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Labour trying to undermine rival HBOS bids–Salmond

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Published Date: 14 November 2008
By Hamish MacDonell
ALEX Salmond increased the pressure on the UK government over the HBOS takeover yesterday, accusing Labour politicians of "leaking and briefing" in an attempt to undermine rivals to the Lloyds TSB bid.
He also accused Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, and Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, of showing "political hostility" towards any new bidders for the Scottish-based bank.

Mr Salmond's attacks represented a major escalation in the simmering dispute between the two administrations over the proposed takeover of HBOS by Lloyds TSB.

Mr Brown and Mr Darling were instrumental in smoothing the path of the Lloyds TSB bid, agreeing to waive normal competition rules and giving the deal their approval when HBOS was in a precarious position.

Mr Salmond has questioned the wisdom of the bid, principally because of the potential threat to Scottish jobs and headquarter functions, but also because of a report from the Office of Fair Trading, which warned that the merger could harm competitiveness.

Relations in public remained cordial until earlier this week when it emerged that Bank of China, a potential bidder for HBOS, had decided not to pursue the matter any further, amid reports of a "cold shoulder" from Downing Street.

This issue was seized on by Alex Neil, an SNP MSP, who said news of Bank of China's interest had appeared on a BBC blog "within minutes" of a meeting between Bank of China and UK Treasury officials.

A spokesman for Alex Salmond then said: "There has been a degree of briefing and leaking on the apparent approach by the Bank of China to undermine the development of any alternative bids."

He said the Scottish Government would be raising the issue with Westminster, and added:

"The UK government should make it very clear that we are talking about a level playing field in relation to any offer that comes forward."

At First Minister's Questions yesterday, Mr Salmond told MSPs: "I do find it difficult to reconcile what I interpret as a clear political hostility to any alternative over this merger with the public pronouncements of a level playing field."

But a UK government spokesman said: "The Lloyds TSB bid is the only one on the table.

"Our priority is to save the jobs in HBOS and our actions have been welcomed by the unions who represent the HBOS workers," he said. "The only people who are playing politics with this are the SNP."




The full article contains 408 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 14/11/2008 00:08:43
When transparency was urged in this process I don't think most people imagined that it would involve the leaking of bid details.

The only people who seem to be playing politics with this are the labour party.

It stinks to high heaven.
2

TommyKaye,

UK 14/11/2008 00:10:40
So the Pound has fallen to $1.45 tonight - more than 30% less than it was worth only a few months ago.

Another great success from Brown and Darling just like the gold sale that cost us taxpayers 9 billion pounds.

Against the euro, the Pound has fallen by 10% over the last month.

The economists will no doubt confirm that this is at least in part because the money markets feel the government is borrowing too much and our debt is too high.

And yet we are told

we are still best placed to withstand a recession.

Don't make us laugh Brown.

People aren't going to be taken for fools unless they live in Glenrothes of course.


They can read the tealeaves. They know that it is because contrary to what Gordon Brown tells us about our economy, it has been built not just on sand, but on a desert of debt and profligacy over the last ten years.

Forty one years ago, in November 1967, James Callaghan lost his job as Chancellor of the Exchequer after he devalued the Pound from $2.80 to $2.40 - mere 14%. Yet our supine financial media has let this incredible current day devaluation pass almost without comment.

30% DROP IN STERLING IN ONE MONTH UNDER BROWN AND DARLING
3

Rasco,

14/11/2008 00:26:20
Did anyone else see the Labour man on Newsnight could not believe what I was seeing Gordon giving a Lab.man a hard time the only answer only one bid on the table it seems the stock answer from all Lab crowd,and who is the mole feeding Peston of the BBC.
4

Macd123,

14/11/2008 00:30:41
HBOS could and should remain independent.
5

Nelbert,

14/11/2008 00:35:34
This much has been obvious for weeks.

But why?

Is it because broon is so determined to destroy the SNP that he is willing to sacrifice the UKs oldest bank and thousands of jobs in the process?

I don't think this is the case , but the situation stinks and we're either going to find out about it from Pestons blog on the beeb or in 30 or 100 years time when the official records are released.
6

subrosa,

14/11/2008 00:43:02
# 5
'Is it because broon is so determined to destroy the SNP that he is willing to sacrifice the UKs oldest bank and thousands of jobs in the process?'

Yes of course it is. He'll stop at nothing to hold onto the dead union because he needs our revenues.
7

,

14/11/2008 01:01:16
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8

Edward,

14/11/2008 01:03:03
The whole thing stinks and Brown is at the bottom of all this in order to undermine Scotland
He is a disgrace.
I wish the Tories had the backbone to start asking questions about this instead of sitting on their hands
Peston, who is the son of a Labour peer, should be questioned as to who in the treasury or the cabinet office is feeding him information which is sensitive, within minutes of closed meetings taken place.
It happened with Northern Rock, then with the meetings with the Scottish Banks, now the Bank of China. Clearly its not a civil servant doing the leaking or the UK government would have ben doing their bit to investigate. Its closer and coming from high level, which is why there has been no investigation and is covered up
9

,

14/11/2008 01:13:12
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10

Guga II,

Rockall 14/11/2008 01:17:19
This is just the Quisling Maggie Broon continuing in his attempts to sell out Scotland and the Scottish people.

He'll go down in history with a reputation on a par with the Butcher Cumberland; though at least Cumberland was a foreigner.
11

antp,

14/11/2008 01:19:44
#8 the tories? the tories? the tories? you are bleating? with their 3 recessions and total incompetence of handling the economy they would be the worst option to choose. you were right in one respect, they have no backbone, no backbone or much else come to think of it. i'd sooner trust the chinese - or even the SNP to run the economy or even robert peston, in fact a deck chair would do it better.
12

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 14/11/2008 01:24:01

Brown has declared war on his own country if you cant see that you are blind .

He belives in preserving the Union full stop whatever the cost but what else can you expect from a member of the Apprentice boys ( YES I CAN PROVE THAT )
13

antp,

14/11/2008 01:27:13
# 13 where's the proof then?
14

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 14/11/2008 01:37:52

Coming soon

I would refer you to an apprentice boys parade that took place in Dunfermline in April 1986

Celtic were playing at Aberdeen that day so fans like me were at the game however 300 Celtic fans gathered at the Glen gates to protest about the parade there was a heavy police cordon keeping the sides apart .

When interviewed and quoted by the Dunfermline press the following week Gordon Brown one of the parade leaders said we will be back next year .

But another Brown promise came to light from that day to this the apprentice boys have never darkened our town .

It is there in the Dunfermline press archives of 1986
15

Dark Lochnagar,

14/11/2008 02:33:09
What was Lyndsey Roy doing in Holyrood today, has he forgotten already where he works? Mind you going by his Bi-election manifesto, he'll probably turn up at a Fife council meeting next week!
16

Billiam Wallace,

14/11/2008 02:56:07
#2 And it has dropped 37% against the yen in the last few months as well, going from 228yen to the pound to 143Yen today. The union dividend again.
17

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 14/11/2008 03:07:46
#2 - Tommy

It's absolutely shocking that the media over there are still putting forward the idea that Brown and Darling are good economic managers and that the UK is in greate shape. It seems that they are complicit.

That is not the story we are hearing here. All media outlets are saying that out of all the G7 nations Britain is in for the longest and deepest recession. Further the UK government is engaging in dangerous levels of borrowing.

It is obvioulsy the case that labour are pushing as a big a lie as possible - and seem to be getting away with it.

Their gross incompetence will come home to roost, the problem is that they are going to :-

a/ saddle Britons with the highest per capita debt of any developed nation

b/undermine the previous growth that has happened in Britain over the last 15 years (and before any labourite tries to suggest this is one of Browns successes - EVERY economy in the developed world has grown massively in the last 15 years - a period of unparalled economic growth - there is no credit to be found in this fact for Brown and Co)

c/will probably result in the loss of Scotland's second biggest company

d/will create mass unemployment across Britain and particulary Scotland through severe rationalisation of the finance industry

e/result in massive currency devaluation which Britain cannot profit from with increased exports because it no longer has an industrial base of any meaningfull size.

Thanks Gordon, thanks Labour, thanks media.

Hardly tiome for npats on the back
18

Forward not Back,

14/11/2008 03:41:17
#15 - Any chance it might have been a namesake? It isn't exactly an uncommon name?
19

frank mcbride,

lusitania 14/11/2008 04:37:19
Gordon Brown, "I will do anything I can to preserve the Union."

Enough said!
20

frank mcbride,

lusitania 14/11/2008 04:55:03
Today, in the Scotsman, Brown tells us that this financial crisis will be short lived.

Brown, in New York, asks for a global response!

The New World Order response will be to one of their own making!!!

Anyone who wishes to contradict the above statement should, first, consult the membership of the Carlyle Group, Bildeberg and Haliburton.

I expect a number of adverse comments from the usual suspects. They will all be consistent.
21

Angleland Isover,

14/11/2008 06:41:45
If Maggie Broon wants to deflate Scotland he will, this is just the beginning. He wont lose any sleep because he has never considered himself Scottish.
22

Vaward,

14/11/2008 06:48:21
#2

"Another great success from Brown and Darling just like the gold sale that cost us taxpayers 9 billion pounds."

I think you'll find we bought bonds (Euro and others) with that gold money. Those bonds have done just as well as the gold would have, so we haven't lost anything.

23

Vaward,

14/11/2008 06:53:15
#19

"That is not the story we are hearing here. All media outlets are saying that out of all the G7 nations Britain is in for the longest and deepest recession. Further the UK government is engaging in dangerous levels of borrowing."


Well, the German economy is officially in recession as of yesterday, indeed it's already shrunk 1% of GDP. The rest of the Euro zone is in the same boat. And remember the Eurozone have had other recessions in recent times whereas Britain has had 16 years of growth.
24

Angleland Isover,

14/11/2008 07:13:49
.#25 Growth like a boil on yer @rse.
25

john z,

edinburgh 14/11/2008 07:29:04
What keeps getting glossed over, is the fact that in the UK the level of PERSONAL debt per person, is higher than in any other major industrialised nation. Ever.

This is why the UK economy will suffer recession longest and hardest from current events. There is one man alone responsible for encouraging high levels of personal debt in the UK, with silly things like 125% mortgages, and relaxation of relevant safeguards. His name is Gordon Brown, and yet the media have singularly failed to mention this or even question Brown about it.

All we get from the UK media, including HM Governments man at the BBC, Robert Peston, is fabricated nonsense about how Gordon Brown is 'telling world leaders how to handle the recession.

Check out foreign media sources and you'll find it is simply not the case. Sarkozy, Merkel, Zapatero et.al. are NOT regularly phoning Brown asking him what they should do.

The truth is, it is all b*llsh*t straight from the lips of Mr.A.Campbell at London labour 'spin' HQ.
26

john z,

edinburgh 14/11/2008 07:30:43
By January 2009, the pound will reach parity with the Euro. Truly a failed chancellor.
27

Vaward,

14/11/2008 07:47:56
# 19 furthermore

"e/result in massive currency devaluation which Britain cannot profit from with increased exports because it no longer has an industrial base of any meaningfull size."

18% of Britain's of $2.8 trillion economy is from manufacturing. That looks meaningful to me.

"b/undermine the previous growth that has happened in Britain over the last 15 years (and before any labourite tries to suggest this is one of Browns successes - EVERY economy in the developed world has grown massively in the last 15 years - a period of unparalled economic growth - there is no credit to be found in this fact for Brown and Co)"

Except Germany, France, Italy, etc., who were in recession just 5 years ago. Indeed, Italy hasn't really grown since the early 90s.






28

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 14/11/2008 07:49:03
The Labour stooge on Newsnicht last night was absolutely shocking, even by Labour's appalling standards of Holyrood talent. He just kept repeating the same phrase, whatever the question, in a desperate attempt to run down time.

