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Published Date: 11 March 2009
THE introduction of minimum prices for alcohol will be delayed until next year, in a blow for the SNP.
Opposition parties yesterday forced the Scottish Government to introduce primary legislation from scratch for its proposals to tackle Scotland's problems with alcohol.

The move means that a plan to introduce minimum pricing by Christmas using existing laws and devolved powers has been scuppered.

It is the second blow for the Scottish Government on one of its last flagship policies, inflicted by a union of Labour, the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats less than a week after an independence referendum was rejected on Thursday.

The Scottish Government had hoped to tag minimum pricing on to the 2005 Licensing Act, which is about to come into force, and make it a mandatory condition for off-licences.

But at a meeting of Holyrood's business bureau, where future debates and parliamentary business are decided, the three main opposition parties said all the proposals would be thrown out unless the Scottish Government introduced primary legislation.

This means minimum pricing cannot be rushed through and is unlikely to come into force until next year at the earliest.

It will also raise further questions about the legality of minimum pricing, which is already concerning the UK government and legal experts because of the possibility it breaks European competition law.

It had been thought that the SNP was avoiding new legislation to get round any legal challenges, as well as to speed up the measure.

Opposition party chief whips said that a major change, such as the one proposed by the Scottish Government, needed proper scrutiny.

Mike Rumbles, the Liberal Democrat chief whip, said: "It is ironic that it is Scottish Nationalists that are wilfully disregarding our national parliament and a key national industry. These are controversial measures that could have a devastating impact on the whisky industry."

Labour's business manager, Michael McMahon, said: "It's not that we are necessarily against these measures, but we cannot have a sea change like this without proper parliamentary scrutiny."

Industry figures have welcomed the delay.

In yesterday's Scotsman leading business figures, including Iain McMillan, the director of CBI Scotland, Jeremy Beadles from the Wine and Spirit Trade Association, Fiona Moriarty from the Scottish Retail Consortium and Campbell Evans, director of the Scottish Whisky Association, wrote demanding that attempts to bypass parliamentary scrutiny be stopped.

David Lonsdale, a director of CBI Scotland, said: "The ministerial proposals currently on the table have significant implications for consumers and businesses, so we very much welcome moves to ensure they are subject to the fullest debate and scrutiny by parliament."

A spokesman for the First Minister said: "The allocation of the Scottish Government's alcohol measures through the various processes of parliamentary scrutiny will be determined in due course when these matters are brought forward."



LIB DEMS CAUGHT SHORT

THE Lib Dems have been accused of having one of the shortest economic policies in history after their plan to reduce income tax by 2p was dumped.

Scottish leader Tavish Scott admitted yesterday the party is no longer pushing the policy which he only announced 176 days ago and it will not be on the agenda for this weekend's conference.

He said they had "lost the argument" on the measure which would take out £700 million from the Scottish budget and will only be re-introduced in the 2011 Holyrood election "depending on the economic circumstances."

SNP MSP Maureen Watt said: "This must be the shortest lived economic policy in living memory."

The full article contains 592 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
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1

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11/03/2009 00:14:19
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subrosa,

11/03/2009 00:15:24
Why does our Parliament need a year to discuss one Bill?
3

The Strategist,

11/03/2009 00:16:00
I think it's time for an election.
4

Curley Bill,

11/03/2009 00:16:08
One wonders at the mentality of these 'opposition' parties.
By attacking every proposal the Government bring out they are going against the will of the Scottish people, who elected the SNP to govern.
They will reap what they've sown when election time comes around.
The public sees that the SNP are trying, with their alcohol proposals, to put the health of the nation first.


5

Edward,

11/03/2009 00:28:49
Labour have become the pathetic party
A bunch of time serving no hopers that take orders from Gordon Brown,who hates the SNP
6

,

11/03/2009 00:30:13
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allandale,

Stirlingshire 11/03/2009 00:31:24

As Gordon Brown keeps saying "the do nothing parties"
8

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 00:33:10


At Last!, Good News! lets put the 'Scottish Flags out, and after a "year" it might be long enough to see their demise!



9

redcliffe62,

11/03/2009 00:33:56
the opposition seems intent on achieving nothing and grandstanding, so no change from the london parties there then.
10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 00:34:47


If the current SNP get their way, say 'Goodbye' to Scottish Whisky!

11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 00:36:51


Infact!, it the current SNP get their way, just be done with it and say,.....

...."Goodbye Scotland"!


12

frank mcbride,

lusitania 11/03/2009 00:38:54
Why, when they have no policies of their own, do the Unionist Alliance Parties feel oblidged to be obstructive?

Do they really believe that the people of Scotland will see this obstructionism as leading to good governance, or improving their situation?

Roll on, the forthcoming elections.
13

frank mcbride,

lusitania 11/03/2009 00:41:59
A very bored Scottish audience says,

Goodbye Mr Linskaill!!!
14

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11/03/2009 00:51:35
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Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 00:52:59


frank mcbride ~15,

'Hah Hah'!, Very Funny, but whats not Funny, is the destruction of our Heritage, and the old folk who may have very little to enjoy in life, but look forward to their wee 'Glass of Whisky' but cant afford it any longer, because they voted SNP, and/or because of the SNP.

16

SkeptikScot,

11/03/2009 00:53:46
Unless one party has a hefty majority this is how it will always be.

We're never likely to have big majorities unless we adopt the "first pass the post", so we'd better get used to it.




17

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 00:56:36


It started in America.But I saved the world ~16,

When the 'Truth' Stares you in-the-face, your the type to run away from it, or just won't admit it, are you not?



18

Thomas79,

Ayrshire 11/03/2009 01:00:33
Every week now it seems we hear of opposition parties joining forces to destroy/wreck/delay/dump SNP policies.

It is quite clear what they are planning, especially Labour. In 2011 Labour will campaign that the SNP have failed the people by failing to implement all their policies and manifesto pledges.

If these policies are murdered, it will be Labour holding the knife.
19

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 01:03:19


Scottish Unionist 1 ~20,

Look 'Little Boy', with your Tantrum!, I will have you know that I worked for the SNP, some years ago, and support the then SNP, but not the current,...

...'Muppet Show'!

20

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11/03/2009 01:04:35
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11/03/2009 01:05:48
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11/03/2009 01:06:30
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11/03/2009 01:07:34
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Scotindy,

Los Angeles 11/03/2009 01:13:11
The SNP really ought to concentrate on what they were elected to do and nothing else. DELIVER INDEPENDENCE AND GET ON WITH IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
25

Thomas79,

Ayrshire 11/03/2009 01:28:10
42,500 alcohol-related hospital discharges
1,500 deaths per year
soaring rates of liver cirrhosis
the eighth highest consumption in the world

What are we going to do about this terribe situation?

Some people in this forum suggest doing nothing so that some people can save a few pounds at the end of the week.

I think its better some people pay a little more, in order to safe lives. The SNP proposals, I believe, are a step in the right direction.

26

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 01:31:52

#27,

I do not care who you are or what you are and who you support!

The issue is about "alcohol" and how the powers at be, representing Scotland, are going to wreck many a business's and intude on many peoples lives, because of the few!

I could not care a 'HOOT', if it is The SNP, Tory, Labour, or 'Screaming-Lord-Such', proposing this madness, on alcohol super tax!, my comments would be the same to any of these party's, giving out sheer madness's.

27

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11/03/2009 01:38:25
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Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 01:55:42


Think of 10 people in your life, that you Know!

Are we saying 8 out of 10 of these people abuse alcohol?

I THINK NOT!

Soo Why!, If one of the People that you Know, abuse alcohol, do the other nine, have to suffer by paying extra for a glass of wine, beer, or whisky, blah, blah??

This IS the concept of the matter, and is just as MAD, as the SNP wanting to super tax chocolate because some are overweight!

What will be Next?

One person, in a 100Think of 10 people in your life, that you Know!

Are we saying 8 out of 10 of these people abuse alcohol?

I THINK NOT!

Soo Why!, If one of the People that you Know, abuse alcohol, do the other nine, have to suffer by paying extra for a glass of wine, beer, or whisky, blah, blah??

This IS the concept of the matter, and is just as MAD, as the SNP wanting to super tax chocolate because some are overweight!

What will be Next?

One person, in a 100 say, decide to abuse themselves with a 'Kitchen Knife', does this mean a super tax on all sharp objects!?

Why can one NOT see the Sense! in tackling the situation, with sense, instead of 'School-boy-tactics'? say, decide to abuse themselves with a 'Kitchen Knife', does this mean a super tax on all sharp objects!?

Why can one NOT see the Sense! in tackling the situation, with sense, instead of 'School-boy-tactics'?

29

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 02:00:02
Comment 35 corupted when sent, please ignore, re error correction,

Think of 10 people in your life, that you Know!

Are we saying 8 out of 10 of these people abuse alcohol?

I THINK NOT!

Soo Why!, If one of the People that you Know, abuse alcohol, do the other nine, have to suffer by paying extra for a glass of wine, beer, or whisky, blah, blah??

This IS the concept of the matter, and is just as MAD, as the SNP wanting to super tax chocolate because some are overweight!

What will be Next?

One person, in a 100 say, decide to abuse themselves with a 'Kitchen Knife', does this mean a super tax on all sharp objects!?

Why can one NOT see the Sense! in tackling the situation, with sense, instead of 'School-boy-tactics'?

