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Kirk's magazine criticises Bible's stance against gays

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Published Date: 18 April 2009
CHRISTIANS who use the Bible to argue against homosexuality have been criticised in the Church of Scotland's official magazine.
An editorial in the new edition of Life and Work says even those with a traditionalist view of scripture do not take everything in the Bible literally.

It says: "Every student of the Bible is a selective literalist. Those who swear by the anti-homosexual laws in the Book of Leviticus wouldn't publicly advocate slavery or stoning women taken in adultery. They presumably no longer accept Biblical teaching on sexual matters such as polygamy and sex with slaves. And yet there are many who continue to be bound by a few Biblical verses – none of them in the Gospels – about homosexuality, nowadays understood as a matter of genetics rather than lifestyle."

Homosexuality will be a hot topic at the Church of Scotland's General Assembly in Edinburgh next month when it is asked to rule on the case of an openly gay minister, the Rev Scott Rennie, whose appointment was backed by his congregation and presbytery but then challenged by opponents.

The magazine urges the critics to "agree to differ".





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  • Last Updated: 18 April 2009 10:55 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Observer,,

Glasgow 18/04/2009 11:16:45
''Every student of the Bible is a selective literalist.''

Absolutely. You can find verses in the Bible to justify anything you like. People who quote Leviticus to justify homophobia do so because they want to be homophobic, not because the Bible tells them to.
2

Observer,,

Glasgow 18/04/2009 11:18:25
Well done the editor of Life and work.
3

Horrible Cankers @Cyber Shebeen,

18/04/2009 12:05:30
1...Agreed...and the outdated holy books should be binned...or severely edited at the very least...they are not consistant with the 21st century...
4

IainGlasgow,

18/04/2009 13:07:11
Assuming for the sake of debate that God does exist. The Bible was written by men on the basis of their interpretation of (or what they think) what God's wishes were/are.

There is of course a paradox here. If god invented the human race (and other animals - homosexuality is not just a human trait btw) then by definition surely God invented homosexuality as well. Surely to define it as a flaw is to imply that there is a flaw in God's design.

Of course then there is the portrayal by many Judeo-christian religions of a judgmental, dysfunctional God that needs to be appeased all the time. I don't really see how that fits with the concept of an omnipontent, omnipresent being that is the root cause of the entire universe. Rather to me ot seems to be more of a projection of human societal hierarchy in order to create a vehicle for social engineering and control.

I could go on all day about aspects of religion that do not stand up to the merest objective scrutiny but I won't.
5

,

18/04/2009 13:48:08
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6

Glenda,

blah 18/04/2009 14:55:14
#4

Well said.

Those who quote the bible continually skew all the fairytales within it to suit their own causes.

Religion is the major cause of the world's problems.
7

Ellen Campbell,

18/04/2009 16:38:23
Anyone admitting to being a "Christian" nowadays should be treated with the same social stigma meted out to National Front activists and members of other hate groups. It is little more today than a front organisation for hateful people to hide their hate-driven bile behind.

I'm a mum of a gay teenager, which has been perfectly obvious since he was about two. Homosexuality exists throughout the world, throughout history, and throughout the animal kingdom. There is no sense in which anyone sane could call it 'unnatural' except by wilfully ignoring all the facts... which is something Christians are of course perfectly used to doing, just as they deny the accumulated evidence of archaeology, geology, astronomy, and any other science (i.e. simple factual observation) that doesn't fit their ludicrous fantasy world.

There should be no tolerance of gay bashers, just as there should be zero tolerance of any other efforts to bully and intimidate other minorities. We need to live and let live. And Christians have no right to oppress others or try to impose their ridiculous ideas on everyone else who doesn't share their nasty ideology.

By the way, I put "Christian" in inverted commas, because the real Jesus Christ would be appalled at the way his real message has been perverted by the evil people running the churches nowadays as centres of hatred. Not once in all the gospels (and I include those written by women which have been conveniently ignored by the women-hating men running these awful organisations)... not once did he utter a word against homosexuality himself. He was a social and political activist fighting repression, mosty by the Roman occupiers of his day. All the anti-gay and anti-Muslim and anit-women and anti-sexuality and anti-fun intolerance has been made up by the horrible bullies running religion to exploit the gullible since. So don't blame him. Blame the hate-spreaders who abuse his name and destroy his real message.

