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She tried to do it and failed – can Cameron cut public spending?



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DAVID Cameron has ventured into territory that even Margaret Thatcher could not deliver on: cutting public expenditure.
While the Tory leader has pledged to safeguard spending on "essential services" if he becomes prime minister, he gave a strong signal yesterday that he would reduce waste, and possibly cut taxes.

But critics lambasted him for being strong on rhetoric but light on detail – such as where the savings would come from.

In a speech to supporters in Birmingham, Mr Cameron revived Mrs Thatcher's ideology, insisting the country needed to learn to live within its means.

He accused Gordon Brown of presiding over massive waste and echoed Mrs Thatcher when he said it was time for some Tory "housekeeping".

On entering No10, Mrs Thatcher said "any woman who understands the problems of running a home will be able to understand the problems of running a country".

Mr Cameron, who worked for Mrs Thatcher's government for its final two years, described the Conservatives' overriding mission as "to revive our society, just as Margaret Thatcher revived our economy; to reverse Britain's social breakdown, just as she reversed our economic breakdown. And we have set out how we will achieve that mission – by ending the era of top-down state control and big government".

He said people were angry with Labour, as they saw their taxes going up but could see no tangible improvement in the quality of their lives.

"After a decade of reckless spending under Labour, Britain needs good housekeeping from the Conservatives. We need to start living within our means," he said.

The Conservatives would still "spend more on essentials" while, over time, "creating the space for cutting tax", he said.

"Our overall method and aim are clear: we will share the proceeds of economic growth. Sharing the proceeds of economic growth is what living within our means actually means. Not spending everything we have. Not borrowing to spend beyond our means. But ensuring that, over time, the economy grows faster than the state, so spending falls as a share of national income and we can reduce taxes and borrowing."

The Tory leader said this would be done by attacking the three causes of a bigger state and rising public expenditure. These were family breakdown, unreformed public services and the cost of bureaucracy itself.

Mr Cameron outlined what he said were some of Labour's most wasteful projects – a £20 billion NHS computer that was still not working properly, £2.3 billion spent refurbishing the offices of Ministry of Defence civil servants and nearly £2 billion lost in tax credits due to fraud in just one year.

A Conservative government would have the principle of "long-term tax reduction". Low taxes were "morally right and economically efficient", he said.

Mr Cameron stopped short of outlining exactly where he would make the savings.

He announced that he would scrap the recommendations of the James Review, which was appointed at the last general election. This set out a long list of all the government functions and quangos the Tories would cut.

Before coming into power at Holyrood in May last year, the SNP also set out plans to have a "bonfire of quangos", but this has so far failed to materialise.

Mr Cameron admitted that the overall approach of his party's review had not been credible.

"People didn't believe it, for the very good reason that controlling public spending is not about a one-off efficiency drive, it's about a whole new culture of government," he said.

Yvette Cooper MP, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, dismissed the Tory leader's claims and accused him of lacking substance.

"Yet again David Cameron's rhetoric fails to stand up to scrutiny," she said. "He may urge spending discipline today, but that hasn't stopped him and his shadow cabinet colleagues from making numerous spending commitments with no explanation as to where the money is coming from."

Vince Cable, the Liberal Democrats' economics spokesman, said the Cameron speech showed the Tories were not yet fit to govern.

"You cannot simply claim you will make government more efficient and improve public services without offering any concrete solutions for how you will do it," he said. "This hotchpotch of vacuous platitudes merely confirms how hopelessly ill-prepared the Conservative party is for power."

CAUTIOUS MOVES ON TAX CUTS

WHEN David Cameron came to power two-and-a-half years ago, he resisted calls from Tory traditionalists to pledge tax cuts and a reduction in public spending.

He instead focused on modernising the party by playing up its commitment to the environment and social mobility.

Buoyed by the Tories' recent triumph at council elections in England and Wales – and seizing the London mayoralty from Labour – Mr Cameron has now been emboldened to set out what the Conservatives stand for.

While insisting that tax cuts and prudent spending were part of his party's "DNA", Mr Cameron's promises yesterday were still cautious. Indeed, he has dispensed with the Tories' James Review, published before the 2005 election, which outlined which services and public bodies would be cut.

Mr Cameron has instead pledged to share the "proceeds of growth" between tax cuts and spending on "essential" services.




The full article contains 872 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 19 May 2008 9:50 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

The Scottish Executive,

20/05/2008 00:10:25
No
2

Sam,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 00:34:34
The largest single block of voters is the non-government general public. The Tories should adopt a simple formula, of every 10p cut from government spending 5p will go to tax cuts and 5p will go to retire the public debt. The taxpayers will flock to the Conservatives the moment the first 5p is delivered. As for the government slugs, leaches and quango hangers on, they have not enough votes to carry an election.
3

,

20/05/2008 01:03:58
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4

,

20/05/2008 01:18:11
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5

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

20/05/2008 03:30:31
#4

I openly laugh in your face. A Scottish unionist too stupid to see the right way. Independence is gaining momentum with such force never before seen by galling individulas such as yourself. The inevatable will happen, Scotland will be free and a very very rich country sooner than you think. You are then free to enjoy the spoils of victory or go live with the English bretheren you support.
6

W Smith,

Middle East 20/05/2008 04:17:37
Not sure I agree with the headline.