30

Fred Leeson,

marbella 11/03/2009 02:02:33
#20 Scottish Unionist
"Vote Conservative, the party of genuine values"

err don't think so -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/4209451/sleazy-tory-mingers.html
31

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11/03/2009 02:58:54
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KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 11/03/2009 05:26:37
"THE Lib Dems have been accused of having one of the shortest economic policies in history after their plan to reduce income tax by 2p was dumped.Scottish leader Tavish Scott admitted yesterday the party is no longer pushing the policy which he only announced 176 days ago and it will not be on the agenda for this weekend's conference."

Like I said, LibDem policies have a 6 month shelf life.

They should change their name to The Wind Socks.

I predict in 6 months time not only will they be in support of the Government crack down on cheap booze but they will also be supporting a referendum on Scotland's future in the Union.
33

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 11/03/2009 05:32:44
#17 Chuck

"'Hah Hah'!, Very Funny, but whats not Funny, is the destruction of our Heritage, and the old folk who may have very little to enjoy in life, but look forward to their wee 'Glass of Whisky' but cant afford it any longer, because they voted SNP, and/or because of the SNP."

They might also like to be able to go out in the evening without risking being harassed by gangs of Cider and Buckfast fuelled Neds.
34

Angleland Isover,

11/03/2009 06:26:54
To all unionists. If you cant help don't hinder.
35

Ubi,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 06:43:16
This development may well spell the end of it altogether. Having been out-maneuvered by the combined opposition it seems questionable that this legislation will be introduced in the year preceding a Scottish General Election.

Perhaps the outcome is no bad thing. It had the look of the knee jerk about it and seemed like a banker for the law of unintended consequences.

This is not Kenny's first embarrassment. It's becoming increasingly difficult to regard him as a safe pair of hands. More the strident populist.
36

Phil C,

11/03/2009 06:58:31
Good! This is a blessing in disguise for the SNP. They'll have time to rethink this daft policy which could cost them dear. Cool it Kenny should be the advice.

I don't believe that minimum pricing would make one iota of difference to the alcohol problem in any case. It would just be an unpopular measure among most of the population who don't abuse alcohol, who would feel unfairly treated.

The SNP could have more of an effect NOW by seeing that the current laws are enforced. Confiscation of bevvy, detentions and fines, of offenders and parents of the young offenders, might get somewhere. Instant punishments, not laborious record-intensive court cases are the way forward. The loud-mouthed offenders aren't usually secretive about drinking in public! Even our esteemed boys and girls in blue should be able to find them if they got outside a bit more. Decrease Labour's police paperwork and red tape and use the time productively.
37

walter,

11/03/2009 07:04:43
New legislation was passed in parliament in 2005 and comes into effect this year, that gave all concerned time to adjust.
The SNP tried to circumvent parliamentary procedure and tag this on to the end of that legislation.
We should be thankful that the representatives of the majority of the people will not let the will of the people be ignored by this minority government who were elected by a minority of the electorate.
If the SNP ever get an overall majority then and only then will they be able to pass legislation but until that time they will not be able to dictate to the majority the will of a minority.
38

Grahamski,

Falkirk 11/03/2009 07:08:54
This discredited SNP administration is a laughing-stock; the policy SNP tank seems to have only reverse gears as their daft policies are exposed and dropped one by one. It's a steep learning curve for the nutty nats who are learning the hard way that loud-mouthed 'you don't want to do that' politics are fine in opposition but make you look ridiculous when you have to implement them in government.
I am curious to see what they have the nerve to put in their manifesto for the 2011 elections. Will they be stupid enough to make all these promises again? I'd bet my house on it......
39

Phil C,

11/03/2009 07:16:53
45 & 46 Wally & Trotski

One thing that's incredibly clear on these boards is that unionists tend to be a bit thick. They haven't yet grasped that the SNP is leading a minority government. It is not a defeat when the opposition gang up to play silly political games. It is the expected outcome, often against the expressed opinions of the people. The only loser when key manifesto commitments are voted down is democracy.

The majority view is that the SNP are largely doing well, certainly much better than Labour have ever managed during their long time of dominance. There will be another election and the opposition had better start thinking about their disruptive actions.
40

Grahamski,

Falkirk 11/03/2009 07:29:18
47
"It is not a defeat when the opposition gang up..."
Why do the SNP try and undermine the will of the Scottish people? Do you accept that our MSPs were fairly and democratically elected?
41

greenhill,

11/03/2009 07:46:58
Get it right up the killjoy SNP!
42

ddmc,

11/03/2009 07:48:20
prohibition by stealth, increase minimum price, lets face it folks, most of us know at least 1 alchoholic person & also know that alchoholics (& other addicts) are the most cunning & determined group of people who will find a way to get blootered ! regardless of the road blocks placed in their path. Prohibition has never worked so lets find an alternative to the solution, education & oppertunity seem the best way, but regardless of help available, some alchies like being alchies & will never change until cirrohsis (sp) sets in & even then some keep going until they die !
43

Phil C,

11/03/2009 07:52:33
#48

There are question marks about Labour's handling of the election, but yes I accept that our MSPs were fairly and democratically elected. The SNP were elected to lead a minority government which has since been hindered by a childish opposition. I can't remember the last time Labour got a majority of votes to Westminster but they seem to believe that they have a right to wreck our country whenever they get into power!

I do not accept that this is a discredited SNP administration, nor that it is a laughing-stock. You may want to believe that but you are in a small minority. A large majority in every poll that I have seen approve of the SNP's performance.

As it happens I think the policy of forcing a minimum price for drink is daft and I approve of the opposition's stance in this case. However I don't hear much from them as to what to do about the huge problem of alcohol abuse in Scotland.
44

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11/03/2009 07:53:21
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Phil C,

11/03/2009 08:00:00
#54

I give up! You tell me. They were probably right though!
46

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11/03/2009 08:00:56
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11/03/2009 08:05:14
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Phil C,

11/03/2009 08:06:35
#54

Your 'quiz' is a silly irrelevance.

Who has overseen and ignored the appaling state of Scotland's health and diet, the serial abuse of alcohol and the scandalous levels benefit dependancy.....?

A. Labour
B. Labour
C. Labour
D. Labour
49

Grahamski,

Falkirk 11/03/2009 08:12:14
58
"History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce."
Karl Marx (1818–1883)
50

Hamish MacBeth,

Wellington 11/03/2009 08:12:51
Grahamski, Listen me old mate, you got yourself into a lot of poo yesterday with your BNP views of how Gaelic should not be given any help to survive. You are an ass in the 1st order so I think it's best to just keep you're stupid ignorant mouth shut OK? Now toddle off like the good little skinhead that you are!

Now back to the topic, here in New Zealand we are having HUGE problems with drinking. The age limit was lowered a few years ago from 21 to 18 and now every weekend it's a battle field, violent crime that's got drink included in the equation has risen massively. You're even getting shop workers getting petrol thowen over them and being threatened to be burnt alive unless they hand over boose!!
Now the government are thinking of putting up the age limit again, if they do it will be a good thing.
The SNP are 100% in the right to try and do something about this.
Pity fools like Grahamski and Linskaill hate the SNP and the thought of Scotland running it's own affairs that they have to spew complete garbage at every turn.
51

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11/03/2009 08:13:08
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11/03/2009 08:17:05
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11/03/2009 08:18:27
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TWC,

Ex Labour 11/03/2009 08:18:31
54 Grahamski
Graham

who is ripping off Scotland to pay for the olympics who Ripped off Scottish Oil to pay for the English infrastructure at the expense of Scotland
Who Ruined the UK (twice)
Who is trying to cut £1Bn from Scottish budgets
who is refusing to give Scotland Fiscal Autonomy
who is limiting Calman in spite of agreements with the Libdems

The Labour party.
That is why even true union supporters are leaving them.
55

puskas,

East kilbride 11/03/2009 08:25:39
No13................................

Bye, Bye.......... Good luck when you decide to leave.
56

Bejjy,

Europe 11/03/2009 08:31:03
#61 Hamish MacBeth,

Why is it then that in many southern European countries alcohol can be bought both off-sales and for consumption in bars at the age of 16 and yet these countries don't experience the levels of anti-social behaviour that you describe as happening in New Zealand? When I lived in the UK and the age limit was 18, as it still is, young people under that age were still able to purchase alcohol with ease. Raising the age limit to 21 on its own is not going to solve the problem as anti-social behaviour fuelled by alcohol does not start at a certain age and end at another. A lot of over 21's cause mayhem when they have had too much alcohol.
57

TWC,

exLabour 11/03/2009 08:32:18
Well said Scottish Unionist.

When are we going to see the back of Brown, I think he is still contributing to the disaster. Other Countries quote the same overall belief but avoid the detailed action he takes like the plague.
Are there any brave Scots left in the Labour party or are they going to tamely accept leadership from the likes of Brown, Darling, Murphy, cooper, Balls and Harriet Has been?
58

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11/03/2009 08:36:21
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11/03/2009 08:37:35
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john z,

edinburgh 11/03/2009 08:37:56
I think that outside of certain unionist politicians minds, you will find that most people in Scotland agree with what the SNP propose. It will set a minimum price per unit of alcohol, and so is extremely unlikely to have a major impact on the Scotch Whisky industry. It is a MINIMUM price, not a price rise per se, so more expensive drinks (like whisky) will be largely unaffected.

Those unionist politicians who pretend they are standing up for the Scotch Whisky industry are LIARS and they know it. Most Scotch Whisky is exported, and not consumed in Scotland.

