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SNP plans 'will mean tartan tax bombshell'

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Published Date: 26 November 2008
THE Scottish Government's flagship local income tax (LIT) plans could leave Scots with a near £1.5 billion "tartan tax bombshell", the Tories warned last night.
A 3 per cent drop in expected income tax yield – as a result of cuts announced by Alistair Darling in Monday's Pre-Budget Report – will leave the SNP with a £300 million shortfall if LIT is set at the planned 3p level, opposition MSPs claimed.

The
SNP has already admitted that its centrally set 3p LIT rate would leave a gap of £281 million.

The party claims the 5 per cent efficiency savings announced on Monday by the Chancellor will mean a further £500 million taken from the Scottish block grant. Added to this, the Nationalists look set to lose out on £400 million of council tax benefit which would no longer come north of the Border, bringing the total shortfall to £1.48 million.

Meanwhile, the SNP's independence aspirations were also dealt a blow by projections of big falls in oil revenues and employment levels, which would put further strain on the Scottish economy.

The SNP still hopes to introduce a bill to abolish the council tax early next year and get its proposal through the Scottish Parliament with support from the Liberal Democrats and Greens, with aspirations of launching LIT in 2011.

Derek Brownlee, the Tories' finance spokesman, accused the Nationalists of "living in fantasy land". He said: "Income tax revenues are projected to fall dramatically and would then have to rise by 25 per cent in a single year just to put them back on track.

"If the Scottish Government really thinks that this will happen, then it is either deluded or perpetrating a massive tartan tax con. The £300 million shortfall is the equivalent of an extra £150 a year for every family in Scotland. If the SNP cannot find this money, then LIT has just got bigger. It is a tartan tax bombshell set to burst just as the economic recovery hopefully begins."

However, a spokesman for John Swinney, the finance secretary, claimed the Tories were too wedded to the "unpopular council tax". He said: "They have nothing to offer when it comes to local taxation except a stubborn adherence to the unfair, discredited council tax, which they designed and which rose massively under their stewardship.

"As the Pre-Budget Report makes clear, income tax receipts will be rising substantially from 2010-1 – a full year before our proposals for a fair local income tax, based on the ability to pay, come into effect."

Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, last night dismissed the SNP's complaints that the Scottish Government was effectively facing a £500 million budget cut in 2010. He said: "I don't believe it's beyond the wit of either Alex Salmond's administration or us at UK level to be more efficient."

In a difficult week for the Nationalists, opponents claimed there was also a blow to their oil-funded dreams of independence in the Pre-Budget Report, with oil revenues projected to drop one third by 2010-1.

This was made worse yesterday when the Organisation of Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) forecast that UK unemployment would be up by 2 per cent by 2010.

Iain Gray, the Scottish Labour leader, said: "The Nationalists' argument for independence has been irreparably undermined by the global economic crisis and the collapse of the oil price. We have always said that basing the entire economic future of Scotland on a single, finite commodity whose price is highly volatile is wilfully naive."

However, the SNP said oil revenue was still at record levels and well above Treasury forecasts.



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1

Rufus T. Firefly,

25/11/2008 22:39:27
A U.K. pre-budget report yesterday cut forecasts for revenue received from North Sea oil and gas tax production for 2009-10, saying both prices and production would continue to fall.

The U.K.'s Treasury pre-budget report for 2008 mentions a "downward revision in North Sea revenues in 2009-10 to GBP1.1 billion," despite a drop of oil and gas prices being less steep in U.K. pounds than U.S. dollars.

Yes folks thats a drop from £13.2 Billion to £1.1 Billion next year.

Our Banks are bust.
25% of Glasgow is on incapacity benefit.
Everybody else works in the Public Sector.
Now Oil is going to generate only £1.1 Billion in 2009.

INDEPENDENCE IS A BUSTED FLUSH!

2

karin.m,

26/11/2008 00:08:07
oy rufus what happened to taxes go up and taxes go down.

does the same not apply to prices.


ireland doesnt have oil they seem to be slightly better off than us. they rent 1 trillion in debt.
3

Rufus T. Firefly,

26/11/2008 00:10:23
"2 karin.m,26/11/2008 00:08:07
ireland doesnt have oil they seem to be slightly better off than us. they rent 1 trillion in debt."

Ireland is a much smaller country with a much smaller economy and a much smaller GDP.

You would therefore expect their debt levels to be far less than the UKs.
4

Rufus T. Firefly,

26/11/2008 00:13:41
What happened to Celtic last night?

What an embarrassment.

1 point out of 54.

Dear oh Dear.

Even John Swinney would struggle to contort these statistics into something positive.
5

karin.m,

26/11/2008 00:16:58
3 so in effect what you are saying rufus is that scotland would be better off being a small country rather than part of UK Plc.

EH? what hapned to stronger together?
6

,

26/11/2008 00:17:17
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7

karin.m,

26/11/2008 00:20:12
so about change again for the unionists being a small country is now a GOOD THING

you and the other unionists have been saying for years scotland is too wee and too poor to go it alone and its gdp isnt big enough.

now your saying thats the reason ireland is doing better than the UK

dont you unionists have any SHAME about the lies you tell.
8

Arrow,

edinburgh 26/11/2008 00:23:27
independent Scotland would not need to pay a share of Trident/the London olympics/london Crossrail, illegal wars and all of the other whistles and bells that the UK Government"needs". Broon is an old fashioned socialist who cannot thole anyone making a profit. if any young person or anyone under 30 has the chance get out of this country now because in 5 years time it is going to be a horrible place to live. it will be like having Ryan air running the place - charged for everything you need (not want!) and you go where they want with precious few safety checks and damn all back-up if it fails.
9

Rufus T. Firefly,

26/11/2008 00:36:06
Karin, you missed the point.

Bigger countries can take on bigger debts and pay them off fairly easily.

Am independent Scotland however would have been wiped out in the current crisis. Nobody would have lent us a cent as they knew they would not get it back.
10

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 00:36:40
'Iain Gray, the "Scottish" Labour leader, said: "The Nationalists' argument for independence has been irreparably undermined..."

This from the man whose local constituency was taken over and is now being run from London. I would say that's a pretty good argument for independence if I were a member of the "Scottish" Labour Party never mind its leader.
11

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 00:39:33
Scotland has everything it needs to be a successful independent nation - good people and plentiful resources.
12

alba nach,

Tarbert 26/11/2008 00:42:21
Rufus, yes Ireland's smaller that's why we usually look at dept as a ratio to GDP.

Ireland's debt to GDP ratio has fallen for each of the last fifteen years. It currently stands at 25% of GDP.

The UK's debt has increased for at least the past five years. In times of plenty there's been no prudence, no saving and no paying down debt. Today the UKs debt is at 43.2% of GDP and will climb to 80% or more of GDP over the next three years.

Guess which of those two countries is a busted flush!
13

karin.m,

26/11/2008 00:49:03
9. pay it off easily.....

you are joking.

my grandchildrens granchildren are goinbg to be paying this off

UK 1 trillion in debt and rising.

what was scotlands GDP before the act of union and how much debt was it in.

wasnt anywhere near the 1707 equivalent of 1 trillion
14

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/11/2008 00:53:27
12 alba#


Don't worry about Rusfus, everyone knows he is about as lightweight as the unionists come.

Three weeks ago he was posting Scotland could not be independent as it only had 1,000,000 tax payers until it was pointed out to him that the actual fugure was 2,500,000.

Yes you are right Ireland's GDP to debt ratio is around 25%. The UK when PFI, pensions and Northern Rock and B&B are taken into account is a staggering 127%...needless to say one of the worst in the world.

Interstting to see that the UK is according to the OECD the worst of the G7 countries to be affected with 10% unemployment coming soon.

The UK is down there with Hungary and Turkey.

Great Britain is now an inernational laughing stock (as is Brown) apart from the unionist slaves on here begging for any salvage, quite funny really how pathetic they are!

Next stop, nationalised banks to save the incompetant liar Brown.

He is the biggest embarassement Scotland has ever has as far as i am concerned and thank goodness the English will boot him into history as a failure come the election.

Meanwhile, everyone else will pay of course!
15

The Strategist,

26/11/2008 01:13:36
#1

Although I recognise you may have difficulty in appreciating this the oil price tends to fluctuate in sync with demand.. Demand is of course a function of the strength of the economy.

Guess what.. The oil price is low because demand has fallen due to the appalling state of the economy.

Who holds all the economic levers Rufus?

16

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 01:23:37
And your point is caller?
17

,

26/11/2008 01:32:48
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18

,

26/11/2008 01:35:12
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19

Finlang,

France 26/11/2008 01:39:34
This "tartan tax" moniker is something that really irritates. It is not, surpsise, exclusively used by English opposition parties but predominantly employed by treacherous "Scots" opposition lackeys, to their eternal shame.

In 200+ years nothing much has changed. Enabled by quisling local media, the scheming chancers are alive and (un)well and living among us. Now that is shameful.
20

,

26/11/2008 01:39:46
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21

,

26/11/2008 01:42:44
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22

,

26/11/2008 01:44:39
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23

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 01:46:58
Darling on NewsNight Scotland admits he's going to cut our pocket money.
24

,

26/11/2008 01:51:13
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25

Forward not Back,

26/11/2008 02:02:09
Does Swinney really believe that tax receipts will increase in 2010-11? If so, he is accepting Labour's laughable premise that this is a "V" shaped recession when in actual fact due to the deleveraging taking place it is an "L" shaped recession.

Also, if Darling is insisting that government at all levels can get more efficient, presumably he won't be throwing that classic Labour lie of "cuts" at the Tories then?
26

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 02:08:35
57 Forward not Back, 26/11/2008 02:02:09

Almost agree although I think this is going to be a "\" shaped depression.
\
\
\
\
\

Formatting will probably screw this up.
27

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 02:09:04
57 Forward not Back, 26/11/2008 02:02:09

Almost agree although I think this is going to be a "\" shaped depression.
\
\
\
\
\

Formatting will probably screw this up.
28

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 02:09:29
Aye - it did : 0 (
29

Edward,

26/11/2008 02:20:22
I find it all very funny, but not unexpected from this paper
For starters, can the Tories actually explain how they reach such figures Is this based on the tax threshold being raised? or is it because the Tories are working from a UK wide treasury model and not actually working on the 3p tax rate that would be unchanged in Scotland?
Secondly, this appears to be a smokescreen put up to divert attention from the fact that Labour have INCREASED excise duty on whisky by 8%!, That Labour will be INCREASING National Insurance, or perhaps that Labour are INCREASING tax on Petrol and Deisel or are planning to INCREASE VAT to 18.5% AFTER the next election! All Labour are happy to talk about is giving the pensioners £ 60 in the new year (big deal), or that they hve reduced, for one year only, the VAT by 2.5%, which will make sod all difference as the majority of goods are not manufactured in this country anyway, there ALL imported, BUT the cots of importing will increase as the pound is DOWN at an all time low.
But Labour dont want you to know that, there happy to keep spouting 'its a world problem' - which it is, allthouhg the worst effected is - the UK!
30

Guga II,

Rockall 26/11/2008 03:11:02
Another Unionist propaganda item from David MadDog.

It is made to look as if this latest press release is on behalf of the Tories, but it is actually yet another press release on behalf of his fellow party members in the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch).

David MadDog, on the assumption that he is actually Scottish (and I have my doubts), must be a very sad individual when he does his best, at every turn, to denigrate and rubbish his own country.

If he was a genuine journalist rather that a Labour Party hack and apologist, would be reporting on how his master, the Quisling Maggie Broon, is currently giving the people some very minimal cuts in taxation, but with the intention of hammering people into the ground in a year or so with very hefty tax increases to pay for the massive amount of debt he has gotten us into. A debt which, incidentally, makes any possible financial moves by the SNP look like loose change.

As I said, if David MadDog is actually Scottish, he is helping the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party to sell Scotland and the Scottish people down the river. I hope his children will be very proud of him.
31

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 26/11/2008 03:52:08
#11 Scunnert

That is a ridiculous assertion. It is simply getting about our station to even have such thoughts!

Were too small

Were too dumb

Were too poor

We don't have enough resources

We don't have an educated workforce

yada

yada

yada

32

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 26/11/2008 04:00:12
I love this bit in the article:-

"Meanwhile, the SNP's independence aspirations were also dealt a blow by...."

So a political opponent of the SNP rejects there plans - how is this a 'blow'.

This article is not journalism but propoganda.

The latest thing the unionists have latched onto is the dip in the oil price. Ask any crdible economist for a projection of oil prices in the next 25 years and you will get one answer only - up, up and up. To suggest otherwise ignores the most basic tenets of economics. Do these not apply in an SNP attack article?

Not journalism, it is politically motivated nonsense that denigrates your own country. Maddox, thank your luckys stars that you are living in Scotland. There are plenty of other countries where your bile would be met much more forcibly than by a keyboard.
33

Ian G,

EDINBURGH 26/11/2008 04:16:38
Our Banks are bust.
25% of Glasgow is on incapacity benefit.
Everybody else works in the Public Sector.
Now Oil is going to generate only £1.1 Billion in 2009.



We needed Independence Years ago.
We need Independence NOW!


The Union is and was a busted flush.
34

Ian G,

EDINBURGH 26/11/2008 04:18:19
OIL goes down when an election looms ahead.
Oil goes up and will last for years to come after an election.
Funny That!
35

,

26/11/2008 04:40:36
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36

Andra, Dundee,

26/11/2008 04:45:04
It's time to mothball the SNP and their "government"
37

Scotindy,

Los Angele 26/11/2008 04:49:01
I have not commented for a couple of weeks, it appearse that the unionists are PANICKING they are looking at any way they can make us SCOTTISH people dumb. Sorry england we are LEAVING YOU and you are going to be FINANCIALLY IN TROUBLE. Have a nice day.england......
38

drunken proffet,

Tassy 26/11/2008 05:01:07
#8 Arrow, you left out the wall they are going to have to build round London and some surrounding counties to keep their heads above water. Dougie Douglas of Brisbane mentioned the mantra, too small, too poor, no resources insufficient level of education in the population, I cannot remember the rest but it was most impressive. Mind you it has been in circulation for at least the last forty years. There is only one way to prove they are wrong. Can anyone give Hawkeye the Noo some advice on avoiding multiple postings. I had the same problem last year. It makes you come over as a total ejiot.
39

,

26/11/2008 05:05:25
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40

,

26/11/2008 05:12:27
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41

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 26/11/2008 05:31:34
Time for all the cybernats to hang up their boots and let out the exasperated sigh of defeat. CU Pal has blown us all out of the water.

:)

42

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 26/11/2008 05:45:25
how much does it cost to run westminster? we have holyrood and brussels? so what do we need to waste millions on westminster for? (lets see how many rangers/bnp supports are awake)
43

Angleland Isover,

26/11/2008 06:49:37
Are we to live like children and see our pocket money go up or down depending on how we behave. Only in Scotland it seems.
44

Nikostratos,,

26/11/2008 07:18:50
#75

Westminster is the greatest security we have from the evil nationalist scourge which infects the scottish body politic.
45

,

26/11/2008 07:27:14
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46

R_K_C,

26/11/2008 07:34:42
#65 If you'd asked those same experts six months ago what they thought today's oil price would be, they would probably have said anything from $120 - $150 / per barrel. What this crisis has shown is that over-reliance on a single commodity is very risky and can mess your budget up big time.

More importantly, North Sea Oil production peaked in 1999 and has been declining by roughly 10% p.a. on average since. Yes, new fields are being found, but these tend to be smaller and most likely production will continue to decline. In those circumstances, it doesn't matter if oil is $2000/barrel in 25 years, if you are only producing a teaspoonful then it's not going to form the bedrock of the economy.
47

,

26/11/2008 07:36:27
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48

Mikey,

26/11/2008 07:37:55
CU Pal, you are fascist Sam and I claim my tax rebate!
49

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 26/11/2008 07:50:12
81

Tell that to the Arabs.

Rules @77 probably has the right idea. Unfortunately, the major land owners of this country benefit from our relaxed tax regime at the upper end of wealth so it would bring about the selling off of land and knock down prices and allow more people to own Scotland which in turn facilitate independence given better ownership rather than tenureship.

