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Published Date: 27 November 2008
A PROMINENT Nationalist has called on Alex Salmond to abandon plans for a referendum in 2010 because of the economic crisis.
In the New Statesman, the media commentator and academic Rob Brown, a former media editor at Scotland on Sunday and a member of the SNP, argues that the financial meltdown has exposed weaknesses in the Scottish economy and prevailing attitudes a
mong the Scottish population.

But yesterday the Scottish Government confirmed it still wanted to push ahead with the referendum planned for St Andrew's Day 2010, despite a BBC poll showing a drop in support for independence by 3 per cent. The referendum is subject to MSPs voting for it in early 2010.

The projected drop by one-third in oil revenues from 2010, the problems suffered by Scottish banks, the collapse of the banking system in Iceland, which the SNP once held up as a model for Scotland, and the fear that unemployment is set to rise by 2 per cent have all contributed to question marks over the independence project.

Mr Brown wrote: "Salmond is in a hurry to make history. But party members should be wary of his impatience because this inveterate gambler wouldn't just be risking further economic instability and his own political legacy with an ill-timed referendum; he would be risking the very future of the self-government cause."

But the SNP argues that the crisis has only served to strengthen the case for independence.

A source close to the First Minister said: "What we are seeing is the cack-handed way the UK government has treated the whisky industry. North Sea oil money is bankrolling the UK budget at a time when Alistair Darling wants to take away up to £1 billion from the Scottish budget.

"We are confident in our arguments and it will be interesting to see if the Unionist parties are as confident in theirs when they come to vote on whether to give the Scottish people a chance to decide on their own future."

Professor John Curtice, a political analyst at Strathclyde University, said that it was not clear which side of the argument would be strengthened by the crisis.

"Certainly there has been a drop of 3 to 4 per cent since it started in support for independence, but you have to remember that it was only ever running at one-third in favour," he said.

"It could depend on whether there is a run on the pound, and the UK government is forced to go to the IMF, over who will win the argument in terms of whether Scotland would have been better off as independent in the eurozone or in the UK.

"Of course, the other question is whether there will even be a referendum. It will need support from a Unionist party and I don't see Labour supporting it under its current leadership."



The full article contains 487 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Rufus T. Firefly,

26/11/2008 22:26:26
"Rob Brown, a former media editor at Scotland on Sunday and member of the SNP, argues that the financial meltdown has exposed weaknesses in the Scottish economy"

Rob Brown the master of the understatement.
2

Rufus T. Firefly,

26/11/2008 22:35:30
Salmond prefers the Greenland model of Independence.

More autonomy but still bleed dry your neighbour for as many subsidies as possible.

In Greenland, social problems are rife. Alcoholism and suicide are common place. Greenland's government has asked employees of large public companies, including taxi and postal services, to report customers that seem suicidal.

This would have been a handy strategy in Glenrothes On November 7th. All they would have to do is look for NatZ supporters with yellow 'yes we can' badges carrying losing betting slips.
3

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27/11/2008 00:08:43
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4

Scunnert,

27/11/2008 00:21:10
A Supporter urges SNP to drop referendum plans

A Supporter urges Labour to drop Brown

A supporter urges Labour to have referendum on Lisbon Treaty

So what? Who cares?

"Mr Salmond himself had stated that defeat would kill aspirations to statehood stone dead for a generation."

Well - that's the First Minister's position - it sure isn't mine.
5

Steve A.,

27/11/2008 00:22:27
Is the real reason crash Gordon wont call a GE anytime soon that it's really really difficult to rig a nationwide election ?

How can they try to rig the independence referendum from the opposition benches in westmonster ?

Crash Gordon should be lapping up his fat cat directorship at Lloyd's just as Scotland pulls herself free from the dead hand of a dead and discredited union .



6

Scunnert,

27/11/2008 00:31:21
Do these "journalists" realize how foolish their incessant unionist propaganda comes across?

SNP plans 'will mean tartan tax bombshell'

Auschwitz school trips saved after SNP caves in

SNP under fire on tax and schools

Leaden-footed SNP hands the initiative to Labour

From MoD to Help the Aged, critics lay into Salmond's income tax plan

Stop ducking nuclear issue, Salmond told

Nationalists set for major U-turn on local income tax concessions

Falling oil prices a threat to SNP's independence plans

SNP spends £23,000 on Saltires – from Far East

Schools 'crumble as SNP fails to deliver funding system'

Opposition parties accuse SNP of 'not going far enough' with climate Bill

MSPs put pressure on SNP to safeguard homes


Yadda yadda yadda

Next -


7

FrancesP,

27/11/2008 00:34:19
If Rob Brown is such a 'prominent nationalist', how come I've never heard of him?
8

Royster,

27/11/2008 00:45:26
Rufus, Of course Greenlanders voted in favour. They got to keep the volatile resources and the comfort blanket of the 'something for nothing subsidy'. Who would have voted against? I surprised the Danes are so stupid. Talk about mollycoddling.
9

Dark Lochnagar,

27/11/2008 01:05:14
Yeh, Rufus. Greenland sounds just like the place for a half empty kinda guy like yourself. I'm sure they'll be a collection for a length of rope.
10

Castaway™ ,

27/11/2008 01:15:43
Why not postpone the next general election which must be held on of before 3 Jun 2010 because of the economic crisis.
We need Gordon and Alistair at the helm of our great Great Britain.
Given time I am sure "the raised magician" can conjure up something, he is after all a wizard with numbers.
Here is an example of our wizard and numbers:-So today in Glasgow Mr Blair and Mr Brown will warn that the SNP's promises, even without independence, will cost Scottish families £5,000 a year.The Guardian - April 3, 2007
11

Fact-Checker,

Edinburgh 27/11/2008 01:17:36
Rob Brown was considered a sufficiently prominent nationalist to be granted a whole hour by Alex Salmond to deliver the Donaldson Lecture to a plenary session at the SNP's autumn 2006 conference, where his speech was frequently interrupted by applause. In autumn 2007 a book of essays which he edited to commemorate the SNP's election victory 'Nation in a State' sold out at the conference after the First Minister hailed it as "an important and timely contribution to the independence debate". Some might see his latest article in the New Statesman in the same light.
12

,

27/11/2008 01:32:15
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13

Fifi la Bonbon,

27/11/2008 01:39:01
So what you are saying, Mapkaz, is "move along, no story here, haven't you got homes to go to?"

But it is news. This Rob Brown does seem quite senior in the SNP, he's spoken out in public against the party line, and now the cry is "Rob Brown? Who he? Never heard of the chap!"

Thank goodness for a free press prepared to criticise and report on issues to do with the ruling party as it falls into decline.
14

,

27/11/2008 01:49:54
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,

27/11/2008 01:53:06
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,

27/11/2008 01:54:53
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,

27/11/2008 02:00:34
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27/11/2008 02:12:48
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19

karin.m,

27/11/2008 02:33:20
dictionary definition of PROMINENT is widely known.

so i have to say hands up everyone who knew or has known this rob dude

NOT ME>
20

karin.m,

27/11/2008 02:36:04
the economic crisis caused and being made worse every day by gordon brown is actually more of a reason to have an independence referendum.

why exactly are people scared of an independence referendum? surely if people are not for independence then it is right that the issue is decided.
21

Steve A.,

27/11/2008 02:44:14
#19 Karin m

Rob Who ?????
22

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27/11/2008 02:49:17
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23

Steve A.,

27/11/2008 03:02:58
Is this what Gordon brown is all about ?...judge yourself!

How did we get into the current financial mess? Great question.

Turmoil in the Making



In 1910, seven men held a secret meeting on Jekyll Island off the coast of Georgia. It’s estimated that those seven men represented one-sixth of the world’s wealth. Six were Americans representing J.P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller, and the U.S. government. One was a European representing the Rothschilds and Warburgs.

In 1913, the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank was created as a direct result of that secret meeting. Interestingly, the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank isn’t federal, there are no reserves, and it’s not a bank. Those seven men, some American and some European, created this new entity, commonly referred to as the Fed, to take control of the banking system and the money supply of the United States.

In 1944, a meeting in Bretton Woods, N.H., led to the creation of the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank. While the stated purposes for the two new organizations initially sounded admirable, the IMF and the World Bank were created to do to the world what the Federal Reserve Bank does to the United States.

In 1971, President Richard Nixon signed an executive order declaring that the United States no longer had to redeem its paper dollars for gold. With that, the first phase of the takeover of the world banking system and money supply was complete.

In 2008, the world is in economic turmoil. The rich are getting richer, but most people are becoming poorer. Much of this turmoil is directly related to those meetings that took place decades ago. In other words, much of this turmoil is by design.


Gordon Brown cant get enough of these meetings, why ?


24

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27/11/2008 03:11:34
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Steve A.,

27/11/2008 03:37:05
Traquir

Watching PMQ's it's not hard to understand why Scotland is destined to failure whilst under the power of these imperialist control freaks !

26

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27/11/2008 03:44:15
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27/11/2008 03:50:02
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27/11/2008 03:52:12
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Royster,

27/11/2008 03:54:57
Why do they need 'a path to independence'? Is it because no one would vote for it at the moment?
30

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27/11/2008 03:57:16
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31

Scunnert,

27/11/2008 04:02:28
Good tae see ye postin here Wilhelm. Gie them laldie.
32

Scunnert,

27/11/2008 04:04:40
30 Traquir, Alba, 27/11/2008 03:57:16

"To be labelled British is indeed one of the highest forms of insult."

Aye - the equal ae the "N" word.
33

Steve A.,

27/11/2008 04:05:16
#30 Traquir

AGREED !
34

KampungHighlander,

27/11/2008 04:26:58
A prominent Nationalist.....Rob Brown?

Never Heard of Him.

I wonder who decided that he was prominent? Was it Davie Maddox? Or did Mr. Brown say "I'm a prominent Nationalist"?

When you are done interviewing senile old editors from your Newspaper, maybe you could interview my cat Mr. Tiddles.

He is also a Nationalist and considers himself very prominent.

He however thinks we should stick to our goal of a referendum in 2010.
35

Steve A.,

27/11/2008 04:33:24
#34
I would love to see that ...two pu$$y's having a chat :0)

36

drunken proffet,

Tassy 27/11/2008 06:38:28
An intelligent comment though maybe from the wrong attitude. Certainly being SNP I have never doubted that Scotland should go it on its own, however morally this should happen when both parties are at a parity. So either you go for independence when the UK is over its problems and back on an even keel, or you go for independence when everything has gone to the dogs and you would rather see your own way clear of the problems. I would hate to fix a date on it.
37

SouthernSkye,

27/11/2008 07:14:39
No Need to cancel this. let's hear the country speak and then take it from there. If it is a yes vote then a time-table can be set to ease the transition during these difficult times.
38

aljok.23,

the world 27/11/2008 07:20:37
So Rob Brown doesn't believe in democracy?noted.
39

Nikostratos,,

27/11/2008 07:24:14
#30

Bring on the Referendum asap so we can can squash the rebellious nationalist cause once and for all.

why don't you want one afraid u will lose.......eh?

