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Calman: Case exists for extra powers at Holyrood

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Published Date: 01 December 2008
By HAMISH MACDONELL
Scottish Political Editor
THERE is a case for control of firearms, broadcasting and some financial powers to be devolved to the Scottish Parliament, the expert group looking into the devolution settlement will announce tomorrow.
The Calman Commission, set up by the Unionist parties to examine the powers of the Scottish Parliament, will publish its interim report tomorrow. This report will not make any firm recommendations, rather it will set out the broad areas where the bod
y feels changes could be made.

It is understood that the group has come to the conclusion that there is a case for the control of firearms legislation and broadcasting to be devolved to the Scottish Parliament.

However, it has also decided that further investigation needs to be done before definite recommendations can be reached.

A source close to the commission said the likelihood is that control over abortion law will remain at Westminster for the whole of the UK.

It is understood that tomorrow's report will leave open the possibility of either assigning individual Scottish tax revenues to the Scottish Government – rather than simply giving it a block of money at the start of the financial year – or handing over the control of some specific tax powers to Holyrood.

But again, no firm decisions have been taken and all of these financial issues will be examined in further detail over the next six months.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 30 November 2008 10:04 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Devolution
 
1

,

30/11/2008 22:57:34
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2

FrancesP,

01/12/2008 00:16:59
Good grief, Rufus, you hate the SNP and independence, but you also hate Calman, which in case you hadn't noticed is the only other game in town at the moment.

What exactly do you want - direct rule from Westminster on every minute detail of policy? Scotland to drop all pretence and become legally a county of England?
3

UK007,

01/12/2008 00:17:22
#1 What a lot of coherent rubbish.

4

karin.m,

01/12/2008 00:23:35
rufus in case you didnt know it was the westminster government who signed up to the EU minority language treaty and the implementation of it lies with them as the signatories......

it is this treaty that required the setting up of a gaelic lnaguage channel.


so nya nya nya nya nah
5

karin.m,

01/12/2008 00:24:49
I take it then rufus that even english is gaelic to you?
6

Wardog™,

01/12/2008 00:34:12
2 FrancesP, 01/12/2008 00:16:59

Rufus longs after empire, he's part of the raj

7

Wardog™,

01/12/2008 00:39:30
9 Aberdeenshire Scot, 01/12/2008 00:35:56


172 actually

Do they pay you in wurthers originals to be an amateur moderator.

8

Wardog™,

01/12/2008 00:52:03

11. Go ahead my friend....... what the raj has to do with mubai only a the fevered dark receses of a unionist mindset could possibly imagine.

The Heart of Darkness indeed.

9

karin.m,

01/12/2008 00:55:22
6. ooo im shaking in my size 5 stilletos. Can i borrow yours or have you loaned them to your "pet" sheep again?
10

Wardog™,

01/12/2008 00:59:20

13. Karin

I think eberdeenshiite schott wears clogs, more in keeping with the ludite tradition

11

karin.m,

01/12/2008 01:01:46
aye wardog he should try banging his head of a harder brick wall at least if he bashes his brains out he might actually acheive the only good thing he has ever done in his life.
12

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 01/12/2008 01:12:38
OMG. A conflagration of trolls. Sorry Karin.
13

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 01/12/2008 01:18:58
Just think. If some external power gave westminster further autonomy England would rule the world.

Hmmmm?

Scary movie 5?

Meanwhile, we just want a fair deal - any chance of that until we stop being the nice guys?
14

,

01/12/2008 01:20:01
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15

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01/12/2008 01:47:55
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16

,

01/12/2008 02:00:08
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17

Pilrig,

Livingston 01/12/2008 05:30:58
1 - such bigotry. Notice you avoided commenting on the Damian Green case, bottle-merchant.
18

Angleland Isover,

01/12/2008 06:36:55
In this english province if you want something then you have to take it. Too many people sitting on the fence thinking "wait and see what the calman commission comes up with".
19

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/12/2008 06:43:18
The Calman commission after having been 'tampered' with by Westminster comes to the conclusion that Scotland cold maybe, possibly (although no firm conclusions have been drawn) have the Irn Bru revenue.

Waster of time, Scotland need control over everything and most of all compulsory Gaelic education for those in Edinburgh, a period of re-conditioning will be required after independence and Gaelic will be a great start along with Scottish history and a long time spent studying the word quisling.
20

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01/12/2008 06:43:26
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21

,

01/12/2008 06:47:32
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22

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/12/2008 06:53:50
25 sm#

Personally i don't think even among the unionists (Labour party excepted) the Calman commission had much credibility left, it was criticised by the SNP at the start and now members of it's own board are calling it a whitewash.

Just how will firearms control be of any benefit to Scotland and who really gives a s**t?

Calman has bottled it, just another unionists on the side of Westminster than his own people, end of!
23

Thomas1,

// 01/12/2008 07:12:13
So the SNP are correct,the Scottish parliament does need much more powers.
24

,

01/12/2008 07:42:48
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25

,

01/12/2008 08:01:24
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26

Rodster,

Glasgow 01/12/2008 08:08:13
Very amusing re Rufus the truth is even sadder he is an avowed unionist that is 10 times worse than anything you mock in your amusing post
27

Ugly George,

01/12/2008 08:11:01
23 Nevski
"Scotland need control over everything and most of all compulsory Gaelic education for those in Edinburgh, a period of re-conditioning will be required after independence"

Please tell us what you mean by re-conditioning. The reason I ask is that practices of brainwashing used to change attitudes and beliefs have often been called "reconditioning" by their perpetrators. Surely this is not what you envisage so can you please elaborate on what you do mean by it.
28

john z,

edinburgh 01/12/2008 08:25:24
Leak, leak, Leakety Leak.

Are we now going to see Jacqui Smiths' stormtroopers raiding the offices of the Scotsman?????

Fact is, Calman was dead before it even started. It is dead now.

Around a third of people in Scotland consistently say they want independence, yet this nonsense report WILL NOT consider that option. That is a large part of the electorate disenfranchised at a stroke.

The report is a joke.

The authors are a joke.

It is merely a political tool to be used and abused by Brown and his under achieving p(m)uppet Jim Murphy.

More fool the Tories and Lib Dems for getting involved in the first place. I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time.
29

TWC,

01/12/2008 08:26:31
We need control of all our finances and without that we will probably support Independence.

The bottom line is that Fiscal Autonomy is the best option and the more New Labour try to quash it the more people want it.
The Muscatelli group shirked the task, they should have given recommendations on the choices available.
30

john z,

edinburgh 01/12/2008 08:33:00
As regards Gaelic education, I honestly think Gaelic should be a part of the Scottish School curricululm. It is terrible that most Scottish Schoolchildren have NO understanding of a language native to Scotland, yet can speak Spanish or French.

The French take great pride in their own language, and very, very strict laws are in place to protect its status. The same should be done for Gaelic in Scotland.


31

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 01/12/2008 08:34:12
32 john z
"Fact is, Calman was dead before it even started"

Please pass on my condolences to Professor Calman's familiy and friends.
32

TWC,

01/12/2008 08:43:48
35 Ugly George,
Certainly it is dead from a Labour point of view. They kept quoting Calman when they were pressed on Devolution but now they are set against any real power.
Tories and Libdems have a real problem because the Muscatelli white wash and now the tampering by Labour makes it imperative that the Tories & Libdems are seen to be open and Independent.
Personally I can't understand their reluctance,Fiscal Autonomy opens Scotland up to them while the Status Quo keeps Labour in 1st or 2nd place forever.
33

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 01/12/2008 08:46:38
In this debate, an alternative to further devolved powers has been mentioned in the form of a return to Direct Rule at Westminster?

As a last resort, it would be seen as a victory for the Nationalists with only one inevitable outcome!



34

Ugly George,

01/12/2008 08:52:13
john z
"As regards Gaelic education, I honestly think Gaelic should be a part of the Scottish School curricululm."

It is part of the curriculum. There are two forms of Gaelic available at standard grade and Higher - one for native speakers and one for learners.

However the ombined number of entries at standard Grade for both was less than 600 in 2008. This compares with something like 50,000 for maths or 18,000 for geography. This would indicate that while Gaelic (in both forms) is available in the curriculum there is little demand for it.

PS : Entry numbers for all subjects can be found on the SQA website.
35

Number 6,

Germany 01/12/2008 08:53:04
We have already had Cameron admitting Scotland could survive independently and now this report, even after being watered down, gives the same indications.

It looks like we will have to wait until the englanders throw out Liebour and replace them with the hated tories.

No sign of the story that the head of the European Commision has said in an interview in France, that UK ministers (Liebour) are considering joining the euro very soon. Of course, Liebour have denied it.