And we couldn't have that, could we? The Scots actually owning Scotland....no, never.
50

eric,

Lothian 26/11/2008 07:51:32
I was in ireland recently .Its still there and hasnt been wiped out,iceland is still there.
51

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26/11/2008 07:51:44
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52

Rufus T. Firefly,

26/11/2008 07:56:56
Oil is going to generate only £1.1 Billion in 2009.

Think about that figure.

£1.1 Billion.

The SNP said that oil could make an independent Scotland one of the 7 richest nations in the world.

HA HA HA.

Yes of course it would.

The Royal Bank bail out alone cost more than £20 million.

How do You create a National Oil Fund from £1 billion a year? Does everyone live in caves in the meantime?

Who does the SNPs sums?

What a joke they are.

Bring on the referendum now.

Both banks bust, huge numbers on incapacity benefit, huge numbers working in the public sector, oil bringing in a paltry £1 billion a year and the SNP thinks an independent Scotland is financially viable. In fact not only financially viable, but one of the 7 richest countries in the world.

Vote SNP and Wreck Scotland!
53

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 26/11/2008 08:00:32
Thank goodness we have a SNP Government here in Edinburgh, shielding us from the worst effects of the economically illiterate buffoonery of Westminster.

Remember when they told us that the removal of the 10% tax rate “was the right thing to do”, and they stamped their feet, waved their order papers, and cheered loudly when this measure was passed?

Now they are fooling only themselves when they try to spin that another increase in payroll taxes is yet again, somehow “the right thing to do”.

Ayr right!
54

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/11/2008 08:04:30
86 Rufus#

No more boom and bust lol.

You can't spend your way out of a recession lol.

This is a global crisis lol.


Britian is best placed to weather the current storm (international lol lol).




55

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 26/11/2008 08:06:05
87

Yup, you're right and of course London Labour revert to type and raid Scotland with a Smash and Grab on Whisky amongst other commodities.

As well as a government backed forced take over of HBOS (and bail out of RBS) so eventually much of Scotland will be working for the government (which is not a good idea).

Thankfully we have an SNP government which questions everything that comes out of Westminster instad of a labour led Scottisg Executive which would ask how high whenh told to jump then to make things beetter give us wee slogans such as "The Best Small Country in the World" even though London Labour will never officially recognise us as a Country but only a region of the UK which shows the depth of lies, deciet and stupidity of not only London Labour but also of those that vote them in.
56

john z,

edinburgh 26/11/2008 08:06:41
Look, here's the facts. Labour opposes the Local income tax based upon earnings, as it will cause pressure on them to do likewise in engerland.

The tories and rich interest groups like the CBI Scotland oppose the local income tax based upon ability to pay, as rich people will end up paying more.

At last we have a Scottish Government prepared to get rid of the last remnants of the hated poll tax, and replace it with a local tax based upon earnings.

If you don't earn much you pay less, and if you earn a lot you pay more. Just like income tax.

It's a fair tax, but labour oppose it, and the Tories probably want to bring back the POLL TAX.
57

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 26/11/2008 08:16:56
91 easy money

Please explain your first scentence as it makes no sense at all.

Since we are still part of the UK just now and that we have no choice but to take direction from London and that the SNP can only use the powers granted under the Union ~(since we are not Independent), please explain how the SNP were meant to "run a country" that is not actually officially a country as London will not recognise Scotland as such and never will?

Or is it just a case of that you are stupid?
58

brownlie,

26/11/2008 08:21:07
91 easy Money

Great post - you've worked out that the chaos in which the UK Government has left the country is solely down to the SNP.

Oh, if Alex Salmond had only gone to Weight-watchers the UK coffers would be full, unemployment would be a thing of the past and happiness would reign throughout the land.
59

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/11/2008 08:23:13
You have to admire the Germans, they have seen through the shyster, liar and con-man that Brown is and told the world last night they would not follow his 'plan'.

Oh dear, Gordon has become an international fool and noone is listening to one word he says, hehe what a clown.

The Germans have outed him for what he is, a bungling fool who is not worth listening to.
60

,

26/11/2008 08:24:50
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61

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/11/2008 08:25:45
91 Rufus, 93 Rufus#

The only thing that is 'over' is the UK economy. Let's build a coalition with Hungary, Turkey and Estonia lol.


62

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 26/11/2008 08:27:03
95

You must be in Brazil too with your pal. That or you are unable to read a whole newspaper....and understand politics......or understand the make up of the UK......or are not good with big words......or all of the above....
63

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 26/11/2008 08:28:39
Nevsky

I might be wrong but I think Browlies comment at 93 was a bit of dry sarcasm.

Could be wrong though, but that's how I read it.
64

R_K_C,

26/11/2008 08:29:39
#83 - ok, I will tell the Arabs, there's a couple of them walking past my office now.

Current UK oil production is about 1.6M bpd. Oil production in, for example, the UAE is about 2.5M bpd. However, they only need to provide social benefits to the indigenous population of about 800,000 people. The other 80% of the population are expats who do not get state healthcare, education, unemployment benefit etc.

Furthermore, their oil is much, much cheaper and easier to extract than ours, meaning higher profitability and government revenues.

No matter how you cut it, we are never going to experience oil wealth like the Gulf Arab States.
65

Rufus T. Firefly,

26/11/2008 08:29:43
Independence is a busted flush and everyone knows it.

The oil income would not be enough to cover our Msps Gold Plated Pensions.

England would be in the G7 Scotland would be in the G7000.
66

,

26/11/2008 08:31:34
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67

tommy M,

Scotland 26/11/2008 08:31:49
The only tax bombshells this week are coming from the liebour party - V.A.T increase to 18.5 after the election merely an "error" - erm yeah, OK, and Margaret Curran has lived in the east end of Glasgow all her life!
68

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 26/11/2008 08:32:08
Ah I see a troll @99, 100 and 81.

That's ok then, we can ignore these eejits.
69

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 26/11/2008 08:32:11
The Tories don't understand LOCAL Income tax. LIT properly and locally applied in a locally accountable manner is fairer on everyone as it draws in those who presently earn but don't own a home etc and reflects more accurately the LOCAL needs and priorites for oue communities we populate, so everyone sees the benfits and has a say in them.

The problem with the SNP introducing it only in Scotland is the Big Issue (just like the Poll tax fiasco thank Tories) so the only way is for the LibDems to vote it in when we hold the balance of power after the next general election. That way it will be fairly and locally applied, throughout the United Kingdom.
70

Mcsnagpile,

26/11/2008 08:33:06
I agree on a Tartan tax-- anything worn or excessively worn under the kilt to be taxed.

Things are so bad the time has come tae take a trip o'er the border and nab a few sheep.
71

,

26/11/2008 08:33:07
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72

john z,

edinburgh 26/11/2008 08:34:46
86 RUFUS,

You are talking nonsense as usual.

Quote; "The SNP said that oil could make an independent Scotland one of the 7 richest nations in the world."

Actually it wasn't the SNP that said that, it was the report by oil economist Professor McCrone from the 1970's, which was suppressed by the english parliament and classified as SECRET, and only came to light two years ago, following repeated pressure by the SNP under the FOI.

QUOTE from the report in 1975; "(the) country would tend to be in chronic surplus to a quite embarrassing degree and its currency would become the hardest in Europe, with the exception perhaps of the Norwegian kroner."

The country mentioned above was Scotland. In fact, McCrone was indeed critical of the SNP assessments of Scottish oil wealth, but only so far as to point out, that the SNP estimates were too low;

QUOTE; "Thus, all that is wrong now with the SNP estimate is that it is far too low"

McCrone also helpfully pointed out that the true strength of Scottish oil is not just its actual value, but the implications it has for a country's balance of payments.

But like all english unionists, Rufus, you never let the truth get in the way of your pro english nonsense, do you.

Scotland is the only oil producing nation in the world that gives away its oil for free to another country. There are at least another forty years of oil left in Scotland, so do we really still want to give it to england for free??
73

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 26/11/2008 08:37:07
johnz

I don't think we have a choice now with regards our oil. I think that ship has sailed.

I'm happy to let England have it and I'd rather be poor but independant than live from handouts from London Labour.
74

john z,

edinburgh 26/11/2008 08:37:37
Rufus,

While Scotland 'only' produces as much oil as Kuwait, and not as much as the UAE, is that any reason to give it away for free to england??

It won't make Scots millionaires overnight, but by the same token, I don't think the oil from Scotland should be given to england for free. Do you??
75

Royster,

26/11/2008 08:38:16
Karin, Ireland is very big trouble financially. Much, much worse than the UK. All the new-found wealth comes from the fact that interest rates have been below inflation for too long. The Irish housing and construction markets are now wiped out for a life-time. The UK's, however, will recover after about 5 years.
76

john z,

edinburgh 26/11/2008 08:39:28
109

I quite agree
77

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 26/11/2008 08:41:04
111 Royster

Prove your assertion with reagrds the UK construction market recovering after 5 years.
78

Royster,

26/11/2008 08:42:46
Karin, When is Ireland going to stop its unofficial policy of poncing off its neighbours? How come it can undercut the rest of the EU zone with its dodgy corporation tax whilst its population still has the unfettered right to work and claim the social in the UK?
79

R_K_C,

26/11/2008 08:44:19
#103 Troll? Is that the best answer you can come up with? Pathetic. Annoying when somebody produces facts and figures that discredit your arguement, isn't it?
80

Royster,

26/11/2008 08:45:39
#113. Cannot be proved but sterling interest rates, unlike the euro, are controlled by the Bank of England and set according to domestic economic conditions. The property market has been going up for a decade. It wil now take a few years to cool down. UK construction might be okay because of the public works funded by UK borrowing.
81

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 26/11/2008 08:46:04
114 Royster

Most EU citizens have that right. In fact, quite a lot of illegal immigrants seem to have that right too.

Besides, it was a deal cut between governments when Eire fought thier war of independence and the pay off is security for England.
82

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 26/11/2008 08:47:12
116 Royster,

"Cannot be proved"

Yup, you said it. The argument is a non starter then based on speculation and hyperbole.

Anybody can do that.
83

Elephant,

Linlithgow 26/11/2008 08:48:42
I have no doubt Scotland would survive as an independent nation. But would it prosper? Go to the South East of England and see what they have to put up with. Maternity wards with no cover. Ludicrous high house prices. 5 kids to a bedroom in central London. Transport gridlock. Then consider the fact that London & the South East pay 3bn in stamp duty per year alone(50% of the national total), i.e. twice what Scottish Oil will yield this year. That's before you get to income tax... Then consider the fact that these people have 25% LESS per head spent on their services than we do. If you wish to sacrifice this advantage, fine. But be prepared to lose tax credits and public sector jobs, see service declines and face spiralling price increases.
84

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 26/11/2008 08:50:48
119 Elephant,Linlithgow

You might be possibly right but if we join the EU instead, we are offered protection along with every other EU nation.

The UK isn't the only Union in the World you know.
85

Linda,

Edinburgh 26/11/2008 08:51:09
The problems with LIT and Futures Trust actually underline the essential need for political, financial and cultural independence from the London centric Westminster straightjacket.
86

Queen D,

Glasgow 26/11/2008 08:51:26
Do you think there will ever come a time when journalists will feel shame at the propaganda preached and the lies and spin told as fact?
Do you think they may reach a point , possibly when the Ministry of Truth( the BBC) has taken over every newspaper , every avenue of communication, that they will apologise to the people for their deception?
Do you think the people will forgive you?
Thailand seems to have taken to people power in a big way as does Iceland, what does it take for the people of the UK and Scotland in particular , to wake up and realise that we are being cheated and lied to and have been cheated and lied to for the last 50 years? ( not to mention the other 250!)
87

R_K_C,

26/11/2008 08:52:46
#107, usual Nationalist cherry-picking of the bits you like and ignoring the wider implications. Having the "hardest currency in Europe" would not have been a good thing. For a start it would have wiped out Scottish manufacturing. The strengthening of the pound on the back of North Sea oil did serious damage to UK manufacturing as a whole, think what it would have been like if it had been concentrated on Scotland alone.
88

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 26/11/2008 08:56:46
122 Queen D

Interesting concept regarding journo's feeling shame. I think we all know that answer to that!
89

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 26/11/2008 08:59:48
I will quite happily pay extra tax for Independance,I will work twice as hard for twice as long knowing I am doing it for my own kin and not to keep some rich English landowner or politician in the lap of luxury. In order to help the building industry I would encourage every scotsman to buy a brick and start rebuilding Hadrians wall...
90

Elephant,

26/11/2008 09:08:14
#20
Protection yes, advantage no. We already get plenty of EU handouts. The Blackness roadside trees are funded by Brussels. Our nearest and biggest trading partner is England, and it already part-subsidises our hospitals and schools. Do you know of a better arrangement anywhere in the world?
91

Elephant,

Linlithgow 26/11/2008 09:09:12
That last post was for #120, apols.
92

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 26/11/2008 09:13:04
126

Yes, Cuba.
93

butamitt,

Glasgow 26/11/2008 09:14:25
8 -arrow
"Broon is an old fashioned socialist"

Anyone who can post this with a straight face really hasn't a clue. When did "an old fashioned socialist" ever give tax breaks to the rich, deregulate financial markets, refuse to do anything about off-share tax havens and reverse tax-breaks to the poor. The reported recent tax 'hike' for the rich to 45% won't come into force for a couple of years (so expect this to be quietly dropped) and even at that some of the big European economies have tax rates of around 50% so it's not exactly soaking the rich.

I wish people would stop going on about New Labour being socialist as they dropped all socialist principles over a decade ago. Of course for a lot of right-wing people 'socialist' is an insult word used without any thought. If they did think they'd realise Brown's being carrying out neo-liberal right wing economics imported from the USA - and look at the mess they're in. Admittedly he also wasted billions in inefficient big government, PFI/PPPs and illegal wars - but then the USA has been wasting a lot of money in big government too (just that none of it was in any way designed to help the ordinary guy - at least Brown tried that, incompetent as he was).
94

Highland Mist,

26/11/2008 09:23:10
Putting the SNP in power was a bit like entrusting Scotland's future in The Darien Venture.
95

Chum of Boris,

Henley on Thames 26/11/2008 09:24:40
125 Banana Heid

In order to help the building industry I would encourage every scotsman to buy a brick and start rebuilding Hadrians wall...

Lay off our wall. We English have had enough of Scottish vandals. You have wrecked your own banks and we are having to pay to bail them out. Scottish politicians - Brown and Darling - have wrecked our economy. Now you are urging all the Jocks to come to England and wreck a world heritage site.
96

Queen D,

Glasgow 26/11/2008 09:28:01
So yo don't think they can feel shame then Donnie?
May I suggest you all visit the Herald Tribune of yesterday , where they cover the referendum being held in Greenland about their independence from the Danes.
Tiny population went to the polls yesterday Greenland is rich in natural resources much like Scotland.
The Danes are quite happy to let Greenland achieve on its own.
Brians Blog has more information from a blogger , NOT Brian or the BBC.
97

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/11/2008 09:31:12
130 Mist#

Or the UK to Gordon 'international laughing stock' Brown you mean?

I see the Germans yesterday told the world that they had rejected Brown's 'plan' if that is what you can call it. They have quite clearly seen through Brown after realising he was chancellor for 10 years!

Britain is now down there with Turkey and Hungary according to the OECD, possibly the worst financial state this country has ever been in and the IMF are wondering what the he** Brown and Darling are doing!

All thanks to Gordon the incompetant clown and liar!
98

Marian,

26/11/2008 09:39:44
If as according to Post #1 above Scotland has become "a busted flush" under New Labour's rule of the UK then full independence for Scotland would appear to be the only viable alternative to get it out from the mess that the UK New Labour Party has made of Scotland!
99

Highland Mist,

26/11/2008 09:39:45
#133, yea, Brown is just as bad. But that doesn't make Humpty Dumpty and his sidekick Jimmy Crankie in Edinburgh any better, they are just as bad and together they are all on the road to ruining our economy and our nation. Politicians with agendas that are only to ensure their power and sweet damn all to do with the real problems.
100

Mallory,

Edinburgh 26/11/2008 09:44:37
\.
\.
\.
\.
\.
\............

