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Spanish trams expert rolls in for Capital talk

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Published Date: 05 November 2009
A TRANSPORT expert from a Spanish city which has just started work on a trams scheme will be the guest speaker at a conference in Edinburgh next week.
Diego Artigot, head of transport and infrastructure at Zaragoza Chamber of Commerce, will speak at the sixth Edinburgh City Region Conference at Our Dynamic Earth on Monday.

Work on the Zaragoza tram began in August and the new service is due to be fully operational in 2013.





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  • Last Updated: 05 November 2009 9:40 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Edinburgh transport plans
 
1

KingDannyB,

Tokyo 05/11/2009 10:46:08
so what ?
2

Skip McClendon,

05/11/2009 11:24:08
They've just started their tram scheme, whereas TIE's was supposed to be up and running by now. Shouldn't he be asking us how TIE managed to deliver a world class, 3-line tram network, an all on-time and in-budget?
3

Skip McClendon,

05/11/2009 11:57:20
Paddy Power have opened a book on whether the Zaragoza tram will be up and running first...
4

Skip McClendon,

05/11/2009 11:58:13
...Paddy Power have closed their book. Way too many bets on Zaragoza.
5

Eliz,

Edinburgh 05/11/2009 12:07:35
Perhaps Mr Artigot is coming to learn how not to run a contract - boy, he's come to the right place.
6

john3,

05/11/2009 12:26:55
Another jolly no doubt
7

Bling Crosby,

Edinburgh 05/11/2009 12:27:39
Alfonsa says "always nice to have the Spanish over here - Spaniards are lovely warm people and good luck to them all"
8

alex patersons English teacher,

05/11/2009 12:32:45
Spaniards are lovely warm people and good luck to them all.
There skin is so soft, must be that oil of ola they use.
9

dyon gollins's back,

Den Haag 05/11/2009 12:37:51
It would be great to hear from people in other cities on mainland Europe who've been through the tram reinstatement experience so as to let doubters in Embro toon see that in practically all such places the outcome has been totally positive. Here's a wee list - Lyon, Bordeaux, Strasbourg, Nantes, Barcelona, Grenoble, Paris, Seville and also Dublin where they're into their fourth extension of the tramway!! I rest my case.
10

alfonsa pedrosa,

embra 05/11/2009 12:40:45
I hope they have better luck than us,maybe TIE will end up in Spain.
11

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 12:43:40
#9 Wway with you Mandy! Don't you have a Popeye Workshop to run or something?
12

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 12:43:55
Away
13

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05/11/2009 12:48:27
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14

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 12:50:26
#13 And away with you too Jenny.
15

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 12:52:29
#13 "frothy-mouthed nutter" is actually a very apt description for you. "Reprehensible" and "weak" are also appropriate.

There are quite a few that are even more apt, but the post would be deleted.
16

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05/11/2009 12:54:44
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17

dyon gollins's back,

Den Haag 05/11/2009 12:55:20
Hey candy #11 12 14 15 did you forget to take your keep calm pills this morning - away back to bed with you? !!!
18

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05/11/2009 12:58:10
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19

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05/11/2009 12:59:33
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20

scotsol,

Edinburgh 05/11/2009 13:05:38
#19 - you're awfy hard on poor old Incandescent. He's probably done more to rally support for the tram scheme than anyone else.
21

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05/11/2009 13:17:52
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22

Statsman,

Edinburgh 05/11/2009 13:21:56
The Council and TIE PR plants have taken to insulting everyone.

23

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05/11/2009 13:28:03
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24

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05/11/2009 13:29:40
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25

JulesF,

Kirkliston 05/11/2009 13:34:34
I see Tramsarefab has their day pass from the Asylum again today !
26

Leila,

Edinburgh 05/11/2009 13:40:32
Does anyone want to open a book on how long TramsAreFab will stay the course on here today, after his/her marathon last week?
27

JulesF,

Kirkliston 05/11/2009 13:50:18
I'll take that bet with 10pm tonight !
28

Keith Wilby,

PONTEFRACT 05/11/2009 13:51:25
Where's Euan? Isn't it time for some more of his hilarious fabrications?
29

