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Published Date: 31 March 2008
ALEX Salmond's plans for a local income tax in Scotland suffered have a serious blow after a senior UK government minister issued an unprecedented formal warning of a £750 million black hole in the Scottish Government's plans.
Yvette Cooper, Chief Secretary to the Treasury, has written to Scotland's finance secretary, John Swinney, asking for a detailed explanation surrounding the controversial local income tax plans.

The Scotsman has seen a copy of Ms Cooper's letter,
which states that UK Treasury officials believe there is a £750 million gap between what is raised now by council tax and what would be raised by the local income tax. Ms Cooper asks Mr Swinney to explain that discrepancy and she also expresses her concern about the potential damage to public services in Scotland if that amount of money is lost from council finances.

Ms Cooper states: "Although you don't say what you expect a local income tax of 3p to raise, I understand that it is around £1.35 billion, which compares to around £2.1 billion currently raised by council tax, and that makes an annual shortfall in the region of £750 million.

"This loss would have a serious impact on local council services across Scotland."

There are already concerns that the SNP's flagship policy on freezing council tax could strain local services. Ms Cooper's intervention suggests a move to a local income tax could add further pressure.

Ms Cooper is due to meet Mr Swinney in London tomorrow.

This is the first time that a UK government minister has intervened in a policy area devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Ms Cooper believes she can do so because the introduction of local income tax would need legislation at Westminster to authorise Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs to collect the new tax.

She also believes that the UK government has the right to express its concerns if it believes there is a threat to public services in any part of the UK.

Ms Cooper stresses that she wants to form a good working relationship with Mr Swinney, although she does express her "disappointment" that they have not managed to meet sooner.

However, her decision to oppose a Scottish Government flagship policy so strongly will cause further problems between the two governments.

Mr Salmond has already clashed with the UK government over a deal which, he believed, could see the return of the Lockerbie bomber to Libya; over the refusal to allow Scottish ministers to lead fisheries negotiations; and over differences of opinion on firearms legislation.

Since he announced the local income tax proposals earlier this month, Mr Swinney has had to defend them against the concerted opposition of the Tories, the Labour Party, the business community and some unions.

All have warned of a black hole in the finances and all have branded the tax unfair because it will not affect those who live on unearned income, allowing wealthy landowners or private investors to escape paying the tax, but penalising all those households with more than one earner.

At the heart of the dispute between the two administrations over the local income tax is £400 million in annual council-tax benefit, which comes to Scotland from the Treasury to cover the costs of those who cannot pay the council tax.

Mr Swinney is adamant that the £400 million should continue to come to Scotland, even if the council tax is axed, because it is part of the Scottish block grant and he has included the money in his tax calculations.

The UK government is equally convinced that the money is not part of the Scottish block grant so will not be paid out if council tax is abolished.

A spokesman for the First Minister said Mr Swinney would raise the same issue and demand to know that the money would continue to come to Scotland.

The spokesman said: "There can be no question of the council-tax cash being removed from Scotland because Treasury documents show it comes within the Scottish block grant."

The spokesman added that any gap in funding between what is raised by the council tax and what could be raised by the local income tax would be funded centrally by the Scottish Government.

"That is an issue for the Scottish Government. That is not an issue for the Westminster government in any shape or form," he said.

"The issue for the Westminster government is to provide a reassurance that they will not do a cash-grab because of a democratic decision of the Scottish Parliament (to introduce a local income tax]."

KEY QUERIES

IN HER letter, Cooper asks the questions:

• What is the shortfall between council tax and local income tax, and how would this be met?

• Where is the evidence that local income tax is better than council tax?

• How much will administration cost?

• As it is a centrally imposed tax, how does this improve local accountability?

• How do you avoid adverse labour-market effects from higher marginal rates of tax?

• How can ministers be sure it will only impact adversely on the top 10 per cent of earners?

Radical overhaul of election tactics planned

LABOUR leaders are considering changes both to the way they select candidates and to their list of target seats in an attempt to win back power from the SNP, it emerged last night.

Stuart Clark, chair of the Scottish executive committee of the Labour Party, said the party had to examine radical changes to the way it campaigns and fights elections.

He said Labour had to accept that the next election would be won and lost over a much wider spread of marginal seats than had been the case in the past, and Labour should consider changing its "key seats strategy".

He added that the party should also think about changing the rule which prevents candidates from standing on both the constituency ballot and the regional lists. Scottish Labour does not allow candidates to stand on both parts of the ballot, even though all the other main parties do allow this.

Labour has traditionally been dominant on the constituency vote and it has been felt for some time that it would not be right for candidates to be defeated in one part of the election only to secure a seat on another.

Mr Clark told delegates: "We have had some excellent list candidates standing against sitting MSPs from other parties. This has given the others an advantage and this is something we will consult on."

Gavin Strang, Labour MP for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh, agreed: "This is something we may have to change."

Browne in devolution pledge

SCOTTISH Secretary Des Browne gave his backing to Wendy Alexander's Devolution Commission yesterday, telling Labour activists they have "nothing to fear" from it.

Mr Browne had been cool in his response to calls for changes to the devolution settlement in the past and his junior minister, David Cairns, caused uproar when he described the debate over Holyrood powers as something only for the "McChattering classes" earlier this year.

But yesterday Mr Browne tried to put all this behind him by using the closing speech to the Scottish Labour Conference to give the commission his public support.

The Scottish Secretary said: "We have nothing to fear from looking afresh at the devolution settlement, looking afresh at it to strengthen it, so that it can continue to serve the interests of the people of Scotland within a strong United Kingdom."