"Is there any need for a bidder at all now?"

"It's the only bid on the table."

"But the situation has changed since the bailout, hasn't it?"

"It's the only bid on the table."

"What's your favourite flavour of crisps?"

"It's the only bid on the table."

"How long do you plan to stay on Mars?"

"It's the only bid on the table."

It's a genuine disgrace that they can send someone out to treat the electorate with such undisguised contempt.
29

,

14/11/2008 07:51:46
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30

,

14/11/2008 07:59:59
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31

Gdgy,

dndy 14/11/2008 08:15:08
Salmond sounds completely out of his depth here....

But where are his ideas - where are the other options?

The merger is the only game in town...all Salmond has done is to moan ...but when have the SNP ever taken action when whining and doing nothing was an option...no matter the effect on Scotland!
32

Buckfastleigh,

Devon 14/11/2008 08:25:46
I most definitely agree that LloysdTSB should not be bamboozled by this inept government into taking over HBOS and as there are other solutions available why shouls shareholders agree to comply with this diktat?

Any shareholder in either group should take this opportunity to block the whole thing,

Was it not Mrs Thatcher who repeatedly said "there is no alternative" when there clearly was?

In this case a possible option could be one involving a strong non UK European Bank like Banco de Santander for instance. Or is Groandown worried about what the Sun may say?

On occasions Salmond has a better understanding of reality than your paper gives him credit for!
33

Buckfastleigh,

Devon 14/11/2008 08:33:03
I forgot to add that we are rapidly getting to a position when the € and the pound Sterling are reaching parity. What will Gordon do with his famous five € tests when the UK economy may well be slipping the way of Island to an unsustainable and sticky end? Perhaps I dream.
34

57vintage,

Keith 14/11/2008 08:39:41
#27

"the level of PERSONAL debt per person"

As I've said often before, where is the PERSONAL responsibility taken by individuals borrowing way beyond their capability to pay back?

Polticians (left, right, green, pink, Nationalist, separatist, unionist, UK, Holyrood, local authority) are easy to blame when in the post-Thatcherite demand for personal instant gratification goes @rse up and the bills for profligacy have to be paid.
35

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 14/11/2008 08:48:00
Alex, I know that you and your party are in a state of confusion after Glenrothes, but haven't you noticed? There ain't no rival bids. Your antics and "spiv/speculator" diatribe scared off all of the prospective alternatives. Scotland deserves better.
36

,

14/11/2008 08:48:30
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37

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 08:48:51
Gordon Brown said that he would do whatever was necessary to maintain the union.
A bankrupt Scotland would never vote for independence ?
He's been slightly off on his running of UK the economy he may just possibly be wrong on this too.
38

BIG EYE,

Paisley 14/11/2008 08:52:57
A previous poster asked why MR Roy was at Holyrood yesterday?

The answer is clear, he has been to Westminster and found out that the spurious campaign issues he raised in Glenrothes cannot be resolved there. I presume he is now trying out Holyrood to see if they can help him.

He is expected anytime soon at the council buildings in fife.

At the end of this tour he will conclude that only his campaign managers actually know how to cure the problem as they created it!
39

Rab the Rant,

Bo'ness 14/11/2008 09:02:15
Where is Salmond coming from first he agrees the Lloyds TSB deal is the only one on the table. Then when it appears there is some interest from other sources he jumps on the bandwagon.

Can any of your readers explain to me how you can maintain the HBOS identity if it is owned by the Bank of China?

Will anyone who is taking over HBOS not be forced to consider the position of its employees who have been selling easy credit form call centres adding to the mountains of personal debt over past ten years?

What is his or the SNP poition on the redundancies announced today by the Royal Bank of Scotland?
40

MoClana,

14/11/2008 09:11:26
40 # WU Merchant ' Alex, I know that you and your party are in a state of confusion after Glenrothes, but haven't you noticed? There ain't no rival bids. Your antics and "spiv/speculator" diatribe scared off all of the prospective alternatives. Scotland deserves better.

Eh?....so who gave the Chineese bid the cold shoulder and who is briefing the press?

Get a grip you idiot !
41

SlyFifer,

Somewhere south of Fife 14/11/2008 09:16:35
So this will be the same 'cold shoulder' that the Icelandic government got in March then ?.
42

MoClana,

14/11/2008 09:18:04
#44 Rab the rant ' Where is Salmond coming from first he agrees the Lloyds TSB deal is the only one on the table. Then when it appears there is some interest from other sources he jumps on the bandwagon'

You just answered your own question, when it was the only deal on the table prior to the goverments rescue packages then he was correct.

But then the goverment re capatalised the struggling banks which changed the circumstances for the shot gun merger and during this time a rival bid was being put together.

So why is he wrong in asking the question ' why the merger' , he is only asking what everyone else is asking, including OFT, FSA, and rival banks.

Its not rocket science!
43

salmondella,

UK 14/11/2008 09:23:40
Salmond -you wanted the chance to change things and you promised the world to the people os Scotland " if only you were given the chance" - now you have been given the chance and are failing miserably you turn round and blame Labour. Get on with it and stop moaning!
44

Warden An' All, Reborn,

14/11/2008 09:29:47
A government working towards supporting stability by the mean it thinks will better support the nation, that doen't sound like a totally bad thing to me, then I'm no expert.
45

,

14/11/2008 09:31:59
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46

57vintage,

Keith 14/11/2008 09:32:31
#47

"during this time a rival bid was being put together"

Where is it then?

Facts are chiels that winna ding etc
47

Alec M,

Falkirk 14/11/2008 09:36:40
#43 - The brief glance we had of him at FMQs yesterday, sitting in the gallery, reminded me of a rabbit caught in the headlights of a car.

Mr Roy reminds me of a comment made by Winston Churchill at about, I think, the time of the 1945 Election: "An empty car drew up at the House of Commons and Mr Atlee stepped out."
48

SEUMAS,

fearn 14/11/2008 09:41:47
From day one, Brown decided to give Salmond a bloody nose but he forgot he was also giving a bloody nose to the people of Scotland, the clock is ticking!!!
49

Calum10,

14/11/2008 09:46:49
BBC Newsnicht exposed Labour's duplicity over HBOS.

On one hand Labour ministers are saying that the Lloyds takeover is the only bid whilst actively undermining other options and other potential bids by companies and institutions.

Scotland does not need enemies when it has the Labour party.
50

subrosa,

14/11/2008 09:50:50
# 51

I tend believe Alex Neil on this one as he's done his research regarding the whole issue. He understands the Bank of China approached Westminster 3 times and each time was given the cold shoulder. In other words, regardless of the bid they may have wished to make, they were told it wouldn't be considered.

As for the fact that confidential meeting results are on Robert Peston's blog within minutes (and before those present at the meeting are informed), it must be investigated. Someone within government is leaking to that man and all to scupper any other bid.

If you didn't see the pathetic excuse for the labour party on Newsnicht last night, then I suggest you watch it on iplayer.
51

MoClana,

14/11/2008 10:00:26
#51 - Are you seriously saying the chineese bid never happened, that the chineese were not told that any counter bid would not be welcomed

Are you seriously saying that the goverment has not been breifing the press? where then and how did the Chineese offer end up all over the press before any formal talks could take place?

Live in ignorance if you want, but if Brown and Darling are not answering the door to anyone, then of course you are not going to get alternative bids.

Bids and rival bids a side, we have still to be told why the Lloyds merger is required now that the goverment has recapatalised the banks with tax payers money? Which bit of HBOS was struglging, the Halifax or BOS? There has been no explanation of this nor disclosoure of the state of both banks.
52

MoClana,

14/11/2008 10:04:50
# 57 - You have nothing to add to the debate here, your constant Unionist drones are merely irritating.
53

Nikostratos,,

14/11/2008 10:11:26
#2

lower pound more exports more jobs lower unemployment fewer house repossessions. Oh i forgot you're still at school
54

subrosa,

14/11/2008 10:14:33
# 57

I'm sure Alex Neil has found out the timing of the Westminster meetings. He's not a lazy person and he'll have done his research well before making statements about the facts appearing on Robert Peston's blog within minutes of the meeting finishing.

# 59

We certainly do need an explanation as to why this merger is necessary now the financial situation has changed. It seems it's full steam ahead at all costs. Takeovers of this size aren't done in a couple of months, we all know that. It's been in the pipeline far longer than that and during that time all the basic leg work has been done.

My thought is that it was well known, within financial circles, that this takeover would be taking place and hence the share price of HBOS was hammered.
55

bluehead,

edinburgh 14/11/2008 10:19:24
the smell of brown and darling permeates the whole business,it is obvious what they are trying to do,
this labour goverment stinks to high heaven,what shame they have brought on the British people in almost everything they do
If they are not trying to spoil things for the Scottish people,they are bowing and scraping before their superiors in America and Europe,
this labour goverment are an insult to the British people,we would have more improvement if we had voted in a pack of hyenas
56

G,

DNDY 14/11/2008 10:19:52
#60 is typical of the SNPite view....apparently pointing out that the whole basis of the argument has no substance(that the UK gov has conspired to bring down HBOS and impose a merger that is "against Scotland's interest) adds nothing to the debate!!!!

There is no evidence that the UK gov have done anything other than save HBOS then offer it financial support to stabilise it.....
The idea that rival bids are being denied has no basis but it fits with the SNPite's cherished idea of a Unionist conspiracy......the sad thing is that Scotland's government has come up with no ideas and appears to be happy standing on the sidelines moaning and doing nothing...
57

57vintage,

Keith 14/11/2008 10:24:18
There was a Chinese bid?

I tended to take the news of the Chinese bank query as an expression of interest. Are you telling me that they have tabled a rival bid?

The "cold shoulder" comment was in The Scotsman headline trailing the news of Chinese interest the other day. As I recall, the source was not given other than it being " a source close to..." The Scotsman is campaigning for an independent HBOS, of course. I too would be delighted to see one, but I'm sure that banks have not come over all touchy-feely since their self-induced crisis and that any rival bid will be made on their own sound commercial principles, although given the sotter they've got themselves in, the soundness of any such principles may be questionable.

I'll take your word on Pesto's blog which I have little inclination to read and agree with you that any leaking from governmental sources should be investigated.

So, we have the TSB offer and no others.
58

Alan B,

14/11/2008 10:27:38
I am still trying to work out if Brown is completely incompetent or vindictive and corrupt.

Labour should kick the guy out and get back its self respect.
59

subrosa,

14/11/2008 10:28:44
# 65

Oh so the Uk government are doing everything above board and with the UK in mind are they?

The UK government are responsible for a dear friend of mine losing his total savings with Kaupthing, Singer and Friedlander. Darling says Isle of Man savers only bank there because it's a tax haven. It's a lie. People who work abroad and have no home in the UK but want to save in the UK, and pay regular taxes, have no option other than bank off-shore.

I have no trust left in the Westminster government. Having watched the twitching and shuffling of Darling, King and the new FSA boss in a Westminster finance committee meeting the other week, I realised they're all liars. To use someone's life savings in such a way is deplorable. Not only one person's savings but savings to the tune of £550m. Just gone - into the ether with the blame falling on Iceland.

So perhaps there's no evidence at the moment about the HBOS takeover, but when the actual records are allowed out of cold storage in say 30 years time, then the truth will emerge. I have no doubt whatsoever the truth is dirty play.
60

Alan B,

14/11/2008 10:30:20
Daling while head of the social security department refused to release information to the then labour scottish government to help them introduce free personal care. Why? Becuase labour in london did not want labour in scotland implementing a different policy.