The SNP are correct to act to stop alcohol problems, and they are doing more about the problem, than either the LibDems or London Labour did in a whole eight years.
61

Hamish MacBeth,

NZ 11/03/2009 08:38:36
71: you're right but I think the SNP HAS to do something, to do nothing is mad.
Also the amount of liquor/off license shops here in NZ since the age lowering has tripled.
62

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11/03/2009 08:48:25
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Grahamski,

Falkirk 11/03/2009 08:49:25
76
Most people agree that increasing the unit costs of alcohol will ameliorate Scotland's drinking problem? Really?
Wait until it hits the vast majority's pocket and see how much support this knee-jerk and reactionary policy actually commands. Another own goal from the hapless nats.....
64

The Ayrshire Bard,

11/03/2009 08:50:00
It's very hard on the rest of us when Charles Linkscaill forgets to take his medication. He stays up till the wee sma' hours writing the most ungrammatical garbage. Apostrophes in all the wrong places, capital letters when none are required, Scottish Whisky when the correct term is Scotch.
Please Charles, do us all a favour and go to bed at 10pm with your darling young wife. We'll all feel much better for it.
65

TWC,

Ex Labour 11/03/2009 08:55:34
82 Grahamski..Graham I like the fact that the Nats are trying to do something for Scotland. I happen to ythink that with Fiscal Autonomy Scotland whould have a whole new political system and not go back to just supporting the Labour name but really loking at their policies.
Currently we are being forced to accept Browns crazy ideas but the US will not back him and after that the Europeans will desert him.
Then we'll get a GE but all the money will be gone.
66

Marian,

11/03/2009 08:55:47
Scottish Labour have recently taken to frequently claiming that the SNP has broken most of its manifesto pledges as their pre-election strategy even though the SNP as a minority government in its first 2 years in government have actually delivered 60% of their manifesto commitments so far and still have 2 more years to go!

Not bad going considering some of the pledges that were dropped were forced upon them by the Unionist parties ganging up to vote them down as a strategy to try and whittle down the SNP manifesto to one major policy - namely Independence.

It would appear that the Unionist parties chief arguments against the Scottish Government's policies tend to be "I'm sure there's a law against that somewhere";

For example:-

The SNP bring in plans to combat the country's alcohol problem, but it's ruled illegal by the UK Government.

The SNP bring in plans to issue bonds to raise funds for the Scottish Futures Trust, but it's ruled illegal by the UK Government.

The SNP bring in plans to implement Local Income Tax, but it's ruled illegal by HMR&C.

The SNP bring in plans to cut class sizes to 18, but it's judged to be illegal by the Tories.

Nevertheless the SNP has delivered 60% of its manifesto pledges in the first 2 years of minority government.

Who knows how much more they could have delivered for Scotland had they been able to form a coalition majority government .
67

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 11/03/2009 09:02:55
#4

"One wonders at the mentality of these 'opposition' parties.
By attacking every proposal the Government bring "

I know it may come as a shock to you - but guess what 'opposition' parties are supposed to do? They are meant to scrutinise 'government' legislation and 'oppose' things they thinka re stupid, inept, daft, uncosted, over the top expensive etc.

So the opposition is 'doing its job'.

Finally, 'Rthe Scottish People' (whatever that may be) did not elect the SNP - which is a minority devolved adminsitration - not a government. So more of the electorate in Scotland voted for parties which are NOT the SNP than voted for it.

Reality is so frustrating isnt it - keeps intruding on all those romantic fantasies.
68

Grahamski,

Falkirk 11/03/2009 09:23:10
73
Marian,
Perhaps you're looking at this the wrong way?
Surely it is the party's responsibility to make sure their policies comply with existing law and can work within the various national and international legislation which affects it.
For example, the SNP's fishing policy is against current European legislation and will disallow an independent Scotland's entry to the EU. The SNP solution? They think the EU will change their legislation if Scotland threatens not to join....this kind of politics is all very well for a fringe party or single-issue campaign. As the SNP are learning you can't behave this way in government.
69

Publius,

London 11/03/2009 09:24:14
#76 "In England they talk about the hapless spivs in Labour that come from Scotland and how the SNP Gov is delivering real results."

You're half right. Many of my acquaintance do see the UK Labour government as a bunch of spivs from Scotland. But the few who have heard of the SNP government see them as bunch of spivs too!

The opposition parties have done the SNP a favour. Minimum pricing is almost certainly illegal under EU rules. If the SNP government is serious about alcoholism and drunkenness, it should ensure that the existing laws are enforced. Remove the license from any off-licence that sells to under 18 year olds, prosecute everyone who is drunk and disorderly in a public place, prosecute all publicans who sell booze to people who are already drunk etc. It is not new laws that are needed. It is the enforcement of the existing ones.

70

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 09:24:44
Excellent news!!

Now hopefully these ridiculous ideas will get shelved and then quietly forgotten about... Until of course, someone from stupid labour starts gloating like a schoolkid about the SNP not having the backbone to impliment them, then we are going to go through the entire stupid charade once again.

Why, oh why did stupid labour have to dig this one up again? MacAskill's inane proposals had just about been forgotten about and consigned to the annals of bad judgement, then you get stupid labour using the failure to impliment the daft ideas as a tool with which to have a dig at the SNP.

Are they really so set on wasting so much parliamentary time and tax-payers' money on this rubbish? Plus of course, there is always a (very slim) chance that enough politicians will remove their brains and actually vote this rubbish through, then where would we be?

For christs sake, can we please let sleeping dogs lie now?
71

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 09:28:52
#79:

"If the SNP government is serious about alcoholism and drunkenness, it should ensure that the existing laws are enforced."

Wrong. If the SNP government is serious about dealing with the problems we are experiencing then they will BACK OFF with the enforcement and deal with the matter using propaganda to change attitudes. Over-zealous enforcement gave us many of these problems in the first place. The last thing we need is more of the same.

The thing is, there is no quick fix to this problem. It took over 10 years of draconian laws and rod-of-iron enforcement to get us here. It is going to take at least just as long to get back to where we were.
72

'smise,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 09:29:34
Open your eyes Tweedmouth! Alcoholism is a huge problem in Scotland and the proposal for raising the price of alcohol is not a romantic fantasy! People working in the 'addiction' services and their patrons know, from research and experience, that raising the price inhibits the purchase of alcohol. Waken up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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11/03/2009 09:29:46
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Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 09:32:01
Rules:

"If SNP is serious about alky problems then let it hold a referendum on the proposals..."

I don't think so. Any referendum will be accompanied by a flood of propaganda, thereby influencing people to make the wrong decision and possibly let this through. I for one do not wish to have to concern myself with the dire consequences to all if that happens.

The best thing to do is to quietly forget about it.
75

ecosseman,

FACTS NOT PROPAGANDA 11/03/2009 09:34:26
WHAT A LOAD OF DRIBBLE FROM THE BROON CAMP.

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
76

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 09:36:16
#83:

"People working in the 'addiction' services and their patrons know, from research and experience, that raising the price inhibits the purchase of alcohol."

...and encourages the stealing of it through muggings and housebreaking.

We are not in a position now where we can introduce more draconian alcohol legislation and step up the enforcement. We need to change people's attitudes first.

...And that doesnt mean turning everyone pink and fluffy. It means reverting to the concept of being able to handle your drink like a man (or lady).
77

Miss H,

11/03/2009 09:41:50
2 It takes a year for primary legislation to be passed. If the other parties want it to be done through primary legislation then fine. As long as it happens.
78

Miss H,

11/03/2009 09:44:21
41 In fact Graham primary legislation will strengthen the proposal not weaken it.

You haven't really thought this through.

A deal has been done here, the measures will be passed.
79

,

11/03/2009 09:46:39
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80

,

11/03/2009 09:52:23
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81

salmondella,

11/03/2009 09:52:39
A minority government always has to compromise, that is the lesson of history and the SNP are no different from any other party and why should any opposition party make it easy for them?

Given the present impasse of politics in Scotland - (and the SNP worshippers can rant all the like against Labour but so what?) - it is difficult to see how the SNP are going to win over a majority of Scots to their dream of independence even if the do increase their majority of seats at the next election, which is not certain and Labour, like many times in the past, could make a comeback -so write them off at your peril you NATS.

It matters nought what the pollsters say, without the power to get your flagship policies -you are nothing.

In this respect and as I have said before - the SNP are finished and they have had their day.

This is not wishful thinking on my part, only a statement of fact borne out of reality.
82

Boy Wonder,

11/03/2009 09:54:27
Bliddy heck, Chuckles (#10/#12 + #others) you certainly are polarising the posters here since I got too busy to be on here as much as I used to!

May I remind everyone that Chuckles Linskaill is a 96 year-old with senile dementia and regularly misses his medications quite deliberately. Don't listen to his rants ... he can't help himself. Think of him like Father Jack Hackett from the "Father Ted" series and you got him down pat!

Play nice with him!
83

,

11/03/2009 09:55:17
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84

,

11/03/2009 09:55:28
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85

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 09:56:41
Maddox, this is not a blow for the SNP, it is a blow for Scotland.
86

,

11/03/2009 09:57:01
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87

,

11/03/2009 09:57:43
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88

,

11/03/2009 09:58:00
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,

11/03/2009 09:58:07
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Miss H,

11/03/2009 10:07:54
92 What a silly and contradictory post. You make the same mistake as many Labour supporters in thinking you can rejoice at the fact that the SNP Government can’t implement all its policies due to Labour/Tory/Lib Dem opposition while – simultaneously – attacking the SNP for not implementing all its policies.

