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Scots do not want to end the Union, merely modify it



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Published Date: 22 January 2008
Holyrood parties face big challenges and the constitutional issue is central to them in differing ways
IT'S time. Time for a change. Time to move on. This is the last column from this writer which will appear in this position in this paper. A new and extremely challenging role on the business desk awaits.

Sadly, it means no time for the glorious se
lf-indulgence of expressing a weekly opinion on the affairs of the nation.

The world of politics is a continuously fascinating one. There is always something new. Political parties take power and always, in the end, lose it. Politicians' fortunes ebb and flow. Plots and conspiracies abound. Policies evolve and change.

Over time, the decisions made by our elected representatives really do "make a difference", a phrase politicians use frequently, to the lives of the poor, long-suffering voters whose interests they are supposed to represent. Politics matters.

And having spent many years at both Westminster and Holyrood as a reporter – and worked, albeit for only a year, on the "dark side" as a special adviser to former First Minister Henry McLeish – politics had become like a drug. It is addictive, hard to kick. It induces an urge to go back for another hit. And another. And another.

But it is time to confront the addiction, something that counsellors will tell you can only be done if the subject wants to. This addict does, and reporting the world of business, vital to the success of this country, will be a way of remaining "clean".

Departing for new pastures is traditionally a reason to reflect. The temptation is to look back, to muse on what might have been, to settle a few old scores along the way. It is a temptation best resisted. What's done is done and cannot be undone.

So, instead, let us look forward to what could be and what should be in politics as it relates to Scotland. Few people would dispute that the election of an SNP government at Holyrood last May has given the Scottish Parliament a much-needed injection of democratic adrenaline.

It has been a theme of these columns that a Labour and Liberal Democrat administration grown stale and tired has been replaced by a party which was finally fit to govern, and prepared to do so.

Alex Salmond has had a rumbustious start to his premiership, resolutely refusing to be taken for granted by Westminster politicians, bristling on behalf of Scotland at every sleight, real or perceived.

A naturally belligerent politician, Mr Salmond tempered his style during the election and has generally resisted what even some of his party colleagues admit is a tendency to descend into hubris.

Mr Salmond's approach has, so far, been remarkably successful. The public seem to like his spikey approach to Westminster, his assertion of Scottishness, and appear to blame Gordon Brown, not the First Minister, for the chilly cross-Border relations.

In domestic policies, the SNP has been populist and is popular as a result. John Swinney's astute handing of the move to freeze council tax across Scotland has gone down well with voters, as has the initiative to reverse accident and emergency unit closures.

It has been, to use another theme from these columns, populism with a purpose, the purpose being to persuade the voters of Scotland that, first, the SNP could run the country under the devolved powers, but to reinforce the message that what the nation requires is independence.

And what strikes this columnist most about the time spent directly covering – or when engaged on a Westminster beat, merely closely observing – Scottish politics, is that the constitution question that has underlain modern Caledonian discourse remains.

Despite the best efforts of first Tory and then Labour politicians, much of Scottish politics still centres on the constitutional. The status of Scotland as a nation within a larger state, and the conflict and the anomalies that this throws up, makes that inevitable.

The consequences of that are uncomfortable for all of the major parties. For the SNP, there is the grave danger of conflating their current popularity with support for independence. They may be popular, but polls shows no desire for separation from the UK.

The Achilles heel of the Nationalists is the fundamental belief that many, though not all, have: that support for independence equates with patriotism. It is a mindset which deep, deep down simply cannot comprehend that one can be a Scottish patriot and not support independence. It is a weakness over which the SNP has yet to be properly confronted.

The test for the other political parties is, if anything, greater. They must find a way of demonstrating both that devolution can evolve – more power for Holyrood seems inevitable now – and make a convincing case for the retention of a United Kingdom.

So as a column is for the expression of opinion, here is a penultimate one: it is my belief that Scots do not want to end the Union, merely to modify it, possibly quite radically.

This will mean that Scotland will have to shoulder a greater responsibility for running her own affairs, including raising more, if not all, of the money that is spent here. That process may not be comfortable, but it will be worthwhile in the long term.

And one final opinion offered sincerely to those politicians who must make the case for a new Union: they should take their inspiration from the insight of John P Mackintosh, the late Labour MP for East Lothian and pioneer of the home-rule movement.

His simple, eloquent words, carved into the threshold of the Donald Dewar Room at Holyrood, read: "People in Scotland want a degree of government for themselves. It is not beyond the wit of man to devise institutions to meet these demands."



The full article contains 978 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 January 2008 11:08 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Nikostratos,

22/01/2008 00:08:27
And what does a radically modified 'Union' look like........two separate nations i would suggest.

