Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Scots faith leaders support Sharia debate

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 09 February 2008
THE CHURCH of Scotland has accused politicians of being too quick to reject the Archbishop of Canterbury's suggestion that Sharia laws be recognised in Britain.
Dr Rowan Williams, the leader of the Anglican Church, yesterday called for an "accommodation" with parts of the Islamic legal code, but this was immediately dismissed by Number 10 and the Scottish Government yesterday.

But Morag Mylne, the conveno
r of the Church of Scotland's council, said the Anglican leader was sparking a sensible debate about the role of faith and law.

And challenging a statement from the Prime Minister, she said: "There is a difficulty in saying British law is informed by British values. That begs the question, what are British values?"

She added: "There can be a compatibility with the same law applying to us all but recognising for different groups there are ways of resolving disputes that are particular to them."

She also said that faith was already recognised under English and Scots laws. For example, doctors who hold religious views do not have to carry out abortions.

Bashir Maan, the convenor of the Muslim Council of Scotland, said he was mystified at the furore.

"Why are people so uptight? Those who are saying the Archbishop should never have started the debate should recognise that the Archbishop has got the right to free speech."

Mr Maan added that elements of Sharia already operated in the Muslim community and were recognised by the state, for example in Islamic mortgages and wills. But he said there should be greater recognition of other Islamic rules such as the code governing divorce and inheritance.

The Scottish Episcopal Church, however, said it would oppose any formal change to the law. A spokeswoman for the Most Rev Dr Idris Jones said: "The law is the law and it is not something that can be compromised."

Noman Tahir, editor of the Muslim newspaper the iWitness said that the Archbishop's views had become "warped" through the media prism. He had been pointing out that "people in this country have allegiances above the uniformed legislators in Westminster.

"Unfortunately, the Archbishop's legitimate point on this multifaceted ethical issue has been warped – no-one is calling for an overhaul of the British legal system or stoning to be legalised, it is a minor aspect of Sharia for Muslim families in relation to issues like marriage and inheritance."

Sharia courts already operate in parts of England but Scotland's 50,000 Muslims have yet to get their own tribunal.

However, Dr Williams faced criticism from David Blunkett, the former home secretary, who said formalising Sharia law in the UK would be "catastrophic" for social cohesion.

Mr Blunkett said people must not be excluded from the law because of cultural or faith reasons.

WHY ONTARIO WENT BACK TO 'ONE LAW FOR ALL'ONE province in Canada seriously considered recognising Sharia law in family disputes.

Ontario was faced with the suggestion that Islamic law be used to settle issues such as divorce and custody.

Family faith-based tribunals had already been set up by Catholic and Jewish communities following the passing of the province's Arbitration Act in 1991.

However, it would not have been fair to allow Jews and Catholics to use their religion to resolve disputes while not recognising Islam.

In 2003, the Islamic Institute of Civil Justice said it intended to establish similar tribunals for the 400,000 Muslims in Ontario. But a storm of protests erupted in Canada as well as Paris, London and Vienna.

Ontario's premier, Dalton McGuinty, ruled against the move in September 2005, saying there should be "one law for all Ontarians".

He was also forced to ban other religions which had been using faith-based tribunals.





The full article contains 620 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 08 February 2008 10:51 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

G S Ohm ?™,

09/02/2008 00:30:58
Long ago, when I was in the school debating club, the chair would reprimand you for being abusive.

"Idiotic" is far from complimentary and betrays a limited vocabulary.

amo html
2

Jimmy the Pie,

09/02/2008 00:46:14
I'm looking forward to some live entertainment in Union Street, Aberdeen. Beheadings, stonings and amputations. Just the thing before a few pints in the Prince of Wales!!
3

AJM,

09/02/2008 00:49:45
Fundamentally I believe that you should be treated the same under law in the UK irrespective of your religious believe. Just because one particular religious group may have issues with that law, does not mean we have to change our laws to accommodate them.