This is the Labour position: The local income tax is a bad thing, we will oppose it, we will get together with the Tories and prevent the SNP delivering this commitment. The SNP has shelved local income tax which is a disgrace because it was a manifesto commitment. They should deliver on their promises.

The little grey cells aren’t functioning so well there, are they?

You are correct that a minority government always has to compromise, that is the lesson of history. And the SNP has compromised. Cue shrill Labour accusations of ‘another SNP broken promise’!

Thankfully the electorate is not as daft as the Labour Party. They will judge the SNP on what the minority government has delivered, not what they have not delivered. Labour just don’t get that.
91

,

11/03/2009 10:10:44
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92

jockie,

Loanhead 11/03/2009 10:14:38
if ever mp,s proved they were only jumped up toon cooncillors just getting a pay rise for doing nothing this bunch take the biscuit . But i still think the SNP are right in this instance
93

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 11/03/2009 10:17:50
we do have to do something,about alcohol abuse in scotland
but what really is the way forward ?,if youve never had a relative with a drink problem,then its hard to see whats best,education is foremost,some have moaned about students moaning about the prices,till we rid the booze culture,where pub crawls and drinking contests are done away with,i might be a start
yes i do drink,i used to drink a lot ,till i realised how skint it made me,and having monster hangovers is not smart either
all parties in the scots parli should all contribute towards what will help scots ,not bicker and delay things
personaly i think we pay far too much for whisky whilst wine snobs are getting a better deal
94

Mcsnagpile,

11/03/2009 10:21:33
I phoned The HBOS on the Mound today and got West Yorkshire switchboard. Linlithgow?? never heard of it--oh it is in Scotland. But he did know about Blacksheep beer---a grand Yorkshire pint.

Cheap booze but ye canny get a Blacksheep pint man.
95

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11/03/2009 10:21:47
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96

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 11/03/2009 10:29:00
#84 yes i watched that bbc alba prog,it was somean and petty,they acted worse than adolf hitler
unelected civil service johnies,telling us whats best for scotland
we could come up with a brilliant plan to make scotland better and healthier,but no way would these fat bloated pinstriped rent boy chasing middle class twits would allow it
yes minister and yes prime minister is seen as a comedy,its more truthful thaan anyone thought
they will do anything to kill democracy as long as they get their overpaid salary and pension
97

Mikey,

11/03/2009 10:34:29
If the SMP get their way, we may, if we are very lucky, see a "Goodbye Charles Linksaill!"
98

The Ayrshire Bard,

11/03/2009 10:46:11
#56 Interesting comments about young drinkers in NZ. We tend to think of NZ as being a haven of peace and law abiding people but this is evidently not the case. Is there a problem with young Maoris getting left behind in the job stakes and turning to alchohol, or is it far more general than that?
99

The Ayrshire Bard,

11/03/2009 10:54:26
#104 I know exactly what you mean. I've had too many 'Twyford Cuddles' over the years and seen too many pound notes go down the toilet. Thank heavens I've got more sense nowadays.
100

bluehead,

edinburgh 11/03/2009 10:59:40
postpone it for the next hundred years,its the people who drink it, not the price that causing all the trouble
the SNP should buck up a bit, some of their ideas are
quite crazy,
for instance they must stop the this madness that politicians have of always making the majority suffer
for the sins of the minority
,go after the ones who cause the trouble,the price of the drink won't stop them,dope is becoming even cheaper and the consequences are even worse,
101

Dunfesterin,

11/03/2009 11:08:20
You know, I see a lot of cyber-bullying on the Scotsman from the SNP mob. ffs, it's giving us SNP supporters a bad name.

The mentality seems to be:

"Disagree with Rufus T ersehole? Tell him to leave and harass him til he does."

"Disagree with Charles Linkskaill? Tell him to leave."

Who the Hell do you think you are? Are you moderators or something here? Or are you trying to establish an SNP-only clique?

I may not agree with what Rufus, AM2 or Charles says but they have as much right to say it as anyone else.

McBridie ya pie (see what I did there?) - do one! Go on, shoo!

Dunfesterin - a true SNP supporter.
102

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11/03/2009 11:18:15
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103

redcliffe62,

11/03/2009 11:23:50
alcohol is the only legal drug that is keeping people sane. ban that for the under 21's and watch the riots.
i think from a health aspect it would be great, i was a shocker at 18 to 21, student wild child, and my liver would be better now if i did not socialise as much then. the youth buys cheap booze and then accidents happen.
why a new bill? just do it to ciurrent legislation, hard for labour to do anything i know hitting their core red rosette smoking and drinking supporters, and make 18 to 21's accountable for their actions. maybe if they are stupid then they get banned from pubs as their licence or big brother id is stamped "idiot" and that they "cannot drink in public til at least 21."
104

salmondella,

11/03/2009 11:29:01
#101 Miss H - Sounds to me that you have came down with a bump from the dizzy heights of Glasgow East and as a supporter of a party that is not used to the ups and downs of being in minority power you are striking out at objective posts like my own like some kind of denial frenzy. ( please read my post properly and you will see that I said nothing of the sort)

#102 Your posts have nothing new to say and are the usual anti-labour rants, much of which i agree with so you are wasting your time. Pity about the dreaful spelling though.
105

Dunfesterin,

11/03/2009 11:37:54
I *AM* an SNP supporter..

I don't want a union with England. I despise Labour and the Tories. Labour are sleazy, lying, murdering, torturing b**tards and I'm fed up of being termed a "subsidy junkie" by our English friends when it's US that subsidises THEM!!

But because I defend Rufus' and Charles right to speak, that makes me a Labour man does it??

No wonder its the usual suspects posting every day, anyone with a different viewpoint is shouted down it seems. Are you Daily Mail readers or something??

PS: Banning them won't do any good, they could just re-register.
106

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11/03/2009 11:38:05
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107

gmac,

Kilmacolm 11/03/2009 11:38:35
I have listened to all these people complaining about establishing a minimum price for the product that are causing the alcohol problem.
let me suggest the solution to the problem.
leave the price the same and cap the maximum alcohol limit in the beers and ciders bought out of supermakets and off licenses to beteen 1% and 1.5%
This will allow them to drink their 10 pints or so and still remain reletively sober as them will spend most of their time in the "john" getting rid of the beer
Comment invited from the polititians!!!
108

Dunfesterin,

11/03/2009 11:46:16
I can't see how a minimum price for drink is going to make any difference to alcoholism in Glasgow.

Add £1, £2 to a drink, what difference will it make? Instead of buying more lager, just buy stronger drink like buckie or MD 20/20!!

Have the government thought it through?

Why do the moderate drinkers have to suffer because of the alkies who take it too far?
109

Number 6,

Germany 11/03/2009 11:48:22
Nothing new here. The unionista cabal have failed spectacularly over the years to do anything about Scotland's dreadful drink culture.

Just the thought of the SNP succeding where they have failed gives them sleepless nights.

Where are their policies to combat drink? No where as usual.The unionista cabal is a policy free zone, prefering to concentrate on obstructing the SNP at every turn. No matter how serious the problem, they will do all they can to ensure the SNP don't succeed where they have always failed.

Do they really think that this is the kind of Goverment Scots are looking for?

Labour's unwritten deal with it's Scottish flock allows for unlimited corruption, lies and sleaze, in return for a guarantee that they will never ever leave the flock in charge of it's own affairs and it's childrens future .

Will the flock really support this pathetic obstruction, even though they must see the damage it's doing to their country?. The answer has to be "not all of them." Of course the benefit brigades will have had their assurances that benefits wil never be cut, so they will still get those brigade members that know how to vote.

Those Labour voters who voted Labour because they thought they were the party of the working man now know different, and will now vote accordingly.

That leaves them with the sick lame and lazy, oh and not forgetting the "Fur the union" platoon.

All n all I believe all unionista parties will suffer for this at the next elections, as much as Labour know they are going to suffer outside Scotland.
110

Number 6,

Germany 11/03/2009 11:52:13
120 gmac: You could be onto something there .
111

TA1,

Perth 11/03/2009 11:52:45
While I'm not convinced the proposal would work I'm amazed at the number of folk, like #54. who seem to believe this is aimed at alkies - is it not aimed at tomorrow's alkies? Today's kids who get bevvied up on cheap stuff, so increasing the price of the cheapest is going to make it harder for them. Also was this not just one step in the plan as re-education will obviously be long-term and show little effect quickly?
Finally, would someone explain to me how a minimum price per unit significantly affect the price of a bottle of decent whisky, which ain't cheap at present?
112

Grahamski,

Falkirk 11/03/2009 11:53:43
122
Number 6,
I'm really concerned at the booze culture in our country. Specifically I'm worried at the number of wee neds out their heads on buckie and alcopops making everybody's life a misery.
Could you tell me how much more the wee neds will have to pay for their buckie and alcopops if the current SNP proposals are adopted?
113

The Strategist,

11/03/2009 11:56:28
Have to say that the more I hear about Iain McMillan from the CBI the more I associate him with a lack of economic and social progress, low levels of aspiration and little or no vision or imagination.

