Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Afghanistan: PM backs strategy as war death toll increases

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 12 July 2009
GORDON Brown was last night forced to defend his strategy in Afghanistan amid a storm of criticism over the growing loss of British servicemen.
The Prime Minister claimed that British operations in Helmand were "succeeding" at the end of the worst week for British casualties on the ground since the war began in 2001.

At the end of last week eight soldiers were killed in a devastating 24
hours, including five servicemen based at Ballykinler, Co Down, who were on the same patrol. Last night the Ministry of Defence said Rifleman Daniel Hume, 22, from 4th Battalion, The Rifles was among the dead.

The family of the Berkshire-born soldier said in a statement that "since joining the army he was the happiest we had known him, he had truly found his place in the world." His commanding officer, Lt Col Rupert Jones, described the soldier as an "exceptionally gifted young man".

The MoD also said Private John Brackpool, 27, of Prince of Wales' Company, 1st Battalion Welsh Guards, was one of those killed last week. He died from a gunshot wound following a battle with insurgents near Lashkar Gah. The father-of-one, would have been celebrating his 28th birthday yesterday. Lt Col Doug Chalmers, his battle group commander, said he was a "superb soldier", who had served in Kosovo and Iraq.

Meanwhile, US President Barack Obama said that his "heart goes out to the families of those British soldiers" killed, praising the "critical" contribution the UK had made to the international coalition.

The eight deaths saw the number of Afghanistan fatalities rise to 184, overtaking the 179 recorded in the Iraq conflict. "Despite the tragic losses, morale remains high," Brown said. "I can report the assessment of the commanders on the ground: that the current operations are succeeding."

As preparations were being made for stop-the-war protests this week, David Cameron, the opposition leader, said it was a "scandal" there were not enough helicopters to transport troops.

Read Col Bob Stewart's analysis here





Page 1 of 1

 
1

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 00:11:27
How many more soldiers is this Government going to kill in a ''war'' that was senseless and un-winnable before it began.
2

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 00:17:29
There is a lot of censorship on the politics stories today. No comments on the Walter Mitty like fantasies of Andy Hayman that the SOS have printed verbatim without doing the most basic of research, and no comment on the Megrahi thread.

They just don't like it when people challenge their plss poor journalism methinks.
3

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/07/2009 00:20:32
What is the strategy in Afghanistan? Is it to stop poppies? Is it to stop domestic undesirables?

Is it to tell Afghanistan how to run its country?

Is it to look good and big and powerful on the world stage? Is it to sook up to the Yanks?
4

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 00:21:09
3 This Government put them there. Don't you remember John Reid saying there would not be a shot fired in anger ? This is different in scale but in principle this is the same as putting men over the top in WW1 or what the Americans did in Vietnam. They are sacrificing soldiers.
5

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/07/2009 00:22:50
He, he. Spot the plant.
6

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 00:23:19
To all:

Google Andy Hayman and terrorist hunter. You will get the measure of the man who is attacking the Scottish Govt.
7

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 00:24:35
8 sorry that was in reference to the hissy fit story
8

,

12/07/2009 00:25:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

nabodican,

Newton Stewart 12/07/2009 00:25:57
This government are responsible for every single one the deaths.
They are the ones that took us in to a war that cannot be won and nothing to gain even if by some miracle we did win.
Our politicians do not seem to know the meaning of "defence"
Bring our soldiers home now!!!!
10

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/07/2009 00:31:33
11,nabodican. Your post made me wonder that the Ministry of Defence is behind the troops in Afghanistan.

What a misnomer.
11

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 00:32:17
12 Andy Hayman is the man who believed that a shoot to kill policy was justified in the event of slaughtering a Brazilian electrician. Andy Hayman believes in 90 day detention. Andy Hayman is not a fan of civil liberties, and believes there should be a national anti-terrorist unit. He doesn't believe such things should be left to ''provincial whims''. Such whims I assume meaning things like not shooting innocent people in the head and respecting civil liberties.
12

hoblar,

12/07/2009 00:35:06
Some policeman selling his book has said that the Scottish Government were 'taking a hissy fit over the legal jurisdiction in relation to the trial of the Glasgow airport bombers.

The hissy fit' made the Scotsman headline, but read the end of this article:


Labour leader Iain Gray said: "It is shameful that the First Minister of Scotland should behave in such a disgraceful manner trying to exploit an incident on the scale of the Glasgow Airport attack for his own personal gain.

"It begs the question: is Alex Salmond fit for office?"

But John Neilson, the assistant chief constable of Strathclyde Police and the officer who was in charge of the operational response to the attacks, said: "I don't know of any political interference that impacted on the investigation."

A spokesman for the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service said: "This bears absolutely no resemblance to events in Scotland that weekend.

"The Lord Advocate and her team worked tirelessly with the support of the Scottish ministers over the course of the weekend of the 29th and 30th June 2007 to ensure that the complex legal issue of jurisdiction was considered quickly but authoritatively. On 2 July 2007 (two days after the Glasgow bombing] the Lord Advocate instructed that both suspects be transferred to police custody in London and that jurisdiction for the investigation be passed to the English authorities.

A Scottish Government spokesman said: "These claims are completely untrue and have no foundation whatsoever. Neither the First Minister nor the Justice Secretary had any contact or dealings with this individual, and were not involved in any of the judicial proceedings.

"Decisions on prosecution and liaison with prosecuting authorities in the rest of the UK are matters for the Lord Advocate. Scottish Ministers do not have any direct involvement in such decisions – and had no direct involvement in this case, as confirmed by both the Crown Office and Strathclyde Police.

13

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 00:37:47
''Andy Hayman is the former head of counter-terrorism at the Metropolitan Police so he clearly knows what he is talking about.''

Your deference towards the Metropolitan Police is sweet, but is unlikely to be shared by anyone who knows how these guys operate.
14

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 00:38:58
17 Well wear wellies that will prevent you from being killed by the shock.
15

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/07/2009 00:49:01
So here we have an article re the cluelessness of Broon and a plant has diverted to another article (propaganda newsletter) - which nobody can comment on.

Better to ignore and concentrate on the subject matter of this article.

Don't feed the hand that bites you.
16

,

12/07/2009 00:51:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
17

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 00:52:49
Read Gerald Warners column in the opinion section. This is a war we cannot win and we shouldn't even be there. And he actually states that Gordon Brown is dangerously deluded. Hear hear to that.
18

frank mcbride,

lusitania 12/07/2009 01:03:38
# Javier Bardem.

Andy Hayman is such a knowledgable chappy that the UK Attorney General had to prevent the publication of his book.

It would appear that Mr. Hayman does not understand that telling lies is defamatory nor, would it appear, does JP understand that reporting said lies is, also, defamation.
19

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 01:04:21
The Soviet Union lost 469,685 men in a decade.

How far is this Govt going to go ? So what happens in the incredibly unlikely event that we subdue Afghanistan? Something which no one other than Alexander the Great and Ghengis Khan have ever done (and only temporarily).

What do we then do with it ?
20

Colkitto,

River Clyde 12/07/2009 01:13:45
It's a mess, get the soldiers out RIGHT NOW !
21

Castaway™ ,

12/07/2009 01:15:25
IT'S ALL ABOUT OIL!
US Policy On Taliban Influenced By Oil Deal Negotiations
The two claim that the US government's main objective in Afghanistan was to consolidate the position of the Taliban regime to obtain access to the oil and gas reserves in Central Asia.

