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Published Date: 29 July 2008
THE Labour Party in Scotland will be more independent of party bosses in Westminster in the future if the three main contenders for the leadership get their way.
Andy Kerr, the MSP for East Kilbride, who is favoured by many to replace Wendy Alexander, has joined fellow contender Cathy Jamieson in stating that the new leader needs to become a voice for Scottish Labour.

It is a move that has been interpreted
as a sign that Scottish Labour wants to distance itself from Gordon Brown and being seen as a Westminster puppet.

The third front-runner, Iain Gray, who is believed to be favoured by Gordon Brown, has added that the new leader will have "a powerful mandate" of their own.

The comments came as the party announced a timetable for the leadership and deputy leadership elections. Nominations close on Friday and the winners will be unveiled on 13 September two weeks into the next session. Ms Jamieson will continue as acting leader until then.

Mr Kerr said the top job should be more than just leader in Holyrood. "I think it's about the voice of Scottish Labour," he said. "It's about the policies we make in Scotland which will see people going back to the people's party in Scotland."

Ken Macintosh, education spokesman, is considering standing. The other contender, Cathcart MSP Charlie Gordon, yesterday published 14 policies he thinks Labour needs.





The full article contains 237 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 28 July 2008 9:50 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Senga Jean,

29/07/2008 00:05:12
I think it is common sense that the SCOTTISH Labour party is run from Scotland. To be otherwise runs the risk of the SNP making cracks about the Labour leader in Scotland being a mere puppet.
2

subrosa,

29/07/2008 00:12:36
Is there a political party called Scottish Labour? I thought it was the Labour Party in Scotland. Auch I'm getting confused ...
3

Vivas,

Edinburgh 29/07/2008 00:18:26
It's time that SLAB was allowed to stand on it's own 2 feet and make it's own dismal voter-disenfranchising career-ending mistakes. Wendy and Curran have laid the fondations, now its the turn of the Z-listers to show what they can do.
4

Jimmy Le Pie,

29/07/2008 00:20:14
I've got le answer to New Labour Sleaze's leadership problems.

Cairns resigns his Westminster seat.
Joke resigns his Holyrood seat.
Cairns stands for Joke's former seat.
Maggie Curran stands for Cairns former seat.

Joke heads off to his expense account in Malawi.

Cairns gets resoundly beaten by the SNP.
Curran gets resoundly beaten by the SNP.

Both blame world economic conditions for their defeats.

Comrade Broon refuses to resign.

"I'm planning a relaunch. I'm the best man to lead us out of the mess and shambles that the last Tory government left us with."

Comrade Broon is sectioned under the Mental Health Act.

General election called.

Bye bye New Labour Sleaze.

Bye bye Union!!
5

Jimmy Le Pie,

29/07/2008 00:22:15
The third front-runner, Iain Gray, who is believed to be favoured by Gordon Brown, has added that the new leader will have "a powerful mandate" of their own.

And what 'powerful mandate' would that be????

Being left alone to get wiped out in Scotland???

Bring it on!!!
6

Oldnat,

29/07/2008 01:06:11
Jamieson, Kerr, and Gray have all now demanded a more powerful role for the Scottish (non)leader. London Labour won't cede that under any circumstances - so look forward to the short reign of Charlie Gordon as leader of Scotland's 4th(?) party.
7

Guga II,

Rockall 29/07/2008 01:35:57
The pigs will have formed an airline before the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch) becomes the Scottish Labour Party.

8

Fanling,

Switzerland 29/07/2008 02:10:03
Brown is a dead duck. His grovelling brood in Scotland are in panic mode as they move towards a new-found empathy with their own country. To save their own political skins.

The contenders named above are just so far removed from statesmanlike quality that they should give up trying.
9

DouglasT,

29/07/2008 03:06:45
Seems like Slab's leadership contenders are thinking independence but in denial. The only way Scottish Labour can have it's own mandate is by breaking away from London Labour.
10

Finnz,

North Sea 29/07/2008 06:24:38
If the Labour party in Scotland want to show where their affiliations lie, they have to start thinking about how their actions can benefit the people of Scotland. That is, actually represent their constituents. Unfortunately, this is a totally alien concept to them and they are fast running out of time to discover their 'Road to Damascus'.
11

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 29/07/2008 06:48:01
"The other contender, Cathcart MSP Charlie Gordon, yesterday published 14 policies he thinks Labour needs."

He did? Why the heck haven't we seen this list? Where's it hiding, the cookery section?
12

Utterly Ashamed,

29/07/2008 07:07:17
#3 - they have more identities than AM2 has monikers.
13

Jimmy Le Pie,

29/07/2008 07:11:19
Just heard on the Scottish news that the candidates are going to unveil exciting policies for us all to salivate over and debate about.

The mind boggles!!


What utter drivel!!

We should start a campaign to get Glenn Campbell as New Labour Sleaze leader.
Look at the TV coverage he would get (no change there then)!
He could ignore the other contestants and ask himself questions, then not allow himself to answer them.

He could be really insulting to himself.

He would be ideal leadership material.

Never an original thought or idea.

Perfect for a party that's about to disappear!!
14

Utterly Ashamed,

29/07/2008 07:41:00
Scots 'seek distance' from Westminster - Theyll get plenty. 500 odd miles and no more westminster trough too feed out of. As the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for!
15

catgut,

pomona 29/07/2008 07:42:07
Is there a reason for the hootsman trying to get rid of UK maps this Saturday? will they not be curren t soon
16

,

29/07/2008 07:44:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
17

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 07:48:04
The gradual but inevitable shift to Labour supporting independence begins!
18

Utterly Ashamed,

29/07/2008 07:55:16
#20 - it is their only hope of any form of survival. Unless they want to be locked out of at least 10-20 years of the foundations of an Independent Scotland.

