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If all else fails, oust Mugabe by force, says Moderator

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Published Date: 03 July 2008
THE Church of Scotland Moderator, David Lunan, today backs direct intervention in Zimbabwe by other African countries – even including military action – to oust president Robert Mugabe from power.
Writing in The Scotsman, the Rt Rev Lunan, who took over as the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland earlier this year, says something has to be done to end the suffering in the southern African country.

The Moderator is adamant that intervention should not come from the West or from former colonial powers, insisting that it is up to African countries to take the lead.

But he said that, if other African nations do decide to intervene militarily to remove Mugabe and re-establish democracy, then he would give that action his full support.

Mr Lunan says: "A lasting solution can only come from within the southern African region. Even as we condemn the violence, and call on our own government to act, we recognise that Western-led action will only make the situation worse.

"We support intervention led by Africans to solve an African problem. We call on our government to back African involvement, even if that includes direct intervention."

The Moderator's strong comments came as Gordon Brown hit out at Mugabe's "blood-stained" Zimbabwean regime and branded last weekend's election result a "travesty".

Mugabe was re-elected as President of Zimbabwe last weekend in an uncontested election after his rival, Morgan Tsvangirai, withdrew warning that his supporters risked getting killed if they went out to vote.

The decision by Mr Lunan to speak out so forcibly and to back military action, if that is the decision by other African nations, represents a significant step for the Kirk. But the Moderator feels so strongly about the situation in Zimbabwe because he has heard repeated stories from church colleagues in the southern African country and knows that, without some form of intervention, the suffering and brutality will continue.

He says: "Just as in years past a passion for justice has united southern Africans to bring down the racist Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland and the apartheid regime in South Africa, so today we look to the leaders and people of southern Africa to bring an end to the monstrous oppression being endured by the people of Zimbabwe."

And he adds: "We believe that action can be taken which will restore the hope of the people of Zimbabwe.

"Responsibility for that action lies with all of us, with people of good will here in the UK, and in the West, and especially with Zimbabwe's neighbours in Africa."

Brown in pledge on sanctions

GORDON Brown hit out at the uncontested presidential election during Prime Ministers Question's yesterday.

Mr Brown told the Commons that the "only credible" election was the earlier one, in which the opposition "MDC recorded a victory".

He welcomed the African Union's call for an end to violence and mediation, before setting up a "transitional" government in the country.

"Having talked to the UN Secretary General this morning, I think it's right that the UN send an envoy to Zimbabwe.

"In the absence of real change we will step up our sanctions and ask other countries to do so," he warned.

"We will press for tough action on Zimbabwe at the Security Council later today. We will do so at the G8 in the coming days."

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 02 July 2008 9:59 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Zimbabwe
 
1

karinxxx,

03/07/2008 00:31:38
Its not going to happen there is no oil there so ukania and us will be steering clear of going in.
2

blackrat,

Glaasgow 03/07/2008 01:12:40
At last a Moderator who is willing to put the C of S money where its mouth is!!! This is a departure from the usual wishy washy nonsense spouted by the C of S on every and any subject which may be slightly controversial, and might, horror of horrors upset someone!! If this is a sign of a future hard line on controversial issues, in similar fashion to our Roman Catholic cousins then I have to say congratulations to the Rt Rvd Lunan for his hard line stance, unfortunately though dont wait for Mr Brown's backing, despite his family background!! Failing that heres hoping that these poor folks get the support they need from their fellow Africans as it would be wrong for us to become militarily involved.
3

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 03/07/2008 01:18:30
I'm sure Brown would love to start another war especially one which showed up how kind he is to the oppressed in Africa.