So it is hardly surprising that Darling now as chancellor alongside Brown treat scotland with so much contempt.
61

Quinag,

14/11/2008 10:35:25
Who was the Scottish Labour spokesman, on Newsnight, with Alex Neil, last night? He was, to put it politely, PATHETIC! Was somebody working him from behind?
As somebody who has always spoken up for our Scottish Parliament, if this is the quality of elected members, then please close the place down, & I'll take my chances with Westminster. I think Mr Brewer let him off far too easily. He appeared very uncomfortable, shifty, & made no eye contact with the interviewer, or his fellow interviewee. Was this because he knows what a total stitch up this whole HBOS ''merger'' deal is?
Let's hope the shareholders of both banks were watching, & the voters of whichever west coast constituency, voted him in.
62

Alan B,

14/11/2008 10:42:02
#subrosa

My view was Brown was just economic incompetent with a vindictiveness towards scotland when it voted against labour. But the more I think of Browns economic performance the more i think it was deliberate economic short termism for personal political gain.

He said introduced his golden rule not to borrow over the economic cycle. It is really difficut to look at it and say he did not lie.

He said he would control house prices. To me this is the crux in the whole mess of the uk economy as it has meant record personal debt and an unstable banking crisis. Again while he said he would control house prices he did nothing to control them. His inflation target excluded housing costs using cpi. He got the BOE to target cpi inflation targets and not as per the european central bank the growth of the money supply ie credit. And he introduced not quanititive restrictions either. As such it was more a lie than incompetence.

The big thing that has swung me away from Brown being just incompentent was the revalations about Nothern Rock. The sunday herald reported that NR held £50billion of its mortgage debt in an off shore uk childrens health charity (the kids obviously got no money), in order to avoid fsa regualations, capital requirements and tax.

I find it very difficult to believe brown was just so incompetent that he did not know this practise (also used by other banks) was not going on. They are after all public companies and with auditted accounts. £50 billion is not a tiny amount of money. That brings me the conclusion that on the balance of probability he is not just incompetent but corrupt.
63

TWC,

14/11/2008 10:57:32
The Labour guy was at a distinct disadvantage trying to defend the indefencible. He was asked what is wrong with saving HBos the same way as all the other banks.
The Financial Times has now joined in condemnation of the deal.
This is a real mess now and if it isn't put to bed it will all look so suspiscios when we look back at it.
It's like David Cameron's question on Childcare a simple agreeement that it would be looked into would have squashed the thing but no Brown went behind his wall and it blew up.
He is a big stubborn, vindictive dour Scot and there is nothing so ugly.

He is back in hiding telling everybody how well UK is placed, that's why people are dashing out of Sterling.

64

Alan B,

14/11/2008 11:21:57
#Spook

It is more like brown trousers than browns cape.
65

Alan B,

14/11/2008 11:23:40
Maybe Brown can invite Maggie to tea again to see how she managed 3 million unemployed.

Browns economic management can be summed up as -Mass unemployment caused by massive debt.
66

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 14/11/2008 11:29:01
What a tossa Salmond is. He'll say or do anything for party political (and more worryingly, personal) advantage. The good people of Glenrothes sussed him out. The rest of the country (with the exception of a rump of rabid nats) will follow suit. Scotland deserves better.
67

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 14/11/2008 11:31:01
Look nats, if the bank's shareholders don't like the LTSB deal, they will vote against it. But you can bet your bottom dollar that they won't.
68

TWC,

14/11/2008 11:37:28
76 Patrick O'Reilly,
I'm not a Nat and I'm not a New Labour poodle either. I'm not going to blame the Nats for the Disaster that is New Labour. Until we face facts and see Labour have no policies to improve Scotland we give people little alternative but the Nats.
Devolutionwas a Labour policy I was expecting Scotland to get control of it's own purse strings but that doesn't suit Labour so it is duitched -- well it does suit Scotland
69

Embra Don,

14/11/2008 11:40:58
27 john z
Yes - personal debt AND off balance sheet ppp/pfi millstones - see the propaganda piece on scholl building elsewhere in this "newspaper".
70

vimto,

14/11/2008 11:48:46
Here we go again,Natz "R" US are out in force! However,the more they shout and try to be heard the more the decent people of Scotland ignore them.
71

Alan B,

14/11/2008 11:48:57
#Patrick

I do not care about Lloyds shareholders. They will make their decision based on what they think is best for their investment.

What I do care about is the best use of tax payers money and the future of the economy and jobs.

As such i want a government i can trust and will investigate all the options to see what is best.

Brown has forfeited any trust due to his complete economic incompetence over the last decade. I do not know anyone who has some interest in the economy or housing market that did not think this would all crash. And it now has. It was predictable and we are all going to pay the cost of this short term economic management for political gain. And a very high cost it will be to.

Brown has simply not looked and the option spelt them out and explained why this merger is best. It is simply trust me. And i for one due to his record not.

We are plunging the whole economy into record debt bailing out the banks why? If we merge hbos with lloyds avoiding competition laws this is obviously not a good option but the question is, is it the only one.

With the mass duplication of branches and back office it will lead to mass job losses.

So we are putting billions and billion of pounds in not the save a bank but force it into a shot gun marriage, by passing competition law and creating big job loses.

As i see it if you are not going to save the bank you would almost be aswell as letting it go bust.

Who are we really bailing out. If a bank has 150billion of mortage debt and 100billion depositors the other 50billion will be lending from the global credit markets.

As such why are tax payers bailing out:
1)shareholders who should get nothing if the bank is bankrupt
2)institutions that lent to these banks on the global markets. Who are they? Do you know? Are the even uk companies?

As far as i am concerned we should ensure depositors are covered and try to save jobs and that is it. As mortgage debt will well cover depositors t
72

Alan B,

14/11/2008 11:50:00
...then the government should ensure they get there money covered and any other debt like the lending from the global credit markets should be paid only by refinancing this debt as would happen if any other non bank went bust. If that meant the government should alter the rules so that they worked like US chapter 11 bankruptcy laws then they should have done so (after NR).

73

vimto,

14/11/2008 11:51:02
OH, and look, the Tw=t formerly known as BULL-SH-T BILLY IS ON LINE AGAIN.
74

vimto,

14/11/2008 11:52:40
Isn't that right Hoots!
75

Warden An' All, Reborn,

14/11/2008 11:57:32
If you are Gordon Brown and in charge of the whole of Great Britain, do you polarise your position by favouring scotland, or do you do your job right by looking at the needs of the whole?
76

Grahamski,

Falkirk 14/11/2008 12:00:06
After all the bluster and bombast from the SNP there has been no other bid. Everything else is irrelevant; Mr Neil's appearance on Newsnight was very revealing. After being invited and failing to identify a serious alternative to the Lloys bid Mr Neil was reduced to shreiking 'they're voting for 20,000 redundancies!' and in that moment the spiteful wee charlatan outed himself as the deeply unpleasant political opportunist he undoubtedly is.
Alex Salmond's political antenna continues to malfunction and for his sake he better get it sorted soon.
77

Nikostratos,,

14/11/2008 12:02:06
Alex is getting a bit 'complex' he is starting to see unionists plots everywhere even under his bed.
I can never make out from Alex whether the unionists are stupid as he says or propaganda geniuses able to manipulate the world and everybody on the planet as he also says.

one things for sure he is the first minister and we will have to 'carry the can'
78

Richard,

West Lothian 14/11/2008 12:02:10
If you look at the B.B.C Iplayer:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00fhlq9/Newsnight_Scotland_13112008/

and fast forward to the 8 min mark, Alex Niel reveals that Lloyds/T.S.B. need greater capitalisation compared to HBOS.

GIVEN THIS SURELY IT'S HBOS THAT SHOULD BE TAKING OVER LLOYDS/T.S.B?? YEAH! FAT CHANCE!

Gordon Brown/Alistair Darling care nothing about Scottish jobs or Scotland's financial sector other than that it must remain subservient to London.

PAY HEED PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND.

79

,

14/11/2008 12:03:18
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80

KarenL,

London 14/11/2008 12:05:59
www.independenthbos.com


Download the document to call for an EGM to sack Stevenson and Hornby.Sign it and send by email or post to the campaign office.

81

Nikostratos,,

14/11/2008 12:07:32
#91 richard

stirring stuff richard i can see u now standing there with your saltire flying high...sod it lets go and invade england
82

MandyMac,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 12:07:48
I'm concerned the Scottish Government are seizing this issue to further their own ends and NOT for the benefit of Scotland, what is Salmond doing with his time?

I believe a phsychiatric nurse needs to assess Salmond and his followers urgently.

If psychologically healthy people do not want to be part of the UK they should move!
83

,

14/11/2008 12:09:00
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84

Richard,

West Lothian 14/11/2008 12:11:13
Of course unionists have still to tell the Scottish people, why given the governments re-capitalisation of the banks a merger has to place at all??

THE ANSWER IS OBVIOUS.. THIS IS AN OVERT POLITICAL MOVE AIMED AT MAINTAINING LONDON'S FINANCIAL SUPREMACY OVER SCOTLAND.
85

TWC,

14/11/2008 12:14:44
Vimto & Gramski -- I repeat

I'm not a Nat and I'm not a New Labour poodle either. I'm not going to blame the Nats for the Disaster that is New Labour. Until we face facts and see Labour have no policies to improve Scotland we give people little alternative but the Nats.
Devolution was a Labour policy I was expecting Scotland to get control of it's own purse strings but that doesn't suit Labour so it is duitched -- well it does suit Scotland
86

,

14/11/2008 12:15:14
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87

Nikostratos,,

14/11/2008 12:17:33
#97

Vimto just point out to spook the snp is going to make him pay more £ for his beer..ha ha ha..he don't like it
88

,

14/11/2008 12:18:01
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89

subrosa,

14/11/2008 12:19:48
# 69
'As somebody who has always spoken up for our Scottish Parliament, if this is the quality of elected members, then please close the place down, & I'll take my chances with Westminster. '

The labour puppet on Newsnicht was a labour MP who sits on the Westminster Finance Committee.

I do hope your faith in the Scottish Parliament is now reinstated.
90

Nikostratos,,

14/11/2008 12:21:00
#101

can u tell conan its tine he bought a new jumper that one he has been wearing since 1964
91

subrosa,

14/11/2008 12:21:25
# 70

Thanks for your explanation. Many think along these lines I'm sure.
92

vimto,

14/11/2008 12:24:23
Hey spook, Wait till salmond pi--es off the westminster government enough that they stop all beer sales in scotland! It's coming,you can bet on it!
93

MandyMac,

14/11/2008 12:32:44
102 vimto: You're response is exactly why an independent Scotland looks bitter, angry and scarey you don't make the prospect anywhere near tolerable.
94

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 12:36:51
I agree that the Labour spokesman was a tad one dimensional in his 'interview' if we can call it that on Newsnight last night.

But equally, although Brewster was more even handed than he has ever been, for him to question if there ever was any real Chinese interest is to question the integrity of Jim Sprowat and the Merchant Bank being used as a go between in this potential Chinese bid.

Not to mention Peston's blogg about the Chinese bid.

Alex Neil and co have done a great job in exposing this UK government's duplicity re this takeover. There can't be too many neutral observers by now who don't see the reasons for this move as being more political than financial.
95

Walter Ego,

Durness 14/11/2008 12:43:56
What's happened to local income tax? Salmond's pal banker Burt is totally agin it so I suppose it will be dropped. What about the Council Tax freeze?
96

Arfur,

14/11/2008 12:50:06
I thought i recognised the garbage coming out of that vimto - its that useless waste of (lots of) space kimba. How are you doing Mount Kimba?

On the story - Brown will stop at nothing to keep this laughable union. Like I said yesterday he would drop an h-bomb on Scotland as long as it didnt disrupt our natural resources and he thought he could get away with it.