What kind of mindset has the scottish unionistas that insist on holding on to this farcical mob's coat-tails,
even if it means a tory goverment once again wreaking havoc in Scotland?
36

TWC,

01/12/2008 08:59:53
Darling is a Charlie says that Scotland would be £7.2 Billion worse off if it were on it's own.

Well give us Fiscal Autonomy and use the £7.2 Billion to pay off debt -- it's easy.
37

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 01/12/2008 09:01:02
36 TWC
The UK Tax Payers Alliance which is a Tory minded if not actually Tory group made a submission to the Calman Commission recommending more tax raising powers for the Scottish Parliament and a scrapping of the Barnett Formula even if that meant Scotland getting the bulk of oil revenues.
38

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/12/2008 09:03:28
31 Ugly George#

It was slightly tongue in cheek George, however you make an intersting point when you say this:

'The reason I ask is that practices of brainwashing used to change attitudes and beliefs have often been called "reconditioning" by their perpetrators.'

There is no question in my mind that Scots have for generations been subjected to re-conditioning by the British state.

How else could you possibly explain any Scot that would put Britain before his own country, belittles his own culture and heritage (but never Englands or Britains) and refuses to even consider independence for his own country; if that is not successful conditioning then i don't know what is!
39

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 01/12/2008 09:05:33
39 number 6
"No sign of the story that the head of the European Commision has said in an interview in France, that UK ministers (Liebour) are considering joining the euro very soon. Of course, Liebour have denied it."

Personally, I think this was Barroso just trying to stir things up. The reality is that being in the eurozone would strip the UK govt and the MPC of the powers they are currently using in an attempt to deal with the recession so I do not see how current ministers would be in favour of joining the euro.

40

Rodster,

Glasgow 01/12/2008 09:14:15
People the result in Glenrothes determined that Scotland will receive no further powers Claman or no Calman .
Labour won by 6,000+ votes around the same number of unusally high postal votes ...
conspiracy theorist NOT I !!!!
41

Number 6,

Germany 01/12/2008 09:17:23
#43 George,
you are assuming Liebour ministers care about anything or anybody but themselves. As long as Brown Darling etc are offered places at the main trough, ie Europe, then they would sell their own mother's kidneys to the highest bidder.Nothing is below them, they are capable of anything.

We are already looking at a european id card, a card with no place for the union jack, just the european bull.

Liebour are incompitent and cowardly enough to once again lie to the british people and take us into the euro WITHOUT a referendum.
42

,

01/12/2008 09:24:48
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43

,

01/12/2008 09:27:04
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44

,

01/12/2008 09:27:16
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45

Warden An' All, Reborn,

01/12/2008 09:29:43
I have no problem with broadcasting, but firearms legislation should be under UK legislation. Imagine what the crack pots in the snp asylum might get up to.
46

,

01/12/2008 09:29:50
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47

Number 6,

Germany 01/12/2008 09:39:41
#51 So tell us Warden, what would the SNP policy be ?.

Cue dribbiling from slack jaw onto keyboard.
48

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 09:44:25
The UK is "closer than ever before" to joining the euro, according to the president of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso.

Speaking on a French radio show, he said British politicians were considering the move because of the effects of the global credit crunch.

In the RTL radio/LCI television broadcast, the former prime minister of Portugal said: "We are now closer than ever before.

"I'm not going to break the confidentiality of certain conversations, but some British politicians have already told me, 'If we had the euro, we would have been better off'. "

He said that the current poor economic situation had emphasised the importance of the euro and the UK but added he believed a move would not take place in the immediate future.

"I know that the majority in Britain are still opposed, but there is a period of consideration under way and the people who matter in Britain are currently thinking about it", he said.
49

Queen D,

Glasgow 01/12/2008 09:50:07
I take it the attention seeking one is the one being deleted or is it another escapee from the asylum?
I am very naive , I assumed the Calman thingy would be free of cost except for Sir Kenneth himself, the rest were all being paid as MPs were they not?
50

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01/12/2008 09:51:03
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51

Alan B,

01/12/2008 09:51:35
Calman is a farce if it is not going to give detailed proposals that will be implemented. Talking about broad areas that could be consider tends to suggest the whole thing has been nobbled.

If unionists are serious about scotland remaining within the union they need to understand that is by enhanding the scottish parliament so scotland can play a constructive and positive role and not by trying to undermine scotland and the concept of devolution.
52

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/12/2008 09:54:15
55 Queen D#

I think the unionists will consider £500,000 as a bargain to prevent any more powers coming to Scotland. Calman took the Westminster shilling and has done exactly what was asked of him.
53

John S,

01/12/2008 09:54:36
#54 Fred Quimby.This was also mentioned in Oct 2008
Oct. 15 (Bloomberg) -- Luxembourg Finance Minister Jean-Claude Juncker told German newspaper Rheinischer Merkur the U.K. will consider adopting the euro once the credit crisis abates. ``The British prime minister had to beg to be let into the room in which the euro group was meeting,'' Juncker told the newspaper in an interview published today. ``I'm sure that when the storm is over, the British will think about whether they shouldn't become an equal in all decision-making bodies.''
54

Warden An' All, Reborn,

01/12/2008 09:55:37
53-Number 6-My knowledge doesn’t stretch to the workings of the insane on cloud cuckoo land, also known as snp headquarters, so go on and inform us number 6. Please do?
55

Alan B,

01/12/2008 10:03:09
Good to see an economic expert giving evidence as part of calman has said the report has been tampered with to appease the labour party. Interesting that the scotsman does not allow comments on that thread.
56

Tom R,

01/12/2008 10:09:33
So when will Sir Kenneth Calman be elevated to the Lords for services to unionism???
57

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01/12/2008 10:18:43
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58

Guy Wersh,

eccy byde 01/12/2008 10:45:43
I don't think that Britain would qualify for joining the euro: From the NY Times

"Under the Maastricht Treaty of 1992, which laid down the ground rules for the single European currency, governments are supposed to keep their deficits to less than 3 percent of a country's gross domestic product"
59

Nikostratos,,

01/12/2008 10:46:19
Good report from calaman only one criticism they were to soft on giving more powers to the snp.

and the term Unionist parties really should be the parties of Democracy within the law and loyalty to the true one and indivisible British nation. As opposed to the one party snp state who without consulting the British nation would try all and any ways both legal and illegal to bamboozle the majority into the destruction of a nation.

they have thus far due to the inherent decency of the scottish people failed and will fail again..
60

TWC,

01/12/2008 10:53:07
65 Nikostratos,,
It is not only SNP who want more power, Mr Darling says Scotland would have a £7.2 Billion defecit so why doesn't he give Scotland Full Fiscal Independence. That would give him £7.2 Billion to spend on the rest of the Union and defeat the SNP Independence claim at the same time.
It is so easy.
61

Number 6,

Germany 01/12/2008 11:03:32
#60 Warden, We all know how limited your knowledge is on
all matters. That being the case, what on earth was your post at number 51 about. Just another childish pathetic swipe at the SNP. Your liebour handlers will be pleased.
62

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01/12/2008 11:03:52
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63

Warden An' All, Reborn,

01/12/2008 11:05:33
66-TWC-Just a thought here, what if Mr Darling actually cared for the well being of the Scottish people. Would it then look worse for a politician to gain brownie points from the suffering of his own people?

64

subrosa,

01/12/2008 11:11:16
# 65

Good morning niko. I see you're in full flow this morning.

'and the term Unionist parties really should be the parties of Democracy within the law and loyalty to the true one and indivisible British nation.'

Really you could do better than the above. Go back under your union jack duvet and have a wee rethink about the word indivisible.
65

Number 6,

Germany 01/12/2008 11:14:27
This is how much Liebour "Care":

THE expert group examining new powers for Holyrood has "tampered with the evidence" to suit the Labour Party, one of its own economic advisers suggested last night.
Professor Andrew Hughes Hallett, one of 11 economics experts tasked with examining tax powers north of the border, said its final report did not have "much legitimacy" because it was skewed towards preserving the status quo.

Hughes Hallett said he had wanted the expert group to look at whether the Scottish Government should be given the power to borrow money but claims this was glossed over in the final report.

He told Scotland on Sunday: "Had it been a criminal issue, you would call it tampering with the evidence by not considering all the options."

Dirty underhand and cheap, there's no other way to describe them, but STILL scottish unionistas, including much of the scottish press, will continue to support this dreadful party.

Only in Scotland would you find so many people who feel they are "Uniquely incapable of looking after their own affairs". How humiliating.

66

Warden An' All, Reborn,

01/12/2008 11:22:23
67-Number 6-I wouldn’t know what you mean about how limited my knowledge is, though I would be interested for you to tell me how limited that is.
If you are right about my knowledge being limited on all matters how would I know? Though in case my knowledge runs a little further than you would like people to believe I will endeavour to enlighten your position. Broadcasting is generally a regional affair within the UK, whereas arms and the legislation would have ramifications for the whole nation.