Raise all the money spent in Scotland. But what about the money from the oil going to Westminster?
2

Arrow,

edinburgh 22/01/2008 00:13:07
interesting article. i also understand that there is a suggestion by some Labour members that Wendy attends the Westminster Cabinet meetings. is that to save on phone calls when she is getting her instructions or in case a stray e-mail pops up like the pantomime devil and embarasses her. has she a new spin doctor or will she inherit Browne's wee liability? intersting times chaps!!
3

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 22/01/2008 00:23:06
"The Achilles heel of the Nationalists is the fundamental belief that many, though not all, have: that support for independence equates with patriotism. It is a mindset which deep, deep down simply cannot comprehend that one can be a Scottish patriot and not support independence."

As a long term supporter of independence I agree with this statement; there are those who express their nationalism in this wayl. Equally, there are those on the Unionist side who see any support for independence as 'extremism', or 'borderline fascism', and expend a great deal of time trying to prove this to be the case with spurious arguments and long lists of statistics. I have never attempted to suggest that Unionists are racists or extremists, though I have no doubt that some are; but I find that to express support for independence frequently leaves me open to the accusation that I am a 'nationalist' and therefore comparable to Nazis and followers of Milosevic. I'm used to it but it does get pretty tiring.

I think you are probably right that most people want more devolution and not independence but I do not think that the Unionist parties are, at present, capable of offering a coherent alternative. It might just be that devolution is a process that won't stop with more devolution but will aspire instead to full independence.
4

Royster,

22/01/2008 00:24:06
#1. Oil revenue has only been around since the 1970s and for many years the oil price was very low. Even with today's record highs, in sterling terms it isn't that great. And guess what, we now have a recssion looming. Wonder which way the oil price is going to go?
5

britfree,

camelon 22/01/2008 00:34:50
peter its enough with the blah already! 80% of us know whats the question....now whens the question
6

Richardinho,

22/01/2008 00:41:35
'The Achilles heel of the Nationalists is the fundamental belief that many, though not all, have: that support for independence equates with patriotism.'

How is that a weakness? Despite decades of false predictions and wishful thinking from unionists, the SNP is still here and going strong. There must be something driving us on!
7

Richardinho,

22/01/2008 00:54:02
There may be greater support for devolution than independence, but that could hide a whole range of different views. Doubtless at least some of those will be people who would not need much to convince them of the value of independence.

The unionists do not do their case much good when they descend to insulting the Scottish nation and people-which they frequently do. The latest example to emerge was that of Des Brown's assistant calling Scotland a 'narrow presbyterian country'.

The 'Scots are simply not smart enough to run their own affairs' brigade really need to take a hard look at themselves and ask not only if their strategy is effective, but if indeed there isn't something seriously mentally wrong with them that would make them say such things in the first place.
8

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/01/2008 01:25:06
7. AM2

we see much worse, in the main stream media and on these sites:

"Scots are a nation of pathetic whiners" English Voice, Scotsman

"Scots are pathetic" Kimba, Scotsman

Or "Scots enjoy spending money, not earning it" Kelvin MacKenzie, editor, Sun

" We English are a generous people and are very generous to the Scots" M. Thatcher

"I absolutely hate the Scots" Rob7, Scotsman

"Scots make me sick. They should be expelled from England" Interested, The Time



You would appear less of a fanatical, one dimensional, dribbling, partisan, agitating, dullard if you condemned racism on all fronts rather than repeatedly trying to deploy it, foster it, promote it, nurture it and quote it in a one sided and pathetic debasement of decent debate. Particularly when we know you post half the comments you quote yourself. Grow up, engage in mature democratic discussion, or shrink into the vile, negative, scaremongering undergrowth you seem to increasingly prefer and get and a job as a senior "Scottish" Labour adviser.

9

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/01/2008 01:30:04
10. AM2

what are your thoughts on the poll (social attitudes study) to be publsihed this week that show a mighty 3% of Scots identify with being British and 73% identify with with mostly Scottish?

10

The Strategist,

22/01/2008 01:38:36
An independent Scotland wouldn't have run an economic policy that threatens recession, used oddles of public money to support a minor bank with what even the Chancellor admits was a flawed business model, allowed the wholesale selloff of their industry to satisfy the greed of the gamblers in the City, allowed house prices to get completely out of hand or both our trade deficit and Govt deficit to reach record and completely unsustainable levels.

You want traitors AM2 then look no further than Westminster. They've managed to betray the entire UK not just Scotland.


11

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/01/2008 01:52:59
12. unworthy of a reply, and yet your rabid froth dribbles forth?

You dismiss the vile, racist, anti-Scottish comments as from "pillocks" - so why then do you quote such similar anti-English silly sentiments in your post above as being significant? One less charitable might think you a biased, pompous, posturing, one-sided fanatic with an axe to grind? Or are silly comments that suit your knee jerk fanatical agenda of note, but silly comments that do not, to be dismissed? Perhaps you could provide some kind of grading scale (the AM2 Brit Nat Fanatic Scale?) by which we could all measure silly comments (those which give credence to your view of Scots as racist being weighted highly of course, those of an anti-Scottish nature being feather weighted, of course?).