Zero tolerance of evil socia
8

IainGlasgow,

18/04/2009 17:15:29
#7

An excellent post. Just consider all that has been done in centuries past, persecution of heretics, burning of witches, et al by the Catholic Church, allegedly in God's name and there is probably not an institution in the whole world that is less aligned with the way Jesus lived his life (as recorded in Roman literature as well as the Bible).

I would say one of the people in the 'modern' world most closely comparable to Jesus in terms of their actions is the Dali Lama - infinitely more so than the Pope (who btw openly promotes this kind of intolerance and hatred) or any other church leader and certainly Buddhism is more aligned with it than mainstream Christianity.

There are alot of parallels with the way Jesus responded to the Roman occupation of Palestine and the Dali Lama's response to the Chinese occupation of Tibet.
9

oiler,

18/04/2009 18:16:44
strewth!!
I cannot believe that folk who claim to be intelligent can still fall for all this God mumbo jumbo voodoo rubbish. Get real .
Why are they happy to have their lives ruled by these control freaks .
10

Horrible Cankers @Cyber Shebeen,

18/04/2009 18:38:26
7...Well said Ellen!
11

,

18/04/2009 19:23:48
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12

is it me?,

Edinburgh 18/04/2009 19:54:28
So we're all agreed then.
Having sex with slaves is not necessarily a bad thing.
13

is it me?,

Edinburgh 18/04/2009 20:30:28
...if none of you anti-Bible-basher-bashers gives me a cogent reply in the next 10 minutes the poor sod's in for it tonight again.
14

is it me?,

Edinburgh 18/04/2009 20:43:04
Time's up.
As I thought. Not an an original thought among the lot of you.

15

is it me?,

Edinburgh 18/04/2009 20:44:56
...sorry Sinbad, it's the hairy side outside tonight.
16

Observer,,

Glasgow 18/04/2009 21:12:05
11 If you are a libertarian then I am the Queen of England. Homosexuality is not a perversion. Just deal with it.
17

Observer,,

Glasgow 18/04/2009 21:13:15
12 Having sex with slaves is always a bad thing unless the slave fancies you.

Much better to abolish slavery.
18

is it me?,

Edinburgh 18/04/2009 21:27:50
17
What if the slave fancies slavery? A lot of slaves do you know. Look around you.
19

Observer,,

Glasgow 18/04/2009 21:53:39
And wage slavery relates to homosexuality how ?
20

is it me?,

Edinburgh 18/04/2009 21:59:09
Wage slavery is an oxymoron. And who mentioned homosexuality?
What are you gibbering on about?
21

is it me?,

Edinburgh 18/04/2009 22:02:18
21
..I never said what sex I am, or my slave for that matter.
Sometimes I call her/him Sinbad for a laff.
22

Observer,,

Glasgow 18/04/2009 22:41:08
Wage slavery is not an oxymoron. Look it up.
23

T M,

LA, USA 18/04/2009 23:53:15
You know before looking which stories the Scotsman will allow comments on, and which they won't. Of course no comments allowed on the story about the ridiculously short jail sentence for a killer who murdered a man in front of his family???!!!
24

Christian Observer,

India 19/04/2009 06:53:22
It is pathetic and highly discrimnatory the manner in which the Christian Faith and the Bible is being subject to abuse. Well, it is pathetic for those who indulge in this, since their own lives and values do not have any consistency, any decency and any restraint. For evey taunt and every malafide act, there is accountability from which no one can escape, whether spoken or written advertently or inadvertently.

The Holy Bible unequivocally condemns racism, gender discrimnation and all forms of gender peversity that goes against the eugenic standards of human living. I am appalled to see how the Church of Scotland could promote such views.
Sexual immorality and indulgence paved way for social civic chaos and the destruction of Grecian and Roman civilizations, the west seem to follow this path of self-destruction and pathos.
There is an audit that all humanity has to account to Creator God who had endowed us with many gifts and talents. To take the name of the Holy God in vain is the worst abomination; and to abuse one's gender into an unnatural lust and instinct is even more grevious offense