Spanish jambo,

Zaragoza 05/11/2009 14:09:32
As I've said on here before, the citizens of Zaragoza aren't complaining half as much as the anti-tram moaners about what will be a major improvement in this city.
And by the way, the local rags don't rant on about the obvious needs of road closures, noise pollution etc. to sell daily papers - take note EEN!
Having said that, the tram lines are nowhere near my house ;o)
30

Keith Wilby,

PONTEFRACT 05/11/2009 14:18:45
Dear Dyon Gollins,(9)
Has it not registered with you yet that the rest of the world have got it wrong and only a handful of Edinburgh "Cabhappy Motormouths" have got it right?
I am amazed you seem so intelligent.
31

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05/11/2009 14:22:54
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32

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05/11/2009 14:25:55
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33

dyon gollins's back,

Den Haag 05/11/2009 14:34:37
# 24 McVittie - try hoisting yersel' oot o' yer airmchair, man, an' tak a keek at the real world!! Strasbourg and Lyon are currently building extensions to their tram systems (each city has developed several lines having started with one) on railway tracks - some in use, some reinstated - to take passengers from and to the surrounding area and through these respective cities. It's like what would happen in Nedburg were the trams to roll out to the likes of Penicuik, Haddington and Livingstone.

In Strasbourg there was massive opposition to the reinstatement of trams from many folk who thought the centre of the city would die when the trams came in - now there's unanimity that the centre is thriving and much more pleasant to visit; try it you old biscuit ye!!!
34

JulesF,

Kirkliston 05/11/2009 14:41:41
#32, you will of course forgive me for not waving.

And might I just point out how difficult this telekinesis keyboard is to use !
35

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 14:43:59
#19 & #20

Oh dear, trotting out the old "20 watt with a dimmer switch" comment again, eh, scotsol?

And 6 minutes to log out and back in again under your new moniker is a prety poor show. You'll need to speed it up, or use two different IPs.
36

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 14:45:15
#28 No, Keith, but it is time for you to keep your opinions to Pontefract-related matters.
37

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 14:47:49
#30 Keith from Pontefract

"A handful"? I very much think not. Only a fool would actually believe that. Boy, Havering Spittle's mob of tram mercenaries is really out in force today.
38

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05/11/2009 14:59:15
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39

JulesF,

Kirkliston 05/11/2009 15:03:46
There's a Spanish tram that runs between
Gogarburn and old Leith docks,
And at dead of night the whistle blows,
and people hear she's running still...

And then they hush their children back to sleep,
Lock the doors, upstairs they creep,
For it is said that the souls of the dead
Paid for that tram ten thousand each!!

Well a railwayman lay dying with his people by his side,
His family were crying, knelt in prayer before he died,
But above his bed just a-waiting for the dead,
Was the Tieman with a twinkle in his eye,
"Well God's not around and look what I've found,
his moneys mine!!"
40

Skip McClendon,

05/11/2009 15:04:26
Mandy's minions are really putting in a shift today. Overtime claims must be due!
41

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05/11/2009 15:11:41
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42

Press,

05/11/2009 15:13:19
I'm really looking forward to the trams running and the future expansion of the network.
43

JulesF,

Kirkliston 05/11/2009 15:17:06
Network :
noun 1.
any netlike combination of filaments, lines, veins, passages, or the like: a network of arteries; a network of sewers under the city.

Edinburgh :

A single line !
44

,

05/11/2009 15:17:48
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45

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05/11/2009 15:18:59
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46

Skip McClendon,

05/11/2009 15:19:06
#41

Me and my ilk? You mean taxpayers? People who want value for public money? Sane people?
47

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 15:25:30
#38 TramsAreFab

Oh dear. Your abusive drivel doesn't really do you many favours.

"As usual, every tram supporter has multiple log ons, works for the cooncil, TIE, blah blah yada yada."

Multiple logins, yes. Council and TIE, no. You work for Mandy.

And I will not respond to "points" you make because you are a paid shill.
48

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05/11/2009 15:25:31
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49

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05/11/2009 15:28:22
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50

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 15:35:15
#50 Oh really?

I've heard better and more mature debating style than yours in my primary school playground.