40

Royster,

27/11/2008 07:39:15
The SNP is now irrelevant.
41

John S,

27/11/2008 07:42:08
BBC poll showing a drop in support for independence by 3 per cent.
BBC-26 November 2008-The survey of 1,000 people in Scotland was conducted by Progressive Scottish Opinion for the BBC. Our poll asked people whether the crisis had made them more or less likely to support independence.
24% said more likely-TNS Oct 35%, difference 13%
34% said they were unsure-TNS Oct 22%, difference 12%
42% said they were now less likely-TNS Oct 43%, difference 1%
It looks as if the BBC is using some other poll for comparison which showed a 27% more likely to vote for independence.
Both polls show a steady less likely to vote for independence at 42%-43%
TNS x 5 polls since Aug 2007 on independence show an average of agree 38%, not agree 43.5% don't know 18.5%.
42

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 27/11/2008 08:11:37
Does anybody know the present whereabouts of Alex Salmond?
43

Rufus T. Firefly,

27/11/2008 08:17:47
#41 Royster

What do you mean "now"?

The SNP has always been irrelevant.
44

Rufus T. Firefly,

27/11/2008 08:19:33
#43 W U Merchant

The clever money is on Burger King.
45

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27/11/2008 08:21:08
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46

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 27/11/2008 08:42:00
#46

"It's easy to imagine the childhood Rufus, Royster, Nikos, SM753 and Fifi shrieking in the playground."

From the level of thought they devote to their posts, I would guess that they are still on the playground.

After all they still believe in Santa, the easter bunny, the tooth fairy, the Union and that Gordon Brown is a Prudent manager.
47

John S,

27/11/2008 08:49:00
Why should the SNP abandon the proposed referendum on Scottish independence when a general election must be held on or before 3 Jun 2010 which may or may not result in a change of Government then the referendum will follow.
4 June 2009-EU elections plus England local council elections.
6 May 2010-Local elections in all London Boroughs, and 134 other English Local Authorities.
3 June 2010-Last possible UK general election date.
30 Nov 2010-Possible referendum on Scottish independence.
48

Marian,

27/11/2008 08:57:38
Gordon Brown and his New Labour party have a right cheek claiming that Scots could and should not run their own nation and its economy.

Recent events have undone the entire economic strategy of the UK New Labour led Government. As UK Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time, Gordon Brown promised an end to “boom and bust”.

That promise must now haunt Gordon Brown, for he knows that - as UK Chancellor - he was culpable for the domestic circumstances that contribute to our dire economic plight
.
Who ignored the debt spiral as it built up? Who weakened regulation and allowed Northern Rock to offer 125 per cent mortgages? Who diminished Bank of England control over our banking system? Who wrecked final-salary pensions with a £5 billion-a-year tax levy? Who ignored the risks of the house price and equity boom?

A glance in the mirror shows Gordon Brown to be the culprit.

Gordon Brown admits to none of this but asserts that our present woes are due entirely to “an international crisis begun in America”. He repeats this mantra so often that he may have come to believe it. But no one else should.

A large part of the crisis now engulfing us is home-grown in the Treasury and No10. The UK would be facing recession and a house price collapse without any international dimension. New Labour has as much financial blood on its hands as any erring banker on either side of the Atlantic.

What we are now seeing is the ultimate confidence trick perpetrated – as Gordon Brown, with Peter Mandelson and Alastair Campbell pulling the media strings all around him - makes political capital to try and win an early 2009 election based on borrowing to create a sense of feel-good - knowing that disaster is surely ahead and being exacerbated by policies which are about his survival, and that of the New Labour government, certainly not about what is best for the UK.
49

Mcsnagpile,

27/11/2008 09:10:26
A referendum is a red herring. William the Conquerer, William of Orange, Cromwell, the Hanoverians and many more, all did quite well without referendums. In fact not even a debate about oil or anything. Either you are Scottish or your are not. If you are Scottish and want to keep your own house then everything else is by automatic default. Having the independent state of Westminster rule, is rule by proxy.
50

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27/11/2008 09:30:28
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27/11/2008 09:30:31
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27/11/2008 09:35:33
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53

Beachcomber,

Edinburgh 27/11/2008 09:35:38

Rastus/Toyster/SM753/WU Merchant/SM753 & Fifi,

Wonderful posts - just keep them coming, you
are doing a better job than the press - in recruiting
more Scots to turn away from Liebour and join the
SNP, the only Party that has Scotlands interests
at heart. I look forward to listening to Alex Salmond
on FMQ today. Let's be honest here, Alex Salmond
runs rings around the oppostion - the Greyman in particular, is a novice in comparison.





54

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 27/11/2008 09:36:02
Rufus gives us his insight into the world of football:-
“What happened to Celtic last night?

What an embarrassment.

1 point out of 54.

Dear oh Dear.”

He appears to know as much about football as he does about Scottish politics.

1 point out of 54?

In the Champions League Celtic have two points out of a possible 15.

I guess figures just aint Rufus’s thing.
55

Alan B,

27/11/2008 09:43:50
The mess of the uk economy because of an incompetent labour party with Brown is hardly a reason against independence.

Off course Brown by pouring more and more debt onto the economy to save his own political skin makes it more difficult when we come out the recession.

My own view regarding independence is the snp would have been better targetting fiscal autonomy as the first stage in an independence strategy.

56

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27/11/2008 09:44:52
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57

David MacVicar,

web 27/11/2008 09:51:31
David Maddox has pumped out anti SNP propaganda 'a go-go' since Salmond publically humiliated him and this (cough) journal on live television after the Glasgow by-election.

I guess it still pains. Maddox seems to think the SNP will collapse due to a death by a thousand Labour press releases and comment dressed up as unionist fact.

Labour have a reprieve, riding on a sea of peoples fear, due to problems that Labour were elected to prevent all while they boasted that bust would not happen under Nu Labour, right up till it well and truely imploded and Labours borrowing exploded.

My crystal ball says that people are going to be a tad upset when Gordons policies hit them still harder. My crystal ball also says this is very likely to happen before the end of 2010! Its true that Salmond is a gambler. It is a pretty safe bet he is keeping a low profile (for him) letting Brown take all the postive headlines and letting him 'get on with it'. 100% Labour success if Brown pulls it off, 100% labours fault when it totally falls apart. Oops.


Still the articles are great food for the demersal lifeforms and that depend on the daily effluent from Maddox et al. Truely sad individuals the lot.


58

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27/11/2008 09:53:26
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27/11/2008 09:56:06
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27/11/2008 09:57:03
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61

AJM,

27/11/2008 10:10:58
I see that the SNP pack wants to shoot the messenger and then belittle a SNP party supporter who has clearly been a senior person within the party.
Why because he has dared, yes dared to say what is clear to most that the party at the moment is run by and for Alex. He gets it wrong as he has with the "arc of prosperity", that from an economist, Glenrothes, go have a bet as we are sure to win, are recent examples.
Most of the SNP posters are AS supporters not SNP supporters, who would have the best interests of their party at heart. If they had they might be a bit more cautious and post items that reflected the issue of a one person party machinery.
62

AJM,

27/11/2008 10:16:16
#72 Point is are Rob Brown's comments right? A list, even your shopping list is not relevant, nor is the journalist.
63

Alan B,

27/11/2008 10:19:58
#AJM

Disagree completely. Firstly most independence supporters back independence rather than the snp per se. The snp are just the vehicle to that end.

But why would someone that supports independence because they think the uk simply is bad for scotland and we suffer as a result ie we would do better managing our own affairs etc, reject having a referendum to try to improve the governance of the country.

Of course timing is important and it would be far better if the economy of the uk had not been run into the ground by that complete and utter fool Brown.

But independence is not about a short term fix but about improving the governance of scotland so that we can improve our long standing poor economic performance so that we too could perform aswell as so many other small countries in western europe.

Remember Luxembourg, Norway, Ireland, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands,Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium all have a higher gpd per capita ppp than the UK, Germany, France and Italy.

It does not take a genius to draw some logical conclusions from that.

64

Linda,

Edinburgh 27/11/2008 10:24:15
Mr maddox may wish to reflect on fact that support for Scotsman has fallen dramatically since it adopted its aggreessive anti SNP stance.

Shares in Johnston group now at 7.5 pence whereas at £4 before it embarked on its pro unionist campaign.
65

Ugly George,

27/11/2008 10:27:37
In terms of having an independence referendum during a recession, the people may well have a right to vote on this should they wish to but they would have to be aware of the circumstances.

As with other independent Scotland would have to be responsible for govt bonds on the financial markets. Thses would be rated by international credit agencies such as Moodys and S&P. how would they be ratedd? if we look at all the UK and Scottish govt figures the picture is not good to say the least.

For the last year for which figures are avasilable (2006/07) the deficit in the Scottish budget was £10.2bn with no oil revenues and £2.7bn with a "geographical" sahare of oil revenues. For that year the UK deficit was £31bn.

The UK deficit is forcast to increase by £77bn from thai figure. According to the Scottish govt figures, Scotland receives 9.5% of UK spending and contributes 8.3% of revenue (excluding oil). This means that the Scottish non-oil deficit should increase by at least more than 9.5% of £77bn to around £18bn (17% of GDP)
The "geographical" contribution of oil would be 82.5% of 8.7 = £7.2bn reducing the deficit to £10.8bn (over 10% of GDP.

The credit agencies would also note that this level which is already high is being helped by oil revenues while oil production is falling at 7%-9% per year and would question the sustainability. They would also note that an independent Scotland would incur costs in setting up its own instruments of govt which will make the situation worse. In these circumstances the are likely to give the bonds a poor rating which would make them prohibitively expensive ti insure with credit default swaps - big, big problems.
66

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27/11/2008 10:27:46
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67

AJM,

27/11/2008 10:29:46
#Alan B. It is not clear to me that independence supporters back independence for reasons that Scotland would better off outside the union. They would want it even if all the evidence pointed in the other direction. I am not saying it does. But better of out, is a smoke screen argument that is put up, what we want is best for scotland mantra, simply does not stand up.
I am sure that today this guy still wants independence for scotland, he is pointing out that, AS may be rushing into something that would kill of any chance for probably 30yrs, if he gets it wrong.
Why are there no SNP poster prepared to discuss the comments?
68

Raymond Thomas Brooke,

Leven England 27/11/2008 10:37:01
After Glenrothes GB said it was a vote of confidence in his handling of financial affairs fi this were true why doe he not call an election out your(in your case our)money wher your mouth is.
I do not know the area of Glenrothes but can I assume they are all very rich to ride out this crunch
69

AJM,

27/11/2008 10:42:00
#83, thanks for the laugh, there is no point in denial, as your love of conspiracy is too great.
Why is he wrong, if the trend of leakage for the support of continues, then a late u turn would be very damaging. Cannot see it happening, AS like Thatcher is not for turning.
70

AJM,

27/11/2008 10:45:53
#85 you only need to look at the posts and see no debate on the article, why because critiscm of AS or even the thought that there may be another way other than AS's is not allowed on the posts.
Surely he not on his own within the SNP, but he is on here.
71

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 10:52:01
Stupid story. The case for independence does not begin or end with either Alex Salmond or the SNP. And it doesn't depend on the price of oil or the state of the UK banking system either.
72

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 10:53:19
''the independence project'' what is that p1sh ? New Labour were a ''project'' Scotland isn't.
73

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/11/2008 10:54:09
88 The Spook
I don't know if it is the answer you are looking for but please read post 79. In the same way that it is very risky to list a new company with weak finances on the stockmarket in a falling market, it is very risky to launch a new country with weak finances into the worlds bond markets in a recession.

