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Alexander 'wants poll in 12 months'



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Published Date: 06 May 2008
WENDY Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, has revealed she wants a referendum on independence within the next 12 months, with the public being offered a simple "yes or no" vote on separation.
Following her U-turn at the weekend, Ms Alexander yesterday gave more details of how she sees a referendum proceeding.

Sources close to Ms Alexander have made it clear that while she is currently challenging Alex Salmond, the First Minister, to bring forward a bill now, Labour may do it themselves to get an early vote.

Ms Alexander said yesterday that she was "attracted by there being a straight choice for or against independence".

If this happens in 12 months, the Scottish Constitutional Commission on devolution, chaired by Sir Kenneth Calman and initiated by Ms Alexander, will not have reported.

However, Sir Kenneth yesterday insisted it would be "business as usual".

Last night, a spokesman for Ms Alexander said: "A tipping point has been reached. It is now clear the general election will not take place for some time and window of opportunity has opened.

"It is not in Scotland's interests to delay (a referendum for] another three years.

He added: "The SNP should not have four years of fraying the relationship (with the UK] in Scotland's name. Mr Salmond wants to delay because he knows the SNP cannot win at the moment. Meanwhile, the overall uncertainty is bad for Scotland."

It is unclear whether Labour would get the required support in Holyrood for their plans, with opposition coming from both the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats.

Nicola Sturgeon, the deputy First Minister, said: "We will stick to what we offered the people; demonstrating credibility in government, engaging with the people through our national conversation and bringing forward a referendum in 2010."

Scottish Labour MPs, who are to meet tonight to discuss the issue, were yesterday divided on Ms Alexander's plan.

John Robertson, the Labour MP for Glasgow North West, said the issue was "a battle we will win".

But Ian Davidson, MP for Glasgow South West, said he was "surprised" by the timing of Ms Alexander's announcement.

And one Labour MP asked if Ms Alexander "was off her head", adding: "What is she thinking?"

A source close to Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister said: "We have no plans to initiate a referendum. If the Labour Party in Scotland wants to take a position, that's a matter for them."

Key questions on the road to a vote on independence

When would a referendum take place?

Wendy Alexander and Labour appear to prefer a quick referendum in the hope a 'no' vote will take the wind out of the SNP's sails and neuter the issue in a general election expected in 2010.

Alex Salmond and the SNP have made it clear they want to bring an independence referendum bill forward in 2010. This, Mr Salmond claims, will give them time to prove themselves in government and build up the case for independence.

But it will also allow them to use the referendum, or non-referendum if it is blocked by the Unionist parties, as the basis for their Westminster election campaign in 2010 and Holyrood election campaign in 2011.

What form would it take?

Depending on the timing, the referendum would either be a yes or no question on independence or would be a multi-option question on independence, more powers for the Scottish Parliament or the status quo.

The multi-option version would happen if the Scottish Constitutional Commission on developing devolution, chaired by Sir Kenneth Calman, was able to report before the referendum took place.

Mr Salmond has suggested the multi-option version could be done on a single transferable vote basis, but this could allow independence in on a minority vote.

What questions would be asked?

Three options have been mooted:

Should Scotland be independent? Yes or no.

Or: Which of the following do you prefer, Independence, more powers for Scotland or the status quo?

Or Question 1: Do you want independence? Question 2: If devolution continues, do you want the Scottish Parliament to have more powers?

How would a referendum be set up?

Constitutional matters are reserved for Westminster and, in theory, need an Act of Parliament there. However, there is nothing to stop the Scottish Parliament voting through its own "consultative" referendum, which would then be politically difficult for Westminster to ignore.

Who would run the referendum?

At the moment, it would be Westminster because of the provisions of the Scotland Act.

However, votes may be transferred to Scotland because of the recommendations in the Gould Report following the debacle in last year's Scottish elections, which led to more than 140,000 ballot papers being classified as spoiled.

Also, if the Scottish Parliament had a "consultative" referendum, it could run it itself.

What sort of majority would be needed?

In the 1979 referendum, 40 per cent of the electorate as well as majority of those who voted had to support independence.

Famously, the independence vote was higher, but the 40 per cent threshold was not reached, partly because deceased voters still on the electoral roll were included. They were effectively voting against independence by not going to vote.

More recently, devolution referenda in Scotland and Wales merely needed a straight majority.

What are the chances of Scotland becoming independent?

At the moment, polls suggest that the SNP's popularity is high but support for independence is low. However, if the issue became mixed up with a popularity contest between Gordon Brown and Alex Salmond, on current standings, it could swing in the direction of independence.

If people vote against independence, would this be the end of the issue and the SNP?

Labour has made it clear that they are opposed to the idea of a "neverendum" as has happened in Quebec in Canada. There, constant failures for the region to vote for independence have led independence parties to keep bringing the question back.

It is likely the SNP would try to do this if it lost because it would lose its reason to exist. The party would be in a stronger position to do this if it polled around 40 per cent in favour of independence.

The full article contains 1036 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Angus Ogg,

05/05/2008 21:56:40

Wendy Alexander has NO principles.