Pity he can't see his way clear to show the same kind of empathy towards his own citizens. African nations must now show they have the guts to sort this one out.
4

Scullion,

Canada 03/07/2008 01:32:36
I've heard of liberation theology but this takes the cake. Rev. Lunan sounds like one of those Confederate generals who were also parsons-although they personally got mixed up in the gore, something I think the good reverand will avoid.
"Onward Christian Soldiers" indeed.
5

,

03/07/2008 02:00:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

Uilleam Mor,

03/07/2008 02:11:57
Maybe the same could be said about Labour and their hold on power.
7

Beth Boyle,

NY 03/07/2008 02:12:48
The West never goes to war any more for human rights reasons only for oil and empire.
8

Pilrig.,

Livingston 03/07/2008 05:49:25
2 - aye, time the kirk dropped all that leftist, wishy-washy stuff, such as the Sermon on the Mount for example...
9

Pilrig.,

Livingston 03/07/2008 05:50:28
5 - a bit like Vlad & Tynie.
10

Tatties ower the side,

Johannesburg 03/07/2008 06:17:40
#7 Beth
So I presume the troops in Afghanistan are spending their spare time looking for oil. Also, Bosnia, Darfur,Sierra Leone...... in recent times!
11

Ninian Reid,

Edinburgh 03/07/2008 06:21:59
Sanctions will only hurt the people we're trying to save. So let's not even consider them. Mr Lunan is right - and he's brave - to suggest, perhaps as a last resort, there should be some kind of armed intervention. I'd go further, much further. Gordon Brown , son of the manse and occupier of the moral high ground, could order in the SAS to have this despot killed on the spot. Minimum casualties. Maximum boost for his flagging popularity figures. It could be arranged this weekend and be done and dusted by the following Sunday.
12

spiderman,

argyll 03/07/2008 07:42:12
I'm not sure military intervention and killing folk featured highly in Christ's teachings. Is Lunan a loony? Is he making it up as he goes along? Is he losing touch with Christianity. Peaceful methods are the way to go.
13

Erchie Broon,

03/07/2008 08:07:49
From a moral perspective there is nothing wrong with what he is saying but it is completely devoid of reality.Lunan approaches the problem from a democratic western viewpoint failing to accept that Africans dont do democracy and that Western intervention is not only unwelcome but rejected.He doesnt seem to appreciate that Mugabe carries the general support of his buddies in the SADC (Southern Africa Despots Club)who would never criticise or speak out against a man they regard as a hero. Other than Botswana who are literally harmless the rest have adopted silent acquiesence as their stance e.g. South Africa.
The only method these Despots understand is direct confrontation and challenge.Anything else is regarded as weakness so if you really want action Reverend then call for a boycott of the 2010 World Cup in South Africa or its complete removal,campaign for an end to all aid to Zimbabwe including those who support the regime either financially,materially or morally,campaign for individual sanctions against those who support the regime to end their International travel and the closure of their Swiss Bank accounts and call for a UN report on the legitimacy of nearly every so called Government on the entire African continent.
Now that should keep you busy for a while.
14

Strict Ivan Jellicoe,

Renfrew 03/07/2008 08:51:39
More then 50% of the current African leaders were not elected to power by democratic means. Many are good and many are bad.
Many of the worlds current leaders who are democratically elected are good, and similarly many are bad.
George W. Bush was not elected the first time by democratic majority.
Margaret Thatcher had no democratic mandate to rule in Scotland in the 1980s.
Those who stayed silent about that then are now banging the drum because they say that the current Scottish PM has no democratic mandate to rule in England!
Democracy is not all it is cracked up to be. Very often – democracy stinks.
The issue here is broader – how do you get rid of an evil head of state democratic or not - who has overstepped the mark – and when it suits the western leaders to do nothing because it is in their democratically elected interests to continue doing nothing
15

Media 1,

cape town 03/07/2008 09:02:04
I cant see Mugabe being removed by force, but he may be removed by jittery generals looking for amnesty.

At the moment the discussions are all about power sharing, which in itself is proof that ZANU PF lost,because they would never offer the opposition a voice if they felt it wasnt deserved or necessary.

Power sharing will save Mugabe from facing prosecution, and that is the only reason such a deal is being discussed.