If you include the huge subsidies paid to the coal industry that were cut then Mrs Thatcher had a lot of success.

Mrs Thatcher (peace be upon her) closed down uneconomical coal pits and the miners were forced to get real jobs in the private sector where taking one month off 'on the sick' every year isn't tolerated.

WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD!

Its still cheaper to buy and ship coal from China than too keep coal industry in Britain subsidised using BILLIONS of the tax payers money.

BTW
1) One study found that the coal miners in the private mines in Britain take much fewer days off on sick leave than their Scargill supporting counterparts in the state owned mines.

2) I grew up in Fife where the coal miners were the most prosperous group within the council estates. From holidays in Spain (in the '70s) to spending a small fortune in the social clubs on booze and at the bookies I never bought into the 'miners-are-victims' routine that the Scottish Labour Party and the STUC came out with.

3) Funny to read a Labour supporting newspaper showing 'concern' over public spending.

A BIT LATE FOR THAT IS IT NOT?
7

W Smith,

Middle East 20/05/2008 04:29:07
"Margaret Thatcher's IDEOLOGY was that Britain should live within its means - a MANTRA echoed yesterday by David Cameron"

Ideology??? Mantra????

What other 'mantra' is there but to live within your means?

So what is Gordon Brown's IDEOLOGY/MANTRA?

I can guess.

"Lets p*** a national fortune down the drain, employ more people in the public sector than is necessary, give illegal immigrants access to social security, encourage teenage pregnancie and make life comfortable for the female who has 4 kids to 3 different fathers - and then impose more tax on those poor sods who have chosen to work for a living".

What was Maggie thinking?

If ony should had learned from the more 'enlightened' socialists amongst us.
8

W Smith,

Middle East 20/05/2008 04:39:57
James Kirkup is ex-Scotsman I believe.

He has an interesting article in today's Telegraph, entitled "Two Million Britons Emigrate in Ten Years".

The biggest exodus in almost a century!

To be replaced by 3.9 million immigrants.

If living within your means financially is now an "ideology" then its time to head for the door.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1990807/Two-million-Britons-emigrate-in-10-years.html
9

Ubi,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 06:23:32
There is a strong moral and economic case for reviewing the large scale waste of the public's money which has occurred in the past ten years.

Even if you accept that Labour's massive over spending has been well intentioned (not a given) the results in health, education, transport infrastructure et al strongly suggest that the state is now incapable of managing investment on this scale.

Why should the public be treated as a cash cow for ideological dogma which self evidently cannot be delivered?
10

Alfred E. Neuman,

20/05/2008 06:44:05
Given that the tax-payer pays £1,000,000s in reports to tell us how much we're wasting and then nothing ever getting done about it, even stopping the policy of auditing the waste would be a significant saving.
11

Alfred E. Neuman,

20/05/2008 06:46:24
2 Sam

Why 10p and two 5ps Sam? Are you a Nationalist making crap up? Bet you are.

Oh look at me, I know good politics, here is a meaningless number I plucked of me erse.
12

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 20/05/2008 07:20:55
Well if we want to cut unnecessary tax then getting rid of the tv licence fee is a good idea.
13

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 20/05/2008 07:26:07
Saving expenditure is easy: sort out the real priorities for spending (police, health, education, etc) and simply reduce the rest by 5% each and every year.

Create suitable work for all the unemployed, even for those on disability, prisoners and numpties. Restore the work ethic. We have two million unemployed and yet immigrants can find work! People must support themselves.
14

Conan the Librarian™,

20/05/2008 07:34:51
3
I regret it as well.He seemed to be the only Unionist that never stooped to name-calling.
15

It'sobvious,

Glasgow 20/05/2008 07:40:29
Well that's easy - just get rid of the armed forces!
16

brownlie,

20/05/2008 07:53:13
6 W Smith

Great posts - we unionists are never frightened to let our philosophy flourish by ignoring the facts and making statements borrowed from the Anti-Miners Propoganda League.

Perhaps we could, also,consider child labour, poverty wages and extremely harsh working conditions to enable us to be able to compete with the Chinese coal producers.
17

Red Tower,

Dunoon 20/05/2008 07:55:01
I am not a supporter of the LibDems but I think people should consider seriously voting for them at the next election. The Brown government deserves to be deprived of power and Cameron is, as Hillary Clinton might say, "All hat and no cows". The best result at the next election would be a hung pariament.
18

brownlie,

20/05/2008 07:56:35
13 rules

Define "numpties"?
19

Silence of the Yams,

20/05/2008 08:03:30
17. Best result would be a BNP govt. No more EU, Human Rights Act, CAP, Euro currency nonsense, billions every year to Brussels. No more molly cuddling neds, killers, paedophiles, and terrorist scum. No more unwanted aslylum blighting our shores and changing our cities into ghetto's where the white man fears to tread. No more being a second class citizen in your own country, period!
20

JayJay,

Right here 20/05/2008 08:07:34
Thatcher backed away from the Unions on the question of public sector reform and Cameron will do the same.
It was reported yesterday that Scotland's quango cost £6bn per year and employ 40,000 people. Across the UK, there are 1,162 quangos, costing £64bn.
I am sure there are many, many people doing worthwhile jobs in these places. I am also sure there are many, many non-jobs and huge swathes of waste and inefficiency.
But politicians will never take this sort of challenge on. It could cost them votes. And whilst the taxes rise relentlessly to feed an ever growing public sector, along with the inevitable juicy pensions, we will get the usual soundbites from prats like Cameron - who knows perfectly well he will do nothing about this.
21

conservative,

Fife 20/05/2008 08:07:36
The first step towards reducing taxes and waste is to get the current Labour government out of office. Gordon Brown has proved that he can spend with the best of them while times are good and now that times are harder he is shown for what he is - a reckless spendthrift with no policies to bother about.