The very fact Gray is being touted as hot choice proves the fact they simply are not capable of listening. A nodding dog and lickspittle of an MP, who if , he were to have an idea of his own making would be to scared to voice it. Company yes man anyone?
19

Utterly Ashamed,

29/07/2008 07:57:15
sorry MSP and genral bottom licker and exponent of the brown tongue
20

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 08:25:21
21:

I agree. I don't think they have any other choice. Milliban and Balls are not going to unite a Labour party in opposition and have the good people of Glasgow East streaming onto the streets to vote for them.

Scottish Labour know it. 15 years in opposition awaits unless they split completely and back independence with the hope of attaining power in Scotland. If not they are finished in the UK!

No Labour voter has answered the question as to what they will do? Is 15 years of Conservative rule preferable to independence or will they back the SNP and a 'yes' in a referendum?
21

Teamdroid,

29/07/2008 09:03:10
A sign of how far this rag has fallen, that it somehow thinks that by saying just "Scots" in the headline, we immediately understand it to mean "Labour". Far from it, Hootsmon, far from it...
22

Utterly Ashamed,

29/07/2008 09:25:07
#23- MacGillicuddy - Your absolutely right! I am dateless!I ahve been up all night so it was effectively yesterday for me!


#24 - Nevsky - Excellent question ! I look forward with relish for the answer.I doubt it will come though!"
23

The Tin Man,

29/07/2008 09:41:49
#24 Nevsky

The Labour party are finished for the next 10 years - just as John Major did for the Conservatives, so Brown has done for Labour.

Shows what a good leader, like His Tonyness, Thatcher, and Salmond, can do for a party, even when those behind the leader are rather dubious.
24

The Tin Man,

29/07/2008 09:44:13
However, I doubt that Salmond would fair so well if he was PM in Westminster. He is rather well protected from anything to do with the economy and taxation.
25

Utterly Ashamed,

29/07/2008 10:03:22
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz goes tin tin
26

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 29/07/2008 10:58:11
Oh yes, where's that Calman Commission now? Maybe they have some advice to offer - I would say to Wendy who got it set up but of course she's away supervising her husband looking after the weans.

So now the rump of Labour in Scotland, having rejected independence from being considered by the Commission (or was it review - I get so confused) now realise of course that the voters have an entirely different idea and in case have rumbled Labour as the useless trough guzzlers they are. The "people's party" was always about Labour first and last, never about the voting fodder.

Whether Brown is in charge or not they will all be whipped into line by the London party. Tough luck as they're all heading for oblivion.


27

Calum10,

29/07/2008 11:06:39
Just more spin by Labour. There is no such thing as a Scottish Labour party. No such thing as a Scottish Labour party leader. The Labour leader at Holyrood will, as before, be taking their orders direct from London.
28

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 11:10:15
How can the Labour party seek to be more 'independent' of Westminster and yet maintain any cohesion within a UK wide party.

Effectively there will two Labour parties working to two different agendas with the one in Scotland being (i would imagine) significantly more left wing than the English version. Yet at a general election they would seek to come together and to unite under one central strategy and expect people in middle England to vote for them?

Farcical!
29

Scottish 'N British,

29/07/2008 11:16:59
There's no one behind Salmond, in cabinet or in the posh seats behind him.
30

Conway,

29/07/2008 11:17:49
Labour in Scotland have had 40+ years to come up with the goods. They with the other unionist parties have lied to us Scots to keep us down ,Labour has had its chance and they have blew it !
31

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 11:19:25
So Scottish and British:

15 years of conservative rule or independence, which is it to be?
32

Rob - Honest Toun,

29/07/2008 11:36:33
Accordin tae the three front runners, the cry seems tae be "Scottish Independence" for a Scottish Labour Party.
33

Scottish 'N British,

29/07/2008 11:40:03
36

A Tory government is a formality. Like most Scots not in 'the bubble', a separate Scottish state isn't on my radar.

Interesting to see Separatists buoyed up by this news, though. Then again, they did play a massive part in giving us the last Tory leader, didn't they. So it's old hat.

34

European Scot,

29/07/2008 11:44:02
New Labour have just suffered an enormous defeat, and yet still come out with the usual 'must learn from their mistakes' routine. The trouble is they haven't learned a thing, still promoting the 'Union', the 'UK',' Britain', looking to their leader in London for guidance etc.
A genuinely Scottish Labour Party, supporting the Independence of Scotland, and truly representing Scottish Labour voters, would have an immediate beneficlal effect on that Party's fortunes north of the border.
The same could be said of the Liberals, who totally threw their future prospects down the drain, sticking with the Unionist approach after the Scottish Elections.
The Tories may yet be the surprise movers, who knows what the talks between Salmond and Cameron might lead to.
Annabel dropping this dated 'Unionist' tag, admittedly a massive step for her to take, and adopting a wholly Scottish approach to her party's politics in future, would garner her Party many votes.
The encouragement for her to do so, could come from 'Dave' in London, keen to wrap up a long term Tory future in England, by 'losing' the Labour party vote north of the border. That could produce the ' unlikely' scenario of an Independence supporting Tory party in Holyrood.
Whatever, carrying on as usual being 'Unionist' parties in Scotland, is not learning lessons, and for sure, it's not going to gain them any voters.
35

megz,

glasgow 29/07/2008 11:50:52
'The third front-runner, Iain Gray, who is believed to be favoured by Gordon Brown'

Oh well there's grays chances out the window, i don't think any of them would want the title of browns preferred choice.

Sounds a bit hypocritical that Slab want a bit more independence for themselves but not their country.
36

Scottish 'N British,

29/07/2008 11:54:33
Bubble speak

That 99% of posters here are Separatist doesn't mean the electorate is.

If you're party (or Separatism) was as popular as yoo suggest AND given the massive push Salmond gave to the by-election, I'd have thought this would have been shown by the vote.

Yet you gathered only around 1 in 5 of the vote available.

37

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 11:55:14
40:

Just shows what most think. Unionists are prepared to accept the union at ANY cost to Scotland.

Fortunately your radar, focussed as it is on the excitement of the forthcoming Conservative government, does not reflect the views of most Scots.