Zimbabwe will come right in time. Mugabe will soon be gone and then the big South African investors will move in and rebuild their entire tourist industry, which will spark growth in all the other sectors. The mining industry and farming will be back on track quickly following Mugabe's demise.
But sadly, I fear the same thing will happen all over again. When things begin going right again, when there is wealth then the same problems will arise and the democratic process will be ignored again.
In South Africa we have serious problems at the moment. Our ANC leaders are all fighting among themselves, all jockeying for positions and all deciding whether they are Mbeki or Zuma people. One a Zulu the other a Xhosa and some real tribal divisions beginning to appear, some of which are being dangerously driven by the ANC Youth League, who say they will pick up arms and kill for Zuma.
Our ministers are all seriously under qualified, almost all of them know nothing about their respective portfolios, thus failure and degeneration is all around us.
Crime is out of control, our police chief is up on corruption charges and our minister of safety and security says that if people dont like the crime they should stop moaning or leave, such is the primitive approach to very serious issues.
our health minister wants to treat aids with beetroot and garlic and these are the better ministers.
Our roads department is falling apart, our traffic department is full of armed thugs who had a shoot out with the South African Police in the middle of the city centre
16

John Cameron,

Broughty Ferry 03/07/2008 09:06:43
Since the Church of Scotland so strongly supported the original efforts to put Mugabe in control, it should be no surprise that the Moderator feels something must be done. However, the idea of the ill-disciplined sort of rabble, of which most African armies consist, sorting things out would only lead to even greater slaughter, rape and pillage. We certainly should not expect our armed forces, now over stretched in New Labour myriad of crazy wars, to clean up this mess as well. There is nothing for it but a force consisting of all past Moderators of the General Assembly, any British bishops hanging about, and as many past and present members of the New Labour Cabinet as can be found, to be sent out to do their stuff. I can hardly wait!
17

Media 1,

cape town 03/07/2008 09:07:30
Our country is teetring on the edge of destruction and only business is holding it together. But once the business minds leave for places more in tune with their social requirements the foudations will crumble and the entire country will implode.
It is an illusion that SA is stable, it is not. There is an under current of total and utter government incompetence at every level, the crime is out of control and society is suffering from a seriously dangerous nervous and fearful condition. Who is next to be hi-jacked or murdered we ask? Which politician is going to do something completely stupid today or tomorrow and who will run to this persons support when the media call for his head?
I thought this country would avoid the same fate as most African nations, but sadly she wont.
18

M.Corleone,

2nd Vatican State..........Coatbridge 03/07/2008 09:37:39
When are we ever going to learn that killing just leads to more killing; I wonder if the moderator will pick up a gun to fight ?

Anyway,we might assume that a lot of the British business interests in Zimbabwe will be supporting the government troops to protect their investment.

It is also entirely possible that Big Hen Broon would carry on condemning Mugabe but not really wanting him to go as it would be a distraction lost....another enemy is then required
19

mrd,

fairbanks 03/07/2008 09:51:09
Let's see Mugabe is the south end of a north walking horse, Europe is upset, Europe is talking... big deal...what will happen.... nothing, like normal...Lots of talk, lots of declarations, no action...
when the death toll reaches a serious level, oh lets get the Americans to fix it. But we as Europeans will bitch and moan about the USA, after all, all they do is fix our , European, problems, that we created. Right, like this is going to happen again. We are getting ready to elect a black President, guess what... no more money for food, aids, or anythingelse, and by the way the un is on the chopping block too. MRD
20

Media 1,

cape town 03/07/2008 10:33:59
mrd

It is not that simple.
The problem with this issue is that China is involved and that is more to worry about than America. China owns this world now and we all need to be careful not to upset the Eastern giant.
Remember the cold war? Russia was the country that almost ALL the Southern African freedom fighters warmed to, the ANC has their roots steeped in communism and they all STILL refer to eachother as COMRADE..During this time America and Britain supported the apartheid system because the ANC were funded by the Russians and if this place went to the BIG RED COMMUNIST giant there would have been serious consequences. So America and Britain waited till they brought down the Iron Curtain and then they proceeded to turn their backs on SA pretending to be concerned about the policies they had fought so hard to protect during the cold war.
Now it is China who has the most investment in Africa and god help anyone who f@cks with her territory.
America can do nothing here, there is nothing to fix too much is already broken.
America and Britain will go to Zimbabwe if China says they can, until then nothing will happen.
21

oder,

Scotland 03/07/2008 10:41:50
"if other African nations do decide to intervene militarily to remove Mugabe and re-establish democracy, then he would give that action his full support."