Roll on the next election and let us hope that at least some of the unthinking Labour diehards will realise what a complete farce this government is.
22

Franker,

Glasgow 20/05/2008 08:13:48
Public sector pensions- now i wonder which party has the Ed to tackle that unsustainable commitment. The future middle class-pensioners with 30 years of working a 35 hour week.

ps Silence of the bams-BNP are racist scum-no more no less
23

thinking,

Scotland 20/05/2008 08:24:35
#7
I agree with your sentiments. Maggie did get the country out of the red after the previous Labour government squandered and overspent our money.
She wasn't perfect but she worked hard to try and build a country that was able to look after itself and give everyone the opportunity for personal improvement and progress if they wished to make an effort to do so.
Unfortunately, Labour has put us in a worse position than after the last Labour government as we are not only financially in greater debt we have fewer people living and teaching standards of decency, honesty, morality and care for one another. The greatest loss is the breakdown of the family
24

scottish person,

paisley 20/05/2008 08:34:20
Jay Jay.
The only decent post today.
25

hertscot,

20/05/2008 08:36:53
#19, just vote Tory then, you'll get the same resultand won't have to admit, your middle-aged, middle-class, middle-english, xenophobic, small minded bigotted views on a public forum.
26

hertscot,

20/05/2008 08:42:26
As to public spending, Cameron will try exactly what that bloody woman tried. He and his party will starve public services of money, then when they are on their knees, they will be sold off on the cheap and the service will be charged for at extortionate rates and dressed up as doing the population a favour. For past examples of how this works, see Gas, Electricity, Water, Telecoms and Rail Networks, sold off to the city for a pittance and still paid for by us.
27

scottish person,

paisley 20/05/2008 08:43:53
I guess you are either too young or simply forget what thatcher did to scotland. Take a trip down the clyde and see all those lovely houses and flats which were once areas of employment.Scotland did not vote for the war mongering bit*h so she closed it down. Do you think cameron is any different?
28

South Ayrshire Sanny Hossack,

20/05/2008 08:52:12
The Tory bandwagon is on its way to Ayr where they have been in power for 3 years, this is where everyone can see what the Torys are all about they have closed a recycling centre, done away with school busses, have the worst roads in Scotland (a fact), closing schools, made massive redundancys from the staff and now have brought in their mates and cronies from the private sector who charge more for the services they used to provide inhouse but that doesnt matter they all make financial contributions to the Tory party which seems to square the circle. What makes this lot worse is that over the last year they have been in partnership with their tartan mates the Scottish Nationalist Conservatives. Cameron will have the cheak to tell them how well they are doing in South Ayrshire (well he needs to they were given the money to hold their conference from non other than Tory run South Ayrshire Council) So lets not provide busses to get children to school but pay for camerons band wagon to come to Ayr its all about priorities!!!!!!
29

Caratacus,

West Britain 20/05/2008 08:57:31
#1
I concur.
30

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 20/05/2008 09:10:31
#18 Brownlie

A numpty is anyone who disagrees with me. Sorrowfully, these posts are replete with such.
31

JayDeeTee,

20/05/2008 09:11:23
#26. Spot on. Meanwhile the owners of these ex-publicly owned companies are rolling in it. And another thing, cutting public spending will result in many jobs being lost in Scotland. six out of ten people are employed by the public purse are they not?
32

Boy Wonder,

20/05/2008 09:12:27
Thatcher's legacy is alive and well in the Tory party, irrespective of what "caring" Cameron and Co would like us to believe!

Like New Labour, who ultimately betrayed their root support, you can never trust the Tories. There's a reason why they're called the Conservative party and follow the old ethos. Never forget it. Their interests are not necessarily yours!
33

James, Edinburgh,

20/05/2008 09:30:43
In 1997, Linda Clark (remember her? beat Malcolm, didn't like Parliament - it wasn't as remunerative as the bar - stood down so that A Darling could get a 'safe' seat)said at a hustings, "Quangoland, Quangoland, Quangoland; Labour's priority when getting into power will be to destroy Quangoes" Say no more!

Incidentally,#28, Labour decided that Councils would supply venues at nil cost for Party Conferences for their own and subsequently had to allow all other parties the same privilege
34

The Strategist,

20/05/2008 09:33:51
The real issue is not how to cut public sector jobs but how to create private sector jobs of sufficient value and worth to both reduce the need for such a huge public sector.

