162

The Master,

No 4 on Nats' hate list and rising 24/07/2008 12:20:09
Margaret Curran: ?I?d like to wipe smile off Salmond?s face?.

Well done to Margaret on her soundbite: the Nats will be truly sunk once their greatest asset finally turns into a liability, as he will: it?s been the fate of all leading politicians in recent times. Need I mention a certain Gordon Brown, who had immense respect in Scotland until at least the last general election. Am I right or am I right!
163

European Scot,

24/07/2008 12:22:02
183

"Couldn't agree more with your sentiments",

This to a BNP supporter ?
Now there's a surprise, not.
164

Carmichael, A.,

Scotland 24/07/2008 12:22:42
Hi Barry Donald Scarfe,

Yes, I think the EU is here to stay but I don't think it's sustainable with the current complications. There are two elements of the EU pulling in different directions currently but that won't last indefinitely, obviously. The issues about democracy and trying to remedy the so-called democratic deficit are issues that will eventually run their course and allow the EU to become what it was always supposed to be: a place for state governments to meet up and see about achieving something of mutual benefit. The democratic defecit only really needs to be addressed if one thinks the EU should peform the functions of a state but the democratic defecit doesn't need to be addressed for the EU to be merely a meeting place for state governments. Nothing about being a state government and meeting up with other state governments indicates any place or other is a province. Remember, the ECJ and EC are really just there to try and ensure a level playing field when agreements between state governments are entered into. So, I think the EU will return to what it was always intended to be, eventually, and some of the problems you point out are just some of the complications arising from misguided notions of what some in the EU think the EU should be, and what some outside the EU fear what the EU could become.

Plus, the EU generates an enormous amount of wealth for its member-states and such wealth can be put to good use and so as long as the EU generates wealth and the member-states recognise such wealth creation then, yes, the EU will remain.
165

Scottish 'N British,

24/07/2008 12:23:46
185

Four victories in 10 years as a cooncillor in Glasgow underlines that point.

166

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/07/2008 12:25:14
#2 AM2 states:

"Any of the other three candidates would do a better job for the East End."

There goes your credibility AM2. a silly statement with all the hallmarks of a troll.
167

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 24/07/2008 12:26:45
It seems from the current opinion polls, (if they are reflective of what will be the polling intentions in 2010), that there is likely to be a Conservative government at Westminster whatever Scotland votes for. Even if the whole of Scotland were to return only Labour MPs the 59 Scottish MPs are going to make very little difference in a a total of 646. In the 1980s and 90s, Scotland's 50 Labour MPs did not have any impact on or dp anything to prevent 18 years of a Conservative government. What England votes for England gets, what Scotland votes for is neither here nor there. Only where Labour has been returned with a majority of under 50 has Scotland had any impact on the result. In these circumstance a further General Election tends to take place within a short period in order to give the Govermement a larger working majority and remove any influence/power that Scotland has e.g. the two elections of 1974. The more powers that come to Holyrood the greater Scotland's ability to protect itself from the worst effects of Westminster's authority. Labour could not protects us in the past; they are incapable of doing it in the future.
168

Richard,

west lothian 24/07/2008 12:39:22
Vote for independence and Scotland will never have to suffer a Tory government again!
169

Highland Mighty©,

24/07/2008 12:43:13
175. Excellent logic.

How about a Republican President and a Democrat State Governor in the US......is that union falling apart?

According to reality: Of course not.

According to you: Yes!
170

Saruman,

say no to the one issue fanatic in Glasgow East 24/07/2008 12:44:31
#193 Huntly looney: were you against the reduction in Scotland?s representation at Westminster after the creation of the SP then? It?s only fair that Scotland?s representation should be on an equal basis with the rest of the UK.
171

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24/07/2008 12:45:55
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/07/2008 12:48:59
To all fellow Nationalists, do not be dis-heartened! The winning margin for Margaret Curran in her beloved Baillieston constituency in the 2007 Holyrood elections was a mere 11.2%, meaning that a small swing of 5.6% to the SNP would see her deservedly slung out on her ear.

If this voting pattern is at all representative of the Westminster constituency of Glasgow East (and I believe it is), then we will see John Mason elected.

I predict a winning margin of around 2,500 votes in favour of Mason. This will result in panic and anger in the Labour camp.
173

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/07/2008 12:52:21
#85 AM2

And why are Blair and Brown Tories?
174

Barry Donald Scarfe,

Brentwood 24/07/2008 12:56:07
Carmichael A, the EU hasn't really moved away from its founding principle which was enacted in the Treaty of Rome ie "ever closer union". No subsequent treaty has departed from this as is shown by the fact that we have witnessed more and more powers taken-away from national parliaments and centralised in Brussels. Once Brussels has taken the powers it has never given them back under the principle of the 'acquis communataire'. It is an ever-increasing 'ratchet' effect.


There is no problem with european governments co-operating to mutual advantage but that doesn't need the EU in order to ahieve that. It can be done through the Council of Europe. Personally, I think the Concorde project was a brilliant example of Britain and France working together but it wasn't done through the EU.
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24/07/2008 12:58:44
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jacquesmac,

24/07/2008 13:02:22
195 Highland Mighty©,24/07/2008 12:43:13
175. Excellent logic.

How about a Republican President and a Democrat State Governor in the US......is that union falling apart?

According to reality: Of course not.

According to you: Yes!

But they have their own LIT

OOPPSS

Own Goal Highland!
177

Barry Donald Scarfe,

Brentwood 24/07/2008 13:02:54
Re 191. Yes, the bigots of the Daily Express, the Daily Telgraph, and the Daily Mail do whinge and moan about a non-existent Scottish Raj but most intelligent people dismiss all of this for the offensive garbage it undoubtedly is. If people were stupid enough to believe this nonsense then they would vote for our equivalent of the SNP the English Democrats but they don't as has been shown in numerous by-elections where they get crushed by the likes of the Monster Raving Loony Party.


Speaking for myself, I don't give a monkeys how many Scottish politicians are in the cabinet provided they are competant and rule in the interests of all parts of the Kingdom. Some of our best PMs have been Scots!
178

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24/07/2008 13:04:06
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,

24/07/2008 13:04:34
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24/07/2008 13:05:08
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24/07/2008 13:05:52
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Barry Donald Scarfe,

Brentwood 24/07/2008 13:08:38
Re: 191. Also, we need to remember it isn't just Tory rags in London printing this obnoxious rubbish it is Labour-supporting rags like the Daily Record who have often tried to stir tensions over football.
183

Number 6,

24/07/2008 13:09:31
#179 "Its a british olyimpics not English". Correct me if i'm wrong, ALL the events will be held in England.
ALL construction and re-generation
projects will take place in England.
ALL jobs created will be created in
England.

The only time they will involve Scotland, is when they send us a gigantic bill. Disagree ?. Think that's acceptable ?.

#195 Highland Mighty , why on earth are you using America as an analegy ????. I am, of course, referring to the nightmare that was a Tory goverment ruling over a Scotland that had voted overwhelmingly against them.
Do I have to remind you what happened, why do you think the POll-tax was introduced first into Scotland ?.

The choice is clear , determine our own future or,as we have done in the past, leave it up tio Englandshire to decide our fate and suffer the consequences.

Ask the good people of Glasgow East,officially designated "One of the most deprived areas in Europe ".

THATS what you get with Labour, those people are living proof.
184

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 24/07/2008 13:15:24
Do not quote me on this, but my understanding was that in the past, Scottish MPs represented constituencies with smaller electorates than in England, partly to deal with specifically Scottish legislation in the UK parliament and because of the diffrent legal, education and other systems. When the Scottish Parliament was created I believe the numbers of Scottish MPs were reduced to bring their electorates more in line with that of England. I do recall that Northern Ireland, because of Stormont, was grossly under-represented at one time. I do not have the figures. Not only is there no need for Scotland to be over-represented (which was justifiable in the past for the reasons I have stated) but I think that bringing Scottish constituencies into line with England in size of electorates, which is probably the fairest solution, now as created another complication in that Scottish MPs' workloads are less onerous than their English counterparts since most of the matters of greatest concern to constituents are now devolved. There are now 2 MP/MSPs for Scotland to 1 MP for England covering the same degree of work. While the UK still has pretence of being a sovereign state it is probably a breach of the European Coventions to have one geographical area under-represented in relation to another area in what is still technically the sovereign parliament.
185

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24/07/2008 13:17:11
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186

Cuthulan,

approx.12,000miles from Earth's core 24/07/2008 13:18:33
#2 AM2
"John Mason is of course a “hardline” nationalist. But it goes further than that.
He has said that his only reason for even being in politics in to break up Britain."

AM2 is of course a "hardline" nationalist (British).But it goes further than that. He has said his only reason for even being on the comment section is to stop the break up of Britain.

This is demonstarted by his quote
"Any of the other three candidates would do a better job for the East End" i.e. ANY unionist is better than the SNP.

Pot Calling kettle black I think.
AM2 you stand at the sidelines taking snidey shots at people but offer NO SOLUTION except the status Quo . Who do you recommend we vote for and why ? I recommend the SNP because the Union causes
1.unemployment
2.drives away business,
3.causes a population exodus especially amoungst the well educated.
4.Removes the tools from the people of Scotland to deal with the problems of Scotland
5.Drastically reduces living standards in Scotland

Those that CAN, DO
Those that CAN'T, TEACH
Those that CAN'T TEACH , Critisize
You AM2 are a critic ,IF you have something constructive to say and "Vote for anybody BUT the SNP" is NOT EVEN constructive critisism then please lets hear it . But from your previous posts when I do manage to get something definate out of you it ALWAYS wrong.
Strong Britsh economy AM2 , strong finacial markets? You did not notice the over priced housing getting paid for by credit cards and all the worthless American debt stuffed into the banking system?
187

European Scot,

24/07/2008 13:27:45
208 Barry Donald Scarfe

"Re: 191. Also, we need to remember it isn't just Tory rags in London printing this obnoxious rubbish it is Labour-supporting rags like the Daily Record who have often tried to stir tensions over football."