The Thatcher quote is from the Times - sadly pre-Internet geek times, perhaps you can toddle off to the library and verify it, meanwhile it is undisputed.

Now, I must go and log on here as a several vociferous racists (that is what you pay me for,AM, is it not) and type a few silly comments for you to quote to spare you engaging in real debate. Happy scaremongering, negative, debasement of politics day....a man's a man for a' that....
12

,

22/01/2008 02:01:05
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13

,

22/01/2008 02:22:04
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14

,

22/01/2008 02:27:52
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15

An Beal Bacht,

22/01/2008 02:40:15
PETER MACMAHON says:

"it is my belief that Scots do not want to end the Union..."

Well that's it then. Alex an aw they SNP can go hame noo. It's ower - MacMahon says so. Aye. Well he was a special adviser to former First Minister Henry McLeish - so it must be true!
16

An Beal Bacht,

22/01/2008 02:42:53
22 - Aye he's as welcome as a fart in an elevator that yin.
17

,

22/01/2008 04:06:07
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18

,

22/01/2008 04:58:23
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19

Julian.,

edinburgh 22/01/2008 05:12:23
MacAlba # 26 etc,

Ah yes, I remember another famous Scotsman with the catchphrase "free by '93". I presume he was talking about 2093.

You forgot to mention the most important poll of all. 3rd May 2007, SNP form minority government on 33% of the vote; a high water mark for them.
20

Alan Reid,

NZ 22/01/2008 07:02:38
19 AM2,
“We want to get rid of that parasite slug off our ass, it's called England.” – Alan Reid
And I still have that opinion. But that doesn't make me anti English, nice try but you fail again.
# 27, It would have been alot more if the corrupt labour party had not ruined 140.000 ballot papers in an attempt to highjack the election, happily they failed, and Scotland is now governed by a party that puts Scotland first.
21

Alan Reid,

NZ 22/01/2008 07:19:40
“Scots do not want to end the Union, merely modify it”
Ok I’ll vote to stay in the Union, but it will have to be modified. Starting with total control over the economy, defense, fishing, immigration, and energy, how’s that for starters?
22

McNasty,

Edinburgh 22/01/2008 07:22:33
Surely the only opinion poll that matters is when the whole Scottish electorate is asked?

However, good luck in the new job Peter, just like Scotland; perhaps a wee change is good for us all?

23

morris,

edinburgh 22/01/2008 07:34:50
4

The 236 billion which has been realised so far,(Scottish sector North Sea oil revenues), MUST HAVE an effect upon the United Kingdom economy.Scotland has an economy, whose size is only 10% of thatof the UK,and therefore that same amount of money injected into an independent Scotland, is automatically magnified tenfold, without doing anything. It would make a huge difference to Scotlands standard of living, and its classroom arithmetic ONLY ,which is required to understand this.
I can understand that someone from south of the border could find it hard to adjust to being in a foreign country ,where he is not" British" anymore,but what benefits the residents of a country (irrespective of origin) is what should happen. We may disagree on whether Scotland should go down this road to wealth and self respect,but please do not suggest that there can be any reason why we should not do so, other than Westminster also wants that OIL, and we might be perceived as greedy for wanting to keep it.
When one considers that we have been lied to for forty years, over the value and effect of the oil,I do not feel in any way greedy,In fact I would point out England ,or at least the South East ,have already had more than their fair share of it!If the rest of the UK was ripped off also thats their problem to deal with.The sooner they do this,the better.
24

morris,

edinburgh 22/01/2008 07:44:49
30
Greetings New Zealand.

Absolutely Alan!
The only acceptable modification is one where we control the purse strings,and anything less is clearly just another exercise in power retained, rather than devolved.We can rest assured that the oil revenues will NOT BE surrendered by Westminster UNTIL SUCH TIME AS INTERNATIONAL LAW MAKES IT ABSOLUTELY CLEAR THAT WESTMINSTER CANNOT AVOID DOING SO ,and that of course is a referendum on self determination whose result is unambiguous, and binding in law.
The only other contender, a federalist solution would require that oil revenues stay in Scotland (or its just another con).We would be as well being independent as nearly independent!

INDEPENDENCE................ the only way forward !
25

James,

Dundee 22/01/2008 07:46:47
Anybody watching Newsnight Scotland, would have been witness to the brazen and weak performance of Jackie 'Steakbake' The Hutt.
When challenged about the 'transparency' of Labour 950ers she wibbled, wobbled - even Glenn was chucling at her 'performance'.
There should be in independent inquiry into how somebody so ill suited can have been elected. She puts the dumb in Dumbarton!

I was so glad to see sanity restored when I swiched over to STV to see John Colquohoun & co.