25

Quietone,

Florida 19/04/2009 09:27:19
1.) Homosexuallity is condemed in the Gospels also. It is condemed throughout the Bible. It is not Genetics ( you are not born Homosexual) it is a Sin. Genetics and all the other excuses are used to Try and Justify the Sin, because no one wants to be responsible for their actions.
2.) Common Sense tells you that Homosexuallity is not Natural. If it was then The Human Race would have Died out Long ago.
3.) Yes People have used Religion to Do bad Things, but They did not follow the Commandments That Jesus gave: 1) Love One another as I have Loved You (Brotherly Love Not Homosexual).
2.) Love Your Neighbor as Yourself.
Love The Sinner, but Hate The Sin.
GOD is Real we will all face Him One Day. I pray that some people will Change their Hearts before it's To Late.
GOD is LOVE
26

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19/04/2009 10:00:50
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27

Duncan in Edinburgh,

19/04/2009 10:46:30
#24 "The Holy Bible unequivocally condemns racism". Erm, no it doesn't! In fact it unequivocally *condones* racism. And slavery.

Leviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life."
28

Duncan in Edinburgh,

19/04/2009 10:47:47
#26 You're either being malicious or stupid, I suspect both. There is no correlation between gay sexual orientation and paedophilia. That's a damned lie.
29

Hardtack,

USA 19/04/2009 14:06:11
I would suggest that the instead of selecting portions of Scripture to be removed, just get rid of the entire Bible. That way, no one is offended by portions that they don't like or disagree with. Instead, you can use a book, of your choosing, to fit what you think the Bible should say (either that, or write one yourself).

In so doing, everyone is happy, everyone can feel good about themselves, and no one feels offended. Of course, having done that, you can then think up excuses to give God when you appear before Him.
30

Unimpressed 1,

Massachusetts 19/04/2009 14:07:57
A veritable parade of spiritual scholars, led by the now heretical "Church" of Scotland. Seldom have so many known so little while pretending to know so much about the Bible.
31

T Stewart,

USA 19/04/2009 14:18:38
to #7 and others who believe that Jesus the Christ did not speak against homosexuality. Matthew 19:4-6 says, And He answered and said to them, Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning "made them male and female", and said, For this cause a man shall leave father and mother and shall cling to his wife, and the two of them shall be one flesh? Therefore they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.
And in Mark 7:20-23,Mar 7:20 And He said, That which comes out of the man is what defiles the man.
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things pass out from inside and defile the man. "Gay" marriage is not something Jesus would tolerate, nor any of the other sins that go with the homosexual lifestyle. And I'm not even beginning to say that homosexual relations are the only or worst sin. But only that we have all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.
32

Thus Saith the Lord,

Pennsylvania, USA 19/04/2009 15:20:03
Well said that Matthew brings out what is to be a proper relationship making all others improper, but the people that are demanding the gospel only reference are in fact the ones choosing what and what not to believe. Indirectly, they just declared the rest of the Bible null and void. The Bible is not man's interpretation of God's will. They were impressed by the Holy Spirit to write the actual will of God in their own words. And Paul (New Testament stuff) also tells that God will hand over such people he condemns back in the Old Testament references to what they want - lust after the same gender. Read the end of Romans chapter 1. That is not God permitting but God giving up on them. And yes, God does give up on people when they have reached a point of no return to Him. That is why so many groups of people were destroyed in the OT. That is why there were two quick deaths in the NT. And how dare we as humans pit something we do not understand against the explicit. Using sex with slaves and stoning or the lack there of as justification to do away with other things. Could it be that the Western world forbids stoning for such acts? And otherwise we would continue the practice? Up until the 1600's and 1700's, there was the scarlet A. Just a thought. If we do not believe the Bible to be God's will for everyone, I would be very scared to trust in my own will. We are all subject to something. Some are subject to the government. Some are subject to friends (peer preasure). Some are subject to spouses. To be subject to ourselves is destructive.
33

agaguy,

Houston, TX 19/04/2009 18:49:16
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. - NIV Romans 1: 24,25
34

jcfatl,

Johns Creek, GA USA 19/04/2009 19:01:38
Look at your calender. What year is it? From what original date?

The Bible is over 3000 years old and never had a valid challenge that it is false. Every Court in every country recognizes it as a valid historical document.

It seems strange you challenge all or part that says homosexuals are not the norm. Where will the children come from, eggs?