;-}
101

shivago8,

livingston 26/11/2008 09:53:52
Maddox is not a man of vision is he,time for the white stick or the zimmer,get real young man.
Scots must stand up and be counted and be it,s own nation again.
We have been tied to the union and mashlands apron strings too long.
England does not recognise this country
102

Calum10,

26/11/2008 09:54:04
The Council Tax is DEAD - Long live LIT.
103

Alan B,

26/11/2008 09:59:52
#123 " Having the "hardest currency in Europe" would not have been a good thing."

The reason for it being a hard currency would have been the overwelming wealth. Why would you want to be wealthy. Better stay poor and in the union.

Off course there are difficulties acrruing so much wealth and adjusting the economy. However it is a far better and enviable situation to be in than not having such wealth.

Your post is almost ridiculous. It really just says that we are better poor in the union than rich outside because there may be problems that also have to be dealt with when rich.
104

Alan B,

26/11/2008 10:07:07
The logical conclusion of this article is fiscal autonomy.

It basically says that the scottish parliament using the powers given to it to change local government taxation will be undermined by uncoordinated changes to the westminster tax system.

Change the allowance levels in london and that will have a direct knock on, for LIT. Darling raises top rate tax to 45% and suddenly top rate tax is 48% and not 43%.

The current fiscal arrangements make it laughable for the scottish parliament to make a serious difference to the way scotland is governed.
105

Dunfesterin,

Yer maw's 26/11/2008 10:09:11
Quite frankly, if you dont vote for independence then you must be happy subsidising Gorbals Mick and his ilk in a parliament composed of warmongers, thieves and liars.

I too would rather be poor in an independent Scotland than live in a union with the police state known as England. The English people accept anything the government throws at them.
106

G,

dndy 26/11/2008 10:17:31
#141 I'd love to get the chance to vote for independence but the SNP gov won't go for a referendum....why would that be?
107

R_K_C,

26/11/2008 10:21:45
#139 You have missed the point. Having an extremely hard currency would have resulted in mass unemployment as our manufacturing and service industries became globally and regionally uncompetitive. The new-found wealth would have ended up being spent either on unemployment benefit, or on creating marginal state sector jobs in order to keep everyone in employment.
108

Alan B,

26/11/2008 10:23:57
#G

How do you work that out. As you must be obviously unaware the snp put forward plans to bring forward a referendum for independence in 2010 in its manifesto. It is keeping to this pledge.

Whether the other unionist parties run scarded of allowing the people the choice at a referendum and block legislation for a referendum only time will tell. So far both the tories and lib dems have refused to support legislation for a referednum. And labour is still spinning in its uturns. (No but yes under Wendy and no under Grey).

It makes sense for the public to know what calman is suggesting before a referendum and also wether the government will implement its proposals. At the moment Calman is in danger of become a bad joke. It is also possible that Calmans recommendations if they ever get any should be put to the people in a referendum.
109

Alan B,

26/11/2008 10:30:44
#R_K_C

Ask any country whether they would knock back a goldmine like oil in the 70s and the answer would be no.

Would Norway be as rich without oil. Answer no.

Did the uk say not to oil. The freedom of info shows the lengths to which the government and whitehall went to keep scotland within the union for oil.

Also look what happened as a result of no walking away with oil and having a rich economy in the 70s. Mass unemployment for a generation. Decay and decline during the 70s and mass unemployment in the 80s. With slow growth and being poorer that other small countries aswell as the rest of the uk.

The uk has been a disaster from an economic perspective for scotland over the last 40yrs. So many of our young graduates and others have to head south for decent jobs over the last 30yrs. The Tebbit test in action.

Also if oil would have meant the devastation of our manufacturing industry what actually happened in the 70s and 80s and even late 90s within the union. Yes that is right the devastation of our manufacturing industry.







110

Alan B,

26/11/2008 10:33:31
#R_K_C

Just have a look at the Norwegian economy over the last 30yrs. They had a similar wealth than us back in the 70s.

That just show how ridiculous your assertions are about mass unemployment.

It is also arrogant and ignorant due to the suffering people had to endure with mass unemployment during the 80s.
111

Miss H,

26/11/2008 10:36:14
107, AlanB, R_K_C. You are having a slightly meaningless argument.

What happened in the 70s happened in the 70s.

There are lessons that can be learned from it obviously. The Scottish people were repeatedly told that independence was a tartan tinged romantic fantasy, that Scotland could not survive as an independent country, that it would lead to mass unemployment, poverty and collapse of industry.

This was all rubbish and the McCrone Report proves that political decision makers knew that it was rubbish and made a calculated judgement to tell lies rather than acknowledge the truth. What happened of course is that we in Scotland did not get the oil but we did get the mass unemployment, poverty and collapse of industry,

So 2 lessons learned – 1. Politicians lie and 2. By believing those lies the Scottish people missed out on the opportunity to take control of their own wealth and the political decision making process to make it work for them instead of allowing it to work against them.

Those are the lessons that are important. What would have worked for an independent Scotland in the 70s and 80s might not work now. Global circumstances shift and change and one country can’t do anything about that. But any country that does not have control of its own resources and decision making is pretty much asking to get shafted. It is what happened in the 70s, it is what is happening now, it will continue to happen as long as we are content to be sidelined.

112

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26/11/2008 10:36:20
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Nik,

Embra 26/11/2008 10:36:52
#143 You have missed the point. Having an extremely hard currency would have resulted in mass unemployment as our manufacturing and service industries became globally and regionally uncompetitive. The new-found wealth would have ended up being spent either on unemployment benefit, or on creating marginal state sector jobs in order to keep everyone in employment.


Oh my god! I believe it's you that has spectacularly missed the point. The posts that you have written, and your reasoning behind them, have to be the most ridiculous I have ever read. They display one of the most colossal levels of stupidity I have ever seen.
114

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26/11/2008 10:37:44
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Queen D,

Glasgow 26/11/2008 10:39:31
Hope the chap who actually blogged this does'nt sue me!
But it is most interesting!

Would you believe it? There is actually a rather lively debate going on in the French media on the subject of today's Greenland referendum, which the autonomists appear likely to win. Yet in the UK there is virtually complete silence, as far as I am aware. The French, of course, will readily debate anything under the sun, even the midnight sun.

I have taken the liberty of translating, rapidly, the following post from a francophone resident of Nuuk, who is busy debating with opponents of Greenland independence on the Le Figaro Web site. It may help to give a little flavour of what is going on. Some of this may seem strangely familiar:

"There is no resentment; the Inuits here are faced with the disappearance of their language, their culture and the plundering of their natural resources (everyone will have profited from them except the Greenland population).

"They are not rejecting relations with other cultures at all but simply wish to preserve their language and traditions. I don't think one should blame them for that. Quite the reverse. They hope that the 'kaalallisut' (Greenlanders) may improve their status in Kalaallit Nunaat (the Inuit name for Greenland). At present everything happens in both the Greenlandic and Danish languages; absolutely everything is repeated (television news reports are transmitted once with subtitles in one language and again in subtitles in the other one; 2 radio news bulletins every hour in both languages, and it is the same pattern for every programme), all of which is immensely expensive and administratively cumbersome.

"What Greenlanders want is recognition as a people and not to be treated as dependants. They want to play a more active role in the future of their country. I think we should encourage them and wish them good luck. The problems which they will have to face are numerous, but they know that and are prepared to do what is n
116

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26/11/2008 10:39:57
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Alan B,

26/11/2008 10:44:50
#Miss H

You are correct it is abit meaningless. However it is a ridiculous economic argument to suggest scotland would have suffered badly independent because of oil and the associated wealth that it would have brought.

Oil was a goldmine which we wasted and are a significantly poorer country as a result.

However for someone silly enough to suggest that we were better with the mass unemployment of the 80s and the industrial decline of the 70s and the pain that inflicted on the population of scotland is a unionist argument gone too far with a sheer contempt for the people.

118

Alan B,

26/11/2008 10:46:46
#Nik

Remember the labour government energy minister at the time (70s) is reported to have said scotland could not be trusted with oil and would just squander it.
119

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 26/11/2008 10:53:18
More Unionist spin from the Scotsman. The LIT will happen as the Scottish public demand it
120

R_K_C,

26/11/2008 10:58:03
Oil wealth would not have prevented industrial decline in the 1970s or unemployment in the 80s, it would have made them worse. We would have ended up with a bloated state-dominated workforce, then along comes an oil price crash (oil bottomed out at $8 a barrel in the late 90s) and suddenly the country is bankrupt.

Norway is not an apples-with-apples comparison, their economy is primarily based on primary industries, with less emphasis on manufacturing and services. Crucially, they have never been in the EEC/EU and can exercise much tighter control over immigration and other relationships with other nations. McCrone himself stated in his report that most likely there would have been freedom of movement within the former UK countries in the event of independence, in which case you would likely have had mass migration to newly-wealthy Scotland, with additional demands on infrastructure and net wages remitted to countries of origin (i.e. a mass outflow of wealth by migrant workers).
121

The Sprucer,

26/11/2008 10:58:45
#151 This is most interesting indeed. I had no idea this was happening. One wonders whether the natives of Greenland are panicking about the "financial downturn" hitting their banks and businesses!

I will try to find out the result of this in due time and will of course be writing to the editor of this paper as well as to The Herald and The BBC.
122

Nik,

Embra 26/11/2008 10:59:08
#Alan B

Oh how remiss of me to forget that! Of course we would have wasted it all, and not tried to use it to better the country. Silly me!

#R_K_C

Sorry, I take everything I said back. Of course discovering a huge asset to our country would have made us a complete basket case, and worse off than we are now. Oops!
123

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26/11/2008 11:00:25
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oder,

Scotland 26/11/2008 11:02:18
131 Chum of Boris,Henley on Thames

your wall? it was built by the Romans and left to the English and as usual ends up a ruin which looks like what will happen to "your" Scotland, the ability of the English to wreck things (especially other countries) is evident from English past history!
since the majority of brick making factories are in England the bigger benefit would go to the English firms and the cost to England reduced! and a heritage (English)site restored! you people just dont understand do you? when the next boat race old boy?
125

The Master,

26/11/2008 11:02:41
It's more than time for a nationalist Cameron/Blair figure to emerge: this party is in much need of modernisation.

Two policies in particular spring to mind as in urgent need of (shall we say) "rebranding":

1. The separation policy: Gray's criticism of this really is like kicking a man when he's down: how sad that obfuscating about oil revenues being "above Treasury forecasts" is the best the Nat spin doctors can come up with.

2. Poll Tax 2: is it any coincidence that the party which invented the original poll tax have proved the most effective at putting the boot in on this one? Projected falls in income tax levels can only lead to yet more Tartan Tory type tax cuts of the kind that proved so unpopular in Glenrothes.

Tick! Tock!
126

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26/11/2008 11:05:53
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The Master,

26/11/2008 11:06:13
Erratim: Tartan Tory type spending cuts of the kind that proved so unpopular in Glenrothes.
128

R_K_C,

26/11/2008 11:06:13
#155 is correct, the SNP made the case in the 70s that an independent Scotland could be wealthy. The fact the people did not go along with them is down to the SNP themselves having damaged their own credibility with the electorate and just possibly the fact that the majority of Scottish people were comfortable being within the UK. To suggest that the forecasts of one man would dramatically change that position is stretching things a bit.
129

The Master,

26/11/2008 11:10:33
#163: argh! Who mentioned that McCrone Thingy! If it's nationalist DaVinci Code time again, then I'm off! Talk about scraping fingernails down the classroom blackboard!
130

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/11/2008 11:10:41
165 RKC#

Comfortable in the UK because of 300 years of subjugation and being told they could possibly be independent.

Westminster has played the greatest psychological trick on any country in history and lackeys like you believe it!
131

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/11/2008 11:10:57
couldn't
132

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/11/2008 11:12:31
165 rkc#

One simple question in that case. Why was the McCrone report not released?
133

brownlie,

26/11/2008 11:14:07
98 Donnie Murdo

Tha thu ceart, a charaid!!!!
134

R_K_C,

26/11/2008 11:17:41
#167 who is subjugated? Certainly not me, and not any Scottish person alive today, as far as I can see. If you feel subjugated then you have my sympathy.

Btw, the Westminster that you are referring to is the same one that I'm thinking of, is it? The one currently dominated by Scots? Just checking.
135

Tom R,

26/11/2008 11:17:51
Edward #62 and others

I note that Darling is admitting that-yet again-his department have screwed up their calculations and the increase in the cost of whisky is an error. He says this error will be corrected.

This admission of error is good news in that the whisky industry (which would obviously be much better nurtured by an independent Scotland) will not be damaged further by these incompetents.

However, it is clear and continuing evidence of the poverty of talent in Labour's ranks-especially in the Treasury!
136

Doh,

26/11/2008 11:22:56


How do the Tories and Scotsman get away with printing this guff?

The purpose of LIT is to replace the council tax not raise taxes. If income tax has fallen then that of course means that people have less income - however Labour and the Tories expect them to pay them same amount of council tax.

Just a different spin on the same story.

Shameful bias from the Scotsman again.
137

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/11/2008 11:24:40
175 sm753#

You are either a naive fool or just plain stupid, i am not sure which.

The UK knew that oil was going to be a vein of wealth that they had never had before and you really think that Westminster would have released a report stating that Scotland would be one of the richest countries in the world if it was independent?

You are aff yer nut!
138

Tom R,

26/11/2008 11:25:54
#172 SM753

Even Dennis Healey (the Chancellor) admitted the Scots had been deliberately deceived about the value of North Sea Oil by the Labour government.

His attitude is that the Scots should have been bright enough to work out the true value and significance for themselves-if only that were true.
139

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/11/2008 11:27:48
179 Tom#

Not only not bright enough but also spineless a lot of them!
140

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26/11/2008 11:33:25
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26/11/2008 11:33:55
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26/11/2008 11:34:38
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Tom R,

26/11/2008 11:40:14
#184 sm753.

The big lie was that the unionist parties denied that what the SNP were saying about the value of oil was true, in the clear and certain knowledge that it WAS true.

That, dear unionist, is a BIG LIE!
144

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/11/2008 11:42:29
184 sm853#

The lie was Westminster repeatedly stating that Scotland would be a wasteland were it to be independent in the full knowledge that the McCrone report stated otherwise.

That is by any stretch of the imagination a lie. In fact it has been a lie for 30 years.



145

R_K_C,

26/11/2008 11:47:30
#186 and 188

It was not "certain". It was one man's opinion/forecast.
146

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26/11/2008 11:49:16
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bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 26/11/2008 11:49:21
The following is typical of the hard of learning unionistas:-

“What happened to Celtic last night?”

“Oil is going to generate only £1.1 Billion in 2009.”

“The oil income would not be enough to cover our Msps Gold Plated Pensions”

“The Boys Brigade collect more for Barnados every year than there is in annual oil revenue.”

What none of them appear to have grasped is that Darling in his pre-budget speech was referring to a reduction in the forecast oil revenues of £1.1billion in 2009-2010.
He is still however forecasting that the revenues will amount to £8.7billion that year, and £13.2Billion in the current year, which would represent an increase from £7.8billion from the previous year.

148

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 26/11/2008 11:51:22
A few ponts about McCrone.

McCrone's report was a forecast or projection and it is not therefore appropriate to describe it as "truth" or otherwise.

Parts of his report were accurate but others were not. The "chronic surplus" he referred to was only a feature for a few years in the eighties but Mccrone did not foresee the collapse in the oil price which took place in the late eighties which led to revenues falling dramatically.

Anyway that is all academic now as all one has to do is go the BERR oil and gas website. In the information section you will see a chart showing total revenues for every year from 1974/75 to 2006/07.

These have all been converted to 2006/07 prices using the appropriate deflator.

To get some idea of the significance of oil revenues the Scottish Govt's own figures show that the deficit in the Sottish budget for that year (2006/07) was 10.2bn if no oil revenues are taken into account. If a "geographical" share is taken into account then this falls to £2.7bn

If you look at the chart you will see that, with the adjustment made for 2006/07 prices, there are only 6 years when total oil/gas revenues were over £10.2bn.

This is not an absolutely exact analysis as it assumes that the £10.2bn deficit is typical in real terms. However if you apply the deflator to the deficit for the last 5 years, all of the deficits appear in the range £9bn to £10.5bn so it would appear to be a reasonable indicator.

It should also be remembered that this refers to total oil and gas revenues and according to the Scottish Govt, Scotland should receive 82.5% of them.