To me this not about what you do or do not believe, but about a set of common values of what is right and wrong and that does change with time, but not for one minority or another. Some may argue that is because we have been for a thousand years a Christian country, yes we have, but that is the way it is. If you do not want, or are not prepared to share in those values that is your choice. We have a great tradition in this island of assimilation, not separation, each wave of immigration has added to the diversity, not kept itself separate.
4

AJM,

09/02/2008 00:58:41
#3 AM2
I watched the Newsnight debate and was at the same time enlightened, by some of the debate and others saddened. I felt that the Anglican minister did not have a grip of the issues, appeared lost in a sea of goodwill and appeasement, the Muslim professor to easy to brush over the problems of fundamentalism and the violence that was spawning.
5

Senga Jean,

09/02/2008 01:00:28
I am going to lie down in a dark room. For why? As an SNP supporter I agree with AM2. Is that OK?
6

AJM,

09/02/2008 01:02:55
#8 Senga Jean
Yes but I am sure you will get over it. Welcome to the real world.
7

whitegold,

Shire 09/02/2008 01:04:14
I have little time for Islam - and it would be easy to 'muslim bash' on this topic. However I can see for many muslims why it could be beneficial.

1) People voluntarily use it as a form of arbitration in civil matters. That seems OK to me.

2) It is even being used in low level crime matters. I can sympathise with this. Law & order are a joke in this country, and low level crime is of no interest to the police or the courts. I'm a non muslim and think Islam is ridiculous - but frankly I would have more confidence in a local community muslim 'court' handling these matters than the rubbish we have around today. If I think that (as someone who is hostile to Islam), then I can see why some muslims see this as useful.

3) I used to have a pride in this country - but this has been eroded by this Labour government & I can't see it coming back. If I feel this way & everyday see more PC lunacy from the establishment and an absence of values I can respect, then many muslims are going to find their identity not in 'Britishness', which now has no meaning, but in their own cultural values.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if we had decent law and order, decent values that commanded respect etc then probably muslims wouldn't feel the need to go along this line. It is the bankcrupcy of our culture that is sending people to go their own way.
8

The Former Mr. Angry,

09/02/2008 01:28:04
The Archbish just sounds more and more like a space cadet with utterances like these. Little wonder that Christian values and numbers are declining. He really must resign now. We are just too tolerant of oppressive laws like Sharia. AM2 has already enumerated the reasons why it is so. Before the howls of protest, anyone tried to set up a church in Saudi? Tried to obtain British justice in Afghanistan?

The apologists claim that it's OK really, just deals with minor internal matters like marital and business disputes. That is the thin end of the wedge and should be strictly outlawed. If you're here in the UK you must undertake to abide by the secular law of the land, not any old religious version. If you're still not happy seek Sharia law or whatever where it is prevalent. Volunteers anyone?
9

,

09/02/2008 01:29:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

truthsleuth,

South of the Border 09/02/2008 01:38:02
We in the UK have fought for freedom from the dicatorship of religion and the religious establishment and to disconnect it from the State. Just when we have achieved success in come the apostles of religious dictatorship supported by the Fifth column in the form of the present leaders of the Christian faith who are determined to reverse all these gains and to take us back to the dark ages.
The Americans have a word for the Archbishop of Canterbury and the PC faithfull.it is 'Suckers'
Why do I say this.
Those of the Islamic faith utter soothing words that like the Nazi appeasers before the second world war believed or wanted to believe Hitlers utterances all of which lulled the suckers into compacency.
Meanwhile the Mullahs quietly get on with their subversion which step by step will see Shariah Law introduced into the UK.
So I say wake up you suckers it may well be that the vast majority of Muslims do not support the fanatics then the Majority of Germans did not support the Nazis or for that matter the Majority of the pouplation of Northern Ireland support the IRA or the UDF.
11

Richardinho,

09/02/2008 01:46:49
There is a sensible debate to be had on this issue above the level of the shrieking tabloids.

There is nothing you can do to stop people following laws of their own choosing, and of recognizing a governing authority other than the state. This is what religion is. An obvious example is religious observance of certain dietary rules.

The important caveat is; so long as the law of the land takes precedence.

Many people, myself included, tear their hair out at the level of low level crime and lack of community spirit in our country. Local solutions ARE the answer in many cases, and I think what the Archbishop was getting at was that communities taking an active role in dealing with disputes and trouble makers is perhaps a good thing.
12

Roberta Burns,

09/02/2008 02:11:37
So religious groups can pick and choose which laws will apply and when and how they are enacted?