On topic - surely a Referendum will settle the argument - Peter if your so confident the campaign for one starts here and now surely?
26

Conway,

22/01/2008 07:49:16
Ah Peter here lies the problem with working for a political party,whether you think it or not we the public assume that you will be biased towards the party that enployed you.
Yes i too will stay with the Union ..the European one a new constitution(all but in name) has been passed more control handed to the European Parliament.The British Union has had its day its time to move forward.
27

Jimmy the Pie,

22/01/2008 07:52:29
I am Scottish born and bred. I consider myself Scottish, never British. I wish to see Scotland gain her independence and regain her dignity. I don't hate the English. I hate the English *rseholes equally with any other *rseholes I come across on my travels, including Scots *rseholes.
Won't be too long now judging by the way Alex conducts himself, and the Unionists are in such disarray with inbred Labour strangling itself and the Tories and Libdums staggering about like headless chickens.
Oh happy days!!
28

morris,

edinburgh 22/01/2008 07:52:35
27
You forget that we have opened up a ten point lead over Labour since then! You are the one who lives in the past!

The SNP vote has risen to a level, which exceeds that enjoyed by many Westminster governments, and being selective with your stats ,only serves to confirm the desperation of your argument,which is just about finished.It will end when Scotlands numpties waken up to find that they voted LABOUR again,and elected another Tory government,and the rest of us will rightly call them a bunch of (plural form of the language closest to Gaelic and spoken in Ireland)!
29

ppink,

22/01/2008 08:25:21
Excellent. By complaining of bias the forumers have finally got rid of 'professor' Macmahon. Like the journos of the Herald he couldn't stand the heat. JPress want to foster on-line journalism and so he had to be moved sideways to the business desk.
One dimensional negativism just doesn't work out.

30

subrosa,

22/01/2008 08:25:38
# 8 AM2
The potential for extremism arises in comments such as those of Winnie Ewing, quoted on the SNP's website, that non-nationalists are “traitors”, “enemies of Scotland” and only “claiming to be Scottish”.

Please give me the link for this. Thanks.
31

subrosa,

22/01/2008 08:38:55
# 18 and # 19 AM2

Sadly I've read very similar remarks on the BBC's, Daily Telegraph, Times and Guardian's websites with regard to Scots. Possibly a sign of the times and frustration on both sides.

Unlike you I don't cut and paste them for reference. Also I haven't recorded the many rude remarks I had in the many years I lived in England but I will record one now. A man I worked with for some years used to greet me every morning with "Ock aye the noo. Hoo's yer lum? Oh I forgot they don't even have indoor toilets where you come from". I remember that word for word as I must have heard it well over 1500 times. Even after I became his superior it continued until he finally moved to another job. Sad Englishman and I'm quite sure there are sad Scotsmen around too. Nothing to do with politics AM2 it's to do with human nature. Is that rather too philosophical for you?
32

Gusto,

22/01/2008 08:39:07
The Achilles heel of the Unionists is the fundamental belief that many, though not all, have: that support for unionism equates with patriotism.
33

Michael,

22/01/2008 08:50:23
Good riddance to this Labour has been. It was always ridiculous of the Scotsman to appoint someone with such a clear party bias as a political commentator and the haverings in this article are evidence of Peter's continuing inability to think outside the party box.

Like all Labour careerists and party hacks his main concern is not with what is best for the country but what is best for Labour. In his column he has frequently and, I susupect often unconsciously, conflated the two matters. Like many other dyed in the wool unionists he fails to see the difference between hesitancy on the question of independence and enthusiaism for the union. In the normal Labour way he sees one and hopes for the other. The bald truth is that most Scots are either hostile or indifferent to the Union and hesitant about independence. The polls which AM2 freuently cites provide evidence of that. Unfortunately for Labour they continue to misread the evidence imagining the opposite of what the polls actually tell them. It is this inability to read Scottish voters that will lead to Labour's continuing electoral failure.

Anyway, we should all be thankful that we don't have to read any more of his under-graduate musings on Scottish politics. I suppose it won't be long until we are reading how the global credit crunch is all down to Salmond and the evil nationalist administration in Edinburgh.
34

Boy Wonder,

22/01/2008 08:53:41
Of course we want to "modify" the Union. We want to "modify" it out of existence! Complete control over all of our own affairs, borders, oil, electricity ... yadda, yadda, yadda! The whole nine yards, as they say!

And I'm fed up reading about "polls suggest"! Polls LIE!!! All the time! A percentage of the population does NOT speak for the whole population. The only speak for that particular percentage. High time we kicked "statistics" into touch. They only ever say what the pollsters want them to say. I never believe them ... and so far, I'm not wrong ... 98.2% of the time!





35

FreeLand,

The New World 22/01/2008 09:05:24
If I can ask without attracting a hail of abuse:

As far as I can see from the postings here, Scotland’s economic survival post-independence is largely predicated on control of oil. Is this sensible when the EU is very willing to subordinate member countries’ economic wellbeing to “greenhouse gas” targets (see http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/54bbf1b0-c243-11dc-8fba-0000779fd2ac,noOfParas=2,emailFormat=plainText,storyType=ultralight,dwp_uuid=ebe33f66-57aa-11dc-8c65-0000779fd2ac,print=no.html)?