They affirm that until August [2001], the US government saw the Taliban regime "as a source of stability in Central Asia that would enable the construction of an oil pipeline across Central Asia" from the rich oilfields in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Kazakhstan, through Afghanistan and Pakistan, to the Indian Ocean. Until now, says the book, "the oil and gas reserves of Central Asia have been controlled by Russia. The Bush government wanted to change all that."

But, confronted with Taliban's refusal to accept US conditions, "this rationale of energy security changed into a military one", the authors claim.

"At one moment during the negotiations, the US representatives told the Taliban, 'either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs,'" Brisard said in an interview in Paris. http://tiny.cc/NYM90
22

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 01:25:17
'either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs,'"

A carpet of bombs, aye they're good at that. Military heros dropping bombs from 30,000 feet.
23

Castaway™ ,

12/07/2009 01:48:24
Afghanistan Pipeline Deal signed :27 December 2002
An agreement has been signed in the Turkmen capital, Ashgabat, paving the way for construction of a gas pipeline from the Central Asian republic through Afghanistan to Pakistan.
The building of the trans-Afghanistan pipeline has been under discussion for some years but plans have been held up by Afghanistan's unstable political situation.

The Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline (TAP or TAPI) is a proposed natural gas pipeline.The pipeline will transport Caspian Sea natural gas from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan into Pakistan and then to India
With improved regional security after the fall of the Taleban about a year ago, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan and Pakistan have decided to push ahead with plans for the ambitious 1,500-kilometre-long gas pipeline.
P.S.Part of pipeline goes through Helmand Province.
24

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 12/07/2009 01:51:05
Not allowed to comment on the "Hissy fit" article.
"I don't know of any political interference that impacted on the investigation."
"This bears absolutely no resemblance to events in Scotland that weekend."
"On 2 July 2007 (two days after the Glasgow bombing] the Lord Advocate instructed that both suspects be transferred to police custody in London"
"Neither the First Minister nor the Justice Secretary had any contact or dealings with this individual"
"Scottish Ministers do not have any direct involvement in such decisions – and had no direct involvement in this case"

Looks like this man has written a pack of lies - and he was in overall charge of Counter-Terrorism Command and Special Branch - how comforting to find out that lies come so easily to such a person in such a position.
25

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/07/2009 02:04:22
29, my son, the whole article would be be described in military parlance as by "brainwashed thickoes".

Talking of which, time for bed.
26

,

12/07/2009 02:19:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
27

,

12/07/2009 04:18:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
28

,

12/07/2009 05:35:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

For Scotland,

Sutherland 12/07/2009 06:06:40
Well Brown thinks the strategy is working? working for who?
What strategy? ,the one where our troops are being killed practically daily now?
Fact there is no strategy we are sacrificing lives wantonly in pursuit of what?
Is easy as a politician to stand and spout codswallop which he does at every turn,we have been there before generations previously have died in that place they call Afghanistan.
When will people realise that Afghanistan is not a nation it is a collection of tribes many nomadic that have no idea of nationhood nor want to.
We are allowing politicians to waste lives in trying to change a mind set of people millions of people,is time this stopped and commonsense prevailed,our troops signed up for defence of the realm not to be fodder for politicians mindless goals.
Brown and the whole lot of all parties disgust me is easy to sacrifice lives when they are not your own or your families.
Bring our troops home to do the job they were meant to now.
30

Queen D,

12/07/2009 06:35:11
Apparently the oil is just bubbling out of puddles in Kazakhstan, a handy wee pipeline is just the dab!

I am so glad that G Brown thinks the strategy is working, he must be the only one.
There again I watched Jock Strap ( I would have changed my name!)giving an " up and at 'em!" type talk on ITN News , from a comfy office of course, and in support of the Government stance.

Re hissy fits , I don't think I would have reported this tale, anymore than the Guardian/BBC tale of tapping phones.They have their foundations in pretty wet sand, if not quicksand.

There may be trouble ahead , sing along now!
31

steve 1511,

aberdeen 12/07/2009 07:03:49
people no longer believe a word that come out of browns or a labour ministers mouth,they lied to take us to war and still they lie
32

dunedin bully wee 1877,

12/07/2009 07:23:57
"Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori, sed dulcius pro patria vivere, et dulcissimum pro patria bibere. Ergo, bibamus pro salute patriae"
(Wilfred Owen)

Suas Alba!
33

Tynietiger,

12/07/2009 07:47:31
On SoS's hissy fit weekly anti SNP story, the Met is totally discredited and were obviously not interested in the legal fact that there is a separate jurisdiction in Scotland called Scots Law.

Why is it senior police officers are appointed in Scotland without knowledge of the legal jurisdiction they are supposed to operate under?
34

Iain Percival,

Black Isle 12/07/2009 07:56:16
Rudyard Kipling's words still ring true:

If your officer's dead and the sergeants look white,
Remember it's ruin to run from a fight:
So take open order, lie down, and sit tight,
And wait for supports like a soldier.

Presumably the soldier in question these days hopes support arrives in the shape of (i) a PM devoid of hum bug, (ii) a defence secretary who stays in the job more than a few months and actually understands the issues, (iii) sufficient helicopters available and working, (iv) ground transport which can withstand the effect of these IEDs (and has the technology to detect them).
Let us hope not many suffer......

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

Finally, in respect to the political leadership our service personnel are not getting, maybe the words of Mark Twain apply:
"Imagine you are stupid. Imagine you are a COngressman. I repeat myself"
35

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 12/07/2009 07:59:33
Maggie Brown strategy in Afghanistan must be right - Obama has said so.

http://tinyurl.com/laf2q7

The picture I get of their relationship is Brown humping Obama's leg like a wee annoying dog.
36

Jimmy Le Pie,

12/07/2009 08:27:34
And I see from the Mail on Sunday that a group of doctors are calling for a full inquest into the death of Doctor David Kelly.

http://tiny.cc/CYUQN

This rotten, corrupt and dishonourable government's hands are dripping with blood.

Still it looks like Comrade Blair won't be getting the EU presidency he craves so much. Too much blood maybe??

http://tiny.cc/7pWJp

37

John Cameron,

St Andrews 12/07/2009 08:27:40
Forces families are joining the growing body of opinion in this country that our presence in Afghanistan is pointless. I have boy in the army who has fought out there and I certainly believe his friends have died in vain. This war cannot be won because the country is ungovernable. Our only option is to get out as soon as possible. Yesterday, David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, stated that the purpose of the war was to "ensure that Afghanistan can never again become an incubator for terrorism and a launching pad for attacks on Britain". That is complete cobblers and in his heart of hearts Miliband must know he is simply mouthing the spin and lies required by his loathsome master, Gordon Brown. Like Vietnam, the Taliban can win by not losing. That is an impossible military situation. What are we going to do? Kill ALL the people in Afghanistan? ZANU Labour is also never going to provide the equipment that British soldiers need. Brown continues to insist, in the teeth of all the evidence, that our Armed Forces are the best equipped in the world. Tellingly he has put off the defence review, which could be used to ensure our troops were properly equipped, until after the next election. The war in Afghanistan is NOT being fought in the national interest. It is being fought for the benefit of ZANU Labour to cover up the past idiocies of Brown and Blair. That is the scandal that lies at the heart of this scandalous war.
38

Jimmy Le Pie,

12/07/2009 09:03:43
Looks like another ex New Labour Sleaze sponger is putting the boot into Comrade Broon's discredited cabal.