This demonstrates that these "chronic surpluses2 would only have been significant in 5 or 6 years out of the 33. Of course those who chose to quote a limited period which includes those 5/6 years can paint a different picture. But the evidence is pretty conclusive.
149

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26/11/2008 11:51:52
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26/11/2008 11:55:40
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26/11/2008 11:56:35
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26/11/2008 11:56:44
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26/11/2008 12:00:11
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PaulW,

Borders 26/11/2008 12:04:11
#1 and #86 and beyond - Rufus or should that be Dufus Firefly. Back to elementary school for you, chum.

You stated:

“Yes folks thats a drop from £13.2 Billion to £1.1 Billion next year.

Our Banks are bust.
25% of Glasgow is on incapacity benefit.
Everybody else works in the Public Sector.
Now Oil is going to generate only £1.1 Billion in 2009.

INDEPENDENCE IS A BUSTED FLUSH!”

What utter tosh. The Pre-Budget report produced by your chums at Westminster clearly states in the table on p 203 (unlike you, I can read!) that in 2007/08, oil and gas revenues were £7.8 billion. In 2008/09, they are forecast to have risen to £13.2 billion and next year, and please do read this, they will be £8.7 billion with oil assumed at just over $60 per barrel. What you were reading was the fact that the Treasury is projecting that (at £8.7 billion) revenues will be £1.1 billion lower (that’s what “downward revision” means, Dufus), due to oil price falls – see the last sentence of para B.54.


“B.53 North Sea revenues in 2008-09 are expected to be £3.3 billion above the Budget 2008
forecast, reflecting the rapid rise in both oil and gas prices up to July. Since then, oil prices have
fallen back sharply, but are likely to still average just over $100 a barrel in 2008 as a whole, well
above the $83.8 a barrel assumed in the Budget 2008 forecast.........”

and

B.54 The projections of North Sea revenues for 2009 and beyond use the NAO audited
oil price assumption. This is either the average of independent forecasts for the year ahead,
or if lower, the average of the past month’s oil price in nominal dollar terms, as is the case
with this forecast. This gives an oil price of $60.1 a barrel for 2009, which is the key driver of
the projected 33 per cent fall in North Sea revenues in 2009-10. The depreciation of sterling
against the dollar means that the drop in the oil price in sterling terms is less steep than in
dollar terms. This helps limit the do
155

,

26/11/2008 12:04:18
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156

PaulW,

Borders 26/11/2008 12:05:55
B.54 The projections of North Sea revenues for 2009 and beyond use the NAO audited
oil price assumption. This is either the average of independent forecasts for the year ahead,
or if lower, the average of the past month’s oil price in nominal dollar terms, as is the case
with this forecast. This gives an oil price of $60.1 a barrel for 2009, which is the key driver of the projected 33 per cent fall in North Sea revenues in 2009-10. The depreciation of sterling against the dollar means that the drop in the oil price in terling terms is less steep than in dollar terms. This helps limit the downward revision in North Sea revenues in 2009-10 since the Budget to £1.1 billion.”
157

,

26/11/2008 12:06:03
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158

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2008 12:06:15
The present block grant system based on the Barnett formula is a recipe for pass the buck when it comes to taking responsibility. Holyrood blames Westminster because it says it does not have enough finances; Westminster MPs (especially in the North of England) moan that Scotland gets too much; and so on.

With full fiscal autonomy it would make the Scottish Parliament fully responsible for its actions and unable to pass the buck when things did not go well. Equally there would be no more England subsidises Scotland arguments as it would be a completely redundant argument.

That all being said, one also has to be honest regards the Scottish budget income. Grant Thornton has shown that at $120 a barrel there is budgetary surplus of £4.4 billion whilst at $75 a barrel there is a budgetary deficit of around £1 billion. Therefore any Scottish government working under full fiscal autonomy would have to ensure that it carried forward to cope with times in the economic cycle when deficits were being run. The one worry I do have is that as things stand none of the political parties particularly inspire regards their ability to carry forward any surplus. Both Labour and the SNP, given their manifesto priorities at the last election, strike me as parties who in government will tax and spend - given an income they will spend it regardless. Moreover, with our system of PR it would be likely that any government in coalition with the likes of the Lib Dems or Greens might have to throw them some kind of financial sop to keep them on board.

Therefore, the belief that full fiscal autonomy will somehow bring instant fiscal responsibility is misleading. It will take time for that responsibility to be built up as a Scottish Government learns it has to cope with the bad times as well as the good times.

(to be continued)
159

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2008 12:06:53
(#208 continued)

Now you might think that I am about to say we should not bring in full fiscal autonomy - but you would be wrong. Thus, crazy as it may sound, introducing full fiscal autonomy during an economic downturn may be no bad thing as Scottish politicians would have to be a lot more focussed in getting the best out of a budget limited by economic factors. It would learn to be more responsible far quicker than if such a policy were introduced during a period of surplus.
160

Ugly George,

26/11/2008 12:11:42
205 hugh roscombe
Jurisdiction is not the same as ownership. If you own shares in a company operating in France then that company is subject to French juridiction and law but you are still a part-owner.
161

PaulW,

Borders 26/11/2008 12:11:50
Further to previous posts - for Rufus/Dufus' benefit, check the previous Treasury forecasts (Pre-Budget 2007 and Budget 2008) for oil revenues for 2008/09 and 2009/10 and you will see that all they are doing in this Pre-Budget is making adjustments upwards in 2008/09 (by £3.3 billion, due to high oil prices) and downwards in 2009/10 (by £1.1 billion, due to lower prices).

If OPEC cuts production this week, as predicted, who is to say that this will not be wrong in any case, as oil could go up in price. Some forecasters, such as Oxford Economics, have oil at over $80 in the medium to long term.
162

Nikostratos,,

26/11/2008 12:12:04
#195 and all the others

What is McCroneism

is a chronic, severe, and disabling brain disorder that has been recognized throughout recorded history. It affects about 1 percent of extremist scottish nationalist supporters

People with McCroneism may hear voices other people don't hear or they may believe that others are reading their minds, controlling their thoughts, or plotting to harm them. These experiences are terrifying and can cause fearfulness, withdrawal, or extreme agitation. People with McCroneism may not make sense when they talk, may sit for hours without moving or talking much, or may seem perfectly fine until they talk about what they are really thinking. Because many people with McCroneism have difficulty holding a job or caring for themselves, the burden on their families and society is significant as well.





163

Nikostratos,,

26/11/2008 12:14:19
#209

Yeah! just like they have in Zimbabwe
164

R_K_C,

26/11/2008 12:16:05
#208 Interesting. Do you have a link to this report? Do you know what production assumptions are used in the surplus/deficit calculation?
165

PaulW,

Borders 26/11/2008 12:16:43
#208 and #209

Interesting posts. I am pro-Independence myself, but agree that greater financial discipline will be established under full fiscal autonomy options too. Obviously we want to go that wee bit further on the path to nationhood, but the model you have suggested does have soem merits - better than the current arrangements? Certainly.

Perhaps that is why labour hate it so. Given their recent performance on public sector borrowing......and Rufus's failure to read a budget report properly.
166

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2008 12:17:59
My initial problem with the proposals was that it was not actually a LOCAL Income Tax. Fortunately it now seems that there is going to be a sunset clause that at least puts a timescale on making sure that happens.

Most other objections relate to technical issues with the tax - it is impotant that the Scottish Government listens to these genunie concerns and takes action to ensure that these problems do not occur.

What they do not want to do is be like the Labour Party. Labour need to take their heads out of the sand. If they genuinely support a property tax (and I have no problems with that) then they really need to tell us what it is instead of giving us all this airy-fairy guff.
167

Ugly George,

26/11/2008 12:18:24
208 The Federalist
You are right. A source of revenue as volatile as oil revenues should not be treated as part of the current account. That is a mistake that has been made in the past.

The problem is though, as you point out, that political pressure tends to encourage parties to do this. We will no doubt see this in the run up to any possible referndum. The figure of £13.2bn for oil revenues for this year (assuming that is what it comes to) will be quoted and the £7.8bn for last year will be ignored.
168

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 26/11/2008 12:18:26
#131 A common misperception that! Hadrians wall was built to keep the English out of Scotland not the other way around...Fact...as for Brown and Darling, they aint Scottish. Scotland has disowned that pair of traitors...You are welcome to keep them...
169

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26/11/2008 12:18:26
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The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2008 12:18:31
One thing should be clear - retention of Council Tax in its present form is not an option.

It at the very least needs reforming if not replaced.

Certainly an argument could be made to bring in more directed assistance for groups such as pensioners who have been worst affected by Council Tax. A case could also be made for more frequent, independent revaluations. It would be far better than the nonsense of basing bands on notional 1991 values.

Personally though I would rather have a complete rethink over local taxation and there are definitely more radical alternatives out there such a local sales tax, a local income tax or even a local wealth tax.

Whatever system is put in place must, in my opinion, strengthen not lessen the accountability role of local taxation. However it is because the financial and functional relationship between central, Scottish and local government is so intertwined that accountability is a real problem.

In truth, since and before devolution, Scottish and central government has habitually managed its own expenditure by forcing local government to take on Scottish and central government responsibilities. Consequently, many Scottish Councils have had to raise Council tax year after year to cope with these increased financial pressures.

It is this deep-seated dilemma that must be dealt with if any logical system for local government finances is to be created. The functions and finances of local government must be divorced from those of the Scottish and central Governments.

One could argue that the problem is not Council Tax per se but much more fundamental and deep-rooted problems. If LIT is introduced then it must also be done in such a way that these issues are addressed as well.
171

Alan B,

26/11/2008 12:22:02
#PaulW

Moving to fiscal autonomy first also makes sense. It would also allow a more mature discussion about independence.

Unfortunately I cannot see it being delivered. For a start it is incompatible with Browns career ambitions. If he delivered fiscal autonomy it would be difficult for him to carry on as prime minister unless major constitutional change also took place to allow england some sort of parliament or ban on scottish mps voting on english matters.

172

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 26/11/2008 12:29:03
222 Alan B
Personally I think Scotland would probably get more fiscal autonomy from a Tory govt than a Labour one. A Labour govt would be too dependent on the votes of Scottish MPs to carry out their measures.

It is interesting that the Taxpayers Alliance (if not actually Tory then Tory inclined) made a submission to the Calman Commission. They are all in favour of more fiscal autonomy for Scotland even if it means allowing the bulk of oil and gas revenues to be allocated.
173

Alan B,

26/11/2008 12:31:11
#The Federalist

Cannot see a local sales tax as being workable.

Would far rather keep property tax. Reduce it considerably. Remove pensioners from the equation. (alhtough as a side issue pension age should be moved to 70 with part time working optional after 60). It is hard enough to save for a pension without having to pay this tax. Tax when we work not when we retire is my belief.

Remove national spending from councils so councils are not just implementing policies of national government. Councils should be free to do what they want within their area of competency.

That would mean removing say education and social services etc. And some policing.

A revamp of councils so that glasgow was a greater glasgow including the suburbs with a directly elected major for out major cities.

Councils should be raising their own money themselves and not dependend on central government funding them and then forcing them to implement policies they would not otherwise implement. Central government funding so much of council budgets is also open to abuse with central government favouring their own areas.
174

Millerman1,

26/11/2008 12:38:44
I thought it could not get any worse for the protest vote party called the snp.

I predicted that LIT would be a disaster, seems i am right again, business leaders say they are worried sick about LIT and yes they are right to be.

The snp are finished they had token power once through Labours worst time in history and even then only made it.

Glenrothes! Glenrothes! Glenrothes! lol.
175

Alan B,

26/11/2008 12:40:07
#Ugly George

One reason I wanted David Davis to beat Cameron was that Davis supported fiscal autonomy for Scotland.

There are some within the scottish tories who would support more fiscal autonomy I agree. But others who probably still resent the scottish parliament existing and would like it removed.

There is possibly a split in the scottish tories of those that are tories for economic reasons and would support fiscal autonomy and those that are died in the wool unionists who want centralised westminster rule. Ironically it is that centralisation that is causing much of the drivers for independence.

The tories in scotland would get alot more credibility if they could evolve and support fiscal autonomy. But McLetchie and to some degree Goldie are conservative with a small "c" and did not want to rock the boat.

Goldie is an excellent leader of a party but she does lack economic credibility and there is no counter weight to drive an economic strategy. Waiting to see what Calman reports is a cop out. A political party must know and believe the general direction of how they want scotland fiscally managed.

Who knows what Cameron believes. Cannot believe Osbourne has seriously considered scotlands fiscal position.
176

Ugly George,

26/11/2008 12:40:39
224 Alan B
"Tax when we work not when we retire is my belief."

I find it difficult to agree with that. Some retired people are extremely wealthy. Isn't fred Goodwin getting a pension of £500,000 pa with (no doubt) other investment income.

I would much rather tax people in his situation than people who are working hard and striving to further their careers or businesses.
177

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26/11/2008 12:42:12
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Calum Crubag,

26/11/2008 12:44:47
I'd be better off but then again i'm not a millionaire. Tories defeding the rich? I thought that was Labour's job these days?
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26/11/2008 12:45:31
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 26/11/2008 12:46:33
195 Glenrothes is but a distant memory for most posters. When it comes to ''tax bombshells'' local income tax is but a puddle compared to the giant tsumani which may be about to engulf us all.

You think Labour's worst time in history is behind us ?

Your panglossian optimism is sweet, but unfounded.
181

twinkles,

26/11/2008 12:48:52
good news.

Less money going into the government is always good.
182

Ugly George,

26/11/2008 12:50:49
197 Alan B
I think you are right. The Tories have not made their mind up on this issue but they may well soon have to. I think that there is an opportunity for them that they may take. If we consider the other devolved admins, (NI and Wales) one can see benefits for them. According to a study by Oxford Economics, NI and Wales combined receive about £16bn more in funding than they pay in taxes. That was in 2007/08 so the amount is bound to shoot up in the recession to well over £20bn.

The Tories could give greater fiscal autonomy to all the devolved govts and say that if they want the services they receive (Wales has free prescriptions etc) then they have the power and responsibilty to do raise the taxes to pay for it. This may not go down well in Wales or NI but the Tories have very little to lose electorally.

The money saved could give them the breathing space to cut taxes which is what they would like to do but feel hamstrung by the current state of the economy.
183

R_K_C,

26/11/2008 12:53:46
North Sea oil and gas production forecasts from the official industry body. Take a look and tell me if you still think it's a good idea to seek fiscal autonomy based on the assumption of healthy oil surpluses. N.B. I am talking about the medium to long term future - a nation with aspirations of independence needs to look beyond just the next couple of years.

http://www.ukooa.co.uk/issues/economic/econ08/main/needs-3.cfm
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26/11/2008 12:54:04
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Alan B,

26/11/2008 12:54:33
#Ugly George

I understand what you say for the super wealthy but I am talking about 90% of us.

Remember there is still income tax etc to tax pensioners, i am talking about a property based tax.

When most people retire there income will drop considerably. I think it is wrong to force them to consider moving home where they have lived for yrs and built links within the community because of the valuation of their house.

I am 39 and the only thing that I worry about financially is retiral. It is the only thing that is very difficult to prepare for. Putting money into money purchased schemes and shares dive. Put money into banks and see what has happened recently and the fear it caused with older people not knowing if their life time savings that they live on were safe.

To retire a 60 and prepare to have enough money till 80 say 15G a year requires savings of 300G (putting aside inflation). If that is taxed and then you lose say 3G on council tax you have not much left. 20G a yr would need 400G. If your wife take time of to look after the kids or works part time and is not contributing so much for her own pension then you have to look at putting away maybe 400G for her. Alot of money.

By reducing fixed property charges that are not linked to disposable income you make an already very difficult task of saving for retiral that we bit easier.

(The days of rapidly increasing house prices and notional wealth as a source of funds by remortgaging the house are possibly in the past now.)


I suppose i am looking at it from my own point of view where i would rather pay when i am working and able than having to pay when i will not be able to work my way out of any financial problems.
186

Millerman1,

26/11/2008 12:55:31
199#

Hello Melanthios?
187

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 26/11/2008 13:00:05
208 Sam are you having a nervous breakdown (again)?
188

Alan B,

26/11/2008 13:03:55
#sm753

The reason our media are not interested in so much that happens in the outside world is due to their parochial nature along with general dumming down celebrity culture.
189

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2008 13:07:16
#215 John Swinney himself backed the initial report (http://www.snp.org/node/13817) so I assume he backed the assumptions as well. They used the exact same analytical tools and assumptions for the revised figures - only the oil price figure was altered.