Her dizzyness in making her U-turn so fast has meant that any brain cells she has left are imploding almost as fast as any vestage of her credibility.

Pure, naked, shameless opportunism; but what can one expect of a self confessed law breaker?

I am absolutely disgusted at Witless Alexander, and personally ashamed I was ever a member of the Labour Party.

The reason I have patience and time for Alex Salmond is at least the guy has principles, even if I don't quite agree with Independence. For the time being I am going to continue voting SNP.

I am not sure how Witless Alexander expects ex Labour voters to be turned on by her dropping her principles faster than a lady in Blytheswood Square drops her undergarments, but this aint the way.

Forunately what Alexander wants, and what Alexander gets are two entireley different things.
2

karinxxx,

06/05/2008 00:01:33
oh i see the hootsman decides to do this for wendy but not the snp

im sure the readers will find that most interesting.
3

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 00:01:58
Another day of nat-wits fantasing about support for independence that doesn't exist. Oh joy!

Why must Scotland with buffoons who want to waste time and money on this independence rubbish?
4

Richardinho,

06/05/2008 00:05:40
Wendy assumes that the electorate will vote 'no' to Scottish independence.

But she is leaving open the possibility that they will vote 'yes'. What is her strategy for that eventuality?
The only party with any plan for that is the SNP and their strategy is for a referendum in 2010 or thereabouts. In other words, what she is proposing is utterly irresponsible. She is putting Labour party gain above the interests of the country.
5

Wardog,

Buckie 06/05/2008 00:07:47
"A tipping point has been reached. It is now clear the general election will not take place for some time and window of opportunity has opened.

"It is not in Scotland's interests to delay (a referendum for] another three years."

How can Wendy reconcile these two statements, her arrogance and taking the Scottish public for granted is truly breathtaking
6

iain,

edinburgh 06/05/2008 00:10:39
This is a desperate tactic because if there is a referendum when the SNP want it the prospects of them winning is far far greater... In fact it shows that Wendy has some nerve and almost made me like her. But then I woke up.....
7

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 06/05/2008 00:13:21
40% rule, does the Scotsman really think there is a chance of that being included as part of a referendum package? why not let it include the other democratic beauty, that of making any unused vote count as a no vote.

I hope that the Lib-Dems and the Tory's who are complaining about this realise the powerful position that Wendy has actually placed them in, if they are really feeling left out of the loop (and they were), then they can return the gesture by pointing out that they will no longer cooperate with the commission as she has made it irrelevent, they can leave her to stew!
8

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 06/05/2008 00:19:23
Alfie

How will U Bend Wendy get this through Parliament in less than 12 months?

Will your party support her?
9

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 00:22:59
8 Andrew

I don't have a political party, neither do you. You are just a demented prat that treats politics with the same deranged gusto that a football hooligan takes football.

As regards a bill getting rhough parliament, 12 months is about right.
10

Steve,

Bo'ness 06/05/2008 00:26:24
Wendy has shot herself in the foot. What a fool!

Labour wont get support for a referendum now.
And when Salmond holds the proposed referendum in 2010,like he was elected to do, is she seriously going to do another u-turn and oppose it?
11

R o g e r Irrelevant,

06/05/2008 00:28:08
I trust Sir Tom Exhaustpipe on this one
12

FS,

Stirling 06/05/2008 00:30:07
"What sort of majority would be needed?

In the 1979 referendum, 40 per cent of the electorate as well as majority of those who voted had to support independence.

Famously, the independence vote was higher, but the 40 per cent threshold was not reached, partly because deceased voters still on the electoral roll were included. They were effectively voting against independence by not going to vote."

- history lesson Scotsman, that was for devolution not independence. In 301 years Scots have gone without the chance to air their views on whether or not Scotland should be independent or not, in or out of the Union.
13

Traquir,

Alba 06/05/2008 00:30:44
12 Months , interesting coincidence that is
the time that Labour MPs gave Maggie Broon
to shape up or get out.

Looks like "Scottish" Labour are still
having trouble adjusting to being in
opposition.

It is quite interesting that the uncertainty she
thinks exists results in the SNP having unprecedented
popularity. She sounds more and more out of touch
somewhat like a modern day Marie Antionette and
we all know what happened there. Apparently
even The Scotsman is predicting the same fate
for Wendy - see tinyurl/3h22db
Awa an bile yer heid , Wendy
14

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 00:31:38
12 F S

I need to correct you because you are a deranged fantasist. Scotland has had its chance at every election to vote for the SNP, they just chose not to - get over it!
15

Paula,

06/05/2008 00:33:19
Is there a photo of this woman in existance where she doesn't look like a Spitting Image puppet?

Wonder if Labourites long for the days of wee Joke McConnell, he may have been inconsequential (sp pedants?) but he was better than this horror. Still, anyone who can get away with fraud charges must have something going for her. Just can't see it myself. Do Labour plan on winning anything in the future - because if they do they better get rid of Wendy, fast.
16

R o g e r Irrelevant,

06/05/2008 00:33:59
I trust Sir Tom Exhaustpipe on this one

karin (???) triple x ???



t1t , quite frankly.