"GORDON BROWN’S government is more “chaotic” than many administrations in the developing world, according to one of his Foreign Office ministers.

Lord Malloch-Brown, who quits his ministerial post this month, told colleagues he had seen better “strategic thinking” in Latin America and southeast Asia than at No 10.

Malloch-Brown, who worked as a political consultant and United Nations deputy secretary-general before he was offered a peerage and ministerial job by Brown, told colleagues he found Westminster politics “disappointingly shortsighted”. "


http://tiny.cc/TXX7O
39

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 12/07/2009 09:15:03
If the justification for the Iraq war was based on a lie, this Afghan one is even more tenuous and based on poodle-like oveisance to first George Bush and now an even more protrate Brown licks up everything Obama offers. This is a Bliar/Brown face-saver war.

What strategy?
Democaratic elections? In that event we'd invade China!

Oil piepline? Quite likely - but why are we expending
British lives for American commercial intrests?

Security? No. Killing Taleban will make no difference to domestic terrorism. Tightening up our Border controls would, as would more assertive pursuit and expulsion or jailing of terrorists already established in this country. Then the expulsion of all illegal immigrants without compensation or "human rights". Since when did the human rights of criminals come before the security of our own state? Yet in that strategy Brown is clear - he will try to kill Taleban on home ground with serious loss of life but refuses to clean up his own back yard. His mendacious pursuit of all that is wrong in economic and military terms is quite staggering.

Cameron seems to be quite complicit in the "strategy" and needs to get off the fence, get the troops back, admit diplomatically we were wrong and sort out the domestic security situation fast.
40

dunedin bully wee 1877,

12/07/2009 09:18:28
RE “SNP hissy-fits”

“Hayman writes:............Over the next week a disproportionate amount of effort was directed towards convincing the Scottish First Minister and his Attorney General that it was right to hand the case to London."

First of all, there is no such post as “Attorney General” in the Scottish legal system.

The second point of note is that on 2 July 2007 (two days after the Glasgow bombing] the Lord Advocate (of Scotland) instructed that both suspects be transferred to police custody in London and that jurisdiction for the investigation be passed to the English authorities.

So what are Mr Hayman’s motivations for making these bizarre and obviously totally unfounded allegations?
41

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

12/07/2009 09:38:21
Morning all.

Well, I don't think I can add owt to the comments on this story as I agree pretty much to what has aleady been said;

We shouldn't be there
It's an illegal war (again)
It's an unwinable war: #46 said it "Like Vietnam, the Taliban can win by not losing" (well said sir, hope your boy comes thru ok)
Did I not read somewhere that opium production has increased since we went in?

And it's 1.2.3. what are we fighting for? Don't ask me, I don't give a damn, about Afghanistan . . .

As regards the "Hissy Fit" story we are not allowed to comment on (hem hem):

Surely the SoS, by publishing part of the Banned A.Hayman book, is gonna be in a whole heap o' sh!t for doing so! I can't comment on the politics of it all because I'm jus' an iggerant white southern boy, yessir!

As for Mr Hayman's preferred anti-terrorism policies. they disgust me.

They shot that Brazilian 6/7 Times inna Face - from 3 or 4 feet away!

Ripe Melon Moment, let me tell you!

All you who support what they did need to take a look at your Soul, cos sure as sh!t you don't have a spotless one!!

I can tell you also that the Polis down here do NOT like it being mentioned, in fact it can get you arrested in the right circumstances . . .
42

tassiestag,

rosebery 12/07/2009 09:53:16
no one has won a war in afghanistan................read your history,get out and get out now.
43

Boab,

12/07/2009 10:03:40
#26 Castaway: Yes, this war is about oil, same as Iraq. 9/11 and 7/7 were carried out by Saudis, UK citizens and high-level al-Qaeda operatives. There are the al-Qaeda training camps across the Pakistan border, but as far as I know these are in the East, a long way from Helmand.

'Cost of war in Afghanistan soars to £2.5bn':

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/13/afghanistan-iraq-bill-british-military

'By 2011, Britain will be spending £3.5bn a year on counter-terrorism, the Home Office has said.'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7960466.stm

Can't we just stay home and give every single person in the UK £100 per year to spend on flak jackets?
44

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

12/07/2009 10:14:08
One wonders if Johnston Press will auction off the A.Hayman book inna raffle or summat.

That's gonna be a real rarity in years to come: 1st Ed, Deleted, Mint Condition . . .

Who gets to keep it?
45

Desmo,

Lumphinnans 12/07/2009 10:18:59
#49 Bully Wee

"What are his motivations.......?"

He has a book to sell and it won`t have escaped his notice that you can drum up a lot of publicity up here if you spice things up by giving them an anti-SNP slant.

Begs the question, should serving police officers be allowed to write books about their responsibilities in high office.

I would also question the wisdom of his article in the News of the Boors today.

We pay this individual to be a copper, not Murdoch`s facillitator.
46

livilion,

livingston 12/07/2009 10:21:21
#52 tassiestag,rosebery

Not strictly true, the Allies did gub the Taliban on the battlefield but failed to follow up on their promises to rebuild the country.
But we have lost the battle for hearts and minds in a country where the AK47 and RPG are more popular than tv.

Even a fraction of the $billions we are now being forced to pour into that unfortunate region would have given the poppy growers something else to do, it could have educated their kids and given them opportunities to aspire to, but of course there were no media headlines, or votes to be won, from carrying on up the Kyber.

Instead we dropped the Afghans like hot tattys to chase the latest 'combat opportunity' and media event in Iraq, for which Honest Tony had the RAF in Northern Turkey preparing for, a full year before 'WMDs ready at 45 minutes' ever hit the headlines.
47

livilion,

livingston 12/07/2009 10:37:58
53 Boab,

Never mind, we can all take comfort from knowing that our troops in the front line don't need logistics helicopters or more adequately protected combat vehicles and boots on the ground since they and we have the protection of our nuclear deterrents based on the Clyde.
They would have to be some kind of fanatic to tangle with an army with our kind of nuclear firepower, and when our new aircraft carriers are ready, if our satelites spot any of these insurgents hiding on somebody's roof somewhere we'll be able to just drop one of our Tridents down their lum.
That'll make their eyes water.

Lions led by (Brown)asses?
48

Herry Oaksters,

12/07/2009 10:55:11
49.
Hayman is just another unionist liar.
49

dunedin bully wee 1877,

12/07/2009 11:21:54
55 Desmo,

I suspect that Mr Hayman has not been a serving police officer since he was forced to resign/retire from the police in December 2007 at the ripe old age of 48.

I do not particularly mind him trying to publicise his apparently “banned” book, as long as both he and his publishers are prepared to pay the damages following any subsequent legal action taken against them.

Of course the “Scottish Attorney General” would not initiate any such legal proceedings, as there is no such person.

50

,

12/07/2009 11:29:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
51

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 12/07/2009 11:35:03
I wanted to add this comment to the LibDem scandal, but can't.

Just read an article on an interview Jacqui Smith gave the Guardian, saying the "Porn" story will never go away. She said her husband was deeply embarrassed. "He tried to make it up to me.... But HE'S HAD A HARD TIME AS WELL" - well, yea, we at least hope he did.
52

,

12/07/2009 11:40:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
53

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 12:23:59
2
Observer

"There is a lot of censorship on the politics stories today. No comments on the Walter Mitty like fantasies of Andy Hayman that the SOS have printed verbatim without doing the most basic of research, and no comment on the ."