The £4.4 billion surplus is based on an 82.5% share of North Sea Oil revenues. With 95% of North Sea Oil revenues this rises to a surplus of £6.2 billion. With oil at $75 a barrel the surplus is only £200m based on the 95% share.

With Brent Crude trading at $48.75 this morning then clearly if this figure were put into the Grant Thornton model then, even with 95% oil revenues, a deficit would be created. I know that some will argue that the present price is low and they would be correct. However, oil is not going to be allowed to rise to an unsustainable level for a prolonged period either. OPEC's target price is $70 to $90 a barrel - clearly the Scottish economy at that sort of level, with the present expenditure and taxation policies, is not going to create the sort of surpluses required to build up an oil fund.

Scotland's main problem is its structural deficit due in particular to the high reliance on the public sector. Moreover, the Scottish oil industry is not structured like the Norwegians, who still have a 64% share in the part-privatised Statoil. Unless a post-independence government tackles the structural deficit and/or reorganises the oil industry then any hopes of achieving an oil fund on par with Norway's is fanciful to say the least.
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26/11/2008 13:08:17
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Ugly George,

26/11/2008 13:09:19
206 R_K_C
You are quite right. This year will be good for oil revenues because of the spike in prices in the summer. However with production falling at 7-9% per year, costs rising and investment falling the picture 5-10 years down the line is not great.

This will mean that revenues will only be significant if the price of oil shoots up and stays at high levels for a prolonged period. But such a scenario would be bad for the world economy in general and cause other problems. People in Scotland will still have jobs that depend on trade with other places and would have to pay the high costs involved in transport.

The Scottish economy needs to strengthen in other areas and cannot prosper in the long term with high oil prices acting as some kind of viagra.
192

Miss H,

26/11/2008 13:15:48
207 The argument for fiscal autonomy and independence is not based on oil or any other short term commodity.

It is based simply on the belief that the Scottish Parliament will make a better job of governing Scotland, getting the most out of our natural resources and managing the Scottish economy than Westminster will.

You may disagree with that – by definition every unionist disagrees with that but they very rarely explain why.


193

Alan B,

26/11/2008 13:17:26
#Ugly George

One good argument for an oil fund is that scotland would have to live within its economic means and not rely on oil to run the general economy.

Scotland could then use the interest accumulated on the oil fund for day to day spending purposes.
194

Miss H,

26/11/2008 13:21:07
217 You repeat the argument that Scotland's economy does not perform well due to a large public sector.

Have you ever contemplated the fact that it is the private sector that has the problem? That the Scottish economy under-performs because the Scottish government has very limited means to create and maintain the conditions for economic competitiveness and because economic policy is set by London and is decided (quite rightly) on the basis of what is best for the economy of the south east and not the economy of Scotland.

I say quite rightly because it is right that economic policy focuses on supporting the engine of the UK economy which is the city of London and the south east.

But by definition that means that Scotland is an after-thought which explains a lot don’t you think?

195

The Dark Side,

26/11/2008 13:21:13
#223 Prof: just what this site needs: another multi moniker troll. Have you ever met a mature student with poor grammar who posts under a spookie moniker?
196

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 26/11/2008 13:22:05
213 Professor MacBonacord
You have to look at these regional figures in perspective. Many people work in London but live in other parts of the south east - Kent, Sussex etc.

They are paid in London but use public services (schools, hospitals, GPs etc where they live). So to get an accurate picture you have to take London and the South East combined. If you average London and the South east you get a very different picture.

"The Scots also get more than their fair share, but not by so much so take in Scottish oil then the Scots will be in surplus."

All analysis done by CPPR at Glasgow Uni., Oxford Economics, The Taxpayers Alliance and the Scottish Govt themselves shows that your assertion is incorrect.


197

Millerman1,

26/11/2008 13:22:10
See LA is posting and at her old games, oh well she does not learn.

Here goes Herald mark 2
198

Alan B,

26/11/2008 13:22:21
#Miss H

Not all unionists are against fiscal autonomy. The lib dems are pretty close to that position. Some within the tory party would move there. Even Wendy was an advocate of much more fiscal devolution.

The real sticking point is Brown and scotlands london labour. This whole argument has exposed that so many in labour do not actually support devolution and the concepts behind it. It exposes that devolution for many was not about improved scottish governance and democracy but about trying to stop independence.

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26/11/2008 13:24:13
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200

English flag,

26/11/2008 13:25:19
If anyone thinks that independence for Scotland is still up and running,think again,because of the financial situation we find ourselves in 42% of those who would of voted for an independent Scotland say they will stick to the union,34% are don't knows and only 24% say it makes no difference they will still vote for independence.
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Publius,

London 26/11/2008 13:27:21
221 Miss H

Unionists don't have to explain why they are unionists. It is nationalists who want to upset the status quo. To succeed nationalists have to say why and to convince a majority of the Scottish people. So far they have failed to so do...and it highly unlikely they will in the near future.
202

PaulW,

Borders 26/11/2008 13:29:28

#207 R K C

The report you linked to does nothing to suggest anything other than a tightening of the oil market as production falls and increased prices per barrel of oil (most of which is in Scotland's waters). The real crisis is in supply of gas, most of which is actually in English waters. Actually, the unit price of both is likely to go up - bad news for the consumer, obviously, but also suggests that the decline in revenues, especially if Scotland were to work more sensitively to the needs of the sector, need not be as steep as declining production levels. I would trust Scotland to better manage this resource than the UK Govt - which always puts short-term before long-term interests.

The UK oil sector(of which 85% or so is in Scotland's waters)produced 1.636 million barrels of oil a day in 2006/07 and was almost self-sufficient in oil in that year. The hotly disputed land of Iraq produced just 2.093 million barrels. I think it is commonly acknowledged that the US and UK really went to war over that with Saddam, to secure oil for the future. Is it any wonder the Uk doesn't want to lose access to its own oil producing region on its doorstep.

I seem to recall the BBC having a documentary showing that Scotland's oil sector may have at least 25 billion to 30 billion barrels left to extract (see below). The Forties field is still producing after 33 years of production, as technology makes reserves easier to extract.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7435016.stm

I for one will not be convinced by the spin that oil has no future. It is nonsense.
203

Alan B,

26/11/2008 13:29:55
#Miss H

I think we all know it is the lack of a thriving private sector that is the problem in scotland.

I think the argument that UG puts forward that "Scotland's economy does not perform well due to a large public sector" is an economic theory based on crowding out. ie an economy with too large a public sector crowds out the private sector.

I do not really think that theory is appropriate to scotland. It is a theory generally where taxation is high to pay for that public sector and the argument is to some extent the high taxation to pay for a big public sector crowds out the private sector.

Where i think the large public sector is damaging to scotland is the culture that brings to the scottish economy.

But i agree with your main assertion that it is important to have the economic tools at our disposal to try to transform scotlands poor economic growth. I think we all know neither the tories or labour at westminster will do anything to address scotland problems.
204

Brian S,

Edinburgh 26/11/2008 13:30:17
I only come on here now to read the verbal drivel the likes of Rufus spurts. I cheers up what would be a rather dull lunch hour.

Keep waiving that red flag Rufus.
205

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26/11/2008 13:30:20
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Alan B,

26/11/2008 13:35:00
#Publius

Cannot understand your logic. Surely both sides in any debate have to put forward logical reasons why we the public should support them.

In economic terms the nats need to convince scotland we would be better of independent.

But the unionist parties also have to explain why scotland would be better of in the union particularly when scotland has done so poorly within that union over the last 40yrs.

Furthermore with the whole constitutional debate up in the air with Calman meant to be looking at scotland fiscal position then it makes sense that we should have a proper debate round the area of fiscal devolution and our poor economic performance.

207

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 26/11/2008 13:35:26
231 The current financial predicament is no impediment to nationalism. The principle underlying dissolving the union is the same regardless of extraneous factors such as oil, fiscal deficit etcetera. If Unionists claim that Scotland cannot be independent in specific circunmstances, they are actually saying the UK cannot be independent in specific circumstances, and we should look for someone to surrender to.

Whether we will be richer or poorer independently is arguable, but to say that we cannot be independent because of a failed UK banking system is a logical fallacy.
208

Alan B,

26/11/2008 13:40:59
"Whether we will be richer or poorer independently is arguable"

The most probable result over the medium term would be scotland as a country would be richer with more and better jobs but the government would be poorer with less taxation at its disposal. Off course the fiscal side could be propped up by oil and allow scotland to transform its economic performance to generate more taxation revenues.

The other curve ball when looking at fiscal deficits is the unbelievable debt and deficits that Brown is acruing for the whole UK. We have paid for expensive wars and the global economy is now not as rosey as before.
209

English flag,

26/11/2008 13:41:53
232. Jakie, you seem to forget scotland as well as the rest of the UK has a trillion pounds of debt,scotland is going nowhere for the forseeable future.
210

The Master,

26/11/2008 13:42:14
#235 Publius: if the nationalists really had a good reason for breaking up what they love to refer to as "the union" then they'd reform the SNP as a pressure group and not try to tag their unpopular separatist agenda onto a myriad of superficially populist non independence related policies.

Is the Master right or is he right!
211

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 26/11/2008 13:44:06
237 Alan B
"Where i think the large public sector is damaging to Scotland is the culture that brings to the scottish economy."

That is part of what I was saying is one of the problems with a large public sector. Analysts who have looke at the problem of Scotland's comparatively low rate of growth have stated many time that the level of business start ups is low in Scotland.

For some reason people in Scotland feel less willing to take on the risk and effort involved in doing this. Scottish Enterprise or whatever it was called before have tried to solve this problem with schemes for grants etc but their measures do not seem to have worked.

I feel that too many able and talented people settle for the option of a public sector job.
212

R_K_C,

26/11/2008 13:51:43
#236 Oil has a future, but in the medium term it will of limited scope and certainly will not be the source of huge wealth as the SNP's literature would suggest. You can apply technology to improve the yields of aging fields, you can use technology to extract oil from fields that would have been inaccessible ten years ago, but all this comes at cost, as does new exploration, which will generally be in smaller and harder to reach fields. That is important, because oil company income tax (a large element of government oil revenues) is dependent on profitability, not just gross value of offtake.

Also remember that a significant of the estimated 20 -30 billion barrels may never be extract. The North Sea has some of the highest production costs in the world and some of these fields will be too small or too difficult to produce from under any realistic economic scenario.

I for one would like to hear about some of the SNP's other proposals that they would use to turn Scotland into an economic powerhouse. There is lots of enticing language and allusions to other successful small nations, but very little on how we would acheive that success, beyond pinning out hopes on a massive tax windfall from the North Sea that I personally can't see being sustainable beyond the short term.
213

English flag,

26/11/2008 13:54:04
250. Jakie, you can be like who ever you wish,but to compare yourself to Greenland! I fear your standards are droping some what.
214

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 26/11/2008 13:54:36
245 Alan B
"The most probable result over the medium term would be scotland as a country would be richer with more and better jobs but the government would be poorer with less taxation at its disposal"

Surely this would depend on what type of govt. they elect. People in Scotland have tended to vote for left of centre parties for decades. How do we know that in 10 years time a party with this type of agenda won't succeed. The worry I have is that you seem to assume that the party in power will follow the policies you would like to see.
215

Alan B,

26/11/2008 13:55:53
#Ugly George

Part of the problem with the public sector in scotland is it is not a revolving door. When you are in most stay in. Pensions tend to tie people in.

The problem with risk in scotland is cultural. And that is part of the problem with running our economy from london. They do not understand and appreciate the different culture. A culture of safety and too some extent fear.

Mass unemployment in the 80s did not help. It fostered a culture of you are lucky to have a job.

Low home ownership was also said to be an issue. As you had no asset to borrow against for investment.

I also think it is alot to do with skills aswell. It is far easier to start a business if you have worked in that industrial sector.

Labour in the 80s also helped foster a culture in scotland that business and the private sector was evil and all about greed.

It is diffcult but we really need to foster a culture of business and the aspiration to run your own business.

But again labour have done the reverse by undermining small business with various measures, whether it is changes to taxation or regulations.

It was interesting a few yrs ago when the government in scotland were shown to be undermining small business in scotland by not allowing them to bid for government contracts. Favouring big companies not breaking down contracts into smaller components. Do not know if much has changed. Nicol Stephens accepted the report as enterprise minister (i believe) but labour the primary partner dismissed it.





216

,

26/11/2008 13:57:47
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217

New Town Resident,

26/11/2008 14:04:20
#242. Alan B.

Well at least RBS shareholders have got £2.7BN over the odds today from the union government today! And on top of that we've got lower interest rates than the Euro, whereas you have argued in the past that we should join the Euro to get lower interest rates in Scotland comapered with the pound.

Personally I think both are pretty silly policy consequences by the way. Seem to remember reading how the Economic Warfare department set up by Churchill advocated the best use of Bomber Command was to drop paper money all over Germany during the war to wreck their economy.
218

Alan B,

26/11/2008 14:05:21
#Ugly George

"The worry I have is that you seem to assume that the party in power will follow the policies you would like to see."

Doubt it I am much more your low tax and pro business believer.

Yes i know it depends on alot of factors. What i was suggesting though is. One our slow economic growth probably would improve. But our fiscal side ie tax revenues would not be as good as now.

Why would economic growth be faster:
1)could it be slower
2)the economy in scotland would hopefully be centre stage in an election. Governments like McConnells would simply not be able to ignore the economy.
3)the discipline of running a real economy with the tools of power would force the government to deliver or be kicked out.
4)government would be encouraged to set a strategy for the scottish economy with fiscal policies to match.
5)hopefully we could move away from the tradional suffocating interest rates of sterling with a move to the euro. That in inself would improve scotland growth.

Part of the reason for slow economic growth in scotland is interest rates have been set at too high a level for the scottish economy. If the economy can growth a 2.5% without ingniting inflation then you would set interest rates for that level. What we have had it interest rates set for the south east inflation that suffocated north britsh growth. While i realise using the euro would not give us the idea interest rates of a scottish currency i think the interest rates are sufficiently inline with scotlands economic needs to mean that the other advantages of the euro outweigh a scottish currency.
219

Doh,

26/11/2008 14:06:13

TORY TAX BOMBSHELL

Tory spokesman confirmed that they expected people to pay same amount of council tax regardless of the fact that their income had gone down or they had lost their job.

The Tory spokesman said, "taxes should not be based on the ability to pay or you would have the ludicrous situation where a millionaire would be paying more than an ordinary middle class family".

He went on to confirm that George Osbourne does not pal around with fat cats and oligarchs.
220

Alan B,

26/11/2008 14:07:19
#New Town Resident

If you look over the pat 30yrs interest rates have almost alway been higher for sterling than euro or DM rates. Largely due to the housing market.
221

New Town Resident,

26/11/2008 14:08:26
#261. Just for the record Greenland wants full independence to get away from all EU regulations, esp. with regard to fishing and potential development of natural resources. Whereas the SNP wants to fully embrace the EU.
222

PaulW,

Ayton 26/11/2008 14:10:20
#249

How about you actually refer to the article itself which stated that (for Greenland):

"In 2007, the territory received subsidies of 3.2 billion kroner ($829.8 million) from Denmark, or about 30 per cent of its gross domestic product."

Where does that anywhere say 50%? £0% is not sustainable, but why the need for exaggeration from you? perhaps we should be used to it by now (and from Rufus etc.)

Given that for 2006/07 scotland had a negative fiscal balance of just £2.7 billion (2.1 per cent of GDP), assuming a geographic share of oil and, at worst, was £10.2 billion (9.7% of non-oil GDP) if no oil revenues were assumed. Somewhat different from greenland, even you would have to agree.
223

Alan B,

26/11/2008 14:10:27
#New Town Resident

Increasing the money supply by dropping cash would no longer be effective :). Most of the money supply is now made up of credit. The openness and nature of the global economy mean that there is not a direct relationship between the money supply and inflation.

As such I cannot see labour proposals being that inflationary.