Oh yes, and what was the beginning year from on the calendar the entire World uses for the commerce of every tongue and every nation?
35

George T Horvat,

Channing, Michigan USA 19/04/2009 19:21:08
Ahhh...Yes, now I know why all of you Laddies in Scotland wear skirts! I think you really need to stop finding ways to justify your xxxxxxxxxxx and just be honest. We are all sinners; from the best of us to the worst of us! What you people seem to be avoiding is the biblical fact that God The Creator has an enemy who spends all of his time trying to subvert and xxxxxxx all of creation. If you are wise you would be best to admit your transgressions rather than trying to justify and rationalize them. Remember, it matters little that you struggle with your sin. Even to the day you die, as we all do. Instead be thankful that a repentant heart will always warrant mercy but a hardened heart is in deadly peril. When Paul complained about his struggle with sin Jesus spoke the most powerful edict ever spoken. He said..."MY GRACE SHALL BE SUFFICIENT!" So hike up your skirts Laddies and stop taking words out of God's mouth. Keep it up and you will indeed pay the price!!!
GT Horvat USA
P.S. Homosexuality is biologically incorrect also!!
36

IainGlasgow,

19/04/2009 19:30:18
Some people are so gullible they'll believe anything.
37

Mattisyahu,

Dallas, Texas 20/04/2009 03:12:29
The fact is, if the Lord has not called you, you cannot become a Believer. It actually is not your choice, but His, and is it not ironic that 2000 years later His name either brings out feelings of love and joy, or incites others to venomous, hateful rebellion against Him.

Scripture is profoundly historically accurate with regard to prophesied future events which is daily being proven truthful by archeological finds and a simple comparison to the Bible and written history and anyone who will be intellectually honest and actually do their homework will discover the truth. Jesus Christ was an historical man that was born and lived, teaching and making disciples, and performing miracles, who died on a cross and rose three days later, appearing to over 500 people in the 40 days leading up to His ascent into heaven - all of which both His followers and enemies attest to in even more extra-biblical, contemporaneous literature than is found in Scripture alone. The Bible is the most accurate, authentic book of historical detail and truthful representation on earth and is God breathed.

This means you have a choice...either He was God or He wasn't. He couldn't have been a "good teacher" or "great spiritual leader" and preach Himself Deity, so this actually is a non-choice, therefore, you are left with God...or narcissistic egomaniac with a God complex. I choose to call Him Lord and Savior.

With regard to homosexuality, it is simply a sinful lust, identical to my adulterous, lustful glances at a woman other than my wife (that still haunt me as a Christian and believer in Christ), a man who sees an animal as a legitimate sex partner, a person who looks with longing at the underage child or a combination of all of this. It is lust plain and simple, no matter the perversion. This is sin and we are all guilty of at least one of the previous afflictions. We are fallen humanity and can’t live righteously - which is the whole reason we need Jesus Christ. Homosexuality is
38

Mattisyahu,

20/04/2009 03:29:09
....not the disease, it’s a symptom and every single human being is sick with it…LUST! While there are many, many branches, it is truly lust that is the root that feeds it.

With regard to prophecy and His return, the Bible clearly states:

2nd Peter 3:3-10 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare...

39

Mattisyahu,

20/04/2009 03:30:01
...You don’t have to believe this to make it true - but you absolutely will discover it as absolute one way or another. Just as you can say I don’t believe in electricity because I can’t see it - it has the power to take your life and this power is clearly seen by it’s effect on anything it touches. Today is the day of salvation, if you hear Him calling out to you, respond for the day is coming when h will no longer strive with a man and will turn him over to his wicked desires.

I pray all will see the venom in every word spoken in the previous harsh, profane scoffing and the acidic nature of such hatred turning your hearts to stone - the passage above may have been written with your very name in mind. Religion doesn’t kill people…sinful people kill people and one should never seek to judge the Savior by the fallible human who may call himself a Christian but is not born again into the family of God through Jesus Christ. May He have mercy on you all who know not what they do!

In the patience and love of Yeshua Ha’Moshiach - Jesus Christ the Lord
40

as13,

Sunderland 20/04/2009 09:13:02
dear oh dear!
who let the zealots out!

remember.....never discuss religion, politics or toast!
there are no winners in arguments like these!
41

Thrawn,

UK 20/04/2009 09:21:14
Perhaps Tony Blair could address the General Assembly.

All he would have to do is rehash the recent comments that he made for the benefit of fellow Roman Catholics.

The early Church was not in favour of homosexuals because they could not procreate and so increase the then small numbers of the faithful.
42

oiler,

20/04/2009 13:16:52
Ha ha
lets laugh at all the numbskulls !!!