There are obvious legal reasons for not allowing comments on the "Megrahi thread". The ongoing appeal means that the case is still active.

The appalling "hissy fit" piece is somewhat different. Hayman's book has been withdrawn from sale following an injunction granted to the Attorney General. Some copies of the book are in circulation, however, and Johnston Press will be concerned that someone might post some of the material which was the undisclosed reason for the injunction.

This provides a convenient excuse to avoid or minimise much of the condemnation that is due to SoS for publishing such a shamelessly dishonest anti-Scottish government smear.

54

Jimmy Le Pie,

12/07/2009 12:27:14
Suggestions that there should be a UK wide anti-terrorist force, only answerable to the Home Secretary, is another good reason why Scotlands needs to become independent from the police state these idiots are working towards.

55

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 12:32:28
5
Jock Tamson

"What is the strategy in Afghanistan?"

The only "strategy" is to avoid the political embarrassment of admitting the whole thing is a shambles for as long as possible.

Afghanistan has been at the centre of imperialist power games for centuries. No foreign power has ever managed to "subdue" the country. As the Soviets learned to their great cost, the longer they are in-country, the worse their situation becomes.

There is no ultimate objective. No definable "victory" is possible. There is no exit strategy.

People are dying for no better cause than political face-saving. Some of these people are UK service personnel.

56

Jimmy Le Pie,

12/07/2009 12:33:44
And on the Hayman story, is it not typical of New Labour Sleaze and Corruption's resident half-wit, Comrade Gray, is straight in trying to gain a few pathetic brownie points???

I can't wait for election time!!!
57

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 12:50:39
56
livilion

"Not strictly true, the Allies did gub the Taliban on the battlefield but failed to follow up on their promises to rebuild the country."

Fair point. But it does not alter the fact that the war is unwinnable in the sense that there is absolutely no possibility of an ultimate, decisive military victory.

Whether there is now any possibility of some alternative form of "victory" is questionable. As you say, opportunities were squandered for want of imagination and political will. The clock cannot be turned back.

58

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 12:52:55
58
Herry Oaksters

"Hayman is just another unionist liar."

He is worse. He is not lying for some political purpose, however misguided. He is lying for personal gain.

59

peteraberdeenshire,

aberdeenshire 12/07/2009 13:06:58
Watch the video of the Help for Heroes and watch the emotion on the faces of the service personnel and their families, read any book by a soldier who has served and fought in Iraq or Afghanistan then ask yourself is it worth it. If our men and women feel that this is not their fight then bring them home immediately, is our national security at risk from the Taliban?
Personally speaking I would rather our soldiers were used for defence nothing else, if we have armed forces that are never used then so much the better. I am a supporter of independence but the armed forces have my total unconditional support and the death of even one of them be they English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh in Afghanistan or Iraq is too high a price to pay for our politicians to pretend that Britain is still a global power.
60

TWC,

exLabour 12/07/2009 13:41:54
I see we've got the usual Labour Plant on here supporting this useless war and this useless Polis Hayman.
Bring the boys home now
61

scully,

colchester 12/07/2009 14:06:19

41*

Brilliant.
62

scully,

Colchester 12/07/2009 14:14:08

I was attacked by terrorist in the early eighties and left for dead. But I remembered two people who helped me. one a Doctor and one a Policeman. The Doctor put her arms around me and said. Don, worry you will come throe this for you have got God with you they don't. And God will never forgive them for what they did to you
63

scully,

Colchester 12/07/2009 14:20:36
The Policeman said don't worry Mum you will come throe this. You have got God with you , they don't.. and even if it takes 30 years we will find out who did this to you and why. We may not be able to bring them to justice, but a least you will know who did it and why. We did find out and yes they were above the law and could not be brought to justice. But I can tell you this it was not Islam , nor was it the Taliban.. The Enemy was within.It took a good many years to recover. But recover I did. Thanks to a great Husband and Sons.who nursed me throe the whole traumatic experience.
64

scully,

Colchester 12/07/2009 14:33:21
Now to put the record strait . it may help to save our young Military Peoples lives I don't know. I don't even know it the Scotsman will allow this comment. But Here goes.

The Guilty were Margaret Thatcher and The 22 committee and the Extreme right wing of the Conservatives, The Royal Family . The Queen Mother and Margaret the Main Culprits. They wanted proof after death. The Church. Runcie tried to help. But he stood up in chrurch with the Royal Family present , and asked God to take everything he have given to me and give it to the Queen as she was in a better position to use it.. when they were found out. a Big whitewash Job was done. They said the Royal Family must be saved at all cost, and I was a working class nobody. So Hence they tried to put Di Spencer in my Place. you have all the truth now.The Journalist know the truth . but were not alloed to help me or my family.
65

scully,

Colchester 12/07/2009 14:38:19
PM Wilson and George Brown tried to help. unfortunately Brown died of a heart attack and Wilson was discredited.. Now would you trust Brown or Any on them. Not Me. Em waiting for God. Let the journalist tell the truth. For only the truth will save you now.. The Spirits work is done, only those that deserve it. will see it.
66

Jimmy Le Pie,

12/07/2009 14:40:32
I see New labour Sleaze and Corruption are putting the boot into Comrade Broon again!!!!

From the BBC,

"Senior female Labour MPs have hit out at Gordon Brown for a government style which they say excludes women.

Ex-Health Secretary Patricia Hewitt told BBC Radio 4 that there was a "laddish" culture inside No 10.

And Caroline Flint, who resigned saying Mr Brown treated women as "window dressing", said female ministers were "picked out" for hostile briefings."


Another leadership challenge coming???

Like ferrets in a sack and that's not being fair to ferrets!!
67

scully,

Colchester 12/07/2009 14:46:32


The Scotsman newspaper had the courage to allow these Comments to be posted.I know how the young Military Peoples family,s feel. I lost lost my son to throe injustice.. I now also have a heart that wont heal.My Son was Policeman. an Untouchable. He could not be Bought , Bribed ,or Corrupted. It cost him his live. He once told a Conservative MP he was not for Sale.The MP concerned will still remember when he came to Colchester to bribe my son/ back in 1991
68

morris,

edinburgh 12/07/2009 16:13:14
78

Sandra White is correct

The level of interest in cricket in Scotland is slightly above sweet francis adams ,and if you dont know that then you have no right to tell anybody anything!

On the matter of DIAGEO what are Labour doing about it?

Des Browne knows he is as much use as a chocolate fire gaurd and the job he seeks to protect is his own.



69

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 16:25:02
78
Javier Bardem

Just when you think the Tory/BLP alliance attacks on the Scottish government cannot get any more desperate and childish, up steps Javier Bardem to put you right.

This fool appears to believe that, because he is capable of holding no more than one thought in his head at a time, everybody else must be similarly afflicted.

The fool is so small-minded that he cannot even see that the comments about cricket are merely a perfectly valid vehicle for pursuing the far more significant issue of control of broadcasting in Scotland.

And the fool is so utterly petty he intrudes on a thread about the murderous disaster in Afghanistan with his inane amateur politicking.