17

Richardinho,

06/05/2008 00:36:41
In the manifesto for the 2007 election which the SNP won, they clearly state that they intend to have a referendum in 2010. Wendy was asked about this on the news today, and she denied it-clearly yet again she hasn't done her research or was simply lying. She is the one who goes on about 'broken promises' all the time, so how can she complain when the SNP keep this one?

In reality it is for Labour to 'put up or shut up'. If they want to introduce legislation to the parliament for an earlier referendum then they should do so.
Assuming of course Gordon Brown lets her.
18

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 06/05/2008 00:37:08
9. Alfie

Touchy, touchy. Had a bad day? I've not even started yet.

The last time I read one of your posts you were extolling the virtues of the Conservative Party. She ain't gonna do it with 45 MSPs. That's why I asked.

Can I have a straight answer this time instead of disproportionate offensive jibes please.
19

Sanny,

06/05/2008 00:38:15
If Brown were to agree, or even fail to reject, Wendy's proposed early referendum, it would place him in an impossible position on the EU ‘Constitutional Treaty’. How can he refuse England (with 90% of the vote) a say on The EU Referendum whilst at the same time NOT opposing a Scottish Referendum. Wendy has modified Brown’s current difficult position into one that is impossible.

I don’t think it will be too long now before Wendy is given gardening leave to spent more time with the family! Both Wendy and Brown have lost the game to the master tactician Alex Salmond.
20

democracy,

Scottish Borders 06/05/2008 00:39:27
#3 Alfred E. Neuman, The stupid little Englishman should leave the postings on this subject to Scottish people, so just run along you silly little boy!!
21

Wardog,

Buckie 06/05/2008 00:39:40
11 R o g e r Irrelevant

Apparently according to the Herald, Tom Hunter denied he was calling for an early referendum after comments he made recently

Senior Westminster Labour strategists who would talk professed to know absolutely nothing of the new tactics last night.

"If it's a mess, it's Wendy's mess," said one last night.

The Liberals & Tories patently didn't know anything about it, neither it would seem did her own party.....

For someone apparently committed to the union and lauded for being the 'brains' behind the calman commission she is playing very fast and loose with both.

Let's make her stew til 2010

Speaking of stew.....Awa an bile yer heid

tinyurl.com/3h22db
22

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 06/05/2008 00:40:49
"The SNP should not have four years of fraying the relationship (with the UK] in Scotland's name."

Yet it has been fine for the Union to rape, kill, maim, steal, manipulate, obfuscate, be deceitful at all times with a plethora of propaganda, based on the myth-making of Anglo- history, justified by Anglo-universities compounding how right they are - for 300 years!

23

R o g e r Irrelevant,

06/05/2008 00:40:58
Angus Ogg.

What a guy.

Or possibly a gal.

Even both.

I've seen those videos!
24

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 06/05/2008 00:45:44
"she wants a referendum on independence within the next 12 months"

Awwwww diddums.

Does that mean that english Labour is now Scottish Labour vis-a -vie F uck the union?
25

Jwil,

06/05/2008 00:50:43
The SNP should not bow to this demand (I am sure they won't). They should stick to their stated time scale. Wendy has a cheek, after being so "opposed" to a referendum.


26

The Pianist,

06/05/2008 00:59:12
HEADLINE: Alexander 'wants poll in 12 months'

Wendy won't be here in 3 months!
27

FS,

Stirling 06/05/2008 01:05:17
#14 - Tell me, which party achieved the highest share of the vote from the Scottish people in last May's election?

By your reasoning people voting for the SNP is tantamount supporting independence

Making your argument: "Another day of nat-wits fantasing about support for independence that doesn't exist. Oh joy!" (#3) somewhat self-contradictory.




28

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 01:16:31
27 F S

You really are a deranged fantasist. The people of Scotland do not want independence, if they did there would have been a single issue party at any one election and got voted in.

The SNP know better than anybody that a referendum would fail and that is why the delay and stall until 2010.

A tactical vote against Labour is not a vote for independence. I would advise you and all the other SNP nutters to try and forget your fantasies, the anger and pain of waking up may be too much for you.
29

Traquir,

Alba 06/05/2008 01:25:57
Wendy has even managed to infuriate one of
the most staunch Unionist bastions The Telegraph :)

"Gordon Brown was being kicked while he was down last night by possibly the one person whose career he's done most to further."

see - http://tinyurl.com/53m3d2

I think she needs to calm down a bit though or
her cover as a covert SNP plant is going to get
blown - it is just getting a bit too obvious.
30

Samoyed,

06/05/2008 01:26:35
Wendy forgets that she is not the leader of Scottish Labour. Gordon Brown is. She is only the leader of the Labour MSPs at Holyrood.

“This decision is an indication of her desperation given her own poll ratings. It is almost as if we are always tail-ending and following Salmond. Surely there are more important issues than this for Labour. Who exactly has she consulted on this?”

A senior Labour MP said to the Times.

