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Published Date: 23 March 2008
SCOTTISH Labour is facing a major split amid fresh demands that it swing to the left in order to prevent future electoral disaster.
A coordinated campaign will be staged at this week's party conference in Aviemore, with left-wingers demanding that Gordon Brown and Scottish party leader Wendy Alexander ditch the Blairite policies of New Labour and return to old-fashioned Socialism
.

The group – who include union bosses, executive officials, and MPs – fear their traditional support will defect as the SNP is seen to fill the vacuum on the left.

However, their plans are being bitterly resisted by the centre-left with one high-ranking insider claiming they simply wanted to return to the 1980s and Old Labour. "It's like they want to watch UK Gold," the source said.

The row comes with the party heading for its Scottish conference following a debilitating 12 months which has seen them lose power at Holyrood and face internal turmoil.

New leader Alexander has been forced to fight off revelations she accepted an illegal donation to her leadership campaign. The party has also been rocked by damaging claims that Brown sought to deal over the heads of Scottish party leaders during last year's election campaign in a desperate bid to keep the SNP out.

Left-wingers within the group now say the party should make a clean break from the UK party by showing itself to be a genuine socialist movement. They are supporting a petition which has been put together by the left-wing pressure group Compass for the conference. Among those backing it is Union chief and vice-chair of the party Dave Watson, Falkirk MP Michael Connarty and Dave Moxham, assistant general secretary of the STUC (Scottish Trade Union Congress).

The petition states: "People know they're not living in the 'good society' promised to them. The Scottish people wanted Labour to do this for them, to explain what we did wrong and address it; it failed to do so. Labour forgot or was scared to do what the Left has always tried to do; to critique capitalism and to make markets the servants of society."

Willie Sullivan, the Scottish convener of Compass, said: "The problem with New Labour is that they are not new and they are not Labour enough. Compass is calling for Labour to use the Scottish defeat as an opportunity to try and make the political weather, not just find the best place to shelter from it."

Connarty said he would like to see a different approach to issues, including the closure of Post Offices and the rights of temporary agency workers.

However, Blairites in the party last night hit back. One senior figure said:

"People are going back to their gut instincts and they are not thinking clearly. Appealing to our traditional core of voters is not enough."

Meanwhile, in a pre-conference interview, Alexander insisted that the party would remain 'New Labour'.

And in a pamphlet to be published this week, she declares: "We in the Labour party have been fortunate to live in a time when politics in the English-speaking world has been dominated by three of the most gifted politicians of the centre-left – Bill Clinton, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown".

But Labour party insiders said that the mood in the party remained grim following last year's defeat. One MSP said: "There is almost a recognition that we're out of power for the foreseeable future. We're also thinking the unthinkable that Gordon is going to get booted out as well."

More power for Holyrood 'would help stop English anger'

A beefed-up Parliament at Holyrood would help to dampen growing English resentment against Scotland, Wendy Alexander will declare this week.

The Scottish Labour leader uses a pamphlet to warn that the current devolved settlement "is helping to fuel English irritations".

She says that her plans to claim greater powers for Holyrood, so that it no longer would rely entirely on a £30bn grant from Whitehall, would ease that tension.

Alexander, right, will address the Scottish Labour Party conference in Aviemore this Saturday. In her pamphlet, she says: "I intend that we should be the party of change. We must be bold, united and Labour."

The SNP last night seized on one section of the pamphlet which appears to hint that some powers could be handed back to Westminster. SNP MSP Keith Brown said: "This is an utter humiliation for Wendy Alexander. Her Commission and her credibility are now in tatters."



The full article contains 753 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 22 March 2008 7:05 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Scottish Labour Party
 
1

Why Are 400,000 Leaving The UK Each Year ?,

22/03/2008 20:59:34
It is rude to intrude on private grief.

The Labour Party, New and Old is bereft and should be left to expire in private.
2

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 00:11:59
All too late, loads of former left wingers have joined the SNP and are going at Labour with great zeal.
3

karinxx,

23/03/2008 00:25:20
would the last socialist in the labour party please turn off the lights.

No seriously if you beleive in social justice what the heck are you doing in the labour party they gave up all their morals when they became neu laboor.


come join us at snp supporters instead and support a party that really is for the people.
4

Grant,

Scotland 23/03/2008 00:26:52
And the strange thing is; the SNP aren't really behaving like a Left Wing Party, but they seem to be satiating something that Labour isn't able to do when it comes to attracting and retaining left wingers.