his thinking is heading in the right direction, now he needs to understand African leaders first an foremost don't care about their own people let alone someone else's, since freedom reached the African continent bloodier wars,mass starvation, less democracy, rape killings on a scale the makes the Empire builders and colonists look like rank amateurs. Africans are not concerned with good orderly government,they have shown time and time again they will support Mugabe at all costs! clearly they have a problem identifying right and
wrong!

"for evil to succeed good men do nothing"

isn't that whats happening?
22

Media 1,

cape town 03/07/2008 10:51:34
Oder

That is half the problem, it is like 20 drug dealers sitting round a table discussing the guy down the road who is selling heroine to under age kids..None of them can take the moral high ground since all of them are of the same ilk..
And on the odd occassion that one person does have the moral high ground to speak up, he or she is frowned upon by the rest and called a coconut.
23

spiderman,

Argyll 03/07/2008 11:03:27
#25, Spooky, It's not a question here of whether force should be used against Mugabe or whether Mugabe himself uses force - it's whether the leader of our own church should be advocating force and killing. Where in the bible does that recommendation come from?
24

Andra, Dundee,

03/07/2008 11:27:06
It seems to me that most African leaders have more in common with Mugabe than against him. They are in politics for the power and wealth and care not for improving the lives of their fellow Africans. If anything they will be happy that there is a worse guy getting the West's attention and diverting attention from themselves.
Until Africans have respect for the lives of their fellow people, we are fighting a loosing battle trying to make a difference from Europe. I suspect Africans will need to stand up for themselves against their repressors.

25

taIk o' the toun,

03/07/2008 11:28:50

#27

If you question the moderator you shall be put to death. It says so in the Bible:

"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. " (Deuteronomy 17:12)

Also, if you have any sons, then they must be put to death. It's one of the rules in the Bible:

"Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants." (Isaiah 14:21)

But of course, if you have any daughters, you're perfectly ok to sell them as slaves. It says so in the Bible:

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her." Exodus 21:7-8

Anyone failing to live by these rules is a sinner who will go to Hell for all eternity.

26

Sir Minty Moonbeams, Casino Royale,

03/07/2008 11:50:33
Although my true allegiance is to Rome, I am 100% behind the moderator....in fact, I am slightly more extreme and think we should go in now.

I was in the TA for 6 years, my liability for call-up expired in 1998.

I would however be delighted to participate in any operation to kick mugabee's ass.
27

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 03/07/2008 13:22:14
Don't oust that syphilitic old man by force.

Have him assassinated or put him in jail for the rest of his life where he can be ritually sexually-assaulted each night by "Bubba" who possesses an endowment called "The Black Monster".

Serves him right for bankrupting Zimbabwe and being an embarrassment to the rest of Africa.

And why is the President of South Africa being such a spineless wimp with regard to Mugabe? He is a disgrace to South Africa and possesses no cachet or manly vigour. What a sissy.
28

Capital Scot from Auld Reekie,

03/07/2008 13:26:29
I am glad to see the Moderator taking this line and similar to Archbishop Desmond Tutu, but it is more than what is being said from The Pope noting that Mugabe is a devout Catholic you would have thought he would have been excommunicated by now for his actions, but instead a deafening silence!!!!
29

hertscot,

03/07/2008 13:34:52
Usually I complain when religion interferes in politics.

Shut up Moderator!
30

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 03/07/2008 13:38:22
Leave them to work it out for themselves.

This idea we can go around the world fixing problems should avoided at all costs. And it really does cost.

Give Africans the time and space to sort out their own little part of the world and we should concentrate on ours.

Usually we upset the balance and send it the wrong people and corrupt business people and government type and make problems worse.