I don't think that there is any mystery about that - it seems pretty obvious.
74

The Master,

27/11/2008 10:55:20
I've always said that it was only a matter of time before the Nationalists soft peddled their increasingly foolhardy separation agenda in favour of concentrating on their other policies (some would call this "goal displacement", others "pragmatism").

Well done to Rob Brown: at last we have a senior Nat who's not completely blinded by the party's central dogmatic belief system, which at times seems to border on a type of religious faith!

#91 Spook: we both know that AM2 and his spin offs will never begone (unlike your Professor MacBonnacord, who was unfortunately deleted for blatant trolling yesterday!)
75

David MacVicar,

web 27/11/2008 11:02:58
sm 7531/2 - The National statistics 'Pink book 2008' paints a very poor picture for Rump UK.

To put things in context you need to factor in that in the last l0 years Scotland has been in Surplus, so all borrowing is Non Scottish debt and UK accounts would be worse without Scottish sourced revenues.

First under Labour:
"since 1998, the current account deficit has
widened sharply. The deficit in 2007, at £52.6 billion, is the highest recorded in cash terms" Thats year on year debt, that we in Scotland assist to pay pack to prop up the South and Labour.

The ONLY surplus the uk has had in the last 30 years is: "The trade in goods account recorded net surpluses in the years 1980, 1981 and 1982, largely as a result of growth in exports of North Sea oil." This financed the Falklands crises and saved Thatcher so that Scotland could be ravaged still further. Still - Thatcher or Labour, doesn't matter - same 'conviction'.

Since 1997, Rump UK depends on mainly on services for revenue, which has been growing steadily...except debt and trade defict has been rising twice as fast. (Singing..There could be trouble ahead, 'no more bust' tra la la)

Rump UK: "Imports of basic materials rose by 10.0 per
cent. Imports of coal, gas and electricity rose by 20.7 per cent, reflecting higher imports of gas and electricity through the inter connectors."
Scotland exported 6 times more gas to rump UK than it uses in same period. No charge. South is now getting even more Gas from Norway using worlds biggest sea pipeline.

The list goes on and on. Rump UK needs to switch to Nuclear Energy under a volatile service economy and paypack of burgeoning debt.

Rump UK Resources? Nuclear waste, some wind, coal, lots and lots of dense urban population to house.
Principal exports: Chemicals, processed goods, food/drink, services, Gems/Silver.
(Except Rump UK imported even more Chemicals, food/drink, processed goods that its exported - doh!)

The truth of 'beak up Britain, end
76

David MacVicar,

contd. 27/11/2008 11:06:47
The truth of 'beak up Britain, end up broke' = Rump UK broke!

If Scotland gets separate accounting, rump UK Accounts are going to look so, so bad it will be embarrassing, and Goodbye Union.
77

AJM,

27/11/2008 11:19:33
#106 Thanks for your support in saying that most posters on here are AS supporters first and foremost.
78

David MacVicar,

web 27/11/2008 11:20:57
The Spook in Leith, "surely your not saying the UK is broke ?"....

No I'm not saying that - The National office of statistics say it all. The voices of the South posting here, Rufus, Royster etc argue different, pushing for Scotland to remain in the Union.

Now what motivates them I wonder?
79

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/11/2008 11:27:41
98 The Spook
"I can see the arguments which you and Rob Brown are putting forward but (not my words) forecasts show Scotland's economy will grow by 1.4% in 2010,whats the problem ?"

A growth rate of 1.4% in 2010 is not going to make much of a hole in these deficits. Growth rates as low as this can, to a large extent, be eaten up by just the increase in the population. Even if and when Scotland returns to its trend rate of growth of roughly 2% it would take a long time to deal with such deficits and how would they be financed in this time.
80

David MacVicar,

web 27/11/2008 11:31:43
sm753. Oh dear.

Gers does not take into account extra Reggo theft and obfuscation. National statistics Pink book is an accounting exercise based on audited accounts. It is not a Labour document.

Gers is a political exercise based on guesswork and dodgy accounting and not audited, beacuse it cannot be. Easily solved through: Fiscal control for Scotland (Accountability, visibility, responsibility, ruuning as a country) ie. all that Unionists desperately do not want for the obvious reasons.

Even if you did only look at Gers without Oil, which you are, its 'structural deficit' is a pittance compared to the Rump UK black hole. The Statistics speak for themselves, believe what you want.

Rump UK is running on borrowed time, borrowed money and a prayer.
81

Ugly George,

27/11/2008 11:33:35
97 David MacVicar
You are obviously confusing balance of trade deficits/surpluses and budget deficits/surpluses. they are not the same thing and I suggest that you learn more about these matters before you make such erroneous comments.
82

Shaken,

27/11/2008 11:39:34
The headline should read

Pressure grows on Scotsman paper to toe party line

Editor Whipped

83

AJM,

27/11/2008 11:40:10
"But party members should be wary of his impatience because this inveterate gambler"
No SNP poster wary on here, not one even prepared to discuss the issue, speaks volumes, rather get off the track onto well worn arguments.

Do I sense a weakness in this area, that the SNP are not at the moment, prepared even to contemplate that the track that AS is going might be wrong.
84

vimto,

27/11/2008 11:51:04
How many times are the Nats going to find an excuse to delay their referendum,which we all know was going to have a rigged question anyway. You'd need to be a proper student with good grammar to understand the Nats' rigged question (unlike spook LOL)
85

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/11/2008 11:51:42
115 The spook
I am not saying that it is OK for the UK to be in deficit. What I was saying that if current forecasts are correct, than the deficit in the Scottish budget will hit over 10% of GDP even with a "geographical" share of oil revenues and a massive 17% without oil revenues.

This will have to be supported by bonds and bonds are issued as either shorts, mediums and longs and can a life span of up to 25 years. The markets are going to look at this and say "even with oil revenues the deficit is very big but these revenues depend on production which is falling year by year. How are all these commitments to be met?" That is the way the markets will look at the situation whether we like it or not.


By contrast the UK deficit is forecast to hit 8% of GDP and this is considered bad enough and UK GDP is also forecast to start growing again in 2010. But the UK would not be relying on oil revenues from falling production in anything like the same proportion.

As far as the people of Scotland blaming Labour for the state of the economy that might be appropriate but it does nothing to deal with the situation in itself.
86

English Bob,

England 27/11/2008 11:53:55
Ah Scotland the brave strikes again - it would be funny apart from how comprehensively Scottish elected politicians are running England into the ground.
87

David MacVicar,

Web 27/11/2008 11:56:57
Ugly George, I was waiting for such a post, you are the winner!

You are partly correct and I am certainly a layman but I am not making "erroneous comments" because they are intrinsically linked.

Don't take my word for it:

"The profile for the current account has historically followed that of trade in goods, its biggest and most cyclical component. For a while, at the end of the 1990s, that pattern changed, but in recent years the pattern has re-emerged and the increasing deficit on trade in goods is mirrored by an increase in the current account deficit".

People can read through the entire Pink book for themselves and if not bored to tears can reach their own conclusions. It does not make comfortable reading - worst of all the numbers are all prior to the 'Bust' Mr Brown was boasting we wouldn't get.

These arguments are a complete waste of time because all debate would be null and void with Fiscal control.
Some people like the idea of clarity to end pointless debate (The non unionists), some love the obfuscation and lack of accountability (guess who).


Please write to the office of national statistics to complain about such "confusion" and set them straight ;).
88

Alan B,

27/11/2008 12:02:34
#AJM

I could not say why other people support independence to me economics is central.

As an independence supporter I would rather scotland achieved fiscal autonomy first. There are political risks with the snp rushing to an independence referendum with an all or nothing approach. But from a democratic point of view the country needs a clear answer one way or the other.

I support looking at it from a power by power basis as there is to me an overwhelming logic to devolving nearly all powers to the scottish parliament. fiscal autonomy would have the advantages of:
1)giving scotland the tools of economic management to sort out our poor economic performance. (to me that is important as the economy is key to my politics).
2)would sort out english resentment
3)would allow the democratic deficits to be sorted
4)would allow the scottish parliament to be accountable for the money it spends.
5)would improve the working between the 2 parliaments
6)has more support than just the independence supporters
7)would allow a more mature debate on independence. (one of the key reason Brown rejects realy fiscal devolution is it would remove the power to use fear in any independence referendum.

89

Alan B,

27/11/2008 12:04:20
#Ugly George

"As far as the people of Scotland blaming Labour for the state of the economy that might be appropriate but it does nothing to deal with the situation in itself."

Very true apart from the word "might".
90

Alan B,

27/11/2008 12:07:58
#118 AJM

I think there is common sense in AS independence strategy. But personally as i have said I would rather have gone for fiscal autonomy first.

Problem with that politically is Swinney did that and fiscal autonomy is a drier subject. To convince and interest people not so into politics it needs a wider strategy.
91

Alan B,

27/11/2008 12:11:30
#sm753

So why do you think Brown has been so incompetent in managing scotlands economy not to talk of the wider uk economy.

You can throw insults as you find it difficult to put a coherent arguement together but you were the moron arguing about the scottish economy but were completely unaware of the recession in scotland earlier in Browns rule of the economy (2001/2002) or the manufactuing recession in the late 90s.

So look in the mirror if you are wanting to see an economic illiterate.

92

,

27/11/2008 12:11:52
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93

,

27/11/2008 12:15:23
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94

JCA REID,

Annan 27/11/2008 12:16:00
Even if there is a referendum that returns a "Yes" vote for independence, the SNP are consistently the largest party @ Holyrood & even if/when they become the largest Scottish Party @ Westminster, just watch England/Westminster ignore it! They'll send troops onto the streets to prevent any change in the status quo.
95

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/11/2008 12:16:57
124 David MacVicar
Are you saying that the figures I have used from HMRC and the current Scottish govt are "obfuscation"
96

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27/11/2008 12:18:20
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97

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/11/2008 12:18:29
133 JCA Reid
"They'll send troops onto the streets to prevent any change in the status quo."

Why should they wish to do so?
98

David MacVicar,

web 27/11/2008 12:19:09
sm753. Your right! Guess we are not reading the same report.

The one and only one the SNP have done, states in the conclusion "In 2006-07, the estimated current budget balance for the public sector in Scotland was a deficit of £6.7 billion (6.4 per cent of GDP) excluding North Sea revenue, a deficit of £6.0 billion (5.5 per cent of GDP) including a per capita share of North Sea revenue
or
a surplus of £0.8 billion (0.7 per cent of GDP) including an estimated geographical share of North Sea revenue."

Also Aberdeen University analysis stated "This would see the country's budget surplus stand at £837 million (0.7% of GDP) in 2006/07 - compared with a UK deficit of £4.3 billion."