And he added: "That is not just my position, or the position of this party, but the position of the vast majority of the people of Scotland. The fixation of the SNP on a narrow, parochial vision of Scotland is that of a dwindling minority."

Mr Browne's endorsement of the Constitutional Commission was not as as the Prime Minister's last Friday but it did represent a change in tone from the Scotland Office.

Mr Browne told delegates they had to move on from inquests into last year's election defeat and start fighting back against the Nationalists.

"Scottish Labour is back in business," he said. "As a party we have had our period of reflection. That was right, but that time is over now. It's time to get back to work. The fight-back has begun."

Mr Browne told the conference that although the party had lost the last Scottish election, it was still in power and legislating for Scotland at Westminster.

"We may be in opposition in the Scottish Parliament but we are still in government in Scotland. Every month we are legislating for Scotland."







The full article contains 1440 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Angus Ogg,

30/03/2008 23:35:59
Ms Cooper (aka Mrs Ed Balls, Gordys best mate), "stresses that she wants to form a good working relationship with Mr Swinney, although she does express her "disappointment" that they have not managed to meet sooner".

Don't know if it is worth John Swinney's time reciprocating Ms Cooper-Balls wish to form a good working relationship?

A pound to a penny, Ms Cooper-Balls will be looking for a new job immediately after the forthcoming UK General Election which will likely be held sometime between May 2009 and at the very legal latest May 2010.

So she will be in her job for another 300 to 600 days maximum.

With the utter mess New Labour made of last election in 2008 losing Labour control in Scotland for the first time in living memory, Labour has to be hanging their coat on the shoogly peg for the next UK wide Westminster election ???

So the more relevant question is whether John Swinney is having preparatory discussion with George Osborne and his Conservative Shadow Treasury people, who England are likely to put in charge of the UK Treasury in 300 to 600 days time ???
2

Beau,

Glasgow 31/03/2008 00:10:05
Is this a serious inter-governmental communication aimed at clarifying financial relationships, or just a nasty, petulant use of a UK government minister's position? From the tone, the latter seems more likely, and one wonders how the letter became public.
3

Jimmy the Pie,

Enjoying watching New Labour Sleaze and Corruption 31/03/2008 00:12:29
I wouldn’t be surprised if Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon pulled a Mugabe style election. His pet halfwit, Dougie Alexander, has plenty experience running shambolic elections. The BBC, The Hootsmoan and The Daily Retard would be the ideal vehicles to push the party line (if people started reading them again). He could claim he was saving the victims of the SNP from the evil SNP. Red Wendy would ride to the rescue, on her red donkey, gibbering a lot of sh-ite while stuffing her saddlebags with cash from grateful Multi-nationals (and Channel Islanders). Alex and his brave government would be arrested as enemies of the state (under terrorism legislation) and as punishment exiled to Robbin Island (courtesy of Media 1).
AM2 would likely get the contract to re-educate them.
Marshall Law would be lifted as soon as practical and safe (probably about 50 years) or possibly earlier if Scots showed true remorse for doubting the Dear Leader’s words of wisdom. Scotland could then be abandoned to its fate as all the oil will be gone, French windfarms will cover the countryside, German nuclear reactors will be dotted around the coast. Oh yes and we will all be socialists.
4

Jimmy the Pie,

31/03/2008 00:21:58
Hamish, in your headline you say that

"ALEX Salmond's plans for a local income tax in Scotland suffered a serious blow last night when a senior UK government minister issued an unprecedented formal warning of a £750 million black hole in the Scottish Government's plans."

How is this a serious blow???
What is a "formal warning"? is it like a polis caution?
Has anyone ever heard of Yvette Cooper?
Is she a socialist?
How many marks out of ten does Wendy give her??
Has she any skeletons in her cupboard??
Did you make up this story Hamish??
Will your peerage come through before Broon kicked oot?
5

Tris,

Dundee 31/03/2008 00:23:02
"We may be in opposition in the Scottish Parliament but we are still in government in Scotland. Every month we are legislating for Scotland." Dez Browne, Minister for Illegal Wars.


Miss Copper-Balls would probably do eat her own foot (on Gordon's behalf) if she thought it would scupper anything that the Scottish government is doing to make life better for Scottish people. They have to make the SNP look bad, and it's a hard job, but they are putting all they have into it.

They probably have late night Pizza Meetings trying to work out the next spoke they can put in the wheels of our elected government.

My challenge to Yvette would be that she find a way in England of avoiding pensioners cluttering up their already overcrowded jails because they can't afford to pay the council tax.

And yep, I agree with Angus Ogg, it's kinda too late to negotiate anything with this bunch of losers: best start talking to Goerge Osbourne, who will be Finance Secretary in England soon.
6

Fifi la Bonbon,

31/03/2008 00:24:55
Ms Cooper's questions needed to be asked and they need to be answered.

If there's going to be a £750m gap then it seems reasonable to ask Mr Swinney to explain how it will be filled. This is not a time for belligerence on his part. Unfortunately, the entire strategy of the SNP administration seems to be bluff and bluster aimed at causing discord in order to advance the separatist agenda.

I am extremely worried that his plans for local income tax depend in securing £400m in payments from the UK benefits budget which haven't been agreed. Shouting and screaming won't persuade the UK government to release the funds.

I am positively terrified by the comment - by an un-named spokesperson - that "any gap in funding between what is raised by the council tax and what could be raised by the local income tax would be funded centrally by the Scottish Government."

What does that mean? It sounds like it means massive cuts in jobs and public services. Which might suit the neo-liberals in the SNP cabinet like Mr Jim Mather who are trying to create a US-style economy with a diminishing public sector, but they would screw up the lives of many thousands of working class Scots.