Psss! Alfie, is yours a serious case of gout or just plain halitosis.
31

Benedict Arnold,

Paris 06/05/2008 01:29:05
I have seen it suggested elsewhere that the First Minister would be well advised to welcome Ms Alexander's support for a referendum on independence and to suggest that a cross-party conference be held (between the SNP and the Labour Party) to agree the type of referendum (two options or three options) and the wording of the questions, etc. while maintaining that, as the National Conversation is an SNP manifesto commitment, it must run its course.

In this way Mr Salmond calls Ms Alexander's bluff and pulls the rug from under her . . . again.

I expect he is intending to do something along these lines. It would be in character. The next FMQs should be interesting.
32

Edward,

06/05/2008 01:30:12
Wendy Alexander was lying all through the interview on the Channel 4 news, it got so bad with her ignoring to answer questions put to her, that even the interviwer was getting fed up with her. She came accross as a complete idiot!
33

Boggle fey the Bog,

06/05/2008 01:35:33
Ah well, wee windy is really at it noo, a referendum in 12 months.

Well as she is so well acquainted with 'parliamentary procedure' she undoubtedly knows that the current sessions business has already been set out. So to 'inject' this piece of 'Grandstanding' into the present session is nigh on impossible.

But of course she already knows this, so her words are designed to provoke more 'trouble' between Westminster and Holyrood.

If it she did manage to get it introduced, then the other 'Onionist' parties would savage it in 'committee', given that they have laid all their faith in 'Windy's Commission of Omission'.

So that leaves Gordo to force a 'Referendum Bill' through Westminster to apply to Scotland, this would probably have the desired effect, and give a landslide for Independence.

As that is the only way she will get a referendum in '12 months' and the good citizens of Scotland might just take umbrage at Gordo's arrogance by forcing a referendum on Scottish independence but not on a United States of Europe!!

Aye sillier and sillier by the hour, ye coulnae mak it up.
34

Edward,

06/05/2008 01:36:15
Gordon Brown and his puppet Wendy Alexander should start to appreciate that Labour are NOT in government in Scotland. The days of just railroading decisions concerning Scotland are well and truly over.
The other opposition parties really have to get a grip of the situation as Labour are hell bent on manipulating the so called commission as well as any cooked up referendum. Surely to god its dawning on them that there being used! Have they not twigged that the so called commission is not to include independence and that supposedly there was to be no referendum, yet now we have Wendy the witch of the west wanting to have one before the commission is supposed to finish next year. Its all about Labour self preservation. Labour want to noble Scotland and noble the SNP, by forcing a referndum before the time set by the SNP, that way they think they will neutralise the Scottish vote at the general election and return the usual cadre of Labour MP's, so saving Labour
35

Edward,

06/05/2008 01:38:04
'Labour may do it themselves to get an early vote'
sheer unadulterated arrogance!!!
36

Traquir,

Alba 06/05/2008 01:39:50
28 Alfred E. Neuman

Dictionary definition of 'Delay' :

"To postpone until a later time"

That would be a "later time" than what was promised
in the SNP Manifesto which was some time in 2010.
Both Alex and Nicola have confirmed they aim
to keep this manifesto promise so there is
no delay. I am sure that "Scottish" Labour
will be delighted that the SNP is keeping
yet another of their many promises.

Saor Alba


37

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 06/05/2008 01:44:06
This sudden conversion to a referendum on independence shows Wendy Alexander to be a poor leader of a major party. I don't think she has thought this through. It was an impetuous change of position, done merely to spike Alex Salmond's guns.

She set up the constitutional commission but has not the patience or the manners to wait for Calman's proposals. It only makes her look flakey and irresposible.

She throws herself into a project but before she sees it through, she gets fed up and sets off in another direction. She is so desperate to get at the SNP and Salmond that it is obscuring common sense. I think she is too fickle and flighty to be Leader of the Opposition let alone First Minister.

She says not having a referendum now was causing uncertainty. It is Labour's many u turns that is doing that. They just look like a party in disarray.
38

,

06/05/2008 01:45:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
39

Edward,

06/05/2008 01:47:24
#29
I think thats a smoke screen piece in the Telegraph
Gordon Brown has alsredy discussed this with Wendy Aleander and instructed her to do this. This ia a last throw of the dice senario for Brown, he actually thinks he is going to be able to hang on until the next general election. So he is now trying to manipulate the Scottish population by having a referendum earlier so that Scots are still unsure if they can go it alone. plug in a 40% rule and non voters (ie the dead) count as a no. he gets the result he wants, come the general election, more people will vote labour as they have been proven right about the referendum, simple manipulation, all in order for Labour to survive. That is the way Gordon Brown thinks, thats what Wendy thinks, the pair of them are completely demented. A bit akin to the old bunker mentality
40

Traquir,

Alba 06/05/2008 01:49:31
It nevers rains but it pours - poor Wendy the Polis
are after her again in regard to the prawn
cocktail socials with the so called
Scottish Industry Forum (SIF).