The problem has always been private sector investment levels.
35

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 09:43:18
26 hertscot
If privatising industries such as telecoms was such a bad idea why did so many other countries do the same? How many developed countries have a state controlled telecoms structure? Perhaps you are not as old as I and therefore do not remember what the state controlled industry was like. I remember applying (yes applying - it was like a govt bureaucracy) for a telephone. I had to go on a three month waiting list and was then provided with the standard take it or leave it format. It was like trying to buy a Lada in the old Soviet Union.

Now you can get instant land based, mobile, internet, broadband services for a fraction of the price with a huge choice of providers. Some of this is due to imoproved technology but this was only because the private companies were prepared to invest in the technology with a view to meeting the demand.
36

hertscot,

20/05/2008 09:45:55
I am still not sure about an independent Scotland, but if the Tories get the UK parliament, it would be the only safe way to go for us.
The country cannot afford to screwed again!
37

Thistledhu,

Fife 20/05/2008 09:49:38
have we forgotten the 80's allready ?
Massed unemployment

Financial chaos

Riots in the streets

corruption at highest level 3 ministers going to prison once out of goverment not to mention the BAE/Suadi affair
Disgracefull treatment of the Armed forces with below rate of inflation pay settelments followed by massive increaess in rent charges for barracks and married quarters that were little better than slums.

Forgive me if i do not yearn for such good housekeeping
38

,

20/05/2008 09:55:42
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39

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 09:56:31
This has everything to do with Labours 'job creation' scheme - regretfully it doesn't mean that through prosperity and expansion that a job is created .... they just invent a new procedure which requires instead of a piece of paper being 'approved' by going from a-b the bit of paper now needs to be 'approved' by going from a to b to c.

It's difficult to unpick as the unnecessary departments and workers of course defend their position and put up a barrage of reasons why their input is necessary. It's very sad but they should never have been there in the first place.

If you got motivated business folk running the council like a business who's goal was to provide basic public services very well - forget all this mish mash ethnic crud and minority pandering - just the basics - I reckon you could 1/2 or even 1/3 the council tax bill in some cases.

Some of the financial figures the government does not want you the have easily. In some places 60% of your tax money is used up in Collection/Administration prior to distribution - and the places where the money is distributed have their own administrations as well so how much is actually spent on the 'service' that is supposed to be catered for 20% ? 10 % ? ....

If you gave money to a charity who used up say 60p-75p in the pound to provide jobs for the boys before it helped your cause would you continue to give to the charity ??

Some charities administration is less that 5% - so it is possible to collect and distribute money AT LEAST 12 times more efficiently than the Labour Government - So knocking off 10-20% should be child's play .....

.... but then we have the unions who will squeal and obstruct anything that depletes their membership even if it for the greater public good ... disgusting organisations.

Labour and the unions have made this mess which is bleeding the country dry. Lest we not forget at the next election.

40

walter,

20/05/2008 09:57:24
Thatcher and the Conservatives took this country by the scruff of the neck and dragged it screaming and kicking out of the socialist gutter that the UK had become by 1979.

41

hertscot,

20/05/2008 10:00:16
#35,

There is no reason why BT could not have done that for the benefit of the country, the investment was made from their profits, which shopuld have gone to us not city shareholders. This would not exclude other providers, the profits would also be used to reduce charges, especially standing charges.
I am perhaps not as old as you, but the sell off I remember undervalued every state industry, and we have now reached the glorious free-market dream of most of our energy needs being met by foreign owned private and state companies whose only interest is profit, unfortunately as energy sources reduce these companies will shrink back to national sized industries, and leave a gaping void in the UK, where all we will have is an ageing infrastructure we cannot afford to fix and will be even more at the mercy of gas/oil traders as we will be charged premium rates for supply.
Above I posted a telling off to some BNP gimp. but in terms of energy, it's management and the protection of supply, only a coordinated and controlled approach will secure a reasonable future for us, and private companies will not do this as profit margins diminish.

As regards the telephone application and technology, nothing else you've mentioned was available and still wasn't for years afterwards, there was only one option a telephone connected to an analogue exchange.
42

Thistledhu,

20/05/2008 10:02:06
#40 utter nonesense thatcher took the country to the brink of chaos and was in charge of one of the most incompatent corrupt goverments this country has ever seen
43

Alan B,

20/05/2008 10:05:06
It is too difficult and irrelevent to compare thatcher with cameron. It is a different time with different problems etc.

Nu labour under blair was really a high tax model of thatcherism in many ways.

The basic ideology that thatcher chose to implement is pretty much correct. Although she made a mess of much of the implementation. I say that rather than thatcerism becuase there was little original in what she did.

For those that say she starved the public sector of cash, consider what she inherited.

UK inflation has hit under the previous government 25%. (we are moaning now because inflation may go over the 3-4% level, although measure slightly differently). The basic labour policy of controlling inflation had failed, incomes policy with the winter of discontent. (mass strikes).

the Uk was in such a bad situation even with oil in the late 70s that we had to go to the imf for emergency loads to keep us afloat like a bannana repbulic.

In the history of the nhs spending has only ever been cut once in real terms. That was under labour in the 70s. Why becuase of orders from the imf to allow them to bail out our economy.