If the EU taxes or levies your putative oil exports out of economic viability, what’s the fallback option? Especially since your European friends show little deep-rooted taste for pro-business reforms (see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1061-1823265,00.html) or encouraging world-beating competitive companies (see http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120053154686996085.html)?

Remember: your population is ageing at a rate of knots (see http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/01/24/do2402.xml), so your public expenditure will increase exponentially in years to come in health, aged care and welfare – given the above, probably faster than your revenue base could EVER expand.

In short, what is an independent Scotland going to do for money in the long term?
36

,

22/01/2008 09:21:26
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22/01/2008 09:22:34
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38

Andrew Ireland,

Blackrock 22/01/2008 09:26:38
Farewell then Peter Macmahon, alas we knew him too well as the ex-Labour hack. Fine on the opinion pages but too much to hope he might be replaced in his political coverage by someone objective?

Macmahon - "Scots do not want to end the Union" - so why are you scared to let them vote on it?

AM2 #20 - when are you going to give up arguing about opinion polls? - let the people vote - try putting your energies into being in favour of something? maybe the glorious Union with all its benefits? or Union plus? or Union lite? or whatever way you think you can dress it up to make more attractive our continued subsidy of the English economy, support for illegal wars, lack of voice in Europe etc


39

Linda,

Edinburgh 22/01/2008 09:27:10
Thought Peter McMahon was going to stick to Business rather than political matters in future.

Hope he is less partisan when writing about Royal Bank prospects as opposed to HBOS.
40

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 22/01/2008 09:35:58
Bye Peter. Let's hope your replacement has a non-partisan outlook, unlike yours.
41

Calum10,

22/01/2008 09:37:09
re: "The test for the other political parties is, if anything, greater. They must find a way of demonstrating both that devolution can evolve – more power for Holyrood seems inevitable now – and make a convincing case for the retention of a United Kingdom." - Peter McMahon.

Here is another person who can't tell the diffrence between the Union of the Crowns (1603) and the Act of the Union (1707). Get rid of the Act of the Union and Great Britain is no more but the UK remains. This how the UK operated for over 100 years, independent states of Scotland and England with separate legislatures but with the same monarch.

What fools Unionists are!
42

inkster,

22/01/2008 09:38:23
Linda #48 and 46 wardog was correct and superbly concise in his post when #44 Peter MacMahon commented in his new role as Freeland, The New World which is of course a Kiwi supermarket.
43

Peeablo,

Brownistan 22/01/2008 09:51:58
#40 Subrosa

Good comment! I know exactly what you mean, and unlike AM2 I do not use such quotes either. They are just playground ignorants who know no better. Nothing to do with politics.

AM2 grow up, you'll get more respect and better debate.
44

Doh,

22/01/2008 09:53:42
I still dont beleive that any new constitutional settlement can be long lasting unless both the Scots and English have their own parliaments with broadly similar powers.

The debate should be what those powers are and what powers are reserved for the federal parliament - or federal sessions of the Westminster parliament.

45

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 22/01/2008 10:07:54
#12 Mr AM2.

Ahem, for your reference:


'We English, who are a marvellous people, are really very generous to Scotland.'

Margaret Thatcher in the Times, 12 February 1990.



Here's one Scot that wants to modify the Union out of existence.

Now remember people on last nights Newsnicht, Jackie the Hutt decreed that Paul Green's donation to the WENDY campaign, wasn't illegal...it was merely 'impermissible'.

46

gus1940,

Edinburgh 22/01/2008 10:10:29
Yet another example of a headline consisting of opinion not fact in what purports to be a serious newspaper.

You even omitted the quotation marks round it - another step down the slippery slope to journalistic oblivion.
47

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 22/01/2008 10:30:02
#7, AM2

I think the problem I have with many of the posts accusing SNP supporters of being Nazis etc., and they are not just your posts, is that it takes a minority as being the norm and attempts to smear everyone else by association.

I have no truck with gene-pool nationalists of either sort, Scottish or British; since I am convinced that identity is not based solely on genetics. I have said before to one poster on these threads - Royster - that decision-making is not genetic. I also tire of the rhetoric that comes from some nationalist quarters that blames 'the English'. However, I am not deterred from my belief in independence just because of a few wrong-headed individuals. I have known people in the Labour Party and the Conservative Party over the years who have similiarly shocked me with their racist, prejudiced views. It strikes me, however, that you desire to stick to the view that in this supporters of independence are unique.
48

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 22/01/2008 10:53:38
Leaving aside whether one supports independence or simply greater autonomy, it is evident that there needs a referendum on these matters.

Those parties denying a referendum are treating the democratic process and the electorate in general with utter contempt. Its exactly parallelled with Brown refusing any democratic voice on Europe.

These parties/individuals despise democracy and believe in government by 'elite' only. Apparently everyone else is too thick to understand the issues, and 'you never know the plebs might make the wrong decision'.