67

TWC,

01/12/2008 11:22:54
69 Warden An' All, Reborn,
New labour only care about the New Labour party. They are the worst party at Holyrood or Westminster. They have nothing to offer Scotland and they have ruined a great party.
They are allowing SNP to steal all the socialist policies including the Devolution process.
68

Nikostratos,,

01/12/2008 11:23:45
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/01/education/01scotland.html?_r=1&ref=us

Going Off to College for Less (Passport Required)

ST. ANDREWS, Scotland — Isobel Oliphant felt she was making an offbeat choice when she graduated from Fox Lane High School in Bedford, N.Y., and enrolled at the ancient university in this quiet coastal town of stone ruins and verdant golf courses.

I thought I was being original,” said Ms. Oliphant, now in her third year at the University of St. Andrews. “But my high school class president came here, too. And when I got here, it was all ‘Hi, I’m from Massachusetts,’ ‘Hi, I’m from New York.’ ”

St. Andrews has 1,230 Americans among its 7,200 students this year, compared with fewer than 200 a decade ago.

The large American enrollment is no accident. St. Andrews has 10 recruiters making the rounds of American high schools,

Stephen Magee, the vice principal at St. Andrews, sees no problem with admitting Americans who may be marginally less qualified than the European students.

“Am I wrong to say I don’t care if they can’t get into Harvard?” Mr. Magee said. “If a Scottish parent asked why their very talented child did not get in to St. Andrews, when so many Americans did, I would tell them to ask the government, which encourages us to take international students, but caps the number of local students they will pay for.”

Mr. Magee emphasizes that Americans are not displacing homegrown students, since St. Andrews would not be allowed to admit additional applicants from Scotland or England if it cut back American admissions.

"I would tell them to ask the government, which encourages us to take international students, but caps the number of local students they will pay for.”


That's what the snp do for the people of Scotland..


'We're bought and sold for American gold'--
Such a parcel of rogues in the snp!
69

Arfur,

01/12/2008 11:25:28
Who cares, it has been tamper with by the new labour and corruption party. It should flung in the Forth.

Can see it now.

Calman - "so mr brown what do you want me to write in this here document"

Brown - "oh give them some nothing powers"

Calman - "broadcasting"

Brown - "Sound good. Also give them something they have been asking for"

Calman - "control of firearms"

Brown - "Excellent. That will do"

Calman - "Will that be enough to keep them happy?"

Brown - "Your right. Add SOME financial powers"

Calman - "Your going to allow them financial powers?"

Brown - "Well once they have voted for me like the gullible twonks in Glenrothes we will just specify that they can control the tax on highland fudge"

Calman - "Excellent boss. I will get it typed up right away"
70

TWC,

01/12/2008 11:40:51
75 Nikostratos,,

That is bad news
So it grew from 200 to 1200 in ten years while Labour were in power for 9 of those years. I don't really see this as only SNPs problem.
It is unacceptable whoever allows it.
This happened when there were two different university enrolment organisations years ago.
One organisation controlled the Better Uni and one controlled entry to the less prestigious Unis.
You got an offer from the lesser one first because the better ones could be sold to Foreigners.
71

Number 6,

Germany 01/12/2008 11:45:19
#73 Nope, your still clueless. The question was, how would the SNP deal with gun control, you brought the subject up . I fail to see what your drivel is supposed to mean .
72

Warden An' All, Reborn,

01/12/2008 11:48:00
74-TWC-The snp have no interest in devolution as a destination and most people know that.
So new labour only cares about new labour, do you care to elaborate?
They are the worst party at holyrood or Westminster, again please will you elaborate?
They have nothing to offer Scotland and they have ruined a great party, please inform us all your reasoning behind your insights?
73

Warden An' All, Reborn,

01/12/2008 11:56:16
78-Number 6-I think you mean you’re still clueless and not “your still clueless” right.
Your answer to the question would be: badly. There are already problems now, Scotland having separate control will just make it easier to run weapons.

74

Number 6,

Germany 01/12/2008 12:03:33
#80 As you are so fond of asking people for their reasoning, I wonder if you could provide yours, for stating gun control would be worse under the SNP.

Why would it be "easier to run weapons under the SNP".

I hope your labour handler's got an answer in his handbook.
75

Tris,

01/12/2008 12:04:40
#75.... Erm, well, duh....

"1,230 Americans among its 7,200 students this year, compared with fewer than 200 a decade ago."

OK, given that I assume you know that a decade is 10 years....remind me, who was in government for most of that time? Was it:

a) The SNP
b) The Tories
c) The Lovely Labour Party or
d) Little Bo Peep

Answers on a post card.

Honestly, if you want to make a point about how awful the SNPO is, try looking at the facts before you present them.

Muppet.
76

Nikostratos,,

01/12/2008 12:14:42
#82

What no change then eh? we wuz told the snp were for the people of Scotland.
77

Arfur,

01/12/2008 12:24:44
#83 Nikostratos - you are a tool. Take a long look at your argument then go sit in the corner.

Someone please pass the dunce hat to Niko (shakes the head).
78

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 01/12/2008 12:28:21
75/77/82
There is no great mystaery about the number if US students at St Andrews. US students (as with any others outside the EU) pay the full fees (probably well over £10,000 per year)

The University treats non EU students as a source of income to supplement the money it gets from the Scottish Govt. That is why the places taken by US students would not be able to Scottish students.

My son is at St Andrews and he told me that out of the 12 people in his corridor in the hall of residence only 3 come from Scotland. There are students from Canada, Sweden, Hong Kong and the British Virgin Islands in his corridor, 4 from England and one from Wales.
79

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 12:29:42
84 Arfur

"Someone please pass the dunce hat to Niko (shakes the head)"

I'd shake my head if Niko's post was out of character.
As he invariably posts mince, it's a waste of a shake.
80

Rasco,

01/12/2008 12:36:22
What do Gray and Goldie and all unionist think of the report on the BBC about the Breadline Poor Scots over the last four decades.
81

Ugly George,

01/12/2008 12:45:55
88 Buckpool Loon.
"Nu Labour have adopted the policies and positions to the right of the Conservatives in order to get in, then remain in power."

Massive increases in govt spending, increased taxes on those earning over £150,000, taxes on pension funds, insurance premiums, foreign dividends etc.

These can hardly be described as measures to "the right of the Conservatives."

Labour are really just what they have always been - a tax and spend party

82

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/12/2008 12:52:51
88 Buckpool#

More important is that out of the 650 at the next election Scotland will have 2 or 3 Conservative MPs.

That is 2 or 3 MPs out of 650 to fully represent Scotland within the Government!

Democracy?
83

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 12:54:10
Seems like Nick Clegg has blown it bigtime on a flight to Inverness, when he was overheard to slag off individual members of his front bench.

What next, Tavish for Westminster or bring back Charlie K?

http://tinyurl.com/5nzm7s
84

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 12:56:52
#64
Guy Wersh,
eccy byde 01/12/2008 10:45:43

I don't think that the £ STG would qualify to get into the Zimbabwean Dollar group, although Hen Broon is doing his damn best to get us there.
85

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 12:58:58
# 83
Nikostratos,,
01/12/2008 12:14:42

The prize for the most imbecilic post of the day, unless you do some more.
86

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 13:02:55
I see that The Steamie, Scotland's Political Blog (see above) has been underwhelmed by readers interest.

Wonder if they are trying the Herald gambit of withdrawing the raw meat comments facility and substituting the Bowdlerised (joke there) highly controlled and censored comments section?
87

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 01/12/2008 13:04:40
90 Nevski
That is why I feel that a Tory govt is more likely to give Scotland more fiscal powers than a Labour one. The Tories might well say - OK we will give Scotland more fiscal powers on the basis of Scotiish MPs not being able to vote on issues purely affecting England.

This would strengthen their power and weaken Labour's. As I said in an earlier post the Tory minded UK Taxpayers' Alliance has already called for this.

Labour depends too much on the votes of Scottish and Welsh MPS and moves to give either more fiscal responsibility weakens their power base.
88

English Bob,

England 01/12/2008 13:21:11
Any danger of Mc Labour giving any powers to England? Or even recognition?

Zero chance. England to be split into Euro regions against our consent.

I tell you northern chums - there is going to be trouble.
89

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 01/12/2008 13:32:19


The Calman commission is a vehicle for standing still, it is not going anywhere, and we all know it. How long is this farce going to continue.
90

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

01/12/2008 13:35:40
Calman could have been radical in its alternative to independence but it now looks like a damp squib.