To respond in kind: "If you don't know, I'm not telling you."

Deary, deary me. Is this really the best calibre of Shill Mandy can come up with? Even Grahamski's better.
51

Skip McClendon,

05/11/2009 15:35:16
#49

It might amaze you to learn this, but the Scottish Parliamentary election was not a single-issue referendum. Attempting to portray it as such is an act of desperation.

And you continually attempt to portray anyone who questions the value of the trams as some kind of luddite. In fact, most people's opposition is based, not upon fear of change or opposition to public transport, but on value for money grounds, and concerns over the choice of scheme (adding another form of transport to already crowded road space), the pathetic planning and project management of TIE, the dishonest PR campaign, the constant changing of the scheme (is it 3 lines for £500M....or 2 lines for £650M....or 1 line for £750M?), and the repeated changes to projected completion dates and complete lack of progress on certain parts of the route (Leith Walk and it's year-old hole, Haymarket with its 2 month works that have now last 12 months, etc, etc)...
52

Leila,

Edinburgh 05/11/2009 15:37:09
A question for TramsAreFab: please explain why from your very first comment today you have been so insulting to/about others posting here. There's no need for it, and it doesn't help the credibility of the tram project.
53

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 15:38:36
#54 Possibly paid on a per-post basis?
54

Skip McClendon,

05/11/2009 15:40:02
#54

Very good question, Leila. Those kind of personal insults would normally get someone removed from the site.
55

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 15:40:56
I wonder if this spectacularly abusive and immature style is what Mandy teaches in her "Popeye Workshops"?
56

Skip McClendon,

05/11/2009 15:45:10
#60

At least he had the defence of being dead for his project management going a bit off the rails. Wonder what TIE's excuse is!
57

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 15:48:33
I just found this absolute gem from our Pontefractian pal, Keith:

51 Keith Wilby,PONTEFRACT 16/10/2009 16:09:35
Well Said Ronster (50), but you won't get through to the antitramis. They think that over 600 countries in the world have got it wrong, and they are right.

Oh, Keith, Keith, Keith... "over 600 countries in the world", eh? I think this blatantly ridiculous exageration shows you bias rather well, don't you?
58

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 15:49:52
your bias, even
59

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 15:51:10
Another corker from Keith:

"55 Keith Wilby,PONTEFRACT 16/10/2009 16:57:14
Euan How will the city be "Plunged into crippling debt"? Do tell"

Where shall we start...?
60

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05/11/2009 15:54:51
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61

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 15:55:52
#65 It's "hypocrisy", actually.
62

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 15:56:26
Mandy should deduct cash for spelling mistakes.
63

Skip McClendon,

05/11/2009 16:05:41
#67

All TIE cash bonuses should be done away with, and replaced with 2010 season tickets for the tramline as it will, of course, be up and running by then...
64

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05/11/2009 16:05:45
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65

Skip McClendon,

05/11/2009 16:11:53
#69

The quality of your own argument would easily allow you to finish no lower than 18th in any primary school debating contest.
66

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 16:13:26
#69 I have refrained from outright abuse, so that's another "little white" from you.

Did you like fellow shill Keith's assertion regarding "over 600 countries in the world"?

"Inkydimlight" - Ah hah, ah hah, a ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Aaaaaaaaaaaaah.
67

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05/11/2009 16:22:38
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05/11/2009 16:25:56
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05/11/2009 16:28:48
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70

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05/11/2009 16:32:43
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71

Skip McClendon,

05/11/2009 16:33:08
#73

I responded to all your ill-formed stereotyping in my post #53, to which you haven't responded. I thought maybe it was because you were still off looking up what "Luddite" meant, or trying to find some justification for attempting to reduce the national Election to a single-issue referendum on trams.
72

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 16:43:05
#77 TramsAreFab

Oh, ok then...

Oh, ok then

Most of the large European cities were of significantly more grandiose original design than Edinburgh, incorporating grand boulevards, with even tributary routes being of similar width to Princes St. Many major urban centres had been reduced to rubble by the end of WWII, effectively leaving a "blank slate" for planners to think big, and rapid reconstruction on a huge scale was brought about through the Marshall Plan. Some good examples of this are the re-planning of Warsaw and contemporary masterplans for the Randstad area of the Netherlands.