Great to see Labour supporters now endorsing a Conservative Government in Wesminster. Who would have though that 5 years ago?
38

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 11:58:56
43:

And the Conservative vote was what again in Glasgow? Hardly a ringing endorsement for the next UK government you will support wholeheartedly!
39

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 29/07/2008 12:07:30
Cathy Jamieson? Surely not!
40

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 29/07/2008 12:07:34
Cathy Jamieson? Surely not!
41

Scottish 'N British,

29/07/2008 12:08:08
Bubble speak, again. Say something often enough and to the same people and it soon becomes fact.

Notice, too, your keenness to disassociate yourself from the looming Tory government. It won't work.

Fact is, away from here there's no real appetite in Scotland for Separation from the rest of the UK any more than the Great One speaks for Scotland.

Unless 30% is your idea of mass interest, unless you have a recent poll in mind that suggests otherwise?

There is, however, great interest in more powers. But that isn't a separate Scottish state, is it?

Interestingly, the 'Unionist' vote in Glasgow East was greater than Mason's.

Ringing endorsement for Separation - not.
Change from Scottish Labour - yes.




42

Brian Hill,

29/07/2008 12:08:27
They are beginning to get the words right, question is can they follow up with the actions.

As for them being in opposition for 15 years or more it's worse than that. In 1979 I wrote Labour would never be in Government again this century. I was right. In 1997 a party calling itself NEW Labour became the government. It wasn't the Labour Party.

But this time New Labour will not be able to re-invent itself, instead it will befall the same fate as befell the Liberals early last century. We are witnessing a tilt in progress. UK Labour are slipping behind the 'tipping' point of no return.

Scottish Labour can survive as a left wing party in an Independent Scotland but if it delays the Tories or Lib Dems will fill the growing vacuum of an opposition in Holyrood.
43

Alan B,

29/07/2008 12:14:16
#Scottish 'N British

Your posts are little desperate and undermine any argument you may have.

Opinion polls over the last decade according the Curtis the election expert said on tv not long ago that support for independence and the union was roughly even.

The question is do enough scots still harbour a dislike of the tories. Will a tory victory at the next election persuade a (smallish) percentage to go for independence giving indendence a clear majority.

Even for those that do not necessarily find themselves anti tory. What is the advantage is it to scotland to have a party running the scotland when they have no democractic mandate here.

Democracy is after all the will of the people.

In relation to your comments regarding support for the snp. I think it takes time to realign the political nature of scotland after devolution. Pre devolution their was little point in voting snp as they were never going to be the party of government. Now with the sp that has changed.

PR for local government will also transform things as it means that all parties are represented and not just labour.

2 factors are evident. If the sp had another election the snp would decimate labour winning a bigger majority. Interestingly the excuse that people were just punishing the party of government ie labour would no longer be applicable. Also the people overwhelming want significantly more powers for the sp.

Another thing that is interesting is all the small parties support indendence. SSP, solidarity and the greens. It could be conceivable that the greens could replace the lib dems in the future. The whole situation is quite fluid.
44

megz,

glasgow 29/07/2008 12:14:56
There is roughly 3% between those who voted for parties that want independence and those that are unionist id say it isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the uk.
45

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 12:18:06
50. "Opinion polls over the last decade according the Curtis the election expert said on tv not long ago that support for independence and the union was roughly even."

What?! LOL!
46

Alan B,

29/07/2008 12:23:13
#Scottish 'N British

"Fact is, away from here there's no real appetite in Scotland for Separation "

Over the last 10yrs it has been quite even based on opinion polls their was a dip for while after the snp got elected but that position has recovered now. Lets face it we really do not know how people would vote. A referendum could be based on turnout. The recent by election had a turnout of about 40% and was said to be good.

"There is, however, great interest in more powers. But that isn't a separate Scottish state, is it? "

That is the interesting point. Is that a stepping stone? What powers?

For me while i would want an independent scotland for a variety of reasons i would like to take more powers for the sp first. ie fiscal autonomy.

Change (like more powers for the sp) begets more change.

For instance if the sp had fiscal autonomy then you would no longer have arguments about subsidies and barnett etc.

Devolution of broadcasting pulled by blair at the last minute from the devolution arrangements under pressure from reid and darling was due to the feeling that a scottish news etc would make westminster feel remote. No longer would we have "national" news that gives english issues as uk news and ignores scottish equivilents eg education and health.

Change like this in the view of many in labour would encourage independence support.
47

Number 6,

Germany 29/07/2008 12:24:55
The First Minister should barr this gang from calling themselves the "Scottish Labour Party". There is no such party, they are the Labour party (Scottish enclave). Talk about ideas above their station.
If they want to form a Scottish Laboutr party, then they should join forces with the SNP and advocate independance. THEN they can form a "Scottish Labour Party". Until then they remain nothing but puppets to Westminster.

The amount of times the Scottish enclave hid behind the "Sewel convention" proves this point. With Labour unable to take decisions on devolved matters, handing it back to London for their instruction. How humiliating. Will the scottish enclave, should they ever regain a majority in the Scottish Parliment, promise to ditch the Sewel convention, and keep decisions about Scotland in Scotland and made by Scots ? NO OF COURSE NOT.
Good to see they are "distancing" themselves more and more from Westminster. So much for the "union".

Hilarious stuff.
48

brownlie,

29/07/2008 12:28:25
52 British Pride

Good to know you've got a sense of humour and can still laugh out loud despite last week's devastating SNP victory.
49

Alan B,

29/07/2008 12:31:37
#Highland Mighty

That is what John Curtis the Strathclyde professor said on tv. (He does not come across in any way as someone that supports independence.)

Current opinion polls are quite close. Much depends on the question. Some are even contradictory with 2 similar questions giving totally different answers in the same polls.

But if you consider opinion polls before last yrs election were showing majority support for indpendence of those that expressed an opinion. (the question was the size of the don't knows which would swing it either way).

It was after the snp got elected that support for independence really dipped for most of the year. The other way independence dips is when the more power option is added.