Very touching to read of your concerns about stirring tensions.
That must be so alien to your beliefs in............. the BNP ?

188

Cuthulan,

approx.12,000miles from Earth's core 24/07/2008 13:27:47
#204 and 211 Adolf Hitler was a nationalist
yes a GREATER GERMANY , FATHERLAND NATIONALIST . He opposed Bavarian nationalism,Prussian and Rhineland nationlism he supported the FATHERLAND and Greater Germany and Germanic people. He also was a psuedo socialist, held the title of chancellor and was appointed as the country's leader NOT voted , this seems to be more like Gordon Brown(shirt) and the New Labour experiment. If only the Bavarian ,Prussian and Rhineland nationalists had managed to defeat this Greater Germany nationalism, WW2 might never of happened!!
189

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24/07/2008 13:28:25
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Braes of Glenmiller,

Doon the Watter for the Fair 24/07/2008 13:34:20
An SNP victory might just shake Labour up enough to turn it into the formidable fighting machine that it used to be.

I was a one time Labour activist in the S of England when I lived there and the effort and organisation in 1997 were magnificent. A lot of the campaigning strategy came from "aquired" copies of the Lib Dem local campaign strategy book which was then used nationally.

Like many others I have since left the Labour party over Iraq and its refusal to implement policies that will benefit the people who built and supported it.

I have always been aware of the reputation of local Labour parties in the West of Scotland, indeed they were something of a joke in the South; a byword for nepotism, patronage, and "interesting" use of funds.

The Scottish press have lived in fear of Labour for many years rather than the opposite being the case.

A win for the SNP today may open the floodgates as journos may be encouraged to finally investigate the goings on at local party and council level.

Of course if Labour win it will be a lockdown again.

I'm not really interested in political parties anymore, there is no real difference in policy between any of them. Tories, New Labour, Lib Dem. Cameron and Clegg even sound nearly identical on the radio.

So, the SNP is tasting power for the first time in Scotland and so far it doesn't appear to have deserted it's core support, it's proved remarkably popular, and most of all, party members and officials have not been afraid to go out and meet the people of Glasgow East.

This is a marked difference to the ruling party (13500 maj!!!!) who have struggled to get any high profile visitors, and whose leader seems more comfortable toting a machine gun in Iraq or looking over an Israeli wall at the Gaza strip.

Taxes on the rich have gone down, taxes on the poor have gone up.

I'm still waiting for my £20 a month back from the abolition of the 10% tax band. As with most New Labour things,it has been promised
191

N B,

24/07/2008 13:36:28
What this campaign has shown is the egomania of the SNP leadership. Long gone are the days when they campaigned for an independent Scotland. Now they are a party of political chameleons prepared to adopt any populist policy to gain political office for their members. Where are the principles?

That said, if you want an independent Scotland(albeit a puppet of the European Superstate) you should use a showcase by-election such as this to record intent. If you want to have a go at the Labour party, then what would hurt them most would be a groundswell of support for the Liberals or Conservatives in what they consider to be their heartland. If you think the last 11 years have nmoved the country forward then vote Labour.
192

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 24/07/2008 13:36:47
The bigger picture will become clearer at the next Westminster and Holyrood elections. Some media have decided at the beginning of the campaign that it would be framed as an SNP defeat, displacing as much as possible talk of the inevitable massive damage that will be inflicted, even if Labour hold on. If they hold on, the Scotsman's headline is 'Salmond weakened by Glasgow East humiliation' or something idiotic like that. If any party other than the SNP had a chance of taking this seat off Labour all of the expenses stuff about Marshall would have come out by now.
The bigger picture - at the 2007 Holyrood elections the SNP had the Labour Party seriously on the run in 32 first past the post constituencies where they came in second to Labour, in most cases they came a very close second. There were a few cases of the SNP coming in second with honourable numbers but to big Labour majorities in Motherwell and, dare I say it, Paisley North, but most Labour majorities in the so-called 'Labour heartlands' are pretty shaky.
This by-election is an excellent chance to give some real up to date clues to the SNP about how much of a position they will be in to assail the 'unassailable', and what chance they have of breaking down these majorities in the Glasgow constituencies. Given that Labour are in a worse position now than they were in 2007...
The SNP will be studying this election like hell after it. The importance of this by-election for the SNP is not just in winning this, it's about seeing how big a swing is actually possible in this area and what needs to be done to improve it and replicate it.
Labour will be studying the election aswell, but they are handicapped by the fact that they can't accept that they've done anything wrong. They believe in something called a natural Labour voter, which will be their downfall.
193

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24/07/2008 13:39:52
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Braes of Glenmiller,

Not BerteschGarten 24/07/2008 13:48:07
Adolf..........was a National...

.......you just missed out the Socialist part of his party name!!!

SNP...renewable energy commitment.

Labour, currently blocking legislation in Europe to allow renewable energy companies equal access to the grid to compete on a level basis with coal, nuclear, and gas.

Yet Labour tells us it's committed to renewable energy.

Not if their paymasters in the fossil and nuclear powered engineering business have anything to do with it.

Time for change.
195

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/07/2008 13:51:34
#219 Laughable! Troll alert!
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24/07/2008 13:52:27
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Number 6,

Germany 24/07/2008 13:53:40
211 So what if London is the capital of the UK. You don't need to be a capital city to host the Olympics.
My point is this wil all be taking place hundreds of miles from Scotland , yet we are going to receive a huge bill, debt that wil take years of taxes to pay off. Yet only England will benefit in any way.

We have not decided our own future for hundreds of years, we have let Westminster decide what happens in our country. Only since devolution have we had a voice over how we should procede.

Should we bin the Commenwealth Games ? do they not fly in the face of the logic of a British Olyimpic squad?
198

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24/07/2008 13:58:27
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Braes of Glenmiller,

Enjoying the warm sunshine before the heating bill 24/07/2008 13:58:31
Well Adolf.....I'd prefer MSP's and MP's to be elected on the basis of what they'd do for their constituents and not on some outdated party dogma that panders to their sponsors.

So no Tory or Nu (big biz) Labour, but the Lib Dems are a pathertic rag tag bunch, the Greens are out of touch, and the socialists are still living out the fantasies of Marx and Engels without considering the consequences for real people. As for the various right wing types...yuk!

SNP in scotland at the moment seem the default candidates but then they have no Scottish party able to produce Scottish policies to oppose them and seriously debate Scottish issues.
200

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24/07/2008 13:59:21
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JimC,

Kilmarnock 24/07/2008 14:01:18
I think you will find that Hitler was a National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP) member. You will also find that his view was that the superior Aryans were at the top of the hierarchy while assigning the bottom orders to Jews and Roma (Gypsies). The SNP have as much in common with Hitler as I have with the Nu-Labour party. Given that over a 100 promises have already been implemented in the first 12 months of an SNP government, we still have 3 years to go, but I suppose then you will moan it took the SNP 4 years to fulfill their manifesto commitments!
202

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24/07/2008 14:01:27
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203

Hamish Scott,

24/07/2008 14:01:34
#2
What's extreme about wanting independence for Scotland? Are the Danes or Irish extreme for wanting to be independent?
204

Braes of Glenmiller,

Oh he's gone.... 24/07/2008 14:02:11
Repugnant name anyway.
205

,

24/07/2008 14:02:57
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206

,

24/07/2008 14:05:13
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207

Alba Abú,

Edinburgh 24/07/2008 14:05:56
Why was Margaret Curran "accompanied by a piper"? Is this the last dying sting of the loyalist Labour wasp? The Labour party have had 80 years to do something positive for Scotland and the Scottish people,and they have FAILED! So! lets cut out all this nonsense with "the piper".
208

Braes of Glenmiller,

24/07/2008 14:08:55
233

It was possibly the morning piper....the Scotsman or the Herald..or the Record...because they've been tooting as hard as they can for Labour all the way through.

Bad pun...I'll get ma coat.

209

kimba,

24/07/2008 14:15:06
If you love England you will all vote snp,that will be it for brown and we in England can vote in a tory government!
210

Barry Donald Scarfe,

Brentwood 24/07/2008 14:16:08
Re:210. Scotland was given more MPs than its population merited due to its status as a nation. Also, some seats in Scotland have always had a small number of voters such as the Western Isles ect in order to keep them one seat in order to make communications easier for the MP. The Westminster parliament is still sovereign over all the territory of the United Kingdom. Holyrood is a devolved parliament with no inherent sovereignty of its own.
211

Matt there,

Somewhere 24/07/2008 14:17:29
So losing 11,000 odd votes is considered a victory by Downing Street?