224

New Town Resident,

26/11/2008 14:10:57
~265. Yes indeed. I was just noting today must be a happy day for you what with all the RBS dosh and the below Euro interest rates. Naturally it does not fully offset 30 years of accumulated wrong in your eyes. Bit like AGW, when does weather become climate?
225

Alan B,

26/11/2008 14:19:55
#New Town Resident

Why would I be happy that shareholders get bailed out by the government. I have previously said I think hbos shareholders should get diddly squat. The only people I would want the government to bail out are depositors and safeguard jobs.

"Naturally it does not fully offset 30 years of accumulated wrong in your eyes."

It is not about 30yrs of wrong. For a start the euro has only existed since the late 90s. It is about judging the best way forward for the economy and how the economy should be managed.

I have previously said the best option for scotland would be if the whole uk were to join the euro but we would have to be careful with regard to the rate we joined. ie not ego memebership as per the erm when we joined at DM2:95 when it should have been more like DM2:50.

The other problem regarding sterling interest rates were related to miras. Miras subsidised credit. We used interest rates to control credit ie growth of the money supply and hence pushed up sterling by having artificially high interest rates.

Part of the uk problem in the 80s and 90s was interest rates in the south needed to be higher to control inflation. And lower in the north to foster growth. For interest rates to really work in the uk we needed to deal with the structural problem of north south divide economic performance. By the 80s regional policy and its perceived failures has put paid to any attempt to rectify this situation.
226

Alan B,

26/11/2008 14:24:09
#New Town Resident

What i would like to see now is an official scottish inflation rate. Only by having that can we really make a judgement about what the real rate of interest rates should be for the scottish economy.

Not publishing scotlands inflation rate is political. Do so and then you give oxygen to people like me who will use the inappropriateness of sterling interest rates for the scottish economy.
227

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2008 14:24:46
#221 - Miss H

Crowding out is an acknowledged observable fact and international evidence states that the size of the public sector, public sector output and public sector investment all affect private sector investment and activity. The evidence available seems to show that Scotland does not suffer from fiscal/public finance crowding out ie it does not require an increase in taxation revenue to fund expenditure within Scotland. There appears instead to be resource crowding out due to large scale public sector investments particularly at the upper wage level of the labour market and in the construction sector.

Although there is evidence of resource crowding out, reducing investment and growth, I am not saying that this should lead to a decrease in public sector expenditure and employment. There is always a trade-off between public sector activity and private sector growth. What I believe needs to happen is that the Scottish government needs to improve long-term economic growth. In the long-run public expenditure as a %of Scottish GDP in Scotland could then be lowered. It is therefore important to make sure that public expenditure is as productive as possible. This means trying to make efficiency gains where possible and by engaging the private sector where it can be shown the private sector delivers the service more effectively.

Although the Framework for Economic Development in Scotland creates a structure for the public sector to support the private sector it does not actually involve any sort of substantive action. We have nothing like Ireland’s National Development Plan. Ireland's NDP is a logical and lasting plan to assist in the financing of large infrastructure projects and is quite clear in what the priorities should be for investing in physical and human capital. Most importantly, the NDP makes clear what the specific priorities for economic growth should be.

Without a commitment to planning for long-term growth, a post-independence S
228

Alan B,

26/11/2008 14:29:10
#The Federalist

"This means trying to make efficiency gains where possible and by engaging the private sector where it can be shown the private sector delivers the service more effectively. "

I do not know how you can call yourself a socialist :). I tend to agree with much you say and as such find your claim to be a socialist abit misfitting.

229

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2008 14:29:36
#278 (continued)

Without a commitment to planning for long-term growth, a post-independence Scottish government would find itself under pressure to reduce public sector expenditure. It would have difficulty in justifying continued increased public sector expenditure and may end up cutting expenditure where it should not be cut.
230

Rufus T. Firefly,

26/11/2008 14:32:58
GREENLAND?

EH?

So GREENLAND is the new Arc of Prosperity for which we have to aspire to?

Superb.
231

Alan B,

26/11/2008 14:34:06
#The Federalist

With Brown saving the world economy and everyone being so grateful should we not build a tourist industry round a museum of Gordon Brown. Not need to commission a wax work dummy he is dummy enough and can just attend in person. Alister Darling could be marketed as our own commical Ally.
232

Rufus T. Firefly,

26/11/2008 14:34:32
So Jakie Priest, how do they fund local services in GREENLAND?

Is it income tax based or do people pay according to the value of their Igloos?
233

Rufus T. Firefly,

26/11/2008 14:37:50
Hey Jakie, Who is the patron saint of GREENLAND?

Erik the Red?

Do they have a national holiday on Erik the Red day?
234

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2008 14:38:04
#281 Alan we have had this discussion before - it's the old "one man's socialist is another's social democrat" sort of argument - pretty meaningless.

The division between democratic socialist and state socialists is not just in terms of a revolutionary/reformist divide but also a democratic/authoritarian divide. Democratic socialists believe in an anti-authoritarian "socialism from below" where the population as a whole, and workers in particular, have an active participation in the management of economy.

The old Labour Party did to some extent try to stick to this democratic socialist tradition, established by the likes of the Independent Labour Party. NuLabour on the other hand displays all the centralising tendencies of traditional social democracy.
235

Alan B,

26/11/2008 14:38:44
#Rufus

Do you get a discount if the Igloo melts?
236

Rufus T. Firefly,

26/11/2008 14:39:51
"291 Jakie Priest,26/11/2008 14:36:35
#289

Nice racist slant, Rufus."

Is that the best you can do Jakie, invent charges of racism over an Igloo joke?

What an idiot.
237

Alan B,

26/11/2008 14:42:30
#Rufus

So is your argument that Greenland should not go independent as global warming will undermine the tax base of the country as Igloos melt.
238

PaulW,

Borders 26/11/2008 14:43:14
Alan B

I agree with you on the inflation data issue and the interest rate differential from Uk that we need.

I would also like to see data for Scotland's GNI, and those for other UK countries, which would be interesting, I suspect. Scotland would not be too shabby at all......






239

Rufus T. Firefly,

26/11/2008 14:44:30
Sm753, at least the Greenlanders (if that is what they are called), can rely on a robust timber exporting industry to see them through.

240

New Town Resident,

26/11/2008 14:45:59
#289. Rufus. It just shows how little you really know about Greenland if you have to ask such basic questions. Greenland is half the size of the EU so naturally the financing and provision of local services varies from place to place depending on local circumstances, a sound principle already advocated here by the Scottish Liberal Democrats. For example where a population centre numbers one or less they adopt a holistic approach.
241

Rufus T. Firefly,

26/11/2008 14:46:35
Hey Donnie Murdo,Western Isles, do you still think that the RBS is the second biggest bank in the EU, and the 5th biggest in the world?

You seemed to disappear yesterday when I told you that your Bloomberg link was a load of dross.
242

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 26/11/2008 14:48:22
The recession has now killed off the LIT.

Arguments between Unionists and Nationalists about the affect such a tax would have on Scotland and its economic future are neither here nor there?

According to a variety of think tanks, during the coming recession many English Regions will be less well prepared to weather the economic storm, and suffer even worse than Scotland!

243

English flag,

26/11/2008 15:17:46
Jakie Priest. with the greatest respect, if you go on the route that you have in mind,you will need a "priest" for Scotlands last rights!
244

Miss H,

26/11/2008 15:20:09
235 Publius. Again you seem to miss the core point of the debate.

The status quo of the Union came to an end in 1999 with the election of a Scottish Parliament and the establishment of a Scottish Government (or Executive if you prefer).

We have a Parliament like other countries but which can only legislate on some matters but not others – which can essentially spend money but not raise it – and a Government which is likewise responsible for spending money but not raising it.

That situation is inherently unstable and unsustainable.

We can go forwards or we can go backwards but practically nobody (other than Jim Murphy perhaps) believes we can stay where we are.
245

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2008 15:21:07
#302 "For example where a population centre numbers one or less they adopt a holistic approach."

A population centre numbering less than one would be zero therefore not making it a population centre.
246

Alan B,

26/11/2008 15:27:56
#sm753

"The huskies have to yelp once for no, twice for yes."

is that not barking mad
247

,

26/11/2008 15:28:53
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248

Lianachan,

Highlands 26/11/2008 15:31:39
Meh. I'd gladly pay a bit more to live in an independent Scotland.

Good for Greenland for voting as they did, and good for Denmark for supporting it.

That's two makor obstacles to Scottish independence. There are still significant numbers of the population who would not vote for it - either staunch unionists, or those who say they favor independence but will refuse to jump when they run up to the fence.

The second major obstacle is that even if we do have our own say in our own destiny (which is what democracy should be all about), we'd be very unlikely to receive from London the kind of backing that Denmark is affording Greenland.
249

Alan B,

26/11/2008 15:36:43
#sm753

US states have control over alot of taxation and having state income and sales taxes.

States in the US have far more autonomy than scotland.

250

Son of one of Stirlings finest,

26/11/2008 15:40:10
Rufus T Firefly,

Hello Rufus, enjoyed reading your comments, looks like you are on good form today.
251

cataibh,

Over the Struie 26/11/2008 15:44:58
With the parent company of the scotsman going down the Swanny how long will it be before this rag goes to the wall.
252

Lianachan,

Highlands 26/11/2008 15:45:16
#317 Any need to be so insulting? All that you can tell from that statement is the depth of my desire for independence, and that it's something I'm prepared to pay extra for. Snide innuendo about my intellectual abilities are entirely unjustified, and speak voluems about your own attitudes.
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Alan B,

26/11/2008 15:45:19
#sm753

The current devolution settlement is a mess. Labour fudged and confused too many powers. If devolution is too work you need clear lines of responsibility.

Part of the problem with the current mess is that it relies on goodwill from both government to work with each other. Can anyone see labour in scotland working with the tories in london. And we can see that labour in london will not work with the snp in scotland incase that feeds oxygen to the snp in their desire for independence.

We can see how silly the current situation is with even trivial things. Like labour letting the welsh exec call itself government and not the scottish despite the welsh assembly having no legislative powers.

The biggest problem with devolution is that labour did not really believe in the concept of devolution unlike say the lib dems and it was just to stop the nats. As such they are not willing to push forward the agenda that says that devolution means decisions are better taken at a lower level.

We can again see the problem with last yrs election. Labours own investigation into the mess concluded that the scottish parliament should run scottish elections. But we have the silliness of that being refused despite labour being unable to give any coherent reason for rejecting it.

The current fiscal situation is a mess. Few think Barnett is good either side of the border. The current arrangments encourage anti scottishness in england. While in scotland it does not give us control over the tools of economic management to address our poor growth that westminster is unwilling or unable to deal with.
254

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 26/11/2008 15:46:28
317 your post sums up your mentality very well too.

255

,

26/11/2008 15:46:48
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256

Alan B,

26/11/2008 15:46:51
#sm753

""Meh. I'd gladly pay a bit more to live in an independent Scotland."

Sums up your intellectual capacity then, doesn't it?"

So what is his intellectual capacity given that you previously have said you would support the union even if it made scotland poorer.

257

brownlie,

26/11/2008 15:47:55
315 Son of one of ....

You are either very sarcastic or very silly!
258

Alan B,

26/11/2008 15:47:56
#322 Hugh Roscombe

I think you have answered your own question.
259

The Master,

26/11/2008 15:51:21
#307 Mr H: " The status quo of the Union came to an end in 1999 with the election of a Scottish Parliament and the establishment of a Scottish Government (or Executive if you prefer)."

Excuse me, but how exactly has the status quo come to an end? Have you never heard of the doctrine of the sovereignty of parliament? Westminster remains supreme throughout the UK: the fact that it has voluntary chosen not to legislate on certain matters which have been devolved to the SP in no way negates this.

While we're on the subject, just how is the situation any more "unstable and unsustainable" than it was when the Scottish Office was charged with running devolved affairs? Constitutionally there is no difference. You're a strange kettle of fish, all you Scot Nats out there!
260

Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 26/11/2008 15:59:10
324# Brownlie, all things are subjective , if I feel disposed to congratulate a contributor I will do so, you may choose to disagree, that is your perogotive. I may be occasionaly silly, and I like most of us on these blogs I can be sarcastic, but my support for Rufus is and his spirited comments is sincere.
261

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 26/11/2008 16:01:00
It's a 100 years distant since Henry Ford brought motoring to the general public. The SNP's LIT - in effect a national income tax - seems a fair and effective means of paying for many local services. Folk live where they live, commute and travel about in their work and leisure time. We could argue endlessly and pointlessly about who's paying for what services where.

It's the job of our well-paid civil servants to make our government's policies work in a cost effective way, and to make adjustments as required, not to balk sensible progress.
262

Alan B,

26/11/2008 16:02:29
#The Master

I do not think the Scottish Office was particularly sustainable and that is why scotland got the scottish parliament. That is why the majority of people that vote in the 79 election voted for change but were denied because of the undemocractic rules of that referendum.

An example of the problem with the scottish office can be found if you look at education. The tories ran during the 80s on a concept that alevels were the gold standard. That was for english education. Scotland rejected the tories and the tories implemented a completely different set of educational policies in scotland despite being rejected by the electrate.

There was a such little democratic accountability in scotland pre devolution. We were only slightly better of that hong kong who was run by a westminster appointee and northern ireland who were in a similar democratic mess.

However with devolution we have a mess of an implmentation largely caused by a continuatin with the pre devolution fiscal arrangements. It does not take a genious to recognise that if you radically change the constitutional arrangements then it is very unlikely the fiscal arrangements pre that change will be adequate. Atleast pre devolution there was coordination over policy north and south that meant the fiscal arrangements pre devolution were workable. Now with differing governments in scotland to westmisnter it is a recipe for a mess. So it is no surprise that it has turned out that way.

263

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 26/11/2008 16:02:32
326 A nice red rag to a bull there. Sovereignty of Parliament. Te he he.
264

brownlie,

26/11/2008 16:03:12
327 Son of one ...

You have my sincere sympathy.
265

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 26/11/2008 16:04:48
331 do bear in mind ''son of'' is an old boy. If his dad was alive he'd be 106.
266

Alan B,

26/11/2008 16:04:52
sorry for so many typos
267

Lianachan,

Highlands 26/11/2008 16:10:06
#332 I was also referring to the "Meh" bit (which I believe is something from some cartoon).

"Meh" is now in the dictionary, and is a perfectly cromulent word. In case you are unfamiliar with it, it is a sign of indifference.

Would you care to respond to my post #319, or do you deal primarily in argumentum ad hominem?
268

The Master,

26/11/2008 16:21:06
#329 Alan B: we come at the question from very different angles. I completely fail to see how there can be said to have been a lack of democratic accountability pre devolution, given that the UK is, by any standards, a modern representative democracy.

#338: what is it with you today? Bring back AM2, if all the Scotsman's current inhouse poster can do is make noises like a sheep!
269

brownlie,

26/11/2008 16:21:35
338 sm753

It's not surprising you sound a bit sheepish after Alan decimated you at #323.
270

Miss H,

26/11/2008 16:23:50
312 I was going to say you are not comparing like with like – but of course you aren’t because there is no like.

If we had the financial powers of a state in the US That would be a big improvement. We would be well on the way to full fiscal autonomy. (We would also, of course, have managed to persuade the UK to adopt a federal structure).

So if you are making a case for ending the status quo in favour of a federal structure in the UK with Scotland to have the same legislative and economic powers as individual states in the USA then go for it. Best of British Luck. It’s not independence but it’s better than what we have now and so represents a form of progress.

Congratulations!
271

John south of Soutra,

26/11/2008 16:34:03
Given the state the economy is in, I cannot understand why this article was even printed, unless of course to deflect interest away for the main story
272

Alan B,

26/11/2008 16:36:33
#339 The Master

Because there were different system of government in england and in scotland. We had a different education system, bit of a different nhs etc.

The situation in NI was worse as they were banned from voting for the uk parties. As such they would vote for who they voted for and then be run by an appointee of the westminster government elected in mainland uk.

Democracy in the uk when we ran hong kong meant that we appointed someone run them. That is not what i call democracy. Off course we tried to democractise it just before handover.

But in scotland what democractic accountability did we have with Scottish education pre devolution. Scotland voted for one party. England who is much larger voted for another and as such the toried ruled the uk. Fine if you have one system but we had one government 2 systems.

So when the Munn and Dunning education reforms were brought in to scrap ogrades the tories who did it had no democractic mandate in scotland for it. People in England understanably voted for the educational policies of the tories in england.