I did not like thatcher becuase she screwed scotland. But it is important to be accurate about what actually happened. for instance thatcher did not really cut tax, she cut direct taxes and increased indirect taxes.

If u look at the basic philosophy that is associated with thatcher.

1)try to balance the budget and do not spend money u cannot afford. (can anyone really argue with that).
2)control inflation using interest rates (that is what everyone does now a days).
3)try to have a successful private sector. encourage the development of businesses. stop unions from dominating where the tail was wagging the dog. ie business should be efficient, improve productivity etc.
4)encourage people to aspire to own their own home.

As such there is little u can argue with.

Problems were interest rates in the early 80s were ridicu
44

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 10:05:17
27 Scottish Person
Margaret Thatcher didn't close down the shipyards on the Clyde. They closed because they could not compete with shipyards in other countries such as Japan and South Korea which could build better ships at a lower price. The same happened to th motorcycle industy in the UK and much of the car industry. While Japan was producing cars which people wanted to buy the UK was producing the Austin Allegro.
45

Alan B,

20/05/2008 10:05:32
cont...

Problems were interest rates in the early 80s were ridiculous and meant the strong pound desimated industry. Rather than forsing industry to be efficient actually put much out of business.

Also kept interest rates under political control. Meaning monetary policy while much improve was still poor. this lead to the recession in the late 80s and early 90s when the government mismanaged the stock market crash in 88, and also lowered interest rates before elections to create miny booms that just stoked up inflation.

Her biggest blind sight was mirus. This subsidising of credit lead to higher than needed interest rates.

46

hertscot,

20/05/2008 10:05:35
Too right, Thistledhu there are far too many commenting that have short memories!
47

,

20/05/2008 10:06:18
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48

hertscot,

20/05/2008 10:09:11
So all the Thatcher apologists, are now dropping Scotlands trousers and bending it over for Cameron.

It really is time for independence!
49

,

20/05/2008 10:12:04
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50

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 20/05/2008 10:13:40
A good place to start cost-savings would be the pubic pension systems. If this was brought into line with the private sector, the savings would be pretty gigantic. However, no-one has the balls.
51

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 10:15:15
43 Alan B
I agree with much of what you have said. The poblem is that it is very difficut to have a reasoned discussion on the merits or otherwise if the Thatcher Govt. as any mention of her name seems to spark a series of vitriolic abuse rather than any proper analysis. It is worth noting that no major political party (not even the SNP) advocates repealing the main measures she introduced - tade union reform, privatisation of industries such as telecoms and, as you stated, using interest rates to control inflation.
52

Alan B,

20/05/2008 10:17:22
#hertscot

U are right that they could have sold the public industries for slightly more. But they wanted to create wider share ownership, and tried to do this be selling them off at a discount.

It was also difficult to value these companies as they were all very inefficient.

BT for instance if i remember correct was over manned by about 100,000 people.

The idea behind privatisation in general is
1)competition between companies produce better products for the customer with cheaper prices.
(could u have imagined if we only could have BT mobiles etc).
2)it is too difficult politically for the government to make industry efficient. Governments in the past artificially kept unemploymnet down by hiring far to many people into these public sector industries. This meant productivity was poor and unprofitable meaning the tax payer has to pick up the burden. The only taxes u were really getting was from the small private sector.

government simply will not restructure companies as needed.

3)investment, it is easier for the private sector to borrow to invest. government as restricted, particularly becasue many might feel like borrowing to consume. Much like brown has done today.
53

,

20/05/2008 10:21:18
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54

Miss H,

20/05/2008 10:42:09
53 Not sure you've quite thought that through. It's undeniably the case that public sector workers have more sick days often related to stress etc than private sector workers.

Possibly that is because being a nurse, a police officer, a firefighter, a social worker, a housing officer etc is more stressful than working in the private sector.

Privatising the police force or fire service etc would not make the job any less stressful but would bring all other kinds of problems in its wake.
55

Miss H,

20/05/2008 10:52:49
43 I would argue with a couple of things. Point 4) because the way they 'encouraged' people to own their own homes was through selling council houses off at a massive discount under right to buy. That is what has left us in the current horrendous housing situation. I would also argue with point 1) in the sense that the Thatcher era coincided with the start of the credit boom. There may not be a direct cause and effect there but the 'greed is good' mentality of the 80s certainly played a part.
56

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 10:53:48
41 Hertscot
I think it is rather optimistic to think that a state run BT would have put in the same level of investment. Investment is not only funded by profits - it is funded to a large extent by borrowing. The prospect of a state owned industry borrowing £bns is not one which governments relish. That is why the privatisation of telecoms industries happened all over Europe - yes the shareholders can benefit from profits but they also carry the risk associated with the borrowing.

There is another aspect. The profit motive should not be sneered at. One of the reasons the private companies were keen to invest in telecoms was that they could see increasing demand and felt that they could meet this demand with the right investment. This then would lead to profits. There was, therefore, an incentive for them to invest to meet the demand. As a state owned comany Bt would not have had this incentive and, therefore would not have had the same incentive to invest.