Truly, we live in interesting times.
212

,

24/07/2008 14:17:35
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213

,

24/07/2008 14:18:34
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214

Barry Donald Scarfe,

Brentwood 24/07/2008 14:21:56
Re 223. No, you don't have to be a capital city to host the Olympics but normally the Olympics do have to be held in a large city with excellent transport ect. London is the only large city in the United Kingdom to have decent weather for a Summer games. Weather is one of the factors the IOC takes into account.
215

kimba,

24/07/2008 14:28:31
237. As long as Labour hold on to the seat,it will be classed as a victory!
216

The Sprucer,

24/07/2008 14:32:43

AM2 I asked you a while back to explain your reason(s) for being so over-the-top anti-SNP that to be quite frank borders on the ridiculous. You still haven't answered because politically, like the other unionisers on this blog (and The Herald for that matter) you are cowards. And I say this because to be fair you have done nothing but snipe. You lot have not provided any answers because you can't. What annoys you is that whether you like it or not the SNP are actually doing not a bad job of this. I have my reservations about them but they have played this first year far better than Labour and the Lib-Dems did together for 8 years. The way I see it is that more people are going towards Independence (not Separation - which is an appalling word) while I don't see people going in the opposite direction. If Labour had done such a marvelous job in Glasgow East then this would be a non-contest. But, we think otherwise, because the party which was in charge of that area have been a disaster and for you to endorse Margaret Curran and her ilk, you should be ashamed of yourself. You are a disgrace to this blog.
217

The Sprucer,

24/07/2008 14:34:59
AM2

If you would like to contribute something positive to this country then get off your a*** and do something about it!
218

kimba,

24/07/2008 14:38:19
243. What do you think he is trying to do?
219

The Sprucer,

24/07/2008 14:39:50
And for the rest of you cowering unionisers, wait until the next general election and then we'll see where your sympathies really lie. The problem with you lot is that you've got short memories. England won't be as forgiving with Labour as people in this country are.
220

The Sprucer,

24/07/2008 14:41:28
#244

Nothing except squeal on blogs like this. Some of us are actually trying to do something positive for our country. It takes enough of a battering as it does and still there are people (like him) always ready to give it a kicking.
221

The Sprucer,

24/07/2008 14:49:01

The saddest part about this by-election is the fact that when I read the London based newspapers they actually give a far fairer account than the Scottish based ones!
222

kimba,

24/07/2008 14:50:59
246. Are you really that stupid,unlike the blinkered trolls who follow the SNP and Salmond with a blind faith,some of us can actually see past their rhetoric and are trying to stop what will be a suicide pact for a great country.
223

kimba,

24/07/2008 14:55:22
250. That does not make it so, come out of your dream world!
224

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 24/07/2008 14:58:06
236/250
'The people' are sovereign - and that sovereignty flows through institutions, like parliaments and monarchs. Therefore, the so-called sovereignty of parliaments (and monarchs) is derivative.
And in a country with calvinist roots like Scotland, you can bet that the Scottish people are more soveriegn than others - it's a question of tradition. 236 - try getting any politician in the UK to say that the Scottish people are not sovereign - you never hear that.
225

Hole who votes for the SNP.,

24/07/2008 15:01:05
Here is a sensible blog by a typical SNP voter.

http://no2idscotland.blogspot.com/2007/10/suport-no2id-freedom-out-traitors.html

It's really intelligent and thought provoking piece, our members are bright guys who are really mature and knowledgeable.
226

kimba,

24/07/2008 15:02:28
252. Would you like to put a small wager on that,think i know just the politician!
227

The Sprucer,

24/07/2008 15:03:49

#246

No I'm not stupid Kimba and you obviously didn't read my post carefully anough! But what have the Labour party, The Tories and The Liberal Democrats been doing to this country for the past 300 years? Answers on a postcard please.
228

Number 6,

24/07/2008 15:05:55
Kimba #241 Correct me if i'm wrong, but are you not an englander living in Englandshire? What possible influence could you have on the SNP.

Normally you are on here wittering on about the English Democrats. A seperatist party if ever I saw one. Still not registering on the political map I see.
229

The Sprucer,

24/07/2008 15:09:59

Your alleged Calman Commission is supposed to be coming up with answers regarding enhancing devolution but what those answers will be I'll be interested to know. In fact I would hazard a guess to say that they actually won't come up with anything. Like I wrote in my other email we shall see how committed you are to your union when Labour gets thrashed at the next general election. If Middle England decides blue then we get blue. If Middle England decides red then we get red. If Middle England decides pink polka-dots then that's what we're getting.

The political lines are about to be sharpened.
230

kimba,

24/07/2008 15:10:34
255. If you think the SNP could have done better you are sadly mistaken,whether you like it or not Scotland being part of the UK has made it a stronger more viable country,if the people of Scotland ever vote for independence you are doomed.
231

The Sprucer,

24/07/2008 15:11:09

Profuse apologies, that last email should have been addressed to Kimba.
232

The Sprucer,

24/07/2008 15:15:58

#258

Where is your information to back up your argument? Scotland is (along with Nigeria) a country which is involved in the production of oil and gets nothing from it. In fact the Nigerians do receive 3.5% into their budget which is more than we get. But before we fall head-long into this argument, I can only say this: give us our independence and we'll show you how doomed we are!

As for the Union it provides us with nothing. You are obviously NOT paying attention to what's happening in the south of your own country.
233

kimba,

24/07/2008 15:16:21
256. And you are still a small minded troll wittering on about your beloved snp,now if you want a tory government please vote for them,but, the chances of scotland ever getting independence falls to zero.
What you and other SNP supporters fail to understand is Cameron is a strong unionist
234

The Sprucer,

24/07/2008 15:17:55

I've noticed that the other unionisers have run away. Cowards each and every one of them. A truly fearful lot indeed.

All men and yet, unfortunately, no testicles!
235

kimba,

24/07/2008 15:20:03
260. Not only am i paying attention,but am activelly involved,we in the North-East of England have send many delegations to speak for the North- East and have obtaineed our objectives.
236

Sanny,

24/07/2008 15:21:21
261 kimba,
What is your take on last nights TV programme on the history of North Sea Oil?

Perhaps other pro-Unionists might also like to contribute?
237

,

24/07/2008 15:22:54
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238

The Sprucer,

24/07/2008 15:24:00

Well Kimba good luck when you finally get independence too!
239

,

24/07/2008 15:24:34
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240

Andy Stewart,

Lands End 24/07/2008 15:25:55
Is it my imagination or can I hear the rumblings of a "political earthquake" with the epicentre in Glasgow East ??

Might I be the first to congratulate John Mason on his fine victory ?
241

The Sprucer,

24/07/2008 15:26:16

Last point before I go. If Cameron is such a strong unionist then why will he insist on rectifying the West-Lothian question. The beauty of that beast is that there is only one way we can answer that.

Once the Pandora's box is open there is no closing it.
242

Traquir , Alba,

24/07/2008 15:28:35
AM2

"If you would like to contribute something positive to this country then get off your a*** and do something about it!"

kimba,
"243. What do you think he is trying to do?"

Well at moment he is on the Scotsman
Thatcher thread telling us how lucky
Scotland was to have Margaret Thatcher
as the savior of the Scottish nation-
a true patriot indeed - well a British
patriot I suppose - certainly not
a Scottish one.
243

Number 6,

Germany 24/07/2008 15:28:46
#261 Kimba, I understand you are a youngster, and it shows. A tory victory in Englandshire is the best possible hope for Scottish independence.

The people of Scotland will not want a tory, even one of Scottish decent, ruling without mandate. How can they be expected to tolerate legislation from a party they have overwhelmingly rejected.

Running into the arms of Labour would not be an option because I believe they will be wiped off most of the political map in both Englandshire and Wales.

Their only hope, their only voice, will be the SNP.
I will be popping the champagne cork once Cameron comes to power.
244

,

24/07/2008 15:29:51
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245

,

24/07/2008 15:33:37
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246

The Master,

No 4 on Nats' hate list and on the rise 24/07/2008 15:33:40
#242 The Sprucer writes: “AM2 I asked you a while back to explain your reason(s) for being so over-the-top anti-SNP that to be quite frank borders on the ridiculous”

AM2 is more than capable of speaking for himself (as we all know), but the attitude of those of us with a visceral hatred of the party has much to do with the harm which their misguided separation policy could do to Scotland if it ever came to fruition and the disbelief and anger we feel as we watch policy taking a back seat to a separation agenda which is at best supported by only about a quarter of Scots.

I am largely a non politically aligned poster and have no real gripe with any of the three mainstream parties: they have Scotland’s best interests at heart, whatever their differing agendas.
247

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 24/07/2008 15:34:25
#62 Is the poll interesting because if you add it up the total is 101%? Sounds like it was compiled by a Labour politician...
248

Number 6,

24/07/2008 15:44:39
#274 What harm would be caused by separation?

What advantages have there been, say in the last
say, 20 years to Scotland , by being in the
"Union"?
249

monkey man,

24/07/2008 15:45:28
I hope the wee Bravehearts have got their hankies at the ready for the tears of sadness that are about to flow. lol

This by-election is the litmus-test for the SNP who can't even beat the worst Labour government ever. It will also show the SNP are in permanent decline.
250

,

24/07/2008 15:52:22
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251

Bejjy,

24/07/2008 16:05:05
#278 Rim.Job1707

Ha, ha, ha, ha; hilarious. Have you ever considered a career as a stand up comedian.
252

The Master,

No 4 on the Nats' hatelist and on the rise 24/07/2008 16:07:07
#276 Number 6: what happens when your precious oil runs out? And I don’t care if this happens in 30 years time or a hundred years time, it’s going to happen!

As to the advantages of what someone like you insists on referring to as “the union”, surely even you can see that the majority of Scotland’s trade and investment is either with or comes from the rest of the UK. What sense does your costly and complicated separation policy really make when seen in that context? All in all, I’d just forget it if I were you! I don’t know how old you are, but I wouldn’t hold your breath for separation to happen in your lifetime.
253

Bejjy,

24/07/2008 16:08:06
#271 Number 6,

Englandshire!, is that anywhere near Scotlandshire?
254

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 24/07/2008 16:13:54
The notion that Labour and the Tories have "differing agendas" is hilarious.
255

Saruman,

say no to the one issue fanatic in Glasgow East 24/07/2008 16:14:11
#278 RimJob1707: you’re a spoof Nat, aren’t you! Bremner, Bird & Fortune eat your hearts out!
256

monkey man,

24/07/2008 16:16:06
# 278

There is no Scottish Government, not now, not ever. No-one recognises the joke that is Holyrood even as a legitimate Parliament either.