Mr Swinney may well have full and complete answers to Ms Cooper's questions, and he should lose no time in sharing these with the nation. He certainly should not hide behind un-named spokespeople. His lack of clarity should worry all of us.
7

Tris,

31/03/2008 00:26:23
#3... Jimmy the Pie.

I could read your stuff all night.
8

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 31/03/2008 00:32:24
Monammed and mountain stuff this. It is all about Scotland so Swinney has to go to London.

Unprecedented this certainly is not. It's just another department.

Laugh? You bet.
9

,

31/03/2008 00:32:45
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10

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 31/03/2008 00:36:24
You can just imagine these people summoning us to their mountains on the day of independence and then coldly dismissing you as their remit is over.

Bit like AMtwa's daily farewell.
11

Vivas,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 00:42:10
6 "serious blows to the SNP" per week reported by The Scotsman

And 1 "serious blow to the SNP" on a Sunday from SOS.

The only "serious blow" that The Scotsman will have to worry about are circulation figures nudging to below 50K per day and the redundancies and cuts that will follow. I mean, who the freek would actually spend their hard earned cash to PAY to read this shoite !
12

Senga Jean,

Scotland 31/03/2008 00:50:30
A serious blow is a serious blow. Job done. Tabloid printed. Sorted.

NuLabour are causing unnecessary antagonism toward Scotland. I think they should back off or the reaction might be greater than that which was dealt to the Tories
13

Jimmy the Pie,

31/03/2008 01:10:56
Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon should seriously consider appointing himself as Dear Leader of the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption (North British Branch).
After all Alex does two jobs.
Broon could then tell himself what to do about subduing those rebellious, ungrateful Scots. He could tell himself to invade Scotland, claiming he asked himself for help. Then he could have a chat with himself and ask the invaders to retreat. He would then be able to portray himself as #1 National hero, with Red Wendy by his side. Hamish would then get his peerage and everyone would live happily ever after in the new socialist utopia.
10/10
14

subrosa,

31/03/2008 01:16:25
There's no doubt labour intend to do everything in their power to stop the SNP - every sleazy trick in their library will rear its head. Thankfully they've tried their tricks just a few times too often and now we've cried wolf.

But they'll stop at nothing. All these heid bummers coming up from London - do they honestly think that will impress Scots?

The glitz of their conference - who paid for it? Would be interesting to know as they keep bleating they want more money for opposition.
15

subrosa,

31/03/2008 01:17:59
Oh and I see on another thread that McMcMillan of the CBI is on the panel for their new working group. Who'd have believed it? There he was last week implying he was impartial...
16

,

31/03/2008 01:19:26
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17

gaffer,

Kamloops 31/03/2008 01:24:16
sorry I cant say somethng that would be inteligent that would be an addition to some of the good comments here, but it would be a really great thing that when Scotland becomes independant, that they allow all the Scots living overseas to vote on Major issues, I understand that Italy allows Italians living overseas to vote , I think this would be a great boost to Scotland if we could vote as well , after all , we are still Scottish born , and I think it would have to be allowed only to people having been born there.
Is that worthy of any comments, Not meaning to offend anyone , I`m just a quite Scot with some thought`s
18

The Daleks,

Longmen 31/03/2008 01:28:47
Yet another "serious blow"!

Joke journalism, or what?

Doesn't the Hootsmon realise that it's alienating a large proportion of its remaining readership by writing endless "serious blow" type nonsense.

If we want to be treated like cretins, we'll read the Daily Retard, thank you.
19

PMK,

Ayrshire 31/03/2008 01:30:12
1) who asked Ed Ball's missus for her opinion on anything?

2) who (improperly) passed this letter to the hootsman newspaper of North Britain?

3) accepting Lab Govt's figure of 750 million - which lets face it is a big if (45 minutes to destruction anyone?) - it becomes 350 when the 400 million plus Scotland has contributed to the fund for council tax rebate is returned rather than simply pilfered.

4) an incidental point really, but surely backing from the doomed Des Browne to all this pointess unionist "McChattering" (in the commission, which refuses to discuss the reason why the matter is being raised) exposes it for what it really is: at best a distraction at worst a way of dictating to scotland on nuclear issues (both weapons and power generation).
20

Jimmy the Pie,

31/03/2008 01:35:32
#20 Gaffer

Only problem with that would be if New labour Sleaze and Corruption had anything to do with postal votes. Their record is abysmal

From the Daily Mail

New Labour knows what it is doing. It has always known. It made postal voting much easier in 2000 in a desperate attempt to increase the turnout of its own traditional supporters while showing not the slightest interest in electoral safeguards.

This was crude party politicking at its worst. And under any other Government, there would certainly have been a civil service revolt at such a naked abuse of power. But New Labour has remorselessly undermined the once-proud impartiality of the Whitehall mandarins. They are now so cowed that they just do as they are told. And ministers continue to get away with anything.
21

Richardinho,

31/03/2008 01:36:54
So essentially this is a tax cut then.
22

frank mcbride,

lusitania 31/03/2008 01:39:26
#16, THE Pie.

Jimmy, get up to speed. Gordon is already doing it!

He variously calls himself Lancelot (ancient name for George), The Green Knight (John), Galahad (David). Guenivere stays at home because he is concerned about her mental health, as he is about his own. Merlin is having problems and has gone through many transformation trying to give them guidance, and has decided to go back to a quieter life ( a holiday house in Iraq).
They have all been set the task of destroying Mordred, but this is proving elusive.

In the Parallel universe, the Grab Nebula, where the Brownite people live the Round Table consists of 2 short planks nailed together with nebulous promises of utopia, for vulnerable 2yo's and hard working families, after the billionaires and political servants of the people have been rewarded.