It Africa cannot sort itself out it will die.
31

Claymore,

03/07/2008 16:13:44
Is he an immoderate moderator?
32

Geomac 1,

Scotland 03/07/2008 16:51:44
It seems to me that the church is involving itself ever more in politics - last week they were pontificating about global warming and now about foreign affairs.
What's for next week??
That said Africa must be responsible for itself - we've tried and tried but all we've done is swell the Swiss bank accounts of tyrants. If we try to do more, they shout about us being colonialists - get on with addressing the problems yourselves Africa!
33

Great Scott.,

Clearbrook Vancouver 03/07/2008 18:48:07
I understood that George Bush and Tony Blair were called War Criminals for launching 'an aggressive war' against Iraq for the same reasons the Church of Scotland Moderator is advocating
The Moderator should resign,for preaching 'another Gospel' than the one the Church received.The hypocrisy of the Left masquerading as Christianity in Britain takes one's breath away!
34

Mcsnagpile,

03/07/2008 19:17:13
The Moderator has got this all-wrong.
As Mugabe has a Roman Catholic Education, the Pope should be counselling him. Blair could have a word. With the Pope I mean, not God.
We could send in the conquistadors.
My African friends always seemed so contented with the small things in life, some how there are always people that want to muddy the waters.
35

Pilrig.,

Livingston 03/07/2008 19:41:18
15 - boycott the World Cup ? have a word with yersel !
36

Pilrig.,

Livingston 03/07/2008 19:48:35
38 - pass the Lord and praise the ammo
37

Angus Coull,

San Francisco 03/07/2008 21:25:35
Isn't there already an army-in-waiting in Zimbabwe ready to overthrow Mugabe? No need for any invasions by anybody, the British government, and anybody else who was willing and able, could just provide money and weapons to the MDC.
38

McGinty,

03/07/2008 23:27:32

As Christ commended political authorities for keeping the peace, there is an ethical case within Christianity for using reasonable force to that end or not as the case may be.
39

Jock Scot,

East Lothian 04/07/2008 00:23:34

#31

TimW12345

I agree with you in principal. Give Bob a good Rodgering!
But it doesn't seem to have done you any harm.




40

Trade-wind,

USA 04/07/2008 06:37:51
I have friends in SA who are immigrants from Zim.
This MUGABE is/was a hero of the war in ZIM to over throw white rule. White rule had made Zim a place
where living was good for all even the Black Africans.
They may not have been the ruling class in Zim but they
did not know what they were getting with freedom from white rule. They are now the ruling class and don't understand what or how to rule. They wish the country was like it used to be, but it never will be under black rule. Be careful what you wish for. Somebody black ought to shoot Mugs. I am not sure if a white candidate could win an election in Zim but I bet he would get one hell of a lot of votes. I firmly believe you get what you ask for. They ask for this now it is up to them to fix it. Over throw Mugs fight for yourselves and your country or be slaves to Black masters and see how brutal and savage your own kind are.
I am conflicted because clearly there are good people there dying under this guy and that shouldn't be. Yet we did not do this to them contrary to what some poster think, so let them sink or swim.
41

Sons of Andrew,

Johannesburg 04/07/2008 08:49:48
15 & 40 Good point. Our World Cup qualifing campaign won't be a 'heroic failure'. It will be a deliberate attempt to draw the world's attention to Zimbabwe through choosing not to qualify on goal difference by missing a penalty in the last minute of the final game!
42

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 04/07/2008 11:11:40
44 Jock Scott

I am afraid you are operating under a misapprehension.

I have never been "into" that practice of "Rodgering" as you so erroneously termed it with reference to me and it is presumptuous of you to make such scandalous allegations vis-a-vis moi. Where is your proof or are you some sort of wacky Scottish clairvoyant OR SOMETHING?

UP YOURS, JOCK!
43

bluehead,

edinburgh 12/07/2008 09:54:32
what are they going to do? send in the Boy Scouts!
it would seem that this country is involved in so many troubles around the world that there will be no troops left to go anywhere,
the British pile should stop sticking there nose up everyone's backyard,
there is enough trouble in this country nowadays to need troops patrolling our own street's the place has become like the Wild west.

 

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