I could go on but the simple and indesputable truth is that most major European cities were designed pre or post WWII (or both) to incorporate grand public transport schemes *alongside* vehicle traffic. Edinburgh was not and it just doesn't fit.

Simples.
73

Keith Wilby,

PONTEFRACT 05/11/2009 16:43:08
Incandescent
Didn't I say "600 TOWNS AND CITIES across the world" because that is fact not an exaggeration. Also I dare bet, that I spend more time on public transport in Edinburgh than quite a few of the anti-tram brigade
74

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 16:44:20
Excuse the duplication - I wrote it first in Wordpad.
75

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 16:44:44
#83

No.

You didn't.
76

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 16:46:18
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/edinburghtransportplans/Tram-disruption-sees-up-to.5740271.jp

#51
77

Keith Wilby,

PONTEFRACT 05/11/2009 17:07:15
Sorry Incandescent I meant to say towns and cities and THAT IS FACT
78

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05/11/2009 17:08:22
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79

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 17:09:02
#83 I have no doubt that a tram*line* would whisk you from the airport to the council HQ for your consultancy meetings much quicker, but, as a Pontefract resident, you won't be paying the real price of it for decades to come.
80

Keith Wilby,

PONTEFRACT 05/11/2009 17:13:36
Incandescent 77 What about, Croydon,Birmingham, Nottingham, Sheffield and Manchester,
81

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 17:14:02
This summer in Europe, I saw an old narrow-gauge tramline being completely dug up and replaced right down to new concrete footings with a wider track to accommodate the modern pert of the city's fleet. Simultaneously, the overhead wires and supports were replaced. The stretch of road was around a 1/3 the length of Princes St. Time taken from start to full completion?



3 days.



Any trammites care to comment?
82

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 17:16:05
#90

Industrial centres that suffered significant bomb damage during WWII. They weren't beneficiaries of the Marshall Plan so reconstruction took much longer, but they were still significantly opened up compared to little ol' Edinburgh.
83

Keith Wilby,

PONTEFRACT 05/11/2009 17:24:37
Incandescent 89. What real price are you talking about? the scheme is being funded by central government. Did you think that all the residents of Edinburgh would be getting a monthly bill then? If that is the case, I can be the bearer of glad tidings for you.
I think residents of other towns and cities would be pleased they were getting some investment.
84

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 17:39:22
#93

The funding issues have been extensively covered here many, many times before. To simply refer to the capped central government funding that was always going to be insufficient is simply ingenuous poppycock.

"...would be getting a monthly bill then?"

Indeed we will, in the form of increased council tax or, if CEC if forbidden this route, ever-reduced local services.
85

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 17:40:03
ever-reducing, even
86

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 17:43:10
Sarah - would you please enlighten our Pontefractian Pal on the funding issues?
87

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 05/11/2009 18:01:21
#93 - Keith, I appreciate that like most of the small numbers of tram supporters actual facts and knowledge about the Edinburgh system escape you, however please be clear that the central Govt contribution is capped, with cross party support, at £500m.

Which means all costs (potentially £250m) above that rest with CEC. Now the only ways that CEC can raise that sum is by selling off council assets, increasing council tax, reducing council services and/or placing the Lothian Buses operation in financial and operational peril. Whatever way they choose to do it, the burden will fall on Edinburgh residents as Parliament has already made clear there aint no more money.


PS - The National Audit Office reported on why every, yes EVERY new build tram system in the UK failed to meet its original objectives.
As an aside, I would suggest that most residents are not so blinkered that they would rather see £500m of taxpayers money wasted in their own city as opposed to spent on much more worthwhile projects elsewhere (whether in Edinburgh or in other parts of the country).

Taxpayers money is not free - we all pay for it eventually, and if the Edinburgh vanity tram did not progress the Govt could have made, for example, a one of payment of £100 to every citizen in Scotland. That is the real cost.
88

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 18:15:56
#97 GrahamH

Well said. I for one would have liked to see the money going toward high speed rail or A9 dualling.