All hail King Arthur, saviour of Britain.
23

karinxx,

31/03/2008 01:40:56
I think its time we had a newspaper strike in scotland. Not by the newspapers but by us the readers. The journalists of scotland are not printing news they are printing propaganda by the westminster government. Its time this stopped.
24

frank mcbride,

lusitania 31/03/2008 01:47:07
BTW, where the report on Ms Alexander threatening to force a vote of no confidence?

"Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad."
25

frank mcbride,

lusitania 31/03/2008 02:19:55
#28 Castaway.

Do you really believe that Holyrood would allow Ms Alexander be FM? Which other party would support her?

An election would be the result of a no confidence vote carrying.

"Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad."
26

Fanling,

Hong Kong 31/03/2008 02:38:08
The Brownminster negative spin machine is in full filthy flow, aided and abetted by The Fake-Scotsman mouthpiece in Edinburgh. Bedfellows all, but sensible Scots people will not be fooled by this endless Gutter-Labour scaremongering propaganda. Look for more of the slimy same in the months to come.

New Labour (so-miscalled) is a lost cause and sinking by the day. The odious grinning Blair and his unelected "British" successor will take the rap for that. Their only remaining supporters are deluded fools and benefit-scrounging horses.
27

frank mcbride,

lusitania 31/03/2008 02:56:46
#31, Castaway.

I made an almost similar point on the Herald. However, I don't think that the other Parties are as stupid as NuLab.

But, her threat will come back to haunt her.
28

,

31/03/2008 03:18:20
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29

,

31/03/2008 03:22:55
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30

Jimmy the Pie,

31/03/2008 04:34:03
We should be grateful that all these London based socialists can spare their invaluable time to visit us here in North Britain and warn us of the impending doom we are all facing with Alex Salmond and his despicable gang of Tartan Tories.
The Morris Dancing socialists are about to get one almighty hammering in May's local elections from the South British Pin Stripped Tories. For Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon, to spend so much time trying to educate us ungrateful North British, is the supreme sacrifice and we should be eternally grateful. If the postal voting scams don’t work this time round it is entirely conceivable that the only local authority under Comrade Broon’s authority in Great Britain will be North Lanarkshire.
Will Broon be the last ever socialist leader of Great Britain??
Will Red Wendy be the last ever socialist leader in North Britain?
Will Jackie get a hamburger named after her??
Watch this space!!!
31

Tobe ornot,

Canada 31/03/2008 05:11:07
Why Gaffer should you be allowed to vote on Scottish issues. I am a Scot lived in Canada for 40 years but do not, for one minute, feel I should be allowed a vote on scottish affairs. We don't contribute to the economy or receive benefits! why should we be allowed a vote - utter nonsence.
32

Pilrig.,

Livingston 31/03/2008 06:14:39
Save the Cooncil Tax ! The most popular tax in the history of the universe (not).
33

Bridged and tunnelled,

31/03/2008 06:16:45
the politics of this look as slick as the abominable Ms Cooper always achieves; but that doesn't mean her figures are wrong.

What will John Swinney do with several hundred million pound hole? Will they find the ways to tax more, or will it be met through more reductions in public services?
34

thinking,

Scotland 31/03/2008 06:55:12
How did the Scotsman see what, presumably, was a private letter?
Who does the leaking?
35

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 07:37:05
#40
Presumably the same person that leaks all the UK documentation from Holyrood...oh, sorry apparently the SNP adminisratration is allowed to go public on private correspondence, just not the other way roun, hypocritical or what, eh?
This is the death knell for another ill-considered and impractical nationalist 'promise' - from uncosted bribes to Thatcherite spending cuts, isn't Mr Salmond's administration just smashing?
36

,

31/03/2008 07:41:00
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37

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 07:43:24
#31
still don't understand the way an election is called? It's not the executive that calls an election outside the usual dates it's the parliament.
38

steve 1511,

aberdeen 31/03/2008 07:47:27
why does she bother to comment,her husband ed balls reply to camerons statement in the commons, that the working class in britian were being taxed at the highest level ever,was so what,meaning he does not care,but they managed to make a dual claim for over 500k in expenses last year and abused the housing allowances,the face of caring labour
39

paul o,

Wodonga 31/03/2008 07:48:15
#20, Gaffer.
Have you taken any note of the state of Italian Politics over the last 20 years. The 'state' is disfunctional, but people do business regardless of the government, including the Mafia. It could well-be the result of people who don't live there are deciding the fate of the state.
If you're not living at home, stay out of politics and let he 'locals' decide.
40

conservative,

Fife 31/03/2008 07:51:07
You can call black white but it doesn't make it grey. There is clearly a (huge) shortfall which will have to be met from somewhere else. Why can the SNP not simply admit it and say where the rest of the cash will be taken from?

(A cut in the huge unmerited salaries and expenses of the Holyrood parasites would be a start but, alas not enough).
41

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 07:52:05
Ms Cooper should receive a polite reply referring her to her MSP, who will be able to write to John Swinney and ask her questions.

Now, just exactly who is the MSP for London Central?

Barren Fool perhaps?
42

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 08:04:15
#47
Maybe you didn't read the article but our UK govt can do so because the introduction of local income tax would need legislation at Westminster to authorise HMRC to collect the new tax.
Our UK government also has the right to express its concerns if there is a threat to public services in any part of the UK. I am glad that I have at least one government who are prepared to stand up to the Thatcherite spending cuts advocated by the nationalists to fund their election 'promises'.
43

Brian M,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 08:11:18
I'm sure our councils overspend/waste at least £750 million between them each year at the moment.
44

john z,

edinburgh 31/03/2008 08:18:49
The London Labour Govenment should mind their own business.