I am absolutly amazed there are still people (lemmings) in Scotland that still vote for these idiots. Especially the amount that voted for them in Glenrothes - saying that alot of them are a simple lot in Glenrothes and would be taken in by the scaremongering and lies. Have you no pride??
97

Edward,

14/11/2008 12:54:33
'Labour trying to undermine rival HBOS bids'
Actually Hamish as you very well know Labour ARE undermining any rival HBOS bids, there is no 'trying' about it they are clearly out to block and prevent any likelyhood of HBOS remaining as a going independent concern. Everyone, including a blind man can see that!
98

Richard,

West Lothian 14/11/2008 12:56:59

sm753,

I'll take your word for it but it seems a bit odd why HBOS IS TAKING THE HIT GIVIN ITS BETTER FIGURES AT THE TIME AND NOT LLOYDS/T.S.B.?

Anyway by letting HSOS stand alone you at least maintain H.Q. functions in Edinburgh and thus retain JOBS AND EXPERTISE.

SUREKY WHAT WE ALL WANT?
99

Richard,

West Lothian 14/11/2008 12:57:45
Surely, even!
100

Cpt Incredible,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 13:09:26
A good letter from a couple of weeks ago that sums things up.
For the love of God. For the love of Equality.

It makes me weep at what is happening to Scotland…again. What Brown, and more importantly the Establishment Civil Service, is doing to Scotland is nothing short of economic rape.
Is there anything the pro-Unionists won’t do to prevent Scotland leaving the Union?
Is there anything the Establishment and their lackies won’t do to destabilise the Scottish Economy?
There is only one reason why Westminster will push through the HBOS takeover and that is to ensure that HBOS becomes a company registered in England rather than in Scotland. It is a systematic attempt to ensure that the bargaining power of those wishing to end the Union is reduced. And it is a systematic attempt to ensure that once again the people living in Scotland will have to go cap in hand to Westminster.
These people in Westminster have no care for Scotland. We have become a resource for another country rather than a resource for ourselves.
So why oh why, immaterial of one’s political persuasion can some not see what is happening. The fall-out will affect real people, real jobs, real education and real children. Our children!
For hundreds of years the people of Scotland have voted through fear. It is time for that mindset to change. Most people in Scotland want to move forward and we want to do it on our own.
This is not a political statement it is an aspiration; an aspiration to govern ourselves and to determine our own future. I care not for political parties but there is only one party I will be voting for in Glenrothes and it won’t be Labour. Why would I vote for a party who instils fear and rules by economic coercion? Why would any enlightened soul want to do that?
Obviously I care deeply for Scotland and its future but I'd rather take a step into the unknown than be subjected to being treated as a pawn and a work horse to supplement another country’s economy.
For the love of Go
101

vimto,

14/11/2008 13:14:12
Hoots,and pretty soon you my friend will be deleted!Wichser
102

G,

Bridgefoot 14/11/2008 13:14:58
#123- you saying that Labour are undermining rival bids for HBOS and it being true are not related in any way....There is no evidence for your assertions...it is simple wishful thinking...those of a SNPite mindset need to blame someone else....there have been no other bids for HBOS, even that genius Alex Salmond cannot think up a better option than the merger...
What Scotland needs is a strong banking presence if the UK gov wanted to get rid of that "hugely Scottish asset" HBOS all it had to do was to veto the proposed merger (as some thought they would under monopoly concerns) and HBOS would have gone burst!!!
Then the UK gov promised cash that effectively stabilised HBOS and got us to this point where the merger could reasonably be questioned!
Hardly the actions of a gov that wants rid of this "Scottish" BANK!
Of course, selling HBOS to the CHinese Bank would have ensured its future as a "Scottish" BANK and sluiced all that rescue cash into foreign coffers....but that would be OK because the bank wouldn't be English???
Think!!
103

Nikostratos,,

14/11/2008 13:15:41
#128

The 'Union' first last and always


#129

just like the Hydra ya cut of his head and he just grows another
104

Nikostratos,,

14/11/2008 13:17:00
#130

lots of bankers in the snp in fact many many bankers.
105

,

14/11/2008 13:17:30
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106

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/11/2008 13:18:11
http://advancedmediawatch.blogspot.com/

Thats a top website. Especially this bit.........

"Local Residents have complained about a very large dip on the road surface opposite the General Spar shop and say that every time a large vehicle passes over it the whole tennent vibrates and shoogles."

Lets hope that Salmond does not go past in his ministerial Limo or you may find that the area resembles the aftermath of a (political) earthquake.
107

vimto,

14/11/2008 13:19:11
132. Yes indeed,more bankers than banks!
108

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/11/2008 13:22:09
From the website.... "Does Spook Really look like a Caveman?"

What an insult to all cavemen, everywhere.

Be prepared for a lawsuit.

109

,

14/11/2008 13:23:12
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110

vimto,

14/11/2008 13:27:28
126. Verpiss Dich.
111

,

14/11/2008 13:33:31
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112

Shaken,

14/11/2008 13:37:51
STURGEON NAMED POLITICIAN OF THE YEAR

Just in case this scotsman rag has a media blackout over anything positive for the SNP!!!!!!!!!!1
113

Embra Don,

14/11/2008 13:43:36
#130 G,
You are simply repeating the same mantra that the Labour stooge on newsnicht had been programmed with.
There is no longer any need for a bid from anyone. Since LTSB's illegal merger with HBOS was promoted as the only game in town, the taxpayer has had to bail out the entire banking industry - including LTSB. For Brown and Mandleson to assert that they are prepared to recapitalise any of the banks except HBOS exposes the political motivation.
114

Embra Don,

14/11/2008 13:43:45
Members of the Unite union employed by the component parts of the proposed anticompetitive super-bank may wish to consider the quality of their leadership which is prepared to sacrifice up to 40,000 jobs to curry favour with the Labour leadership.
115

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/11/2008 13:44:19
"143 Shaken,14/11/2008 13:37:51
STURGEON NAMED POLITICIAN OF THE YEAR"

Yes Shaken it is top news and a top award.

Did you hear that Barack Obama phoned to congratulate her?
116

Calvinist,

14/11/2008 13:44:58
143

Then there's hope for all of us. If someone as talentless as Sturgeon can win an award, then we all can. Bit like Prince Charles' Medals- self congratulatory political and journalistic luvvies awarding themselves medal and awards. When I hear the phrase 'award-winning' preceding the word Journalist or Politician I know it'd code for C*ap.

Oh God! I suppose she'll be promoted to head prefect soon.
117

Calvinist,

14/11/2008 13:46:58
PS does Alex hear voices too?
118

Embra Don,

14/11/2008 13:50:33
142 sm753
I'll try asking this again:
- LTSB claimed to have been in negotiation with HBOS for 2 years. Why when it would never have been cleared (nor should it be) by the monolpolies commission?
- What fees are payable to the board members who agreed the merger?
- Why, during the prolonged negotiation was the Stock Exchange not notified.
119

,

14/11/2008 13:58:35
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120

TWC,

14/11/2008 14:03:59
See all the Labour poodles are out in force, Wee Nicola is a thorough bred compared to the New Labour MSPs.
You Rufus, SM and Calvanist are typical of the Holyrood Lemon Suckers, (Labour) No policies and cn't abide anybody smarter than you.
I'm no Nat but she is good, I used to think she was just a wee lassie but she sure shut you guys down.
121

vimto,

14/11/2008 14:04:07
149.Go back to your small minded colleagues in the snp and tell them this; Hbos will be part of Lloyds/TSB because it is mainly English and it will stay that way.
122

vimto,

14/11/2008 14:09:51
153. Better than talking a load of cack, which you seem to do with the greatest of ease!
123

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/11/2008 14:09:52
"154 TWC,14/11/2008 14:03:59
See all the Labour poodles are out in force, Wee Nicola is a thorough bred compared to the New Labour MSPs.
I'm no Nat but she is good".

Good for what? Panto?
That reminds me, which Panto are the Krankies in this year?

Nicola, Alex is behind you!

I think she would make a good Mother Goose..
124

It's me!,

14/11/2008 14:11:33
Just watched the Newsnight Scotland programme. I don't know whether to feel sorry for the Labour spokesman or not. Obviously the more intelligent and articulate Labour MP's were not willing to defend the indefensible and he was put forward as a stooge. A stooge is the limit of his capabilities but it doesn't say much for those who voted for him as their MP. He did nothing whatsoever for the Governments case. Not that they have one. Brown's determination to force this through is so perverse. He is doing more to break up the Union that Salmond could ever hope for.
125

,

14/11/2008 14:12:33
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126

TWC,

14/11/2008 14:17:06
157 Rufus T. Firefly

That's right abuse Bark when you're told to but don't mention policies , We've not got any.
These guys are an embarassment to Union supporters.

Nats, How come I'm having to defend your Minister?


127

Grahamski,

Falkirk 14/11/2008 14:21:51
159
This constant hysterical nat paranoia is beginning to grate. Newsnight had an irrelevant backbench nationalist list MSP speaking, convention dictates that Labour provide a politician of similar standing.
128

Embra Don,

14/11/2008 14:36:49
#150 sm753,
It is inconceivable that they could dispose of assets that would make the deal acceptable to the MMC.
Unlike Morrison/Safeway where there was little overlap, this akin to ASDA being allowed to buy both Morrison and Sainsbury.

How can discussion of such a merger be other than substantive?

Would you agree that any sweetening fees due might colour the judgement of the HBOS board?
129

pwd,

Borders 14/11/2008 14:38:42
Salmond playing the fool from time to time is bad enough (eg, Scotland and the UN) but when it gets in the way of serious matters then it is Scotland and the UK which suffers. On this HBOS issue he is clearly out of his depth and comes over as a dangerous distraction at best. I would heve thought the flea in the ear he obviously got from Lloyds might have encouraged him to leave this issue well alone but still he's at it. He makes himself and the Scottish Executive look more and more irrelevance.
130

Embra Don,

14/11/2008 14:41:34
#164 Grahamski
Convention also dictates that he be, at least, briefed on the subject beyond parroting "there is no other bid".

But I do agree that he was irrelevant.
131

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 14/11/2008 14:43:35
Latest score: People of Glenrothes 1 (Salmond og) SNP 0.
132

Arfur,

14/11/2008 14:47:29
Rufus T. Firefly - I have no idea how long you have been posting on this site but i have yet to read one comment of yours that makes sence, is informative, is funny, has a valid point or is worth reading. Whay do you bother? Doesn't it bother you that you are viewed as a complete halfwit?
133

pwd,

Borders 14/11/2008 14:49:15
* Hoots

The stark reality of Salmond's silliness hurts, I know.
134

Shamus,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 14:57:33
I watched Newsnight. Alex Neill did not say which group or bank had actually made a 'genuine' bid for HBOS other than Lloyds. It is just the usual rhetoric and no substance from the SNP. In any case the shareholders will decide.
135

Darien,

Panama 14/11/2008 14:57:57
The UK 'nation'/union began with a bust bank and it will end the same way. The UK is more bust than any other 'nation' thanks to Brown & Darling Inc. Trying to destroy HBOS to 'prove' Scotland's dependence on the great British Nation is a flawed political agenda. Scots have few friends in Westminster - time to set the Titanic adrift.
136

brownlie,

14/11/2008 15:00:08
177 Arfur

No - he's got used to it.
137

TWC,

14/11/2008 15:05:32
Fellow Unionists and Nationalist opponentts one and all have a good weekend
New Labour poodles, You have all weekend to come up with a reasoned arguement against Devolution Max and some policies.
TTFN
138

brownlie,

14/11/2008 15:06:33
181 sm753

"Since those who regard RTF as a halfwit are mostly quarterwits"

Another of your sweeping generalisations. Can you justify it with your usual facts and figures?
139

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/11/2008 15:17:39
"177 Arfur,14/11/2008 14:47:29
Rufus T. Firefly - I have no idea how long you have been posting on this site but i have yet to read one comment of yours that makes sence".

