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Fox: Tories will withdraw UK troops from Germany

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Published Date: 21 November 2009
By James Tapsfield
THE Conservatives have committed to end 70 years of history by withdrawing all troops from Germany.
Shadow defence secretary Liam Fox has said it is "no longer necessary" to maintain the presence of more than 20,000 military personnel. Ending the commitment would free up forces to carry out vital Nato operations outside of Europe, he said.

Generations of squaddies have passed through Germany since the end of the Second World War, although the size has been scaled down. The presence is now centred on Herford near Hanover, where the 1st Armoured Division is based.

A final decision will depend on negotiations with Nato allies.

Dr Fox insisted: "If other countries are willing to take up roles in continental defence, that leaves Britain and France able to take on expeditionary roles.

"Finding a more creative diplomatic solution in Nato will be a priority for an incoming Conservative government."





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  • Last Updated: 21 November 2009 1:08 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Group Captain Lionel Mandrake,

21/11/2009 07:52:38

Smart thinking from Dr Foxy.
2

New Danielrober,

21/11/2009 08:25:49
At last a British politician who acknowledges the wars are over, we won its over. Just excellent.

We have a huge number of forces spending cash, subsidizing Germany and generally been made to feel like an occupying power, when they were there to DEFEND Germany. Since the Germans, never thank the UK and France for this help we may as well pull out. Lets have some new UK bases with great family accommodation, training grounds and I’m sure Canada will still allow heavy weapons practice there.

Trust a Fox to find an escape route. You’ll do for me pal, if, you get us out of this ridiculous situation.
3

mr broon,

Edinburgh 21/11/2009 09:07:29
Prior to a General Election, its a good soundbite from the Tory Defence spokesman desperately looking for savings?

However, has the UK not committed to international Treaties along with its NATO partners which would mean it would have to unilaterally break them?

Would the withdrawal of 20,000 UK forces not send the wrong signal to potential enemies?

Would it not be interpreted as a sign of weakness?

We all know the cash-strapped and declining UK can no longer afford to maintain its NATO commitment?

However, the US would never allow it.

The poodle will do as it is told.

4

New Danielrober,

21/11/2009 09:21:36
# 3 mr broon,Edinburgh
Nonsense. Germanys defence sector is like a rich credit kid who tells you how much money they have, whilst backed up by Daddies bank balance. Germany has tipped too many times into our cash funds for defence.

Time for Germany to start shelling out for her own defence, allowing German troops to hold their own is dignified.
5

Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 21/11/2009 09:50:02
#2 New Danielrober - "We have a huge number of forces spending cash, subsidizing Germany and generally been made to feel like an occupying power, when they were there to DEFEND Germany" - British troops were never in Germany to "defend Germany" but rather defend NATO. Germany just happened to be where the main threat was up until the collapse of the Warsaw Pact. Presumably you have never served in BAOR (or BFG as it is now), otherwise you would not make ludicrous statements about "subsidising Germany", "occupying power" and, most laughable, about the Germans not thanking the UK and France.
Since there are 20,000 troops still in Germany, housed in high quality barracks (some of these date from the 1930s when many UK based British soldiers were living in wooden huts), the Tories would have to spend a massive amount of money on building barracks for these troops since there is no spare barrack space left in the UK. Also the MOD has sold off so much land and property (and will need to sell more to help balance the books)that existing training facilities in the UK will be severely streched if Troops currently based in Germany have to used them as well (not really cost-effective to jet off to Canada for low-level infantry training and battle camps).
6

Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 21/11/2009 09:56:11
#4 New Danielrober - "Time for Germany to start shelling out for her own defence, allowing German troops to hold their own is dignified" - During the Cold War the Bundeswehr dwarfed the total Armed Forces of the UK, not just those in Germany and still is much larger now. Thus you will appreciate (or should do) that 20,000 British Troops in Germany are not perceived as a major contribution to the defence of Germany.
I suspect that your too-apparent anti-German bigotry has clouded your judgement.
7

New Danielrober,

21/11/2009 10:28:21
# Arminius,Bei Uelzen

We were there in 1949 because of world war two.
We were there in 1969 because of the cold war.
Why are we there in 2009? What’s the Strategic Point?