"It has now emerged that key documents were moved out of the country by an ally of Gordon Brown in the wake of The Sunday Times’s investigations."

see - http://tinyurl.com/5czutz

My, my what wicked web we weave comrades.
41

Traquir,

Alba 06/05/2008 01:51:26
38 Alfred E. Neuman

Mind your language please - you will bring this
forum or at least yourself into disrepute :)
42

Raygn,

Yellowknife 06/05/2008 01:57:04
Ok Wendy lets call for a referendum so that the stupid voters can forget all about the other issues and we can sidetrack them away from our incompetence and non performance issues.
Is Labour really that thick that they think the electorate are so easily fooled. Then again they (electorate) have voted Labour in for 50 yrs in Scotland as the country went down the economic toilet so maybe Wendy and her cronies do have it figured??
43

williamx,

Canada 06/05/2008 02:02:31
I guess the red phone in Wendy's office is still connected to Westminster and issues instructions at 9 am each day. Perhaps she has flipped her lid. No doubt her brother has something to do with this, perhaps as part of a plan to replace Brown with D Alexander. Just imagine two of them at once. Good cop, bad cop scenario?
44

Phil the Flooter,

Perthshire 06/05/2008 02:21:01
#20 Temper temper

so you are saying that English people living in Scotland are prohibited from having an opinion or a vote?
45

Edward,

06/05/2008 02:23:12
#40
I found the last part most enlightening:
'It has now emerged that key documents were moved out of the country by an ally of Gordon Brown in the wake of The Sunday Times’s investigations.
Until the first story appeared in February, a complete seven-year run of the SIF’s financial records, including bank statements, had been held by Donald Storrie, the SIF chair at the time of the dinners.
After the initial press coverage, Baroness Mary Goudie contacted Storrie and asked for all the files to be sent to her home in London.
Goudie, 61, a former SIF secretary, is one of Alexander’s closest supporters and donors, and is also friendly with the prime minister and his wife.
Contacted by the Sunday Times, Goudie said: “I don’t wish to speak with you, goodbye,” then hung up.
Simon Pia, Alexander’s spokesman, said: “These complaints were made by SNP activists who are trying to score political points. The electorate are not interested in these petty political squabbles'

Sorry Simon Pia your wrong this is a criminal act!
Wendy Alexander is upto to her neck in this.
If there was nothing to hide why move the documents?
I find this disgusting to say the least, Alexander and the rest of her clique do not deserve to be re elected
46

bring them on,

06/05/2008 02:24:58
"12 months", or is it the title of a Bruce Willis movie that is more appropriate.


If you have a policy, state it, if no.... don't
47

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/05/2008 02:25:52
The last desperate gasp of a tarnished Union.

Wendy knows that if the referendum takes place after the next Westminster election that the outcome will be an unequivocal vote for Independence.

Desperate to save her failing Union, she has chosen to roll the dice before hand.

A number of Questions still need to be answered.

If the majority vote for Independence, will the Government in Westminster be bound by that decision?

Who will conduct the vote, the UK government or the Scottish Government?

If the vote is for Independence will Wendy and the Labour party support Alex as he negotiates Independence and will they vote to support the enabling legislation?

The negotiations are likely to drag on into the next General Election, will the Tories be bound by the result to negotiate Scotlands Independence?

Unless she can give the Government guarantees on these questions then her quick fix is just a sham.
48

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 02:41:22
47 Kampung

You are another one of these deranged fantasists. Your posting bears little or no relevance to the real world, is unsubstantiated and the work of pure make-believe on your part.

I like the way you finish with wild speculation.

The majority do not want independence so save your breath.
49

Traquir,

Alba 06/05/2008 02:46:44
Wendy has definitely gone and done it this time.

"It is understood that Ms Alexander wants the SNP leader's proposals, for a Bill in 2010, to be brought forward so they do not coincide with Mr Brown being defeated in a general election."

see - http://tinyurl.com/58pyjm

Clearly it is true what they say about there being
no honour amongst thieves :)

50

bring them on,

06/05/2008 02:48:11
#48

Sir,

Will all due respect.

Have you ever fought a war?

Some of my closest friends were there.
51

Traquir,

Alba 06/05/2008 02:52:12
48 Alfred E. Neuman

I seemed to have upset you with my cunning
ploy of using a dictionary. Let's try
it one more time and perhaps you will
find how useful it can be :

. Deranged -
"behaving in a wild and uncontrolled way"

Sound familiar :)

Great post by the way KampungHighlander (#47)
52

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/05/2008 02:53:57
I think Alex should enter into negotiations with Wendy on the legislation to be put forward.

Since she is so desperate she is likely to agree to anything.

Then letter her introduce the carefully crafted bill to parliament.

Once the bill is on the record, then withdraw your support unless the bill is amended to fix a date in October 2010 for the referendum.

The bill will fail, then in January 2010 you introduce the identical bill.

Watch her twist in the wind as she struggles to decide wether to support her own legislation.

Give em enough rope........
53

bring them on,

06/05/2008 02:55:56
There are no great poats on here, just drivel and repetition.
54

Joseph Gibson,

Stevenston 06/05/2008 03:11:01

Does anyone have any idea what would happen if we broke away? Do any of you even use your heads? have people forgotten that politicians lie and are greedy beyond imagination?