Westminster is the only real Parliament in these islands. The wee Bravehearts should head back to the gloamin'...the rebellion is over.! lol
257

Saruman,

say no to the one issue fanatic in Glasgow East 24/07/2008 16:16:17
#283 "NE Somerset Vicar": there are only so many ways to run a modern economy, if that's what you're alluding to.
258

,

24/07/2008 16:18:05
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259

Cuthulan,

approx.12,000miles from Earth's core 24/07/2008 16:21:56
Unionists
Sccotland ,with or without oil would survived very well. Just like the Czech Rep. or Slovenia or Slovakia or Latvia or Estonia or Lithuania or Ukraine or Bosnia or etc.. etc.. etc.. .There are many examples of recently independant nations and I dare you to find "1" that would say it was a bad idea and we should return to "depedance". Also why hasn't Holland and Austria given up thier soverignty to Germany or Finland and the Baltic nations and Ukraine given up thier soverignty to Russia ,if unionism is such a good idea?
Also why doesn't the UK just give up Westminster and be run by the European UNION ,as we would then be the N0.1 economic force on the planet? Isn't that what union is all about?
UNION for Scotland equals
unemployment as business rates are set for the South East of England. This also drives business south. It creates a population exodus ,last one to leave the union please turn the lights off.
260

,

24/07/2008 16:28:37
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261

JCA REID,

Annan 24/07/2008 16:32:20
In all probability Labour will hold on & win the Glasgow East By-election. They are a bunch of hypocrites. The do NOT call themselves The Labour Party, or New Labour, but "SCOTTISH Labour. Then they have a piper leading them as they go canvassing. They talk about welfare reforms, not about wealth creation to pay for any reforms & compare anyone wanting independence for Scotland as a rabid nationalist who is an Adolf Hiltler incarnate. Let us look at the some facts on that issue: Hitler was in fact an AUSTRIAN who wanted a Greater Germany with a colonial Empire across Europe!
Look what the Union has brought. In 300years of existence over 500years of war, based on slavery & subjugation across the world. Hardly democratic was it. So basically we can call Scottish Unionists as imperialistic war-mongers, loyal lieutenants of the school playground bully.
All Labour has done is create jobs for themselves out of the public purse & the need the deprived masses to vote for them, with the mantra of "jam tomorrow for you lot", (whenever).
This is from a grandson of a man who helped to get Labour going in Scotland in the 1920's-30's.
262

The Master,

No 4 on the Nats' hatelist and on the rise 24/07/2008 16:42:59
#282 Hawkeye: I’m a big horror movie fan, so you’re right about my taste for melodrama. I see where you’re coming from, but am doubtful if the upheaval and uncertainty which separation will inevitably bring for many years is the panacea you seek.

Areas of extreme deprivation exist in many European countries (perhaps with the exception of Luxembourg or somewhere like Switzerland) and I think may voters are extremely sceptical about the Nats’ insistence that separation will make a difference in Scotland. The SNP have been playing down their separation agenda as an issue in Glasgow East, and that about says it all as far as I’m concerned.
263

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 16:47:06
182
The one with a blonde hairdo and teeth.
264

Barry Donald Scarfe,

Brentwood 24/07/2008 16:51:36
Re:271. Where is Englandshire? How do you know Cameron is going to come to power? Admittedly, it does look bad for Labour at the moment but two years is a very longtime in politics. For one thing, the EU issue could well blow-up (ie the Lisbon Treaty ect) in those two years and if the Tories do have any principles they will start arguing about it. If I were Gordon Brown, I would institute electoral reform. This doesn't have to be PR it could be the Alternative Vote or Alternative Vote Plus. Then I reckon the smirk on Cameron's face would be nowhere to be seen!
265

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 16:53:13
293
"No 4 on the Nats' hatelist and on the rise."

Are you really?

Wow.

Who's no 3?
266

Chum of Boris,

Henley on Thames 24/07/2008 16:53:35
Alex Salmond has visited Glasgow East 11 times in the past 2 weeks. I hope the SNP is paying for this and not the British taxpayer.
267

subrosa,

24/07/2008 16:55:34
# 274 'AM2 is more than capable of speaking for himself (as we all know), but the attitude of those of us with a visceral hatred of the party has much to do with the harm which their misguided separation policy could do to Scotland if it ever came to fruition and the disbelief and anger we feel as we watch policy taking a back seat to a separation agenda which is at best supported by only about a quarter of Scots.

I am largely a non politically aligned poster and have no real gripe with any of the three mainstream parties: they have Scotland’s best interests at heart, whatever their differing agendas.'

Obviously you've never lived in a small independent country for any length of time. I wonder if your attitude would change if you had done so.

Talk of visceral hatred of anything, anyone does not damage what is so hated, it just damages the person who hates.

Healthy and informed debate is the way forward and the ability to open one's mind to the opinion of others. We're not all right every time!


268

monkey man,

24/07/2008 16:56:21
I just can't wait to see wee Fatty Salmond crying tonight. ! lol

269

Shredder,

24/07/2008 16:58:24
#288 Cuthulan: comparing Scotland to the Czech Republic, Slovenia etc is not to compare like with like, so your post is spurious. This is in particular because none of the countries you mention is so dependent on a market within a wider whole (in the manner of Scotland within the UK).

#299 monkey man: you'd think Alex would have learnt the lessons of Kinnock's misplaced triumphalism before the '92 election.
270

kimba,

24/07/2008 16:59:14
297. Of course the British tax payer is paying, the only money Salmond gets is from Westminster.
271

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 17:02:41
300
And the Czech Republic doesn't trade with Slovakia?
272

GM,

24/07/2008 17:04:47
@299

and why would he be crying?

There are 2 posisble outcomes today

1 - Labout win with majority hugely reduced (probably to less than 1000)

2 - SNP win with slim majority


The only tears, either way, will be of joy that Labour have fallen further into the political desert.

There will be sleepless nights for many a labour MP with less of a majority than existed in Glasgow East
273

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 17:05:47
298
What happened there? Another troll being deleted?
274

inkster,

24/07/2008 17:05:58
Every vote gained by the SNP is a victory.

Independence is like a ratchet. It goes round but it cannot be reversed.

Freedom, as will be shown tonight, is in the air, and in two years Scotland will be eligible to join the other ex nations of the British Empire

I thought for a while that the unionist posters may have been a control group orchestrated by some UK Government agency but I can see that no such operation is taking place and and they are bitter people stunned by events.







275

Utterly Ashamed,

24/07/2008 17:06:21
#297- Monkey Man(appropriate....) Like when you loose your bet at 12 tonight and get that all over body wax as forfeit.......
276

ReverinBlueJeans,

Ayrshire 24/07/2008 17:09:52
Having known John Mason since Uni days in Glasgow, I am disappointed the article gave no space for his comments.

While it has been argued in comments above that he has "one reason" to be in politics, I suspect there is more to him than that.

Unless he has changed drastically since I met him a few years ago, he is a person who is faithful, honest and has a care and concern for social and moral issues in his area, Scotland and the world (even our neighbours south of the border)

I'm not into Party Politics, I tend to consider the individual candidates. I don't know any of the others, but I would not hesitate to commend John as worthy of consideration.

You can see I write lots of references.

Anyway, I hope that those who can will vote and get the candidate they deserve
277

kimba,

24/07/2008 17:11:20
Don't think your post was for me,but seeing you have laid down the challenge hay ho! When England elects a tory government as it surely will,salmond and co will find little to laugh at,about time his arrogance was curtailed.
278

,

24/07/2008 17:11:58
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279

kimba,

24/07/2008 17:17:53
309. JEEZ, THE UNION IS THIS,THE UNION IS THAT.
The union gave you an Education,put food on the table and cloths on your back,gave you medical care and employment,and gave you the right to write the cr-p that you do!
280

radge dug,

Dùn Eideann 24/07/2008 17:19:12
I wonder if Labour had the courage to campaign under the Union Jack? Funny how for all their talk of being 'Unionist' they never fly the flag here???!

Another vote for the Labour monkey?
281

radge dug,

24/07/2008 17:20:24
#310 - As a Unionist, you should know that under the Act of Union, Scottish education has always been independent. But of course, it couldn't work... could it?
282

aedis,

Glasgow 24/07/2008 17:21:49
I see the Birmingham Post is reporting that the talk around Westminster is that the SNP are in front of Labour so far.

tinyurl.com/6fgxlg

Must be the results of Labour's own exit polling.

Early days, but it seems the SNP are getting their vote out.
283

Cuthulan,

approx.12,000miles from Earth's core 24/07/2008 17:22:06
#298 Shredder
"comparing Scotland to the Czech Republic, Slovenia etc is not to compare like with like, so your post is spurious. This is in particular because none of the countries you mention is so dependent on a market within a wider whole (in the manner of Scotland within the UK)."
You a waffling b*ll*cks mate! Just answer the question!
I am comparing recently independant European nations with Scotland ,what is SPURIOUS about that . You could be right neither Czech Rep or Slovakia pump oil! But they still would not give up thier indepandance could you name me 1 GO ON JUST ONE recently independant country that would go back to depandance?
Exactly what major "market" effects do you think will happen . Scotland and England will continue to trade as before after independance ,why not , we are still in the EU ? If we want to be.Where do you get your economic information from the Labour and Unionist party?
You are waffling b*ll*cks ...Doomed I say ,Doomed , Aye we're all doomed ........ Aye sure
284

monkey man,

24/07/2008 17:24:16
The next election should be a referendum to abolish Holyrood and return to our natural home at Westminster. The majority of real Scots want this Executive scrapped asap.
285

,

24/07/2008 17:26:29
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286

Stuntman Mike,

24/07/2008 17:29:33
#301 GM: “There will be sleepless nights for many a labour MP with less of a majority than existed in Glasgow East”

But this is a byelection. There are many examples of Labour majorities being cut by the SNP or the Nats winning by a narrow majority, only for the seats to return to Labour at subsequent general elections. Govan, Hamilton etc.
287

Utterly Ashamed,

24/07/2008 17:30:43
#310 - You get more and more laughable each time I log in!