Amazing.
5

,

23/03/2008 00:41:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

Edward,

23/03/2008 00:53:12
There are now so many fractures within Labour in Scotland its in danger of completely crumbling!
Those in Labour that call for ditching Blairite dogma, have it it on the nail.
Unfortunately Brown is a control freak and Alexander (brother or sister) are his puppets, like most of the Westminster cabinet
7

Marky Bhoy,

Dinfermline 23/03/2008 01:00:55
People who voted Labour in Scotland from Blairs election in 1997 up to the present day have got nothing remotley resembling the Left wing government they thought they voted for

LABOUR RIGHT WING PRO TAX PRO WAR PRO LIES and more Unionist than the DUP
8

leith_man,

edinburgh 23/03/2008 01:01:07
Ay right #5. What are your subs being spent on? Oh yes, let me remind myself:

* Alex Salmond attended two sessions with a stylist at £235 each, for "personal styling and "arranging hair-make up". Deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon also attended one, bringing the total cost to £705. The stylist was Monica Loudon. The first is recorded as being for "personal styling for Mr Salmond". The latter, attended along with Sturgeon, is recorded as being for "arranging hair/make-up for SNP broadcast"

* The party also spent £18,375 hiring a personal helicopter for Salmond

* Salmond ran up a £4,500 hotel bill at Edinburgh's plush Caledonian Hotel, where he stayed regularly in the months leading up to the election, spending more than £1,000 on food and drink, staying a total of 21 nights. On top of the £130-a-night cost of a room, Salmond racked up more than £1,000 on food and drink

* On April 23 - 10 days before the poll - Salmond paid for a £154 dinner on his personal account, along with a £107 drinks bill. He then ordered a can of Red Bull and a packet of Chocolate Raisins from his room's mini bar

* The following night he charged the SNP a further £68 for dinner and £24 for drinks

* On election day itself, Salmond holidayed at the Marcliffe at Pitfodels hotel in Aberdeen, where he spent £79 for dinner and £10 for wine (we're guessing that's for a glass, not a bottle)

* The following day, with the election result still not declared, Salmond found time to enjoy another lunch at the hotel, again for £79

* On April 20, the party paid a £2,300 bill at top Edinburgh restaurant Oloroso to pay for a breakfast

* The party also spent £3,643 at Slaters department store on new suits for its male candidates
9

Edward,

23/03/2008 01:06:31
From the Sunday Times
Charles Clarke releases ‘doomsday list’ of Labour MPs at risk
http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/doomsdaymemo.pdf
10

Edward,

23/03/2008 01:09:07
#8 leith_man
Still a lot less than what Labour spent
but then again Labour was funded by a lot of dodgy donors. How else could Wendy afford her Armani suits
11

subrosa,

23/03/2008 01:12:45
Tom Brown's comments for what they're worth :http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/opinion/Tom-Brown-Saving-Wendy-is.3906448.jp#2625463
12

subrosa,

23/03/2008 01:14:34
# 8

Such a delight to see that the SNP are open and accountable for every penny they spent isn't it?
13

W Smith,

Middle East 23/03/2008 01:38:34
The loony Left SNP and Scottsih labour are confusing the following:

1) Tony Blair's successful economic policy, at least for England, which included ditching Clause IV and making Labour electable again.

The fact that Mr Brown has spent over 4 trillion pounds during his time of Chancellor tells us about England's dynamic private sector.

If its that easy to create wealth then how come Castro and Kim Jong II can't do it?

2) The 'unpopular' Iraq War that saw Howard, Bush and Blair getting reelected while Salmond has to cosy up to the Pollockshields muslims to get a massive majority of one in the kiddy on parliament we call Holyrood.

BTW
At last we seem to get an admission that the SNP are an extreme left wing party, not in the least bit 'business friendly', more 'muslim fanatic friendly'.

Osama Saeed can stand up in public and call for muslims not to cooperate with the police while Salmond refuses to restrain him as he's too busy writing letters to the cuddly regime in Iran.
14

frank mcbride,

lusitania 23/03/2008 01:43:00
Welcome home Michael. I told you, almost 20yrs ago, the the SNP was your natural home.
15

Willie Macleod,

Wick 23/03/2008 01:59:15
There is nothing old fashioned about where the Labour Party should be not back but forward with its core values of decency solidarity compassion and taking on the fight against poverty at home and abroad
16

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 02:00:15
A right wing British Labour Party cannot have a left wing Scottish branch unless that branch becomes independent.

If the unions want to back a left wing party in Scotland they should support the SNP or the Greens. They won't though because most of them aren't independent either and are run from London just like the Labour party is.

#13 "the kiddy on parliament we call Holyrood"

If you treat your own country and it's Government with contempt its no wonder you are no longer running it. Btw I am proud the SNP don't subscribe to anti Muslim xenophobia and that they understand that local Scottish muslims are not supporters of terrorism against their fellow Scots.
17

frank mcbride,

lusitania 23/03/2008 02:01:03
#13, W. Smith.

When do you get off supporting murdering scum?

Howard's gone!
Blair has run away!! Will be resident in US to avoid war crime charges
Bush is the most despised US President ever!!!
Aznar's gone too!!!! PP lost to PSOE not once, but twice.