I guess not.

If Scotland does get Independence, what do you think will happen next?
I've always wondered what would happen and I think I know, We will join the EU. Why? well, there are alot of benefits from joining the EU, but the only benefits would be the politicians have fat pay cheques and stuff :D So, yer... I think they would. Already Scotland is being hurt by stupid EU laws, and eventually probably the kilt will be banned for indecent exposure :D wae hey!!! NOT! seriously, you all think we will stand alone? and our Est. £500 Mill parliament would be moved to Belgium, what a waste.


Why don't we British just sort all these problems and have the same laws all over the United Kingdom, and everyone is equal rather than having all this ridiculous fighting and ending a Union that forged the worlds largest empire, spread the english language and all the science and knowledge of our people to others. Ahwell, we're already spitting on our ancestors and not giving a heck what they did for us anyway, so Yer, lets all just throw it all away, whats left of it anyway.
55

Royster,

06/05/2008 03:13:31
#52. Why bother? In political terms 2010 might as well be 2110. Can't understand why the SNP is against this. There is a chance they may win the referendum given where the oil price is at the moment - though in sterling terms it's not that much more than before. The best way forward is to close Holyrood first at the stroke of a pen then give Scotland a chance to vote on full and immediate independence. The SNP would have a much bigger chance that way as it would annoy most Scots and all the MSPs on the local gravy-train. However it would solve the neverendum problem.
56

bring them on,

06/05/2008 03:14:59
#54

Why do Hearts supporters get a vote?

Talk aboot nonsense....

Have to sort oot the basics first.

57

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 03:31:45
So we now have a new investigation of Wendy's false fundraising.

Good on the SNP for letting the authorities know about the Strathclyde police pretending they investigated her corruption. They never questioned anyone even Wendy never spoke to police. Well thats obviously except when she asked the fraud squad to let it go away.

And now the docuements have all been sent down to London addressed to a good friend of Wendy and Gordon Brown.

And you lot thought we were actually living in a democracy. The Scottish People are being treated with contempt by the London Controlled New Labour Party and its time for us to put a complete end to it.

There should be a complete and open police inquiry. It should not be conducted by Strathclyde Police, but a seperate force or better a foreign force like Interpol.

This shower should be sent to some Scottish Island and forced to live a very basic life similar to the past generations of Scots. No electricity and they eat what they grow. If they cant they should starve just like our poor ancestors.
58

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 03:33:11
Follow Traqirs link. http://tinyurl.com/5czutz
59

bring them on,

06/05/2008 03:40:41
Wendy's fund raising, not enough police on the streets, or too many.

The country on its knees, collapsing at the bridge heads.

Where are the big men to sort it oot.
60

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 03:46:55
Joseph, it seems like you are arguing against yourselve. The attitude you have about politicians was gained through the Union Politicians and the Union system.

The other matter about the EU, is in my opinion still up for grabs. I will be the first to argue that a referendum on the EU must be held by the new Independant Scotland. I also will be demanding that the Sovereignty of our Waters and Culture should not be up for discussion. If Alex Salmond thinks that for one moment that Scots would dump Westminster and then give up one inch of our land, to another foreign power, then he is dreaming.

The Scottish People will be Sovereign of Scotland as per the Declaration of Arbroath and there will be no signing of a Scotland/Eu deal without our permission.Scotland has enough resources to set us up for the long term. If we use it right and build up overseas investment in Scotland, then the world is our oyster. NO MORE WAITING FOR OUR POCKETMONEY FROM LONDON.
61

bring them on,

06/05/2008 03:56:47
#60

Another Hearts fan?

Well, agree with most of your post.... who would take the time to read through the usual skipping in and oot of going nowhere lenghty but with nae content post?

But see the last part, no way.
62

Joseph Gibson,

Stevenston 06/05/2008 04:16:23

Well Scotland would probably join the EU if it does breakaway. Why would It join the EU? I honestly would have to say Money :D joining the EU has no benefits for Scotland.
63

bring them on,

06/05/2008 04:25:19
Joining the EU?

No league extension there, mate.

A wee bit of common sense required here...
64

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 06/05/2008 05:12:04
So Wendy is now a Refrendum Convert - poor Annabel, poor Nicol. With friends like Wendy who needs enemies? I would love to be a fly on the wall the next time those 3 meet again!

I suspect that Wendy has panicked and the assessment of one of her Scottish MSP's that she is making up policy on the hoof is correct. Her idea of any referendum being a simple yes/no question IS good though and should be adopted by all parties – there can be no scope for any ambiguity on this most important issue.

The SNP manifesto promised a Referendum in 2010 and that is what they will do. (They did, after all, win the Election) Why should they rush headlong into an early vote just to suit a political adversary? As David Cameron is now all but guaranteed to win a UK general election, probably now delayed to the 5th of May 2010, Salmond could do worse than going for 19th of August 2010 for the Independence Referendum.

By then the Tories would have been back in power for 3 and a half months; the Labour Party civil war should be getting along nicely; the UK Parliament would be in recess; and the weather should be good.