What about non-believers in these Sharia Law communities that the Arch would like to see? Will Muslims who seek to integrate into British society be subjected to Sharia Law? What about their choice?
Will Brits living in these communities be subjected to it? Where is there choice?

The whole thing is madness and I, at least, am glad, the Westminster Government will resist this. I'm just waiting to hear Alex Salmond's views on the matter, bearing in mind that he is thinking of assisting more faith schools in Scotland. If I was a believer, I would say, god help us all.
13

Richardinho,

09/02/2008 02:16:56
If people want to submit to certain codes of conduct, I don't see how you can stop them.
As I said before, providing they're not breaking the law of the land.
14

CowalDude,

Alaba 09/02/2008 02:22:25
Most rational,decent and advanced humans will want to progressively eradicate all superstition and advanced superstition (religion) from the planet. Unfortunately the "religion or superstition" virus or gene defect has not yet been isolated but with enough research we will, like the fight against AIDS, eventually overcome this weakness in the human genome/ constitution and perhaps develop, over time, a variant of the MMR innoculation to protect ourselves from this distasteful condition.
That said, there are many "shared" ethical human values which stretch across the primitive god/allah/jehovah-based Islam/Judaic/Christian superstious overlay and as a society and species we should play the best ball, wherever it lies!
15

Legacy,

N.E. 09/02/2008 02:30:35
Everyone is 'Free' to observe their own Religous practises in Britain, as long as no British Laws are broken.
Shariah Law has no place in Britain, period.
If Muslim women were to be asked, "Do you want Shariah Law in Britain?" The result would be a resounding no! But there again that question won't be asked anyway.
No debate or discussion about Shariah Law is needed, it won't happen, Shariah Law is not acceptable to British Society, end of.
16

An Beal Bacht,

09/02/2008 03:19:44
1 - AM2, Glasgow,UK 09/02/2008 00:18:50:

Excellent post.
17

An Beal Bacht,

09/02/2008 03:24:17
10whitegold, Shire 09/02/2008 01:04:14;

A good and honest post.
18

An Beal Bacht,

09/02/2008 03:26:43
12 - thewitness, 09/02/2008 01:29:37:

Spooky!!! I'll have to check that out.
19

An Beal Bacht,

09/02/2008 03:29:02
14 - Richardinho, 09/02/2008 01:46:49:

Excellent post.
20

An Beal Bacht,

09/02/2008 03:48:35
I think some of us are talking at cross purposes. As AM2 firmly states Sharia is a no go area. However, as Whitegold points our - how can we justify denying muslims the opportunity to establish some kind of social order within their own communities when clearly social order has been eroded in the broader community where multiculturalism has rendered British cultural practices obsolete? Having no central guiding tradition or practice we would condemn muslims to the same alienated condition we have brought upon ourselves.

As Richardinho points out:

" Local solutions ARE the answer in many cases, and I think what the Archbishop was getting at was that communities taking an active role in dealing with disputes and trouble makers is perhaps a good thing."

Perhaps community involvement should be mandatory. Scots certainly need to meet each other outside the pub and in a serious way. If we have no cohesion as a people - no traditional values by which to organize our social behaviour - then we have nothing to offer muslims. So why should they abandon their social customs to anarchy?
21

,

09/02/2008 06:40:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

Over my dead body!! 09/02/2008 06:42:06
26% of Mosques apparently have Al-Queda type material and many more guest speakers of severe right wing tendencies.

Would you give Chairman Mao, Mussolini, Stalin etc a legal framework in your country?

never happen
23

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

09/02/2008 07:04:52
Should the RC Church, Protestant Churches, Anglican Churches, be permitted sway in their communities?

NO, NO, NO.

Thats what these Archbishops etc are after aren't they! Greater political roles or otherwise over their flocks by using Islam as the pawn.

No, NO, NO
24

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

09/02/2008 07:12:21
I have not heard of anything quite as ill thought or possibly corrupt from the Church to gain entry into law creating within a democracy - ever.