Personally i do not know how accurate polls are.

From a personal experience i actually was phoned in the house and answered a poll recently (only time ever). It was about social attitudes not scotland and the consitution. The questions were so badly constructed, ambigous and so contradictory that it was difficult to answer any of them.

50

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 12:32:17
52 [contd]. Just looked up the very latest poll (36% in favour of independence, 48% against - again NOT "roughly even") and noticed the following preferences (opposition pollings in brackets):

Scotland to keep the pound: 73% (21% join Euro, 3% for seperate currency)
Scotland to maintain current funding structure (share oil and receive Westminster funding): 43% (41%)
Scotland to stay within the UK armed forces: 60% (23%)
Scotland to maintain UK immigration laws: 55% (36%)
Maintain the current BBC News structure: 60% (37%)
Scottish atheletes to remain in a UK team: 51% (44%)
Scotland to continue to be represented by UK Embassies: 60% (32%)
Scotland to be represented by the UK in the UN: 55% (38%)
Scotland to be represented by the UK in NATO: 57% (28%)

Yet the SNP, self-proclaimed protector of democracy, seek to do precisely the opposite of ALL the above.
51

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 12:34:11
56. "It was after the snp got elected that support for independence really dipped for most of the year. The other way independence dips is when the more power option is added."

That indeed says it all.
52

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 12:34:21
48:

A vote for Labour is not a vote for the Union i am afraid. Ask the SNP canvassers who were surprised at the number of hard-line Labour voters who said they would vote YES in an independence referendum.

Nice try but this was not a vote for independence or the union. It was a vote against Labour in it's heartland and an endorsement of the SNP..sickening for you i know but the truth.

Just witness now all the Labour candidates crawing about how Scottish they are and seeking to distance themselves from Westminster...sickening for you again i know.

Of course the more they play the 'nationalist' card the more it plays into the SNP hands. Just sit back and relax, from a Nationalist point of view its great watching the Labour party fragment and disintegrate and no more than they deserve!
53

Alan B,

29/07/2008 12:40:10
#Highland Mighty

I am stating what John Curtis said. I do not follow polls myself other than when something is published in the scotsman.

As i said the results can depend on the question asked. Lets face it people can use wording to try to improve the response.

The was one poll a month or 2 ago that put indendence in the lead. Last yrs before the election (a few months before) when the press took a little more interest i remember polls constitently showing a majority of those that expressed an opinion supporting independence. The scotsman in their way having headlines that support for independence was down, when it actually showed independence as the favoured option, but down a percent or 2 from the previous poll.

Currently the situation is confused by the more power option and will be interesting to see what happens when that option is packaged.

54

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 12:40:14
59. Mmm, would these be the same SNP canvassers that reported 80% support for independence on this site....when even the spinmasters in SNP Central could only muster a 46% show of support?
55

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 12:43:42
60. "Last yrs before the election (a few months before) when the press took a little more interest, i remember polls constitently showing a majority of those that expressed an opinion supporting independence."

No, they didn't.

YouGov Apr 07…For: 25% - Against: 53%
YouGov Mar 07..For: 28% - Against: 51%
YouGov Nov 06..For: 31% - Against: 50%

YouGov Aug 07...Ind: 23% - More Dev: 39% - Status Quo: 20% - Scrap Dev: 9%
YouGov Apr 07…Ind: 26% - More Dev: 37% - Status Quo: 17% - Scrap Dev: 12%
SSAS 2007……..Ind: 23% - More Dev: 55% - Status Quo: 8% - Scrap Dev: 10%
56

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 12:48:15
61:

Well let's face it opinion polls are opinion polls. Witness for instance the Glasgow East by election. Now that was a surprise wasn't it?

The support for independence is much softer than ANY of the SNP canvassers thought in that area and they spoke to more people than any opinion poll.
57

Scottish 'N British,

29/07/2008 12:49:20
59

So you're quoting SNP canvassers?

LOL!!

Not exactly impartial, now is it?

Is this what stands for Sepratism, nooadays? Say it often enough and they'll believe it has been superceded by "tell 'em anything, they're zipped up the back".

LOL!!

Anyway, the recent Daily Telegraph poll, using the SNP's own question, states the situation quite clearly.

Interestingly it also showed amongst other things, the likelihood of SNP voters to change sides when asked about the Monarchy, defence, Scottish Six, the pound, oil sharing, etc.

Joe Jordan, against Czechoslovakia, ?November 73 - back of the net.
58

Alan B,

29/07/2008 12:51:04
#Highland Mighty

I remember the scotsman publishing polls that put independence in the lead last year.

I do not follow polls so do not have any figures but a quick google came up with.

ICM

February 2007 Yes 44% No 42%
January 2007 Yes 51% No 36%

Question asked -

"In a Referendum on independence for Scotland, how would you vote?"

I agree that Scotland should become an independent country.
I do not agree that Scotland should become an independent country.
Don't Know.




59

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 12:53:09
Highland Mighty:

Any opinion polls regarding support in Scotland for a Conservative government as opposed to independence?

That would be a more interesting poll.

60

Alan B,

29/07/2008 12:54:16
some others:

ICM:

"Should Scotland become an independent country?"

November 2006 Yes 52% No 35% DK 13%

TNS System 3:

"Do you support or oppose Scotland becoming a country independent from the rest of the United Kingdom?"

April 2005 Yes 46% No 39% DK 15%


YouGov:

"Do you support or oppose Scotland becoming a country independent from the rest of the United Kingdom?"

March 2006 Yes 46% No 39% DK 15%

YouGov:

"If there were a Referendum tomorrow on whether Scotland should become an independent country, separate from the rest of the United Kingdom, how would you be inclined to vote - in favour of Scotland being an independent country or against Scotland becoming an independent country?"

September 2006 Yes 44% No 42% DK 15%


(DK -dont know)
61

Scottish 'N British,

29/07/2008 12:54:30
63

Whoa there - that's the Unionist angle!!!

You've seen the light.