Hows the English democrats doing? England for the English?

But Scotland can't be for the Scottish.....

You wonder why we want to break away from the double standards........

288

,

24/07/2008 17:33:05
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289

,

24/07/2008 17:35:28
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290

Cuthulan,

approx.12,000miles from Earth's core 24/07/2008 17:36:35
#317
Would this be the same James Callaghans government that gave Scotland the devolution vote,and when they voted for devolution they ignored it?
Perhaps if he had respected the views of the Scottish people he would not have had to call the '79 election and avoided 18years of political wilderness only to return as the NEW Tory Lite party. Check thier manifestos 99.7% IDENTICAL in tax and spending! Even Andrew Neil spotted that one!
Callaghan has nobody to blame but himself and his labour party for the advent of Thatcherism and the DEATH of the REAL Labour party!
291

Regal Bankie,

Clydebank 24/07/2008 17:42:37
Why does it say 360 odd comments at the top of the page and there are only about 320 shown? I assume that it's removed posts but it doesn't make it easy when contributors are referring to previous #'s which don't tie up.
292

,

24/07/2008 17:46:29
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293

westview,

Cheering on the SNP!!! and now for something diffe 24/07/2008 17:47:00
After this election will the powers that be change the boundary of Glasgow East? They did this in my area when the SNP booted out the entrenched Labourites. Any bets on joining up Glasgow East with Edinburgh West? This could help the declining sales of the Scotsman!
294

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 17:47:14
321
Margaret might be.

But probably not with you.
295

Traquir , Alba,

24/07/2008 17:48:56
I see my AM2 Criticism has been removed without reason.
Any Unionist care to admit to having it removed and
have a reason to why - the posting is neither offensive
nor does it contain any false information. The article
itself refers to Thatcher so the post is also
on topic. ?

62 AM2,Scotland

"Can anyone give me a glimpse of how Scotland would now be had Thatcher not rolled back the years of unsustainable socialist malaise?"

Unfortunately Scotland was never given the opportunity
to apply her own solutions and of course I am sure
that you like most Unionists have such a low
view of Scotland that your opinion is that had
Scotland governed herself then it would be have been
an absolute disaster.

I am sure that Scotland would have used her
Oil resources (had we know about the scale of
them - see McCrone treachery tinyurl.com/3sdrdg)
much differently from Margaret Thatcher

"But of course Scottish oil was not used to benefit the working classes in the 80s, but to finance the destruction of organised labour and fund tax cuts for the wealthy. There is no doubt that the Thatcher governments depended on oil revenues to pay the cost of mass unemployment. Without the £250 billion that was pumped out between 1975 and 2005, the UK would have been an economic basket case."

see - tinyurl.com/63onqx

You AM2 epitomize the Unionist cringe and the
absolute condescending attitude towards Scotland.
In your view you can't even imagine Scotland
having the capability to govern herself at least
as well or horror of horror even better than
England could do the job. No instead an imposed
deeply unpopular government was just what
Scotland needed - indeed as Thatcher said

"we English who are marvellous people are really
very generous to Scotland"

see - tinyurl.com/4lowk7

Clearly we Scots should be first in line at
her State Funeral giving our heartfelt thanks
that England was so generous in governing
Scotland through the Thatcher era when we
296

Traquir , Alba,

24/07/2008 17:49:20
cont.

Clearly we Scots should be first in line at
her State Funeral giving our heartfelt thanks
that England was so generous in governing
Scotland through the Thatcher era when we were
obviously so incapable of doing anything
better ourselves. Absolutely pathetic.

P.S. AM2 since you live in Glasgow why are
you not regaling us with stories of your
personal canvassing on the streets of
Glasgow East ?
297

Utterly Ashamed,

24/07/2008 17:51:23
THOUGH MUST NOT BE CRITICAL OF AM2 hisfragile ego cannot take it.
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Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 18:01:31
333
How is your sphincter these days?

Relaxed?

Or prolapsed?
303

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24/07/2008 18:02:34
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24/07/2008 18:04:17
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Scottish Toryboy is back,

24/07/2008 18:06:16
#328 Traquir: I had your post removed, because it smacks of mindless abuse from an entrenched Nationalist: say no more!
307

PointOf View,

Edinburgh Stirling bridge. 24/07/2008 18:06:55
Well Well, what happened to our comments last night,,, site suspended i believe. The responses to the article must have been too SNP pro.
Next campaign surely must be to convince Scotland the Scotsman in a ConLiebour unionist tool and as such don’t buy and drive them either south where they belong or into the gutter beside the rest of the gutter press.
As for Glasgow, It’s now or never and if most vote,,, the wrong way,,, nothing will change their beliefs so be it they're on their own. I mean for G***ds sake what has Liebourgh done for them!!!
308

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 18:07:05
337
Like that?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/images/olympics_1908_boxer.jpg
309

Braes of Glenmiller,

Mystified 24/07/2008 18:09:06
Silly!!!!

Labour used to be the face of THE UNIONS who were all internationalist and anti capitalist.

The Tories were/are the Conservative and UNIONIST party of Great Britain and stood for the interests of big business.

Now both parties are UNIONISTS and both stand for the advancement of big businesses and open contempt and disregard for ordinary working people and their aspirations.

Both now ignore UNIONS.

Both parties do not want Scotland to go its own way because the Tories would hate to lose any part of the faded empire (negotiating a merger with the Ulster Unionists right now) and Labour would lose a large number of MPs.

Both can go and get lost.

It's time the people of Scotland had political parties that represented their interests.

Right now we have the SNP. Maybe in the future there may arise credible left and right wing parties with Scottish policies but today there is inly one vote for Scotland.

Make change happen.
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24/07/2008 18:10:13
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subrosa,

24/07/2008 18:13:14
# 297

There will be no crying from the SNP. Just delight. To think that only just over a year ago an SNP canvasser wouldn't have dared visit Glasgow east as they were just abused...
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24/07/2008 18:14:18
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An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 24/07/2008 18:14:30
RS Gardener 1707 (Labour Troll)

I am impressed at your very mature interest in unusual sexual practices. You seem very clued up on the different ways to play with your chocolate star fish.

I though Labour supporters just talked alot of s h i t e I did not know they actually studied the source of it..

You are very mature and very convincing to everyone that you are a independence supporter.


314

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 18:14:51
338
The Choirboys?
Rottweiler polo is good too;-)
315

Traquir , Alba,

24/07/2008 18:17:10
340 Scottish Toryboy is back,

"#328 Traquir: I had your post removed, because it smacks of mindless abuse from an entrenched Nationalist: say no more!"

Well that was nice of you to at least admit it,
a higher form of etiquette than displayed by AM2.
I guess factual criticism of Thatcher and AM2 was
to much to bare for a Tory boy ? Do you have any
counter arguments or do you prefer just to
remove posts rather than debate.

Slàinte mhor
316

Scottish Toryboy is back,

24/07/2008 18:20:59
#349 Traquir: but I do debate…quite frequently, haven’t you noticed me about, with or without my notorious moniker?
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Traquir , Alba,

24/07/2008 18:28:57
350 Scottish Toryboy is back,

"#349 Traquir: but I do debate…quite frequently, haven’t you noticed me about, with or without my notorious moniker?"

Can't say I have noticed although it is
tricky keep track of some Unionist
posters who appear to like to
use multiple monikers.
I look forward to your pearls of wisdom of debate.
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24/07/2008 18:30:32
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24/07/2008 18:31:37
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Scottish Toryboy is back,

24/07/2008 18:33:43
#353: a foul mouthed individual like you is definitely not one of my monikers, old sport!
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24/07/2008 18:44:08
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Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 18:44:31
353
I don't know about being delted.
Have you ever Kippled?
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Rednose Harry,

Wallasey 24/07/2008 18:45:38
#33 and others.Quite correct but is this not typical of so many of our "representatives"?Time and time again on programs such as Question Time,Andrew Marr,The Politics Show etc we get politicians of ALL PARTIES refusing to give a simple yes/no answer even when the question and qestioner demands it.
Then they wail about people being disaffected with politics,low turnout at polling stations and so on.
If they would get their snouts out of the trough long enough they might hear what the voters are saying and learn something.
324

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 18:50:38
346
I can't remember a Wambaugh novel about a prison, he writes about what he knows;-LAPD.
325

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24/07/2008 18:54:42
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kimba,

24/07/2008 18:57:02
313. And who gave you the money so Scotland could finance schools, colleges,and uni's, yep you got it WESTMINSTER!
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kimba,

24/07/2008 19:01:06
316.Fear not, Cameron is looking at bringing Scotland back under Westminster control.
328

jacquesmac,

24/07/2008 19:01:29
#360
Dear Legsa

Do I have you in my sights, oh yes I do.

Just wait until tomorrow!

Boom Boom!
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kimba,

24/07/2008 19:02:58
362. Yes indeed,Labour will win,no doubt about that.
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Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 19:03:18
359
Your urse? Kipling has a by-product.

Exceedingly good cakes.

But I bet you don't like muffin, eh?
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tartan army 2222,

24/07/2008 19:05:49
91 AM2

I don't write things here to make me feel clever AM2, I write cos I believe them (and it helps if it contradicts you).

How can you possibly deny you are a Brit Nat? You are a Brit Nat sir. A nationalist. The very type of person you deride in posts day in day out.
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24/07/2008 19:06:39
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SECURITY,

cyber patrol 24/07/2008 19:08:29
#280 I am not being a smart errse but if you use Tiny at:http://tinyurl.com/create.php you can shorten these long urls down to just a wee thing.
So your long one becomes: http://tinyurl.com/63jknb
And also: http://tinyurl.com/62oe5n
A short one is quite often more attractive, I find it is the quality that counts!
People are more inclined to click them then.
Keep up the good work. Thanks.
Just a thought, over and out.