These archbishops etc would appear to be nothing less than dangerous going by their outpourings.
25

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

09/02/2008 07:13:29
The again, given my self imposed title, shou;d women be made to wear nothing when the temperature rises above 20oC?
26

Conan the Librarian™,

09/02/2008 07:38:56
I...Um...Er...Agree with AM2...:-(

Apart from the gambing that is.
27

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 09/02/2008 08:10:22
There can be no discussion when it comes to Sharia law having any bearing on the criminal law, full stop. The law as defined by the UK and Scots Parliaments must remain paramount. In terms of civil law, though, what's wrong with two people reaching a written agreement about a matter that is done in terms of their religious convictions? As long as the agreement was freely reached by both parties. I worry, though, given the social pressures within Muslim communities, that people, especially women, might be expected to conform to agreements reached under Sharia Law. In those cases, there should always remain an 'appeal' available to the national courts.
28

james 1st,

hamilton 09/02/2008 08:52:24
if muslin leaders want aspects of sharia law then they should emigrate to a muslim country as should any other muslims who want any aspect of sharia law. those muslims who respect british law are welcome to stay and live here
29

zeno,

GLASGOW 09/02/2008 09:07:59
Even if this is only about marriage, divorce and inheritance laws, what is it about our laws on these that some Muslims don't like?
30

Media 1,

cape town 09/02/2008 09:34:19
The problem here, is that the church has a voice in politics, and it should'nt.
The church should remain silent in matters such as Sharia Law, we dont need their archaic, one dimensional indoctrination on matters of a political nature. The church was dismantled as the ruling organisation over the people, and they have been fighting ever since to regain control.
Can anyone imagine the horror of being ruled by a church? I would sooner die than be governed by such depravity!
31

yockel,

09/02/2008 09:56:40
Agree with AM2 on this.
As for suggesting sharia could perhaps be restricted to family law (to begin with?), that is probably the last place it should be allowed.
Sparked a sensible debate? Get real.
All the churches, coucils of wizards etc should just butt out. Law is about all of us not just your little cliques.
32

Andrew Allan,

09/02/2008 10:00:09
Considering we still haven't cleared up the question what it means to be Scottish, then how are we supposed to agree with any statement which puts forward that there are set british values in Scotland.
33

Andrew Allan,

09/02/2008 10:13:06
Consider this, even one decade ago there were things which we thought were set in stone, and now they have changed. In the last few years the number of rightwing christian fundermentalists have grown in Scotland and in those respects if this carries on we could easily be heading back to many aspects which occur in sharia law, and used to exist in Scotland four hundred years ago.
34

Conan the Librarian™,

09/02/2008 10:26:57
37
Over my dead atheist body Andrew.
35

Rational cynic,

Edinburgh 09/02/2008 10:42:47
What a stooshie! This needs some careful thought.

First, what do we mean by "the law"? Well, IANL (I am not a lawyer) but there's criminal law, civil law, and religious law.

As I understand it, in this country, the criminal law and civil law are determined by Parliament - in Edinburgh, or Westminster, or Brussels - by elected representatives of the peoples of Scotland, the UK, or the EU. These laws apply equally to all residents of the jurisdictions, and are enforced by the appropriate courts. Breaking these laws results in penalties being imposed by the courts, such penalties including prison terms and fines which are enforced by the state.

By contrast religious "law" is determined by the various religions, it may or may not be agreed in a democratic way, it is not relevant to those who are not members of that religion, it is "enforced" by the relevant religious leaders, and penalties are a matter for the relevant religion.

Criminal and civil law takes precedence over religious "law".

No religion has a right to dictate the criminal and civil laws that apply to me as a citizen; it is up to the members of each religion to decide whether or not to accept the laws of their religion e.g. for Roman Catholics to accept or reject their church's laws on contraception.

Also, we still have representatives from the Anglican church who are members of the House of Lords ex officio. This is not acceptable in our modern pluralistic democracy. The Anglican Church should be disestablished and have no greater say in the creation of criminal or civil law in our country than any other citizen.

Finally, this issue has exposed the dreadful state of journalism in the UK. The headlines in most newspapers were severely ill-informed and badly misinterpreted what Rowan Williams said.
36

James,

Dundee 09/02/2008 10:43:22
Totally agree with AM2s positioning.

However the Law of the Land should not be above review, and should continue to evolve to serve and guide the people.