Even take a trivial example like National parks. The tories voted in in england introduced them to england but refused to bring them in in scotland despite scotland voting for labour who supported them.

If we had consistent government with single systems for the whole uk eg education and legal systems etc then there would have been a very centralised but still understanable democractic accountability.

I think representative democracy is abit outdated now to some extent and certainly does not work the way it should in the uk. Unlike the US we do not see democratcs supporting republican and vice versa. There has been a big expansion of the executive over the past century and that allows government to give jobs to and control its mps. The whole whip system undermines representative democracy. However that is really another discussion.

273

Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 26/11/2008 16:43:43
331# Brownlie, Thanks for the sympathy, I have just had my tea and the wifes cooking does not get any better.
274

Tom R,

26/11/2008 16:52:13
#153 SM753

"Even Dennis Healey (the Chancellor) admitted the Scots had been deliberately deceived about the value of North Sea Oil by the Labour government."

Quotes and sources please.

The source is the Radio 4 program in the Winter 2006 "Document" series
275

Alan B,

26/11/2008 16:55:27
#344 sm753

Excuse me but that is what you have previously said.

But if you want to change your position that is fine. As such i will allow you to answer the question again.


The question is obviously hypothetical. So putting aside whether you think Scotland would be better of or not independent or in the union.

If the economic evidence meant that scotland would be better of independent would you still support the union if it meant scotland would be poorer?

YES/NO

276

The Master,

26/11/2008 16:58:00
#343 Alan B: I do take your point, as far as it goes. However, there's no reason why a democracy shouldn't choose to have different administrative systems in different areas of the country: this in no way negates democratic accountability.

#347 Stirling: what culinary delight did your good lady succeed in ruining, just out of interest?
277

The Master,

26/11/2008 17:00:34
#350: I can't speak for sm753, but I'd answer "yes" to your question without hesitation. You might as well ask a Nat if he'd still support separation if the economic evidence meant that Scotland would be better off: I know that Jackie Priest for one has said that he would.
278

The Master,

26/11/2008 17:01:32
Erratum: if the economic evidence meant that Scotland would be better off in "the union".
279

Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 26/11/2008 17:04:06
351# The Master, It was Salmon , with the consistency of cardboard, and Broccolli boiled to the point of disintegration.
280

Alan B,

26/11/2008 17:06:28
#352 The Master

I know you previously said the same and I understand it. And it is an honest answer.
281

Miss H,

26/11/2008 17:16:17
345 Germany is also a federal system.

Spain – don’t know that much about it but it seems more like the UK in that you have a more asymmetric kind of devolution. What is interesting to me is that most commentators seem to think the central government in Spain has dealt with demands for more autonomy by saying yeah OK and giving them more autonomy.

If the UK Govt did that they might - just - preserve the Union. But they are not. They are digging their heels in instead.
282

Alan B,

26/11/2008 17:17:00
#351 The Master

"However, there's no reason why a democracy shouldn't choose to have different administrative systems in different areas of the country"

I think you either have to have a single system with a single government or a devolved federal type system similar to Germany or Australia with clear lines of responsibility.

For me the scottish parliament was a step in the right direction but has created problems.

1)England did not want to devolved and create regional assemblies throughout England.
2)England currently have a democractic deficits that is just festering resentment. Any consitutional settlement must be seen to be fair by all component parts. However it would be difficult to sort out england democratic deficit without reform to the fiscal position ie barnett (which is where we came in).
3)Wales and NI have different levels of powers to scotland. As such the whole devolution arrangements are not even. Making it harder to solve the english democratic deficit.


Devolution was also about devolution of social spending and democratic accountability of that spending. In many ways devolution typical of labour. Labour are always more interested in spending wealth not creating wealth. As such there is not surporse they devolved spending of wealth not creating of wealth. To me that was not the main problem it was economic performance. We have not devolved the tools of economic management. Devolving the tools of economic management would remove the economic argument largely from the independence debate.

The other underlying problem with devolution is for it to work you have to really believe in it. For labour it was largely about stopping the nats and not improved scottish governance. I think we are starting to see the result.
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 17:17:55
From Times Online
November 26, 2008
Greenlanders vote 'yes' to self rule

Greenlanders have voted in favour of self-rule in a referendum that could pave the way for independence from Denmark.
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Alan B,

26/11/2008 17:22:22
#353 The Master

If I thought scotland would be economically better of within the union then i would support the continuation of the union but would want it reformed so that it was more federal and abit more devolved.

In much the way i support the EU. I do so because i think that is in scotland economic and national interest. ie support the euro and the single market and also like the freedom of movement of people to live and work anywhere within the EU. As such to some degree the EU has superceded the need for the UK union in my view. The only real agrument for me for some sort of union within the uk is over defence. And here i would prefer independence with some sort of defence union. I suppose that is what NATO is though.
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Alan B,

26/11/2008 17:27:06
#Union is ­Best

"which will mean a £50,000 tax bill for every family. "

If Brown brings in compulsory divorce then he will be able to half the tax bill for every family to only £25,000.
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26/11/2008 17:28:37
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Arfur,

26/11/2008 17:38:41
GARBAGE

Moddox - you get more pathetic by the day. You will soon be at the level of bile spitting nonsense as Mount Kimba and AM2 (or whatever he calls himself these days)
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Publius,

London 26/11/2008 17:39:03
#242 Alan B
#247 The Master
#307 Miss H

Just catching up with the board. I've been too busy this afternoon to read it, let alone respond to your replies to my post.

Alan B: You write "Cannot understand your logic. Surely both sides in any debate have to put forward logical reasons why we the public should support them."
The debate between nationalists and their opponents is not a debate. It is a series of assertions about what will or may happen if Scotland became independent. None of these assertions can be proved by logic. There are too many 'known unknowns' (e.g. policies pursued by independent Scotland, policies towards Scotland pursued by an independent England-and-Wales) and a whole host of 'unknown unknowns'. Just about the only near-certainty is that an independent England-and-Wales would adopt West European Time, leaving Scotland to stay an hour behind or follow suit.

The Master: Your ask "Is the Master right or is he right!" Answer: perhaps!

Miss H: You write that the present devolution arrangement is "inherently unstable and unsustainable". It is no more unstable than most other federal/devolved/centre-province political systems. In almost all of them there is permanent tension between centre and provinces/states/laender/ etc. The distribution of functions is subject to constant change, as is the balance of political power between them.
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Millerman1,

26/11/2008 17:40:02
I really do not know why the snp activists bother posting here, your party is finished and the LIT is not wanted by anyone be it the public or business, everyone would be worse of and in many cases much worse of.

The snp treat the good people of this part of the UK as idiots, how dare they.

Glenrothes was the end(as i predicted) for the snp, a clear message was sent to the snp and a beating of thousands and thousands of votes says it all, the people of Glenrothes spoke and said we love the Union.

Many of the snp activists gave up on the party and never posted again on the threads, all bar a few have changed their user names through either account deletes for abuse or just could not face the slaggings as many of them boasted that the snp would take Glenrothes by thousands, the snp got battered even when the Labour party was at its lowest in History, that says it all.

I love the people of Glenrothes!

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English flag,

26/11/2008 17:49:41
366. So do I,salmond had to be stopped,the people of Scotland deserve better he is nothing more than a arrogant,bitter individual who will do scotland and it's people no favours.
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Alan B,

26/11/2008 17:50:17
#Millerman1

While I can understand you supporting the union why support labour winning in Glenrothes when labour have run the uk economy into the ground and almost bankurpted the country with vast levels of debt. It is difficult to imagine how labour could have put the country in a worse position with their sheer economic incompetence.

So fair enough support the union but vote these labour cretins out. That and the labour party has just become so corrupt now.
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English flag,

26/11/2008 17:51:10
368. sicko!
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Alan B,

26/11/2008 17:51:34
#English flag

"than a arrogant,bitter individual who will do scotland and it's people no favours."

You obviously mean that moron Brown.
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Chum of Boris,

Henley on Thames 26/11/2008 17:55:01
Dear Mr George Laird
Thank you for your letter. I always thought that no-one of any intelligence has been found at Glasgow University since Adam Smith died. Your letter proves it.
I did once nearly make a friend in Glasgow. I was in a bar when a gentleman told me to go away and boil my head, you English sh.tehead. I took this to be a friendly greeting and offered to buy him a drink. When I left he was unconscious on the floor. UI believe he is now a nationalist MSP.
Toodle Pip
Chum of Boris
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 17:58:59
REFERENDUM BRINGS GREENLAND CLOSER TO INDEPENDENCE
Today, 11:13 | Reuters

COPENHAGEN, Nov 26 (Reuters) - In freezing weather in the middle of the polar night, Greenland overwhelmingly voted for self-governance from Denmark in a referendum on Tuesday, taking a big step toward eventual independence.

The vote was 75 percent in favour of self-governance, while 23.6 percent voted no, Greenland officials said. Turnout in the island, mostly shrouded in 24-hour darkness at this time of year, was 72 percent of about 39,000 eligible voters.

The Arctic island has had home rule since 1979 but under the new law it will control of its mineral and oil resources.

tinyurl.com/6krmtj
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Alan B,

26/11/2008 18:00:23
#Publius

You could say that about all politics and all governments and parties you vote for.

Voting for any party for government in an election is based on how you think they might perform.

You weigh up the evidence and come to some sort of conclusion on the best of the options.

Any polities on economic matters are best predictions on the likely hood of outcomes. You will never accurately know what will happen in the future.

As such independence is the same.

Looked at another way. You could say you look at the current situation and decide whether you think things should be better. If you do you try to change things and vote for change. If you think you are doing well and performing well then you vote to keep the status quo.

A decision say about the euro is about the likely hood of economic performance using that currency. Same with decisions over using the gold standard in the past, fixing or floating currencies and the erm.

As such inpendpence or the union is a debate to be had. But off course it is dependent on what is important to different individuals and what they think is the most likely outcome of events.
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the.ally ,

max. 26/11/2008 18:00:28
GugaII says, 'Another Unionist propaganda item from David MadDog.'

yes, that's about the size of it, another feeble attempt by the westminster machine to 'down' Scots, Scottish society, and Scotland.

Today has been very interesting;
So far Scotland is a nation of women-beaters, a nation of rapists, a nation that are ignorant of true democracy, a nation of imbeciles that need to be led by the hand to westminster, even though we have our own government making good tax policies, and, a nation of sexually infected society. Why don't our Scottish government do something about these national slanders? Obviously Scotland is none of these, these stat's are New Labour, and the westminster party's trying to smear Scots and Scottish society so as to indoctrinate Scots with the ideal that they're too bad to rule theirselves.
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26/11/2008 18:06:16
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 18:08:04
Revealed: Labour's £37bn stealth spending cuts

Institute for Fiscal Studies identifies slashed services and 45 per cent tax rate myth

By Sean O'Grady, Economics Editor
Wednesday, 26 November 2008

Stealth spending cuts by the Government will see £37bn slashed from frontline public services, according to analysis of the pre-Budget report by the respected Institute for Fiscal Studies. Meanwhile the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has forecast the UK economy will shrink more sharply than any other G7 country next year, in a "severe" downturn losing 1.1 per cent of GDP.

The IFS, in its new report, says the Treasury's planned 45p rate of tax for higher earners will raise "approximately nothing". In a withering verdict on Alistair Darling's proposals, the Institute's experts say average earners will be worse off after 2011 than they are now, contrary to ministers' claims. The IFS also dismisses the Chancellor's new "temporary operating rule", designed to replace the old fiscal rules, because it "doesn't really impose any restraints on borrowing".

tinyurl.com/6x9mmw
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26/11/2008 18:18:13
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26/11/2008 18:24:36
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 18:26:52
UK to be hardest hit - thinktank
Larry Elliott and Simon Bowers

The Guardian, Wednesday November 26 2008

Britain has been bracketed with Hungary, Iceland and Spain as one of the countries most affected by the global credit crunch and falling house prices, according to the west's leading economic thinktank.

"The downturn is expected to be severe in economies most vulnerable to the financial crisis or to sharp house price falls. These include Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Luxembourg, Spain, Turkey and the UK," it said in its economic outlook.

tinyurl.com/5f9a8c
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brownlie,

26/11/2008 18:28:52
363 Union is Best

Rubbish! Alan is far too intelligent to fit into the hut. More negativity is what we need. He is far too positive for my liking.
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the.ally ,

max. 26/11/2008 18:30:30
Sado, what about Dundee's day of terrible news?

In Scotland, Dundee has the highest # of STI's, highest teenage pregnancies, (also in Europe), highest domestic abuse, lowest thresh-hold for determining domestic abuse, highest amount of 'women-only days, highest unemployed, lowest re-populated town, and, of-course highest criminalisation of citizens.

A terrible day for the city of Discovery.
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English flag,

26/11/2008 18:32:54
376. Just goes to show what a thicko you really are,i am not now nor ever have been Rufus T firefly!
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the.ally ,

max. 26/11/2008 18:33:45
Sado, please try to cite ALL the post, not just a 'selected' piece that completely distorts the meaning of the post.

Just read the articles!
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English flag,

26/11/2008 18:34:38
375. As for your scottish democracy,salmond got into holyrood out of luck,not good management.
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 18:36:34
"Ministers privately admit the chances of the rescue package working are less than 50pc". The worry for Brown is that this doubt reflects continued uncertainty over both his leadership and the direction he's taking the party.

tinyurl.com/6o4htb
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brownlie,

26/11/2008 18:37:24
395 English flag

Quite right - Rufus likes to think that he has a sense of humour. You, on the other hand ......
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 18:38:41
398 sm753, 26/11/2008

So the UK has joined the "arc of insolvency".
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 18:39:44
This is who will pay for Brown's debt binge

tinyurl.com/6fgjpa

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the.ally ,

max. 26/11/2008 18:41:57
Sado;
cannae be bothered arguin' wi' ye t'day.

But Scotland will be independent; the fact that more and more Scots are coming on these forums and saying they want independence, and that onionists have been 'parachuted-in' from New Labour hq tells all Scots that we are closer than we've been for 300 years.
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 18:43:57
From The Times
November 26, 2008
British cost of Iraq and Afghanistan reaches £13bn

Michael Evans, Defence Editor

The sharply rising costs of the war in Afghanistan were laid bare yesterday when the Ministry of Defence said that it would need more than £2.3 billion from Treasury reserves to pay for the campaign in Helmand province this year.
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26/11/2008 18:44:27
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 18:46:02
From Times Online
November 26, 2008

Brown: We thought of raising VAT, but decided not

Nico Hines

Gordon Brown admitted today that he and Alistair Darling did consider an increase in VAT to 18.5 per cent as a possible way of plugging the gap in Britain's finances.
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26/11/2008 18:53:10
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 18:55:47
Consumer spending slumps to 13 year low

Consumer spending saw its sharpest decline for 13 years between July and September, official figures showed today.

Household spending fell 0.2% on the previous quarter, the biggest drop since the beginning of 1995, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

Overall national output fell 0.5% during the third quarter of 2008, unchanged from the ONS's first estimate in October.

Household spending also saw its first decline in successive quarters since 1992, as it fell 0.1% in the first three months of this year.

The figures come in the week Chancellor Alistair Darling unveiled attempts to get shoppers spending again with a temporary VAT cut.

The ONS said there were falls in the consumption of food, alcohol and tobacco - with big-ticket items such as furniture and furnishings and car purchases particularly hard-hit.

The spending downturn came as shoppers were faced with soaring inflation and falling house prices, while banks have also been hiking up the cost of borrowing in the credit crunch.

tinyurl.com/6nql78
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26/11/2008 18:55:48
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puskas,

East kilbride 26/11/2008 19:02:03
AM2 and Mariner still floating about...

Big names down under and North America as comedians..

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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 19:23:53
Give Gordo a call or drop him a wee note to express your gratitude for the fine job he is doing.

Gordon Brown
Email addresses:
House of Commons: birdc@parliament.uk
Contact numbers:
House of Commons (tel): 020 7219 6345
House of Commons (fax): 020 7219 5734
Constituency (tel): 01383 611702
Constituency (fax): 01383 611703
Addresses: Constituency: 318 High Street Cowdenbeath Fife KY4 9QJ
Residence: 10 Downing Street, London SW1 2AA.
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26/11/2008 19:28:23
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puskas,

East kilbride 26/11/2008 19:40:52
Democracy.. 20 elected reps. from each nation seems fine by me.. Undemocratic as it stands..