Gers is still a political exercise to be used or abused by anyone and Oil just skews the whole thing because Scotland is strong even without it and takes into account spending on dung that we do not want to spend in the first place!

Fiscal accounting is all that is required aka the plain honest truth. Its too hot to handle for the dependent regionalists aspiring to reach 2nd place in a 2 horse State!
99

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/11/2008 12:23:31
135 sm753.5
I have used figures published by the current Scottish Govt. and Treasury forecasts. Are you saying that these have been massaged by the Scottish govt to give a picture which suits their arguments.

100

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/11/2008 12:26:11
We should hold a referendum when we decide, not when some screaming New Labour Sleaze harridan says we should.

Mind on, we only need to win it once!!
101

AJM,

27/11/2008 12:26:31
#131 He has written in the New Statesman, his own article, it may have been edited of course, but not made up.
Why does anything that does not fit your view of the world have to be a lie and a deception. I do not treat everything that a nationalist says as lies and deception.
102

G,

dndy 27/11/2008 12:27:02
Acording the SNPite world-view , all of Scotland's ills are cased by the UNion...so why are they so scared of having a referendum on independence?
However without the convienent scapegoat of the Union, how would the SNP cope?
After all nothing is their fault....
103

lulach mac gille coemgain,

27/11/2008 12:32:15
Congratulations Greenland - Way to Go!
104

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/11/2008 12:34:29
137 David Macvicar
"Gers is still a political exercise to be used or abused by anyone and Oil just skews the whole thing because Scotland is strong even without it"

The most recent GERS analysis was undertaken by the SNP Scottish Govt. It showed a non-oil deficit of £10.2bn (9.7%) of GDP. These figures were from year 2006/07 - before the recession. A 9.7% deficit is way above the 3% required by the Eurozone for its stabilty pact and countries have faced disciplinary action from the ECB for deficits of only 4% or so.

So how can your statement that Scotland is strong without oil have any credibility unless the SNP govt has cooked the books to make Scotland's position look worse than it is - why would the chose to do that?

105

Ugly George,

27/11/2008 12:41:56
137 David MacVicar
PS
The supposed £0.8bn (with oil revenues) surplus you mentioned was a classic (or rather inept) piece of spin by John Swinney.

The actual figure was a deficit of £2.7bn but he said that £3.5bn had been spent on "investment" and so did not count thus giving a supposed surplus. He has obviously learnt this trick from Gordon Brown.
106

vimto,

27/11/2008 12:50:17
125 prof MacBonnacord: you wrote the Nats' seperation question,didn't you,makes about as much sense as whatever you were writing about. Don't worry,I'm reporting you to the plane english campaign you ivory tower buffoon LMAO

143.you're taking the michael,aren't you
107

AJM,

27/11/2008 12:53:44
#147 much safer, psychologically than having to address any points that Rob Brown makes.
108

P Rayner.,

Latin America 27/11/2008 12:54:01
ALAN B 127.- I am unable to predict whether or not Scotland would be ¨better off ïndependent of the Union, though I suspect not. However, it seems to me the implication that those other parts of the Union be expected to accept the premise of Scotland leaving at a time best suited to Scotland alone, as you suggested, both unfair and unnacceptable. The evidence thus far strongly suggest no appetite in Scotland for separation .Never the less this continual speculation is damaging. I suggest a referendum now and if a vote in favour of leaving Scotland should grab its balls and leave, irrespective of its future prospects.
109

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 12:54:28
''a nasty arrogant little tin-pot Napoleon of a man''

This appears to be the Unionists main tactic. Ad hominem attack on Salmond in lieu of a reasoned argument. The headline to this story is rubbish, there is no pressure on the SNP to shelve plans for a referendum, quite the contrary.
110

Allan(handofgod137),

27/11/2008 12:54:49
So the nat rats are running scared, now they realise that there's less support for their independent socialist repupublic of scotland than for gary glitter running a creche.
111

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 12:57:04
149 what is ''unsafe'' about addressing the ''arguments'' Rob Brown makes.

You unionists just don't get it. Because the UK banking system collapsed, and because the UK's economy is in meltdown is no impediment to Scottish independence.

It's an incentive.
112

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 12:58:00
152 - more ad hominem rubbish. What ''nats'' are running scared - I don't see any.
113

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/11/2008 12:59:48
153
"Because the UK banking system collapsed, and because the UK's economy is in meltdown is no impediment to Scottish independence."

Please read post 79.
114

David MacVicar,

27/11/2008 13:00:33
142 sm753
"estimated...estimated...estimated". At last we are getting somewhere. I didn't prop up Gers as relevant, others do, its a joke, a wee regional pretendy report for we regional politics. Time to grow up. London can change Scotlands budget as soon as someone farts, it is no way to fiscally run a country - OK for regions and regionalists. The only accounting worthy of name are UK aggregated and cannot be split down. Any other 'statistics' are a farce.

Scotland needs to account for iteslf and contribute to the UK for shared services not the other way round. Extra regio, GERS, Barnett yada yada is a UK unionist contrived practice to avoid the simple, obvious and open method.

I certainly know the difference, between accountability, responsibility, openness and capabilty to Govern compared to Gers, guesswork, political manipulation and budgets calculated on whim that change at the drop of a hat.

Secondly, any position arguing against Scotlands ability to govern iteslf because of our current financial position is ludicrous because our current financial strength or weakness is 100% due to Union Governance.
115

AJM,

27/11/2008 13:04:42
#153 an incentive to you, but not the majority that is growing it appears. Clearly Rob Brown is wanting to discuss that if it continues they will make a fool of themselves with a referendum.
116

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 13:06:16
155 I have read it so what ?

Scaremongering is all you have.
117

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 13:08:04
157 Yeah, it's an incentive to me and a growing number of other people who can see throught the smoke and mirrors.

118

David MacVicar,

web 27/11/2008 13:15:27
Ugly George, I started posting about the Pink book which is based on audited figures. I you want to debate Scotlands fiscal position it simply cannot be done without fiscal control and clarity of all revenues and expenditures.

You can bleat against the wind all you want its pointless. The SNP want full independence but fiscal control is all that is required in the short term to run Scotland properly in a devolved way that actually makes it accountable. Is that too much to ask?

The systems we have today creates all these wasted, senseless, pointless debates. These are the systems the unionists put in place: ZERO ACCOUNTABILITY, DO AS YOU ARE TOLD WITH WHAT WE, ERR, CALCULATE YOUR REGION DESERVES.

The Nationalists and others want openness and responsibility first and foremost.
Unionists deliver dependency, unaudited political estimates and unaccountable Governance. This is a self evident truth that trounces pointless "Oil this, London that" debates.

We need to get busy being a country or get busy being a region. Regionalism was firmly rejected, get over it.
119

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/11/2008 13:19:32
158 Observer 1
Please read waht I read. I said quite specifically that the poeople have the right to vote but that they should be aware of the circumstances.

I describle likely circumstances and you cannot just say that it is scaremongering - it is trying to make people aware of the situation. Can you answer the points I made with constructive argument rather than regurgitating the tired old accusation of "scaremongering" when something appears that does not suit your argument.
120

vimto,

27/11/2008 13:19:38
150.but would you support a referendum with salmonds rigged question that noone can understand,except possibly a brazilian like you LMAO
121

Ugly George,

27/11/2008 13:23:24
160
I have no objection to accountability and responsibility. I just wish to make sure that people have an informed view on these matters. You will note that I have not expressed an opinion here on how people should vote - that is up to them. But I think they should do so with as much awareness of the realities of the situation as possible.
122

vimto,

27/11/2008 13:25:27
153.observer: so before I leave home I should find myself a worse job,so i can cut my income and live happier on my own,you are a plonker and no mistake
123

vimto,

27/11/2008 13:27:40
154.noone's being homophobic apart from you
124

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 13:30:33
164 You are clearly an idiot who doesn't deserve a response.
125

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 13:31:10
161 I will respond to you later got to go just now.
126

Alan B,

27/11/2008 13:31:11
#P Rayner

I think the timescale for a 2010 referendum is reasonable. I at the very least I think we have to allow all parties to know the date about 6months in advance so that a proper debate can be had with the country. Having it now when we are just going into the deepest recession for decades i would suggest is not the best time.

Also I think it is important we hear Calman first. See what he says and recommends. For many what he suggest could have influence in how they vote. It is also important that we the public know whether the parties that set up calman will argee with it and implement its conclusions. If Calman was to recommend Wendy style fiscal federalism and Brown refused in a similar way that he refused to implement the recommedations of his own report into Douglas Alexanders disasterous running of the scottish election then again the people should know in advance.

My reason for wanting fiscal autonomy first is partly that it would sort out the constituional mess we have a the moment. It would be good for the whole uk for the reasons i pointed out above.

The reason i think Scotland would do better economically outside the union or with economic tools devolved to the scottish parliament is party due to :
1)the failure of the scottish economy within the union.
a)less that 2% growth over 30yrs per yr on avg
b)growth of 2.2% over the last decade while the uk grew at 2.8%
c)grwoth of 2.2% while the group of small countries that economist refer to grew at 3.6%
d)The fact that Luxembourg, Norway, Ireland, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands,Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium all have higher gpd per capita ppp than the big 4 european countries of uk, germany, italy and france. Showing the misconception that you have to be big to perform and with the evidence suggesting the opposite is true.
e)could we really do worse
f)westminster parties of both labour and tory have shown no willing to address the uk north south divide (labour said
127

Alan B,

27/11/2008 13:31:41
... they would in opposition). Politically for parties to win power mean that scotland and the north of britain is not important and hence get shafted.
g)without power over economic tools to manage the eocnomy you will never improve anything.
h)the inappropriateness of sterling interest rates compared to the euro. Demonstrated by eddie georges governor of BOE at the time statement that unemployment in the north was a price worth paying to control inflation in the south. Not critising him as it is an economic truism as he only had control of a blunt instruement in interest rates and it needed uk government action to redress this problem but they were unwilling.







128

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27/11/2008 13:34:05
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129

Ugly George,

27/11/2008 13:36:18
159 Observer 1
"Yeah, it's an incentive to me and a growing number of other people who can see throught the smoke and mirrors."

Your analogy or metaphor (whichever it is) is very revealing. You claim to be able to see through mirrors. Anybody who can claim to be seeing through a mirror is obviously unaware that all he is seeing is himself.

If your metaphor makes sense it must mean that those deceptions that you claim to be able to see can only be a manifestation of your own deceptions.

130

bill-alba,

fife 27/11/2008 13:38:19
g - the only people who are running scared are you vichy scots.. You personally have been informed a hundred times when the bill for the referendum will take place you choose to ignore it and rely on your wee britnat notebook for misinformation..we all know your bended knee position.
131

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27/11/2008 13:41:18
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132

,

27/11/2008 13:43:28
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133

David MacVicar,

web 27/11/2008 13:43:54
Debating with unionists is like herding cats, impossible to pin even one down on a fixed point.