Personally I'm fed up with this arrogance from political parties, who are in general filled with low intelligent career politicians, who are incapable of intelligent decision making in any case. Give me the 'plebs'.
49

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 22/01/2008 10:55:16
Meths, I think a 'sleight' arises when your pal doesn't give you a shot on his sledge.
50

AJ Fife,

22/01/2008 10:55:27
Jings, Ayrshire Scot puts AM2 to the sword again! Will he recover and start boring the t*ts aff us again wi aw his mind numbing statistics and dodgy poll results?
51

TSynicto the core,

Bellshill.Saltireland 22/01/2008 10:56:39
Special adviser to disgraced Our Henry? I'd have kept quiet about that,Peter.
The Union was forced on Scotland by English threats, bribes,blackmail and every other dirty trick in the book, not to mention a Scottish king who, having tired of the available Scottish female talent, sold his country for access to fresh English courtesans.
52

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22/01/2008 10:56:49
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53

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 22/01/2008 10:59:23
Off to the business desk with you Peter. Will you be working for Gordon again?

BTW, no-one ever said you can't be a unionist and a patriot - that was always just a propaganda mind-trick. What is true is that for whatever reason unionists tend to behave very unpatriotically.

I tell you this. The fact that we are in a union makes me less of a patriot than a lot of tories. However my patriotism has nothing to do with my nationalism. The latter is far more important to me and many other thinking Scots.
54

Ken Mac,

Glasgow 22/01/2008 11:26:38
I don't think PMcM will be missed. Let's hope he is replaced by someone with a more balanced approach to journalism.

We are approaching a crossroads in our national life and political future. The polls serve more to confuse than enlighten. The question is will the people of Scotland be satisfied with more powers for the parliament or will it be a further stepping stone to independence? So we are still in the same position we were during the devolution debate, you either believe extended devolution will be enough or you don't. George (Lord) Robertson famously expounded that devolution would kill the SNP stone dead, well he was wrong, so who knows if more devolution will do the trick. Even 'Eck knows he'd lose a referendum on independence if it was held tomorrow. But there is a growing sense of confidence in Scotland and nationalism will grow with it. The Unionist parties are inept and seem incapable of putting forward a coherent case for the continuation of the Union beyond scaremongering and empty rhetoric of the 'union dividend' and 'we're stronger together' sort.

#42 Michael. 'The bald truth is that most Scots are either hostile or indifferent to the Union and hesitant about independence.'

That is spot on. We'll see how things change in the coming years.
55

An English Voice™,

22/01/2008 11:28:27
7. Another one for you to add to your list:

YouGov: 30 Mar 07

Independence 28% - Devolution 51%

9. Pathetic. I never said that. I have said "the SNP are a bunch of whiners"...maybe you meant that? "The SNP are a bunch of whiners"?

Actually, I think I really said "The SNP are a bunch of whingers", that is "WHINGERS". So you got that wrong too.

32. Once again, that figure of £236bn is an estimate of overall revenue (incl all income for all the oil companies). Taxes would be a far smaller figure than that!

37. The latest poll shows the SNP losing support on all counts.

46. All oil & gas production amounts to just ~2.5% of the UK economy. Private schooling is a bigger industry!

(Good to see the nats are continuing to rely on making quotes/stats up to try to win an argument!)

52. And to compare - The UK receives the highest amount of inward investment in Europe and is second in the world. The UK actually receives more inward investment than China (in 2005, UK received $160bn, China $70bn).
The UK is also the largest EU investor overseas and the second largest in the world - more than Germany, France and even Japan.
56

Ananurhing,

22/01/2008 11:31:57
For me the independence argument has always been about economics, and the fact that westminster has serially lied to the Scottish people regarding their economic viability.
For a nation that perceives itself as such, independence is a natural state of existence. A convincing argument needs to be made for any other "special arrangement". That argument has not even been offered, never mind won. I hold no truck with the "Wha's like us" brigade, yet have been accused of being an "ultra nat" and a "narrow minded bigot" on these pages by AM2 and others. Desperate tactics.

This is an unusually circumspect article by McMahon. Who will replace him as political editor? Have his masters finally decided that he does their argument more harm than good? Interesting that the day he writes of his shift from arch defender of the union, to the business brief, the markets tumble. Poisoned chalice, or kiss of death? Either way he seems to have an anti Midas touch.
The UK economy, which is geared for the money lenders, the multi national grocers, and an over inflated housing market, is sinking fast. Scotland needs to take control of its assets before it's too late.
57

John S,

22/01/2008 11:32:24
#18 and #19 - Can I join your list ? English go home.
58

Alan B,

22/01/2008 11:33:05
Most of the article comes across as wishful thinking. More devolution works 2 ways. 1) less need for independence 2)less reason not to have independence.