There are already elements of religious law, in practice, such as 'Dhabiha halal' 'kashrut''Islamic Banking' and 'jus canonicum' which are followed by adherents of the religions.

These are all examples of CHOICE and are clearly not binding on non adherents, and thats the difference in essence between Democracy and Theocracy.

Worryingly, people like W Smith will use articles like this to promote his own agenda.
To him and his ilk, Muslims are like the Catholics before, and the Jews before them: essentially a 5th column, serving other masters and never to be trusted. His WASP supremacist and anti-democratic position is every bit as dangerous as the bigamist hipocrate Abu Hamza or the gun-runner Parviz Khan.

37

d.j.,

09/02/2008 10:52:38
36 Andrew Allan
I couldn't agree more.

"Considering we still haven't cleared up the question what it means to be Scottish, then how are we supposed to agree with any statement which puts forward that there are set british values in Scotland".


Indeed until one is sure of this how can anyone pass much of a comment on Sharia Law or British Law (as no such thing)exists.

The Scots don't even know what it is to be Scottish that is other than not being English.


38

Alte,

09/02/2008 10:55:14
I just dont think there is a place for sharia law in our soceity
39

,

09/02/2008 11:03:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

Grahamski,

Falkirk 09/02/2008 11:17:48
The last post apart, I think it is encouraging that political debate on these threads can take place without party political partisanship. I genuinely believe that as a society we face attack from both Islamic and Christian fundamentalism. The Enlightenment itself is under threat from the lunatic fringe who would teach our children creationist myths as science, for example. Rather than trying to find more ways to influence our society perhaps it would be better if the supporters of religions could find a way of influencing our society less and putting right some of the ills created by their beliefs.
They could also explain to us, who live in a liberal, western democracy the advantages of adopting a medieval middle-eastern legal and moral framework to live within.
41

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 09/02/2008 11:19:05
This country is no stranger to religious interference. For centuries our laws our culture our way of life was dominated by Christian religious doctrine which worked its way in because of superstition fear and ignorance. It pervaded its way into every aspect of our day to day existance and is still working in the background of our society.
It has been diluted over time and is more open to question mainly thanks to education being made available to all. We no longer have to fear any encroachment of ideals or beliefs from elsewhere because we are all educated and sophisticated enough to make up our own minds.
The fact that this issue is being so widely and passionately debated is proof of that.
Dont let the fear and superstition return and ruin the debate. My personal view is no religious doctrine should be allowed to interfere with the basic rule of law and there should only be one law for all.
Maybe one day we will have a law for all.
42

Publius,

Girvan 09/02/2008 12:15:17
#10 Whitegold; #14 Richardino; #31 Draco was a Wimp. And others.
To say that private disputes may be setted 'voluntarily' settled 'under Sharia law is to miss the point. In matrimonial disputes - enforced marriages, divorces etc - many women will be ordered to volunteer. Young women and those with imperfect won't stand a chance.
Also when the law was changed to accommodate Moslem views about usury it simply accommodated casuistry (or sophistry?. The outcome is that Moslems don't pay interest if they borrow money to buy property, they pay 'rent' and eventually own the property. The process is simply hire purchase under another name. Gordon Brown simply changed the law so that people who buy in this one don't have to pay two lots of stamp duty.
In any case Moslems must be integrated into the mainstream and that means having the same laws as everbody else.
43

Publius,

Girvan 09/02/2008 12:16:16
Correction to previous post. ... those with imperfect English won't stand a chance...
44

McGinty,

09/02/2008 12:35:38
#1 Interesting you don't mention Religious Freedom (which is also supported by the European Convention on Human Rights).
45

Legacy,

N.E. 09/02/2008 12:35:38

Sharia Law, is the code of Law derived from the Koran and from the teachings and examples of Mohammed 'Sharia Law is only applicable to Muslims.' Under Islamic Law there is No separation between Church and State.
In effect Sharia Law is Islamic Law.
In Scotland we are governed by Scots Law, and unless we become an Islamic State, Sharia Law does not, and will not happen.
46

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 09/02/2008 12:49:13
49

Correct there is no legal obligation anywhere in the UK for any decisions made by individuals using Sharia Law to reach an agreement on anything.
Sharia law is not seen as being legally binding in any national law court within the UK any more that Catholic law on the use of condoms or abortion.
47

Sanny,

Portugal 09/02/2008 12:57:50
1 AM2,Glasgow: -
First time ever AM2 I find we are in total agreement,if only on the question of Shari law. For idiots such as Morag, and I make no apology for the use of the word idiot, I can only assume but they have neither knowledge or experience of Islam and its inhumanity.