I agree, there is 'soft' support for Separation - flaccid would be a much better word. I like flaccid.
62

Scottish 'N British,

29/07/2008 12:57:19

66

Tory win and Scots will back separation. Desperate stuff.

Whatever happened to the arguments in favour?

63

Scottish 'N British,

29/07/2008 12:59:03
Dump the polls

D'ye waant the Tories, or dis yis no?

LOL
64

CLX,

WayUpNorth 29/07/2008 12:59:31
Why do the Liebour supporters on this site continually rebuke the basic facts reported?
It can’t be the Nats making up lies when, better get this right, the Liebour party in Scotland seek (as reported) to distance themselves from Westminster.
They KNOW what’s going to happen eventually if they don’t make a move now…

It is like the death throws of a lumbering beast and the Liebour party in Scotland being the little beasties who live on it looking for another host to suck dry.
65

morris,

edinburgh 29/07/2008 13:01:42
Why do SLAB want a "more powerful role" for the Scottish leader? Surely this is an admission that they cow tow to Westmonsters every wish!
If they genuinely see Westminster policies as being bad for Scotland then JOIN THE SNP which is the party who have pointed this out for as long as I have been alive!

These cretins are loyal to Westminster and the United Kingdom,and there will be no greater say on anything,just the usual Labour party spin in the hope that their supporters swallow this guff same as they swallowed all the previous guff.
The answer is

NO MORE GUFF WE'VE HAD ENOUGH.

ITS TIME
66

CLX,

29/07/2008 13:10:29

"And I say to those who oppose the restoration of Scottish independence that just as I respect absolutely their right to hold that view, so in return I feel able to require of them a clear alternative which can be put on a ballot paper and held up to public scrutiny."

Quite a straight forward arguement but still the other parties are pushed for an answer....
67

Scottish 'N British,

29/07/2008 13:10:31
72

.... to come good with your party's manifesto promises.
68

Braes of Glenmiller,

Just watching 29/07/2008 13:10:55
It would be a step in the right direction if Labour in Scotland became a separate beast but it wouldn't solve the issue with the West Coast mafia and their internecine squabblling and snouts in the trough mentality.

We should remember that we have never had a King or Queen of Scotland, the land is owned by the people, whoever the landowners are, and that's a different argument entirely. We have had King or Queen of Scots which is something rather different.

So Scots Labour Party WOULD be a decent name for an independent second force in Scottish politics.

It's interesting to see that despite his bloodied nose in Dumfermline West and Glasgow East, Gordie Brown has still not learned his control freakery lesson, and still through various ciphers manages to "promote" a favoured candidate. Gray must be quaking in his shoes at such endorsement. All he needs now is to see 30 pieces of silver changing hands in London and await the kiss that seals his fate.

Labour might not rise again after 3 days, more like 10 years.

Salmond will relish the debate with whoever Labour choose.

And what of then Wibbly Libblys? Don't they have to elect a new leader? All change in the debating chamber as a round of musical chairs means new fodder being thrust into the front line to battle Big Eck and his simple, unflappable logic.

As for a Tory government, we're going to have one whether we vote for it or not so there's no point in speculating about politics elsewhere in the UK. When the time comes, the SNP will rise to whatever challenges are put their way because, and here's where the others still don't get it, they don't care about Surrey, London, Leicestershire. They care about Scotland.
69

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 13:13:39
70:

Seem to recall last week Labour was rejected in it's own heartlands...hurts i know but very very funny for the rest of us you understand ;-)

Also very funny to watch them craw now about how Scottish they are...funny how that happens after a humiliation in Glasgow.

They know full well what way the wind is blowing and are now desperate to salvage their jobs and desperate to appear 'Scottish' to the electorate.

Truly pathetic!
70

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 29/07/2008 13:17:49
So I suppose the Scottish Labour Party in the Newly Independant Scotland will stand for the re establishment of the Act of Union. It certainly would be interesting to see them campaign under the banner of Scottish Branch Office of the British National Party (BNP).

To try to somehow claim to be automonous is nothing short of being more of the ridiculous after watching the poisoned Curran stating how she would vote the London Westminster Government way on every issue that the reporters brought forward.

And the London Controlled Scottish Labour Party are going to suddenly grow a spine. Wendy tried that and look what happened to her and her statement of intent to support a referendum. Des Browne and David Cairns had her head chopped off, with a great deal of backstabbing from Margaret Curran and the other jobbies.
71

morris,

Edinburgh 29/07/2008 13:23:18
Highland Mighty©,29/07/2008 12:43:42

In that case you have nothing to worry about!
Lets get this clear.
Scotland goes or stays depending upon how the majority declare their wishes as is the case in any democracy.
The inclusion of a third choice (more devolution) will automatically affect the result by its existence never mind anything else.
The problem of course is more devolution is a blank cheque,and nobody knows what it entails.These people are answering a question as best they can,but since its impossible to qualify the question you cannot read much sense into the answer!
More devolution could mean control over Loch Ness Monsters and removal of the right to oppose nuclear plans for Scotland.
What they mean is CHANGED devolution.It does not neccesarily mean more,it merely infers that it does.

The answer was always, and will always be INDEPENDENCE (or the Status Quo).
The argument of the retention or otherwise of the EU is irrelevant since it applies equally to the United Kingdom and an independent Scotland.
It has absolutely nothing to do with it other than confirm that Labour nonsense about border posts and customs barriers and the like which is bull.
Norway and Sweden operate an open border policy and they are not even in the EU!
We can do the same .We are an island for God sake. That cannot change !
Everybody must be ruled from London can not only change but should change unless the people declare they are for the moment content with the current or new version of the Status Quo. The possibility of change must be monitored always since a democracy cannot ever have such a thing as the settled will of the people.
72

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

29/07/2008 13:25:58
Looking at the list of candidates the only one who stands out for me is Andy Kerr.

Charlie Gordon is a busted flush because of his heavy involvement in Wendygate. Cathy Jamieson is so promoted beyond her abilites is beggars belief. Iain Gray was a competent minister but has the poisoned chalice of being Brown's preferred candidate. The only one of the candidates who I believe has the guts to stand up to Brown and London Labour is Kerr.