No doubt the trammites will complain about the "carbon" implications of spending any money on roads, completely ignoring the fact that even the comically optimistic business case conceded there would be very little impact on emissions (and, at that, probably to mask the truth that there actually will be ongoing increases due to congestion), and that A9 dualling would save lives. But there you go.
89

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 18:20:15
Can't
90

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 18:20:22
resist it
91

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05/11/2009 18:37:09
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92

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 18:38:17
AH C'MON! Deleting 10 posts just when I hit 100!
93

Incandescent,

05/11/2009 18:39:31
Oh well...at least TramsAreFab's login has been cancelled, so all's well that ends well.
94

Ian down under,

Musselburgh 05/11/2009 19:48:40
I think it would be wise to listen to someone to do with rail transport from Spain. 20 years ago Britain had a 'high speed' network of 2 lines with a maximum of 125 mph and end to end average speeds of around 90-95 mph. Spain had nothing faster than 90 mph and end to end averages of 50-60mph at best.
today Spain is developing a network of 200mph lines and the ones operating achieve 99%+ punctuality and reliability. They don't talkfest for decades then wring their hands in fear- they just get on with it and they are leaving us behind, badly. It is the same with local rail, light rail and trams - they just get on with it.
Sadly the Scots used to be the ones famous for getting things done, just by getting on and doing it, we went round the world 'doing it' engineering wise for everybody else and now we are in a backwater.
Now all we do is have meetings, legally interrogate every tiny point and administrate ourselves into a corner surrounded by accountants and lawyers. Then when we decide to do something we get scared and panic, we pull back a bit and do a bit less and then worry again and maybe stop altogether, have a wee cup of tea, another worry and get our slippers on and go to sleep - then we feel safe.
SCOTLAND WAKE UP - THE WORLD IS LEAVING YOU BEHIND. Stop worrying and start doing, like we used to do.
95

The Ghost of Sir William Arrol,

The Forthy Bridge 05/11/2009 19:55:07
Tram costs are peanuts in comparison to the £400 billion, is that amount even close to the total final figure? squandered away by the banks with nothing, and I mean "NOTHING" to show for it!
96

pongo2009,

05/11/2009 20:30:03
#87 (or it was when I read it)

The CEC excess contribution would be virtually unachievable. What I expect will happen is that as soon as the projected outturn cost exceeds the authorised total the project could not continue to the current scope unless the funds were already available. If not at some stage the contractor would submit a stage payment invoice which the bank would bounce.

The EEN has already reported seeing documents stating a projected outturn cost of £524.5m, pre dispute resolution. So sometime in the New Year (2010) I predict Leith direction gets the chop.
97

Ian down under,

Musselburgh 05/11/2009 20:37:18
Forget the tiny minutiae and as #95 says we throw money at banks for no return. We are also falling for one of the biggest cons in history by paying 'carbon' taxes and fees to big financial companies again for nothiong to show for it. We have got to get rid of these nit picking financial worriers who stop anything productive and progressive because it 'costs too much' but see no problem in sending uncalculable amounts of money into the bl;ackholes of 'financial institutions', carbon trading and legal fees.
Stop worrying and whingeing and start doing.
we used to produce engineers to beat the world, we've got one of the world's iconic structures 10 miles down the rail line at Dalmeny. We could not build that now because the objectors and moaners would see it would never happen and would tell us that our world class rowing boats are all we need to get to Fife.
98

Ian down under,

Frustration on Forth 05/11/2009 20:44:59
And, isn't it interesting that all the new buildings we seem to get are a confernece centre and a parliament bulding. Centres of talking, talking and talking. How about some doing doing doing.
Great sons of Edinburgh would turn in their graves at the way we are going.
99

Incandescent,

06/11/2009 02:03:41
Ian down under

As to the how much the "carbon" bandwagon is going to actually cost us, by which I mean the man in the street, you really, truly, ain't seen nothin' yet. I confidently predict there will be riots before this particular gravy train gets the Beeching treatment.
100

TramsAreFlab,

Whingers will be on the first Tram 06/11/2009 12:46:09
Mandy says you've to stop saying nasty things about the trams!

 

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