NB The SNP achieved an historic result in 2007!
NB They will achieve an even more historic result at the next Westminster election.
18

Calum Crubag,

23/03/2008 02:08:49
Labour are in meltdown. Good riddance to them.
19

Colkitto,

River Clyde 23/03/2008 02:17:52
For some strange reason this story reminds me of the SSP/Solidarity implosion.
Labour are like a boat without rudders....drifting...drifting. Towards the water fall...
20

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 23/03/2008 04:29:37
The Labour Party will fit in quite nicely in an INDEPENDENT SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT, albeit in a minority role.Keep the red flag flying, but no longer in a modern SCOTLAND.
21

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

23/03/2008 05:35:20
Indifference is the opposirte of faith which is why Wendy Alexander is a lame duck. Make the South rich at all costs so the Oxbridge lot get their kids educated in the best private schools, get into the best universities and then the best jobs.

Keep us poor and unhealthy and keep everything tickety boo for generations to come. The idiots who vote for this and propogate the 'Union', the union of poverty above the South and wealth below it, and wish us to vote for corrupt 'socialesque' policies that decline social mobility and keep their vote by claiming social justice are now defunct.

Indiffence is the opposite of faith and thats exactly what the Labour party are and have been for over 50 years in Scotland - indifferent.

Sorry but the internet has ended your corrupt social stratagem
22

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

23/03/2008 05:40:43
So what are the Labour party now?

New Milleniue capitalists with imperial foresight through conquest and mass extermination, or socialists "protecting" the poor?

They are charlatans that have enriched themselves at the poorests expense. They don't tax the rich but legislate for 'stealth' taxes.

They can't even do the right thing by those affected by the Farepak episode but can grant private equity bosses tax free status.

They prey on the good nature of working people for their own gratification. Corrupt, Corrupt and Corrupt.

Little wonder we are so poor by comparison to others, little wonder we can't buy homes. How Labour is the fact we can't even afford to buy homes now. How Labour is is that some people own 3 or 4?

get rid of them, they are crooks
23

TerryH,

England 23/03/2008 06:47:24
"...the current devolved settlement "is helping to fuel English irritations"."

You give three out of four nations their own Parliament and the forth one is "irritated". I'm not smart enough to run a country, but even I could see that one coming. Weren't they warned?
24

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 07:31:56
#8

Is that the best you can come up with, a can of red bull and a packet of chocolate raisons?

When the labourtories first attempted to smear Alex Salmond using your resurrected script, they quickly realised that the tactic backfired on them as the money in question was from legally obtained SNP funds.

On the other hand, the labourtories with their cash for honours, dodgy dinners, illegal donors, potential misuse of taxpayers funds and general obfuscation regarding sources of funding had much more to hide than they had to gain by pursuing this tact.

So the word went out, drop this line, as it is counter productive.

I guess the “we” of your group were not judged important enough to have the latest “on-line” message conveyed to you back then.
25

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 23/03/2008 07:34:00
#13 Hang on, I justed wanted to check something. By the use of quotation marks, are you REALLY trying to imply that the Iraq war *isn't* massively unpopular?

Can you SERIOUSLY be trying to get that one to fly? Did you perhaps miss the extent to which Labour's majority was smashed to pieces by the weakest Tory opposition in the history of this country? Or did you not spout the massive outpourings of anti-war stories right across the entire spectrum of the media this week on the 5th anniversary?

Blimey, the Unionists are even more desperate than I previously imagined.
26

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 23/03/2008 07:34:30
*spot
27

Red Tower,

Dunoon 23/03/2008 08:20:52
"People are going back to their gut instincts and they are not thinking clearly. Appealing to our traditional core of voters is not enough."
So sayeth a leading Blairite.

What these people fail to understand is the "core of voters" no longer exists. The activists that trudged from door to door during elections have gone. Sadly many have not even defected to the SNP . They merely sit at home.

And why have they "turned off" because they have found New Labour to be facade for a version of Toryism.

There is no longer a burning zeal to make things better for the underpriveleged. Glasgow for all its new buildings sums up New Labour. There poverty exists in a more acute form than in any other capital city in Europe and that is after New Labour has been re-elected three times.

The hallmark of New Labour is the gulf that has grown between the rich and the poor in our society during its long term in office.

I wish the rump of the Left that still exists well, but I think they are doomed to failure.
28

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 08:26:53
Take everything W Smith says with a pinch of sodium chloride. It's a well known internet fact that there is a warrant out for his arrest after he was caught on CCTV Massturbataing a dolphin called chuckles in the Moray Firth. He's on the run for this heinous crime, somewhere in the Middle East. Tourists in Red Sea resorts have been warned to watch out for a podgy, pasty feller with an extravagant comb-over leering at passing porpoises.
29