A cabinet created as equals.

Of course each nation will have its own parli. with reps ( MSP's ) .


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puskas,

East kilbride 26/11/2008 19:43:42
No 433 Ha Ha Like the seller..

The other was still out with his wee boat during the summer.. Nae company in the local boozer..
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puskas,

East kilbride 26/11/2008 19:48:22
Lord Foulkes and his merry band of eejits. Probably not on the minimal wage attempting to destroy threads as a pastime.
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26/11/2008 19:51:01
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Truely English,

26/11/2008 19:52:38
It is a real shock to come back to the UK and find things are not as good as they could be in the world of finance especially for the larger stores.

It must be doubly difficult in Scotland with the thought of even higher taxes for the people there.

At least our common heritage throughout Britain will give us some Festive Cheer next month and this will most likely help to save some of the thousands of jobs that are expected to be lost because of the present Governments poor management of the economy.

Roll on the Election so that we can get the Tories into power to save us from all this hurt in the years ahead of us.
Scotland will once again be grateful for all the assistance being provided by a Westminster Government rather than an Edinburgh one.

God Save the Queen.
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brownlie,

26/11/2008 19:54:14
429 Union is Blessed

It's a pity John Laurie has sadly departed. I can just see him doing the Budget Speech with Capt Mainwaring beside him, scowling and nodding. No wonder us unionists thrive on negativity and mediocrity with AM2's positive cheerfulness the only shining light in a sea of darkness.
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 19:56:18
God save the queen her fascist regime
It made you a moron a potential h bomb !

God save the queen she aint no human being
There is no future in englands dreaming

Dont be told what you want dont be told what you need
Theres no future no future no future for you

God save the queen we mean it man (God save window leen)
We love our queen God saves (God save... human beings)

God save the queen cos tourists are money
And our figurehead is not what she seems
Oh God save history God save your mad parade
Oh lord God have mercy all crimes are paid

When theres no future how can there be sin
Were the flowers in the dustbin
Were the poison in your human machine
Were the future your future

God save the queen we mean it man
There is no future in englands dreaming

No future for you no future for me
No future no future for you

Sex Pistols
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puskas,

East kilbride 26/11/2008 19:56:40
LIT will progress into reality to benefit Scots in a fair manner financially.

The minority Scottish Government led by Mr Alex Salmond, (First Minister of the Scots) shall with the help of the LibDems trounce any opposition when voted on in Holyrood..
England will be forced to follow the Scottish Parliements lead... Brown and the rest of his discredited Labour Party in government shall be dragged to the alter of LIT..
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26/11/2008 20:04:42
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puskas,

East kilbride 26/11/2008 20:06:13
No 440...

Taking money from tourism? No different than a prostitute in Soho or Downtown Bangkok.

Comparison could be made with some of our misguided so - called unionist posters.. Easy to submit but open for easy pickings..

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Shamus,

Glasgow 26/11/2008 20:10:40
This LIT is just the stupidity Scotland does not require. Do we want to see our best clever hard workers leave the country because they are being milked to pay for others that can easily afford their council tax. Our present system gives generous discounts to low earners.
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 20:17:22
Swinney at Holyrood today gutted and fried Darling's emergency budget. A incisive analysis delivered with statesmanlike aplomb. Well done Mr Swinney.

The BBC then gave Andy Kerr a platform to support Darling's cuts to the Scottish Block Grant. What a cringing wee toady he is.
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26/11/2008 20:25:16
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 20:25:38
443 puskas, East kilbride 26/11/2008 20:06:13

After independence will HRH Queen Elizabeth the First and Second remain as head of state?
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26/11/2008 20:27:32
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puskas,

East kilbride 26/11/2008 20:28:10
No444 Do you really believe that.

Another point.
Glasgow is already down by some £25,000,000 due to non-payers .?

Anyone supply the correct figure.

Lit paid at source no one shall escape.. Easier on the individual as direct debits in paying council tax will be a thing of the past..

Stocks shares etc. will be drawn into the equation in agreement to pass through Holyrood . A certainty .

It seems we have a few defaulters with Council Tax that post on these topics. I feel your pain LOL ..
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 20:34:05
452 sm753, 26/11/2008 20:21:39

You are an uncouth little fellow and nothing more than an apologist for your unionist masters. No doubt you welcome the cuts imposed by Darling and believe this will teach the ungrateful Scots a lesson in humility. Well lessons will be learned - but not the ones you imagine.
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26/11/2008 20:36:46
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 20:40:37
461 The Spook in Leith, 26/11/2008 20:38:10

Is it AM2's motor car ad?
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26/11/2008 20:41:24
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 20:43:30
Where is Churchill W.? Will he respond to the lurid allegations coming from Leadhills?
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puskas,

East kilbride 26/11/2008 20:43:38
No443 .. Hi Scunnert,

Personally I would prefer a Republic...

As you know we have a difficult situation in our country regards change, due to the indoctrination from England and our unionist opposition.
Many who would vote for independence but fear unionists are basically the Irish Celt offspring.

Therefore I would accept Queen Elizabeth and her entourage as Queen of Scotland as a means to win as many votes for Independence.
In time royalty will become an irrelevance in a modern futuristic Nation
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 20:46:21
465 puskas, East kilbride 26/11/2008 20:43:38

Agreed.
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26/11/2008 20:47:22
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 20:52:31
Westminster Representation;

England = 533 MWP's
Scotland = 59 MWP's

Democracy?
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Eve,

Scotland Bonnie Scotland 26/11/2008 20:53:50
#34 Ian G: Aye to right!!!

Shocking what the union has done to Scotland. Shocking the potential damage the union is doing on a yearly baises.

We're at huge risk of loseing our oldist bank and these baw bags at Westminster think it's good Idea and the only way.

I'd rather lose some or all the money (I very much dought it would be all or even much), I have in the Bank of Scotland than have Lloyds TSB thing go a head. Princibles are just worth so much more than abundance of cash.

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King O The Picts,

Helping Rufus T to the protologists 26/11/2008 20:54:02

Rufus if you remove you head from its present location, the air will be a lot fresher never mind the improvement to your breath.
You kind of miss the point by about 40 miles, you are trying to paint your own picture of what might happen in the future in an SNP led administration, mate what about the destruction your brittish masters have reaped on the Uk right now, the UK business model is so weak that the house of cards is now coming down.
The real point is If we go down or we go up Rufus old mate most of us will feel alot better with a Scot at the helm, rather than one of you wee brittains.
Its a lesson you need to learn, no-one wins all the time no-one looses all the time sometimes we are up sometimes we are down, thats life and economy, but if you really feel that Scots cant do that for themselves, your head is further up than even I give you credit for.
By the way please dont take the credit bit out of context
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Shamus,

Glasgow 26/11/2008 20:56:03
465# You are the indoctrinated one. Our Unionist ancestors built this great nation which is the United Kingdom. And long may it live with or without a Queen. Some of you Nats/Reps or whatever you call yourselves are the Celtic fringe offspring. Tattie munchers as such.
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 21:01:55
473 Shamus, Glasgow 26/11/2008 20:56:03

What a loathsome wee man.
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 21:04:51
474 The Spook in Leith, 26/11/2008 20:59:15

If the allegations made against him on these boards yesterday have any veracity I think he'll have changed his moniker by now.
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 21:05:50
MFI set to go into administration
Published Date: 26 November 2008

FURNITURE chain MFI has filed a notice of intention to appoint administrators, its previous owner confirmed today.
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puskas,

East kilbride 26/11/2008 21:13:15
No 473 Shamus.

Sadly for my Irish cousine would have liked a few tatties .. The tragedy is they didn't have any.

Silly person..

I shall remind you that not only the Irish but Scots from the North and Islands starved also.. Many arriving in Glasgow to escape and survive..

Yes and many emigrated to start lifes in North America, OZ, and NZ. Similarities amongst the Kelts on how being part of the union was an obsecenty. Our cultures obliterated in the name of unionism.

Indoctrinated? Not me .. I forgive you though as you know no better due to your indoctrination into the evils of the Empire. I forgive you and your tunnel vision.
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 21:15:07
480 The Spook in Leith, 26/11/2008 21:08:02

Jill and David, Leadhills yesterday alleged inappropriate behaviour with little boys and supplied a link to a rather nasty wee website they said was his. He went off air immediately.
380

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 21:19:00
"Wednesday November 26, 2008

Foreigners targeted in coordinated attacks

Gunmen stalked a hotel in Bombay looking for British and US passport holders during attacks that left at least 80 dead"

The union dividend?
381

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 21:20:50
Wednesday November 26, 2008

30,000 jobs at risk as Woolworths falls

Struggling high street store will go into administration first thing in the morning, despite intervention from the government
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Steve A.,

26/11/2008 21:25:00
The herald will not post your comment if you criticise gorgo broon .

F'ing unbelievable


What happened to free speech?
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Scunnert,

26/11/2008 21:27:22
488 Steve A., 26/11/2008 21:25:00

A sad end to a once great Scottish newspaper.
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The Strategist,

26/11/2008 21:28:07
SNP Tax Bombshell!!! What nonsense..

I had an update today on the value of three of my private pensions. They've fallen by between 20% and 30%. New Labour at it's best - destroying value, destroying savings... These people are fundamentally evil.
385

,

26/11/2008 21:29:23
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386

Queen D,

Glasgow 26/11/2008 21:30:59
I do believe the subject matter concerned " tax bombshell" ,not the Westminster one but the SNP one.
Does that mean that the Union dividend is allowing us to pay twice?
Can't wait!
I wish someone would take a team of the fit healthy and young and re build Hadrian's wall.
They will probably have to take it a wee bit further south than the original , somewhere near Watford , I do believe that some of our English friends are pretty pi**ed off with the Westminster debacle too!
387

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 21:31:03
From The Times
November 26, 2008
Darling wants ‘biggest spending cut since devolution'

Angus Macleod Scottish Political Editor
A confrontation is looming between Scottish ministers and their Westminster counterparts over a projected £500million annual cut in the Holyrood budget.
388

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 21:34:56
490 The Spook in Leith, 26/11/2008 21:27:47

The TimesOnLine and CNN.
389

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 21:37:31
496 sm753, 26/11/2008 21:34:35

Yes Sam the Millerman and his unionist allies did their very best to close the Herald's threads.
390

puskas,

East kilbride 26/11/2008 21:37:44
AM2 .... In an Independent Scotland would you pack your bags and emigrate.

Mariner, would you change the flag on your wee boat to a Saltire or remain a pirate in Scottish waters doon at the park..
391

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 21:41:00
There seems to be a consensus on this thread that Darling and Broon are failures who have destroyed the UK economy and spitefully target Scotland for "Special Treatment".
392

puskas,

East kilbride 26/11/2008 21:46:34
No504 Scunnert and 505 Col Blimp..

I agree with you both . Its a pleasure to read wise posts..
393

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 21:54:24
506 puskas

Aye - we're no aw dafties.
394

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 21:58:15
508 sm753, 26/11/2008 21:51:45

Getting a wee bit crabbie there fella!
395

,

26/11/2008 22:00:09
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396

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 22:01:52
"The fact is this prime minister has given us the debt levels of Italy and the accounting practices of Enron," said the Tory leader to cheers from his own benches.
He added: "Isn't the real lesson from the PBR this: the country is going bankrupt, he's been found out and New Labour's dead?" demanded Mr Cameron.

tinyurl.com/67dtu6
397

,

26/11/2008 22:12:54
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398

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 22:16:12
515 Col. Blimp­IV*, 26/11/2008 22:09:08

He'll get nae pity fae me.

"Just five minutes Worm yer honour - him and me alone."
399

Rufus T. Firefly,

26/11/2008 22:16:19
"507 The Spook in Leith,26/11/2008 21:51:37
#504

Darling and Brown think they have saved the economy by reducing VAT down to 15%..so we are saving £2 in every £100 we spend!! My Christmas spend will amount to £250-£300 so i will save a max of £6, fu#k peel a grape.."

You tight barst Spook!
400

Truely English,

26/11/2008 22:27:11
Like all other difficulties this great British nation of ours has had to confront we will get over this one when we start to pull together.

It will be difficult once David Cameron wins the Election for the Conservatives but these problems will fade as they always do with a new government.

We can take great comfort from the fact that the Spirit of our Nation the English language binds us together to make us one big undivided family.

God Save The Queen.
401

Conan the Librarian™,

26/11/2008 22:30:48
522
523
Evening All.
524
Aw bless, Truely.Is he saving her for later?
402

brownlie,

26/11/2008 22:37:18
495 sm753

You're not the only one yawning at the end of your postings.

Evening, Conan, Spook, Blimpy and all you other nasty nats. Gordon Brown for President!!
403

,

26/11/2008 22:45:01
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brownlie,

26/11/2008 22:54:49
527 Col. Blimp

Well, if Mandelson can mix with royalty, allegedly, why not put the man who saved the world and put the GB in GB on an equal footing with Obama.

528 Spooks,

What poll is that? Is it the nat's latest take on LIT?
405

brownlie,

26/11/2008 23:01:03
528 Spooks

PS Good luck on Saturday in the frozen north of Britain!! Remember live together, play together, win together and united we stand like all good unionists!
406

brownlie,

26/11/2008 23:09:27
533 The Spook

Stick two pencils up your nose and a Waitrose bag over your head and the Colonel will excuse you from "going over the top". Anyway, catch you later!!
407

The Strategist,

26/11/2008 23:38:42
#54

You don't listen do you.. Let me try again and see if you can understand it this time.

Oil price is dependent on demand which in turn is dependent on economic activity..

As of now economic activity is low so oil price is low..

Assuming that at some stage economic activity improves the oil price will go back up.. In fact if oil companies don't continue investing then the price will overshoot..

Got it this time?

408

Yankee girl,

California 26/11/2008 23:40:04
Still playin' that footie ball, Spooky?
409

Shamus,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 00:05:18
506# They must be wise posts if you agree with them. That means you are wise. How come the country is in such an alleged mess with all you wise guys about.
410

Millerman1,

27/11/2008 00:10:07
501#

Scunnert Hillhouse.

Rubbish, Sam as you know it and of course you and yours are not going to admit it was the most fruitful poster to grace the threads, he made it crystal clear what his plans were from the start to stop snp propaganda and threads looking like snp chatrooms on the Herald and done it, years of posting by you and the gang were destroyed in 8 weeks, Sam even helped see the snp lost Glenrothes, predicted the result almost to the number Labour would hammer the snp, i see also he was right about what he said about LIT aswell, he sure is some cookie.

Sam if you are reading this i think you should "persuade" the Scotsman to change the comments system to full moderation before a post can be listed.

It puzzles me why most of the snp loonies post here when all they do is attack the Scotsman, if you do not like it here do one, you will not be missed.

Perhaps this time you will not underestimate Sam(Not that it will stop him).lol.

BIG SMILE
411

Millerman1,

27/11/2008 00:17:13
I see LA set up another account after her abusive posts got deleted, she reported one of my posts, i returned the compliment by getting her account closed.lol.

I do not want to see a repeat of the Herald here and a handful of idiots from the Herald e.g Observer1, LA, joe/juan/june kerr, etc etc ruining the threads here for everyone.

412

Shamus,

Glasgow 27/11/2008 01:00:39
354# The comments in the Scotsman and the Herald do not influence voters. The SNP supporters probably do use it as a chat room. They can chat all the rubbish they want. The majority of Scots support the Union that is a fact the SNP detest. They think the majority of Scots are stupid. As for getting posters removed that is silly. No point to it. The SNP posters are a bonus for the Unionists. Let the idiots chat away.
413

Shaken,

27/11/2008 11:49:42
#534

I think the 'loony' SNP supporters are under the impression that news reporting should be unbias and informed.

My opinion is that any paper should report what is acutally happenning not churn out propaganda for the ruling party.

This may seem like a Marxists statement but do me a favour read the headlines in this paper and you'll find over 90% of them are slanting a story to show the SNP negatively.

I'm not saying they (SNP) are unimpeachable by any means but there are larger government (Labour) failings being ignored.

414

Matt there,

Somewhere 27/11/2008 16:24:25
As we all know, it is the job of Brown to drop tax bombshells. Like the planned increase in VAT to 18.5%.

 

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