70

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 16:37:43
84 Can't you read your own posts ? Go back and read what you posted at #78. You are arguing with yourself and losing.
71

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 16:38:49
Anyway your comments have got hee haw to do with the subject of this article - why don't you go and play on the sports pages.
72

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 16:41:12
84
Javier Bardem

"The Ashes is only live on Sky."

How dumb is that? You quote the bit where the matter is explained to you. Then you go on to prove that you still totally fail to comprehend.

Truly, you are an idiot.

73

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 16:42:38
87
Observer

"...why don't you go and play on the sports pages."

What have you got against them?
74

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 16:45:18
89 Anyone who is talking about ''hard core'' cricket doesn't belong on a politics thread.
75

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 16:45:26
87
Observer

"Anyway your comments have got hee haw to do with the subject of this article..."

Correct. Might I suggest we treat this intruder as the troll it so evidently is, and ignore it.

76

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 16:47:27
90 You started the argument re: Andy Hayman so it's uncalled for to criticise posters for responsing. I know I go off topic, but it's generally related in some way to the article.
77

Cormacksdad,

Dunfermline 12/07/2009 16:47:44
I have a lot of fun reading these threads and rarely comment. However, Javier.........STFU. You are truly an @rse.
78

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 16:48:34
76
Jimmy Le Pie

"Ex-Health Secretary Patricia Hewitt told BBC Radio 4 that there was a "laddish" culture inside No 10."

That would seem to tie in with the warmongering.

79

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 16:50:05
95
Observer

"I know I go off topic, but it's generally related in some way to the article."

And, I might add, even you off-topic comments generally make sense.

80

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 16:50:37
94 OK can I explain this to you and then drop the subject? Sandra White was complaining about broadcasting excessive coverage of cricket on *terrestrisl* telly. Now there may be a group of people who follow cricet but they can get it on Sky (as you have pointed out). It is not appropriate for *terrestrial* telly to put out coverage of a minority sport disproportionate to the numbers of people who watch it.

Me, I don't give two hoots I never watch any sports coverage so I don't care. But that's the point that Sandra was making.
81

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 16:51:09
96
Cormacksdad

"I have a lot of fun reading these threads and rarely comment. However, Javier.........STFU. You are truly an @rse."

Good to hear from the "silent majority".

82

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 16:52:59
101
Observer

"...that's the point that Sandra was making."

As a way of making the more general point about brining greater control of broadcasting back to Scotland.

83

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 16:54:08
103
Javier Bardem

"No I never."

Dry your tears and grow up! You pathetic little nyaff!

84

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 16:55:46
103 ''No I never''

Please.

Well let's get it back on topic then.

Gerald Warner has written that the Soviet Union lost 469,685 men in a decade in Afghanistan. That seems an extraordinary figure to me. How many men are the UK going to lose before we pull out too ?
85

Cormacksdad,

Dunfermline 12/07/2009 16:58:31
102
Electric Hermit,

Cheers. The 'Silent Majority' are alive and kicking. We tend not to get involved until the last moment. That moment is coming! Brown and his ilk will have their day in court. As an ex serviceman I feel that these wars are hideous.
86

dunedin bully wee 1877,

12/07/2009 16:59:09
90 Javier Bardem (Rufus)

Who is this Andy Hayton guy?

Does he play at cricket, and if so, who for?
87

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 17:05:25
107
Observer

"Gerald Warner has written that the Soviet Union lost 469,685 men in a decade..."

That seems to be the figure for those incapacitated by injury of disease. The number killed was in the region of 15,000. This represents around 1,500 a year. Far higher than UK losses. But then the Soviets had a vastly larger force deployed. It would be interesting to see how the percentages compare.

88

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 17:08:38
108
Cormacksdad

"As an ex serviceman I feel that these wars are hideous."

You are far from alone. It is perhaps unfortunate that it takes so many deaths in such a short time to focus people's minds. But if these deaths lead to a situation where our political leaders are never again allowed to involve us in irresponsible and doomed foreign wars, they will not have died in vain.



89

English Voice,

12/07/2009 17:11:02
109. Javier Rufus

who ho Rufus! Another incredible, dedicated binge at the cyber posting I see! 00.18am, right through the small hours and all day, posting your incomprehensible, bitter, ludicrous and ill informed tripe!

Fantastic job, and we in the Unionist camp are as grateful as ever that your evident lack of any life whatsoever allows for your obsession with posting here in what is clearly a sad form of what psychologists would term an attempt at social interaction from a social inadequate.

Post on Rufus, post on... and just you keep on saying "Jobcentre plus, beone, begone!" We need you!

90

English Voice,

12/07/2009 17:12:59
109. Rufus says "Hermit you are an embarrassment, an utter embarrassment"

Coming from Rufus, who famously "bought" - a plasma car, a ray gun, 4 DVD players and loads of clothes, and all because of the VAT cut, this is stinging stuff indeed!

91

Cormacksdad,

Dunfermline 12/07/2009 17:14:19
112
Electric Hermit

Well put. Get them home now. Have an election and lets start putting our country back to work. (sounds like a wish-list, but thats what the Silent Majority really want).

Tea-time..
92

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 17:15:02
113
English Voice

Might I suggest that your amusing parodies would be the more amusing and effective for changing your username to "Unionist Voice". I think you will understand where I'm coming from on this.

93

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 17:16:08
115
Cormacksdad

"...sounds like a wish-list...)

Sounds like a manifesto.

94

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 17:17:53
111 Yes he seems to have added in injuries and deaths caused by conditons they were living in. And I think that the actual battlefield losses were far higher than the Soviets self-reported. One thing's for sure, it doesn't bode well for our soldiers does it. This whole thing is sickening ''those who don't learn from history are destined to repeat it'' does spring to mind.
95

Unionist Voice,

12/07/2009 17:22:43
116. Electric Hermit

well, indeed, and happy to oblige!

Avanti the voice of Unionism! Avanti rufus 24/7!!
96

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 17:23:09
118
Observer

"One thing's for sure, it doesn't bode well for our soldiers does it."

One death is too high a price to pay for the hubris of failed politicians.

And you're right. It does not bode well for our troops. I think I am correct in saying that the rate of Soviet losses increased over the duration of their campaign. If history does teach us anything, then things are going to get a lot worse while the likes of Brown and Obama keep prattling about the coming "victory".

97

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 17:23:38
119
Unionist Voice

Much better!

98

Unionist Voice,

12/07/2009 17:26:41
121. Electric Hermit

"English Voice" was one of Rufus's many, many previous monikers... I thought I would put it to better use! But I think this one is more fitting for a herald of Unionism and all its benefits!
99

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 17:32:57
120 Well what is the ''victory'' how do we measure it ? Drug production is up (not necessarily unnusual when the Americans are in town) Al Queda have the free run of the whole North Western Territories, and President Karzai, who is considered to be a shoo-in at the August election has got two notorious warlords running on his ticket as vice president and deputy vice president.

So starting off on a base line like that how soon can we expect this ''victory'' what century will it arrive in.
100

westview,

Trident? Use it or lose it. 12/07/2009 18:18:58
Any bets that the Chinese will move in when the west withdraws from the Afgan area? They need the resources and have the manpower to cross the border and hold it . Like Tibet.
101

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 18:19:54
122
Unionist Voice

""English Voice" was one of Rufus's many, many previous monikers"

I was unaware of the historical context. I cannot pretend to keep track of the amorphous "monikers" preferred by some contributors. In my own defence, I don't even try.