The unionist position always ends up with fear stories over huge deficits. Even the tories seemed embarrassed by labours position before the election. If fiscal autonomy or fiscal federalism is introduced, abolishing the Barnett formula much of the fear will be removed. No longer will we have falsehoods about our fiscal position. Over the years the unionist parties have not put forward a positive reason for Britain but relied on a fear agenda.

While unionist supporters push the idea that scotland does not want independence showing opinion polls showing scotland actually wanting more devolution. About 70%-80% want more powers for SP. Some people like myself would like more powers for the SP as a stepping stone to independence. It seems to me a good idea to have fiscal autonomy as a first step for a variety of reasons.




59

kimba,

22/01/2008 11:37:11
AYRSHIRESCOT. STOP USING SOUND BITES TO STRENGHEN YOUR CASE.
60

Colkitto,

River Clyde 22/01/2008 11:39:55
P McM follows the latest unionist line by telling us what we want. Lost count the number of times unionist politicians say "Most Scots don't want independence"
Most Scots (80%) want a referendum.
Instead of telling us what we want, let us decide for ourselves !
61

kimba,

22/01/2008 11:40:05
70.If we do,can you take the Tartan Raj with you,
62

,

22/01/2008 11:40:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
63

kimba,

22/01/2008 11:40:18
*Please enter your comment*
64

Ananurhing,

22/01/2008 11:45:03
KIMBA, STOP MURDERING THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE!
65

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH 22/01/2008 11:45:33
Here are some Anti-Scottish negative examples that helped the SNP into power:
4 AM2,Glasgow 11/04/2007 23:42:04
What effect could uncertainty following an SNP win have?

Upbeat,12/04/2007 08:16:24
There is a concern that moves towards Independence might trigger a slide in Scottish houseprices. The housing market is fickle. It only needs a general perception that Independence will cause property prices to fall, and it will happen.

This of course says little about the many thousands of expats and others who have holiday homes here in Scotland. Perhaps they would also question the sense of maintaining their homes here once the way that property taxes ( Council Tax, business tax WHY ?) are levied, leads to instability. This could undermine their willingness to continue with their investment here..

76 The Strategist,12/04/2007 16:56:40
Actually given that independence will make Scotland a much more attractive place to do business than the rest of the UK there is a real risk of an increase in demand for houses in Scotland as more people move North.

That of course could push house prices even higher.


79 AM2,Glasgow 12/04/2007 19:09:45
#76 Dick

You've got to be kidding!

Long term, of course, that may turn out to be the case. Who knows?

But if by the night of 4th May the SNP look to have gained the most seats there's a high chance that a very significant number of houses will go on the market within days. Under those circumstances, I think we could see a significant price slump very quickly indeed.


84 AM2,Glasgow 12/04/2007 19:59:38
#81 Dick

I agree a "mass exodus" is unlikely in the event of an SNP win but I would expect there to be sufficient numbers to create a perception. Sometimes perception is reality, and the housing market is irrational that way.

Remember this Scotsman story from a few days ago?
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=510822007

"ONE of Scotland's leading financial businessmen has warned of the dang
66

HEN BROON 5,

22/01/2008 11:46:02
"ONE of Scotland's leading financial businessmen has warned of the dangers of

independence, particularly for homeowners... Mr Spowart said house prices in Scotland

could fall..."

The Scottish Daily Mail ran a front-page article on this a week or so ago. Apparently

property guru Frank Knight had written to the SNP expressing concerns about the housing

market. I can't find it on the Daily Mail's website but unsurprisingly Labour picked up

on it:
http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/snphammerblowforfamilies/

The point is: whether or not these concerns are well-founded is in a sense immaterial.

The market could drop anyway, just on the perception.

THE REALITY IS THE MARKET BOOMED AS WEALTHY SCOTS RETURNED HOME, THANKS GUYS YOU ARE

DOING A GREAT JOB.

67

HEN BROON 5,

22/01/2008 11:47:09
76 The Strategist,12/04/2007 16:56:40
Actually given that independence will make Scotland a much more attractive place to do business than the rest of the UK there is a real risk of an increase in demand for houses in Scotland as more people move North.

That of course could push house prices even higher.




















WELL DONE YOU CALLED IT RIGHT :o)
68

An English Voice™,

22/01/2008 11:49:32
75. Are you on medication?

Nothing that you write ever makes sense or has any connection to any previous post.

What is the point?
69

kimba,

22/01/2008 11:50:54
75,you want to talk about Ireland,bring it on, how a guy burgled a house and was made to walk up the falls road with "I am a thief" wrote on his front and back,then shot at point blank range by the IRA,police new nothing until the murder,and some scots support this.
70

,

22/01/2008 11:52:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
71

Sgurr,

22/01/2008 11:53:21
test
72

Sgurr,

22/01/2008 11:56:21
Some real idiots post on here, so one more won't harm anyone! :)

Kimba - are you actively trying to be the most absurd contributor to the forum? Calm down man!
73

Nikostratos,

22/01/2008 11:56:36
#81 for him at 75

drugs such as haloperidole (Haldol), zuclopenthioxol (Cisordinol), perphenazin (Trilafon), alimemazin (Theralen) and chlorpromazine (Hibernal). These drugs are effective primarily against positive symptoms of schizophrenia such as hallucinations and formal thought disturbances. They thus have a good preventing effect against relapse of psychosis. At high doses, side effects are common. These include the so-called extrapyramidal symptoms such as tremor, muscle stiffness and unintended movements, as well as an experience of unrest and inability to be still. Often a low dose where no side effects are seen is sufficient for a good effect.