Get a life
43

Scottscott,

Houston 20/04/2009 13:59:53
Oh my..........I didn't know Scotland was so Godless. I am glad my grandfather left there in 1795.
44

Scottscott,

Houston 20/04/2009 14:02:06
dear oh dear!
who let the zealots out!




Words from a true secular. How sad.
45

Ally,

London 20/04/2009 14:36:29
Is it just me, or does anyone else find it amusing that we're being preached to here by respondents from Texas? Thou shalt not kill...unless it's politically convenient and you're making a hash of the presidency, in which case it's perfectly OK to kill hundreds of thousands of people who've never done anything to you.

Obviously that's the real word of God, and they had to abridge it to make it fit first time around.
46

Pappy Harmon,

United States 20/04/2009 15:31:50
Your statement in the article "And yet there are many who continue to be bound by a few Biblical verses – none of them in the Gospels – about homosexuality, nowadays understood as a matter of genetics rather than lifestyle."

Is both circumlocution and a sweeping generality mixed with a bit of bad biology. Genetics has not proven a link between homosexuality and a gene which causes it. Many attempts have been made with no luck. Saying it does not make it so.

Also, to say that a Biblical principle is not contained in the Gospels is ludicrous. Must we throw away the whole Bible because we don't like what is says?

The majority of the Bible does not need personal interpretation and can be easily read and understood by a 5th or 6th grader.

Love is how we will know real Christians, but not at the expense of ignoring danger to those we love.
47

oiler,

20/04/2009 17:58:59
43 so are we mate.The less screaming god botherers the better
48

Mr Winkie,

New York 20/04/2009 20:07:22
hmmm, perhaps all you Scots have been wearing kilts for too long - you've turned into a big bunch of girly boys - William Wallace would be horrified!
49

Augstine,

Australia 20/04/2009 21:07:04
Hi,
We should not read Leviticus for our understanding that Homosexuality is against God's Law. However, we can go to the New Testament to the book of Romans to find these acts condemned by God.

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they inven
50

chk555,

Fort Drum 20/04/2009 22:17:56
Jesus did mention a word that would have included homosexuality as sinful in the Gospel. The Greek word porn-yoo-o, from whence we get the word pornography. Would include all sexual expressions outside of a life long monogamous heterosexual marriage as sin. See Strong's Greek Word, #4203. Jesus used the plural of this word in Matt 5:32, and Matt 19:9.

This word would include all sexual behavior between persons of the same sex. Also, the New Testament also condemns homosexuality in Romans 1:27. All scripture is inspired equally, there are many things in the New Testament that Jesus did not mention, but that does not make them any less authoritative.

It is obvious that the leadership in the Scottish Church are more interested in political correctness than being true to honest Biblical exegesis.

Also, there is a good atheistic argument against homosexual behavior. Homosexual behavior goes against Darwinian Evolution. Any higher mammal that does not reproduce heterosexuality can not pass on it's genes without some sort of artificial means. Evolutionary progress in higher mammals depends on heterosexual reproduction. Homosexuality violates this, and therefore is not good for the evolutionary progress of a species.

Secular societies have a vested interest in preserving and protecting this evolutionary progress of the most intelligent species on the planet.
51

Polemos,

USA 21/04/2009 03:34:37
Homosexuality; an Expression of Gods Wrath:

http://poleblog.polemos.net/2009/04/homosexuality-expression-of-gods-wrath.html
52

oiler,

21/04/2009 08:49:38
God is man made .
it was created in order to inflict the will of stronger men on the weak minded.(if you dont make wealth offerings to me then the sun wont come up etc etc)
How can anyone claim intelligence while spouting voodo claptrap
53

oiler,

21/04/2009 08:52:03
48
With a name like Mr Winkie perhaps you should be a bit more introspective before generalising a nation
Ya tube
54

Sedov,

21/04/2009 11:11:57
Can anyone prove that god does really exist? - If so I will go to church this Sunday.
55

john z,

edinburgh 22/04/2009 16:36:55
Oh, no, all the religious freaks from Americaland are posting here!! If you want to meet REAL religious nutters just visit the USA. More extreme in their views than the taleban.

Not content with offending Scottish culture (try offending a Scottish squaddie wearing a kilt - oh and for the record the kilt is not a skirt)

Problem is, these religous freaks all believe it is ok to encourage hatred of gay people, with little thought to the fact that their hateful venomous comments just give succour to the thugs and barbarians who beat and murder gay people around the world on a daily basis.