He's obstructive and obnoxious and I really don't understand why on earth anyone takes any notice of anything he says!
114

Hugh Roscombe,

11/03/2009 11:58:19
Grahamski

I thought the figure of 40p per unit was being bandied about.
115

Hugh Roscombe,

11/03/2009 11:59:31
"Under the scheme, alcohol cannot be sold below a minimum price per unit, which has yet to be set, although Scottish ministers suggested a level of around 40p.

This will mean a bottle of 13 per cent wine could not be sold for less than £3.90, a six-pack of four per cent lager £4.22, and a bottle of 40 per cent whisky would be at least £11.20."
116

Observer,,

Glasgow 11/03/2009 12:06:08
126 Grahamski - I think you know the answer to that one don't you ?
117

Dunfesterin,

11/03/2009 12:07:46
A six pack of medium strength lager will be dearer than high-strength wine??

Aye, way to go, that will cure the buckie problem alright!!! If you were a ned, what would you buy? Something that will get you off yer face and is cheap, or something that won't, and is expensive??

ffs Alec!!! THINK, MAN!!!

If more people turn to cheap high-strength wine rather than beer surely this is counter-productive? Violence is bound to go up!!!
118

Observer,,

Glasgow 11/03/2009 12:11:33
132 Buckie, Mad Dog, and they are now drinking sherry and port believe it or not, will be largely unaffected by the minimum pricing because they aren't that cheap to begin with. But they do blow your mind and make you behave in an anti-social way.

The only ''mental'' drink that will be affected is your giant bottles of cider.
119

alanh,

ek 11/03/2009 12:19:25
are the opposition parties simply opposing for the sake of it as usual or are they in the pocket of the drinks industry?

Something has to be done and now would have been good but, as usual, the opposition parties would rather talk to dilute the proposals than have any action
120

The Kids Are Alright,

11/03/2009 12:20:09
Why can't we comment on the real stories of the day.

Senseless killings around the globe

Please stop it!
121

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 11/03/2009 12:26:30
#122 Dunferstirin

"I can't see how a minimum price for drink is going to make any difference to alcoholism in Glasgow. Add £1, £2 to a drink, what difference will it make? Instead of buying more lager, just buy stronger drink like buckie or MD 20/20!!"

The charged is based on unit of alcohol. So the stronger the drink the more it will cost.

Most Brands of Lager will be unaffected, except for "Super" high alcohol brands.

Most wines will be unaffected, except for Buckie and other cheap high alcohol brands that wino's drink.

Most Brands of Whisky will be unaffected, except for that cheap store brand gut rot.

Cider will also be heavily hit as it has a high alcohol content in relation to its price.

So basically the average drinker will find that this barely affects them. But the idiots that just drink to get smashed on the cheapest swill available will find that they have to pay a lot more, or do it a lot less.
122

Grahamski,

Falkirk 11/03/2009 12:31:30
131
Of course we know the answer, buckie and alcopops will not be affected by this legislation.
I'd really like somebody to explain to me why under these proposals me buying three bottles of very acceptable red for a tenner will be illegal while the price of a drunken wee ned's tipple of choice remains unchanged.
This is madness and it further underlines just how out their depth this current discredited Holyrood administration is.
123

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 11/03/2009 12:32:55
#132 ffs you think. There is 4 times the volume in a 6 pack of beer than there is in a bottle of wine that is why its dearer. 4% x 4 =16 as against 13 in a bottle of wine. This makes cheap drink like bucky, cider and alchopops dearer than they are today and hardly affects grown up drinks like spirits and table wine. Hopefully this will deter the younger drinkers from drinking so much and will stop them becoming alchies in later life.
124

Grahamski,

Falkirk 11/03/2009 12:32:55
136
"Most wines will be unaffected, except for Buckie and other cheap high alcohol brands that wino's drink."

Not true. Buckie will not be affected by this, Asda's 3 for a tenner wines will.

Madness.
125

Grahamski,

Falkirk 11/03/2009 12:34:43
138
You are simply wrong here. Buckie and alcopops will not be affected by this legislation.
126

Observer,,

Glasgow 11/03/2009 12:35:05
136 Wrong.
127

Observer,,

Glasgow 11/03/2009 12:36:44
Do the sums - it's 40p a unit. That WON'T affect the price of Buckfast, M/D, and all the other fortified wines they drink. All it will affect is cider.
128

Grahamski,

Falkirk 11/03/2009 12:37:31
142
....and my 3 bottles for a tenner!
129

Observer,,

Glasgow 11/03/2009 12:47:02
143 I think that's the problem - you can't apply minimum pricing to certain brands. It's across the board. A one size fits all policy can't work.
130

Ewan M,

11/03/2009 12:47:44
Another day of SNP failure - nothing new there.
131

Grahamski,

Falkirk 11/03/2009 12:55:54
145
Agreed, I don't believe this is a problem which needs new legislation. Education is the key here. That and it should be the number one priority of our political leaders to build a society where our kids aren't marginalised, hopeless and so disllusioned that they feel the need to get out their heads.
This legislation fails to address these problems and the SNP should drop them.
132

alanh,

ek 11/03/2009 13:01:48
#137 graham
"Of course we know the answer, buckie and alcopops will not be affected by this legislation.
I'd really like somebody to explain to me why under these proposals me buying three bottles of very acceptable red for a tenner will be illegal while the price of a drunken wee ned's tipple of choice remains unchanged.
This is madness and it further underlines just how out their depth this current discredited Holyrood administration is"

Imo bogof deals and "specials" like 3 for a tenner are a big problem in our country. They simply encourage people to overindulge. Maybe not you since you are such a responsible citizen but many others. That is the best part of the minimum pricing policy for me.
Yep some of us may suffer but it will make our society better and the town we live in a place where we may be able to walk the streets at night , if we want to.
It also may encourage some people to return to our pubs that are really struggling at the moment and then they can drink socially and responsibly, rather than getting bladderred on cheap stuff before going out.
Its a pity that we will not see the over 21s rule as well for off sales cos that too would mean 18-21s would have to drink in the pub thus learning social , responsible drinking that people like alternative fuelhead wants rather than getting drunk in parks/houses and street corners
Imo this is a good thing and something positive FOR our country and shows us that our govt is more in touch with the real world than the unionist alliance that opposes with no alternatives
133

Observer,,

Glasgow 11/03/2009 13:02:26
151 I doubt that they will drop it, but there is a breathing space now. It will be interesting to see what the other parties can come up with during the coming year.
134

St.George,

11/03/2009 13:06:38
157. Ofcourse you will,you billious tw=t.
135

St.George,

11/03/2009 13:08:34
Did salmond get cold feet? or is he just a full of sh=t!
136

St.George,

11/03/2009 13:12:32
159. OR COULD IT BE THAT THE SNP ARE BRAINLESS WONDERS! who don't give a damn about Scotland,but sure give a damn about causing as much conflict with westminster as they possibly can.
137

St.George,

11/03/2009 13:13:58
163. And i'm out to throttle the life out of the snp!
138

Grahamski,

Falkirk 11/03/2009 13:14:13
Alan,
I didn't realise that part of this policy was to stop us enjoying good wine at a reasonable price. I suspect that the SNP would deny this as it is a certain vote loser.
Nobody disagrees with the SNP when they identify alcohol abuse as a serious problem in our country. However, I disagree with the SNP's proposed solution as I find it simplistic and reactionary. Just like the party itself, really.
139

Hugh Roscombe,

11/03/2009 13:15:53
160 St George

Hi kimba!
140

Hugh Roscombe,

11/03/2009 13:23:16
St George is probably UKIP.
141

alanh,

11/03/2009 13:27:50
#167 graham
"I didn't realise that part of this policy was to stop us enjoying good wine at a reasonable price. I suspect that the SNP would deny this as it is a certain vote loser.
Nobody disagrees with the SNP when they identify alcohol abuse as a serious problem in our country. However, I disagree with the SNP's proposed solution as I find it simplistic and reactionary. Just like the party itself, really."

Unfortunately because of the reluctance of past administartions/govts to even attempt to try to do anything about the level of alcohol abuse in our country, graham, the majority will suffer thru higher prices to stem the problems from the minority. Its a shame but if it helps our society is it too high a price to pay? Imo NO
Part of the proposal is more eductaion but as you know that will take time and something is needed NOW to reclaim our streets.
Unfortunatley, for you and a lot of others, this is the only proposal on the table from any of our parties. Do you, or they have an alternative plan/proposal? Nothing that I have seen. Or do we simply get nothing done and the situation worsen simply because its an snp policy? That , to me, is unacceptable.
Oppose yes but only with some alteranative not just cos its from the current govt. That , for me, is what our opposition still fail to grasp. Until they do they will , and should imo, remain in opposition
142

IainGlasgow,

11/03/2009 13:28:10
There is no escaping the fact that people in Scotland drink too much. Be honest with yourself, how often do you exceed 3-4 units of alcohol a day?

50p more on the price of a bottle of wine or 20p on a can of beer is not going to break anyone's bank but the attention it will draw should encourage people to think more about their drinking habits. It is not a problem that's isolated to teenagers who think its cool or hard to drink either. I think we also need lengthy prison sentences fo those who supply alcohol to under 18s - infact it should be made as serious a crime as drug dealing. You can get the jail for selling fireworks to under 18s and while an individual firework is far more dangerous in the wrong hands, teenage drinking probably does alot more damage overall.