That's not based on idle speculation but my own personal dealings with him. I have also found him to be a competent individual who was not frightened of telling a few home truths. I don't believe he would be as crass as Alexander and try to change the direction of Scottish Labour without getting the support of the Labour Party in Scotland. Moreover, he has never been seen as someone who has particularly strong ties to the London Labour establishment being much closer to the proto-nationalist wing of the Labour Party in the now defunct Scottish Labour Action.

73

Scottish 'N British,

29/07/2008 13:26:28
76

Google this:-

Only one in three Scots is in favour of independence

BTW, at 02:07am on STV's coverage of the by-election Swinney acknowledged it was a protest vote against Scottish Labour. He then sought to claim it also endorsed the SNP Executive in Edinburgh.
74

Number 6,

Germany 29/07/2008 13:30:58
No wonder Maggie Brown backs gray. This, after all is the labour MP who lost a Scottish seat to the Tories !!.

Not to worry mate, here's another safe seat, just try not to lose this one. His real handicap of course, is that his seat is on the East coast. The leader will HAVE to come from the West Coast Mafia. Is this
"Big Margrit's" chance to make a spectacular comeback , after her catastrophic defeat in Glasgow East.

Does labour's scottish enclave really have no one better than the parcel of rouges they have come up with?. Alex Salmond will need surgery to wipe the smile off his face once this lot start campaigning.
75

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 13:31:09
80:

WOW what great news for the Labour vote..well done you!
76

morris,

edinburgh 29/07/2008 13:34:32
80

Again I say you have nothing to worry about then!
Do you agree that the majority view should prevail?
You must answer yes of course or your credibility disappears up your own exhaust pipe!
We shall find out for sure in a referendum.
This crud about you should accept these opinion polls because they agree with moi, but not others which dont, is an insult to ones intelect.
I dont say we should do so. Do you?
77

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 13:42:09
Scotn n Brit..

Google this..before the election the Labour Party were attacking John Mason for being a 'hard line' nationalist and preaching on the dangers of nationalism while today (less than a week later) the Labour Party wants to distance itself from Westminster and they have all of a suddenly become all Scottish!


78

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 29/07/2008 13:45:36
#80. You have continually bandied the expression "separatism" in its various forms around. Maybe you can enlighten us on what you mean. I fail to see how political independence would "separate" the Scots from anything. Indeed, it would open up avenues in many areas where separatism presently exists. Could we please have an explanation?
79

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

29/07/2008 13:52:02
#78 The truth is Morris that the Nats want it done to a simple status quo versus independence vote. Any ballot that includes a devolution max option will almost certainly scupper their chances of winning a vote for independence.

It is nothing to do with disingeneous arguments over the defintion of more devolution and everything to do with polarising the debate for their own political benefit.

80

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 13:53:30
85:

Embassies would be a good start. Instead of the extended London Civil Service that currently exists!

81

CLX,

29/07/2008 13:54:03
If you really want a laugh, have a look at this....

Funnier than a funny thing on a funny day.....

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/47095/0025772.pdf
82

lulach mac gille coemgain,

29/07/2008 14:04:22
‘THE Labour Party in Scotland will be more independent of party bosses in Westminster in the future’ because Westminster will be Nothing to do with Governing Scotland FULL STOP!
83

morris,

edinburgh 29/07/2008 14:06:01
85
The answer is NO he cannot!


Many Scots*(*people resident in Scotland please note)assume that repeating what Labour says (parrot fashion) will cover up for their lack of ability to comprehend what was actually said or meant.
They also presume that their failure to understand it completely, is because it's of a higher level of thinking than they can personally manage.
They are correct in a way.
The reason they cannot understand it and justify it is because its a load of mumbo jumbo designed for consumption and regurgitation by anyone foolish enough to do so.
In that sense it is a better quality of mumbo jumbo than they could personally ever dream up,but thats it!
Economically the independence argument is so much ahead of the retention of Union, that all Unionists must be in it for personal gain! Either that or they are just ill informed .
At least I can understand the reluctance of "English born" Scots residents,even if I have to say that it applies to all "Scots"* as defined earlier irrespective of origin,or the alternative is it does not apply at all.
At least they have genuine fears possibly, and failure to assure them is our fault partly, and partly scaremongering by SLAB and the other Liar parties.

There is only one truth and variations on it are called untruths.

Scotland's economy under independence is sound and even Unionists acknowledge this when forced to,( but still say the opposite when allowed to or when they think they address idiots who willstill believe it).
84

morris,

Edinburgh 29/07/2008 14:17:07
86

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

I agree more choices must reduce the popularity of all other contenders.
Thats just common sense.

Ask X questions and you get X answers!
However a vote for "more devolution" when we have no idea what that contains is a complete lack of sense!
Its a blank cheque!We all know what they do!
Would you buy a car because you liked the colour ,but it maybe does and maybe does not have an engine in it?
The answer is surely NO!
Either that or.............................
thats the "logic "of your argument!

If you are talking about a federation at least that begins to have definition and would at least be a legitimate question, even if it has already been rejected in favour of Devolution.
Thats not what NEW SLAVER are on about!
I accept that the majority view prevails.
I ask only that Unionists do likewise.
85

lulach mac gille coemgain,

29/07/2008 14:19:09
One offers the people living and working in Scotland to choose if they want self governance . . .
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2007/08/13103747/0

One asks what we think of being allowed partial control of governing ourselves then possibly a wee bit more but not control of the purse . . .
http://www.commissiononscottishdevolution.org.uk/


86

Scottish 'N British,

29/07/2008 14:25:24
Read somewhere that a 3-way question (yes/no/more powers) sees support for a separat Scottish state crumble to a mindnumbing 19%.