HAHAHAHA. This must be post of the year.

I Sence you just made an idiot of yourself.
140

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

14/11/2008 15:18:24
#142 There are also 10 billion reasons why any potential suitor would be put off making a bid.

The Chinese must have realised the true state HBOS was in when the news of LTSB's loan facility.

The more I hear of how HBOS was "run" the more convinced I am that the likes of Hornby should never be allowed near a financial institution again.
141

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/11/2008 15:21:00
Brownlie, the man that thinks its wise to make posts on here using your real name (and no doubt full address and phone number).

What a twerp.

Can you imagine if the rabid NatZ got a hold of that information?
142

,

14/11/2008 15:27:54
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143

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/11/2008 15:33:10
What has the SNP's role been in all of this?

First, Salmond's claim that "spivs and speculators" were solely to blame for the bank's collapse in value has been comprehensively dismissed by bankers, including his own allies, and business leaders.

Secondly his claim that an independent Scottish government would have found £100bn to bail HBOS out has been ridiculed, not least because HBOS's bosses were willing partners in the Lloyds TSB rescue.

Add to that that Salmond's chief economic advisor and mentor Sir George Mathewson, former head of Salmond's old employer RBS, is one of those "spivs", since he now runs Toscafund Asset Management.

Mathewson himself told the Sunday Herald that short selling was "perfectly valid".

It would appear to me that an independent Scotland on its own would have been largely impotent. Salmond has spoken of laws to control short-selling spivs and speculators, but since Scotland has no international stock exchange, that would be Westminster's job.

HBOS's debts - it has been reported that it would have needed to refinance £198bn within a few months to stay solvent.

The SNP's mooted North Sea oil fund would've evaporated overnight to service that.
144

Richard,

West Lothian 14/11/2008 15:34:16
I see the unionists cringe is safe and well.

In cringe mode the unionists deny,obfuscate and blatantly lie.

SO I ASK AGAIN....WHY DOES THERE NEED TO BE A MERGER AT ALL?

REMEMBER LIVELIHOODS AND SCOTLAND'S ECONOMY ARE AT STAKE.
145

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

14/11/2008 15:37:36
#170 I am increasingly perplexed by Salmond and the SNP's consistency regards the merger. It seems to me that they are trying to play different agendas with different groups.

The First Minister has spun about so much on this issue that he must be getting dizzy.

Alex - make your bloody mind up and stick to it.

Stop playing the political opportunist and starting playing the statesman.

That's not too much to ask - is it?
146

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/11/2008 15:38:29
Dont forget that SNP policy is for an independent Scotland to stay with the pound sterling.

The foreign Bank of England would be controlling our currency imagine that. That must give Salmond sleepless nights.







147

Warden An' All, Reborn,

14/11/2008 15:41:00
187-Rufus T. Firefly-There was me thinking that was your real name. So what is your real name, full address, and telephone number?
148

Arfur,

14/11/2008 15:41:20
#185 Rufus T. Firefly - MY GAWD. Not the dreaded put down on my spelling. How ever will i recover? Saddo.
149

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

14/11/2008 15:45:07
#190 Take a level-headed look at the options that were available.

Option 1 - do nothing and let HBOS collapse. Letting the UK's fifth biggest bank and largest mortgage lender go out of business was never ever going to be a real option.

Option 2 - nationalise HBOS. Some comparisons with Northern Rock have been made here but it should be recognised that the route the government took was the last resort option. Although Northern Rock had a bid on the table from Virgin Money it would have meant further financial sweeteners from taxpayers' monies with no guarantee of any taxpayers' monies being repaid. Virgin's offer for Northern Rock makes LTSB's offer for HBOS look exceedingly generous. If no acceptable buyer for HBOS had been available then perhaps this route would have been examined. But the sheer scale of HBOS's cash shortfall - some £200 billion - would have made this extremely difficult.

Option 3 - get another bank or Scottish financiers to purchase the BOS arm of HBOS. Or the let's look after our ain option and sod Halifax. Ignoring the whole issue of the demerging the two business the truth is that there was not another alternative buyer to LTSB. RSB is up to its neck in liabilities as much as HBOS. Moreover it is just about coping with its merger with Nat West - another merger would be one too far at this stage. As for the financiers - just cannot see it happening. In fact of the names mooted some are the very people who caused these problems in the first place.

Option 4 - LTSB merges with HBOS. From a purely financial point of view this was a more attractive option. LTSB had been a lot more prudent in its activities and is relatively cash rich compared to HBOS so the liabilities of HBOS are no longer as threatening. The downside is clearly the possibility of job losses in the new merged business. However, having some jobs is clearly better than no jobs at all under option 1.

(to be continued)
150

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

14/11/2008 15:45:47
(continued)

In an ideal world with a limitless pot of cash then option 2 would have been desirable. But we are in the real world where there is not a limitless pot of cash. Option 4 it seems to me was the only feasible option on the table. It may not be desirable but it is in my opinion the best of a bad bunch of choices.

I know that some here may argue that there was an option 5 - to allow the Bank of England to let HBOS have access to the necessary credit (at commercial bank rates). That option too I feel is flawed. Firstly, HBOS already had the option of going to the Bank of England to use a credit facility - but decided not to do so (why is another matter but that's a complete different line of debate). If it was not willing to use the existing credit facility why would it decide to use a new credit facility? Secondly, if the Bank of England did take this route then surely other commercial banks would have cried foul and asked them for the same facility. That would have had all sorts of implications and is a decision that should not be taken quickly - HBOS on the other hand needed a quick fix to the immediate problem.

One should recognise that things are not set in stone. There is still scope for some sort of planned demerger in the future once credit markets and the general economic situation improve. It would not surprise me if that point the FSA asks LTSB to divest some of its interests - perhaps divesting the BOS part of the business would be a good start. But that cannot happen until the fundamental problems of the economy are tackled.
151

Arfur,

14/11/2008 15:47:27
193 Rufus T. Firefly - "Dont forget that SNP policy is for an independent Scotland to stay with the pound sterling" - ehh until we move to the Euro. Do you know nothing?

Can someone please find a dunce hat for Rufus.
152

Warden An' All, Reborn,

14/11/2008 15:47:50
200-"Hoots" Fandango-You know it's not the size of what you have in your hand, it what you are able to do with it.
153

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/11/2008 15:51:24
"192 "Hoots" Fandango,Hamilton 14/11/2008 15:37:48
Rufus

Are you being deliberately thick? Scotland has no stock exchange because Scotland isn't independent. Waken up."

Scotland does not have to be independent to have a Stock Exchange you idiot.

Jeezo, what a thicko.

(You said you ignore my posts, thank God for that, although I am not sure why you embarrassed yourself replying to this one).
154

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/11/2008 15:54:22
"199 Arfur,14/11/2008 15:41:20
#185 Rufus T. Firefly - MY GAWD. Not the dreaded put down on my spelling. How ever will i recover? Saddo."

Not a normal spelling put down though was it? Take time to look at the context.

Does that make sence?
155

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/11/2008 15:59:41
208 Arfur,14/11/2008 15:47:27
193 Rufus T. Firefly - "Dont forget that SNP policy is for an independent Scotland to stay with the pound sterling" - ehh until we move to the Euro. Do you know nothing?

Everybody knows that. I never said otherwise. How long do you think that would take? i.e. to swap one foreign currency for another?

What about Salmonds Central Bank of Scotland?
156

Richard,

West Lothian 14/11/2008 16:01:04

sm753,

"Ah! The Nat central conceit again. If you're not a Nat, you can't "care about Scotland". Well we do, love".

Hardly a conceit, merely the truth you can't by definition, care as much about Scotland compared to a nationalist.

End of.

157

Fred Quimby,

14/11/2008 16:03:55
200
"Hoots" Fandango,
Hamilton 14/11/2008 15:41:49
What d'ya know? I can get 13,685.63 new Zimbabwean dollars for a quid.

Are we weakening aginst the New Zimbabwean $ too..

By Feb /March 2009 1Pound UK will equal 1 Euro

Usual claptrap about making our exports cheaper; we don't make anything any more Gordon. The service side is fwucked and anyway Johnny Foreigner is short of the readies to buy the stuff we do not make.


Then, standby for some dirtyb deal with Frankfurt to shadow the Euro

Brown is the most incompetant, unprincipled, innumerate and mentally unstable Prime Minister we have ever had.

Time to hold nose and pull chain.

Flush Gordon
158

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/11/2008 16:04:10
"216 Richard,West Lothian 14/11/2008 16:01:04

Hardly a conceit, merely the truth you can't by definition, care as much about Scotland compared to a nationalist."

My Gawd, there is some dross being spoken by the NatZ this afternoon.

What do you base that on?
159

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/11/2008 16:04:58
Be quick, I am off to the pub in 5 minutes.
160

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/11/2008 16:06:02
In fact I am off to the pub to meet 2 rabid nationalists, so I am going to be getting grief all night!
161

brownlie,

14/11/2008 16:07:59
187 Red-face T

I don't have to hide behind multiple monikers like you. Are you still banned as Paisley Pete, Alfred E, Ciderperson etc etc?
162

Richard,

West Lothian 14/11/2008 16:10:05
Rufus T. Firefly,

You seek to deny Scotland it's political independence and have it subsumed within an unequal political union.

Hardly the actions of a patriot?
163

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/11/2008 16:11:22
When Alex Salmond was "What are your plans for defence in an independent Scotland?"

He replied "I'm gonna paint it de same colour as de house!"
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TWC,

14/11/2008 16:13:30
I'm Back, did you miss me?

The New Labour £ has soared to $1.48 and €1.16

we are in safe hands woops why are people moving out of Sterling don't they understand that we are best placed to come through this?
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Rufus T. Firefly,

14/11/2008 16:13:41
"brownlie,14/11/2008 16:07:59
187 Red-face T

I don't have to hide behind multiple monikers like you. Are you still banned as Paisley Pete, Alfred E, Ciderperson etc etc?"

brownlie, that is absolute nonsense. I only have this sign on. Why would I need more than one? It would not benefit me in any way.
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14/11/2008 16:15:54
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brownlie,

14/11/2008 16:19:42
225 Red-face

You, and your tedious postings, do not benefit anyone in any way.
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14/11/2008 16:27:12
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brownlie,

14/11/2008 16:36:01
232 Aberdeenshire Scot

Just wait until he comes back from the pub after two wine gums, five knock-backs and a sniff of the barmaid's apron and he'll revert to his Paisley Pete postings!
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brownlie,

14/11/2008 16:43:50
235 Bird of Prey

Astounding is not the word for it!!! Can you translate it into Gaelic (or English) for me.

PS: Spook claims you're a wind-up merchant.
Brownlie (the grass)?
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14/11/2008 16:44:19
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14/11/2008 16:51:43
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brownlie,

14/11/2008 16:53:25
239 Jwil

Doing things on the level is not Gordon's way.
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14/11/2008 16:56:25
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TWC,

14/11/2008 16:57:00
That Guy Rufus must finish work at half past 4 on a Friday. Disnae dae much work do ye think he works in the New Labour policy department?
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14/11/2008 16:58:04
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TWC,

14/11/2008 16:58:44
242 Jwil, what happened?

178

Astonished,

Inverclyde 14/11/2008 17:02:57
Jwil - The merger is because Lloyds appears to need a partner, jobs are needed in london (not Scotland) and the Lloyds' chairman is gordon's pal. This merger was always a pup - but with the supine media they thought they would get away with it!

Bad for jobs ,bad for Scotland, bad for the banks, bad for the economy,a secret deal,bad for shareholders - obviously gordon would recommend it as the only possible option (please examine his previous deals).