Now, at last we are starting to see the reality of why Scotland has been kept in the 'union' for so many years, by media manipulation of public opinion and policitial wrong doing (including the mis - use of MI5 resources). All a nefarious ploy to prevent the democratic will of Scotland being expressed.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again, if this was all happening in ANY other European country, both Broon and the EU would be crying foul. This is akin to French president Sarkozy writing to Broon asking him about Alistair Darlings (massive) tax black hole.

Considering the outright fear being expressed by the London Cronies, it is clear is it not that Scotland needs England, rather it is a case of england quite desparately needing Scotland.

Ms. Cooper is a stooge.

Broon should watch out, or he might just lose his Kirckaldy (does he remember where that is??) seat come the next election.

Perhaps, John Swinney should respond, by asking Ms cooper about the London government tax black hole?? Touche...
45

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 08:22:08
#50
Perhaps John Swinney should reply properly and stop playing politics with people's jobs and services. We had enough of that in the 80s with Thatcherite rate capping and appalling attacks on local government.
46

john z,

edinburgh 31/03/2008 08:25:03
Grahamski

Nice try on the right wing theme. You may not know or remember, but that is an old jibe, used many, mny years ago in Scotland, in the days when Labour were truly socialist and stood for working class people. It is simply no longer the case.

Reality now, is that both the lib dems and the SNP, are much more socialist than 'new' labour.

I noticed Bendy Wendy make reference to this, but she is around twenty years out of date.

Labour are a very right wing party, second only to the tories in Scotland.

'New' Labour, you see. I think that chap Blair was the man responsible.
47

scottish person,

paisley 31/03/2008 08:25:59
Grahamski:
Go to bed!
I hope John Swinney does not waste his time meeting this labour munter. Who does she think she is. A broon sucker.
The SNP will not need the handouts from westminster once they get rid of the baggage that new lab brought in to run each of their councils.
48

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 08:27:10
#51
I am advocating no such thing. I am suggesting that the nationalist lies during the election campaign are coming home to roost.
Who mentioned the Scotland Act? My government has every right to defend my jobs and services if the Holyrood executive is incapable of it.
As regards the UK benefits that were wrongly identified by Mr Swinney, nothing has changed.
49

Nikostratos,

31/03/2008 08:31:04
Holyrood is a Devolved Administration. Westminster kept authority over the devolved institutions in the UK Parliament itself.And are constitutionally subordinate to the United Kingdom Parliament.The UK Parliament is and will remain sovereign in all matters.

And it is right that a minority administration with a minority of electoral votes. Should have an overwatch from the Westminster Parliament 'Its time' the Nationalist came to accept they do not have the support of all the scottish peoples. They are not in a Independent Scotland and that the majority do not want or wish for the Break up of the Union.

#51
"The legislative supremacy of the Westminster Parliament is also spelt out in the Acts
which devolve powers. Section 28 of the Scotland Act 1998 gives the Scottish
Parliament powers to make legislation. However, section 28(7) states: “This section
does not affect the power of the Parliament of the United Kingdom to make laws for
Scotland”."
50

James,

Dundee 31/03/2008 08:31:25
#3 Mr JT Peh, you forgot to say that all 'Flag Burning Bloggers would be rounded up and held at Celtic Park(to be renamed Pin O'Shea Stadium), by Commandant Brittenfuhrer Reid'.
51

walter,

31/03/2008 08:35:34
Mr Swinney is adamant that the £400 million should continue to come to Scotland, even if the council tax is axed, because it is part of the Scottish block grant.
If the CTB was part of the BG why do local councils not claim it from the Scottish government.
The reason they don't is it is not part of the block grant and never has been, Swinney is waffling rubbish.
This money is paid by the UK treasury to councils to make up the shortfall due to them reducing CT for those in their area who claim CTB.
52

Nikostratos,

31/03/2008 08:46:32
#60 Wardog

Likewise..1933??????
53

Edward,

31/03/2008 08:46:56
Why on earth are we supposed to take Yvette Cooper aka Mrs Ed Balls (yes you know the same Ed Balls that worked for Gordon Brown in the TReasury, the same Ed Balls who said 'so what' at comment about recent tax rises, the same Mr and Mrs Balls that recieve £ 600,000 a year - yeah really true socialists!)
For nice picture of the couple see - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=532989&in_page_id=1770
54

JimC,

Kilmarnock 31/03/2008 08:47:31
Local council services, Labours traditional ground for job's for the boys and the biggest waste of tax payers money. Setting aside Social work and Education which are statutory services within every local authority, the old DLO's were breeding grounds for corruption and still are to an extent. If I look back at the cuts by the old Strathclyde council in the 70-80's it was local people who suffered most of the cuts, not employees of the council. In the last audit of East Ayrshire council the housing repair service was slated as poor and unresponsive. Yet that same service is top heavy with senior managers. As for council workers don't get me started, they work a shorter day than my 7 year old grandson and do the bare minimum at that, take bin men as an example who won't even bend to pick up a plastic bag. If we need to make cuts or improve services then look to streamlining the local council workforce to provide better value for money for the hard pressed tax payers. The national minimum wage is nowhere in sight in any council within Scotland, yet everyone else is expected to work for this poverty wage.
55

Phil C,

31/03/2008 08:50:54
Why does the Scotsman continue to pass Labour spin as headline news? If Labour at Westminster are playing daft laddies with Scotland's cash, that should be the news, not that some Brown-nosed bag carrier is spouting one-sided propaganda.