John S,

23/03/2008 09:06:41
This is off the topic - Everyday will be a flag day in the UK
Jobcentres to fly Union Jack - Public buildings, including job centres, schools and hospitals, are to be encouraged to fly the union jack and other national flags to boost national identity.
Ministers will this week announce the lifting of restrictions on flag flying that have been in force since 1924. They will allow public buildings to erect flagpoles and fly the union jack and national flags, including the cross of St George, the Saltire of Scotland and the red dragon of Wales every day.
Individuals can fly flags outside their homes and officials have argued that national pride is being eroded because flags are not flown frequently on public buildings.
The government is also expected to scrap rules which state that the union jack must take precedence over all national flags. At the moment the flag of St George must not be flown in a superior position to a union jack and may be flown only on government buildings with two flagpoles.
Sunday Times - March 23, 2008
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3602772.ece
30

,

23/03/2008 09:14:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
31

McMillar,

Fife 23/03/2008 09:17:31
It’s clearly their turn for a spell in the wilderness years…..how long it last is up to the clear direction and leadership set asap. Hmmmm, may be some time then! No real surprise as they were shocking in power and have nose dived even further since the election. Credit to the conservatives and it’s amazing to think that we now generally regard them as ‘ok’. Lib Dems may do better once Nicol goes as he has just made them a laughing stock recently, but there is potential…I think.
32

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 09:21:13
The average Labour MP is a multi millionaire, through the Brown Envelopes they get from developers. The sad thing is that these developers could have traded quite legally if Scotland was an independant business/employment pro Country. Just imagine how many jobs were lost because some builder or investor wouldnt cough up.

All this crap about the banks is just that. Yes there will be a breather in abundant any terms finance, but then again that is a good thing. Its time for consolidation and sure some will suffer short term pain. Lower Corporate taxes and friendly planning laws will still bring in some very good solid investment. The Scottish Government must target London Companies to relocate up here in Scotland by out bidding the current costs that London is offering. The communication system of the finance sector is all we need to upgrade by way of speeding up our broadband system.
33

FTH22inarow,

23/03/2008 09:21:37
tories / new labour are both the same thing couldnae fit a fag paper between them
34

Stepford Nat,

23/03/2008 09:26:38
Soon SNP will be the only party in Scotland, because the others are full of unionists and are rubbish and Alex is brilliant
www.snp.org
35

Nina Cairns,

Bucks 23/03/2008 09:28:40
Filthy Labour and Unionist drones.
36

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 23/03/2008 09:50:54
i have warned before about this situation. labour is finished as a significant political force in Scotland, as are the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, because they are not facing up to the realities of the altered situation. There remains a need for a Scottish national centre-right party to balance the SNP, which is obviously going to fill the gap left by departing Labour. I have nothing against the SNP, and the present government has my entire support, but a one-party state is not a healthy situation. I hope that the embryo Scottish Enterprise Party will eventually develop into Scotland's national centre-right party, but there is a long way to go yet.

37

Fenland Farmer,

Cromwell's England 23/03/2008 10:11:53
# 8 & 25

If Nicola wishes to spend money on a hair do that's fine! Great lady who actually talks sense when I have been allowed to watch her on the Beeb.

Terry.."You give three out of four nations their own Parliament and the forth one is irritated".

Tish Tish...you will have the New Labour thought Police after you once they have finished chasing Basil Brush concerning his remarks about a minority group!

The New Labour Scot's know best! The English may not have a Parliament. Don't ask again otherwise Des Brown will send you a nasty memo!

38

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

23/03/2008 10:13:11
Bye bye Labour bye bye.

Thats what happens when you try and get votes from the working class but tax them into poverty and ill health while giving the rich the better deal..

All you ever gave Scotland was lies, deceit, poverty, nihalism and bigotry - now f**k off
39

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

23/03/2008 10:14:08
There are a number of lottery scams going around at the moment - it may be a rumour but it is claimed they have come from Wendy Alexanders office.

Please say this is not true?
40

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

From Wendy's office apparently 23/03/2008 10:16:07
URGENT ATTENTION.

I am contacting you in regards to a business transfer of a hugh sum of money
from a deceased account. Though I know that a transaction of this magnitude
will make any one apprehensive and worried, but I am assuring you that all
will be well at the end of the day. We decided to contact
you due to the urgency of this transaction.

PROPOSITION;

We discovered an abandoned sum of US$11,500,000.00 (Eleven Million, Five
Hundred Thousand United States Dollars) in an account that belongs to one of
our foreign customers who died along with his entire family. Since his death,
none of his next-of-kin or relations has come forward to lay claims to this
money as the heir. We cannot release the fund from his account unless someone
applies for claim as the next-of-kin to the deceased as indicated in our
banking guidelines. Upon this discovery, we now seek your permission to have
you stand as a next of kin to the deceased as all documentations will be
carefully worked out by us for the funds to be released in
your favour as the beneficiary's next of kin.

It may interest you to note that we have secured from the probate an order of
madamus to locate any of deceased beneficiaries.Please acknowledge receipt
ofthis message in acceptance of our mutual business endeavour by furnishing me
with the following;

1. Beneficiary name and address.
2. Direct Telephone and fax numbers.

These requirements will enable us file a letter of claim to the appropriate
departments for necessary approvals in your favour before the transfer can be
made. We shall be compensating you with US$4,000,000.00 (Four Million united
states Dollars) on final conclusion of this project, while the rest shall be
for us. Your share stays with you while the rest shall be for us for
investment purposes.