As for the anti-German bigotry, do grow up. I know many Germans, modern Germans who don’t see the point in our army been there either.

Do grow up or buy a calendar its 2009.
8

The west awake,

Argyll 21/11/2009 11:08:22
The seoond war is long over, the cold war is long over. We now live in a post cold war world, where our miltary presence in Germany is no longer relevant, necessary or even advisable.
Why the present Labour Govt. have not called for their recall, but istead left it to the Tories to call for this overdue and sensible move is beyond me, although of course can easily be ascribed to their general ineptitude.

Get them home and retire them or redeploy them. Put the money saved into social housing. Thats what most Labour voters, even now, would want, thats what the "old" Labour Party would have done.
The party of Blair. Mandelson and Brown is not that party though...
9

Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 21/11/2009 13:18:07
#7 New Danielrober - Rather a predictable reaction and a snotty, roundabout admission that you have never been near BAOR/BFG and have no understanding of its mission past and present.
The bottom line is that British Troops are still in Germany as there is nowhere to garrison an additional 20,000 troops (many with heavy armour) in the UK or elsewhere. BATUS in Canada is merely a training area for British (and other) troops not a garrison and, in any case, only operates from May to October each year because of the climate.
The "many" Germans you know (rather less than me I suspect since I live here) must be of a certain ilk, as the majority of the Germans I know either have no strong feelings about BFG or welcome the boost that it brings to the local economy.
People who make staements like "Time for Germany to start shelling out for her own defence" are either anti-German or ignorant since Germany has the 4th largest military budget in NATO (much higher during the Cold War and then, unlike Britain, entirely devoted to defending German soil).
Finally, your statements "Do grow up or buy a calendar its 2009" does not indicate a mature attitude.
10

New Danielrober,

21/11/2009 17:02:25
# 9 Arminius,Bei Uelzen

What rot, just so much ‘PINS AND NEEDLES’ about no spaces, for our guys to come home? Or do you plan to sent-up your regimental headquarters in Regents Park.

UK members of the Armed Forces get done over all the time because it’s difficult for them to buy useless accommodation, as postings are out of the UK. By returning forces to the UK, serving members would have the opportunity to save, buy and walk away from service with more than memories. I have seen excellent accommodation built across the UK as hotels, leisure centres, outdoor centres and university accommodation – yet you say we can not build. That ‘no space here‘ attitude is just mean.

As for my service I have not served in any part of the armed forces, or joined even a heavily armed gun toting militia/vigilante group. The support for the military in the country includes family and friends. Some of us respect the armed forces and do not wish to see them hid away like that a poorly appreciated fire extinguisher.

The cold war ended 20 years ago, though you seem to of missed the ceremonies. Please, Please, Please do not moan on about how our continental allies will crumble if there is no British back bone in the defences. That attitude towards other European is nonsense. Let the forces come home, where they are wanted and appreciated.
11

New Danielrober,

21/11/2009 17:13:22
Arminius,Bei Uelzen

Asking UK money to be spent in the UK, at UK bases, is not anti-German. Calling anyone who questions the status quo, 20 years after the cold war has ended, will not serve you or your masters well.

Why not take time out, away from the supermarket bar and look at the many spaces in the UK, including former industrial ones. There are many sites which will take the heaviest of equipment, without even the need to reinforce the floors.