What these fools don't understand is that the status quo is not an option - tinkering at the edges is just playing right into the SNP's hands.

It seems to me that Brown thinks that his win in Glenrothes shows a fundamental weakness in support for the SNP - therfore he does not need to pursue the decentralist agenda any further. That is idiocy in my opinion - if he's not careful he is going to drive many of those who do want real further powers for Holyrood into the nationalist camp.

I have said before that there are one set of circumstances where I could see myself voting for independence.

If a simple yes-no vote goes ahead in 2010 (or some other date) and the No campaign indicated that if they win there would be no further dentralisation of power, then I would seriously consider voting yes in a referendum.

It now looks like Calman is going to make that prospect even more likely.
91

The Sprucer,

01/12/2008 13:51:48
Guys,

Can we not react to Rufus because he's clearly just being an annoying tw*t. Ignorance is bliss! Well it certainly is in his case as well.

#97 English Bob, I hope there is. I hope you do get seriously annoyed about this because if we can complain about the Thatcher years here then you have an argument regarding Brown et al. I wish you well in your pursuit of independence. It's only fair on all sides (Northern Ireland and Wales included).
92

Observer. 1,

01/12/2008 13:56:24
''Calman could have been radical in its alternative to independence''

Wishful thinking, as soon as Westminster took control (and they did) any prospect of radical change was neutered straight away.

93

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/12/2008 13:58:00
95 Ugly George#

I think this is the whole point isn't it? Whether the Tories or the Labour party are in power in Westminster it is the right of the Scottish people to assume more powers if that is what they want.

It is not, in my opinion, the right of Westminster to deny the Scots anything they want with regard to consitutional reform especially when the decision affects the future prosperity of the country.

Even unionists must see that Calman is Westminster at work on Scotland and has nothing to do with what the Scots really want!

That decision rests with the head quisling!
94

Number 6,

Germany 01/12/2008 14:00:10
#97 Sorry Bob, no is the answer.Do us all a favour and vote tory down there. This is the best immediate option for both countries.

You get rid of the "Scottish mafia" and we get rid of the biggest obstical to Scottish development.

I can't for the life of me see how things could get any worse under the tories, especially now their Leader has admitted that Scotland could survive on it's own.

If the tories decided to play "hardball"
with Scotland, it will only substantially increase
support for the SNP as Liebour will by then, be reduced to an irrelevance.

The regionilisation of England is a directive that has
come from Europe, and which the Liebour party will be only too happy to implement if it guarantees them a place at the European trough once everywhere south of the border has rejected them.

Much easier to steamroll you into Europe when you have practically no national identity. That's the "Plan".
95

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/12/2008 14:11:05
105 sm753#

'Any major changes requiring alteration of the Scotland Act would need to be done at Westminster'

Really? What insight (as usual) you offer us all sm753 pugwash, astonishing!

Prosperity comes with having the correct decisions made in your own country for the long term benefit of you own country and not 500 miles away in a country with a vastly different economy and priorities.

Constitutional issue? I think so!
96

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 14:17:14
"likely to be declared illegal by the EU in near future."

Erm no. It was the EU that ruled that English students had to pay. Sorry. Only students from a DIFFERENT COUNTRY didn't pay. We are still one country.

In other words - come independence you'll get it for nowt.
97

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 14:17:42
108 for janeshore and tuition fees.
98

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 14:19:31
"Really? Well, the decisions affecting me are made in my country. The UK."

... and a right old hash they're making of it.
99

Observer. 1,

01/12/2008 14:21:17
''Its revolting crypto racism''

That's revolting faux outrage and a lie.
100

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/12/2008 14:27:24
107 sm753#

Will be a bit of a problem for you then losing an identity after independence. I won't lose anything as i have always considered myself a Scot and not British. But for you, well, bit of a problem really!

Of course types like you will jump the fence quickly just as the Tories have done with devolutiion.
101

Auntie Annabel,

01/12/2008 14:33:46
Hello possums, Auntie Annabel loves you all. xxx

http://advancedmediawatch.blogspot.com/2008/11/look-its-auntie-annabel-on-blog.html
102

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 01/12/2008 14:38:44
114 Dropped the charge of revolting crypto racism then have we ?

The position was explained to you at post 108.
103

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 14:40:39
111

"Cite a reference please"

Google it yourself - here's a clue:-

"European law allows variation within nations but not between them."

or ...

"Students from the rest of the European Union, however, won't pay a bean, under bizarre EU rules that permit for discrimination within a nation but not between nations."

(Telegraph)
104

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 14:43:00
From Tuition Fees Europe (www.cesifo-group.de/DocCIDL/dicereport407-db5.pdf)

"Scotland: Tuition fees are paid by the Student
Awards Agency. For Scottish students and
EU-foreigners the fees are paid in full (depending
on income) and in part (depending on
income) in the other parts of the United
Kingdom."

105

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/12/2008 14:48:55
115 sm#

There is no doubt whatsoever the independence will happen and well you know it.

That's the difference, nationalist have never changed one iota in their beliefs while yours are gradually fading into the distance.

What happened to all the anti-devolution Tories? They are now among the parliaments staunchest defenders aren't they? They even want more powers, amazing, who would have thought.

Just shown you how wrong unionists can be.

The only thing that has been blown apart is the economy of you uk matey!
106

Number 6,

Germany 01/12/2008 14:54:34
Good grief unionistas, try and bring some facts to the table at least. There must be something accurate in your handler's handbooks surely.

They may need updating judging by the drivel your all posting.
107

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 14:55:38
Hansard explanation.

"However, in respect of the decision taken on university funding, the cost of the change that the Scottish Executive have made will have to be met by the Scottish Executive; it is not met by United Kingdom taxpayers. The Scottish Executive have a block grant; they now have to find offsetting savings from elsewhere to carry through the policy that they have announced."
108

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/12/2008 14:55:53
123 sm753#

Keep wriggling sm753...no ruling just a general rule..mmm...indeed.

Try removing your foot from your gob next time, crypto-eejit!
109

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 01/12/2008 15:01:00
128 Stop digging you are nearly in Australia.
110

Observer. 1,

01/12/2008 15:01:37
130 resort to abuse = lost argument.
111

Alan B,

01/12/2008 15:02:04
#sm753

I think your posts are bit irrational and to some extent your own view of Britain and Scotland rather than what is closer to what the people of scotland in general think.

""Prosperity comes with having the correct decisions made in your own country for the long term benefit of you own country"

Really? Well, the decisions affecting me are made in my country. The UK."

So do you not recognise Scotland as your country. That is the implication of what you say. The idea of having the tools of economic mgt within the scottish parliament is to try to transform scotland poor economic growth.

That does not necessarily mean independence but it can be argued be done via devolution of the tools of economic mgt.

"If you want any changes made quickly, they can only be relatively small ones."

It is noticable you do not even try to justify that remark. For a start we have had devolution for 10yrs that is hardly talking about making change quickly.

The fact is it is quite straight forward if you want to change the powers held by the scottish parliament. Where is the difficulty in :

1)devolving firearms
2)devolving transport fully rather than the fudged mess
3)devolving more round law and order to sort out the fudged mess.
4)devolving running scottish elections that is even what labour own report into its own shambles of running an election said/
5)allowing the sp government to be called government as per much weaker welsh exec now government
6)having devolution of broadcasting as per original plans for devolution before being pulled in case it encouraged indpendence
7)devolving civil service like NI rather than the current mess. Brown ordering whitehall not to cooperate with scottish civil service but still controlling a devolved parliament civil service. I mean that is idiotic.
8)allowing scotland to decide casios etc in scotland.
9)allowing scottish parliament to decide nuclear for electricity.


All of these would be very straight forwa
112

TWC,

01/12/2008 15:02:11
79 Warden An' All, Reborn,

My case is proven by the lack of policies put forward by Labour, they don't have any and I notice once again you ask everyone else to elaborate but you propose nothing..
Their only claim was Calman was going to give an independent opinion and that has proved false.
Mugabe & Brown have become so similar
Dictators
Economy in ruins
Meddling with reporting
Imprisoning Opposition MPs

Labour are a busted flush
113

Alan B,

01/12/2008 15:02:23
...
All of these would be very straight forward and easy. And hardly contentuous for the rest of the uk.

On finance the big one again the current arrangements with barnett cause more trouble in england that fiscal autonomy. Would any country in the uk be bothered if scotland had fiscal autonomy. No.

As such your argument does not make sense. It is more that you see britain as your country primarily and not scotland and you want britain run on a centralised basis without strong regional parliaments that would take over much of the powers of central government. You possibly fear that if more devolution is good for scotland then that could lead to independence. As such you tend to advocate poor goverance of scotland so we remain in the uk rather than good governance as it could see us leave.
114

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/12/2008 15:02:29
sm753#

'It is discrimination against a minority on the basis of their place of origin'

In that case we can all do away with passports and open the gates as that too could be called 'crypto-racist'?