Welcome to the debate Wendy.
65

Saul Tyre,

Germany 06/05/2008 06:21:26
A referendum within 12 months and who will be leading the campaigns?

For the Union: Wendy Alexander (with Gordon Brown in her corner)
For independence: Alex Salmond

She hasn't a hope in hell.
66

Mike Cardiff,

Cardiff 06/05/2008 06:24:20
Scotland is to be admired in having the confidence to at least debate this issue while in Wales we are still divided on whether we even really want an assembly.

The option I do not see mentioned is whether a referedum could also include returning to the pre devolution status! I am sure in Scotland it would be rejected, in Wales I am now so sure.

Is Wendy's game simply that she wants to follow brother and big daddy Gordon to Westminster and will do anything to get there?

In Wales we do have some Labour figures willing to put Wales above party - thus the coalition with Plaid - but always with Labout the UK party will come first.

PS If so man other nations in the EU have smaller populatiosn than either Wales or Scotland why are we both so scared of standing on our own feet.

PS I am actually half English, half Scottish but have lived in Northern Ireland and Wales for most ofmy life and only lived in England til 10 so not too much harm was done.
67

TommyKaye,

UK 06/05/2008 06:46:40
Alexander didn't tell Brown of Scots vote plan

Gordon Brown has been bounced by one of his closest allies into accepting a snap referendum on Scotland breaking away from the 301-year-old Union.

PAWendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, announced her backing for a "Yes or No" vote on independence.
The U-turn was a further blow to the authority of the embattled Prime Minister who was not informed of Ms Alexander's announcement.
It also caused ruptures in Labour north and south of the Border with Westminster sources aghast at her move.
Mr Brown opposes a referendum, which Alex Salmond wants to use to ask whether his administration should "negotiate a settlement with the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".
It is understood that Ms Alexander wants the SNP leader's proposals, for a Bill in 2010, to be brought forward so they do not coincide with Mr Brown being defeated in a general election.
In a further sign that his authority is waning, she was given the overwhelming backing of Labour's MSPs who claimed it was a choice for her and not the Prime Minister.
Horrified Westminster Labour sources last night labelled her strategy, which she hopes will "neuter" the Nats, a "freelance operation".
But Ms Alexander argued that the delay in Mr Salmond bringing forward his referendum legislation was causing uncertainty that harmed Scotland's economy and its relationship with Westminster.
She said: "Our message to the First Minister is enough of the huff, puff and bluff. Bring it on. The issue is [that] the SNP are running scared of Scotland's verdict. I certainly don't fear the verdict of the Scottish people. We shouldn't delay it until the very fag end of this parliament.
"I am attracted, I have to say, to there being a straight choice for or against independence, which is something the First Minister maintains he wants but seems reluctant to put to the vote."
She said she would not give Mr Salmond a "blank cheque"
68

donald,

glasgow 06/05/2008 06:49:44
Bring it on Turkey.

Roll on Xmas.
69

Royster,

06/05/2008 06:51:05
Well judging from the comments here, it looks like the nats are really quite scared by the prospect of a referendum. Still calling Wendy childish names and using pathetic anti-union rhetoric.
70

Conway,

06/05/2008 06:54:29
Come on Scotsman ,Scotland has never had a referendum on Independence ,Devolution yes and that was when the Unionist parties put in the 40% rule to put back Scotlands right to self goverment 30+ years.
71

pehman,

06/05/2008 07:00:44
I'm confused

Sources close to Ms Alexander have made it clear that while she is currently challenging Alex Salmond, the First Minister, to bring forward a bill now,


Labour may do it themselves to get an early vote.---------------
So here she says she wants an early vote, then comes up with this--------


last night, a spokesman for Ms Alexander said: "A tipping point has been reached. It is now clear the general election will not take place for some time -------------------
Would that be because you don't want an early vote then ?

As for her tipping point remark, she's spot on. People are getting realy keen on tipping the labour party out on their @rse.

PS, WHO are you going to get to introduce this in w/minster wendy ?




72

steve 1511,

aberdeen 06/05/2008 07:02:46
wendy the bung would not even answer why she had decided to change her mind on a referendum on channel 4 news, she looked a right eejit,but we already know that,but she has the support of wee dougie the incompentent brother,wit a pair of dunderheids in one family
73

Anonym,

Somewhere 06/05/2008 07:08:11
When does Wendy Alexander want a referendum on Europe to be held?
74

Jimmy the Pie,

06/05/2008 07:15:35
Now that Red Wendy has done a dramatic U-turn on a referendum, can we expect to see the e-mails???
75

Royster,

06/05/2008 07:19:10
Who cares about a referendum on the EU? Who's to say that an independent Scotland will be allowed into the EU without giving up all of its assets? Its negotiating position outside the union will have all the strength of a deflated crisp packet. Scotland may be allowed to stay in the EU as is...but it is by no means certain.
76

Aesop,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 07:34:02
The woman who has publicly supported an independence referendum for all of one day now wants to decide the timing. Laughable.
77

Ubi,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 07:45:47
Four legs good, two legs better. Ms Alexander has to hope that the people do not realise she is treating them with contempt.