Me: UK is screwed look at the stats Pink book.
them: Its balance of trade stupid.
Me: It still shows UK is screwed stupid.
Them: Scotland is worse look at Gers.
Me: Gers is a joke. I didnt mention Gers I quoted an audited source, stop deflecting.
Them: Are you saying its all obfuscated
Me: No I qouted the pink book I did not bring Gers into it.
Them: Gers shows a deficit.
Me: Gers Summary shows a surplus based on your statement, I provided the quote. Which I stated is a JOKE anyway, so is meaningless.
Them: "surplus you mentioned was a classic ". Could be, who knows. I said gers was joke anyway, you said it stated a deficit with Oil. Meaning:

The joke that is GERS, stated a surplus with oil, that you stated was a deficit. I showed otherwise. Then you stated that it is spin. At last we agree.

So it is spin on a figure that does not exist. It may well be spin because its based on an estimated figure from a hypothetical on a report that is itself made up from non accountable sources in part and estimates for the most part from visible expenditure.
ROFLMAO: Welcome to Unionist fiscal accounting for Scotland in the UK.
134

Rufus T. Firefly,

27/11/2008 13:46:18
Hey Jakie Priest, Greenland better be careful with their independence.

If the country goes into meltdown, the sea level will rise 10 metres.
135

Ugly George,

27/11/2008 13:46:55
170 sm753.5
It's funny but you seem to be saying the same thing as another person who used to post here called suchaparcelofrogues. Like you, he claimed that figures produced by the govt were "false" and that they manipulated them to match their "rhetoric"

Also, like you, he implied that I said that govts deliberatley produce false figures when I have said no such thing. Somebody told me that this individual was removed from theses threads for making outrageously offensive comments. I don't know if that is true or not.

However your comments are remarkably similar. Is this person a relative of yours or does he have another connection with you?

PS
If the figures used in GERS are falsified to make the position of Scotland look worse than it is why do the SNP not complain about this and if it is the case, why do you not expose the falsification to the media. that is the advice I gave to suchaparcelofrogues.
136

Nikostratos,,

27/11/2008 13:48:08
#160 David MacVicar


"The SNP want full independence"

Dave they may want many things but the snp do not have the support of the majority support of elected representatives at holyrood.

But still they persist in their vain futile and ultimately undemocratic ways. How can they demand any fiscal control which is in the constitutional remit of Westminster when they have no mandate to do so.

you talk about unionist unaccountable Governance and then propose the snp (and not the Scottish parliament) should have "responsibility" although they are only a here today gone tomorrow political party. You do not ask for scottish sovereignty to be given to the scottish parliament only to the snp or on other words Alex Salmond.

Dave how can lecture any one on being unaccountable when you don't even believe in Independent political institutions whereby all the scottish peoples can decide how they wish to be governed...

to you its snp! snp! snp! dave lots of people in scotland don't support the snp what about their views
137

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 14:01:23
79 - Scotland is a component part of the UK. If the union were to be dissolved England would face precisely the same problems. You can go all around the houses discussing the economics of independence it doesn't alter the basic case behind it.
138

Alan B,

27/11/2008 14:03:32
#Nikostratos

That really does not make sense.

"But still they persist in their vain futile and ultimately undemocratic ways. "

Having a referendum is not undemocratic. Undemocratic is not having a referendum or referendums labour style like 79s where you need 80% of the vote on a 50% turnout to win.

"How can they demand any fiscal control which is in the constitutional remit of Westminster when they have no mandate to do so."

They cannot forse the issue but they can argue the case. That is democracy. Even Calman is reviewing scotland fiscal arrangments. Wendy wanted to change to some sort of fiscal federalism and the lib dems want much of the fiscal powers devolved.

Opinion polls suggest over 70% of the scottish public wanted significantly more powers so it does seem there is demand for change. What that change is, is another matter and part of the reason for calman.
139

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27/11/2008 14:07:49
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Brian Hill,

27/11/2008 14:07:56
#24 Traquir. The trouble with you Traquir is you keep blowing cosy London Labour propaganda posts right out of the water with your constant reference to facts and worse still, those blo#dy tinyurl things to back your facts up!

Don't you realise that many of us enjoy being lulled into restful sleep with fairy tales from Rufus and sm753 and all those other lovely Scotland hating pro London Labour types?

Shame on you, let us sleep, per chance to dream....
141

David MacVicar,

web 27/11/2008 14:08:23
Nikostratos, fair point, if thats what I only said. Except I did not "propose the snp", try using my full quote:
"The SNP want full independence but fiscal control is all that is required in the short term to run Scotland properly in a devolved way that actually makes it accountable."

Fiscal control would OBVIOUSLY be to the parliament, not he SNP (though they happen to be the government), if you understood otherwise from my post then next time I shall try to be clearer.

So lets be clear - I find the SNP participating in the GERS exercise in any shape or form a JOKE. They did however get elected with a central policy for a referendum and while independence is not a prevailing view in parliament, greater autonomy IS. No autonomy without accountability, no accountability without fiscal control. Clear enough for you?

So I didn't say snp, snp, snp - you did, so please stop putting words in my mouth. How about convincing me why Barnett and GERS are better than fiscal control instead of arguing about the snp?
142

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27/11/2008 14:11:30
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143

P Rayner.,

Latin America. 27/11/2008 14:14:20
ALAN B. As I indicated I am unable to predict whether or not Scotland would be better off independent of the Union. There may be sound economic arguments for separation or there may not. I´m not qualified to say. However, since Scotland is a member of the Union by free will it seems to me the only criterion required, in so far as Scots exclusively are concerned vis a vis separation, is an irresistable demand. It is for me, nor I suspect other members of the Union, not an issue of best timing or economics . If that demand exists, is seen to exist, well lets have a referendum and soon. As I mentioned earlier I believe there is no evidence that Scots wish to separate . Being English and British I frankly wish, for many reasons, the continuance of the Union, a Union in the interests of all parts of the Union with equal opportunity for all.I am not in favour of devolution seeing it merely devisive and a clever device for an extension of self indulgence, an extension of the gravy train.
144

David MacVicar,

27/11/2008 14:16:02
180 sm753,

Oh really? "While this current GERS publication represents a significant step forward from previous reports, the development of GERS is an ongoing process"

Imagine running a small business like that, it would make Enron proud - its a joke.
No -its a steaming smelly pile of uk driven, snp backed excrement.
145

brownlie,

27/11/2008 14:16:23
182 sm753

If you think that Union is Best has any connection with the other two mentioned you are not as bright as you consider yourself to be.
146

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27/11/2008 14:24:35
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brownlie,

27/11/2008 14:28:38
192 sm753

We are not amused!

193 sm753

You really are not as bright, are you?
148

Nikostratos,,

27/11/2008 14:28:58
#183 Alan

referendums are not how we choose to govern ourselves we elect representatives to act for us within the current constitutional and legislative framework.

Referendums are at best an indication of the possible aspirations of those who cast a vote.
What of those who do not wish to make any of the given choices in a referendum are you proposing if a small minority of people take part in plebiscite and gain a majority. they then are in a position to overrule the constitutionally elected representatives.

they are neither legal binding and their results are only advisory.

And you like Dave to do not ask for constitutional power sovereignty(the peoples) if you will to be borrowed for the electoral term by the Elected representatives at the Independent Scottish parliament.

But for sovereignty to be given the snp which is a very different type of Governance.
149

Scunnert,

27/11/2008 14:30:42
Salmond flayed Gray alive at FMQ's. Gray looked like a novice whose claims to the leadership of "Scottish Labour" were blown out of the water by his own party when London took control of his local constituency. He really is out of his depth - reduced as he was to explaining Labour's half billion cut in the Scottish Block grant.

Auntie Annabell was getting a wee bit shrill today - her party are more of an irrelevance than the LibDems.
150

P Rayner.,

Latin America. 27/11/2008 14:33:54
JACKIE PRIEST. I´m not quite sure that the SNP is the biggest politicalforce in Scotland. Even if it were I´m not sure this would indicate PLENTY of evidence for a wish to separate. Maybe you could enlighten me? A couple of things too. What do you mean CONSTRAINED to join the Union? If you mean forced surely this contraint, if resented, could have been reversed at all subsequent general elections.That being so I suggest PLENTY of evidence against separation. If Scots want separation they merely need to vote for it.
151

Scunnert,

27/11/2008 14:37:02
Darling and Broon's plans to "save civilisation" are unravelling already. Part of their problem is that their priority is to salvage their own and their party's power - everything else is secondary.
152

Alan Reid,

Skive 27/11/2008 14:39:29
Same old lies from thsi rag. I guess the thinkng behind it is if you repeat the same lie over and over then the people will begin to believe it.
what do you say Rufus? Also you have not replied to my post of a few days ago, why? Or did you not have an answer.
153

57vintage,

Keith 27/11/2008 14:40:04
#183, the percentage figure of the elctorate inserted into an amendment to The Scotland Act 1978 at the instigation of George Cunningham was 70%, not 80%. The Yes vote polled 51.6% of the turnout. A small point, but I'm sure that you wouldn't want any of the less-cerebral posters than yourself to use this erroneous figure in future arguments for and against independence.

Anyone who was around for the '79 referendum, especially in the Yes For Scotland campaign will know who Rob Brown is and the influence he used to wield not only in the SNP, but in the general independence/devolution movement.

Just don't confuse him with the late Ron Brown, the maverick Leith Labour MP!
154

57vintage,

Keith 27/11/2008 14:46:03
Sorry.

Typo.

The threshhold in the Scotland Act 1978 was 40%, not 70%!!
155

Alan Reid,

Skive 27/11/2008 14:52:21
200 & 201 If the English are so fed up with us, by that I mean feeding us, paying for us, fighting and giving their lives for us, then why does not the English merely vote for their independance instead for complaining all the time, it's very simple.
Jackie: Spot as usual.
156

Rufus T. Firefly,

27/11/2008 14:53:30
"203 Alan Reid,Skive 27/11/2008 14:39:29
Same old lies from thsi rag. I guess the thinkng behind it is if you repeat the same lie over and over then the people will begin to believe it.
what do you say Rufus? Also you have not replied to my post of a few days ago, why? Or did you not have an answer."

Sorry Alan, but I had some drying paint to watch. Did not get round to it.

What was the question again?
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27/11/2008 15:04:10
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David MacVicar,

web 27/11/2008 15:04:52
The SNP are politicans no more trustworthy than anyone else - except they at least try to develop policies for Scotland.

Anyway, there is a gaping maw in your argument.
The SNP were elected with a majortiy of votes by the public. They were elected to minority Government by the parliament.

They had a core policy of having a referendum during the campaign. So a referendum will only happen because of the electoral process in the first place.

On the other hand the unionists had no mandate whatsoever to create their wee exclusive constitutional review, it wasn't a policy. It suddenly became an imperative presided over by the UK Government who represent the interests of 90% of people external to Scotland. But lets not dwell on that - we know all about democracy, UK style.
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27/11/2008 15:08:44
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Scunnert,

27/11/2008 15:10:37
Speaking on Darling's emergency budget Alex Salmond said:

"A tax giveaway next year followed by spending cuts in 2010. From John Maynard Keynes to Milton Friedman with no intervening period whatsoever. From New Labour to Hard Labour."
161

Nikostratos,,

27/11/2008 15:11:10
#206

tell me jackie what do we do with the smallest political force in scotland?
You seem to be the embodiment of the "Tyranny of the majority"

And as for the founding of the union the constitution at that time was followed right or wrong it was at least constitutional.