This option, coincidentally, is my preference.
87

morris,

edinburgh 29/07/2008 14:27:24
93 lulach mac gille coemgain,


Ive not read these (as yet) but there's little doubt that what you say in your posting is true.
I shall endeavour to read it when I have time however !
88

morris,

edinburgh 29/07/2008 14:32:07
94 Scottish 'N British,29/07/2008 14:25:24

Then we would both agree that the majority have spoken and thats it for the foreseable future,(but not in perpetuity).
The majorty view is subject to change and must still be upheld,not just when it suits our purpose.
I must make a distinction though between Devolution Max (whatever the blazes that means) and something clearly defined.
If you wantto claim a definitive answer ASK A DEFINITIVE QUESTION is surely a pre requisite!
89

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 14:38:19
94:

Probably the same figure who will vote for the Conservative party in Scotland and have them in Government for the next 12 years.

Democracy at 19% is something you support or don't i am a little confused?

Although not confused that you will be supporting with full conviction the Conservative and Unionist government in Westminster of course!
90

Scottish 'N British,

29/07/2008 14:45:38
97

"Although not confused that you will be supporting with full conviction the Conservative and Unionist government in Westminster of course!"


Mmmm, I thought Salmond said he'd be prepared to look at supporting the Tories on "an issue by issue basis".

It's not full conviction as you state, granted, but....
91

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 15:04:41
Salmond unlike you said so long as it was 'to the benefit of the Scottish people' which is what you would expect from a First Minister.

You however will accept the Conservatives even to the detriment of your country and still not consider a 'yes' vote in any referendum.


So it is you who are fully commited to a Conservative Government and not Salmond...easy enough to understand for you?
92

Alan B,

29/07/2008 15:11:09
#Scottish 'N British

If it was to scotland economic advantage to be independent would you still want to remain with the union?

There seems to be 4 choice drivers:

1)union no matter whether in it is in scotlands economic and politcal interest or not.
2)union only becuase you think it is in scotlands economic and politcal interest or not.
3)independence no matter whether it is in scotlands economic and politcal interest or not.
4)independence only becuase you think it is in scotlands economic and politcal interest or not.

Too many unionist posters seem to want the union no matter whether it is in scotlands interest or not.

To me if we are to have a union it should be because it is in scotlands interest and not a union at any price. Unfortunately that seems to be what we have.

93

morris,

Edinburgh 29/07/2008 15:14:59
98 Scottish & British.

It does indeed stand to reason that any SNP group would vote issue by issue on whether it benefits the Scottish nation or not,since that is their job,represent the people who elected them.
This could certainly involve support of the government on occasion.
To do otherwise would be counter productive.

Not only would we not do that which is counterproductive (in our view of course),we would never admit it ,since that would be stupid and really counterproductive when we have no need to do so.
The problem is Labour will repeat their previous war cries of They voted with the Tories ! That makes them Tartan Tories!

Not true.They voted with their conscience and that makes them MPs worth having.Those who adopt a particular line because New Slaver said so,vote with their empty heids!They are not worthy of government.
94

Scottish 'N British,

29/07/2008 16:09:07
101

Speak to 99, get your story atraightened out, then get back to me.

95

Stuntman Mike,

29/07/2008 16:20:58
#100 Alan B: only a nationalist separates out Scotland's interests from the rest of the country. We're all in this together, whether as part of the UK or the EU: get real man!
96

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 16:36:03
100. The SNP are clearly option 3. This cannot seriously be denied.

To leave a union that provides secure (and always increasing) funding of our public services and instead rely on a highly volatile, unpredictable and depleted resource for our economic future is irrefutable evidence of 'independence at all costs'.
97

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 16:43:14
104:

Can you name me a country in Europe where independence has not suceeded? Where the people are poorer, whose economies are 'highly volatile, unpredictable and depleted' (apart from these applying to the current situation in the UK that is).

Just one would do!
98

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 16:45:10
104:

Still trading the old lie that 'we cannae dae it'...how come everyone else manages?
99

Scottish 'N British,

29/07/2008 16:51:23
106

Don't want it.
100

,

29/07/2008 16:58:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
101

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 17:00:01
107. The nats just can't grasp that concept, can they!

It's not "We can't", it's "We don't want to"! Why can't they comprehend this? Very strange.

As for the question in 104, why restrict it to Europe? How about any former UK territory that is now poorer than the UK? Then add in the same for any former French territory. Then Spanish.

Kosovo is poorer than Serbia, by the way. Bosnia is poorer than it was within Yugoslavia. Cyprus required billions in EU aid to reach its current economic state. As did Ireland.

And notice how many of these newly independent nations are now flocking to join a new union.

(Ever get the feeling you didn't think your question through?)
102

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 17:00:31
You will. It's sometimes difficult to admit everything you believe in is wrong i know. But at least you are getting plenty practice with the Labour Party and as they seem to be shifting ground it should make it slightly easier for you.
103

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 17:02:39
110. A nat says: "It's sometimes difficult to admit everything you believe in is wrong i know."

Ah, the irony!
104

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 17:07:37
And I have only just realised this one is another 'Ex-pat Nat'.

Teens and ex-pats. You can always rely on the ill-informed to jump on nationalist bandwagons.
105

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 17:16:00
113. "Unionists will find that support for the union in opnion polls barely goes beyond the 40% mark."

Really?.....

YouGov Apr 08…For: 25% - Against 59%
YouGov Jan 08…For: 27% - Against: 57%
YouGov Apr 07…For: 25% - Against: 53%
YouGov Mar 07..For: 28% - Against: 51%
YouGov Nov 06..For: 31% - Against: 50%
ICM Oct 06……..For: 39% - Against: 51%

STV May 08……..Ind 25% - More Dev: 50% - Status Quo: 25% - Scrap Dev: n/a
YouGov Apr 08…Ind: 19% - More Dev: 38% - Status Quo: 34% - Scrap Dev: n/a
MRUK Mar 08.....Ind: 23% - More Dev: 45% - Status Quo: 22% - Scrap Dev: 6%
YouGov Aug 07...Ind: 23% - More Dev: 39% - Status Quo: 20% - Scrap Dev: 9%
YouGov Apr 07…Ind: 26% - More Dev: 37% - Status Quo: 17% - Scrap Dev: 12%
SSAS 2007……..Ind: 23% - More Dev: 55% - Status Quo: 8% - Scrap Dev: 10%


115. Are you serious? What do you know about Bosnia then?
106

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 17:17:41
117. Mmm...."when being humiliated, get abusive"?