Great logic, great mind, good grief!
115

Alan B,

01/12/2008 15:13:24
#sm753

How in any way with any logic can you possibly say that it is " crypto-racist then and it is crypto-racist " to charge english students fees. That is completely illogical.

The facts are scotland and england can determine whether their own students have to pay tution fees. England at westminster and scotland via the scottish parliament.

England choose to have tution fees for its students and scotland does not. Yes there is a democratic deficits by scottish mps voting on england matters and that is why fiscal autonomy and the ban on scottish mps voting on english matters is needed as a matter of urgency.

But with the current arrangements scotland gets its budget from westmisnter based roughtly being 1/10 the size. That budget is to pay for stuff like nhs and education in scotland.

Off course with england deciding to have tution fees the scottih budget gets squeezed becuase of the nature of barnett.

It would be therefore completely daft for scotland to pay for english students. This would lead to the racist situation as you would call it of scottish students studying in england paying for their tution while students from both england and scotland get it paid for in scotland.

It would also mean that the proportionally smaller scottish budget meant for scotttihs education goes to pay for english students studying in scotland. Even if england did pay tution fees that would be daft and england would only have to pay the much smaller portionate number of scottish students.

The eu rules are daft too and are probably the real reason implemented tution fees.

The best way would be if countries paid for the course fees of their own students no matter where they studied or alternatively let their own students pay (or made some sort of contribution). It really should be left up to the country of that student.
116

Number 6,

Germany 01/12/2008 15:21:44
#sm753,
How would you describe England's attitude towards the Scottish pound.

In case your handlers have not explained the situation,
your fellow "brits" refuse to accept the Scottish pound in their economy.

How would you react if the SNP called for a boycott amongst traders of the english pound ?.

Is this policy "Crypto-racist ?.
117

the.ally ,

max. 01/12/2008 15:28:08
The Calman commission, set up and functioned by the New Labour political party, ended up being just that; a New Labour political party commission. Another Hutton, et-al whitewash scenario that has given hundreds of thousands of taxpayers hard-earned cash to New Labour sycophants and apologists, (for their turdships).

Now, considering this 'so-called' commission has all these troughist sycophant turds that make up their numbers, they were always going to try and pull the wool over Scotland's eyes. I'm very proud to say the SNP Scottish government didn't participate in or with-in, any way, this ridiculous and troughist 'commission'.

"Get Them Oot'a Here, They're A Calmanity"
118

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/12/2008 15:29:12
144 sm753#

How can you belong to one country in the whole part and the other in a part part?

Which part is the whole part and out of the part part which is the most important part..or are they all equal parts of a part?
119

the.ally ,

max. 01/12/2008 15:29:22
Can someone please post the names and adresses of the Calmanity commission members.

I know they've all got families; hopefully some in Scotland!
120

the.ally ,

max. 01/12/2008 15:30:24
Nevsky, nice one.
121

Number 6,

Germany 01/12/2008 15:35:53
#145 What am I driviling on about ?

You can't be that stupid, can you ?.
122

Number 6,

Germany 01/12/2008 15:35:54
#145 What am I driviling on about ?

You can't be that stupid, can you ?.
123

Alan B,

01/12/2008 15:36:52
#142 sm753

But you have not dealth with any of the issues i raised.

1) It is daft the eu rules that countries have to pay for the students from another country. It effectively pushes countries to introduce tution fees. As i said i think this was one of the main driving forses behind labour uturning so much and introducing them.

Why should say belgium if it wants to pay for the tution fees of its students have to pay for the tution fees of other countries who choose through there democractic systems not to pay for student tutions fees and hence charge their own students.

I am pro eu but this is an example of one of their daft ideas that is unworkable unless you view as a centralising mechanism via the back door of pushing all countries to charge tution fees.

For a small country like belgium it may completely unaffordable to pay for german and french students.

2)you ignored within scotland the budget arrangements. Barnett does not give scotland money to pay for english students. Barnett gives scotland money based roughly on size (with some extra tagged on.)

It would be silly for a scottish budget 1/10 the size of the english budget to be used to pay for english students when england decide not to pay for english students themselves.

Also you ignore the issue other issue of what would happen if scotland paid for english student. Who would pay for scottish students in england. England? No so that would be very unfair and discriminatory. If the scottish budget was to be used it would make alot more sense to contribution scottish students studying in england than english students studying in scotland which is something for the english budget if they wish to spend it that way.


124

Alan B,

01/12/2008 15:41:32
#144 sm753

It is you that seems confused. Read your own posts.

You asked a poster what constitution changes had to do with properity. He gave the obviuous answer:

"Prosperity comes with having the correct decisions made in your own country for the long term benefit of you own country" (meaning scotland as the country)

you then said your country was the uk.

As such you seem very muddle and confused in your argument.

You knew clearly the poster was advocating devolution of powers as a way to improve scotland economic performance. But you in your response said the uk was your country with no mention of scotland. As such you failed to address the issue with your almost glib response.
125

Annabel Lecter,

Borough Briggs, Elgin 01/12/2008 15:43:56
I am not amused. I was looking forward to seeing the laddies in their sports kit.
126

Annabel Lecter,

Borough Briggs, Elgin 01/12/2008 15:46:34
I am not amused. I was looking foward to seeing those fit young men in their sports kit.

127

Warden An' All, Reborn,

01/12/2008 15:48:26
81-Number 6-Reasoning 101 for number 6-Local jurisdiction works very well on local issues, but nationally a coordinated response is necessary for effectiveness. To regionalise a system then within a nation is to reduce the effectiveness of the system already in place. It has nothing to do with the snp as such, but by the fact they are in government at present. By the same reasoning to move weapons from one jurisdiction to another where there is no jurisdiction will slow any response to the threat. Though as the snp want to regionalise the UK while still within the UK you could say they are purposely creating a situation which will bring about slower response times on these dangerous occurrences.

128

Alan B,

01/12/2008 15:51:15
#sm753

Look at a basic example:

Country A 1,000 student studying in Country B
Country B 10,000 student studying in country A

Country B is 10 times the size of country A.

Both countries have to pay for tution fees of students studying in there own country including those originally for the other country. Assume both countries are similar wealth per person.

This would mean the smaller country A with 10% of the wealth adn hence tax revenues would have to pay for 10 times as many students from the other country B.

What if the larger country then decides to stop paying tution fees for students and hence does not pay for country A 1000 students or its own domestic students. Say this increases students from country B by 5000 studying in A. Then the smaller country A has to pay for 15,000 students from country B and country B pays for no students from country A.

It is barking mad.

129

Alan B,

01/12/2008 16:12:23
#sm753

Are you being daft. You are simply not responding to the issues I have raised.

The best system is quite simply for the country of origin to pay for the tution fee or not of their own students. That is based on morals and as far as i can see common sense. The eu could force countries to ensure a german student studying in france is given the same money as a german student studying in germany.

Take what your are proposing that the scottish budget is used to pay for english students in scotland and look at it sensibly from what you would say is a moral stand point:

1)barnett would have to be changed to set the budget for that purpose.
2)england would have to use their budget to pay for scottish students. Otherwise that would be racist in your terminology and completely unfair.

The result the only people not getting their tution paid would be english students studying in england. And is that not unfair.


130

Alan B,

01/12/2008 16:13:50
#sm753

It would be more disgusting if scottish students had to pay for fees in england but english student got their fees paid by the scottish budget.

That would be racist and down right wrong.
131

Alan B,

01/12/2008 16:14:57
#sm753

Are you suggesting england should pay tution for scottish students or are you only wanting scotland to pay for english students?
132

the.ally ,

max. 01/12/2008 16:19:36
sado, you said, "So money is more important than morals, Alan?"

Why don't you ask laughing-boy Brown-the-Clown? He, his wife the Glenrothes unelected New Labour campaigner and Alice-der-Dorkling seem to think so!
133

the.ally ,

max. 01/12/2008 16:22:08
Sado, you said, "So money is more important than morals, Alan?"

Why don't you ask laughing-boy Brown-the-Clown and Alice-der-Dorkling that question?