Oh I forgot, 'they hate the sinner, not the sin' don't they. Funny growing up I can't remember which part of christian teaching tells us to HATE, period. Besides, Homosexual and homosexuality are indivisable, by definition. Doh!!

Part of the problem of course is that what these religious freaks think they know about homosexuals would fill volumes, but what they ACTUALLY DO know, could be written on the back of a postage stamp.

But these religious freaks are not the kinds of people to let real facts get in the way of their bigotry.

The bible says children who curse their parents should be killed (Leviticus), and yet we don't see these religious freaks from americaland shouting that it should happen, but they are happy to point out parts of the bible regarding homosexuality.

Double standards, lies, deception and pure hypocrisy

The fact is, the Church of Scotland has always been more progressive than some, and light years ahead of the evangelical psycho's from americaland.

Anyway, anybody in the 21st century who still believes in any of this superstitious mumbo jumbo needs some serious psychiatric help.
56

john z,

edinburgh 22/04/2009 16:42:28
So, here's a question.

If we should just ignore Leviticus, who made the decision to do so??

I mean someone must have said 'oh, us christians, we should just ignore anything in Leviticus, because it just doesn't suit us'. We'll use the rest of the bible (god's inspired word, don't forget), but leave out that bit.

So, can we assume that god was wrong to include Leviticus??

Was he also wrong to include the bit about Abraham tying his son up, and attempting to murder (sacrifice) him?? I think nowadays we call that child torture, and attempted murder, yet it is celebrated by christians.

I think it's called spin, or just plain old b*llsh*t.
57

john z,

edinburgh 22/04/2009 16:52:37
For reference, here are some more interesting 'commands' from the good book....

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)
 
If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10). 

If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)

If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death.  (Leviticus 20:14)

If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16). 

If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18)

If a priest's daughter is a prostitute, she is to be burnt at the stake.  (Leviticus 21:9)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community.  (Leviticus 24:14-16)

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Apparently, all of the above is ignored, only the bits about homosexuality are used;

In Leviticus 20:13; the bible says; If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.

So, according to the bible, gays should be killed. How convenient.


Isn't the bible a really good moral compass for young people?

I mean isn't it?? I especially like the one about people with flat noses.
58

Pappy Harmon,

Decatur, GA USA 22/04/2009 17:30:17
My answer to JohnZ Edinburgh. I must be one of those USA nuts you speak of. I disagree with your viewpoint but don't feel the need to attack you personally nor ridicule your opinion. Decency, good taste and good manners prevent me from doing otherwise. I notice that when people run out of answers or facts, they attack people instead. It must be a failing of the liberal left.
I can even disagree with you but listen to your arguments. I do not dismiss them outright. One of the marks of extreme prejudice is to put one in a little box (such as religious nut) and then attack them personally. Has all debate reached that point? Now, John, I don't really think you are that close-minded; I believe that you are a very rational, well-educated and reasonable individual.

Thank you.

59

DiscipleofChrist,

USA 24/04/2009 20:01:30
I am very saddened by most of the Godless remarks on this post, but not suprised. The Bible speaks of these times in specifics!!! 20 years ago you could not have told 98 percent of America that we would be see Gays allowed to marry!! So Godless that you are ---20 years from now--A man that is attracted to a small boy-not even thought of today-that is what we have to look forward to? Same argument. "Well he is really attracted, so what he is 11 or 12 , he can't fight that attract!!I am born that way , I cant help it!!!"

IT is GARBAGE.NO Christians are not haters, they are lovers of GOD and they will not bend or listen to your argument. This is all getting really really ugly. Wait common sense, not even getting into the Bible. Wait that is totally unnatrual!!! Does not produce offspring!! Where will you divients stop your BS and talking about GARBAGE!!! IT is not normal and for me to say that is not hate, that is LOVE !!! Love to tell you that we have a JUst GOD and to repent -turn away fron your sins. You remind me of the people that were warned by Noah. Scoffed and laughed -much the way you are here, guess what? The rain came and they screams and banged at the door!!! They realized too late!!! Or the story of Lot when the angels visited and the diveints were outside the door wanting to lay with the Angels. God made you and you laugh in his face!!! It will be too late --listen and seek God with all your heart!!!! You Fools!!You scoff at your maker!! Jesus says to Repent and sin nomore!!! Your want to accept what this Scottish Church says, is typical of idolatry. You make your own Gods in your heads or at your Universities, and there is no Salvation except throught the Lord Jesus Christ!!! No Hate here, I know that is a talking point of the Liberal left .But who got hateful when California voted down gay marriage-wasn't the Christians--but the devients!!!Do you know what eternity is? It is a very long time!! And as a Christian I weep for the souls of the unsaved-be
60

Jackie,

Blairgowrie 26/04/2009 00:55:53
Just wondering. If we are to accept homosexuality (either male or female) as the norm. What provision shall we make for the continuity of our species?