I applaud your effort to derive something useful from the definitive waste of energy/matter that is the one you call "Rufus". But my personal view is that your new username is a great deal more fitting.

102

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 18:22:14
124
westview

"Any bets that the Chinese will move in when the west withdraws from the Afgan area?"

I suspect the Chinese are quite content to let others bang their heads on that particular wall.

103

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 18:30:15
on Andy Hayman I see he was also involved in John De Mendes ,and the News of The World investigations.

In each of them it was The Brazilian's fault , the NoTW had done nothing wrong,and he was "vindicated" in his own mind.
104

,

12/07/2009 18:56:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
105

Tartan Bond,

12/07/2009 19:01:57
Observer # 24

That number 469,685 "lost" is complete rubbish.
You will find the statistics here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

The Soviet Army had approximately 650,000 men serve in Afghanistan, you are suggesting that they lost near 66%: complete drivel. You are falling for Salmond's appeasement mentality.
Salmond thinks that if he throws enough cash at Muslim interests that Scotland will be immune from terrorist attacks. What is true that if Salmond throws money at terrorists they will be back for more and soon!
So many British dead recently is a lot of personal tragedy, but, this is not all out war, soldiers are better protected than ever before and losses are far less than they would be if the Taliban were as well armed as our soldiers are.
106

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 19:03:14
Noval Albion the 103rd. How kind of you to grace us with your presence. And how are Nova Albion the 101st, and Nova Albion the 4th and 5th ?

107

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 19:05:55
129 Hold your horses Tartan Bond. I was quoting an article from Gerald Warner an arch Tory on the opinion page. I said it seemed an extraordinary figure to me.
My views have nothing to do with Alex Salmond, I don't even know what the SNP line is on this, if they have one. Don't go jumping to conclusions so hastily.
108

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 19:07:40
129
Tartan Bond

"You are falling for Salmond's appeasement mentality."

You were almost talking sense up to then. Even if you were only repeating what has already been said.

But then your "condition" kicked in again.

109

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 19:09:08
129 the Taleban don't need to be well armed the way that they are fighting. And our soldiers are not better protected than ever before. And why do you feel it necessary to start talking about throwing cash at muslims, you sound like an Islamophobe. Are you ?
110

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 19:09:38
129
Tartan Bond

"Salmond thinks..."

When were you appointed official spokesperson for the First Minister?

Is anyone LESS qualified?

111

,

12/07/2009 19:09:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
112

,

12/07/2009 19:13:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
113

,

12/07/2009 19:29:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
114

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 19:34:40
133
Observer

"the Taleban don't need to be well armed the way that they are fighting."

They have all the arms they need. These people can manufacture an AK47 in a village workshop.

115

,

12/07/2009 19:43:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
116

Tartan Bond,

12/07/2009 19:43:57
Observer # 131

I am impressed by your mixed metaphors. Gerald Warner is a right wing pr@ck and should not be quoted, ever.

You are right, Salmond is right, we should pull all NATO troops out of Afghanistan tomorrow, so that the Taliban and Al Quaeda can overrun Pakistan and get control of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal. We will all be much safer then. Well we will be when Salmond chucks a few quid more to his Muslim sweetheart groups. Salmond saves the western world.

The mission in Afghanistan is a NATO action. NATO members have perceived that there is a problem there, not just Gordon Brown, or George Bush: Barack Obama has come to that conclusion too. No nation wants to be fighting a war so far from home that it doesn't need to, that is a logistics nightmare.

Now, what would Salmond do, IF he had any power? Surrender...?
117

Tartan Bond,

12/07/2009 19:47:42
Electric Hermit # 138

It takes a lot longer to manufacture an AK47 in a village workshop than it does to manufacture an "improvised explosive device" that will blow a hole through four feet of armour in an Abrahms tank, with the consequential collateral damage.
118

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 19:48:27
141
Tartan Bond

"Now, what would Salmond do..."

You really need to address this sad obsession. Surely medical science in the 21st century must be able to do something for you.

119

,

12/07/2009 19:49:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
120

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 19:50:14
142
Tartan Bond

"It takes a lot longer to manufacture an AK47 in a village workshop than it does to manufacture an "improvised explosive device"..."

And your point is...?

121

,

12/07/2009 19:59:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
122

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 20:01:28
141 GW is a right wing god bothering pr'ck to be more accurate but on this one he is right.
123

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 20:01:38
142
Tartan Bond

"...four feet of armour in an Abrahms tank..."

It's called an Abrams. And where the hell would they put FOUR FEET of armour?

124

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 20:03:58
147
Tartan Bond

"That is the point..."

I take it the question was too difficult for you. Never mind.

125

Tartan Bond,

12/07/2009 20:04:15
Javier Bardem # 146

You seem like a decent sort, you seem to have the local yokels bracketed.
I love the England/Australia test matches and the fact that they are not on the BBC is scandalous, but, I love them best when the Aussies are giving England a Royal rumping.
A draw today was as good result for England as they can expect ;-)
126

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 20:05:22
141 who would Salmond surrender too ? We are not being attacked by Afghanistan. What are you havering about.
127

Tartan Bond,

12/07/2009 20:05:30
Electric Hermit # 149

Top and bottom, nugget.
128

Tartan Bond,

12/07/2009 20:09:25
Observer # 148

There will be no outright victory against the Taliban, because there will be no set-piece battles, that is known. The point is to degrade their capabilities to the extent that they can be managed by indigenous Afghan forces. Whether that is possible remains to be seen. What cannot be allowed is that they strengthen unchallenged.

I ask again, apart from appeasement, what is Salmond's solution?
129

Tartan Bond,

12/07/2009 20:11:21
Observer # 152

If you think that Scotland is safe forever, then you have a delusion. Get it see to!
Salmond will leave Scotland defenceless, he is passionate about appeasement.
130

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 20:13:52
153
Tartan Bond

"Top and bottom..."

Idiot! The M1 Abrams is only 8 feet high. Is it carried four feet of armour "top and bottom" that would be all it would carry.

And it wouldn't carry it far.



131

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 20:14:16
154 I don't recognise that scenario at all. We are invaders and we will be kicked out. All the stuff about introducing democracy etc is baloney. The Taleban will be kicked out if the *Afghans* want that. It's got hee haw to do with us and we are probably helping the Taleban by sticking our nebs in to what does not concern us.
132

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 20:15:04
155 Who is he appeasing? Come on just spit it out.
133

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 20:16:30
154 Why does Alex Salmond have to have a solution to the governance of Afghanistan ?
134

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 20:20:11
155
Tartan Bond

"Salmond will leave Scotland defenceless..."

Defenceless against what threat.

Given SNP policy for a Scottish Defence Force, if you imagine an independent Scotland would be defenceless then you grossly underestimate the fighting abilities of our military.

Or you just look to insult Scottish soldiers as you insult all things Scottish.

135

Tartan Bond,

12/07/2009 20:23:15
Electric Hermit # 156

Have you thought of the angles, or, are you saying that an IED could not penetrate four feet of armour?

Observer # 156///

It is known that Salmond has no idea as to the Afghan problem other that to appease Muslim interests in Scotland in the hope that there will be no more Muslim terrorist attacks in Scotland; at least while he is FM.
136

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 20:23:43
159
Observer

"Why does Alex Salmond have to have a solution to the governance of Afghanistan ?"