If you find yourself able to work with me, contact me only through my
confidential email address: and the private phone number I shall provide in
reciept of your r
41

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

23/03/2008 10:17:57
Jekyll and Hyde - thats what you are.

I don't even read the articles anymore because you know they will be innacurate to some degree compared to the Times and Telegraph

I just like despising Labour
42

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 23/03/2008 10:27:30
Once again Wendy appears to be talking nonsense. To say that "beefing up" the powers of Holyrood would somehow reduce English resentment seems counter-intuitive, to say the least. Full independence, on the other hand, would probably have the desired effect.
43

King Billy.,

SNP Govan 23/03/2008 10:44:12
#46
#47
#48
#49...Come with the king and join the SNP, how is life after Stormont?.
44

Jimmy the Pie,

23/03/2008 10:50:51
I'm enjoying watching the death throws of the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party. They deserve everything that is about to befall them. They have treated the electorate with derision and contempt for years. Payback time is fast approaching.

Can't wait.

www.snp.org
45

james 1st,

hamilton 23/03/2008 11:05:07
scottish taxpayers presumably already pay into whitehall towards the 30 billion received ?
should holyrood be able to raise local taxes the 30 billion will be cut i would suppose
wouls those same scottish taxpayers receive a credit from whitehall equivelant to the cut in the monies paid back to scotland?
46

james 1st,

hamilton 23/03/2008 11:07:24
whilst i would not claim to be a blairite should the labour party lurch to the left they may well win back holyrood,but they would certainly lose westminster.the english like the centre left and centre right and mainlt have little time for socialism
47

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 11:54:18
#54
The labour pary may well win back Hoyrood??

Aye right!

SNP WESTMINSTER SUPPORT DOUBLES - MRUK/SUNDAY TIMES POLL

MORE SNP MPs COULD HOLD BALANCE OF POWER

Welcoming the MRUK Cello/Sunday Times poll today, which shows a virtual doubling of Scottish National Party support for a Westminster General Election to tie with Labour at 34%, SNP Westminster leader Mr Angus Robertson MP said:

"This latest poll evidence is fantastic news - showing a doubling of SNP support, and coming on top of the evidence of real votes in council by-elections, and last weekend's sensational Holyrood poll.

"Compared to the 2005 general election, it shows a 16% increase for the SNP and a -5% decrease for Labour - wiping out Labour's lead even for a Westminster election.

"The SNP are on course to significantly increase our number of MPs at the next election - we would win 15 seats on the basis of this poll, for example.

"With the possibility of a hung parliament at the next election, it could well be the SNP who hold the balance of power. In these circumstances, all of the issues where Westminster is currently saying No to the Scottish Government would very quickly change to Yes!

"The Westminster poll comes on the back of the Holyrood poll last weekend, putting Alex Salmond 75 points ahead of Wendy Alexander, and the SNP surging to a 10 point lead in Scottish Parliament polls, as the Scottish Government removes prescription charges, delivers a Council Tax freeze, reintroduces free university education, and cuts small business rates."


Note: MRUK Cello interviewed 1.028 adults across Scotland between February 29 and March 9. The results are:

SNP: 34% (+16)
Labour: 34% (-5)
Con: 18% (+2)
Lib Dem: 9% (-14)
Other: 4% (-1)

Projected Westminster seats:

SNP: 15 (+9)
Lab: 34 (-6)
Lib Dem: 5 (-6)
Con: 4 (+3)
48

Lennox11,

Coatbridge 23/03/2008 12:08:36
the first thing labour have to do is find a credible leader, every time Wendy Alexander is on T.V. the first thing I reach for is the remote, and in converstaion with many of my colleagues thir responce is the same.
49

Publius,

London 23/03/2008 12:28:42
#57 Labour's problems are very deep seated - the loss of control of many councils and with it the loss of patronage, a disappearing membership. It'll probably take two or three parliaments for Labour to recover, just as it took the Tories 10 years to recover from 1997. The chances are that the next labour First Minister isn't even in the Scottish Parliament. There will be a Scottish Labour David Cameron somewhere but he isn't visible yet.
In the meantime the SNP will almost certainly win the next Holyrood elections with - I would guess - 40 to 42 per cent of the vote. SNP in Holyrood but without an overall majority facing Cameron's Tories at Westminster. It won't leave lasnour much room for manouvre.
50

shivago8,

livingston 23/03/2008 12:30:10
Bliar Broon McConnell[him wi the pin stripes in his kilt]Bendy Wendy[excused a court case] have turned Britain into a banana republic now thet are making us a banana split.
They are the laughing stock of the universe.
51

jdships,

23/03/2008 12:55:21
33 The Spook in Leith,Leith

Agree with what you say.
The problems I have are
1.
Where do SNP really stand in the political spectrum - left, centre or right ?
2
If/when independance comes will there be a need for an SN Party?