He, his wife, the Glenrothes unelected New Labour campaigner, and Alice all seem to thibnk so.
134

Geoff,

sa 01/12/2008 16:31:04
99 The federalist-good post and one with which I identify strongly. One sided bodies such as Calman are a waste of time. The Constitutional structure of the United Kingdom needs to be radically overhauled and this excercise needs to involve the broadest possible range of opinion from all shades of nationalist and unionist thinking. Nothing(within reason) should be left off the table. Such a Constitutional Conference would have wide credibility and would focus on sorting out the half baked hotch potch created by Labours "Devolution Settlement". At present we have a Westminster Parliament that doubles up as the Parliament of the UK and a kind of ad hoc English parliament,a Scottish Parliament with 'half powers'-ready made for conflict,a Welsh assembly that is well-what?, and an NI Assembly that is sort of in between. Total f*** up!
In simple terms what is needed is something along the lines of the US constitution, a system that gives very considerable regional powers but with a strong central government-strong in the areas where it makes sense to centralise. In addition at the end of such a Commission, the "Home" countries should be given the option of Independence as an alternative to the proposed new setup.
I am sure that the above would create a new modern United kingdom. The alternative is to muddle along with our unwritten mess of a "Constitution" and inevitably drift into a bitter and messy breakup.
That would be sad
135

Truely English,

01/12/2008 16:32:53
There is no need for any extra powers as it will only cost us all more money. We are a united country with the same language and culture, why would anyone want to splinter what is already working into small state-lets.

England is Scotland's best friend and vice-versa as it should be considering all our peoples went through over the past 300 plus years.

Scottish people made large fortunes from the Empire, indeed it could be said the Scots ran everything in many parts of Africa and Asia.

Be proud to be British as most Scots are.
136

the.ally ,

max. 01/12/2008 16:45:03
Truely English, your post is, at least, some-what niave, and astoundingly so, but at most dis-honest, and derisable. What in history have you forgot?

Ok, let's try 1000 years of English oppression of the Scots. You just need to read the Declaration of Arbroath to see the Scots did not make war on England, but, and rather, England made several wars on Scotland.

Then there was Darien, a complete and dis-honest dastardlt scheme to force a 'union'.

Since the so-called 'union of parliaments acts', as you say 300 years ago, there has been the 'Highland clearances', and the Lowland clearances, of which the English parliament ordered murder, rape, and inconsequently genocide of clanships in Scotland. Then there were the functional stripping away of the Scots tartan, sword/arms etc. Bringing it up to date, how about the lies told by westminster about McCrone, Barnett, and Scotish oil?

You are living in a fantasy world English.

Scotland demands independence; and Scotland will be independent regardless if England likes it or not.

Vote SNP for a Better, fairer Independent Scotland.
137

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 16:50:35
My daughter studied in England and I had to pay her tuition fees; quite steep!
138

Observer. 1,

01/12/2008 16:55:43
167 English students are not being discriminated against by the Scottish Executive/ Government.

Different funding arrangements are in place, as per the Scotland Act. That is entirely lawful.

In case you haven't noticed discriminating against people is illegal.

If you want parity with Scotland in terms of student funding arrangements, see your MP, don't make posts distorting the position on here.
139

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 16:55:52
Empire Loyalist No 273


"Bringing it up to date, how about the lies told by westminster about McCrone, Barnett, and Scotish oil?"

No-one ever told a "lie" about the profoundly dull and banal McCrone paper.

THEY BURIED IT

Lies by omission?
140

Truely English,

01/12/2008 17:01:05
168
the.ally ,max
Was it not the Scots themselves who both set the Highland Clearances in motion and carried them out with the help of Patrick Sellar who I understand was from the North-East of Scotland among many others like Lady Cathcart.

Was it not the Scottish people who set up Private/Public Schools in Scotland so that they could get rid of all traces of having a Scottish accent so that they could join in the economic bounty that was the British Empire. Did the English insist this should happen? Of course not.

Maybe having a deeper knowledge of Scottish History would help when it is discussed.

The Lowlanders and the Highlanders both stripped away all that was different from Scotland thankfully and assimilated into being British in every way possible.

Of course the Scots can wear a Kilt just as I can and be as British as you like.
141

TWC,

01/12/2008 17:01:36
Let's agree on one thing, if Scotland soes not get Fiscal Autonomy it will vote for Independence.
Since all the Unionists claim we would have a deficit then there should be no problem in letting us do it.
I'd rather have less money and be in control than the status quo.
(nb I do not for one minute think we would be worse off)
142

Alan B,

01/12/2008 17:06:48
#janeshore

So what would your solution be?

I do not think it is discriminatory for england from their budget their own students where ever they choose to study or not pay tution fees if that is what they want democratically. (i am aware of the democratic deficit with scottish mps voting on english matters).

In reverse it makes sense for the scottish budget to be spent on scottish students. I would support tht money being available no matter the country that that studennt chooses to study in.

It does not make sense for a scottish budget to pay for english students studying in scotland while the english budget does not pay for scottish students.

It also does not make sense when the scottish budget is set at a uk levels largely on population basis (with some other factors aswell). So the scottish budget cut already as england does not want tution fees for its students, has to then cover english students aswell. A scottish budget would have to be set to take that into account to be fair. And that would open another can of worms as pointed out above.
143

Alan B,

01/12/2008 17:11:44
#janeshore

Further more. If england has a budget for its students and scotland has a budget for its students it would make sense, if the english budget was used to pay for the tution fees of english students choosing to study in scotland. With the sheer difference in size between the countries that is the most feasible solution.

Problem is england does not want to use its budget to pay for tution fees of english students in england far less those studying in scotland.

As such the problem is one really caused by England and its democratic choice to charge tution fees to both scottish and english student studying in england.
144

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 01/12/2008 17:13:24
A headline on today's BBC Scotland webpage:

ONE THIRD OF SCOTS BREADLINE POOR

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7750728.stm

Perhaps the numerous anti Scottish, unionist cretons who frequent these posts could explain why a country rich in Oil and Gas, Whisky and Tourism, to name only 4 big money earners, should have ONE THIRD of its population on the Breadline?????

And why for that matter does the so called national newspaper of Scotland, the so called Scotsman, not have this as it's lead story of the month, never mind the day????
145

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 01/12/2008 17:20:15
182 Jeezo, that was explained to you at post 108. EU rules do not recognise England as being a distinct country within the EU separate from Scotland.

146

Alan B,

01/12/2008 17:23:35
#janeshore

I have already said it is a completely daft EU rule that forces one member state to pay for students of other member states. I have also said I think it is back door eu policy for harmonise all students paying fees.

So I am in agreement with you there. Countries should pay for the students of their own country. I would like that money to be available for the student to study in any country within the eu, if that country democratically chooses to pay its students fees.

But we are talking about how to deal with the situation where the uk is a single member state and scotland gets an assigned budget based largely on population from westminster.

And it would be daft for the scottish budget to pay for english students studying in scotland and not have the english budget pay for scottish students studying in england. That is completely discriminatory.

Due to the sheer differences in sizes of the country it makes sense for England to uses it education budget to pay the fees of english students in scotland if it so wishes via the democratic mechanisms of the country.

I think an independent scotland within the eu would have no choice but to bring in tution fees of some decription.
147

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 17:28:59
It's all so simple really

SCOTS STUDENT STUDYING IN ENGLAND OR WALES OR NI

"Course fees are variable up to £3,000 and are the same as those paid by English students."

So why should students from England, Wales or NI get their fees paid here?

Fees for English, Welsh or NI students studying here are £1,700 per annum. Maybe they should be paying £3,000.
148

Alan B,

01/12/2008 17:29:50
#janeshore

You still have not said what you would do and the implications of that.

You cannot change EU law that was daftly accepted by the UK government.

So by implication you think the scottish budget should pay for english students studying in scotland.

Would england agree therefore to pay for scottish students studying in england? If they do not then it would be barking for the scottish government to pay for english students in scotland and completely discriminatory.

Given that barnett asigned money for scottish education etc largely based on population are you advocating changing barnett to take account of this arrangement.
149

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 17:30:57
Better idea. Invest in youth - invest in education. Make it free for all as it was in the "good old days (pre-decimal if you want to know).
150

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 17:34:09
"Scottish students are to get taxpayer funded grants unavailable to their English counterparts.

Every part-time student living in Scotland earning less than £18,000 will receive £500 - but those born in England will get nothing."

(thisislondon.co.uk)
151

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 17:36:30
194 Spook the cheeky young puppy (3-3 ha ha ha)

"Did they have bunsen burners when you were at School"

Yes they did Spook. We used them to warm up our slates on a cold winter's morning. Sometimes to annoy the teacher, we'd burn our quills.
152

Alan B,

01/12/2008 17:36:32
#janeshore

Also you see adverts on tv from time to time regarding government paid training and then it says for england only.

I do not think that is discriminatory against scotland as it is obviously being paid for by the english assinged budget.
153

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 01/12/2008 17:36:48
.. the people who matter in Britain

Government of the people by the people for the people was a new and revolutionary concept for Europeans though not unknown to other humanity. I venture this is at the core of Scots' aspirations to reintegrate our divided land as a Nation.