Some may feel that we would have the current ease of use telecoms systems if we still had a state controlled system but I am rather sceptical over this. Govt industries do not tend to have a good recrd at meeting demand - why do we still have long NHS waiting lists? - why did you have to wait months or years for a Lada in the old Soviet Union?
57

kimba,

20/05/2008 11:03:04
48. Grow up,Independence will NEVER happen,get used to it!
58

Alan B,

20/05/2008 11:03:15
#Miss H

I think u really have to differentiate between front line workers eg nurse, a police officer, a firefighter and the mass of civil servents.

From my own experience from working in both the public sector and private, there is much more stress in the private sector and u work much longer. Most people that come from the private sector and work in the public sector find it funny when people in the public sector are moaning about working hard.

For a start the civil service or council type jobs have 35 hrs weeks compared to the private sector which will generally be 40hrs +.

If u work in the private sector u simply cannot take days of like u can in the public sector. Part of the problem in the public sector is they can not get rid of people they do not want. Someone can take the complete **** and they cannot do anything about it. I have seen this. They want people to leave, they hope they leave but a terrified of unfair dismissal.

The big problem i saw in the public sector was that pension mean people stayed rather than moving on to another job when they hit a career ceiling. This meant u had many poeple in jobs for more that 10yrs complete demotivated. this could be becuase a colleague got the promotion and they did not and there was nowhere else to go.(i would be lucky if i stayed in a job more than 2yrs during my working career of the last 15yrs)

On pensions we really need to bring the public and private sectors in to line and have good pensions for all. I personally see this a pushing up the age of retirement. The cake is spread to thinnly. It is simply ridiculous non front line public service workers can retire so early.

If people are living longer we need people to work longer it aint rocket science. I would like this introduced with flexibility to ecourage people to go part time after 60 and work till say 69. Most people 65+ are to young to throw on the scrap heap.

I would also say rather than retire police at 55 or whatever it is
59

Alan B,

20/05/2008 11:05:36
cont...

I would also say rather than retire police at 55 or whatever it is now, allow them to moving in back office jobs, traffic, work with the courts etc.
60

Thistledhu,

20/05/2008 11:11:36
4CHC, I am not defending Labour But if u want to compare then yes lets do each child in school now has individual access to books under tory system they dident and chances are wouldent again

The closeing of military hospitals another thatcher gem that has left wounded servicemen in general wards being abused by passers by not to mention the overflow from the NHS that military hospitals used to take

The Roysth devenport affair for which the tax payer is still paying for roysth was and still is licensed for such work devenport is still struggleing to reach the required standards with the cost running into billions

lets not forget the poll tax and the disaster it was

Thatcherism did not and will not work
it is based on the poor staying poor
and the rich getting richer

and your argument to privitise all, have a look at the energy committee today they have just heard the reason UK energy bills are so high is that the private sector artificialy inflates the prices lesson to be learned there i think
61

Tris,

20/05/2008 11:12:43

19.

You're a scary person.
62

Miss H,

20/05/2008 11:17:01
58 I agree that you have to differentiate between the different types of workers. But the higher sick rates in the public sector are accounted for by the fact that people in high stress occupations can be off work for months at a time. That then gives you the kind of 'average' figure of public sector workers having X number of days off per year compared to private sector workers having Y number of days off - which creates the much-hyped image of public sector workers as being lazy.

I also have worked in the public sector and the private sector and while I recognise that it can be stressful in the private sector I just don't think it is the same kind of stress.
63

hertscot,

20/05/2008 11:21:13
#57 Kimba, If the Tories get in, there will be an almighty clamour for independence, and if you had read an earlier post of mine, I did say that i wasn't convinced about the current arguments for an independent Scotland.

Alan B,

I have no real problem with private companies and the services they deliver, but we as a country owned these industries and with a little bit of guts and foresight from our respective governments over the past 30 odd years, we could have protected and grew state assets for the benefit of the then owners, us.
I know that the Tories under Thatcher worked to eliminate the ideals of socialism by encouraging an unsightly and unseemly clamour for wealth at any cost. The expanded share ownership (using state companies as bait) was a con, they sold piddling amounts of stock to us, made us pay for companies we already owned. And where are all these shares now, sold to the big boys who prevent any small shareholder from having a say. We were conned, the country was conned, we have lost valuable assets for the quick buck, sad and true.

Ugly George

What the hell have Soviet waiting lists for Ladas got to do with state owned industry in a democratic country?
64

Alan B,

20/05/2008 11:21:54
#Miss H

"I would also argue with point 1) in the sense that the Thatcher era coincided with the start of the credit boom"

I was talking about public sector balancing budgets. ie not spending too much.

With regard to ur point:

I think it also difficult to blame thatcher for the high levels of personal credit seen now. She did allow a lowe savings ratio rather than actually much of a credit boom from what i remember she was also quite lecturing about good housekeeping.

To me the high level of personal debt is due mainly to the prices of houses and house price inflation. thatcher while making abit of a mess on controling inflation at certain times was strong about the concept of controlling inflation.

also are credit cards bad. i use them all the time. part of the problem is when should the government control access to credit and when does personal responsibility kick in.

The biggest problem were her there was lowering interest rates to create a boom to win an election.

I strongly disliked mirus which subsidised credit.