When Scotland gets to set and keep ALL her tax revenues, then Westminster can grab whatever is raised in the rest of the ex-UK. Until then it is immoral and dishonest to play soft-ball with Scotland's own funds.
56

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 08:54:26
#59
Devolution I can accept, however I'll take help from anywhere if it defends me and my family from the services-slashing onslaught of the right-wing idealogues within nationalism.
Your use of the infantile ruse of misrepresenting me thus:
So you accept that the £400m is within the Scottish Block Grant?
Is pathetic beyond words and I won't dignify it with an answer...
57

Linda,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 08:56:22
Who leaked the letter?

Anyway how is Treasury going to repay the UK national debt?

At the end of March 2007 general government debt was £574.4 billion, equivalent to 42.6 per cent of GDP.
58

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 08:57:15
#69
I take it you're equally miffed at the myriad nationalist slurs against the labour party?
59

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 08:58:04
#73
I take it you were equally appalled at Mr Salmond's leaking of UK government correspondence?
60

Edward,

31/03/2008 08:58:23
But we shouldnt really be surprised that this paper is reporting this 'story' as its written by Labour writer Hamish MacDonnell, him of the Labour breifing and quoting a freind of Gordon Brown
All she is doing is stating what Brown tells her to say, pure and simple
61

Edward,

31/03/2008 08:58:50
From the 'They work for you' website :
How Yvette Cooper voted on key issues since 2001:
Has never voted on a transparent Parliament
Voted moderately for introducing a smoking ban
Voted strongly for introducing ID cards
Voted very strongly for introducing foundation hospitals
Voted very strongly for introducing student top-up fees
Voted moderately for Labour's anti-terrorism laws
Voted very strongly for the Iraq war
Voted very strongly against investigating the Iraq war
Voted very strongly for replacing Trident
62

Edward,

31/03/2008 09:00:32
#73 Linda
Letter wasnt leaked, it was given to Hamish MacDonnell by the Labour party as part of there ongoing breifing with him, with the objective of writing up stories against the SNP
63

Doh,

31/03/2008 09:04:03


We are 40 minutes away from a black hole.
64

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 09:07:16
#77
Edward, good to see you aren't straying from the topic, LOL.
Anyway, back tio Mr Swinney's black hole. What services would you cut to pay for this Thatcherite policy? I am inclined to cut services to the old and disabled. What's your preference?
65

Edward,

31/03/2008 09:09:37
#72 Grahamski
You obviously have a problem deciding what is socialist ie left wing and what is right wing
For example would you say thet the following
Abolished Prescription Charges
Saved local A&E units
Backdated the NHS pay award
Abolished student fees
Cut class sizes
Begun an expanding pilot for free school meals
Given equal rights to the children of asylum seekers
Rejected nuclear power
Doubled the international aid budget
Ended ring-fencing of council spending
Continues to condemn the Iraq war.
are right wing or socialist values
To me and everyone else they are socialist and they are what the SNP are doing
Its quite funny that Annabelle Goldie and the Tories consider the SNP very left wing, where as Wendy Alexander stood up during the weekend and spouted that they were right wing (your not Wendy by any chance?)
The fact of the matter is that the SNP are more Left wing than the current New Labour, who are no more socialist than there new best freind Maggie Thatcher!
So please stop with the 'right-wing idealogues' drivel
In the scheme of things it goes like this from left to right : SNP / Libdem / New Labour / Tory
accept that format and eveything else will make sense
66

,

31/03/2008 09:11:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
67

Phil C,

31/03/2008 09:13:25
"IN HER letter, Cooper asks the questions:

• What is the shortfall between council tax and local income tax, and how would this be met?

• Where is the evidence that local income tax is better than council tax?

• How much will administration cost?

• As it is a centrally imposed tax, how does this improve local accountability?

• How do you avoid adverse labour-market effects from higher marginal rates of tax?

• How can ministers be sure it will only impact adversely on the top 10 per cent of earners?"


Jeez, in her position she should know the answers! Fortunately, as it's none of her business, she doesn't need to know! People with a bit more intelligence and ability will set it up and she won't need to worry her wee head.
68

Buspass,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 09:13:42
#3 Jimmy the Pie: You forgot to mention all the nuclear waste down all the holes in Scotland.
69

Linda,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 09:15:12
From Lesley Riddoch in Scotsman Opinion to-day..
But if a week is a long time in politics, a political year in the doldrums is a lifetime. And despite an interesting speech from Wendy Alexander, Scottish Labour's Aviemore conference was the tin-lid. Every speech without exception revealed a party mired in denial and confusion. A Coatbridge man told baffled delegates: "We're delivering on jobs, we're investing in skills and we're investing in hospital buildings." Which "we" was he talking about? "We" in England? "We" in Labour councils? Or more likely "we" in the auto-pilot some Labour activists cannot switch off.

Harriet Harman, the party chair, revealed plans to pay benefits to grannies caring for grandchildren. We've been called the party of the nanny state – said Harriet – let's not fear being called the granny state. Happily there's nothing to fear because the SNP introduced granny payments in Scotland several months ago. A move which clearly created so few ripples it escaped the attention of the UK Cabinet completely.