74

AJ Fife,

22/01/2008 11:59:20
Kimba,

You're a bit spikey this morning? What's up, did you accidently shrink your KKK outfit in the wash?
75

kimba,

22/01/2008 11:59:37
85. '
point 1, I am not a man.
point 2, the article at 82,was reported by radio 4 on the 20/1/08.
76

kimba,

22/01/2008 11:59:56
*Please enter your comment*
77

An English Voice™,

22/01/2008 12:00:03
80. Did you read the bottom of my post 80?

The UK receives more foreign investment than any other country in Europe and is only second in the world.
(In 2005, the UK was the top investment location.)
The UK receives more foreign investment than China.

Yet the nationalists confidently guarantee that this can be bettered. Based on what?

78

kimba,

22/01/2008 12:01:17
87,AJ. WHAT'S UP,TRUTH NOT TO YOUR LIKING!
79

,

22/01/2008 12:03:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
80

An English Voice™,

22/01/2008 12:03:40
90. Yeah, that should read "...bottom of my post 68".
81

kimba,

22/01/2008 12:04:44
AJ. HAVE YOU HEARD FROM Mr Palmer,aka magic hoops, or there again he has a law suit to contend with!
82

AJ Fife,

22/01/2008 12:04:53
Kimba,

Are you at last admitting to being a racist?
83

kimba,

22/01/2008 12:06:15
92. that's real funny for a scot,grow up,you pathetic creton.
84

kimba,

22/01/2008 12:09:59
AJ.RACIST,NAW, PROTECTING MY SISTER AND I FROM THIS WEIGHTIST PIG,YES.
85

kimba,

22/01/2008 12:11:41
92. JUST E-MAILED YOUR COMMENT TO MY SOLICITOR,CAN YOU AFFORD A LAW SUIT!
86

An English Voice™,

22/01/2008 12:17:03
Kimba! Calm down, for crying out loud. You'll blow a fuse!

Why are you so very, very angry?!

(Whatever it is, it could be worse. You could be one of these deluded numpties for starters.)
87

AJ Fife,

22/01/2008 12:18:51
Kimba#94,

The last I heard Magic was on a hot air balloon heading for Morroco. That was the effect you had on him!!!
88

Ananurhing,

22/01/2008 12:22:07
Nice to see EV alligning himself with Kimba.
STRENGHENS IN NUMBERS!
I'm sure she could eat one of these deluded numpties for starters.
89

kimba,

22/01/2008 12:23:35
103,WHY AM I SO ANGRY. WELL LET ME SEE, Scotland gets drugs we in England can't get, our students have to pay £3,500,FOR A EDUCATION,AND TO CAP IT ALL, our elderly folk, have to sell their homes to get cared for,and you ask why am I angry...
90

An English Voice™,

22/01/2008 12:24:07
I can't believe that little fact myself but it is true.

The UK actually receives more foreign investment than China...which I thought was the destination of choice nowadays! You always hear about companies opening factories all over China, you see the skyscrapers going up in Shanghai, you hear about China taking up half the world's steel.....and then it turns out that more companies are spending more money in the UK!




Is it just me that finds this amazing then?
91

kimba,

22/01/2008 12:24:34
104, LOL,he's seen nothing yet!
92

AJ Fife,

22/01/2008 12:26:50
Kimba,

Who or what is a Weightist Pig? Are you referring to our fine Boys in Blue - if so you could be deep doodah!
93

kimba,

22/01/2008 12:27:08
102,meths,please shut up,when you are in the uk,you can comment,and who asked for your opinion!
94

kimba,

22/01/2008 12:28:08
109,you now full fine well I refer to mr palmer.
95

AJ Fife,

22/01/2008 12:30:40
Kimba,

There seems to be an inference on this board that you're rather rotund. Are you one of those people who have to be rescued from their bedrooms by demolishing a wall?

Maybe that's why Magic didn't take you on his Airship flight - it needed to take off in the first place!
96

kimba,

22/01/2008 12:32:49
ENGLISH VOICE, WHY DON'T YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT ENLANDS LACK OF EQUALITY,IS IT RIGHT THAT SCOTLAND GETS FREE PRESCIPTIONS,AND FREE ELDERLY CARE.
97

kimba,

22/01/2008 12:34:18
112,BUT YOU DO NOT LIVE IN THE UK,END OF STORY!
98

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/01/2008 12:35:02