I am another refugee from the herald - this is my first post - on the scotsman.(you don't get capitals till you start telling the unvarnished truth - a story on martin's millions would be a good start !).
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brownlie,

14/11/2008 17:10:39
241 Bird of Prey

No, mixed-up is still with us. Anyway, thanks for #235 (lofl).
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Churchill W.,

14/11/2008 17:11:38
If the Bank of China has a rival bid for HBOS then they should go public with that and let the UK government rebut it. If Salmond has any information on that supposed bid he should publish, if he doesn't he should stop talking rubbish about some mythical "cold shoulder."
The Bank of Chinese cannot have much conviction in their bid if they walk away at the first sign of trouble, can they? The bid is more than likely a figment of Salmond's overwrought imagination.
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14/11/2008 17:15:29
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14/11/2008 17:16:17
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TWC,

14/11/2008 17:27:46
253 Aberdeenshire Scot

I see -- Thanks, I am relativelty new to Posting I only started to debate the Fiscal Indenpendence option with the SNP supporters but have been embarrased by the New Labour poodles who come on, post after post without a single policy.

It is so bad I've grown to detest them and that is not a good thing either because then I'll become the same as them.
You have to allow people their opinion and debate not just snarl all the time -- it can be seen at Holyrood where old Anabel makes more headway than the whole of New Labour - jolly hockey sticks.


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14/11/2008 17:29:09
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the.ally ,

max 14/11/2008 17:32:45
Here we go again peeps.

I'm on scotsgait if I get the bullet from here again.

Thank God Alex Salmond and the Scottish govenment has 'maxed-up' thier efforts to stop this insicere and brutal asset-stripping evil ploy of Lloyds effectively stealing HBOS.

I'm of the opinion that Gordon Brown's trip to Washington today didn't go very well. Since U.S Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson decided to retract the 700 billion that was ear-marked for 'toxic-debt', that has neant yuk banks are now back in the firing line; regardless if London is now the only 'independent' financial centre, (if the Lloyds HBOS takeover goes through), in the world.

That is why I urged all Scots, and Americans to try as hard as they could to stop the megalomaniac Gordon Brown from selling Scotland's independence down the river.

WHO'S LAUGHIN' NOW BROWN; YOU DELUSIONAL PSYCHOTIC MAD AMD WIERDO-CREEP.
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14/11/2008 17:34:27
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 17:39:43
Hello Ally - what's it like on the Herald then ? You've got to be sooooo polite. Are you on Scotsgait I think I signed up for that ages ago, can't remember but I keep on getting e mails.
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Churchill W.,

14/11/2008 17:40:43
Aberdeenshire Scot # Various

The Spook and I went to the Department of Linguistics today at our Alma Mater, Heriot Watt University and put some of your post through our syntax matching program. We discovered, although in ourselves we really knew, that you are Brownlie, Ayrshire Scot, Paisley Pete and others. Using multiple log-ins and pretending to be a Unionist before the Glasgow East by-election was good in parts, when others took over from you though it became obvious because they were clearly better educated than you and the seams showed.
Shame on you for fooling so many people over such a long time!
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14/11/2008 17:40:56
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14/11/2008 17:41:37
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Churchill W.,

14/11/2008 17:42:23
The Spook in Leith, # 266

I like your jokes, bring anybody you want, as long as you keep that big burd under control!
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14/11/2008 17:46:58
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Jolly,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 17:48:42
Yawn, yawn, yawn!!
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14/11/2008 17:48:48
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14/11/2008 17:49:18
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the.ally ,

14/11/2008 17:50:57
Hi Observer.1, I can't get my comments posted on ra'erald.

Tha's why i'm on this ragg.

don't know how long it will take the english crown staffers to block me again; wait and see.

No Wilhelm? Now that's unusal. Maybe he was a solle-pidgeon, and Baffled?

I think Brown's no laughin' now the U.S. has stuck the prezza up to him.

I think Alex Salmond and the Scottish government are doing a great job at trying to hold onto HBOS; I think it might work now.

Even Gordon Brown can't give us his delusional psychotic guffawing and crazy laughin'-boy antics now the U.S. has rescinded the 700 bail-out of toxic debt; that money was ear-marked for Barclays, RBS, and HSBC.
He was laughin' all the way to the bak having realised London (and Edinburgh), was left as the only real financial centre of the world after the havoc that reaped Wall St. The 5 big independent financial institutions all went to the wal, that made London the only equity market left independent in the world, if HBOS is sold down the river.

Got to go; I'm working on my book.

Glad I got on; ha, ha.

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Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 14/11/2008 17:51:42
252# Aberdeenshire Scot , It is evident that you come under the generic grouping of paraphiliac. Your endless preoccupation with Rufu's pyjamas suggest that there is a very real danger of you rendering yourself insane if this weakness is not confronted. May I suggest you visit your local kirk and get the Minister to squeeze the devil out of you.
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14/11/2008 17:52:24
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 17:55:37
Ally - you got on this afternoon. Gotta go too bye.
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TWC,

14/11/2008 18:03:53
281 Son of one of Stirlings finest,
You need to realise that Rufus is just a headache who contributes Zero.
Nats and Unionists ate sick of him, all except New Labour poodles that is
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Jolly,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 18:05:07
#278 and the rest of you as well!
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Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 14/11/2008 18:22:27
287# TWC. I thank you for your advice, but the simple fact is that we have to respect everyones right to an opinion, and I would defend your right just as vigorously as I would Rufu's, he may not always get it correct but he does keep a lot of people amused, and generally promotes responses and a good blog, he is consistently pro union , as I am, but that does not make him right, or me, only the people of Scotland can decide, I just think you deserve better representation than Alex Salmond
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Jolly,

Edinburgh 14/11/2008 18:24:35
#280 Are you really such an anarchist!! Ahhh, well!!
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Nevsky,

Moscow 14/11/2008 18:35:59
256sm753:

'I wish to it derive its share of the political, economic, social and national-security benefits of membership of a larger union, and to play its full (in fact larger than full) role in guiding the destinies of that union.'

What a load of completely meanigless and hollow rubbish.

1. Scotland after 300 years of the union has some of the worst poverty in Europe.

2. What political benefits are you on about? Conservative government in the 80s a benefit? What political benfits does Scotland gain being rules 500 miles away in London?

3. Economic benefits? Really? I thought Scotland had one of the lowest growth rates in Europe?

4. Membership of a larger union. Agreed, better Scotland in Europe than the economic failure of the UK; Europe has much more strength.

5. Destiny of the union, have you lost your mind? The union is failing, the UK is failing.

That is it, that is all you have to say on your core belief in the union? An nationalist could put a far stronger case for independence than that load of codswollop!

This is presumably why, with no vision whatsoever, it is better to feel bitter to those who have a real vision for their country.

Would love to hear the unions future plabs for Scotland and ideas for the future, any ideas? You will just be reduced to sentimentality soon, very lame indeed!


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14/11/2008 18:38:47
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P Rayner.,

Latin America. 14/11/2008 18:39:14
That the Prime Minister of Great Britain is facing increased pressure from Salmond and that Salmonds intervention is a ¨major escalation¨is laughable. Those in government and banking circles, with infinitely more power and knowledge than Salmond will, I suspect, attempt to resolve those issues of HBoS´s future, ïn the best interest of HBoS, which is afterall a British bank, oblivious of the ilk of Salmond.
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Gorach,

Dunadd 14/11/2008 18:40:42
BoS plays a huge part in Scottish life.
Here's what will happen if Lloyds takes over HBoS and their are Scottish branch closures and layoffs as a result.

There will be anger.
Scots will move their accounts.
Some Scottish HBOS workers will quit.
Many Labour Scots will move to the SNP.

Make no mistake..this is an emotional issue and may very well be the trigger that ends the union.


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14/11/2008 18:42:21
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Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 14/11/2008 18:50:16
293# Aberdeenshire Scot, I see my entreaty that you get help for your Paraphilia came too late. Your last contribution clearly shows your degree of deteriation. May I urge you to offer your cadaver for medical experimentation in order that some good may come of your sad life.
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W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 14/11/2008 18:51:46
296

Gorach, end of the union? Urine. The HBOS shareholders will vote overwhelmingly for the LTSB deal - and rightly so. Nobody has an appetite for risk apart from romanticists such as yourself who will gladly sell HBOS and its employees down the river. Scotland deserves better.
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W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 14/11/2008 18:53:12
When will we get balanced opinions from The Scotsman and not the usual nationalist drivel? Scotland desreves better.
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P Rayner.,

Latin America 14/11/2008 18:56:45
296. I believe you to be wrong. HBoS is a British bank, not a Scottish one and as such has interests throughout these islands. Except in narrow terms it matters not one jot to most where the headquarters are to remain. Where they are to remain will most likely be decided on purely commercial terms, which most accept. Were the foundations of the UK so weak that a collapse might occur if triggered by a movement of bank headquarters the Union would have ceased long ago.
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14/11/2008 19:03:55
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Ewan M,

14/11/2008 19:04:00
Salmond blames Westminster AGAIN.
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14/11/2008 19:18:40
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Conan the Librarian™,

14/11/2008 19:21:05
316
Aye Hoots.Once they see the hits go down it may change.
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14/11/2008 19:24:39
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The Online Scot,

... A Herald refugee .. 14/11/2008 19:37:56
Fellow refugees may be interested in a new blog on the BBC. The blog is from Douglas fraser and one of the subjects currently under discussion is the perilous state of newspapers in Scotland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/douglasfraser/

No prizes for guessing the two weekday papers currently struggling !!
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14/11/2008 19:39:42
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14/11/2008 20:04:22
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14/11/2008 20:10:52
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14/11/2008 20:55:01
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14/11/2008 20:58:31
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You can stick your independence up your a***!!,

14/11/2008 21:11:03
I see our resident Natzis are present with their usual intolerance.

Juan Kerr let's the mask drop for the racists that inhabit the grass roots of the nationalist movement - if you are not Scottish but live in Scotland you are not entitled to an opinion.

Ein volk, ein reich, ein fuhrer - is it?
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14/11/2008 21:19:59
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14/11/2008 21:20:50
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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 21:22:38
336 good comment. One wonders if there will be a test of Scottish citizenship if the SNP, a small protest party, ever manage to convince anough people to vote for them. What will happen to people who don't pass.
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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 21:23:15
Cultural protection one wonders where that will end.
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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 21:24:30
Who sold the land and who cleared the highlands Mr Kerr. Scots did, where does that fit in with your cultural protection. Do you watch Braveheart a lot.
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14/11/2008 21:25:09
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Conan the Librarian™,

14/11/2008 21:27:54
336
There is an unwritten law on internet blogs that makes the person who firsts invokes the Nazis as some sort of ignorant pr!ck.
Somebody called Godwin I believe.

Congratulations.
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14/11/2008 21:28:10
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You can stick your independence up your a***!!,

14/11/2008 21:28:31
Juan Kerr - you are such a bundle of fun.

Our very own Geheime Staatspolizei for these boards - logging our every utterance to us in his little war.
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14/11/2008 21:29:49
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14/11/2008 21:31:34
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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 21:32:12
346 Stop watching films and learn your own history. It was Scots who sold out Scots just as English sold out English.
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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 21:33:18
350 Are you drunk
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You can stick your independence up your a***!!,

14/11/2008 21:33:23
#345 He is a racist though Conan - he believes non-Scots living here are not entitled to have a say - so much for us all being Jack Tamson's bairns. It's that nasty side of some of the grass roots nationalists (NOTE I did not say the SNP) that sticks in my throat. Some nationalists can be very progressive in their outlook - it's a shame others give them a bad name.
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Nevsky,

Moscow 14/11/2008 21:34:59
347 Stick#

As a quisling you are well versed in commenting on Nazis, but i have never met one in the SNP.