"I would argue with a couple of things. Point 4) because the way they 'encouraged' people to own their own homes was through selling council houses off at a massive discount under right to buy. "

She encouraged home ownership. Most people now aspire to it. I disagreed as a said before with the policy she used to encourage this mirus. Damaged scottish industry.

With regard to selling of council houses. Abit more complicated area. I think there are alot of housing issues. the prices in the south are silly but it is a consequence of ensouraging all the wealth to the south and not distributing it. In scotland we really need a better housing stock. Part of the problem is see is the flats that we cheapish about 10yrs ago are expensive now. I think part of the problem is the lack of family type housing and the silly money that they cost now.
65

DAVID,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 11:26:08
Re Clyde shipyards. Surely the shipyard owners need to take some responsibility for their woes in the 70s and 80s? I seem to recall that they notoriously under-invested in new techniques so that their competitors such as Korea rapidly overtook them and left them standing in their wake.

Is anyone prepared to acknowledge this or are we still blaming the Tories for everything?
66

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 11:27:09
60 Thistldhu
Look at water rates. Scotland has a state run water authority and an abundance of water in lochs and reservoirs. In 2004/05 the water rates charged on an average band D hose were £334.

Much of England and Wales is flat with very little natural water features sch as lakes. There are 11 privatised, non-subsidised water companies there. In 2004/05 only one of the 11 had an average charge (for water and sewerage combined) of over £334 - South west water at £356. The privatised water companies in England and Wales make profits for their shareholders, pay corporation tax and still manage to provide water cheaper than the state owned water authority in Scotland.
67

Thistledhu,

20/05/2008 11:30:26
David i think your forgetting the main problem was the strenth of the pound that made it very hard for british heavy industry to compete but made those in the money markets (tory heartlands) a fortune hence the rich got richer and the poor got poorer the cornerstone of thatcherist econnomics
68

Alan B,

20/05/2008 11:30:43
#Miss H

"I also have worked in the public sector and the private sector and while I recognise that it can be stressful in the private sector I just don't think it is the same kind of stress."

I agree. The different types of stress can be different in different jobs within the public sector. also different people handle stress differently. ie what is stressful to one person is not stressful to another. some of that comes down to how good u are at ur job. It also comes down to how well u get on with ur boss. the culture of the organisation.

if u have a boss u do not get on with, if u have poor relationships with ur colleagues, if u feel out ur depth in ur job that causes stess.

private sector stess tends to come from over work. politics (that is also relevent to public), and mainly job security.

i see little reason for non front line public sector stress beyond having a boss that u do not get on with.

Front line is completely different. But again we must ensure that we recruit people who can handle the job and encourage people to move on if they cannot.

In someways staying so long in public sector jobs is part of the problem. people are remotivated and inspired when the move to different jobs.

69

Miss H,

20/05/2008 11:31:43
66 But how much are these private companies spending on infrastructure and improving the quality of the water? You can still drink water out the tap in Scotland - I wouldn't try that anywhere in England!
70

kimba,

20/05/2008 11:37:44
63.They can "clamour" all they like,it will take over 2,000 house of commons bills not to mention intense negotiations which will take years,not to mention the 30 billion from westminster,which will stop immediately.
71

The Strategist,

20/05/2008 11:37:59
There is almost a direct correlation between the deregulation of the City of London and the massive increase in the trade deficit.

Investment in industry simply collapsed post the City "big bang" and in fact there was a major effort to divest ourselves of as much industrial capability as we could. The destruction of GEC and ultimately Marconi was typical of City and Govt thinking.
72

Alan B,

20/05/2008 11:38:30
#hertscot

I do agree wider share ownership while not so much being a con was a failure and silly.

"with a little bit of guts and foresight from our respective governments over the past 30 odd years, we could have protected and grew state assets for the benefit of the then owners"

The problem with that argument is quite simply keeping industry in the public sector just does not work.

All the industries thatcher inherited were a complete mess making losses and totally inefficient. The idea that the government could turn round british leyland and make good cars was simply not going to happen.

Bt after privisation rahter than being vastly overmanned and taking money from the tax payer because a massive tax payer.

Owning public sector industries was overrated. It is a matter of delivering good products to the customer (us) and having viable jobs (for us), with the company payng taxes (for us) to enjoy good public services like education and nhs.

The big problem is governments take political decision for the companies they run and not economic. This can be papered over in the short run but after a while u end up with the mess we had in the 70s.

Yes in theory government owning the means of production and everyone working for the government in some social utopia sound fine. it just does not and has not worked.
73

Thistledhu,

20/05/2008 11:39:55
69 spot on
#66 you choose not to mention that every summer weather regardless the water supply in southern England goes into chaos. the same super efficant companys have been fined repeatedly for failing to provide a satisfactory service and not stop the millions of gallons of water lost due to the victorian pipes they fail to replace but still pay there shareholders a handsome dividend
74

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 11:41:22
69 Miss H
Water companies have to adhere to the regulations laid down by Oftwat ( The regulator of the industry) and the EU. They have invested huge amounts in the maintence and improvement of supply. The water is suitable drinking in all of the areas - if it wasn't the company would be fined heavily by Oftwat
75

Alan B,

20/05/2008 11:42:35
#Miss H

I disagree with water privisation as it fails the basic test for me: can u have competition. Without competition privatisation does not fulfil the benefits that can accrue from it.