Let's not imagine for a second that this complete about-face has anything to do with the country's interests. The target beneficiary is, as ever, the Labour party.
78

Jimmy the Pie,

Bringing it on, 10/10 06/05/2008 07:50:58
#75
You forgot these 'facts' Royster. The scare stories are already starting.

And a 30 foot high fence will be built at the border, patrolled by armed guards. Families will be split in scenes similar to those witnessed in East Germany. Power cuts will be widespread and frequent. Terrorists will flock to attack Scotland. Food shortages will be commonplace. Vulnerable 3 year olds will drop like flies
Inflation will run at 500% rising. All hospitals will close as they are owned by the NHS. Haiti and Burma will start sending aid to an independent Scotland. Cuba and North Korea will run Scotland's armed forces. The manufacture of begging bowls will be Scotland's only industry.
79

Independence? Bring it On!,

06/05/2008 07:54:55
So, what news from Bella G and simpering Nicol this morning? They must be delighted at this latest embarrassing own goal from the WENDY. Teeny tiny Sir Ken Calman's commission brought to its knees before it had a chance to grill the boy from Big Brother or decide how it's going to reject Independence...

One can only surmise that both Tory and Lib Dem support will actually rise after this case of the WENDY placing both of her feet in her ever malleable mouth.
80

Royster,

06/05/2008 07:56:58
#78. What startling wit! I suppose the lack of meaningful nationalist comment on this board comes from the fact that SNP HQ hasn't come up with a response yet. Its drones and lackies don't know what to do unless they have the party-line drip fed to them. You're all just a bunch of cadres and culties.
81

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 06/05/2008 07:57:02
Excellent idea, Wendy! Ignore the whingers and go for it. Call the nationalist bluff.

A referendum is the last thing SNP wants as it's their only policy. Let them throw their toys out of the Tartan Taliban pram. Make them squirm with their feeble excuses. Toom Tabards, one and all.

Q: I want Scotland to be an independent nation (like, say, Malawi or Zimbabwe). Agree/Disagree?
82

Rob,

Moray 06/05/2008 07:59:15
What is the rarest bird in Scotland today?

A Nat who wants a referendum.

Let us hope that the Tories and Lib Dems do something sensible at last and join with McLabour to introduce a bill.

Meanwhile Nats, here's a new strap line/song to replace the very clearly redundant "It's Time" - "Running Scared"
83

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 06/05/2008 08:00:14
I think Royster, that we will find that Scotland's case for remaining in the EU is considerably stronger than a crisp packet.Estonia,Slovenia,Malta,Latvia,Lithuania etc were all welcomed into an expanding EU.Interesting to see Slovenia (less than 2 million people) now taking the presidency of the EU.I'm open about EU membership but I do know that there is strong support for Scotland out there.

Getting back on topic,I welcome Wendy Alexander's (alleged)conversion to a referendum.However,I suspect that her motives have more to do with politics than a desire to test public opinion.I also wonder how much support she has in her own party? No matter,every time we see a surge in SNP support,other parties concede some ground (albeit as little as they can get away with).However,is obvious that the status quo is no longer an option. let us see how far the tide goes up the beech,this time.
84

catgut,

pomona 06/05/2008 08:01:08
It does not take much thinking to figure that labours time is running out, and the panic to have a vote now.

Sorry wendy im not going to suddenly return to voting labour now that you actually have a policy. Even when it happens to be one I agree with.


Labour have taken the bait, salmond just has to wait his moment to set the hook.
85

Conan the Librarian™,

06/05/2008 08:07:08
80
Never been called a cultie before, something close though.
86

Independence? Bring it On!,

06/05/2008 08:08:23
The WENDY was asked four times on C4 news last night, when she had changed her mind on her policy towards a referendum.

She was unable to provide an answer and then denied that the SNP proposed a referendum in 2010 which had been in the party's election manifesto.

She seems to have convinced herself that she was not performing a U-turn, despite various quotes on the record that she was vehemently opposed to a referendum.

Why would she deny that the SNP proposed a referendum in 2010 in their manifesto? When it's clearly stated on p.15 of the manifesto, and has been repeated consistently throughout the past year.


Royster, Rules and Rob are you seriously telling us that you will vote for her?
87

JayJay,

Right here 06/05/2008 08:17:16
Who is paying for the cost of the Calman Commission?
I suspect it is the hapless taxpayer.
Since Wendy has now enthusiastically chosen the one option Calman won't be looking at, I'd respectfully suggest Calman submit a final invoice to Wendy HQ (split into handy sums of under £999.99) and pack his sarnies into his case.
This is like the behaviour of a hydra. Cut off one heid, and another one pops up, flapping around in a panic.
Honestly, given a choice between characters like Wendy, Jackie and Andy, or going it alone, I think I know the choice I'd be making.
88

Jimmy the Pie,

06/05/2008 08:20:21
Red Wendy's behaviour is becoming quite disturbing and erratic.
I'm sure there is medical support out there for her (and Comrade Broon). All quite sad really, but not entirely unexpected