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David MacVicar,

27/11/2008 15:11:59
sorry 213 was to Nikostratos
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morris,

edinburgh 27/11/2008 15:14:34
19

I have to say in all honesty, (and I have known Robert McIntyre,Winnie Ewing and have had contact at some point with at least 50% of the current Party National Executive), and I can say with a clear conscience also, WHO?
He is NOT a prominent member and I cannot find anyone who has even heard of him.
In any case he is an individual and he is outnumbered by thousands of members who disagree with him. What is really interesting is HOW did the Hootsman discover what this "prominent nationalist " thinks,when those of us who actually hold memberships and are active,dont even know he exists!

Prominent? You will be telling us next that this is a newspaper!
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Nikostratos,,

27/11/2008 15:16:29
#215 Jakie Priest

wikipedia widely condemned by the leading academics as inaccurate and misleading.
students have been requested not use this as a referenced resource in their essays.

no wonder you do though
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27/11/2008 15:20:11
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27/11/2008 15:20:41
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P Rayner.,

Latin America. 27/11/2008 15:22:44
JACKIE PRIEST. While taking note of your assertions I urge you to revisit them, failure to do so may prevent you from objectively judging the pro´s and con´s of separation. In particular,look again at your assertions vis the age of democracy and the so called increasing tendency towards independence. In so far as THAT tendency is concerned the evidence suggest a waning. As I´ve often repeated the only VALID evidence is that which is given at election time. Incidentally my hunch is and its merely a hunch, a greater proportion of English voters favour English independence than do Scots favour theirs.
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I.Wright,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 15:24:49
Anyone who is not a Nat (i.e. most of the population) knows well that there is no chance whatever of Salmond winning a referendum in 2010. Which is why he will be spending the next year and a half assiduously trying to think up a cunning way of allowing the opposition parties to block the referendum legislation so he doesn't have to hold it while blaming them for their 'undemocratic' ways. It beggars belief that there are nat fanatics here who actually think there will be a referendum and that they would have the slightest chance of winning it. They need to look around them: take the Basques, who have had a devolved nationalist government for years and are no nearer persuading the populace to break away from Spain.

The SNP's madly self-destructive Local Income Tax - every bit as politically lethal as Thatcher's Poll Tax - will do for them anyway. The 2006 election will look like their high-water mark in years to come.
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Scunnert,

27/11/2008 15:25:31
Secret union deal to save Labour from bankruptcy

Unite halted Labour crisis by guaranteeing its finances in a deal the party is refusing to make public, The Times has learnt
171

Scunnert,

27/11/2008 15:27:14
Labour Party agrees to delay repayment of £9.2m loans
By Ben Russell, Home Affairs Correspondent
Thursday, 27 November 2008

The Labour Party shook off the spectre of financial collapse yesterday by agreeing a two-year "interest rate holiday" with seven millionaire businessmen who extended the terms of their controversial loans.
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Scunnert,

27/11/2008 15:31:07
Labour can't even ballance their own books but are in charge of the UK economy. Things can only get worse.
173

AJM,

27/11/2008 15:34:49
Still no SNP poster is able to address what a senior SNP member has written about the direction that "Have a bet for me to win" Alex is taking the party, when some are beginning to think it is a mistake.

Nope Greenland thats the topic.
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 15:34:49
I wonder what unite got for their money. They are very pro nuclear.
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27/11/2008 15:35:02
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Arfur,

27/11/2008 15:36:10
what happened to the story re LIT? Could it be that this rag was getting slated on the comments so much that it has elbowed it?
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 15:36:32
229 Why should we care what some nonentity thinks ?

Who is begining to think the referendum is a mistake in the nationalist camp. List them.
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Scunnert,

27/11/2008 15:43:50
All we need now is for Sam the Millerman to join scum753 and the party will be complete.
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Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 27/11/2008 15:45:07
230# Observer I,
Tony Woodley, joint secretary of Unite would love to be Lord Woodley of Wallasey when he retires in 18 months.
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Scunnert,

27/11/2008 15:45:31
I wonder what happened to Churchill W.?

Anyway - Ah'm aff - cannae be spendin mah days teaching basic truths to the ESN.
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AJM,

27/11/2008 15:45:57
#233 Rob Brown, is prepared to go in print about it. Well others are too spineless to say anything yet, yep yet, against the mighty AS.

Jakoe P the rise of the party recently is allied to the perception of AS, when he went before your party was sinking, thats why he came back. AS not there, whi is there, Swinney?
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 15:49:58
239, they'll be looking for more than that. All will be revealed in due course I suppose.
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 15:52:16
241 Not an answer.

Who is Rob Brown anyway, he seems to be a self appointed well known nationalist. You don't think the fact he is a former media editor at the SoS has anything to do with this story ?

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27/11/2008 15:53:44
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I.Wright,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 15:55:32
Is self-delusion the defining Nat characteristic?

#234
"polls which nevertheless are hovering at between 31 to 51% in favour of independence over the course of this year. It wasn't long ago that pro-independence was around 20 to 30%. Long term shows steady growth"

Nonsense. The polls have shown support for separation at around 30% for years. They haven't 'hovered' close to 51% for more than the odd nano-second.

"The kind of apologist, self-hating, self-ridiculoing Scots you see on these notice boards is an effect of swallowing the unionist cringe factor".

More nonsense. It's an abiding myth among Nats, part of their comfort blanket I suppose, to maintain that being in favour of Scotland remaining within Britain has something to do with 'self-hate'. No - it is to do with being mature and having more important priorities in life than identifying with some infantile obsession with nationality.

"anti-Scottish unionist cringers who seemingly still cling on to a dream of british empire that not even anyone does anymore in England".

More babyish claptrap. It's common among nationalists the world over to denounce those who disagree with them as 'unpatriotic' - even 'traitors' in the more extreme forms of nationalism. No-one intelligent takes that seriously. The majority of the Scottish population, who are not Nats by the way, do not 'cling on to a dream of british empire' Get real. Until you understand why people would oppose you you have absolutely no chance of persuading them otherwise. Until you drop your comfort blanket of blaming their indifference to your views on some giant media conspiracy you have not a hope in hell of getting anywhere close to independence.


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Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 27/11/2008 15:58:34
Rufus T Firefly,
Good day Rufus, I trust you are well, do you think Union is Best has the same DNA as the recently despatched Aberdeenshire Scot ? .
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27/11/2008 16:00:04
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Embra Don,

27/11/2008 16:00:16
I would be happy to be poorer outside the union - though I don't believe for a moment that it would be the case.
Can anyone come up with a single example of a country which has achieved independence then wanted to become subservient again?
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 16:01:22
246 Are all unionists sexist or is it just you ?
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Nikostratos,,

27/11/2008 16:04:49
#243

"He asked Sulla to bear in mind the fact that more people worshipped the rising than the setting sun, implying that while his own power was on the increase, that of Sulla was growing less and less." Plutarch, Life, 14.

the fall of the House of Salmond?
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27/11/2008 16:06:25
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The Master,

27/11/2008 16:10:19
#166 Alan B: In regard to point 1 of your post, what reason do you have to think that the Scottish Economy wouldn't continue to "fail" outwith "the union"? I just know that you'd be forced to eat your words if (heavens forbid) Scotland ever did become independent and (deep down) I think you do as well. Am I right or am I right!

To be completely honest, I just worry that your nationalism is based on some Tartan Tory desire to grow a Scottish Economy that is just incapable of growing. (I've been in the pub for the last two hours, but am I right or am I right!)
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27/11/2008 16:11:01
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Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 27/11/2008 16:13:39
B256# Rufus T Firefly, Aberdeen Scot sounds even more scary than Marky Bhoy. He was threatening suicide if Independence was not forthcoming. I offered to send him my Tranmere Rovers greatest games video to cheer him up but he did not respond.
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27/11/2008 16:13:42
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27/11/2008 16:17:44
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27/11/2008 16:18:46
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The Master,

27/11/2008 16:20:21
#172 Rufus: for me, the plight of Scottish clubs in Europe is a microcosm of the case against separation: being excluded from the English Premiership, Celtic simply don't have the resources to compete with the top European clubs and they have become a small time club (while their level of support would suggest that they should be up there competing with Man U).

A separatist Scottish football league is as big a waste of space as (heavens forbid) a separatist Scotland would be: end of!
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27/11/2008 16:20:54
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27/11/2008 16:21:45
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27/11/2008 16:23:48
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Queen D,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 16:26:01
The Maddox piece about tax and the boy wonders of industry has lost all comment.
I'll say again , the Federation of Small Businesses has yet to consult my husband or any other small business owner that we know ,about our views on LIT.
Misrepresenting the views of those who subscribe might make them a tad angry.
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27/11/2008 16:27:16
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27/11/2008 16:32:31
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Jimmy Le Pie,

27/11/2008 16:33:50
Good to see Alex, our First Minister, back to his storming best, wiping the floor with those non-entities that are laughingly called the opposition, at FMQ's.

Iain Grey looked like a rabbit caught in a cars headlights, Mrs Goldie gibbered as usual and Tavish might as well stayed at home.

Well done again Alex.
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The Dark Side,

27/11/2008 16:40:13
#186: hiya, Jackie Priest! When will you finally twig that AM2 was replaced as inhouse poster following the "Candy-man" fiaco?
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 16:40:40
277 Sailing into a pefect storm has never been part of good seamanship either.
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27/11/2008 16:43:14
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Miss H,

27/11/2008 16:44:06
277 Are you really serious?

Do you really believe that if matters such as defence, foreign affairs, economic policy, taxation, defence, energy, transport, broadcasting and so on were fully controlled by the Scottish Parliament people would see no difference?

In other words you think the Scottish Parliament would vote the same way on things as Westminster does and have the same priorities?

I am sure you don’t really believe that.
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Miss H,

27/11/2008 16:47:18
271 No the essence of unionism is that Westminster is the supreme decision maker over Scotland.

Independence would mean transferring decision making powers over Scotland from Westminster to Edinburgh.

It's not really a nuanced or sophisticated argument about identity.

It is very simply about where political power lies - London or Edinburgh.


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27/11/2008 16:50:15
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27/11/2008 16:59:45
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 17:00:03
''and the greater British ideal has been synthesised from the cultures of all its components''.

Sounds like a stirring rallying cry for the British Empire, last seen invading Iraq and preparing to renew Trident.

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27/11/2008 17:04:15
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27/11/2008 17:04:48
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27/11/2008 17:08:46
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Miss H,

27/11/2008 17:09:06
287 They don’t understand the anti-Scottish argument. I am actually highlighted as a supreme villain in this debate on AM2’s website because I said – and I quote – ‘Non-nationalists are less ‘Scottish’ than nationalists ... Bashir Ahmad for example is more Scottish than Wendy Alexander. He may have been born and brought up in Pakistan but he wants Scotland to be an independent self-governing sovereign state and she doesn’t. That makes him more Scottish than she is...”