I have however met a BNP member once in Bradford, not quite the same as cuddly nats believe me!

But you qualify as a quisling neverthless.

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Nevsky,

Moscow 14/11/2008 21:37:32
351 Lady Muck#

Actuall the clearences happened after the first generation had been educated in England and inter-married with English aristos. The Duke of Sutherland could hardly be described as a Scot, although their lackeys were without question Scots.

Unless you can tell me the names of Highland Chiefs born, bred and educated who cleared their people, i am unaware of any.
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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 21:38:20
355 how will you treat quislings if SNP win independence.
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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 21:40:31
357 The Duke of Sutherland was a Scot that is indisputable. You blame the clearances on the Duke being educated in England I think its because he was a Duke.
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You can stick your independence up your a***!!,

14/11/2008 21:43:15
Actually Lady Muck it was the Scottish ruling classes who sold out the Scottish working classes - just as the English ruling classes have sold out the English working classes throughout the ages.

C'est plus ca change!!

Brown, Darling are no different from the likes of Alasdair Ranaldson MacDonell of Glengarry or MacLeod of MacLeod who sold their own people into indentured labour.
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Nevsky,

Moscow 14/11/2008 21:45:41
358 Muck#

We will leave the with their shame! Maybe brand them with the Irn Bru logo and make them work in tourist shops in Inverness selling tartan and shortbread, fair punishment i think.

They are all turncoats anyway, where are all those businessmen and Tories who campaigned against the Scottish Parliament? Now some of them are it's staunchest defenders.

Tories calling for more fiscal powers for the Parliament was unthinkable 20 years ago!
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14/11/2008 21:46:00
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Conan the Librarian™,

14/11/2008 21:46:34
353
Well, your moniker is an aggressive statement against us all who believe in Independence.

And I think I recognise your style...

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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 21:47:24
360 I am with you. People like Mr Kerr are wrong in thinking that it was the 'english' who are responsible for all Scotlands problems. They also ignore the English working class who dont have things any better than them. That makes one worry about independence especially when words such as quisling are used. He was shot by firing squad.
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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 21:50:00
363 I have two legs to stand on. The Duke of Sutherland was Scottish fact. He was the Duke of SUTHERLAND ergo Scottish.
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14/11/2008 21:50:21
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14/11/2008 21:50:59
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14/11/2008 21:51:28
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Nevsky,

Moscow 14/11/2008 21:51:49
359 Lady Muck#

The Marquiss of Stafford was an Englishman who married a Dutchess and became the Duke of Sutherland.

He was English born and bred. What are you talking about?
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14/11/2008 21:52:09
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14/11/2008 21:53:57
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14/11/2008 21:55:46
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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 21:56:05
369 and 371 so what ? It doesn't matter where he was born he didn't clear the Highlands because he was english.
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Nevsky,

Moscow 14/11/2008 21:56:23
Lady Muck#

As far as i am aware there were no cleareces prior to the act of union.

It became LAW after the 1745 for ALL clan chieftains to have their children educated in England.

The were English educated and inter-married with the English, that is why they all speak with Eton accents.

About as Scottish and Highland as Angus Hamburger from Tennessee!

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Nevsky,

Moscow 14/11/2008 21:57:25
378 Muck#

Your point was that it was Scots that cleared Scots.

It wasn't.

It was an Englishman.
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14/11/2008 21:58:39
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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 21:59:42
381 380 376

Alasdair Ranaldson MacDonnell of Glengarry
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14/11/2008 22:00:57
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14/11/2008 22:03:45
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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 22:05:13
385 I thought you were an expert on the highland clearances

357 that is your answer Alasdair Ranaldson MacDonnell of Glengarry a so called Highland chief who evicted his tenants

I just looked up wikipedia why dont you do that
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14/11/2008 22:06:52
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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 22:07:52
The Highland clearances were part of a UK wide period of change moving people off the land into cities which were being industrialised and needed labour and clearing ground for different agricultural methods.
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Nevsky,

Moscow 14/11/2008 22:07:57
384 Muck#

Glengarry was by no means The Duke of Stafford. It was only the event of the union that brought about the clearances that is for sure.

The union destroyed the highlands and forced the people from the land to pay for the London lifestyle of the Anglo/Scottish chieftains.

Probably the worst legay of the union is the Highlands as a wasteland and i know from first hand experience that haterd the Scots in Canada and Australia have for the treaty of union and how the people were subsequently treated.
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puskas,

East kilbride 14/11/2008 22:08:02
The split between political party's in the postal vote Glenrothes. ??? Anyone

Silence is golden.
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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 22:10:08
English people suffered their own version but Scots Nationalists dont admit that it doesnt fit in with their sense of persecution. It was Scottish law that allowed all the tenants to be evicted.
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14/11/2008 22:11:20
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Nevsky,

Moscow 14/11/2008 22:12:20
389 Muck#

To some extent true but not for the Highlands, they were cleared for sheep. Did you know that the people of Sutherland were forced onto strips of land by the sea-cliffs and that they had to tie their children to a stake to stop the wind taking them into the sea?

Did you know that?

That is what the union did for the Highlands and don't start talking about England. What the people in the Highlands suffered was an absolute disgrace and could easily be called a genocide!
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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 22:12:32
390 where is your evidence to support your claim that the highland clearances would not have happened without the union, would we all still be living like it was 1707 if the union hadnt happened. You have watched to many films.
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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 22:13:51
A genocide who is invoking godwins law now where are the millions dead.
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14/11/2008 22:14:03
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Nevsky,

Moscow 14/11/2008 22:14:27
392 Muck#

Cr*p, whole villages were thrown onto boats to Australia with 25% dying in the process. People were burnt out of their houses and were forced to live of the sea shore in winter.

Stop talking sh*t!
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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 22:15:51
394 they all wanted more money, English, Scots, Irish, all the landlords who wanted more money and treated their tenants worse than animals were the same. But Scottish Nationalists dont admit that.
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14/11/2008 22:16:11
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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 22:17:35
398 you are wrong the highland clearances were one of the last big shifts of people to make way for agriculture. It was particularly brutal but it wasnt unique.
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14/11/2008 22:18:40
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puskas,

East kilbride 14/11/2008 22:19:01
Hi Joe.

Highly unusual that the someone in the media has not broken ranks...

Quite normal after elections' for studio guests to discuss ballot and postal votes and any differance between percentage attributed to each party..

Nothing, absolutely nothing has been brought to the public's attention.
Electoral Commission a no, no.. Zilch.

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Gorach,

Dunadd 14/11/2008 22:19:45
Romantic? Hardly.
An emotional attachment to Scotland? Yes.
Well versed in Scottish history? Yes.
Prefers to deal with Scottish companies? Yes.
Understands the feelings of principled Scots? Yes.

Scotland needs more of us.



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Lady Muck,

14/11/2008 22:20:29
I cant find the highland clearances listed under any article on genocide 401 please provide your evidence that it is objectively assessed as a genocide.
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14/11/2008 22:20:59
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14/11/2008 22:21:51
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Nevsky,

Moscow 14/11/2008 22:24:30
400 Muck#

Of course we admit it, what are you talking about. But it was the Anglification of the Highland Chieftains and the Landlords that created it and that is an historical fact.

It might have happened if Scotland was independent, no-one knows but it would most probably have happened in a different way.

It was a genocide, those that were not murdered after the 45 were forced to leave and the process continiued until the 1930s.

Highlanders have been forced or encouraged to leave their homeland for 300 years, this (it can be argued) has been a deliberate policy of the union.

I read somewhere once the staggering figure than if 1/4 had left the population of the Higlands would today be somewhere in the region of 30 million.

You think they would be well disposed to the union? I think not!
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Nevsky,

Moscow 14/11/2008 22:27:30
407 Joe#

I sent a freedom of information request regarding this to the electoral commission asking for a breakdown of the votes etc and they have not as yet replied, they have by law another 24 hours.

I think Glasgow east had somewhere near 2800 postal votes so Glenrothes seem way over the top.

Where were 7000 Fifers who were desperate to vote?
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14/11/2008 22:28:15
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14/11/2008 22:28:43
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Conan the Librarian™,

14/11/2008 22:32:43
374
Perhaps you?

The wonderful internet, where you can be anybody you want to be.

And research styles and phrases.
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14/11/2008 22:33:36
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 22:36:16
Lady Muck just type in ''Highland clearances'' and ''genocide'' and you will find an article which says:

''The Highland clearances can be traced to the consequences of the failure of the Jacobite rebellion in the C18th. The revenge of the English dealt a huge blow to the culture of the Highland clan system...''

God, no offence to nationalists but this paper is dire, and so is the quality of your unionists. I want the Herald back.
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Conan the Librarian™,

14/11/2008 22:36:43
413
Probably still are; but in a more physical way.
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14/11/2008 22:37:12
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Conan the Librarian™,

14/11/2008 22:42:54
416
Observer 1
When the Scotsman went to this risible format(compared to what it was) we were all p'd off anaw.

There is a protest site.
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 22:48:43
Thanks I've seen it posted I will go and sign it now.
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14/11/2008 22:54:01
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 22:55:02
Can't sign it, I want to get the bleedin' comments back.
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14/11/2008 22:56:13
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 23:11:11
Not when it was put on, no. But I want them to bring back comments which are not premoderated. Also, although I started off saying I wouldn't comment, ''Alex'' (who is Councillor Alex Gallacher) is all over it, so I think comments need to be made to counter him.
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14/11/2008 23:14:50
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Conan the Librarian™,

14/11/2008 23:17:17
423
Bit personal, Joe.

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Millerman1,

14/11/2008 23:17:53
425- should read strict
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karin.m,

14/11/2008 23:18:49
425 they got fed up with the unionist trolls. who just posted mindless abuse.
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Camy B,

The burgh 14/11/2008 23:19:12
According to a programme this evening on TV, Britain has recognised Chinese soverignty over Tibet. After almost 60 years. Has this got anything to do with the Chinese withdrawing their offer from HBOS and saving Gordon Brown from a severe embarrassment?

If this is the case it shows Labour to be the immoral, slimey toads that some people think the are.

Anyone know anymore about this?

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karin.m,

14/11/2008 23:19:47
424 hes going to look silly if he is the only commenter.
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karin.m,

14/11/2008 23:20:47
429 WHAT!
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 23:22:30
Millerman - are you using your old hotmail address ? I had to make up a new one it wouldn't take the old one. And you've got to type in the Heraldtalk website address as well on the last line, for some reason.

I have a horrible feeling part of the reason they actually put this new site on was because we all complained so much about fakes, oops should have kept schtum.
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Millerman1,

14/11/2008 23:24:01
421- Why do you want to bin the Herald?, was there not some people wanting to bin the Scotsman at some point aswell?

I do not get it why post here then?

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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 23:24:18
430 No Karin Alex is that rarest of beasts, a smart unionist. He will use the site to Labour's advantage.
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Millerman1,

14/11/2008 23:35:44
428- Thanks. i have not posted for sometime , the fake posting seems to be a new thing or at least to me.