How fared the American experiment? It's questionable. The 20th century was largely ruled by powerful dynastic european families. The USSR was always a bankers' paradise never a workers'; funded, fed and tooled by the USA. China emerges as the new world power.

An independent nation-state? The mechanism of the British Establishment is always set against it, and the Prime Minister will be granted whatever dictatorial powers. Already, elected MPs, however talented and principled, have negligible influence.

It's up to we the people.
154

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 17:36:48
200 to annoy Spook who's going for it.
155

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 17:36:49
200 to annoy Spook who's going for it.
156

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 17:46:36
janeshore

"I'm not The Master, Vimto, Lia"

How do you know about Lia? Nobody mentioned her.
157

Truely English,

01/12/2008 17:47:40
Scottish people are indeed fortunate to be British as they have many freedoms and advantages other countries and people would like to have.
They have the English language which is spoken all over the world and is increasing in number and locations. British values and culture are spreading to all corners of the globe rapidly to the extent that if you speak English there is a welcome everywhere for you.
Even in China and India you will have little difficulty in making yourself understood.
We live in an ever smaller world and British people should be proud of the fact that they helped to create it and are at the forefront of this mighty revolution.
158

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 17:48:05
Spook

"lol.Blimey did they not teach you anything at School ? Feathers are highly flammable."

Correct. I learned the hard way that inflamable is not the opposite of flammable.

Oh well....
159

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 17:48:42
206

Too many happy pills there matey!
160

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 17:55:48
209

Another moniker of the Master? Why would anyone want more than one moniker?
161

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 17:56:34
EDINBURGH CITY ROCKS!

3-3

WHAT A COMEBACK!
162

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 17:56:45
WHO MISSED A SITTER?
163

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 18:02:51
Detol does not protect, and that is a FACT!
164

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 18:05:02
#193
Hugh Roscombe,
01/12/2008 17:30:57

It that was when the Beatles were in Black & White?
165

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 18:09:57
191
Alan B,
01/12/2008 17:29:50
#janeshore

You still have not said what you would do and the implications of that.

You cannot change EU law that was daftly accepted by the UK government.

They did not and as I said earlier my daughter studied in England and I got whacked on fees and top ups from Oxford.

Should have studied at Caledonian McBrains like Jackie Baillie and got a degree in nuclear physics with needle work. Nothing wrong with that!
166

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 18:18:39
218

Just trawling the archives.
167

Scunnert,

01/12/2008 18:38:31
How to Combat a Banking Crisis: First, Round Up the Pessimists

Latvian Agents Detain a Gloomy Economist; 'It Is a Form of Deterrence'

By ANDREW HIGGINS

RIGA, Latvia -- Hammered by economic woe, this former Soviet republic recently took a novel step to contain the crisis. Its counterespionage agency busted an economist for being too downbeat.

"All I did was say what everyone knows," says Dmitrijs Smirnovs, a 32-year-old university lecturer detained by Latvia's Security Police. The force is responsible for hunting down spies, terrorists and other threats to this Baltic nation of 2.3 million people and 26 banks.

Now free after two days of questioning, Mr. Smirnovs hasn't been charged. But he is still under investigation for bad-mouthing the stability of Latvia's banks and the national currency, the lat. Investigators suspect him of spreading "untruthful information." They've ordered him not to leave the country and seized his computer.

tinyurl.com/57sy4q
168

karin.m,

01/12/2008 18:48:50
a christmas carol for the unionists............


While speakers watched
Their shares take flight
All seated on the right
The policemen of the met came round
and shone their torch around

"Fear not," they said,
For mighty dread
Had seized the labour mind
"Great news i bring
To you and all your kind,




"To you in londons
Town this day
weve found the leaking swine
The Savior wont be broon or mandelson
cos they insist its fine...........

169

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 18:50:10
McCrone saga

"It was a document that could have changed the course of Scottish history. Nineteen pages long, Written in an elegant, understated academic hand by the leading Scottish economist Gavin McCrone, presented to the Cabinet office in April 1975 and subsequently buried in a Westminster vault for thirty years. It revealed how North Sea oil could have made an independent Scotland as prosperous as Switzerland."
170

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 18:53:29
Oxford Fees 2008/09 = £3145

Cambridge Fees 2008/09 = £3,883

171

karin.m,

01/12/2008 18:56:05
224 sm 7and a half

your not allowed to mention the mcrone report without providing a link.


http://www.snp-bannockburn.org/scotlands-oil.pdf

here you go sm save you the bother i have a few more if you would like them.
172

karin.m,

01/12/2008 18:57:10
heres another one.


http://www.clydebanksnp.org/pdf/outline.pdf
173

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 19:03:15
Empire Loyalist No #222

"And your point is caller?
174

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 19:18:06
sm753

I take it all back. You are AM2. Same statistics - same childish put-downs when you're losing either an argument or the plot. Begone with you.
175

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 19:19:10
Every Unis gives bursaries. Yer a blowhard.
176

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 19:19:29
Every Uni even.

:-(
177

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 19:19:43
Empire Loyalist at
# 231 and 232

Look at accommodation costs.


And bursaries.

What is your point?
178

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 19:24:28
236

Best ignore - it's AM2 back from the dead.
179

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 19:26:08
236

The IS no point - that's his point - to steer posters away from the article. It's an AM2 thing.
180

the.ally ,

max. 01/12/2008 19:41:19
First of all, Sado-the-Masochist, fock-off and suck yer plums; nae-bodie's talkin' tae you, tiwat.

Now that Sado's been truely englished;
Truely English # 174, you said, "Was it not the Scots themselves who both set the Highland Clearances in motion and carried them out with the help of Patrick Sellar'. To answer your question, NO. Englishman Cumberlan, with the orders from English parliament set about a schorched earth policy in Scotland murdering children, women, and men. The English Cumberland ordered his English garrsion to rape, pilage, and burn the houses down; Sellar was only a 'land-lord' for an English so-called gent.

You also said, "Was it not the Scottish people who set up Private/Public Schools in Scotland so that they could get rid of all traces of having a Scottish accent so that they could join in the economic bounty that was the British Empire." Again the answer is NO. CAN YOU NOT EVEN GET THE GUFF-BLUFF GAME RIGHT YOU CRETIN. WHAT ARE THEY PAYING YOU FOR, YOU'RE CR'AP AT THIS GAME.

Then you said, "Maybe having a deeper knowledge of Scottish History would help when it is discussed."
Now, you have to excuse me for a minute, I'm rolling around the floor laughing; you are stipid and funny; typical New Labour activist/astroturfer.

"The Lowlanders and the Highlanders both stripped away all that was different from Scotland thankfully and assimilated into being British in every way possible."
Now yer bein' imbecilic; see answers above cretin.

Last but not least, you said, "Of course the Scots can wear a Kilt just as I can and be as British as you like." Aye well, i would like to be non-british, in-deed only Scottish. And we dinnae need yer permission tae wear kilts. Dae yoo lot still dance aroond poles?
Fockin' sex-mad loonies.

Aye, ye've been allymaxed!
181

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 19:45:39
238

I never thought of him or it as alive or dead.

More like a low level program android; no permission to think and preloaded with keich
182

the.ally ,

max 01/12/2008 19:45:40
THE CALMAN COMMISSION;
Get Them Oot'a Here, They're a Calmanity!!
183

Scunnert,

01/12/2008 19:45:41
Irish parliament clears path to new Lisbon referendum
Published: Friday 28 November 2008
An all-party parliamentary report published in Dublin yesterday cleared the way for a re-run of the failed 12 June Lisbon Treaty referendum in Ireland, which threw the Union into crisis.

"No legal obstacle appears to exist to having a referendum either on precisely the same issue as that dealt with on June 12 or some variation thereof," said the report, by an Irish parliamentary sub-committee looking at the country's future in the EU.

The report warned that the position of Ireland has been diminished since 12 June and that the country could suffer serious economic consequences as a result of the negative vote on the Union's reform treaty.

Significantly, the report warns that other EU countries are likely to develop a mechanism to allow them to move forward - without Ireland - with the reforms envisaged by the treaty.

tinyurl.com/57zbm8
184

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 19:52:24
£STG heading south big fashion

This must be characterised as a run, not a readjustment.

Down 5p the US $ and 3p on the €

Brown really is working miracles.

Dive, Dive, Dive!

Tinfoil helmets on!
185

the.ally ,

max. 01/12/2008 19:54:12
Scotland WILL be independent; the Scottish government WILL bring a referendum to the Scottish people for indepndence; and there's nothing Brown-the-Clown can do about it.

When we're independent all the english crown staffers will have to pledge allegiance to the sovereign nation of Scotland, not the englsi crown. If not, then angiolini and all her nasty evil bottom-feeder coppers, sheriffs etc will be thrown out of Scotland.