That as I recall was in a debate about whether nationalism is racist which of course it isn’t. But the other point that he doesn’t get is that I am talking about the choices we make when we vote for politicians and political parties.

The SNP is by definition a more Scottish party than Labour or Tories or Lib Dems because it is only a Scottish party. The same is true of the SSP/Solidarity/ Scottish Greens because they are wholly Scottish.

When people vote they have a choice between political parties who only want to govern Scotland – or have an influence on the governance of Scotland – or political parties which are UK wide. Those UK parties will never prioritise Scotland’s needs and nor should they. It would in fact be wrong to place the needs of the 8% of the UK which is Scotland above the other 92%.

So if you want to vote for a party that will prioritise Scotland then you need to vote for a Scottish party. Politicians who tell you that they can be both Scottish and British are talking rot. If you are a British politician you will put the interests of Britain first – even if that conflicts with the interests of Scotland. That is what the Union is about.

They don’t like to admit that though.
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The Master,

27/11/2008 17:13:40
#285 Spook: as a fellow footie fan (footie's too lowbrow for most of the Scotsman reading snobs on here, but let's leave it at that!) let's here you refute my post at #267 then!

As my one of my trolls ("The Master Ate Media 1) would say": I CHALLENGE!
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Miss H,

27/11/2008 17:14:01
304 Can you explain what you mean by that? Which of your relatives will get divorced if Scottish independence happens - and why?

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27/11/2008 17:15:05
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27/11/2008 17:17:25
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Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 17:25:37
What happened to the other thread?
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Miss H,

27/11/2008 17:37:33
310 Well I think you are missing the point spectactularly. Which is possibly the fault of the SNP. If you think the SNP is obsessed with defining a seperate identity the party certainly has failed. Although I suspect that is just your perception of the SNP rather than the reality.

I also disagree that things like the economy, tax, pensions, benefits and so on only matter to a small number of people. I think they natter to most people in Scotland but for the most part they feel pretty powerless to change things. Because they are.

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The Master,

27/11/2008 17:45:42
#315 Spook:

Point 1. So what if the SPL's one of the oldest leagues in the world? It's stifling Celtic's development and the vast majority of fans would gladly see the back of it if this meant that they could splash out up to £30 million on one single player and raise the profile of Scottish football by competing with the top European clubs (you Nats are so small time, it's sad!)

Point 2: why do Celtic make persistent overtures to joint the EPL, if they don’t' feel excluded from it? As far as I can see, the only reason they're not in it is that clubs at the top of the Championship (or the bottom of the EPL) fear catastrophic loss of revenue if Celtic were allowed to join.

The Master's on firm ground on this one, and I think you know it!

Btw, how interesting that you admit to trolling under a multiple moniker as "The Master Ate Media 1". Multiple moniker trolls such as yourself really are beyond the pale!
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Truely English,

27/11/2008 17:47:55
312
We must thank the Scots like for John Bull for all the British patriotism over the past 100 plus years. It was the Scots who wanted to get rid of any feelings of being Scots as they wished to be part of the British Empire.

For that we are all grateful with the work they have done in binding our nation together under one language and culture; the English one which is naturally the one all Scots aspire in education and culture.

Let us leave behind the notion that anything but a united country with all the freedoms we have could be bettered any way. After all it was the Scots who made us British even to the extent that I now can wear the Kilt and the Tartan if I so wish and go to Scottish Country Dancing lessons as I did many years ago while overseas.

The differences are simply cosmetic I am glad to say
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Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 17:51:59
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

"Broon pledges Woolworths support."

Plonker.
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Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 17:53:21
I note our dumpling (Truely {sic} English) has arrived.
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27/11/2008 18:04:00
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Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 18:07:41
323 Football suggestion

Welsh clubs play in the various English Leagues without a problem.
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27/11/2008 18:07:58
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The Master,

27/11/2008 18:13:24
#323 sm753: interesting post: I'd thought that the only way to get the OF into the EPL was either for them to buy up a club in administration or for them to bite the bullet and join the Conference.

I fail to see how the OF entering English football would endanger the national team, given that Wales seem to manage perfectly well with teams competing in English leagues: it just doesn’t make logical (or indeed legal!) sense.
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Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 18:15:13
328

I was referring to the creation of the Welsh league and the reason for its set up.
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Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 18:17:03
sm753

As well as being a KIA about all matters politic, you also appear to have some knowledge about matters sporting. Is there any topic you AREN'T master of?
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Rufus T. Firefly,

27/11/2008 18:24:03
#266 TRAQUIR, TEAM LEADER

Imagine taking the time to search through all these posts to get a collection of insults against me.

You are a bigger idiot than I gave you credit for.

LMAO
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27/11/2008 18:41:32
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Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 18:44:42
Who is AM2?
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Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 27/11/2008 18:44:58
Have just watched our esteemed First Minister on BBC Scotland. What a numpty. Scotland deserves better.
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27/11/2008 18:46:25
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Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 18:51:21
Mar 24 2008 Gordon Brown vows, "I'll fight to save the union"

Nov 27 2008 Gordon Brown vows, "I'll fight to save Woolworths."
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Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 18:53:41
Patrick O'Reilly, Coatbridge (says it all really)

"Have just watched our esteemed First Minister on BBC Scotland. What a numpty. Scotland deserves better."

You'd know of course - coming from Coatbridge. If God wanted to give the world an enema he'd stick the tube in Coatbridge.

Talking of tubes - good evening.
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Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 18:54:14
I really don't like Coatbridge. It's a hell-hole.
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Rufus T. Firefly,

27/11/2008 18:55:08
#342 Patrick, yes I did see Salmond on First Ministers Questions today.

His Boorish behaviour really is abhorrent.

He was on the ropes throughout.

His replies became more and more desperate as the half hour wore on. So much so that he had to resort to taking the mick out of Mike Rumbles name.

He is nothing but an embarrassment.

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Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 18:59:20
"COATBRIDGE has received widespread support after the town was nominated for a notorious award.

Following an announcement that the town is in the running for the infamous Carbuncle Awards, a number of Advertiser readers from as far afield as Australia have been in touch to voice their support for Coatbridge."
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27/11/2008 19:00:37
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Jimmy Le Pie,

27/11/2008 19:03:44
I do laugh when I hear all the clowns saying that the Old Firm should be playing in the Premier League.

As the Premier League is wholly foreign owned, would these foreign owners wish their vast investments threatened by hoards of drunken bigots wrecking their towns and cities?

They would also be seriously confused seeing the Chairman of Celtic, John Reid, and the Queens Enforcer, Jim Murphy wrapping themselves in the Irish Tricolour whilst burning the Butchers Apron one minute, then wrapping themselves in the Butchers Apron and singing God Save The Queen!!

When is Britishness Day???

When am I getting my free laptop???

When's my hoose being insulated???
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Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 19:04:44
... and the winner was - COATBRIDGE.
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Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 19:05:50
Rufus

How many monikers have you had /still have?
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Robert Mason,

Larkhall 27/11/2008 19:11:35
Yes, Salmond's "performance" left a lot to be desired. Not what we expect from a First Minister. The rumours persist that he's off to manage the Trump International project at Menie. Perhaps only then will Scotland move on.
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Jimmy Le Pie,

27/11/2008 19:12:09
I've a question for all the warmongering Unionists.

How many members of the UK parliament, who voted for the illegal war in Iraq, have sons or daughters serving with the armed forces in Iraq or Afghanistan???

Take your time now!!
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Jayne_P,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 19:12:24
I just can't understand why people who claim to be true Scots are so keen to keep Scotland dependent.

The drive for independence transcends the paranoid rantings about 'tartan tax' etc, spouted by those pro-dependence supporters. The pride I would feel for a self-determining Scotland would far outweigh any negatives. Sure it will take a while and maybe a bit upheaval to establish an independent Scotland, which is why the pro-dependence supporters wish to maintain the status quo. A lot easier just to have the'daddy' government in London look after the 'important' things that would be beyond Scotland's capabilities rather than to have our own autonomy.

257

Jayne_P,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 19:13:01
I just can't understand why people who claim to be true Scots are so keen to keep Scotland dependent.

The drive for independence transcends the paranoid rantings about 'tartan tax' etc, spouted by those pro-dependence supporters. The pride I would feel for a self-determining Scotland would far outweigh any negatives. Sure it will take a while and maybe a bit upheaval to establish an independent Scotland, which is why the pro-dependence supporters wish to maintain the status quo. A lot easier just to have the'daddy' government in London look after the 'important' things that would be beyond Scotland's capabilities rather than to have our own autonomy.

258

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/11/2008 19:13:35
Anyone remember this famous posting???

British Pride,

11/04/2008 18:16:47

553. Whoa! Great! Such typical SNP incite. Fantastic! I only post as Highland Mighty, can you say the same you cyber-nay???
259

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 27/11/2008 19:14:18
Since assuming power in May 2007, Alex Salmond has put on 33lbs. Why?
260

Jayne_P,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 19:16:18
I just can't understand why people who claim to be true Scots are so keen to keep Scotland dependent.

The drive for independence transcends the paranoid rantings about 'tartan tax' etc, spouted by those pro-dependence supporters. The pride I would feel for a self-determining Scotland would far outweigh any negatives. Sure it will take a while and maybe a bit upheaval to establish an independent Scotland, which is why the pro-dependence supporters wish to maintain the status quo. A lot easier just to have the'daddy' government in London look after the 'important' things that would be beyond Scotland's capabilities rather than to have our own autonomy.

ps The SNP saved me £2000 when they got rid of the 'tuition fees by the back door' graduate endowment, instigated by the previous Labour administration under the guise of 'free education.'
261

Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 19:17:17
Thanks for answering my question Rufus!

Lance Boyle, Robert Mason indeed.
262

Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 19:18:30
Hey Lance - great debate no?
263

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27/11/2008 19:31:12
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Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 19:35:27
Rufus - you are ALWAYS on here. You have multiple log-ins. Maybe other posters are using his "schoolboy phrases" to muddy the waters.
265

Rufus T. Firefly,

27/11/2008 19:36:42
Hugh Ros, I only have one sign on, on this forum. Only ever had one. Why would I want any more?
266

Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 19:36:47
Rufus

You usually manage to post an hour or two before anyone else. "Another" poster used to do this.
267

Hugh Roscombe,

27/11/2008 19:37:41
367

Rubbish. You are legion. Good night.
268

Rufus T. Firefly,

27/11/2008 19:55:14
Good night for British Clubs in Europe so far. Tottenham Hotspur and Manchester City both won.
269

,

27/11/2008 19:58:01
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270

,

27/11/2008 20:03:10
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271

AJM,

27/11/2008 20:13:44
Been away for a few hours, still cannot find any Nat willing to discuss the subject of this page, even the sensible posters such as Miss H seem to have completely ignored the story.

Why let a article by a SNP supporter, discussing how they are approaching the referendum issue get in the way of SNP posters discussion on dependency and daddy governments.
272

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/11/2008 20:21:54
#371

You do mean foreign owned British clubs, don't you, fielding mostly foreign players??

Manchester City are owned by a Middle East sheik. Were you not criticising Alex for meeting with Middle East financiers??