On the evidence I see , when the SNP may have disbanded , the majority of SNP hierachy will then up and join the Labour Party.
At the first election under independance we will return a Labour administration.
This will bring us full circle !
Ah michty me !
What a thought !!!
52

Thistledhu,

Fife 23/03/2008 13:09:25
Where are the likes of AM2 etc posts on this subject or does it make far to uncomfortable reading?
53

pehman,

23/03/2008 13:39:40
from the article;-

SCOTTISH Labour is facing a major split amid fresh demands that it swing to the left in order to prevent future electoral disaster.
A coordinated campaign will be staged at this week's party conference in Aviemore, with left-wingers demanding that Gordon Brown and Scottish party leader Wendy Alexander ditch the Blairite policies of New Labour and return to old-fashioned Socialism.

I'm looking forward to hearing wendy explain just how pro-Scottish she is while at the same time backing more powers for Holyrood and obversely still backing w/minster over the snatching of £400,000,000 from Scotlands budget.

Pro Scots or pro w/minster wendy make your mind up you nor anyone can do both
54

karinxx,

23/03/2008 13:39:51
61 jsd ships the snp are a left of centre party. They declare that quite clearly on their website. Thats who they are.

www.snp.org

"The SNP is a democratic left-of-centre political party committed to Scottish Independence. It aims to create a just, caring and enterprising society by releasing Scotland's full potential as an independent nation in the mainstream of modern Europe."
55

karinxx,

23/03/2008 13:42:38
63 the only thing wendy is is pro gordon brown and london labour wendy wants to see powers returned to westminster and slags off the lib dems for not agreeing to this.
56

scottish person,

paisley 23/03/2008 14:08:01
And in a pamphlet to be published this week, she declares: "We in the Labour party have been fortunate to live in a time when politics in the English-speaking world has been dominated by three of the most gifted politicians of the centre-left – Bill Clinton, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown".

Is Wee bendy on drugs. One is an adulterer one a war criminal the other is nothing at all.
57

Lastsocialist,

Europe 23/03/2008 14:14:14
'A beefed-up Parliament at Holyrood would help to dampen growing English resentment against Scotland, Wendy Alexander will declare this week.'

It's great to see that the Labour Party has come round to the SNP's way of thinking. Hopefully the breakaway Socialist movement will destroy Labour in Scotland and accelerate the moves towards an inevitable independence.
58

John S,

23/03/2008 14:25:24
#66 - I always thought the other as a chancer ?
59

pehman,

sussex 23/03/2008 14:25:39
67 Lastsocialist,;- you write

Hopefully the breakaway Socialist movement will destroy Labour in Scotland and accelerate the moves towards an inevitable independence.

Don't hold your breath,----------- They couldn't get 6 people to vote against her in her "election campaign"

60

Thistledhu,

Fife 23/03/2008 14:26:03
#66 please dont slag bill clinton he found the best use of a cigar in a long while!!!!!
61

Anthony,

Glasgow 23/03/2008 14:28:50
Putting ideological preferences to one side, it is probably true, if Scottish Labour moved to the left they would very likely do better electorally. It could be used to embarrass the party south of the border though.
62

subrosa,

23/03/2008 14:43:26
# 57

Now now leave Wendy where she is. She's superb at what she does ie ensuring labour will never be in power for years.
63

John B Dick,

23/03/2008 14:57:25
If the former coalition had differentiated themselves from the London leadership on a handful of key issues the SNP would not now be in government.

The Scottish Labour, Conservative and LibDem parties need to be independent from the r-UK parties on the Bavarian model. If they had been for the last 20 years we wouldn't now be headed for independence for Scotland, but, like it or not, it's too late now.

These things have a momentum and it's unstoppable now.

I don't want independence, except to get a parliament without the failures of the Westminster system, but I've ceased caring because I'm sure it's going to happen anyway so I might as well accept that it will and get used to the idea.

If I am right, then the SNP should take no credit for their success: it's Tony Blair's "legacy". John Curtice credits Mrs Thatcher with persuading the Scots of the merits of devolution. Tony Blair's enduring "legacy" will be to put his party out of office at Westminster for the rest of his lifetime, the end of the UK, and possibly the withdrawal of r-UK from the EU.

What a failure! Only the DDR communists have equalled that acheivement.
64

HEN BROON 5,

23/03/2008 18:10:14
"More power for Holyrood 'would help stop English anger"

Eddie Barnes who gives a flying shyte about any English anger, bring it on.
65

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 18:37:36
Are these the same w*nkers who keep going on about "Tartan Tories" by any chance???
66

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 18:44:46
"A beefed-up Parliament at Holyrood would help to dampen growing English resentment against Scotland, Wendy Alexander will declare this week."