Unlike many posters here, I studied Islam in the nineteen fifties, have also spent many years living and working in Islamic communities in the Middle East, North Africa and the Far East , therefore I claimed to have a reasonable knowledge of their customs and practice. My opinion, based on a lifetime experience, is that not only should we prevent any form of Shari law being implemented in our country, we should also insist that all Muslims comply to the letter with British law, whether English or Scottish, this includes the abolition of the cruelty associated with Halal.

This year will mark the 90th anniversary of the 1918 Representation of the People Act, that gave women the right to vote in Britain for a very first time. Since that time British woman have steadily moves towards a position of full equality with men, and rightly so! Despite their protestations, this situation is an anathema to Muslim men. I cannot understand why the various women’s movements today do not stand up and defend the Muslim woman.

I would suggest those such as Morag who would defend Shari law go and spend some time in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia or other Islamic countries where Shari a law is enforced. Let them watch the stoning to death of a woman for adultery when she has been raped; or a man being beheaded for choosing leave the Islamic faith.

We need to remember that from Mohammed on it has been the intention of Islam to convert the entire world to their corrupt faith. Initially this was done by force, today it is done by stealth.

To those of the Christian faith I would say, remember the words of Jesus; “render unto Caesar that which is Caesars and render unto God that which is Gods”. Which I i
48

­­AyrshireScot™,

09/02/2008 12:59:46
44 Well said.
49

ARP,

Eyemouth, Berwickshire 09/02/2008 13:03:44
There are hundreds, maybe even thousands of quasi-judicial 'courts' to be found in all businesses with employees where discipline is administered within strict codes of practice. Similarly, all professional bodies that are self-regulating have 'courts' and even 'courts of appeal'. There are disciplinary bodies in almost all religious organisations. What is all the fuss about?
50

qohldr,

09/02/2008 13:04:17
The law (plus rules and regulations) should apply to all, gender, sexuality, colour or religion should be no excuse for an individual or group to be exempt from the laws that all other have to abide by.
All these laws that allow minorities to break laws that the majority of society have to live by should be removed.
If a non Sikh were to wear a turban and ride a motorbike they would be charged with breaking the law as those who do not eat halal meat would be if they hung an animal up by its hind legs and cut its throat allowing it to bleed to death.
Employers cannot advertise to employ a white person, a male or a heterosexual but they can a non white person, a female or a gay.
Now it is being suggested that even more laws that will apply only to a minority should be made legal.
It is about time the powers that be stop making and allowing laws that discriminate and insist that the law applies to every one equally and if this means revisiting and removing some of the laws that already exist then so be it.
51

Geomac 1,

Scotland 09/02/2008 13:04:36
This man is an embarrassment to both the Church of England and the country. The CoE has lost its way ever since he was appointed to his current position.
I have lived in a country where Sharia law was the law of the land and it was not for me - hence my return to the UK.
The Churches of Scotland and England need to spend more time and effort in defending their religions and to stop political interference
Those who wish to be subjected to Sharia law should up sticks and head off to one of the many countries where it is practised - and stop trying to force their ways on the rest of us here in the UK.
52

Nikostratos,

09/02/2008 13:15:46
#1 AM2

Not wishing to correct you AM2. but my understanding of Islamic law is that being homosexual is not punishable. only the physical act much like in most of the western world a few years ago.