What was your favourite goal of all time??

Comrade Broon's was Gazza's against Scotland.

Mine was Maradona's against England.
273

Rufus T. Firefly,

27/11/2008 20:23:52
#373 Yes you keep wondering.
274

Rufus T. Firefly,

27/11/2008 20:28:37
375 Mine is Gary Caldwells goal on Tuesday.

That one cheered up nearly all of Scotland.
275

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/11/2008 20:29:35
From a real newspaper, The Times,

Peter Riddell

Support for Gordon Brown as the right leader to deal with the recession has fallen sharply over the past fortnight, a Populus poll for The Times has found. It shows that only just over a third of British voters think the Government's measures to boost the economy will make things better in either the short or long term.
276

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 20:30:06
374 The subject of the article is a self appointed ''prominent nationalist'' who worked for Scotland on Sunday.

There is no pressure to shelve the referendum.

Would you like to discuss that ?

ps I don't know who's faking who, and who has multiple monikers, and I don't care, but there is only one Wilhelm.
277

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 20:31:19
Wilhelm where are you, you grumpy old git.
278

AJM,

27/11/2008 20:38:49
#379 Thanks for at least offering an opinion on the article. I do not think that an obligatory of rubbishing the person who dares critise the great leader, even from within.

However I agree that there is no real pressure to put off the referendum and that pressure if there is any is not significant. What is significant is there is starting to be a drip of anti AS talk, especially among those that see real dangers in his grip on the party and the perception that it is the AS party not the SNP.
279

Anec Dotal,

Ukraine 27/11/2008 20:41:07
When we have referendum, we vote to leave USSR. Bad move. Before, we fight with Russians. Now, we fight with each other. Scotland - beware.
280

Anec Dotal,

Ukraine 27/11/2008 20:42:14
Alex Salmond I like. He right capitalist, yes? He good pal of Donald Trump.
281

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 20:43:04
382 Do you know anyone who is involved in the SNP ? I am not a party member, but I know a lot of people who are. There is no cult of personality surrounding Salmond, you are barking up the wrong tree.
282

Truely English,

27/11/2008 20:55:38
It is clear that the Scots and the English are the same people and have been for centuries. We like and do the same sport, television programmes, cultural activities, education system and values, popular musical culture, same civilised habits and a liking for money, lots of money and position. Otherwise we would not have had such a good partnership during the British Empire.

Why do the Scots like to make out they are different from the English people when they are clearly the same in Edinburgh and Bath or Glasgow and Liverpool or Newcastle and Aberdeen.
283

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 21:15:40
Far from retreating from the referendum because of the current financial crisis, I think the SNP should go on the attack. If I can borrow a phrase, the SNP should be painting the advantages of independence in primary, visionary colours, and retreat from the policy of demonstrating good governance in Holyrood alone. That is by definition self-limiting.

There has actually never been a better time to illustrate the advantages that independence will bring to Scotland.
284

Yr Awel,

Here & There 27/11/2008 22:02:56
J. Priest 213

Typical of your rhetoric. So the present and the future must be a reproduction of the past? To say nothing of your biased approach to 1707 and the popular backlash that never was... I wonder why...

Miss H 284

Different priorities? But people then would have to be different? Are they?
My priority is to retain (at least) my three political identities: Scot, UK, EU (with nothing set in stone about the balance between them). Thanks very much!
285

Truth Teller www.oilofscotland.org,

http://www.oilofscotland.org 27/11/2008 22:55:15
The fact that is all every economy in the World is giving to take a hit. Therefore Scotland should claim the UK's largest Industry for its own "North Sea Oil"

Timing of a referendum is a good question. Until 2010 Gordon Brown has bought the UK economy a possible leg up at the cost of £1.2 trillion national debt ~ post 2010. So would the Scots not be wise to jump ship as the England sinks. After all a 1.2 trillion / 60 million population x the 5 million population of Scotland is 100 Billion national debt should the national debt get that high.

For more information visit

http://www.oilofscotland.org or if you support the Scottish Labour Party visit http://www.scottish-labour-party.co.uk
286

Truth Teller www.oilofscotland.org,

http://www.oilofscotland.org 27/11/2008 22:59:39
The case for Independence is very simple. IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT A BIG SURPLUS

1. Full Control - opposed to No control to the 12 Billion that Scottish Oil Production generates, that is £2300 for every man woman and child. (Scotland, the only Country in the World to strike oil and stay poor ?) Even if oil revenue drops to 8Billion that is still an extra £1533 for every man woman and child that resides in Scotland.

(In the last 30 years the Scot's have handed another Countries Government 250 Billion from Scottish Oil Revenue, that is £48,000 for every man woman and child)

2. A Scottish voice in World Politics ? In a Independent Scotland, Scotland's 59 MP's would not have to share an eleventh of the political table with other Countries decision makers.

3. A say over whether Scots are forced to pay for Trident, just because it lives Scotland and whether our Granite Mountains continue to be used as secret a Nuclear Dustbin for radioactive materials.

4. More than a 1 to 12 voice in a Parliament located in another Country to over rule decision like :- (in 2008 Forcing HBOS to merge with Lloyds TSB) ~ (2008 secret plans to dump 250,000 tonnes of low radioactive waste from the London 2012 Olympic site in a Landfill in Falkirk) ~ (2008 raiding the Scottish Lottery fund for the London Olympic Games) ~ (in 1999 moving Scotland's Marine boundaries from Berwick-upon-Tweed to Carnoustie making 6,000 miles of Scottish Sea English)

5. In a Independent Scotland, the Scottish Labour Party / Conservative Party / Liberal Party would be controlled by Scots and not English Puppeteers. Allowing them to concentrate on Scotland's 5 Million population opposed to leaving the plight of the Scottish people to the English who have 55 million of a population to please to keep the 523 English seats in Westminster.

6. Scottish politics would lack the back stabbing - cover up - lying - commands from South of the border, making inter party agreements much easier and transparent. (re
287

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/11/2008 23:04:26
Just watching Douglas Alexander getting a torrid time on Question Time.

Looks like no one believes that Comrade Broon and Captain Darling have saved the world economies.

No surprise there then!
288

Truth Teller www.oilofscotland.org,

http://www.oilofscotland.org 27/11/2008 23:11:31
6. Scottish politics would lack the back stabbing - cover up - lying - commands from South of the border, making inter party agreements much easier and transparent. (read the Mc Crone for proof of deceptive tactics of Westminster in relation what should be a very bouyant Scottish Economy)

7. In a Independent Scotland nothing much would change ~ same Monarch - postal system - rail networks - prisons - same money - same local taxes etc ~ The Population of Scotland, could still, if they prefer refer to themselves as Britons or British. As British Isles are the name of a landmass not a Country.

8. Scotland would be able to have full control over its revenues and not be ripped off ~ for at the moment Scotland is short changed by (2.9 Billion 2005 - 1.8 Billion 2006) form what the GERS report says it has been given.

9. The Union has severed it purpose now it is also a financial liability, in 1979 52% of Scottish voters said YES to a Devolved Scottish Government, Labour said NO then 43 to 19 Scottish MP tried to repel Westminster undemocratic NO decision and again were told No.

10. Scotland could continue to champion green energy without obstacles and unfair taxes being imposed on the green energy industry by Nuclear & Coal Burning Loving Westminster

For more information visit

http://www.oilofscotland.org or if you support the Scottish Labour Party visit http://www.scottish-labour-party.co.uk
289

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/11/2008 23:19:56
Spook,

Got to agree.

Wee Dougie is right out of his depth, again.

This is the first time I've seen Adam Price and I'm very impressed.
A politician that truly believes in what he says.
290

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/11/2008 23:33:13
Just watched him make a complete €rse of himself while talking about prostitution!!!

What an utter fool he is.

Hopefully an unemployed fool soon!!
291

Royster,

27/11/2008 23:47:34
Next year is going to be fun as another plank of the SNP's economic blueprint for independence is going to go up in smoke. Next year will be the turn of the euro. In 2009, Italian government bonds to the tune of 300bn euros, or 20% of the country's GDP, are set to mature. Refinancing is going to be very expensive under these conditions and, unlike in the past when Italy could simply print lire and devalue its currency, it has no alternative other than to cut spending or default as the printing presses for the euro are in Frankfurt. If Italy falls out of the euro zone then so will Spain and Greece and possibly Ireland. Watch this space and hang on to your sterling.
292

Royster,

27/11/2008 23:51:51
#414. Then what's the point in independence?
293

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27/11/2008 23:55:19
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28/11/2008 00:02:44
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Percy Stafford,

Keep Scotland in the Union, England will prevail 28/11/2008 00:51:44
Royster.

I commend your posts, and it truely pleases me to see someone resident in that northern region that displays such pride in the union.

We simply cannot let Scotland tear apart the union, England must stand united in this economic climate, a Scotland out of England would just disappear and go back to its insular tribal ways.

With all the blood spilled from all over the empire, now split into independent countries, all that remains tall and undivided is England.
296

Percy Stafford,

Keep Scotland in the Union, England will prevail 28/11/2008 01:00:53

Truely English..

Bravo old boy, the Scots are just inbred Englishmen but they hark back to being insular Vikings, waffle if you ask me.
297

Number 6,

Germany 28/11/2008 09:38:50
How will all these gibbering scottish unionistas feel when Liebour are destroyed at the next election.

The difference between the scottish and Englandshire media 's take on this goverment is remarkable. The papers down there are filled with examples of Liebour lies and financial incompitence. They are heading for probably the most humiliating defeat in their history.

Read the scottish media and you would think there is practically nothing wrong, that everything under Liebour is rosy and should NEVER be questioned.A terrible standard, right down there with the trash that passes as media in the US.

After the next election, maybe a few more scottish unionistas will "get it, " although, until we raise standards of education, so lovingly destroyed under labour, we may be fighting an uphill battle.

Make no mistake, this could ONLY happen in Scotland, where people will put "the union" before their kids future, no matter how badly they are treated, they will never abandon their london based masters.
298

Simon Domingue,

Quebec City 28/11/2008 14:58:51
@ those who have concerns about unionist propaganda in the media

Well this situation is not unique in the world. Most of the media in Quebec are federalist (against independance). Rich people controlling the press are simply protecting their interests. Nationalists now have a double challenge: Promoting their cause whilst struggling for honest media coverage.

This is not only in Scotland my friends. Wish you all the best. Free Scotland Now!
299

redcliffe62,

04/05/2009 02:43:57
when the choice is a tory government from london, for generations as labour are finished, or a scottish government from edinburgh the red rosetters from the gretaer unwashed regions of lanarkshire might get twitchy about their benefits and change allegiance, as labour is only too aware. hence the need not to attack the tories in scotland too heavily, as they are a necessary evil if and when they win.
down south, they will continue to smear as that is how to win at politics, negativity works on the gullible, the 10 to 20% who change their votes and may decide the next election. lies from labour leaders, be it blair, brown or whoever takes over soon are just par for the course.
a picture of thatcher meeting brown, and cameron saying she is awe inspiring should influence many who know what she did. the poll tax was not started in london, it was in scotland. no accident that this was done!

 

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