The idiot seems to imagine the SNP is as imperialistic as his Tory/BLP masters.

137

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 20:25:47
161
Tartan Bond

"Have you thought of the angles..."

Step away from the digging implement.

138

Tartan Bond,

12/07/2009 20:26:21
Electric Hermit # 160

Your crystal ball says that Scotland will never face any threat, then good for you.

When will Salmond's defence force come into play, what military are you talking about, Scotland has no military?

What regiment did you serve in? Girl Guides?
139

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 20:28:57
161 You are all over the place with this one, it's quite comical. This has got nothing to do with Alex Salmond nobody mentioned him until you showed up.

This is about whether UK forces should be deployed in Afghanistan, I say no and I've explained why *Observer* thinks that - not Alex Salmond.

You seem a man obsessed if you don't mind me saying so.
140

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 20:29:59
161
Tartan Bond

"...appease Muslim interests in Scotland..."

I would be interested in an example of what you consider to be "appeasement". Just as a measure of your insanity, you understand.

141

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 20:31:18
161 Do you think that Afghanistan poses a threat to the UK? Please detail. Bearing in mind that Afghanistan is a country and Al quida is a terrorist group originating in Saudi Arabia.
142

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 20:37:10
164
Tartan Bond

"Your crystal ball says that Scotland will ..."

Once again, the buffoon resorts to the giant straw man when his cornered and struggling.

As less deranged readers than yourself will have noted, I neither stated nor implied that Scotland would "never face any threat". That was the voices in your head, freak.

I asked YOU what threat YOU were contemplating. You have no answer.

I also pointed out that Scotland is, and under SNP plans, always would be perfectly capable of defending itself militarily. Our soldiers have been fighting the UK's imperialist wars for long enough.

143

Tartan Bond,

12/07/2009 20:38:00
Observer # 165

I am glad you are entertained. I enjoy bringing a Salmond element into matters. Bearing in mind that Salmond believes that Scottish soldiers should be withdraw from the theatre I ask what is Salmond's solution to the problem apart from appeasement. To withdraw Scottish soldiers form the war now, while it is undecided, is appeasement and dishonours those already dead.

Electric Hermit # 166

£215,000 to the Scottish Islamic Foundation. Appeasement!
144

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 20:40:50
Tartan Bond if you appease someone that is granting concessions to an enemy. Do you think Scottish muslims who you say Salmond is appeasing are an enemy ? I think you need to clarify a few things here.
145

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 20:42:16
165
Observer

"You seem a man obsessed if you don't mind me saying so."

You've noticed? Every single thread, no matter what the article may about, this clown has to turn into an attack on his pet hate-figure.

The last time somebody loomed that large in my life, I married her.

146

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 20:43:25
''dishonours those already dead.''


You have scraped the bottom of the barrel now, dismissed.
147

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/07/2009 20:46:47
Note that the Scotsman staff are at their terminals getting ready for Monday.
148

Tartan Bond,

12/07/2009 20:48:15
Electric Hermit # 168

"I asked YOU what threat YOU were contemplating"

I am not contemplating any threat, I leave that to others. I leave it to Salmond to deny that Scotland will ever be at risk from outside forces. Salmond uses our money to appease, I understand why you do not like it said like that, but, that is the fact.

I see you have learned from: http://www.porkjerky.com/free/epithets.php
Your rudeness has improved.
149

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 20:49:09
169
Tartan Bond

"Bearing in mind that Salmond believes that Scottish soldiers should be withdraw from the theatre..."

Really? How about a link to some statement from Salmond to that effect. How about a link to official SNP policy on the matter.

Or are you stupid enough to imagine we will take your word for it?

150

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 20:51:31
174
Tartan Bond

"I leave it to Salmond to deny that Scotland will ever be at risk from outside forces."

Are you even aware that it is you saying this. Not me. Not Alex Salmond. It is you. Can you acknowledge that? Or are you too far gone.

151

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 20:52:26
The SNP's position appears to be similar to that of the other opposition parties. They have serious concerns and want the whole strategy reviewed. But they haven't called for the troops to be withdrawn. They haven't even suggested that at this stage.

It appears that the electorate are well ahead of the politicians on this one.
152

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 20:54:33
174
Tartan Bond

"I am not contemplating any threat..."

You said that Salmond would leave Scotland defenceless. Defenceless against what? What is the threat your deranged mind tells you Scotland is going to be defenceless against?

153

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 20:57:21
177
Observer

"They haven't even suggested that at this stage."

Who you gonna believe? The SNP? Or Tartan Bond?

What a dilemma!



154

Tartan Bond,

12/07/2009 20:58:46
Electric Hermit # 178

Salmond will leave Scotland defenceless because he will not have any defence force.
Salmond does not support UK forces in Afghanistan.
155

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 20:59:34
177
Observer

"It appears that the electorate are well ahead of the politicians on this one."

Indeed. But the caution is understandable.

156

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 20:59:52
179 The guy is nailed. We know what he wants to say but he doesn't have the balls to say it. Waste of space.
157

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 21:01:18
180
Tartan Bond

One post. Two lies.

158

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 21:01:36
181 Yep I don't think any of them will change their position until the election in August is over, in case by some miracle that produces a result which shows there has been some purpose to all this. If I was a politician I would do exactly the same.
159

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 21:04:30
174
Tartan Bond

"Salmond uses our money to appease..."

I'm still waiting for an example of this "appeasement".

And when are you going to provide evidence to support your claims about what SNP policy is on Afghanistan and defence? Would you like some help?

160

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/07/2009 21:11:54
It really is amazing that the plants who are placed to bump up the postings rely on the lowest common denominator to do so.

Consider the irony.

Tartan Bond is arguing that Scotland would have no defence against an invader when the article is about what is happening in Afghanistan and how the Russian, American and British armies cannot quite overcome an organised rabble.

Oh dear, dear, dear.

161

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 21:14:13
186
Jock Tamson

"...plants who are placed to bump up the postings..."

I smell a conspiracy theory brewing.

162

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 21:16:10
186
Jock Tamson

"Tartan Bond is arguing that Scotland would have no defence against an invader when the article is about what is happening in Afghanistan..."

That's nothing. Some other nutter wanted to talk about cricket.

163

Tartan Bond,

12/07/2009 21:16:33
How much money does Salmond have to give to Muslim pressure groups before you people consider it appeasement?

Electric Hermit # 171

I refer you my post @ 169. £215,000, that is appeasement, simple.

Salmond supports the soldiers, but, not the war they are fighting? I say Salmond is a spineless, scurrilous hypocrite and so does most of the UK.

Well, don't expect to marry me, you prevert!
164

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 21:18:29
186
Jock Tamson

"...an organised rabble."

Oxymoron.

165

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 21:20:09
189 You can say whatever you want but you are a demonstrable liar, an Islamophobe who thinks all muslims are terrorists, and a person who makes things up (badly) as you go along.


166

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 21:23:22
189
Tartan Bond

The Scottish Islamic Foundation isn't threatening anyone. Why would it need to be appeased.

Seems you are one of those brain-dead freaks who only has to see the word "Islam" and you're wetting your pants.

Still waiting for you to provide evidence that SNP policy on Afghanistan and defence is what you claim it to be. Get a move on.

167

Unionist Voice,

12/07/2009 21:23:40
189. Bond

great post. We Unionists deplore government funding for Islamic groups, unless this funding is delivered by our Unionist New Labour British Government!