"Scottish Labour" seems to be more concerned with the feelings of the people South of the border than the people North or the border so much so that their Leader is willing to change their ideals and policies to keep them happy.
They now wish to support the move for further powers to the Scottish parliament because they are more concerned about English opinion than Scottish.
Proof positive if any were needed as to the credentials of the so called "Scottish Labour" party.
67

Charles1234,

23/03/2008 18:49:00
Who are these people who still think there's a future for the left in the Labour party?

Last week your MSPs voted with the Tories to restrict new council house building by keeping right to buy restrictions.

They've been defending the Tories Council tax and the high tax it puts on lower earners.

They've even criticised universally free prescriptions. Aneurin Bevin will be birling in his grave at that one.

And we haven't even got to the Iraq war, billions on Trident, PFI and other policies they get the backing of the Tories on.

The Labour party is just a vehicle not some holy body to be protected at all costs. Experience shows it's just become another British party with imperial pretensions.

If you are serious about seeing left-wing policies stop wasting your energies on trying to win over the Labour party. It always ends in failure and the return of the Tories.

Get out. Form your own party just like the original founders did when they jettisoned the Liberals for taking them for a ride. They formed the Scottish Labour Party.

Do that or do what the first ever Labour MP in the House of Commons did - that's R B Cunninghame-Graham. Join the SNP.

You're wasting your time on the UK Labour party. It's just a career route for ambitious charlatans who talk a good left-wing game and then invite Margaret Thatcher around for tea.

Time to ditch the old vehicle and get a new one if you seriously want left wing change. It's about people's lives and livelihoods, not supporting a political party like a football team.
68

Richard,

west lothian 23/03/2008 18:54:44
Charles1234,

Good post.
69

subrosa,

23/03/2008 19:18:33
# 81

Bang on the button there. Every statement labour in Scotland makes has Westminster connections. They're not interested in Scotland in the least, they're interested in power not people.
70

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 23/03/2008 19:19:27
Great post Charles 1234.You are pot on.I am sure that many in the Labour party have tried to drag them back to the left.They failed and did join the SNP.That is probably why the SNP now hold consituences such as Kilmarnock and Cunninghamme North.

Of course there will be some trying to change direction but they will fail.The problem for Labour will be that they may be seen as being divided
71

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 19:33:51
13

Smith yer a credit to all things Zionist and dont let anybody tell ye different.
72

Charles1234,

23/03/2008 20:34:15
And considering the Tories attack on the SNP today:

======================

http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5ihi0qBT0B-wapBKRXhGOJnEbYU0w

Tories attack 'left-wing agenda'
12 hours ago

Tory leader Annabel Goldie has launched an attack on the SNP government, claiming the Nationalists "left-wing agenda" was beginning to emerge.

Miss Goldie hit out at the SNP administration, accusing ministers of "living in the past" when it came to public services.

She claimed: "The SNP's left-wing agenda for Scotland's public services is starting to emerge.

======================

It further begs the question of why those in the left are bothering with the Labour party these days since it now votes with the Tories:

Labour and Tories vote together
The Herald - 20 Mar 2008
http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.2137871.0.Labour_and_Tories_vote_together.php
73

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 20:35:00
#82

It is good to read the thoughts of a kindred spirit.

As long as 100 of us remain alive……………………………..


I have no doubt that you are aware of the rest of the quotation.

74

Haram Kabir,

England 23/03/2008 20:52:42
Wendy declares: "We in the Labour party have been fortunate to live in a time when politics in the English-speaking world has been dominated by three of the most gifted politicians of the centre-left – Bill Clinton, Tony Blair AND GORDON BROWN". (My capitals)

Since when was Brown gifted with anything other than to be a bloody peculiar, false-statistics obsessed , plainly weird and endlessly odd with a suspiciously out of place smile and irritating both to the English and Scots , oddball .

I suppose Wendy has to do something to repay him for his behind the scenes interfering with the Electoral Commission to get her off the charges .
These charges can always be reopened .

England can't wait to send him back to Scotland amd in the meantime looks forward with happy anticipation to May 3rd.


75

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 20:57:40
All these crypto-nationalists in the Unionist parties, who are now creeping out of the Scottish body politic, should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves!

We now have the spectacle of the indigenous Tories appeasing the Nationalists in a desperate attempt to appeal to Scots floating voters, whilst the Labour Party in Scotland still appears more conservative than the Conservatives, instead of representing its core voters: the working class! As for the Lib-Dems: they still haven't got over the shock of losing their place in coalition government with Labour at Holyrood, and
now don't know which way to turn?

Its time ALL the collective Unionist MAJORITY got its finger out and started showing some real opposition?
The SNP is a MINORITY administration and these Unionist
incompetents would have you believe that the Nationalists, who have only been in power for a short 10 MONTHS, were some kind of provisional government in waiting?

Its time the Scots Unionists got real before it's too late!
76

Eve,

Scotland 23/03/2008 21:00:48
"Alexander, right,..." Am I the only one who is looking for this picture in the right!!! "... will address the Scottish Labour Party conference in Aviemore this Saturday. In her pamphlet, she says: "I intend that we should be the party of change. We must be bold, united and Labour."