And to be honest the banning of alcohol if not the promoting of a higher degree of abstinence would probably be a good thing for the U.K
53

Disputer,

09/02/2008 13:25:32
24

Yep. A racist. Why mention that LDP is a Jew? You're a sad guy.
54

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 09/02/2008 14:06:04
54

The only people in this country above the law today are our politicians not ethnic minorities.
55

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 09/02/2008 14:20:25
I see by this thread that fear ignorance and predudice are still motivating many posters. If this country was so suseptible to Religious doctrine none of us would be using condoms and abortions would be illegal. Everything would shut down on Sundays and alcohol would be illegal.
Church attendance would be mandatory and donations would be taken at sourse from your salaries as a tax.
But it isnt and we are not. We determine the extent to which religion cohabits within our lives.
That choice wasnt given to us by a benevolant Christian church it was taken by Independently thinking individuals sometimes by force.
We are where we are today because we are not suseptable to religious doctrine and wont blindly bow down to such doctrine no matter how it is presented.
Give the scaremongering and vile bias the contempt it deserves and stop worrying about waking up tomorrow to find you have to pray to the East 5 times a day.
56

Thatcher's love child,

09/02/2008 15:20:11
The United Kingdom has a proud liberal history of protecting rights of ethnic groups. It is now time to support the ethnic majority's view that we are cultural christians and our current legal system applies to one and all.

Any waivering or pandering to the Muslims should be confined to civil matters within the current laws. Such as where there is already provision for two or more parties to negotiate (as they please) before bringing an action to court.

If Muslims reject the United Kingdoms values and laws, it is up to them to challenge them through Europe or through the courts, under existing laws. If they fail in over-turning any decisions on how they must behave. Tough.
57

Conan the Librarian™,

09/02/2008 15:59:01
56
Nikos is your Alzheimers playing up?
Banning alcohol was tried before somewhere in the west...
58

boudica,

Glasgow 09/02/2008 16:23:32
So the leader of the Church of Scotland has now come out in favour of this ....Another one who has lost touch with her congratation and they wonder why the churches are empty ..
we are discussing it .and the majority has said No way .... we have not took to the streets running around in the demanding blood and that the Archbish be Burned and Muslim communities are not under siege ...No Mosques have been blown up with beleivers inside nor are we burning Effigies or Flags ...Now what would have happened if the Archbish demanded all Sharia courts be disbanded ( as they should along with others ) and what would have been the reaction of the Muslim Community ..do you think it would have been like ours ..but one thing as come out of this and should be heeded by the Muslim Communities is that the Majority in the UK would not stand for it and it seems is no longer Silent on the Government or Christian Leaderships comsistant Appeasement of the Islamic Groups demand on our Society and culture ..we have long gone past the Fuedal System and never intend for its return ..
59

,

09/02/2008 16:33:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
60

Thatcher's love child,

09/02/2008 16:44:06
63 Middle Watch

Just laughed at your post there. I think I know what you are trying to say, but your post can be misinterpretted and is rather sarcastically worrying.

I am a white middle-classed christian and UK citizen by birth, my parents were the same. My grand parents were working class white christians who fought the war alonside everyone else.

So, I think you mean that anyone with a cultural domicile of choice can leave for that culture if they don't like it.

But I fear the misinterpratation is more accurate. I am free to leave (for where I don't know!) if I don't like it once the SNP/New Labour make the UK a vassal state of Islam over?

Hehe, let's hope we don't lose our sanity just yet. I'd hate to see boats leaving with every man women and child born and bred in the UK being forceably deported to somewhere else.
61

Nikostratos,

09/02/2008 17:20:23
#61 conan the whatever

works quiet well in many other countries.......albeit with whipping here and a mutilation there........

And it is not nice to insult someone with a neurological impairment..........

Are u me mum????????
62

,

09/02/2008 17:52:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
63

Phil1,

Edinburgh 09/02/2008 18:10:25
Nikostratos,09/02/2008 13:15:46

Come on Nikostratos tell what else you want - for thieves we should cut off their hands, if you look at a women pluck out the eye, for adulters stoning for the woman hanging from a Crane as in Iran for the man?

Anymore new laws - ah yes what about us 55 million non Muslims? Will it be like in Saudi Arabia where women are just second class citizens no jobs, not allowed out, not allowed to drive etc. Mere chattels of their fathers, husbands or brothers

Come on tell us all the little things you would change as well as no alcohol. What about no tobacco you it is bad for us. Freedom of speech will have to go, no freedom of worship either except for Muslims of course as in Saudi Arabia.