Drink is a major social problem in Scotland. A&E units on Friday and Saturday nights are full of the fall out from drink fuelled violence. We also have this 'go on, take a drink!' culture that doesn't 'allow' someone to ask for a soft drink in a pub unless they have a 'valid' excuse (i.e. they brought the car, they're pregnant or they're on prescription medication).

Look around Glasgow and it won't take you long to find empty beer cans or buckie bottles lying around. I don't think I've ever been on a train between Glasgow and London (a journey I make fairly often) without seeing a group of drunk Scottish guys and franky it makes me embarassed to BE Scottish.

Supermarkets selling stacks of 24 packs at the entrance like its a liquidation sale (no pun intended) is simply not acceptable. Maybe at Christmas that's okay but not all year round.

The extra money shouldn't just go into the drinks companies profits thought - it should be fully taken as tax to pay for alcohol education initiatives.

The issue has been avoided by politicians and civic leader for years. Hats off to the SNP for having the guts to tackle it.
143

St.George,

11/03/2009 13:32:25
169. Who the hell is kimba? This "kimba" person certainly got a few of you hot under the collar! Hate to disapoint but I'm male,married with 3 kids.
144

Hugh Roscombe,

11/03/2009 13:34:29
179 St kimba

No you're not. We have the power to decode......
145

Dunfesterin,

11/03/2009 13:46:58
So there we go.... no-one on here knows whether or not drink is going up or down, so why blindly support the measure??

BTW, you say a 6 pack of beer is worse than a 15% bottle of buckie? Really?

I can drink a 6 pack of tennants and not feel drunk, but after a full bottle of buckie I tend not to be in control of my faculties.

I think a 15% strength wine is FAR more dangerous than 6 cans of lager!!

Face it - the problem isn't with it being too cheap, it's the POTENCY of the drink that is the problem, and the fact we as a society are SUPPOSED to get steaming every weekend. It's our culture - thats what needs to be changed.

When I first moved to Glasgow I rarely drank, but I found thats all people do here for their social lives, in the main. It all revolves round the pub.
146

Publius,

London 11/03/2009 13:46:58
#123 Joe
You write "We have at least 12 months to stock-up or plan our routes South"

I don't think minimum pricing will happen because, almost certainly, it is not allowable under EU rules. But even if it does, not many people will need to plan their routes south. An enormous amount of traffic crosses the border every day - especially on Friday afternoon/evening with Scots (like me) coming home for the weekend - some in their estate cars and white vans. We'll bring our weekend drinks with us. If you are planning your route south, Tesco Carlisle is at M6 junction 43. And there are probably supermarkets and offlicences on the road into Carlisle from junction 44.

#101 Miss H
Are you the same Miss H who assured us on this board that the numbers for LIT added up and the SNP would never abandon it?
147

BIG EYE,

Paisley 11/03/2009 13:53:31
Johnston Press shares fall below 6p with a warning that advertising revenue in 2009 could drop by 25% or more.

Keep it up lads your doing a grand job with your anti SNP bias, wit a success you guys are going to be down at the brew!
148

AJM,

11/03/2009 13:53:47
#101 MIss H surely what the opposition parties have done is make this something of any election issue. Something that once there is a closer scrutiny on the proposal problems such as the price of buckfast will be hard to ignore.

I agree something needs to be done, it is this measure was in my opinion not going to work. But looks like that argument is for another day. Especially as it is my view that it will now be kicked into the long grass. What is Kenny now going to do?
149

Publius,

London 11/03/2009 13:54:34
#176 alanh
You write "Part of the proposal is more eductaion but as you know that will take time and something is needed NOW to reclaim our streets".

Agreed. There is a law against being drunk and disorderly in public place. The SNP could begin by enforcing it. Much better than playing to the gallery and wasting public money by trying to push a new through Holyrood.
150

Grahamski,

Falkirk 11/03/2009 13:54:37
177

You claim that:

"The issue has been avoided by politicians and civic leader for years. Hats off to the SNP for having the guts to tackle it."

That is palapable nonsense. The previous executive was concerned that the existing licensing legislation didn't take into account the changes in drinking culture so they set up a committee to review the Act. Most but not all of the recommendations of that review found its way into the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005 which received Royal Assent on 21 December 2005.

Why do the nats insist on peddling easily dismissed untruths?
151

Miss H,

11/03/2009 13:56:15
162 I agree that no party has the solution to what is a cultural problem.

Having said that I get tired of the comment that drink is a cultural problem. Yes it is - but you could say the same of many problems.

Teenage pregnancy is a cultural problem. Drug addiction is a cultural problem. Low educational attainment is a cultural problem.

These are all cultural problems. They are also political problems.

Politicians can’t solve them on their own - but equally the problems will not be solved without some pretty robust intervention from government.

Labour and the Lib Dems had eight years to do something about our national drink problem. They did absolutely nothing other than reiterate over and over again that we have to change our attitudes to alcohol, we need a cultural change blah blah blah.

That is the danger with labelling drnk a 'cultural' problem, it gets politicians off the hook.


152

alanh,

ek 11/03/2009 13:56:45
#182 Dunfesterin
"So there we go.... no-one on here knows whether or not drink is going up or down, so why blindly support the measure??"

some booze will go up.
But the best part is that bogof and "special" loss leader deals will go up.
You ask why blindly support the measures.
I have said repeatedly on here, it is the ONLY PROPOSAL on the table, with NO alternatives from any other party.
Education is part of the proposal but that is long term.
We need something workable now as we are losing the right to walk our own streets at night as well as all the costs to the NHS and our people.
So instead of simple negativity give us an alternative if you are so opposed to this one
153

Miss H,

11/03/2009 13:59:50
187 187 In case anyone falls for your historical revisionism the previous Exec LIBERALISED licensing laws.

Labour and the Lib Dems have been good friends to the drinks industry. No-one would deny that. They did hee haw to deal with the consequences of over consumption however.
154

alanh,

ek 11/03/2009 14:02:09
#186 Publius
"Agreed. There is a law against being drunk and disorderly in public place. The SNP could begin by enforcing it. Much better than playing to the gallery and wasting public money by trying to push a new through Holyrood."
Is this a new law? Then why has the problem grown over the last 10-20, years while this law is around?
Agreed more money could be spent on increasing the numbers of police on the beat.
To me tho it should be in conjunction with these proposals that will also help the situation and sends out a clear message that overindulgence aint big or clever.
So basically are your saying publius that there is no need for any new legislation?????
155

Miss H,

11/03/2009 14:02:24
186 Publius as long as you think the problem of alcohol consists solely of people being drunk and disorderly in the street you will never get this debate.
156

Dunfesterin,

11/03/2009 14:03:15
I am not opposed to price rises if they would help curb the drinking culture of Scotland.

You know and I know that raising prices of booze won't make a shred of difference, ergo it's pointless.

My alternative solution is to make drunkenness seem unattractive. Make social pariahs out of drunks and those who drink to get drunk, like back in our father's and grandfather's era. Name and shame those put in the cells for being drunk!

Do something like what they do on cigarette packets - show cirrhotic livers, let the buyers know the drink affects their brain performance, causes impotency etc.

I am not trolling, we need to make drinking unattractive and promote something positive to take its place.
157

The Master,

11/03/2009 14:04:04
This fiasco over alcohol policy is helpful in highlighting the ineptity of the current Nationalist adminstration to ordinary voters, if only because it's going to hit them where it hurts (and for no good reason; the SG would be quite capable of tackling the perceived alcohol problem by enforcing existing rules or through an education programme).

There's a common thread running through Nat policies, if only to the extent that they are ill thought out and unworkable in practice (poll tax 2, anyone!)
158

alanh,

ek 11/03/2009 14:04:13
#187 graham
Has the problem got better or worse since the measures that the previous administration brought in in 2005?
159

,

11/03/2009 14:04:48
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160

Observer,,

Glasgow 11/03/2009 14:05:59
Perhaps if they legalised dope we would drink less ?
161

Miss H,

11/03/2009 14:06:01
185 No - why do you think that? It hasn't been kicked into the long grass. It is 2009 now, the legislation will be on the statute book within 12 months, the election is May 2011. Some of it probably won't be in force by then but it will not be an election issue.



162

Observer,,

11/03/2009 14:06:22
Joke.
163

Miss H,

11/03/2009 14:07:55
194 All powerful as you are Master I am afaid you are wrong. You are advocating that the SNP pursues the same failed policies pursued by their predecessors.
164

Hugh Roscombe,

11/03/2009 14:08:45
Publius

"There is a law against being drunk and disorderly in public place. The SNP could begin by enforcing it"

Eh? Are the SNP now the police?

"The Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 gives local authorities the power to introduce byelaws designed to stop the drinking behaviour of some being a nuisance to others. Many local authorities have used this power to make byelaws banning drinking in public, in areas where there had previously been problems."

It is also up to individual police offers whether the drunk is arrested.
165

Miss H,

11/03/2009 14:11:38
183 I am curious Publius. If you can afford to drive up and down from London every weekend what is the obsession with cut price booze? I would have thought you could afford to pay 4.50 for a bottle of wine but you seem to be a white lightening merchant.
166

Grahamski,

Falkirk 11/03/2009 14:11:57
195
Alan,
The 2005 act doesn't come into force until September of this year.
167

alanh,

ek 11/03/2009 14:12:11
#193 dunfesterin
"My alternative solution is to make drunkenness seem unattractive. Make social pariahs out of drunks and those who drink to get drunk, like back in our father's and grandfather's era."

The "adverts" for drunken behaviour already do this. Is it helping?