You have a nice day now. :-)
12

Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 21/11/2009 20:01:21
#10 New Danielrober - Seems the New Danielrober is as arrogant as the old one.
At no point did I say that "we can not build" but to build accomadation and training facilities for 20,000 troops will take time, land and money. The MOD is broke and has sold off much of the land it owned so it will not be able a achieve what you suggest for the forseeable future given that it has already shelved plans to upgrade military housing (to Z Type) in the UK this year as well as cutting back the budget elsewhere (including the miniscule budget of the Territorial Army).
I can assure you that troops based in Germany do not see themselves as see themselves as hidden away "like that a poorly appreciated fire extinguisher"; it is a much liked posting and British troops have formed close bonds with the Germans at personal and official levels. They also have plenty of opportunity to save, buy and walk away from service with more than memories given that they are paid more than UK based troops (for example, a Sergeant with a wife and 3 children receives over £10,000 per annum in Local Overseas Allowance). For someone who claims to have respect the armed forces, you seem to know very little about them.
I am well aware that the Cold War has ended as i was on exercise with my Regiment close to the border when the Berlin Wall was breached. Germany is quite capable of defending itself and faces little in the way of threat in Europe. Defence of Germany is not why British Forces are still based there.
13

Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 21/11/2009 20:11:52
#11 New Danielrober - My supermarket does not have a bar and as I recall there are at present very limited training areas in the UK for the "heaviest of equipment" and most of it is booked solid for UK based troops about to deploy to Afghanistan.
Most British bases in Germany closed in the 20 years since the Cold War ended so the status quo is very different from the situation in 1989. The UK is also looking to draw down its presence in Cyprus and space will have to be found for those troops. British Forces will not remain in Germany for ever but they will be there for some time to come in what is a prized and much appreciated posting.
Perhaps you could enlighten me as to where these many sites are that the MOD could purchase at minimal cost and house 20,000 troops to the standard they are used to? Don't think too hard now, you might strain something.....
14

New Danielrober,

21/11/2009 20:35:22
12 Arminius,Bei Uelzen

I have had many long hours of conversations with former members of BAOR, many of whom were childhood friends. Your point of is real, but so were there’s. Regimental towns have practically disappeared along with the heritage and respect, which has been earned by members of the armed forces. Small regimental bases have worked for centuries, why have you abandoned them when other European countries have not. They are nice places to live, work and retire – what’s the problem?

By the way, the Berlin walls was not breached, it was crumbled on both sides by new attitudes – 20 years ago. Please feel free to call me arrogant, I’ll still be pushing for better active pay, treatment of veterans and yep accommodation on Monday as I did of Friday.


13 Arminius,Bei Uelzen

I’ve quite travelled around the UK and elsewhere and believe me there is more than enough space for a base of 80,000 troops in these isles let alone a broken up number of 20,000 troops. Now quick access for Harrods I’m not too certain about, but then again the East of London too has vast spaces which can more than accommodate the troops – what’s the problem with that?


15

Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 22/11/2009 07:47:33
#14 New Danielrober - I have been a member of BAOR and talk to current members of BFG amlost every day. There is no great desire to give up their posting in Germany to return to the UK where the MOD cannot yet provide decent accomodation for all of the soldiers based here (some of the accomodation in the UK is so substandart that soldiers have to live in rented accomadation). In case you have not noticed, the MOD (like the country in general) is broke and does not have the money for land appropriation and building work on the scale required.
The Berlin wall was "breached" in that it was opened and East Berliners poured into West Berlin (there wasn't much traffic the other way). The "crumbling" part came slightly later when people took pick axes to it. There were certainly no "new attitudes" in the DDR which lead to the fall of the Berlin Wall as it was a hardline Communist state right almost to the end, swept away by the tide of history. Unfortunately it was not sufficiently purged and many of the oppressors of the Stasi state still walk anongst us some still peddling their discredited message in the political arena.
I am sure there is enough space for 80,000 troops to be located but I am sure I mentioned that the MOD is broke. I am not sure the troops involved would be too keen to be accommodated in the East of London either.
16

Jobless recovery,

22/11/2009 19:56:14
What about withdrawing Britain from the EU?

 

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