432-Thanks. i will try a new email address and change my username, the Herald should just have deleted and banned abusive posters, the Sunday Herald used to be really bad for fake posters, i gave up posting as you did not know if it was a genuine poster.
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Churchill W.,

14/11/2008 23:39:47
Rufus T. Firefly # 189

All the spivs and speculators responsible for destroying the Scottish banks are pals of Alec Salmond.
Salmond is complicit in the destruction of the Scottish banks and hopes to profit from their resurrection. Salmond is a false prophet.
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 23:42:51
429, yes you are right. Big coverage in the ''Toronto Star''. None here. Hmmmm.
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 23:44:07
437 were you a breach birth ?
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Churchill W.,

14/11/2008 23:44:44
Nevsky # 410

When was the last "highlander" forced to leave their highland home?
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 14/11/2008 23:52:45
I'm bored I'm waiting for my daughter to come home from a night out, and there's hee haw on the telly. Are you really a unionist Churchill and if so, why ? I should have asked you if you were a breech birth, bad spelling, slaps own wrist.
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karin.m,

14/11/2008 23:59:21
anyone see the first minister on children in need it was good.
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Millerman1,

15/11/2008 00:01:22
Just taken a look at the bintheherald pledge, a bit strange really, what is the point clearly you are attacking anyone or newspaper who does not sing from your own sheet and it is not free speech as if it was all voices should be heard, i would suggest you start a blog of your own as you are looking very stupid with this pledge and so is anybody who signs it, i would think it would be illegal aswell, i think this is a classic case of you are not getting away with what you want to say while blocking anyone who disagrees with your views, i would drop the free speech part as it is clear that the statement from you is not.

I am a strong supporter of the SNP but again i do believe that all voices should be heard including the BNP, Unionists etc, many people call the SNP voters racist so i think if someone is abusive ignore it, i think it is making us Nationalists look bad with this silly pledge.



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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 15/11/2008 00:03:36
437 do you have any idea how silly that post was. It's off the Richter scale.
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Millerman1,

15/11/2008 00:04:39
442- Yes and not bad aswell.

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Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 15/11/2008 00:05:42
Hello Rufus,
Just got in from a spiffing production of Me And My Girl at the Weston Playhouse, Aberdeen Twot still thinks I am you, I must have a very fast car, off to bed now for some jollies.
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Churchill W.,

15/11/2008 00:05:55
Observer. 1 # 441

I'm sorry that your daughter is not home yet when you want her home, believe me.
As for being a Unionist, I do not like Salmond, everything else is up for grabs. Salmond is not genuine.
Why the snide breech birth question? Do you get a kick out of being like the rest of the SNP support who believe that disabled people are less human than the rest of us?
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 15/11/2008 00:10:57
447 Don't be silly I expect young ones to enjoy themselves, what an old misery you must be. It's just a pain having to wait up. So you are a unionist because of the personality of the First Minister ? Put that to the side. I have searched the Herald high and low, mainly low, looking for someone to justify the status quo. Can't find them. Maybe there's one on here. That's your cue.
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Churchill W.,

15/11/2008 00:20:31
Observer. 1, #444

There was me thinking that the Richter Scale had something to do with earthquakes.
If anyone gets gets caught in one of my, inadvertent, off scale (Richter) quakes then I am sorry. Please send the invoice to the Scotsman so that the Spook can forward it to me from his database of people who post here!
Spook when you come round, leave that big burd in the boot of the car. You know that what that burd leaves behind cannot be deposited in any bank and is not collateral, whatever Alec Salmond promises.
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Millerman1,

15/11/2008 00:24:31
When i used to comment on the Herald there was a Wardog, he was very good at coming up with facts and figures and posted alot and in depth, what ever happened to Wardog does he still post?

Observer- I think you also used to post alot on the Herald ?, please correct me if i am wrong or getting mixed up with someone else, some of the others will come back to me.

Due to being in the Middle East working you are very limited to what you can view on line so have not posted for sometime although will again now i am back in Scotland.
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 15/11/2008 00:24:33
Tut tut, displacement activity. Just say good night if you can't answer my questions. I'll be gone in a wee while anyway, and I'm not a Scotsman poster so am unaware of your apparent feuds.
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Churchill W.,

15/11/2008 00:25:00
Observer. 1 # 448

Just remember that next time I take your daughter out. If she likes older men to enjoy herself with I am glad that it not a problem with you, Papa!
Can I call you Papa, Papa?
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 15/11/2008 00:27:24
Hello Millerman what did you used to post as ? Were you in Dubai ? There was a good period of posting a while back, then unfortunately it got wrecked by people faking others, Wardog was a major victim and it all went wrong.
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 15/11/2008 00:30:30
You can call me Mrs Observer - you do have a rather peurile attitude to posting on this paper don't you. You seem to have a who can pee the highest thing going on, it's quite sweet, reminds me of being at school.
331

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 15/11/2008 00:42:00
Poor old Winston, such a shame, as if he could ''pull'' a young girl. How offensive. Deary me, completely unable to justify unionism, forced to resort to sexism. There is no more reason from the posters on here to support the union than you got on the Herald. And that's saying something.
332

Millerman1,

15/11/2008 00:57:17
Hi Observer, used to use same name as here, i was not a heavy poster but did like reading the comments, often better than what the paper had written.

Yes, the faking seems to have been a big problem, i wonder what it was all about and what was the point, ok a bit of fun maybe but when it get`s out of hand, which clearly it did, there was a person called Sam or Sammy i think who posted on the Sunday Herald and i am sure he/she was a faker and a Unionist for sure although sometimes this Sam/Sammy posted posts that were pleasant but i guess that would be the original or another one, they are all best ignored regadless of what party they claim to support.
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15/11/2008 01:04:39
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 15/11/2008 01:04:59
Hi Millerman, I didn't understand what the faking was about. It's not as if anyone was fooled. It was just juvenile. There is an element of junevilism in posting, which I have just demonstrated, but mainly I take it seriously. But I am off to bed and will endeavour to be more serious next time. Good night, and welcome back, hope to talk to you again.
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15/11/2008 01:05:40
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15/11/2008 01:08:18
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 15/11/2008 01:13:18
Juan Kerr why would I be Alex McPherson? Eh ?

I'm great with ping pong balls but that's another subject.

Goodnight.
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15/11/2008 01:17:07
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15/11/2008 01:18:59
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 15/11/2008 01:23:57
Juan the guy who posts on the Herald as ''Alex'' is Councillor Alex Gallacher but so far only on the Herald. G'nite. He's in North ayrshire.
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15/11/2008 01:35:44
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BIG EYE,

Paisley 15/11/2008 01:43:35
Alex Gallacher what a man!.

The man who will defend the Labour Party in any situation.Iraq, pensions, currency devaluation,job losses,unemployment figures...no issue too far!

As we descend to oblLivion be consoled by the devotion of this nutter from Largs.

Best Beware is the best advice!
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15/11/2008 01:50:27
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subrosa,

15/11/2008 03:11:25
Surely this Alex Gallacher bloke can't be any worse than the MP who was on Newsnicht Thursday night. Speak about a puppet...
345

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 15/11/2008 08:47:31
This latest news from ITN, confirms my post of three weeks ago, when I warned this forum that there will be a run on the pound. It appears that my forecast is coming true, even though I take NO pleasure in the fact. Please read the following forecast by George Osbourne.

The shadow chancellor risked accusations that he was talking down the pound as he mounted a ferocious attack on the Government.

He said the Prime Minister was pursuing a "scorched earth" policy, intending to leave the economy in ruins for when the Tories came to power.

Mr Osborne said people instinctively understood that the state could not borrow itself out of trouble. The weight of debt would stifle recovery and create a major risk for sterling, he added.

"Sterling has devalued rapidly against the euro and the dollar," Mr Osborne said.

"We are in danger, if the Government is not careful, of having a proper sterling collapse, a run on the pound.

"The danger of a run on the pound . . . is that it pushes up long-term interest rates, which is a huge burden on the economy.

"The more you borrow as a government the more you have to sell that debt and the less attractive your currency seems."

Gordon Brown is persuing a "SCORCHED EARTH POLICY" indeed, but it is not simply being done to spite the English Tory Party. Brown intends to create the run on the pound to declare a "State of Emergency" and assume total emergency powers to "Dictate" to the three nations that make up an unwilling UK.The Parliaments will be suspended and Brown will then spin the message that we need to join the EuroZone to stop the complete breakdown of Society. That is why he snuck away to sign the membership to an EU that the Nations didt vote for in the denied referendum. Mandelson was quite convenietly hidden away in Europe for the last few years, preparing the way for this momentous moment, then just recently returned to Government to manage the Financial Collapse for Brown and his New Labour Party.

Europ
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A Better Way,

Edinburgh 15/11/2008 09:03:48
Continued/

Europe will declare special powers to manage the absorbtion of the Bankrupt UK. The NewWorld Order Plan Stage 1 will be completed. The first of Three World Zones will be completed within the next 12 months.

For all you people out there who doubt my words, have a look at the events of the last 18 months. The Lloyds/HBOS merger, plus Northern Rock, Bradford and Bingley,Royal Bank of Scotland will all be either owned by the Brown Government, or Controlled By The Dictator Brown and the new fascist order.

Oh by the way, there is absolutely nothing the people will be able to do about it. Foreign Troops will ensure population control.

I am taking bets if you think I am wrong, the bulk of UK Troops are based overseas Especially our Brave Scottish Laddies and Lasses. There are little or no firearms with which the people can fight the theft of their rights. Scotland will suffer the most losses out of the occupation of the UK, followed by the Muslims, West Indians and Indian population. England will need their minorities to blame for the collapse. Prepare for the Purge.

Here Endeth The Lesson. Good Luck and above all else Saor Alba and het Children.
347

TWC,

15/11/2008 09:42:31
467 A Better Way,Edinburgh,
"Yes the Emperor has no clothes" is a term that attaches itself easily to Mr Brown.
He is allowed to con us by our press and media but I think Mr Osborne is a smart lad and he knows Mr Brown is Gambling here and losing because other nations see the Pound is greatly exposed, and the he plans to use tax credits as the method of funding. I bet the Drug sellers are reieved -- Brown has to go.

Observer On the subject of Alex, I know him well and have debated with him for over 20 years, originally we agreed on most things but I can't stand New labour now.
He's actually OK, not a poodle any way. He will state his beliefs about Policies and I know for sure he was not Pro Iraq war.
There again he may have changed too.
348

TWC,

15/11/2008 09:48:30
BTW why did Baby P disappear off the front page? is it anti Labour perchance?
349

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 15/11/2008 11:09:46
For Salmond to no even to bother to turn up and vote for his own SNP led motion in the House of Commons a few weeks ago in his capacity of MP for Banff and Buchan, (remember that part-time job?), preferring to waste taxpayers time and moiney in Glenrothes, I think its a bit rich for him now to try and lead this attack.

Alex Neill and Tavish Scott have more right to protest and with Vince Cable doing the same down south we do have champions who can hold their heads up high.

Salmond is a national embaressment and the sooner the gullible awaken to this fact the better this country will be.
350

TWC,

15/11/2008 11:12:32
470 Liberal for life,

Hello there a Liberal that's rare on here

when are the Libdems going to come out with propposals for Scotlands Finanes ie Fiscal Auronomy.
I've beed waiting for rhe Federal option for 30 years
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dude,

wishaw 15/11/2008 16:51:10
Not as big a national embarassment as the relevation that Gordon Brown is an orangeman, was a member of the apprentise boys, now we all know where his hatred of Scotland comes from. How can a man with his extremist views become PM and actively destroy Scotlands in any way he can " i will do anything to prerserve the union"
in the name of 'brittishness'
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Haggis MacBagpipes,

Central Canada - ex Perth & Glesca' 15/11/2008 23:10:56
Breaking News: Received Saturday, Nov.15,08..1.22PM
Central Standard Time(Canada)

World Leaders pledge to work together to resume global growth and reform financial systems in an effort to tackle the economic crisis.
Cheers,
Haggis MacBagpipes™©
353

Vaward,

17/11/2008 05:37:27
#288

Nevsky: "4. Membership of a larger union. Agreed, better Scotland in Europe than the economic failure of the UK; Europe has much more strength."



Total nonsense. The UK economy has totally outperformed that of Europe over the last 25 years. Indeed, Europe has been in and out of recession constantly over this period, and has beaten Britain into recession this time round as well. And will most likely feel it far harder than the UK over the next few years.


 

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