"You know and I know that raising prices of booze won't make a shred of difference, ergo it's pointless."

I disagree with you.

If you have £5 and can only buy 8 cans of lager as opposed to 16 cans of lager you will not get as smashed or damage your health as much.

As for the labelling that is something that the drink's industry could do to help but wont as it would effect their profits. Altho since a lot of our drink is not made in our country I dont see how this could be enforced.
But again these proposals are long term not the short immediate impact measures that are needed
168

Thomas79,

Ayrshire 11/03/2009 14:17:32
203 Grahamski

Let me get this right, Labour were in charge from 1997/2007 and they set up a committee to deal with alcohol abuse, and as of 2009 the committee's recommendations have not yet been implemeted - and you think thats progress.

Labour are not against this because of the proposals put forward, they are against it simply because its SNP proposals.


169

alanh,

ek 11/03/2009 14:18:02
#203 graham

cheers for that I thought that an act from 2005 would have been on staute in 2005, shows how little I know d'oh.
So basically the last administration did nothing in 8 years except to open a talking shop for legislation 4 years later?
170

Number 6,

Germany 11/03/2009 14:20:01
180 Scottish unionist. As much as I enjoy your exposing of Labour sleaze, I fear you are wasting your time.

All sane Scots have marked that rabbles card come the election. What's left of their flock have struck a deal.

They have agreed to turn a blind eye to ALL labour sleaze, corruption, Lies and incompitence. In return, Labour have promised them they will never ever be left in charge of their own affairs, or their children's future.

What deal have your mob struck that allows you to ignore tory sleaze. Not in the same leauge as Labour, but outside Zimbabwe, who is ? Still, repulsive enough for you to disown them. Are the tory voters in Scotland also terrified of taking real responsibility?

What's the deal ?
171

Dunfesterin,

11/03/2009 14:28:05
AlanH - the adverts I have seen regarding the drink concentrate on showing how you make a complete fudd of yourself when you're steaming, and they appear to be aimed at the younger generation. I hate to break it to you, but some people just do not give a t*ss if they make t*ats of themselves when drunk. Its a badge of honour for neds isn't it?

I've never seen any adverts showing someone who has been a heavy drinker for most of their life telling people about their resulting health problems, have you, unlike cigs where people are on ventilators, etc.

I mean, how many teenagers know that if they binge drink weekly their chances of brain damage such as short term memory loss rise significantly? How many teens know that alcohol can give them man-breasts? Impotence? Skin problems? Cirrhosis?

Seriously, scare them and they might get a grip.
172

Hugh Roscombe,

11/03/2009 14:30:34
I think all of these proposals are to stop MSPs setting fire to curtains in hotel rooms - or having your picture taken in this state:-

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1018/552498930_2bc47c909b_o.jpg
173

Publius,

London 11/03/2009 14:32:38
#202 Miss H

For your information travelling to and fro from London is very expensive....but I don't want to lose touch with my children, in Ayr with my ex, and I do need to visit my elderly mother in Girvan.

I have no obsession with cutprice booze and I hardly ever drink wine - nasty stuff full of additives that give you a headache. I try to drink only premium beers and whiskies including single malts with a high phenol content.

My interest in this topic is only with the higher lunacy of trying to push through a law that is almost certainly illegal under EU rules and, even if legal, will lead only to folk buying their booze south of the border.

My nom de plume - Publius - has nothing to do with pubs. It was the nom de plume chosen by Madison, Hamilton and Jay, the authors of The Federalist, a set of papers written on the then new US constitution in 1788. I took to posting as Publius in 2007, because with the election of the SNP at Holyrood the US federal experience seemed a good place to look for guidance.
174

Dunfesterin,

11/03/2009 14:33:52
Regardling labelling of alcohol, if they manage to do it for cigarettes why can't they do it for drink?

Scotland does not have an indigenous tobacco industry, does it? So all cigs are imported.

Why should booze be any different?
175

Hugh Roscombe,

11/03/2009 14:35:38
What did McConnell say about this in 2005?

"Scotland's first minister has told a group of high school pupils that it is okay to get drunk "once in a while"."

How about drinks promotions Jack?

"The one thing we are going to do something really serious about is binge drinking and irresponsible drinks promotions that can help lead to that"
176

Hugh Roscombe,

11/03/2009 14:38:00
Anything else you promised in 2005 Jack?

"Far too many pub chains in particular are selling far too much booze far too cheaply and encouraging people to drink it far too quickly.

"We are go to clamp down on that and make those promotions illegal in the hope that people can enjoy a drink sensibly over the course of an evening."

Make the promotions illegal then? Wasn't it against the law in 2005 Jack?
177

beech hedge,

blairgowrie 11/03/2009 14:39:25
This stupid fixation by the justice secretary and the health secretary to impose a minimum drinks price on the poeple of Scotland beggars believe that same lot spent £36000 last year on hospitality compared to labours £18000 the previous year.I am no supporter of labour but if the snp carry on with this mad cap plan devised by McKaskill who was arrested in London for being a drunken football thug I think their days in government are numbered
178

Number 6,

Germany 11/03/2009 14:39:58
212 Hugh,

One of Labour's suggestions on their web site was....

To help celebrate "Britishness day" Since cancelled of course, people should "go drinking". Yes, they actually suggested that as a way to celebrate being British.

Is it any wonder their flock are foaming at the mouth at any suggestion their boozing could be curtailed.
179

Hugh Roscombe,

11/03/2009 14:40:08
So the laboristas are "outraged" by the SNP proposals - but our own Jack McConnell also wanted to ban promotions.

This is all very curious.
180

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 11/03/2009 14:44:19
This just confirms what most of the electorate already know. The Unionist parties are bereft of policies and their only aim is to vote down anything the scottish Government put forward on behalf of London.
Any thought that these parties represent their constituents interests has been shown as misguided to put it politly. I'm pretty confident there will be a large number of Unionist Politicians looking for alternative employment at the next Election due to their UK first policy at all costs
181

Hugh Roscombe,

11/03/2009 14:45:18
beech hedge.

Actually he wasn't arrested.

"He was held on suspicion of being drunk and disorderly."

"The Lothians region MSP was neither charged nor formally cautioned by officers"

Google it. It does help to get things correct before you post.
182

Hugh Roscombe,

11/03/2009 14:46:36
He also owned a share of a bar in Estonia. He may still do - I've no idea.
183

alanh,

11/03/2009 14:47:56
#208 dunfesterin

you may have a better advert suggestion. Altho most teenagers i know think that they are invurnerable when it comes to health and that sort of thing would happen to someone else but never them.
But that may help for a few people and could be an alternative to the present adds.
it should go with minimum prices too imo

as for the labelling, the current fags one is uk wide and easy to enforce. Unless the uk was willing to go the same way as us i dont think that proposal would be practicle. I have not seen it suggested as an alternative from any of the opposition parties tho
184

Hugh Roscombe,

11/03/2009 14:49:54
2005

These terrible unionists.

"DAVID Davidson stood down as the Tories’ Scottish health spokesman yesterday in the wake of allegations about binge drinking."

"The newspaper claimed he had been on a "five-hour binge-drinking bender" last week before slipping on the cobbles of the Royal Mile and breaking his leg."
185

Miss H,

11/03/2009 15:19:28
210 If you drink only premium beers and whiskies including single malts minimum pricing will have absolutely no effect on you.

It is a measure specifically to tackle large supermarket chains using heavy discounting of alcohol as a loss leader. Loss leading is not a new tactic obviously but the issue with using alcohol - as opposed to bread, milk, potatoes etc - as the loss leader is that alcohol is an addictive drug.

Two thirds of alcohol is now bought in supermarkets and shops with people getting tanked up on cheap booze at home before they go out - what is known as pre-loading. This leads to people drinking not only more than is safe but more than they intended to.

It's not just the SNP that is against cut price supermarket booze. For example “The ridiculous practice of the major supermarkets selling below cost for alcohol to out-price each other is reckless,
irresponsible and dangerous." CAMRA Chief Executive Mike Benner.

Or “We strongly believe that the sale of alcoholic drinks at low cost, used primarily to drive ‘footfall’ into stores, is not consistent with the promotion of responsible drinking”

Scottish and Newcastle UK submission to the Competition Commission, June 2006.






186

Baillie Guthrie,

Caithness 11/03/2009 15:28:00
I just came back from my annual trip to Kiwi and the only drunks I saw were on TV or in my front room. Usually some in South Auckland bro! if you know what I mean There are quite a few bars in Christchurch frequented by the dreaded white Pakeha jandals and long shorts baseball cap brigade and theres a lot of cannabis too, in fact you can vote for the Cannabis Party at general elections. That one's got the monster raving loony party in the sack. All in all NZ has a lot of young randy and drunken youths looking for a party and that not even peeping through the bungalow windows where giant Speight barbies are being roared through. There's quite a few domestics , knifing and murders every weekend. But so what! Humans are like that. Let's not make Scotland a nanny state.


187

The Master,

11/03/2009 15:31:15
#200 Miss H: " All powerful as you are Master I am afaid you are wrong. You are advocating that the SNP pursues the same failed policies pursued by their predecessors."

Maybe you've inadvertently highlighted the fundamental problem with your party: you think you’re a new broom and as such are only to progress radical measures (Scottish separation, poll tax 2) in the mistaken belief that there is some panacea which everyone has been overlooking for years and that you Nats have stumbled on a magic cure to perceived problems.