The problem is the Archbishop of Canterbury says nothing about Muslim countries harsh, barbaric treatment of Christians. He says nothing about Muslim countries banning Christian worship or ignoring the rights of women, or homosexuals etc. He says nothing about the man sentenced to death in Afghanistan for downloading women's rights articles. No on all those issues he keeps his mouth shut and looks the other way.

He may be a nice, old man an academic but he is not fit to be a Christian leader - it’s lucky he got his job through the 'old boy' network.
64

weh,

09/02/2008 19:24:30
But Morag Mylne, the convenor of the Church of Scotland's council, said the Anglican leader was sparking a sensible debate about the role of faith and law."

Well Morag-i've got news for you.

I'll bet you a pound to a penny your average Scot doesn't CARE ONE JOT for the ramblings, pontifications and otherwise incoherent utterances by an obscure foreign cleric!

I will tell you why:-

1. He can't speak for us Scots-we MAKE OUR OWN LAWS!

2. Your average Scot (including myself) does not have a "thing" about moslems- as they appear to do dahn saath!

Finally, it would be more appropriate to your average Scot if the "Scottish" press and BBC would give us more HOME NEWS (unlike in recent days when it was common to ignore home grown news a la opposition parties shenanigans) instead of foisting upon its readership the likes of this complete "non-story" in this neck of the woods!



65

Nikostratos,

09/02/2008 19:29:58
#67 phil
Um good evening.. and in answer to your post..many if not most of those punishments would if given for other crimes..such as rape or paedophilia or murder. Find a large if not a majority support from people within the U.K....

Its only seen as barbaric if used for what in our society is seen as minor crimes.........many conservatives see the woman's role as being at home and it is for men to be the 'Breadwinner' and as that is not the case in British society explains the cause of many social problems.

Homosexuality has only been legal for a comparatively short time in the U.K.

In northern Ireland they are attempting to stop woman having abortions even if the woman is raped and wishes to have a termination.

phil life's a bit more complicated than you suggest.......
66

Miss H,

09/02/2008 19:31:13
There is of course no such thing as British law but maybe that is a minor point.

I personally do not have a problem with the law recognising the moral viewpoint of a particular religion. For example I think it is perfectly OK for Catholic doctors to be able to refer patients wanting an abortion to another GP. But of course the fact is that any doctor can do that. The law should recognise that there are issues where people are entitled to have a conscientous objection whatever the basis of that is.

I also don't see anything wrong with having things like an Islamic mortgages or an Islamic banking system. Their religion has fixed views on interest rates which means that in the past many Muslims were unable to buy a house until they had saved up the full purchase price. In today's climate that is obviously an impossibility for most people so it is good that banks have developed a form of mortgage which is compatible with Sharia law. It is actually Sharia law in practice in the UK. It's also the law of the market - meeting an unmet need.

However I think everybody is agreed, including the vast majority of Muslims, that when it comes to matters of individual rights and liberties there can only be one law. Where the law can accomodate things that are compatible with Sharia law, without the law having to be being changed as it were, then there is no difficulty. But you cannot change the law to accomodate Sharia law and you cannot have two different systems of law operating at once. That is obviouusly a nonsense. All in all I think the issue has been blown out of all proportion as most Muslims don't want Sharia law anyway.

Incidentally the basis of our legal system and democracy has nothing at all to do with Christianity. If you take a look at AM2's summary - which I actually agree is a pretty good distillaton of core western values, not just British - there is nothing specifically Christian about any of it.
67

Miss H,

09/02/2008 19:37:13
69 I tend to agree with you. Why the utterances of the Archbishop of Canterbury should be front page news in Scotland I do not know. Similarly, why the Church of Scotland should feel the need to jump in is also a mystery. They would be better off concentrating on things that actually matter to people in Scotland.
68

langtonian,

scotus 09/02/2008 23:41:07
World domination, that is the root Muslim principle,it is utterly at odds with the conceived principle's by which this country is governed, legaly, religiouse persuassion,and all secular matters.
Alex Salmond, along with Scottish faith leaders ,who should know better, are seen to be aligning both political and religiouse clout behind the errant Dr.Rowan Williams of the Anglican Church,Bashir Maan,the convenor of the Muslim council of Scotland,has Alex Salmond in his back pocket,it being a well documented fact that he,Salmond would supp with the devil himself if it would add to his voting collection.

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.