Gordon Brown told us he was proud to be from Fife, proud of his school and proud – because of a Labour government – to go to university with a student grant. And therefore proud to announce the re-introduction of student grants financed by a cancelled Trident replacement or the restoration of inheritance tax cuts? Er ... not exactly.
70

Edward,

31/03/2008 09:15:50
#80 Grahamski
What the SNP propose is as about as far as you get from 'Thatcherite' policies, like chalk and cheese, black and white!
So why compare with Thatcher?
LIT will help the poor and low paid, it will help the pensioner, those on low income, for they will not pay a penny!
It will only be those who earn and are current tax payers. That sounds more socialist, but then Labour dont like getting there ideologies rubbed in their faces do they!
Labour are all for keeping the status quo, of ever increasing raetes, so that the poor and the pensioner can no longer afford to pay. Labour have dont absolutely nothing for the Pensioners in this country
So now we have the opportunity of ensuring that the low income and the pensioner can get on with their lifes without worrying about rate increases
71

Edward,

31/03/2008 09:19:21
#87 AM2
Ah spouting rubbish again, mis-quoting
why dont yoy answer comment #63?
72

Auckland Arab,

31/03/2008 09:20:38
Oh my god, it must be true then!!
73

Sedov,

Scotland 31/03/2008 09:26:44
Cooper want to look at a decent alternative to the council tax before she can bring Salmond to task. However, she is right in what she says, the SNP proposals are flawed at best and incompetent at worst. A wee bit like their party of course. So the challenge for Cooper is to devise a socialist plan for a fair council tax system -is this possible from a Brownite?
74

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 09:33:31
#88
Edward,
Infantile bluster is all very well when you are at the Inverstoorie Branch Of The Alba Liberation League, when you are in the real world it sounds very empty indeed.
The protests about local services and jobs cuts will be seen all over the country and the responsibility rests fairly and squarely with the Holyrood administration. They will attempt to blame somebody else, it is becoming something of a lief motif of Mr Salmond's administration.
Claim responsibility for things they haven't done (like cutting quangos or getting the Commonwealth Games to Glasgow) and deny responsibility for things they have (like cutting jobs and services throughout Scotland to pay for their Tory policies).
They will of course pay for this. In the meantime it's good to know that our Westminster parliament will protect us from the worst excesses of Mr Salmond and Mr Swinney's neo-Thatcherite revolution....
75

Miss H,

31/03/2008 09:37:02
They really need to decide how much the 'shortfall' is. Labour's figures have ranged from 210 million to 750 million. Does that include the council tax benefit money I wonder? It is not made clear.

The other issue is that here we have one government minister writing to another and copying the letter to the press. Not very professional really is it? It's definitely crossing the line into being party political about matters which the SNP has thus far avoided.

Although there is nothing to stop them doing it in future of course now that the precedent has been set.
76

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 09:37:29
Another day, another attempt by Westminster to pick a fight with Hollyrood.
77

bill-alba,

Fife 31/03/2008 09:37:46
am2..the tories can come up with any plan they want to, in the definite belief that they will never get the chance to implement it.
78

,

31/03/2008 09:38:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
79

Senga Jean,

31/03/2008 09:38:41
#92 Sedov that is the problem. The SNP is the answer
80

Miss H,

31/03/2008 09:42:08
87 AM2 it is unofrtunate for you that the Treasury's "Statement of Funding Policy" dated October 2007 states that council tax benefit comes under the heading of "Spending programmes forming part of the Scottish Block".

To be more specific it states that:

'The Government intends that this population-based formula will apply to changes in almost all the expenditure under the control of the Scottish Parliament and National Assembly for Wales. It will not apply to changes in agriculture programmes 100 per cent funded by the EU. The Government will also want to consider whether this approach or another formula is appropriate in relation to provision for Council Tax Benefit and Housing Benefit which will both come within the Scottish Block for the first time after devolution; Housing Benefit is already within the Welsh Block, but, as in Scotland, Council Tax Benefit will come within the Block for the first time.'



81

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 09:43:23
#94
Miss H,
The other issue is that here we have one government minister writing to another and copying the letter to the press. Not very professional really is it? It's definitely crossing the line into being party political about matters which the SNP has thus far avoided.
Will you now please condemn Mr Salmond in the same terms for leaking UK government correspondence.
82

Miss H,

31/03/2008 09:48:00
101 What correspondence has he leaked?
83

morris,

edinburgh 31/03/2008 09:50:13
29
I think you are correct.Labour would be unlikley to risk an election since they would get "gubbed" at both Holyrood and Westminster now!
However ,if they were that stupid,any party entering into coalition with them would be wiped off the Scottish map at the forthcoming Westminster election and the LIB Dems are already dead thank to Nicolarse.
The SNP strategy has been quite brilliant really ,they call the tunes and everybody dances whether they like it or not. No wonder the opposition hate Salmond.They cant compete with the man who is not so much streets ahead of them ,as not even in the same country!
84

mr angry,

ayrshire 31/03/2008 09:50:23
#83 AM2 , the Big girls blouse, appears with a load of propaganda and half truths.
85

walter,

31/03/2008 09:51:30
I may be wrong but is the Block grant (money allocated to the Scottish parliament by the treasury) and the block budget (all money allocated to Scotland from the treasury) not two different things.
86

11+failed,

the pans 31/03/2008 09:52:03
So Gordon is getting fed up with his old pal Ed Balls. Ed having made a few gaffs recently and beginning to fear that he might not be the next chancellor after all, asks the wife to write a letter to John Swinney that he thinks might ingratiate him with Gordon.
Of course, I am just a conspiracy theorist and Mrs Balls really sees herself as the "Joan of Arc" of the Scottish people.
No I didn't vote SNP, but must admit they are a breath of fresh air after years of Labour mismanagement.
87

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 09:52:16
UK govt documents relating to foot and mouth for a start....
88

brownlie,

Glasgow 31/03/2008 09:56:46
Grahamski, AM2 and Rules

Are you seriously suggesting, as Scots, that you are happy that the UK Government, in order to give the Scottish Government "a bloody nose", should withdraw £400m which would benefit Scotland?

It seems that the UK government can pay out £28billion for the benefit of Northern Rock shareholders but will not pay a fraction of that for the benefit of the people of Scotland.

Well, at least it is clear where their priorities, as yours, lie.
89

Los Angeles,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 09:59:12
"A serious blow to Salmond's local income tax."