Talk about living in Lalaland! For the sake of all of us in Scotland, kindly give it a rest!
188

Alba Abú,

Dunedin 11/03/2009 15:33:12
It is my hope that at the next election the people of Scotland exercise their franchise by ridding us of these English puppets who call themselves an opposition. Political opposition is a must in a democracy,but these present court jesters are only for scoring political points and making a political football out of the smallest issue.
189

The Strategist,

11/03/2009 15:42:59
If I was the SNP I think I would bring in legislation on minimum alcohol prices under an emergency public health rule.... Bit like a foot n mouth movement order... It's in the public interest.
190

Davie08,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 15:50:40
A slight digression but was not one of the ideas to have a seperate booze counter in supermarkets? I seem to remember in my youth that they always did and it was a bit of a deterrent to underage buying. (They always seemed to be run by dragonladies who could tell your date of birth twenty yards from the counter). I don't see what the objection to going back to that system would be.
191

Observer,,

Glasgow 11/03/2009 16:09:23
Off topic, but the Scotsman haven't noticed that Gordon Brown said on Radio 4 that although he accepts responsibility for everything he has done for the past eleven years, he hasn't got anything to apologise for and, ''if you do not understand and othes do not understand what the problem is we are dealing with, we'll never solve it''.

Well get him. It's all our fault for being thick.
192

The Master,

11/03/2009 16:18:00
#228 Dave: " A slight digression but was not one of the ideas to have a separate booze counter in supermarkets?"

Does your wife do all the shopping? Something like your suggestion can only prolong the time many of us spend queuing (you can't tell me that supermarkets would take on extra tax specifically to man the booze counters!)

Scotland is a boozy place: its in its nature and there's not a great deal all you interfering Nats can do about it (other than re-education campaigns and stronger enforcement of existing regulations): get used to it, all you Nats out there, or you'll increasingly be labelled as anti Scottish (something I myself have become increasingly convinced of!)

The Master has spoken!
193

Destroy the Planet,

11/03/2009 16:39:52
As a republican meself i laugh at the Scottish Numpty Party, get rid of them, theyre Nulabour puppets anyway.
194

Davie08,

Edinburgh 11/03/2009 16:54:33
Master
Alas my wife is no longer with us so I do all the shopping. I appreciate that the queues in the Tesco Metro on the Southside are irksome but that is because they are clogged up with students buying falling down juice. A dedicated booze counter might actually speed things up. Nat I may be but I was pointing out that we actually used to have this system and I see no great hardship in returning to it if it keeps the neds away from the buckie. Your personal convenience does not come into it though as master this is probably a difficult concept to grasp. Now I am away to Teviot for a £1.70 pint of lager.
195

Publius,

London 11/03/2009 17:09:31
#221 Miss H

You still don't get it. The chances are that, under EU law, neither the Scottish government nor the Scottish parliament has the authority to impose minimum prices on anything, alcohol or otherwise.

It is LIT all over again. An ill-thought, and probably unconstitutional, initiative.

The only difference is that Westminster doesn't have the authority to impose minimum prices either.

196

Publius,

London 11/03/2009 17:15:11
#227 Slartibartfast

Don't drink supermarket wine. It's full of additives. If you don't believe, take a look at co-op wine bottles. They list the contents and it's scary. Stick to a decent whisky, preferably one that doesn't contain colouring and hasn't been chill-filtered. Failing that stick to a premium beer - water, malted barley, hops and quality yeast only.
197

Observer,,

Glasgow 11/03/2009 17:17:56
236 - on what basis do you think it would be illegal Publius ? Under EU law practices which restrict competition such as minumum pricing are only illegal if there is an agreement between companies or if one group enjoys a dominant position.

Clearly that would not apply here.

198

,

11/03/2009 17:22:30
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199

Observer,,

Scottish and bored 11/03/2009 17:24:00
239 Do change the record dear we have heard that one a gazillion times before.
200

Stuntman Mike,

11/03/2009 17:50:05
240 Observer: "Do change the record dear we have heard that one a gazillion times before. "

Ever asked yourself why people keep on making such vituperative comments about your little Nationalist movement, Observer? Trying to take people's drink away won't help!
201

St.George,

11/03/2009 18:09:40
According to the SNP Troll miss H we are all wrong! the snp know best(not)he (AND IT IS A HE)is totally engrossed in snp retoric.
202

Ewen Miler,

Wilts 11/03/2009 18:17:29
While I agree with minimum pricing there are some practicalities that must be resolved first:-

1) Is it against EU Competition Laws? - if it is far better to find out before "illegal" legislation is passed and we end-up getting find by the EU.
2) If booze is cheaper in England, how are you going to prevent "smuggling" and prevent people just buying it in England for consumption in Scotland?


203

Hugh Roscombe,

11/03/2009 18:18:04
242

Hi kimba!
204

The Strategist,

11/03/2009 18:30:25
The Scotsman won't bother to report this because it doesn't involve a ball but this is good news for Scottish motorsport.

http://www.btcc.net/html/generalnews_detail.php?id=1291
205

St.George,

11/03/2009 18:35:34
244. Listen mate,don't know your "kimba" troll,and if you don't understand that maybe i can knock some sense into your head.
206

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 11/03/2009 18:42:25
Thank goodness for some common sense. The SNP cannot expect to drive an ill-advised coach and horses over the majority of political and public opinion. If they had gone ahead with this rubbish piece of legislation the European Court would overturn it anyway leaving the taxpayer hugely exposed to compensation claims from breweries and distilleries etc.

The only way forward is better education. Prohibition REALLY worked in the United States didn't it?!
207

Miss H,

11/03/2009 18:50:21
236 Publius do you know how many people work at the Office of Fair Trading and at the Scottish Government?

And you know better than them?

On what basis?
208

Miss H,

11/03/2009 18:54:36
247 Time to go back to school.

Q1. What does 'prohibition' mean?
209

,

11/03/2009 19:07:58
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,

11/03/2009 19:14:07
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211

The Strategist,

11/03/2009 19:14:16
#247

Explain to me exactly how you educate a bunch of NEDS that spend most of their time pi**sed out of their tiny brains that not drinking gallons of cheap cider is a good thing....
212

Nikostratos,,

11/03/2009 19:18:50
The local store wants to sell me a drink at price i want to pay but because someone else gets Drunk the snp want to charge me more...

why don't the snp license drinkers and not the sellers no licence no drink..then those who abuse alcohol can be prevented and we who don't can be left alone.
213

,

11/03/2009 19:28:24
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214

ecosseman,

facts not propaganda 11/03/2009 19:36:11
REMEMBER THIS-NO SPITTING-NO LOITERING-NO DRINKING IN PUBLIC PLACES-NO DOGS-NO?SAME HERE!

WHY NOT BREATH TEST DRUNKS&DRUG USERS AND FINE THEM THERE AND THEN.

WHY SHOULD THE SOBER PUBLIC PUT UP WITH OUT OF CONTROL YOBS.

TEST & FINE,THATS THE ANSWER.

ROLL ON THE ELECTION.
215

Soosider,

Glasgow 11/03/2009 19:46:36
Very short sighted by opposition, you could almost think they wanted an election.
This policy is welcomed by many people, the only ones against it are the drink industry.
216

,

11/03/2009 19:47:55
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217

Stan Butler,

11/03/2009 20:12:16

Did the SNP's manifesto say they were going to increase the price of alcohol?

218

,

11/03/2009 20:24:10
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219

Charlie Ferrier,

Hamilton 11/03/2009 20:40:49
The SNP should just increase taxes on all mixer or alcopop drinks - its the simplest way - raise the taxes on the things that are causing the problems so that the money is there for the amulance at the foot of the cliff
220

Itchy,

11/03/2009 20:56:38
#4 "The public sees that the SNP are trying, with their alcohol proposals, to put the health of the nation first. "

I see that the SNP are attempting to seize control of the drinks industry and supermarkets with a totalitarian power grab worthy of Labour.
221

,

11/03/2009 21:11:13
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222

Thomas79,

Ayrshire 11/03/2009 21:32:24
're-education campaigns and stronger enforcement of existing regulations'

That has been the battle cry of politicians for 50 years. The big question is: has it worked?. Lets look at the facts:

42,500 alcohol-related hospital discharges
1,500 deaths per year
soaring rates of liver cirrhosis
the eighth highest consumption in the world

I think the answer is no, its worse actually.

So what do the opposition parties now think we should do.

They think we should use 're-education campaigns and stronger enforcement of existing regulations'

dear o dear o dear
223

,

11/03/2009 21:49:21
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224

,

11/03/2009 21:51:31
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225

Aaachtoom,

11/03/2009 23:12:26
I see the Britnat agents have been busy and taken the BBC Alba Diomhair programme of You Tube.

The Britnats are running scared, what could they have to fear when we become independent?
226

Satire above all,

12/03/2009 00:15:15
You can get it here 266..still on Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=Diomhair&aq=f
227

Hamish MacBeth,

NZ 12/03/2009 09:25:13
175 IainGlasgow, Well said mate.
228

Mike555,

Falkirk 16/03/2009 11:47:03
This what Gordon Brown said on 16th March. "We do not want the responsible, sensible majority of moderate drinkers to have to pay more or suffer as a result of the excesses of a small minority. And that's the context in which we look at the problems that the chief medical officer has raised." For once GB speaks sensibly and speaks up for the vast majority of sensible drinkers.

 

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