PS
We are at alert status, ORANGE.
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Shredder,

24/07/2008 19:09:35
#366 tartan army: this is all becoming surreal: the Nats accusing AM2 of being one of them (ie a Nat), on the basis that they find him thoroughly obnoxious.
336

kimba,

24/07/2008 19:11:05
365. Pity your glee won't last!
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24/07/2008 19:11:39
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kimba,

24/07/2008 19:14:27
Labour may not get as much support as it has in previous elections,but make no mistake,labour WILL win Glasgow East.
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The Master,

No 7 on Nats' hate list 24/07/2008 19:15:17
#372: how dare you demote me to no 7: I was no 4 as of yesterday and if you peruse my offerings of today, I'm sure you'll agree that I at least deserve to retain that position!
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Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 19:18:34
371
Err...kimba...He/it is a Unionist.Or an onanist.I get mixed up sometimes.
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24/07/2008 19:27:00
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Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 19:27:23
377
Yes.
You are very agile for your age.

I will use the shotgun next time.
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Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 24/07/2008 19:35:59
#307 is spot on.

Scotland will have a wonderful future. My children born here in Canada are dual citizens. Several of their friends too. Alol see themselves as Scots, not British. Ask an Englishman what they are. British? Of course not.

If any reader of these posts has political influence. I urge you, to figre out away that Ex pats ( Born in Scotland) can exercise their vote. In matters that affect their birth nation. Our own "straw" poll indicates 80% of we ex pats in favour of independence.

Remember there are millions of Scots overseas with direct bloodlines to their native land.

Should independence come about. The inflow of money from Scots overseas with money, and of overseas Scots witha bit of an education. Would truly stagger the pundits.



We have an Italian/Canadian living here in Vancouver that serves in government back in Italy. The Italians back in Italy and here. Appear to welcome the ties this brings.

All the best

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Nikostratos,

24/07/2008 19:36:58
#372 SECURITY,#374 RS Gardener 1707

IGNORE THE TROLLS.


DEATH TO ALL TROLLS.


IGNORE THEM TO DEATH.

KILL THE TROLLS.

(1) that's right nationalist answer to a perceived problem go out and kill someone..very nice thank you very much not sure that's in the snp manifesto but there you are incitement to murder....
(2) hardly ever post on the herald and there is only 3 or 4 people that do post (unlike the 20million yes 20 million unique users who posted on the guardian last month)

(3) there's nothing you mongs like more than shouting your gobs off you couldn't stop gossiping even if you tried...and you wont.....natter..natter..natter
346

brownlie,

24/07/2008 19:37:20
334 Paisley Pete

"Vote SNP and get David Cameron as MP!"

In a possibly vain attempt to combat your general ignorance I feel obliged to point out that David Cameron is already an MP. He is the Member of Parliament for Witney in Oxfordshire.
347

Tyrone Shoulders 2nd version,

24/07/2008 19:38:26
I criticised one post by AM2 (the nonsense at Nº2).
It was deleted. I think I told him to crawl under his stone. For this I have been banned. Pathetic. Disagree with him and WHEECH - you're zapped.

There's worse going on with the deranged clown "RS Gardener 1707". A sicko crazed unionist pretending he's a nat. It's probably Ciderman.

(_!_)

348

Tyrone Shoulders 2nd version,

24/07/2008 19:40:06
Nikostratos

If you think for one minute that RS Gardener 1707 is SNP, you're worse than daft.
349

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24/07/2008 19:43:32
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Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 19:44:01
382
Niko.
Sit down.
Take a deep breath.
Get nurse to bring you a glass of water.
Take pill.

The twenty million Guardian readers will soon go away...

Like the Scotsman ones...
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24/07/2008 19:44:27
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Nikostratos,

24/07/2008 19:44:28
appropo 382

there is more loonys per post on the Scotsman(many)......raving barking loons both side of the argument...your stricture doomed to failure here...

anyway tommorow is another day?

#385

Umm i'll take your word for it.......you better not be lying anyway goodnight........cant wait for the RESULT!
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24/07/2008 19:47:39
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Tyrone Shoulders 2nd version,

24/07/2008 19:49:30
Nikostratos

It's an idiot poster who gets his kicks this way. He's had more monikers Highland Mighty. He gets banned with them all.

Result tomorrow? I'll go for Labour with a majority of between 950 and 1250.
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Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 19:52:52
390
...at this time...

Dane do you mean you used to vote for Independence...or will in the future?

We must be told.
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SECURITY,

24/07/2008 19:59:25







ACTION STATIONS.

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN.

ATTENTION ATTENTION. The Herald forum users have mounted a very effective campaign in ignoring the trolls. This has resulted in them being ostracised and death swiftly follows. These sad cyber slaves need the oxygen of your responses as they are attention seeking social misfits who have one life only on line. Deny them the oxygen of your reaction to their agitation.

The following monikers are some of the more common ones mostly used by the same person. It has now come to our attention that these are state sponsored agent provoceteurs operating from Millbank, and finaced by MI5. The amount of data they can pull up quickly confirms this, especially the rabid paranoid AM2 call sign who has a permanent presence on here, and must by now be quite insane as he has been on duty since April 2007.


They will easily be defeated if we all just IGNORE THE TROLLS. Continue with the debate but do not respond to their lies. You will be amazed how quick and effective this is.
Make your points and debate with the non agitators.

IGNORE THESE TROLLS.

Others will spring up to fill the gaps but they are easily spotted and dealt with in the same way.


IGNORE THE TROLLS.


DEATH TO ALL TROLLS.


IGNORE THEM TO DEATH.

KILL THE TROLLS.


RS Gardener 1707
Tyrone Shoulders 2nd version
Dane Bramage SNP Insider,
Scottish 'N British
Free by '93,
Highland Mighty
Monkey man
kimba (very smelly foul mothed mong, do not approach no brain just a huge gob.)
(vacancy)
Publius
The Tin Man
Truly English
The Maltese Tranny
Janis the tranny
AM2
Ciderman (brain dead garbage.)
Side show bob
Phil1
The Answer
Nikostratos. (Frontal lobotomy.)
Media1 (Village Idiot.)
Gordon The Chairman.
Dennis from Northern Isles.
Frank MD
Elizabeth the Ist.
Rufus T. Firefly
fairfax
sm753
British Pride
Boudica
Langtonian,
The Master. (Windae licker.)
Grahmski,
L for L,
Galactic
Cannabal
RBNR.

KILL TH
358

Hamish Scott,

24/07/2008 20:00:37
#381
"If any reader of these posts has political influence. I urge you, to figre out away that Ex pats ( Born in Scotland) can exercise their vote. In matters that affect their birth nation. Our own "straw" poll indicates 80% of we ex pats in favour of independence."

Dekester - I'm afraid the answer is in your post. Funding the SNP from outside Scotland is restricted. As I understand it the same restrictions do not apply to Northern Ireland. Presumably because London wants to get shot of NI but hold onto Scotland?
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24/07/2008 20:04:35
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SECURITY,

24/07/2008 20:08:03
#397....STANDBY


I need take a closer look at these readings: I think there's something wrong with the matter control facility

The facility appears to be functioning normally . Perhaps the fore transient bay, beside the tactical transwarp platform. If we use the engineering destruct cell to align it with the inertial containment storage, then... Then by modifying this fore matter sensor, we can make it work in conjunction with the unit's reserve bank. That would... increase the efficiency of the deuterium transient display by 18 percent. Thus reducing the load on the tertiary containment chamber.



INCOMING.... ACTION STATIONS....
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24/07/2008 20:14:02
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SECURITY,

24/07/2008 20:14:06
Tha alt aig Fisher air a bhith seinn mar gum biodh e ri do thaobh san rùm, agus se deagh chluichdeadair gitàir a th' ann, le dòigh-cluichd a tha cur ris an t-seinn aige 's a' leigeil le faclan nan òran tighinn troimhe gu soilleir. Tha gaol de dh'iomadh seòrsa agus maise nàdair pailt mar chuspairean sna h-òrain ùra, mar a chluinnear ann an Ontario Dust agus Bonnie Border Lass. Ged nach biodh air ach na 11 òrain a chlàradh o chionn ghoirid, se deagh CD a bhiodh ann, ach tha mòran de dheagh cheòl am measg nan seann chlàraidhean cuideachd, mar eisimpleir an dòigh san do chlàradh The Winter It Is Past le Burns, le nòs-ciuil an 18mh linn follaiseach san taic.
363

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 20:14:30
That effing tertiary containment chamber.

Again.

364

SECURITY,

24/07/2008 20:15:09
CONTINUM MALFUNCTION ........................................................................................................................................................................................
365

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24/07/2008 20:16:04
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Hamish Scott,

24/07/2008 20:19:36
#400
Aye right, you can't publish exit polls while the voting is still on.
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Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 20:20:50
400#
eddie, did you use 400 deliberately?

It seems...staged...Somehow.

Dane, the whole point is independence, is it not?
Disnae matter a f**k who gets us there.
368

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24/07/2008 20:21:09
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SECURITY,

24/07/2008 20:23:13
Sorry, old turret syndrome kicked in there.

Still trying to repair the matter deflectors, took a big hit but the shields did there job.

370

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 20:23:48
410
Coke?
371

Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 20:27:16
411
Turret syndrome? Where you go round and round saying the same things over and over again?

Are you AM2?
372

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24/07/2008 20:27:36
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SECURITY,

24/07/2008 20:29:39
Decreasing the fluctuation of the torpedo launcher and randomising the confinement field of the slipstream drive. Only then do we modulate the proccessing array of the malfunctioning Heuseberg compensator which will allow us to configure the fluctuation of the malfunctioning electro-magnetic pulse, then the phase variance of the malfunctioning bioneural gelpack can be decreased.

Standby.