Plot clearly lost.
107

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 17:18:46
Come on then. How old are you and where do you live, 'Hawkeye'?
108

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 17:26:19
Hang on, are you emigrating to Canada??

If so, you fit snugly into the 'ex-pat' category, don't you!
109

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 17:33:42
122. Mainly because they are vastly outnumbered by the polls where pro-UK support is far higher than pro-independence.

Also, it was to totally discredit your ridiculous claim that "Unionists will find that support for the union in opnion polls barely goes beyond the 40% mark."

Now that's "bogus rubbish"!
110

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 17:37:57
125. If the UK was a marriage of equals, it wouldn't be a democracy, would it! How would you feel if Edinburgh had the same votes as the rest of Scotland combined? Grow up.

(And the word is 'itself'.)
111

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 17:38:50
126. You can say that as many times as you like. We both know its not true and no-one else cares....so what's the point?
112

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 17:42:02
Oh, so saying 'no to independence' is not pro-union?

What a novel piece of spin. Not desperate at all.
113

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 17:42:52
131. It's called a 'parliamentary democracy'.

You'll get to that lesson in Year 10.
114

Highland Mighty©,

29/07/2008 17:44:09
134. Brilliant!
115

brownlie,

Kirkintilloch 29/07/2008 18:08:22
138 British Pride,

We, in the Scottish Labour Party are torn between the status quo, more devolved powers, seperatism or complete independence from the UK Labour Party.

Can you quote any polls to help us decide?
116

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 29/07/2008 18:46:11
The great thing about the unionist posts on here is that they are persisting in the same old stuff, they havn't learned that Scotland is moving forward and their too daft, too poor, too wee rubbish is being discounted by more and more people all the time. add to them those who have finally given up on unionist parties just because of the way they conduct themselves and treat people and independence is getting closer all the time.

There was a time not so long ago when no unionist would have admitted that it's no longer a case of can we but should we, it's a clear indication of how frightened they have become.

It's also an indication to we Nats that it is time to ignore them on here, whatever names they/he or it post under.

We should aim our ideas and arguaments at the silent majority who only read these pages and don't bother to contribute.

Lets look to the future and leave the past, in the shape of those who only seek downplay the future of the people of Scotland to their own misguided devices.

They are no longer worth the effort, Scotlands future is.
117

Daveunderwater,

Little Britain 29/07/2008 20:59:04
I have struggled to try to pin down a specific example of British Culture

Northern Ireland - land of the Giant's Causeway
Wales - land of the male voice choir
England - land of the Morris Dancers
Scotland - land of the bagpipes

The British Dental Association
The British Medical Association
The British Legion

Are all kind of elitist clubs
118

Daveunderwater,

29/07/2008 21:00:33
The culture of the United Kingdom—British culture—refers to the patterns of human activity and symbolism associated with the British people and the United Kingdom.

It is informed by the UK's history as a developed island country, monarchy, imperial power and, particularly, as a political union of four constituent countries—England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales—which each have their own preserved and distinctive customs and symbolism.

119

Daveunderwater,

29/07/2008 21:02:53
As a direct result of the British Empire, British cultural influence (such as the English language) can be observed in the language and culture of a geographically wide assortment of countries such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Pakistan, and South Africa, the United States, and the British overseas territories.

These states are sometimes collectively known as the Anglosphere. Contrariwise, the empire also influenced British culture, particularly British cuisine. Innovations and movements within the wider-culture of Europe have also changed Britain;

Humanism, Protestantism, and representative democracy are borrowed from broader Western culture.

120

Brian M,

Edinburgh 29/07/2008 21:03:48
#151 Stroll on, a meaningless load of waffle of words
121

Beth Boyle,

NY 29/07/2008 21:21:12
Last time I looked at the map Scotland was a fair distance from Westminster!
122

Beth Boyle,

NY 29/07/2008 21:22:07
Last time I looked at the map Scotland was a fair distance from Westminster!
123

Daveunderwater,

29/07/2008 21:29:13
# 153

Walk slowly, a pointless mass of square snacks of diction

???















124

Daveunderwater,

29/07/2008 21:43:01
if the three main contenders for the leadership get their way.

THEY WONT

WENDY TRIED

AND PAID THE PRICE
125

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 29/07/2008 22:22:30
We the SCOTTISH PEOPLE SEEK DISTANCE from westminster too. The further the better. INDEPENDENCE is the only ANSWER.
126

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 23:06:00
Well all unionists can look forward to 12 years of Connservative Unionist rule from Westminster soon. For 15% of the vote in Scotland it is not a bad return for the Conservatives and of course to be welcomed by the Labour Party as the union will be preserved at any cost!

Another little quirk of the Union..an un-democratic state and another lie that that the Scots will soon reject!
127

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 23:08:16
And just to think, the SNP have had to do virtually nothing and Labour has imploded...can't wait for the Conservatives to be in power!
128

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 23:19:36
Here is the ICM poll for Glasgow East from the 19th July:

As with ICM, it shows a substantial Labour lead with voting intentions of LAB 52%, SNP 35%, CON 7%, LDEM 3%. The poll was conducted between the 14th and 17th July, and interviewed 509 people.


I believe the result was somewhat different?
129

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/07/2008 23:43:27
If they can overturn that majority (as we know they did) just wait until Conservative power in Westminster..any reply to the polls for Glasggow East...a tested one i mean..not a little unionist 'clutching at straws one'?
130

Iainbroch,

Moray 30/07/2008 00:16:36
Oh dear the rabid furry quadropeds are still out there. Why cant thier owners take them to the vets!

 

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