----------------------------------------------------
"The British government is to fund a board of Islamic theologians......The plans have angered some hardline activists who accuse ministers of trying to create state-sponsored Islam.

But Communities Secretary Hazel Blears said it was government's job to support Muslim leaders on controversial issues."

BBC News
168

Unionist Voice,

12/07/2009 21:26:00
189. I do hope no one will be so silly to think our great Brittanic UK government s "appeasing" Muslims just because it funds the following Muslim groups?

Muslim Business in the Community
Business in the Community
Muslim Youth Helpline
Common Purpose
Muslim Youth Development Partnership
Sizanani Africa
Khayaal Theatre Company
Changemakers Foundation
Innovate Arts CIC
UK Race & Europe Network
Sufi Muslim Council
Sufi Muslim Council
FAT1MA Women's Network
Luqman Institute

169

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/07/2009 21:26:38
190, Electric Hermit. juxstaposition.
170

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 21:26:43
Statement by SNP Westminster leader and Defence spokesperson Angus Robertson MP 12 July 2009

“It is essential that we have a serious review of our strategy and operationsnot just to refocus our efforts, but also to actually convince people that thebest strategy is being pursued.

“The awful toll of military personnel killed in Afghanistan has understandably led to questions about just what our forces are fighting for. When we first went to Afghanistan the Defence Secretary blithely suggested they could complete their mission 'without firing a shot’ – people want to know what has happened.

“We are going to have to take stock after the Afghan elections next month – Ministers must convince us that they have a proper strategy and a proper objective which has the likelihood of success.

“A military solution is clearly not enough – the idea that you are only going to secure your objective militarily is wrong. Perhaps most crucially we need development, as the UK’s former ambassador to the UN, Sir Jeremy Greenstock,says the army has been "holding a wall up" in Helmand, but "no-one has come along to build a buttress" of development.

“What is required is a major rethink that looks at all the options, and that will give people, not least our troops themselves, the confidence that the right strategy is being pursued and is achievable.”

171

Unionist Voice,

12/07/2009 21:28:13
189. Bond

while we deplore the SNP funding the Scottish islamic foundation by £200,000 as "appeasement", we unionists welcome UK government funding of £70 million for Muslim groups! UK New Labour government funding of Muslim goups is OK because the money does not come from Edinburgh.

31 Oct 2007 ... Muslim groups will receive £70 million in Government funds..Times Oct 31st 2007
172

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 21:28:20
193 Tut tut Unionist Voice you have given the game away. The funding stream that the Scottish Government used to fund the SIF to promote community cohesion is a UK wide initiative and therefore it is utterly illogical to attack the SNP without attacking the Labour Party too.

Your unionist chums might strike you off their Christmas card list for that one.
173

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 21:29:19
195
Jock Tamson

You just wanted a chance to use the word, "juxtaposition".

Don't blame you. Lovely, innit?
174

Jock Tamson,

online dictionary 12/07/2009 21:32:38
juxtaposition
(juk´stpzish´n),
n adjacent situation; apposition or contact.

therefore organised rabble in this instance is not an oxymoron.
175

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 21:33:58
Tartan Bond speaks sense; now that is an oxymoron.
176

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 21:38:44
200
Jock Tamson

organised - Methodical and efficient in arrangement or function

rabble - A disorderly crowd of people

Oxymoron. Or contradiction in terms. If it is organised, it cannot be disorderly. Therefore, it cannot be a rabble.
177

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 21:40:08
A Scottish Defence Service

The priority of the Scottish Defence Services (SDS), in partnership with Scotland’s neighbours and allies, will be to safeguard our land, sea and air space. The SDS will initially be equipped with Scotland’s negotiated share of UK defence resources. Service and pension conditions will be at least equal to those of the UK forces.

The SDS will be a professional force supported by reserve forces with employment opportunities open to everyone meeting the appropriate standard. MoD civilian support personnel employed in Scotland at Independence will have the opportunity to remain in the Scottish MoD or Scottish civil service. Scotland will maintain active defence commitments with its friends and allies through the United Nations, European Union and Partnership for Peace.

http://tiny.pl/hhmsr

178

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 21:41:58
''organised anarchy'' that is my favourite oxymoron and people actually use it all the time.

Anyway I'm off. Nite all.
179

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/07/2009 22:00:57
202, Electric Hermit. No.

Juxtaposition. The organised arrange the targets (the invaders). The rabble engages the targets.

You see, the appropriate bit in the definition is a clue.

A rabble does not have to be lined up in 3 ranks for it not to an organised rabble. A rabble can be persuaded to sit on a hill and fire at troops.

But that is as far as the organisation goes. The rabble has been organised but there is no one to organise the rabble to the next stage. Therefore, organisation has led a rabble from A to B and left it to undertake a rabbalion.
180

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/07/2009 22:03:02
Or rabbellion
181

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 22:04:18
205
Jock Tamson

Wonderfully contrived. But ultimately unconvincing.

182

,

12/07/2009 22:09:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
183

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/07/2009 22:13:47
207, Electric Hermit.

How else would you explain the Afghani casualties compared to those of the invaders?
184

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/07/2009 22:23:47
Anyway. The organised rabble bit was a response to the alleged defencelessness of Scotland.

There are enough ex military out there to provide an efficient back up to any SDF.
185

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 22:27:19
209
Jock Tamson

"How else would you explain the Afghani casualties compared to those of the invaders?"

What are the Afghan casualties? Supply some figures so I can make a comparison.

186

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/07/2009 22:34:44
213, Electric Hermit. Apologies. I never kept a count.

It's just the media news which chronicles all these battles in which the Afghanis have lost more men than us.

Therefore it must be true, huh?
187

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/07/2009 22:37:13
I'm off to read "Bedtime for Dummies".

It tells you how to post comments 24/7
188

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 22:37:48
215
Jock Tamson

I am prepared to accept that Afghan casualties are considerably greater than those of the invaders. You would expect that just with air superiority.

189

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 22:39:29
216
Jock Tamson

When you work at a computer anyway, it's not difficult at all to keep another tab open in your browser and pop in every so often.

190

,

12/07/2009 22:47:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
191

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 22:52:58
219
Florajora

I don't think anyone was being callous about Afghan casualties. They leave grieving families just as UK soldiers do.

192

,

12/07/2009 22:53:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
193

Keith Lagden,

12/07/2009 22:55:09
Britain & the Yanks can't win this war, we don't know who we are fighting (they all look the same), perhaps the Brown government should read the history books, Why did we lose in the Khyber Pass? I think the PM should stop Brown Nosing to the yanks.
194

,

12/07/2009 23:07:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
195

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 23:10:30
223
Florajora

"I am struggling, as many women do and have, with the point of war."

Trust me! It's not only women.

196

,

12/07/2009 23:25:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
197

,

12/07/2009 23:27:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
198

,

12/07/2009 23:33:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
199

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

13/07/2009 00:02:29
Hi All

Jus' dropped in, drunk as a skunk on Westons' cider an' havin' had a quick Jay, to say 'goodnight' to all of you. Hope it wus a clean fight. :-)

Sleep well an' don't let Labour in again, farking eedjits!

Ciao X

Neal
200

,

13/07/2009 00:53:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
201

Barry Brock,

18/07/2009 07:05:15
It's time to get out of there right now. The Brits shouldn't be where they don't belong.

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.