However we also should look at reasons for privatising companies.
1)competition - ruled out here
2)freedom to borrow to invest
3)try to make the company deliver for consumer rather than employee. Unionisation in the public sector is a problem.

The big thing is if we going to keep industries in the public sector becuase they cannot have a competive market is to addres pt 2 and 3.
76

kimba,

20/05/2008 11:45:38
69.Think you,ve forgotten about kielder,which supplies the north-east of England,purer water you will never find.
77

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 11:46:21
73 Thistledhu
My father has lived in Hampshire for 20 years and has never had any problem with water supply. Each summer he waters his lawn regularly. Yor coment that the water supply Southen England goes into "chaos" every summer are wildly inaccuarte.
78

Miss H,

20/05/2008 11:47:33
74 English water companies have been fined repeatedly.
79

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 20/05/2008 11:49:52
Which energy and land rich, small NW European INDEPENDENT nation now has a debt 11 times its GNP and an inflation rate of 11.8%?

Ah, but Alexander the Portly would never let uz be like Icleand. Would he?
80

kimba,

20/05/2008 11:50:10
78. Not Northumbria water.
81

kimba,

20/05/2008 11:51:35
79. Would'nt he!
82

Buckpool Loon,

Cheshire 20/05/2008 11:51:56
I suppose opposition parties have to say something about their intentions especially while the government of the day seem's to be in melt down through a self induced coma. But in essence, cutting taxes and public spending are mantra's of empty rhetoric used by all and achieved by none.

It's rhetoric, because the governments seek to keep hidden how powerless they really are in controlling events both domestic and international. They make economic decisions in isolation other than the immediate percieved (often shallow) gain. While the world of commerce, faster to digest, analyse and respond takes advantage of the loopholes and profits by them.

The result is the governments by obscuring the facts and using the techniques of the spin doctors and the Ad men, erode the respect and belief the electorate may have given them. Once that happens your left with the untenable and inexcusable position Labour is in today.

The fact is governments can be too big. Have too many pitches with too many differing games going on in them. It's a critique that can fairly be applied to the UK. In truth the UK has never recovered from the bankruptcy brought on by the second world war. But, unlike Germany or Japan who had to accept the title losers,the UK was classed as a winner. One unfortunately unable to plunder and reap its reward, other than to end up in hoc to the leader of the new world order the USA.

Part of the price we had to pay for that hoc was to follow their way. To absorb their practices and values; and unfortunately to act in their vanities. The losers were given sustenance and charity to solace their humiliation, the UK was given inadequate loans and handed strings which they had to self attach in order to become puppets.

Instead of buckling down and mirroring the regenerative methods of the losers, our politicians choose to try and emulate a victory dividend from an empty pot while maintaining fading echoes of being a world power. It's this vanity which still
83

Methalions,

20/05/2008 11:52:50
65

Yes there were frequent strikes but -

"Foreign shipyards received huge subsidies from their governments which enabled them to win orders that might have gone to Scottish yards."

84

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 11:53:11
78 Miss H
You are actually proving my point. If they do not provide an proper service they are fined. This obviously effects the profits for their shareholders. There is therefore an incentive to remedy the situation which caused the fine. Waht happens if Scottish water provides an improper service?
85

Alan B,

20/05/2008 11:58:11
#Methalions

The main problem is since the end of the 2nd world war britain became progressively more and more uncompetitive, until the late 70s.

loss making pubic industries control by the unions were never going to have the capital investment needed to ensure a modern industry.
86

Buckpool Loon,

Cheshire 20/05/2008 11:59:32
82 Cont: It's this vanity which still today empties the exchequers pot faster and with no returns than any domestic provisions their political mantra's chose to direct.
87

ACS,

St Andrews 20/05/2008 12:03:47
I thaink we all agree that the public sector needs to be trimmed, if not culled! #12 collection and administration of TV licences would be a good start, then car tax or even the whole DVLA, the passport office, the child support agency, the tax credit office. For the latter, Gordon raised main earners tax bills by £500 per annum to pay our partners £40 per month and created a whole new department to administer the credit. Then there's a whole tier of penny-pinching and non-productive management in our health services, education departments, defence services etc and a massive form-filling, data-inputting, auditing, customer-facing administrative bureaucracy that a Communist state would be proud of feeding off it. This is all at a national level before even considering what goes on locally, and I haven't even mentioned benefits. Can Cameron cut public spending, you bet he can.
88

brownlie,

20/05/2008 12:04:55
53 4CHC

What a splendid idea to privatise all public services. Have a look at the MOD Defence Contracts Bulletin where you will see that the MOD gives out contracts of over £16 billion for products and services on an annual basis and the MOD DCB will "give you access to this lucrative market". I would read lucrative as a significant profit - paid for by the tax-payer.

A very small example of this significant profit is that the MOD's privatised IT company can charge £50 for a computer mouse which is freely available elsewhere for £5. Multiply that profit throughout the MOD and you will find a significant and un-necessary drain on the public purse.
89

Alan B,

20/05/2008 12:05:18
#Ugly George

I am not convinced that privatising industry that is in effect a monopoly is a good model. I am pro privisation as long as there is competition.