374

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24/07/2008 20:32:32
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SECURITY,

24/07/2008 20:33:41
#418, AUTHENTICATE AUTHENTICATE
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24/07/2008 20:35:00
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Hamish Scott,

24/07/2008 20:35:41
I give up, this is too much like the online forum for the Carstairs inhouse journal.
378

Christina, Aberdeen,

24/07/2008 20:37:59
I wonder why anybody should believe people like AM2 and Nikostratos who stand up for and defend the corruption that is the Scottish Labour Party.
379

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24/07/2008 20:38:30
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SECURITY,

24/07/2008 20:41:39
TAKE COVER INCOMING INCOMING BOOM BOOM RUMBLE RUMBLE HERE IT COMES
























tinyurl.com/6fgxlg





381

SECURITY,

24/07/2008 20:42:52
#424. INSIDE JOB IS IT :)
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24/07/2008 20:44:53
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unbiased,

Erehwon o Elddim 24/07/2008 20:52:52
TROLL ALERT! This is a serious by-election and the idiots are out with their sexual innuendo and childish toilet humour - nuff said!
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Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 20:56:29
429
You have a very low self esteem.

What you need is a good woman:-)
385

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24/07/2008 20:57:09
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Conan the Librarian™,

24/07/2008 21:00:31
430
Evening Col.

Staying up tonight?
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24/07/2008 21:07:36
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TerryH,

England 24/07/2008 21:29:14
Has anyone heard about the latest exit polls?

This is important!

I hope the SNP aren't all opinion polls and no Xs.

I'm sure you're not, come on Salmond, England expects and all that...!
397

indune1,

Canada 24/07/2008 21:30:22
414 - Conan - yes that would be Turret syndrome but not only circular, repetitive argumentation but sometimes delivered in a rapid fire and totally undecipherable manner as well.

Evening Conan! Rather than sifting through the threads, do you know what time the results are expected? Any exit polls?
398

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24/07/2008 21:31:44
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Jock MacTamson 2,

Scotland 24/07/2008 21:49:09
Just reading through the posts of the Trolls.

How much fecking time to these people have available to waste posting Unionist/Homoerotic nonsense?

I hope the Scotsman capure their IP addresses for breach of the T&C, which they can do easily for all posters, report them to their ISP and get them disconnected or at the least a written warning.

I get the feeling the Unionist Trolls do not grasp how easy it is to ID them in the real world or for how long the foot print of the transaction can be traced.

Or their computers accessed remotely.

420

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24/07/2008 21:50:22
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24/07/2008 21:50:52
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Yankee girl,

California 24/07/2008 21:51:29
"there are people who are p***** off about fuel and the cost of living..."

Eh, sounds like us over here!
423

TerryH,

England 24/07/2008 21:52:14
Polls close in 5 minutes. I'm off to see the tele.

Come on SNP! Please don't let England's only chance slip away!
424

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24/07/2008 21:53:28
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 22:00:05
Ayrshire Scot­­™

Have just been reminded of your existence. You misjudge my motives. HPB.
430

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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 22:06:15
#363 tartan army 2222

Why do you imagine you know my mind better than I know it myself?

Please reread #88. You won't agree with it. But it is an honest reflection of my thinking on this issue. Once you've absorbed that, please feel free to engage with me about it. But it's a waste both our time if you just deny that what I've said about myself is true.

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24/07/2008 22:08:01
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 22:09:29
#482 Ayrshire Scot­­™

The shop assistant said that you can exchange them for a pink sombrero.
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24/07/2008 22:10:11
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 22:10:31
#485 steve52

Is that a wind-up? As far as I'm concerned, the BNP are despicable.
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24/07/2008 22:11:16
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indune1,

Canada 24/07/2008 22:12:00

473 - Col!! How good to see you back in the ranks!!

I did notice that your decoder ring had been reactivated.

Is there any truth to the rumour that McVeeShee government agents were threatening voters with home visits by Bendy Wendy if they didn't vote Labour?

Hulloo Ayrshire Laddie and where TF is Conan? Meths must be damaged beyond repair in the plunge pool.
440

Gentleman,

USA 24/07/2008 22:12:54
Given the lamentable state of the whole country after 11 years of a Labour Government and a year of a subPrime Minister, what I want to know is why on earth would someone be so insane to keep voting for Labour?
Go SNP, go anyone but Labour.
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24/07/2008 22:14:29
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Yankee girl,

CA 24/07/2008 22:14:42
Evenin' Ayrshire, Colonel and Dunnie!!

Did the polls close yet?
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24/07/2008 22:15:02
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24/07/2008 22:15:38
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 22:15:39
#487 Ayrshire Scot­­™

Let's not start this again. Appreciation of state and supra-state unions (UK, EU, UN etc) doesn't constitute "British nationalism". And there's more to the issue than living standards. Re "intellectually fascist", that's beneath you.
446

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24/07/2008 22:23:03
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wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 24/07/2008 22:23:09
I sincerely hope the party of lying and legalised corruption and sleaze gets trashed but inside my tiny brain; I feel they'll be the winners.
Hoping I am proved wrong; although I firmly believe in the long run, it will not make one iota off difference really, to our proud Scottish nation.
448

indune1,

Canada 24/07/2008 22:25:47
494 - Ayrshire laddie - assure me that your last word was not a typo.
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24/07/2008 22:26:12
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 22:28:58
#499 indune1

Dodgy character that he is, I suspect he meant "court".
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24/07/2008 22:29:42
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24/07/2008 22:30:23
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24/07/2008 22:33:56
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24/07/2008 22:35:40
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 22:39:38
#504 Ayrshire Scot­­™

Look at #498: "our proud Scottish nation". Do you consider that to be jingoism?

If not, there is no basis for your comments.

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24/07/2008 22:40:44
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 22:42:59
Not in the least irrelevant. You accused me of being "jingoistic" because I expressed an appreciation for the ideal of yielding and pooling sovereignty, in order to work for the greater good - as per the structure of the UK and EU, in particular.

It's not jingoism. It's not nationalism. It's the antithesis of those.
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24/07/2008 22:43:02
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 22:45:10
#509 Ayrshire Scot­­™

Total irrelevance. I haven't said those things.
460

European Scot,

24/07/2008 22:48:47
AM2

Amazing to see you out of the traps so quickly earlier today. A first, in three different 'races' and a second place in the fourth, that was quite a feat.
Some might think it was almost obsessive, others maybe a tad too 'professional'.
Still, it's nice to see you posting your 'politically non-aligned' opinions once again !

Visiting the definition of country, and this is my last comment on the subject, so
I won't bombard you with lots of sites AM2, just this one.
It's called the 'Geography Site'.
As it points out, there are are different definitions for what constitutes a country, it often depends upon a particular political point of view.
It also refers to the UK Government web site, which it states does not appear to view England and Scotland as separate countries in an international sense.
There is also a list showing the most generally accepted countries in the World.

The UK is there.
Andorra is there.
Try finding Scotland and England.

You would have thought that one of the benefits of being in such a 'strong Union', with all the UK's international connections, that Scotland, as a 'partner', might at least have been on this list.
There's no doubt, that the sooner Scotland becomes Independent, the sooner the rest of the World will 'recognise' her, and then she will definitely be on such 'generally accepted' lists.

http://www.geography-site.co.uk/pages/countries/country_definition.html
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24/07/2008 22:50:50
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24/07/2008 22:55:13
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 22:56:48
#511 European Scot

That page beggars belief. Scotland isn't an independent state, so of course the Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States, the constitutive theory of statehood and the declarative theory of statehood won't apply.

But Scotland is a country, by any reasonable definition.



1.


but it is, of course, a country. Just because

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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 22:57:17
Oops. Ignore "1." and below.
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24/07/2008 23:01:36
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European Scot,

24/07/2008 23:03:44
514 AM2

Oops also, try

http://www.geography-site.co.uk/pages/countries/howmany.html
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 23:07:12
#512 #513 Ayrshire Scot­­™

The relevance is that you should accuse me of jingoism for posting an attempt to explain why I value closer union at the sub- and supra-state level, but seemingly not have any such qualms about the "our proud Scottish nation" comment.

But you are now misrepresenting what I said. You are also contriving unanswerable rhetoric - "blind devotion", "fundamentalist and propagandist" etc.

I am none of those. I appreciate the sharing of sovereignty. I believe that Scotland's status and potential is enhanced by being part of a strong Briain. I generally see secession as indicative of human failure. Those are practical and valuational judgements. Nationalism doesn't enter into it.
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 23:08:57
#516 Ayrshire Scot­­™

It's clearly close. Whatever way it tips, Gordon Brown is a lame duck. I've been saying for some time that he should resign.
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Nevsky,

Moscow 24/07/2008 23:14:27
AM2:

I am sure Gordon pays great attention to what you say.
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Rufus T. Firefly,

24/07/2008 23:17:31
Nevsky:

I am sure Alex pays great attention to what you say.

(an equally pointless post)
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Nevsky,

Moscow 24/07/2008 23:18:01
Perhaps you could ask any independent European country if they agree with you political philosophy (cough) that:

'I generally see secession as indicative of human failure'

What absolute rubbish you write sometimes..it's laughable.
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 23:19:20
Nevsky

About as much as Dmitry Medvedev pays to you. ;-)
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24/07/2008 23:24:23
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 23:25:27
#522 Nevsky

I know of 20+ secessionist movements across Europe.

If they were all successful - and of course I realise they won't be - but for talking's sake if they were, then Britain, France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Finland, Belgium and Austria would fragment.

Do you think that would be a positive or retrograde move? Do you think it would indicate a co-operative spirit or an inability to resolve differences?
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 23:26:18
#524 Ayrshire Scot

I didn't say that. Your memory is faulty.
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24/07/2008 23:26:36
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 23:30:35
#529 Hawkeye

You ask me: "Why can't you admit that Scotland is a country..."?

But I said in #514 that "Scotland is a country, by any reasonable definition".