Waho that paragraph is a wee bit confusing:

I get pictures in my heed of Labour party conference being held in a pamphlet in Aviemore.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

These Lefties are obviously being ignored by the party they thought would listen to them. I'd have more respect for those mentioned in the article if whey left the Labour party and stood up for what they believe in. I'm sure they would be a group of individuals who would be capable of getting their points across.
77

Charles1234,

23/03/2008 21:14:22
"These Lefties are obviously being ignored by the party they thought would listen to them. I'd have more respect for those mentioned in the article if whey left the Labour party and stood up for what they believe in."

And the rise and fall of the SSP/Sheridarity showed that there is an electorate out there that it appeals to.

If they were established by a group of MSPs/Councillors they could make a serious run as a left alternative - and one that had longevity rather than the kintergarten that the SSP was.

But will they have the boldness that those who abandoned the Liberals like Keir Hardie or R B Cunninghame Graham did?
78

morris,

edinburgh 23/03/2008 21:14:39
The New Labour Party is in a terminal position because there is a North South didvide.
In order to ever regain power at Westminster they must stay on the right of centre,since they will lose the next election. Thats already gone.
Then the real fun begins because the left wing in Scotland will claim that a swing back to the left must happen for Labour to regain power.

If it cannot avoid losing seats to the REAL TORY party,as a right wing party,how can it possibly ever achieve power again as a left of centre party.
The party is over !
New Labour need to be two different parties in two different countries and that can only mean the UK is finished.It's not possible to do what Labour's left wing are pursuing.ENGLAND does not want you,you cupid stunts!
Vote SNP.Break the United Kingdom and then we can get back to engaging our brain in governing our country.
79

Lady Muck,

23/03/2008 21:47:51
Many left wing socialist have gone to the SNP but they will not be able to stay there. with people like Jim Mather running things and with Brian soutar's influence it will come to a head before too long. then we may see a genuine Scottish Labour Party being formed.
80

jdships,

23/03/2008 22:54:36
71
If in an Independent Scotland we elect a labour government well at least it would be more sympathetic to Scotland than the current bunch of guff under the frog lady.

The " proof of the pudding etc " will be in the eating.
I would hope that the remnants of the present New Labour , in whatever part of Britain,will have been placed in the political dustbin.
SNP - Centre Left?
Not so sure about that one - could be Left of Centre very shortly methinks

81

subrosa,

23/03/2008 23:08:54
# 77 Wardog

Thanks for that. Didn't exactly inspire me. Promises not kept over the past 8 years given a new twist I see.
82

Arrow,

edinburgh 23/03/2008 23:16:53
who exactly are the working class? sure as hell it ain't the labour party msp/mp bunch. most of them have not had a job unless you ocunt being a union organiser or college lecturer a real job. perhaps they should try employing people (not relatives paid for by the public purse)and paying their wages, their NI, AT etc. and see what it is like to run a business. but then that would be exploitation and who better to know about exploiting the public like the Labour Party
83

Lesley McDade,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 21:41:16
New Labour "spin" too much.

"Access to Justice when the objective of the reforms is cost and proportionality, ie avoidance of justice.

Whilst it is not necessary to have a justice system in society it is necessary to have "Justice" if we want to exist in a democracy. Access to Justice should not mean Access FROM Justice by Access to Mediation or rather Access to Compromise. E&W reforms to the legal system effectively wrecked the English judiciary, and no matter how much I try, the Scots appear hell bent on doing the same to their system as well as Europe with the exception of Denmark who have abstained from the Directive on Mediation. Spin it is, contemptible is the conduct I have experienced.

However, I am up to page 50 of Lord Gill's Consultation paper - on the issue of "proportionality" it appears to be superceded by Article 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998, ie everyone including vexatious and frivolous litigants / litigants in person have the right to a fair trial. There is some reference to a need to change the Act of Sederunt and Sheriff's needing statutory authority to do so - well Article 6 of the HRA 1998 probably means you have no authority whatsoever - illuminatory, common sense what it is not is the nonsense that have been delivered in recent times from those who should no better. I anticipate putting in a response to the reform paper by Lord Gill hopefully this week - but you all may want to take a wee look : I was upset with chapter 1, largely insulted thereafter, however, chapter 4 does provide for some scope / hope of improvement - but then the Scottish judiciary would need to be "genuinely" accepting of their role as guardian of democratic society - I think for some time now they lost their way as did Blair, but then I am not so sure the intellect was there at all concerning Blair even when it was handed to him on a plate.

Regards.

Lesley
84

donald,

glasgow 30/03/2008 07:51:42
Labour "left"?

You're 'arving a larf.
85

donald,

glasgow 30/03/2008 07:53:14
This happened over a hundred years ago, when the left wing Scottish Labour Party was ovetaken by the British Imperial Labour Party.

 

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