It's time to step up the activities of getting independence; more Scottish National political activists please.

Scotland has a 'criminal' justice system; OFFICIAL, SEE THE IPCC WEBSITE, AND THE SCOTSMAN/HERALD ONLINE NEWS STORIES FOR SATURDAY 29th NOVEMBER 2008.
allymax.
186

Scunnert,

01/12/2008 19:57:04
Divided Parliament approves EU Blue Card system
Published: Friday 21 November 2008

Despite divisions among political groups, the European Parliament yesterday backed the EU's 'Blue Card' scheme aimed at attracting high-skilled immigrants to Europe.

tinyurl.com/5jbukz
187

the.ally ,

max. 01/12/2008 19:59:45
I'LL BE BACK.
allymax.

Independence for Scotland;
angiolini and her english crown staffers out!
Go now angiolini ans her flying monkeys coppers etc, ye'r seat in the house of turds awaits you for your service to the english crown.;evil traitors that yoos are.
188

Scunnert,

01/12/2008 20:06:14
From Times Online
December 1, 2008
Jose Manuel Barroso says 'people who matter' in Britain rethinking euro

The President of the European Commission said that the global financial crisis strengthened the case for British membership of the euro

Philip Webster, Political Editor
Is Gordon brown's position on the euro shifting? That was the intriguing question raised today after Europe's top official suggested yesterday that "the people who matter" were having second thoughts about Britain's long-held opposition to single currency membership.

Downing Street was swift to stamp on the idea that the Government's position had changed. "Our position has not changed. We have no plans to join the euro, " Mr Brown's spokesman said this morning.

But who has been talking to Jose Manuel Barroso, President of the European Commission? He told French radio that the UK is "closer than ever before" to entering the single currency, because of the fallout from the global financial crisis.

He said that "people who matter in Britain are currently thinking about" membership, adding that the country was sufficiently pragmatic to drop its traditional hostility to the currency if there was a strong economic case.

"I'm not going to break the confidentiality of certain conversations, but some British politicians have already told me: 'If we had the euro, we would have been better off'," Mr Barroso said in an interview.
189

Scunnert,

01/12/2008 20:08:08
From The Sunday Times
November 30, 2008
No 10 blocks inquiries into suspect donation

Jon Ungoed-Thomas
THE ELECTORAL Commission is to investigate whether Ed Balls worked for Gordon Brown while on the payroll of a charity before becoming an MP - possibly in breach of electoral law.

For more than six months, the Cabinet Office and the Treasury have stonewalled Conservative demands to reveal whether Balls held a security pass to government buildings while working for the Smith Institute in 2004 and 2005. Last week Balls, who is now education secretary, also declined to answer the question.

190

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 01/12/2008 20:10:16
We don't qualify for the eurozone, don't meet the economic tests. Unless the goalposts have been shifted.
191

Scunnert,

01/12/2008 20:10:45
From The Times
November 30, 2008
You're off your heads, Tory peer tells advocates of greater tax powers

Lorraine Davidson
The former Scottish Secretary Michael Forsyth made a scathing attack yesterday on the Calman Commission's investigation into extra powers for the Scottish Parliament, claiming that those pursuing the notion were “off their heads”.
192

Scunnert,

01/12/2008 20:12:09
From Times Online
December 1, 2008
London Scottish Bank collapses

Robin Pagnamenta
London Scottish Bank, the lender which specialises in customers with poor credit histories, plunged into administration this morning after regulators stopped the group from accepting customer deposits.
193

Scunnert,

01/12/2008 20:15:02
252 Observer. 1, Glasgow 01/12/2008 20:10:16

There are no rules. Consider the Irish referendum on the Lisbon treaty. Consider the Lloyds takeover of HBoS. No rules. All gone.
194

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 01/12/2008 20:16:47
255 - what's in it for them ?
195

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 20:23:39
Observer. 1,
Glasgow 01/12/2008 20:10:16

We soon will not conform to the requirements of the Zimbabwean $ but through Hell and highwater Gordon, Savious of The Universe, will take us there.
196

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 01/12/2008 20:27:35
258 We are an economic basket case. So why would anyone want us ?
197

Scunnert,

01/12/2008 20:29:02
256 - Them? Do you mean the EU? The UK entering the eurozone would extend the power and influence of the ECB. What's in it for the UK? A more stable currency? Take a look at the exchange rate GBP - Euro.

tinyurl.com/c4o2n
198

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 01/12/2008 20:37:29
So - they take us on to extend their influence (although they would be taking a risk and we are not exactly popular) and we join because of the dive in the £.

Plausible.

But there would be a lot of opposition.
199

Scunnert,

01/12/2008 20:42:06
260 - Broon is against Mandelson is for. Who is more powerful?
200

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 01/12/2008 20:46:57
The divine Mandy
201

Scunnert,

01/12/2008 20:47:30
I think this is a trial balloon sent up by Barroso and Mandelson.
202

Scunnert,

01/12/2008 20:48:22
Peter Mandelson facing questions about claim that UK will join euro

Britain is "closer than ever before" to giving up the pound for the euro, the president of the European Commission has said, sparking speculation that Peter Mandelson is pushing for membership of the single currency.

tinyurl.com/5qq79u

203

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 20:49:45
#258

For our European asset of oil?
204

Scunnert,

01/12/2008 20:51:51
265 Fred Quimby, 01/12/2008 20:49:45

They can faux cough.
205

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 01/12/2008 20:53:22
265 Which is actually ours, not Mandy's to play with. He'd carve us up into little portions and sell us off piecemeal if it enriched him. Oops.
206

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 20:56:52
now waken up and smell the coffee
207

Scunnert,

01/12/2008 20:57:30
Ah'm aff - nighty night.
208

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 01/12/2008 21:01:22
Well, fun and games ahead then if that is the plan. Civil disobedience is fun, just don't get in the way of the horses.
209

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 21:05:33
sm753 (AM2)

"However I share with him the basic ability to find and use basic stats and sources, which you apparently can't.
That's an observation, not a childish put-down."

Actually it's a lie. You reject anything that doesn't fit with your cringing unionist "we're useless without England" attitude. You have been shown link after link, but you reject it. Fair enough. You go your way and I'll go mine. I'm actually quite happy to be Scottish. You of course are happy to rubbish anything Scotland does. Sad really.
210

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 21:08:40
Who wouldn't want the €uro? Probably sm753. He'd be upset about not having the queen's head on the notes.
On with the bowler hat - dust down the flute - and he's off.
211

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 21:09:11
I sent jibjabs to three posters. Received or not?
212

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 21:10:41
sm753

Prove you're not AM2. Send me an email at methalions@hotmail.com

Ping!
213

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 21:11:37
Ah'm bored now. Let's see how sm753 manages to get everybody off the article tomorrow.
214

Hugh Roscombe,

01/12/2008 21:12:11
The article was about Calman no?
215

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 01/12/2008 21:14:06
272 - I don't think Scunnert wants the Euro ! I think it's inevitable. jibjab received thank you.
216

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 01/12/2008 21:16:02
There's hee haw to say about Calman. They're on a road to nowhere.
217

brownlie,

01/12/2008 21:22:28
sm753

Don't worry Broon will dribble some crumbs from the Saviour of the Universe's table to comfort us fore-lock touching unionists and confound the nats. The Scottish Executive will do as they are told by the impartial Calman and his independent commission or their pocket money will be withdrawn.
218

brownlie,

01/12/2008 21:25:40
sm753

Somw smart Alex has told me that our pocket money is to be cut next year. Damn that was quick = Brownlie the new Brahan Seer!
219

,

01/12/2008 21:50:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
220

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 21:57:47
yes and now above my shunkie in the wee room
221

karin.m,

01/12/2008 22:04:02
and another bank bites the dust even with broon bail out. so tell us brown what did your pumping billions of our money into the banks do exactly?

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article5265804.ece
222

Fred Quimby,

01/12/2008 22:12:42
#283
karin.m,
01/12/2008 22:04:02

and why has Broon not rescued this one?

Could it be that it contains the word Scotland in its title?
223

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 02/12/2008 13:21:25
Labour should have delivered full control over Scottish broadcasting in 1999! Their own plans drawn up in the Scottish constitutional convention (with the Lib Dems) included control over broadcasting.

Firearms is a non-issue since all handguns are banned anyway, a ban on target practice with air guns is the nanny state writ large but our Government should certainly have the right to decide on this as on anything else.

Since Calman has ruled out the most logical position of normal powers within the international community, it is not surprising that his report is doomed to be dull. The job is to throw a few crumbs to distract the Scots from independence. Broadcasting is useful but as I say this should already have been done some considerable time ago.

 

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