Please stop misrepresenting me.
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Rufus T. Firefly,

24/07/2008 23:31:28
#527 Yes.
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Rufus T. Firefly,

24/07/2008 23:35:44
Alex Salmond Just cant help himself can he? Today he presented the Barca president with a "special Tartan".

Will he do this with every european team to play here this season?
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Nevsky,

Moscow 24/07/2008 23:35:46
525:

I can only point to all the countries that HAVE taken their independence and not one would hand it back.

This is the whole point, it works and you can point to not one country in Europe where it has failed.

Do you really think Ireland would be happier being part of the UK and they made a mistake or Norway or Estonia or Latvia or Lithuania?

The answer and well you know it is no.

I fail to see exactly WHY you are against this when there are so many successful examples...it makes no sense whatsoever to me.
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Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 24/07/2008 23:35:49

I feel sorry for the people of Glasgow East nobody ever cared about them and suddenly invaded by politicians .

If Labour cared about them where were they for the last 50 odd years
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24/07/2008 23:36:01
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 23:39:21
#532 Hawkeye

Your comparisons are invalid. For example, the Soviet armies occupied and annexed Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia. We're not in *quite* the same situation here!

Irish independence arose from human failure - yes. Mostly, in my opinion, on the British side, which failed to accord sufficient respect to Irish aspirations. They were different times.

Your "language of the conqueror, the imperialist" allegation reveals only your own mindset. It bears no relation to anything I think and only serves to inhibit debate.
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Nevsky,

Moscow 24/07/2008 23:39:23
533:

Better than the taxpayer presenting David Marshall with £500,000 though isn't it really?

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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 23:40:43
#536 Ayrshire Scot

I did not say that. I can recall exactly what I said.

Would you care to retract your allegation or do you need me to remind you first?
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Nevsky,

Moscow 24/07/2008 23:41:58
Whether or not armies annexed or conquered is immaterial as the point is that independence works AM2.
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Rufus T. Firefly,

24/07/2008 23:42:33
538 Two events worthy of comparison.
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Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 24/07/2008 23:42:34
AM2 530

You misrepresent the countries of Scotland AND England by comparing them to regions and principalities around Europe.
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24/07/2008 23:43:47
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 23:44:52
#540 Hawkeye

That was a list of European secessionist movements. I didn't include England because even if the UK exploded into its four constituent countries, England - with a 50m population - would be the successor state to the UK. I said nothing about which entries on the list qualify as nations and which are more properly described as principalities, states, countries, regions or whatever. You really are off on a wild tangent here.
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 23:45:31
#545 Andrew BOD

See #547.
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 23:46:44
Typo: "states, countries, regions" should read "states, counties, regions".
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Nevsky,

Moscow 24/07/2008 23:48:08
544:

You are right as one cost us rather more than the other ;-)
You are a petty minded idiot for whining about Alex Salmond giving a bit of tartan...i mean why even let such things upset you so much?

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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 23:53:37
#552 Blimp

I laughed myself almost to the point of pain at your Flanders & Swann clip. Thanks for that. But what did you mean by "quite the reverse" in post #39?

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Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 24/07/2008 23:56:14
AM2 548

THIS IS WHAT YOU WROTE IN REPLY TO HAWKEYE THE NOO JUST YESTERDAY:

#154 Hawkeye

So do you think independence for nations/regions which have a strong sense of their own national unity is "normal"?

All of the following have secessionist movements:

• Åland (Finland)
• Alsace (France)
• Andalusia (Spain)
• Basque Country (Spain)
• Bavaria (Germany)
• Catalonia (Spain)
• Cornwall (Britain)
• Corsica (France)
• Faroes (Denmark)
• Flanders (Belgium)
• Friesland (Netherlands)
• Galicia (Spain)
• Greenland (Denmark)
• Lapland (Finland)
• Navarre (Spain)
• Padania (Italy)
• Sardinia (Italy)
• Salzburg (Austria)
• Savoy (France)
• Saxony (Germany)
• Scotland (Britain)
• Thuringia (Germany)
• Wales (Britain)
• Wallonia (Belgium).

Do you think they should all be "normal", i.e. independent?

SCOTLAND IS A COUNTRY AND A NATION. THE REST ARE REGIONS OR PRINCIPALITIES - EVEN WALES.

YOU HAVE MISREPRESENTED SCOTLAND.
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Rufus T. Firefly,

24/07/2008 23:57:04
551 Yes I am really upset.
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 24/07/2008 23:57:47
#552 Hawkeye

You're forcing me to repeat myself. Listing places which have independence movements is not to say that they all have equal status.
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24/07/2008 23:59:35
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 25/07/2008 00:00:19
#558 Andrew BOD

Thank you. That demonstrates what I've been saying.

I listed those places, saying that "all of the following have secessionist movements".

I referred to them as "nations/regions". Some are nations (eg. Scotland). Some are regions (eg Padania).

However, I do not accept that they are all regions except Scotland.
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25/07/2008 00:01:08
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 25/07/2008 00:01:44
#558 Andrew BOD

Nations within other nations are not uncommon across Europe. Examples...

• Salzburg, part of Austria, is a nation. It was independent until 1803.
• Bavaria was incorporated into the German Empire only in 1871.
• Basque Country (Euskadi) has nation status in the Spanish constitution.
• Brittany was independent for over 700 years before joining France.
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25/07/2008 00:02:07
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 25/07/2008 00:03:56
#564 Ayrshire Scot

I did not say that, and you are twisting my words. Are you forcing me to say that repeatedly in the hope that it will start to look lame?
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25/07/2008 00:05:20
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Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 25/07/2008 00:05:32
58 continued...

In listing Scotland with these regions and principalities, you give away your true feelings about the status of our nation.
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 25/07/2008 00:05:47
#562 Ayrshire Scot

You have crossed the line of decency in claiming that I am "neo-fascist".

Good evening, Sir.
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Nevsky,

Moscow 25/07/2008 00:05:57
565:

Still waiting for a list of failed independent countries in Europe AM2 rather that trawling up countries that have a history that is in now way comparible to Scotland.

Shall we go back to all the countries that gained their independence from the Ottoman Empire? There must be a few success stories there?
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25/07/2008 00:07:28
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25/07/2008 00:10:24
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Nevsky,

Moscow 25/07/2008 00:10:48
John Pienaar has just said that the SNP will probably take the seat! It looks like it just might have happened!
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25/07/2008 00:11:37
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25/07/2008 00:17:14
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Conan the Librarian™,

25/07/2008 00:17:47
578
Fit like loun?


514

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25/07/2008 00:17:56
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25/07/2008 00:20:06
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mac1888,

25/07/2008 00:22:40
looks like the nats are going to win :)
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25/07/2008 00:23:35
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indune1,

Canada 25/07/2008 00:23:56

Wtf was the result?
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25/07/2008 00:24:45
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25/07/2008 00:25:26
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Conan the Librarian™,

25/07/2008 00:26:31
586
Not been declared yet Dunnie, but it's looking good.
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mac1888,

Bute 25/07/2008 00:26:50
bawface Purcell looks like he's gonnae burst oot greetin! lol
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25/07/2008 00:27:19
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25/07/2008 00:29:07
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mac1888,

25/07/2008 00:29:23
yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!
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25/07/2008 00:29:47
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25/07/2008 00:30:16
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indune1,

Canada 25/07/2008 00:31:13
Ayrshire Laddie and Conan - look lads, I'm counting on you. Have to go out to a family do for a wee time.

Please post the result for me. Cheers and ta, Dunnie.
529

PointOf View,

Edinburgh, Stirling Bridge. 25/07/2008 00:31:19
Looking good for SNP. In any case once done and dusted and looking forwards into the future rather than pay tribute to Thatcher during her STATE funeral,,, anyone up for a CELEBRATORY night out to celebrate the passing of a unionist tyrant.
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Conan the Librarian™,

25/07/2008 00:31:21
591
No-oo, no-oo!
Ye canny hear a f*****g thing!
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25/07/2008 00:31:22
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25/07/2008 00:32:13
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Rufus T. Firefly,

25/07/2008 00:32:40
Nicola Sturgeon manages to make Annabel Goldie look like Kate Moss.
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indune1,

Canada 25/07/2008 00:32:48
595 - does that mean what I think it does?

592 - Ayrshire laddie - surely that was a typo with regard to your last word?
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Rufus T. Firefly,

25/07/2008 00:33:22
#597 You are one sicko.
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25/07/2008 00:34:23
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Conan the Librarian™,

25/07/2008 00:34:27
597
PointOf View

A Stake dinner?
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25/07/2008 00:37:36
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25/07/2008 00:40:46
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25/07/2008 00:41:20
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Rufus T. Firefly,

25/07/2008 00:42:09
Ayrshire Scot you are one pain in the A rse.

Out of over 600 posts on here probably over 200 are yours.

You are a giant bore.
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Rufus T. Firefly,

25/07/2008 00:42:25
And an idiot to boot.
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25/07/2008 00:44:30
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Conan the Librarian™,

25/07/2008 00:44:44
610
611
Up yours;-)
545

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25/07/2008 00:45:30
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Conan the Librarian™,

25/07/2008 00:45:53
Richter scale...hehe
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25/07/2008 00:47:21
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25/07/2008 00:48:55
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25/07/2008 00:49:35
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25/07/2008 00:49:44
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indune1,

Canada 25/07/2008 00:49:52
Conan and AYrshire Laddie - focus! Victory?
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25/07/2008 00:50:33
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Nevsky,

Moscow 25/07/2008 00:51:09
SNP by as much as 1500 John Pienaar reckons...worse and worse for Labour lolllllllll
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25/07/2008 00:52:26
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Conan the Librarian™,

25/07/2008 00:52:41
This is MUCH better than Portillo.
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25/07/2008 00:53:14
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European Scot,

25/07/2008 00:56:46
629 Ayrshire Scot

Is it really so ?

How far off is a declaration ?