If anyone speaks against it, the politically correct State puts them down, and now the Church is doing the same (I see no-one arguing for the seperation of church and state now)

Any way back to my question. Many gay couples want children, but cannot themselves conceive them. Will the national health service have to set up s***m (the full word is not allowed it seems) and egg donor centres? It is ok saying there are plenty kids needing homes. If gay lifestyle becomes the norm for society that supply of kids will dry up. What then? OK a lesbian couple could use artificial insemination. But what about the male couples? Perhaps a law could be past to force women to have children to pass over to these couples.

How do you all think the problems will be dealt with?
61

Jabez,

Germany 27/04/2009 13:21:38
As A child I was both sexually abused and beaten up on a regular basis by my Step-father, in all my life my mother never once took me in her arms and told me that she loved me. I spent all my teenage years and most of my adult life with nothing but hate and contempt, and believed with all my heart that no one had as much right in this world to hate God as much as I did, It took years for me to learn to trust in anyone.

For the first three years after my daughter was born, I was so scared to change her nappy or to bath her without having my wife in the same room as me in case I did the same as my step-father, it also took many years for me to take her in my arms and tell her just how much I loved her, something I had never learnt as a child was not easy for me to do to my own child. But thanks to a patient and loving wife I learnt how to. It took forty years for me to learn that God was not to blame for my childhood. It was also through God with his help that I learnt to forgive my step-father for what he had done to me, and I thank God with all my heart that he gave me the time I needed to tell my step-father that I had forgiven him before he died.

I am not going to add my comments to the above article that was said by some church. I have another reason for writing this which I will come to shortly. Firstly to all you none believers out their that have added your comments above, please don’t blame all the churches or all the religions because of what one church has said, I know that some of you are angry at what has been said but if you must direct your anger somewhere and get it out your system then direct it to those who said it. Don’t direct your anger towards God.

I know that there are many churches and many Christians out there who do take parts of the Bible and falsely interpret it to suit their needs and disregard the rest that don’t suit them, for that I can only apologise on their behave. It is not their fault they have been subjected to a fals
62

Jabez,

Germany 27/04/2009 13:24:21
It is not their fault they have been subjected to a false doctrine that has been predicted in the Bible that would happen in the future and unfortunately that time has come.

I draw my attention now to why I posted a comment in the first place, this is something my fellow Christians should have picked up on a lot sooner, but shame on them, they were trying to hard to smother you all with fancy Bible talk that could not and would not be understood. Too much theology and not enough love brothers and sisters. The shame part in them is that they were so engrossed in what they were doing that they missed the fact that some had posed a question in their comment, which is the main reason for me writing this.

Comment # 54, you asked and I quote “Can anyone prove that god does really exist? - If so I will go to church this Sunday” unquote. Normally I would answer such a question with Can you prove that God does NOT exist and I will stop going to church, but I have given your question much thought and just in case you are really seeking to know the truth and that it might not have been said by you as a bit of humour on your part. Here then is my answer.
63

Jabez,

Germany 27/04/2009 13:25:02
If you are really seeking to know the truth, then forget everything that anyone has ever said to you about God, Religion, and the Bible, including what has been said on this web page by believers and non-believers and by me as well. And if by chance you truly are seeking to know if God exists then ask Him yourself, get hold of a Bible, and then with an honest and pure heart ask God yourself to show you Himself in his own words from the Bible. Do not add anything to what is written or take away anything that is written in the Bible just read it as it is with an open heart and I believe you will get your answer. God will openly reveal Himself to anyone honestly seeking the truth, He will however, not reveal Himself if you are doing it for to prove a point or are using it to your own advantage. But with a humble and pure heart all things are possible.

Just for the record, I know that this will most likely get some comments, but that’s okay I have got big shoulders and can take it. Also I may live and work in Germany, but for the first half of my life I was born and lived in Scotland. Thank you for taking the time to read this

 

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