Another extreme alarmist headline and another batch of Scotsman readers throw the paper in the garbage bin and refuse to buy it again.

Once again a Westminster politician considers the Scots inadequate to the task. More arrogance from the Spinmeisters.






90

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 10:00:06
#109

AM2 the facts are in, you are indeed a big girls blouse. Please check for further clarification.

www.howbigagirlsblouseamI.com
91

morris,

edinburgh 31/03/2008 10:03:28
42

Nationalism is right wing?

That includes communist nations does it?

You are increasingly coming over as one of the loony left who couldn't win a free gift.
Nationalism exists everywhere and everybody exists in a nation.If it were not true there would be no United Kingdom for you to oppose secession from !If you cannot understand the most simple of points that The UK is British Nationalism then there is no hope for you.

92

Mr Pink,

31/03/2008 10:03:33
Cuts in public services are already here because of the SNP's policies this will mean further swingeing cuts. Ask the homeless or disabled in Aberdeen.
93

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 10:04:54
So its on then. Well thank christ for that, because there will be no need to hold back. The challenge is clear and finally out in the open. We have the entire band of London Controlled New Labour trying to give the opinion, that it is their right to have the Scottish People do their bidding, OR ELSE.

Thats right lads and lassies, you will do what you are told in Gordon Browns new Dictatorship. I mean there Des Browne shooting his mouth off about bringing out policies for the Scottish Nation, such as his attempt in the high court in his homeland of England to have a judge silence the comments that a Coroner can make on the death of both Scottish, English and Welsh Soldiers Deaths, caused by Des Browne and Gordon Brown spending 167 billion pounds a year on Quangos that are staffed by their cronies, rather than the basic equipment needed to be a soldier in a Country where over a million men women and children have been killed by Browne and Blairs illegal war.

Rather than spending money for lifesaving equipment, like individual radios or flack jackets, Des Browne is quite happy to pay a massive legal team lots of OUR money to censor a Coroner who just reports his professional conclusions in the manner expected of him by law.

Des Browne and Gordon Brown need to be ejected by the Scottish People at the upcoming General Election. Lets not forget Brown was never Elected to the post of Prime Minister by the people of the three Countries and Northern Ireland. He is Prime Minister by default and would never have been elected on his own ticket. If he is a stand in PM, keeping Blairs seat warm, then the Blair Brown manifesto stands as a commitment by the Labour Party that they have lied on.

Vote this Scum out of Office, as they will be after the English Council Elections.
94

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 10:06:19
Brownlie,
This is getting tiresome, it's like debating with a particularly slow-witted trot: I didn't suggest that I am happy that the UK Government, in order to give the Scottish Government "a bloody nose", should withdraw £400m which would benefit Scotland" -you suggested that and it is a ludicrously obvious misrepresentation of my position.
It's really not my fault that the SNP can't count and makes promises that it can't keep. I don't support LIT for the simple reason that I believe the most effective way to collect tax is by using the widest net available to us. That means taxing wealth, income and property. The council tax is clearly in need of an overhaul. My position doesn't make me a quisling or some agent against Scotland's interests.
Your post is typical of the nationalist line that anybody who doesn't agree with them is either corrupt or anti-Scottish. It is all rather worrying and wearying.
95

Miss H,

31/03/2008 10:08:08
105 Y

es AM2 the initial document was a proposal but there have been five subsequent editions published. This edition is dated 2004. It is the 4th edition.

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/6/E/Funding_the_Scottish_Parliament_National_Assembly_for_Wales(296kb).pdf

If you read page 40 it is is headed

'Spending programmes forming part of the Scottish Block'

Domestic agriculture, fisheries and food (after devolution)
Forestry (after devolution)
Industry, enterprise and training
Roads and transport
Housing
Other environmental services
Law, order and protective services
Education
Arts and libraries
Health
Social Work Services
Other public services
ESF
ERDF
Nationalised Industries (after devolution)
Council Tax Benefit (after devolution)
Local authority expenditure

You can I am sure trace the previous 3 editions as well and they all say the same thing.

What is interesting however is that in the edition of this document published in October 2007 the list of spending programmes forming part of the Scottish Block no longer includes council tax benefit.

What I wonder could be the reason for that?


96

Tom R,

31/03/2008 10:08:10
Yvette Cooper is reported as asking "Where is the evidence that local income tax is better than council tax?"

This, believe it or not, is the silly person responsible for the introduction of HIPS in connection with the sale of houses. She ignored the evidence that they would be useless/negative in helping the housing market to operate smoothly. They have proved to be a pointless additional expense as is well recognised by all the professionals and the general public. The production of HIPS are just a further Labour tax which they are too embarrassed to do away with.

This is the price people in Scotland and indeed Britain have to pay in order that Yvette Cooper's meteoric political career is not destroyed.

Looking at the evidence, Yvette? Don't make me sick!
97

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 10:10:35
Sorry it must have been the anger towards these Neo Fascist, right wing Labour Nutters.

The manifesto of Blair and Brown guaranteed a Vote on the Constitutional change promoted by Sarkozy and Merkel. This Nutter has decided to withold that right from the 60 million who live on these islands.
98

G,

dundy 31/03/2008 10:12:08
The SNP has manufactured a hole in their budget and now seek to blame it on Westminster and the unionists (boo!!!, boo!!!!)
NOtice how all the SNPites are attacking the messanger and hte coverage rather than the message....
Pathetic and not how I want my country to be run....
99

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 10:12:14
#118
I hate to ask but...
are you being deliberatley obtuse or are you seriously trying to imply some kind of conspiracy here?
100

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 10:14:05
#115 Mr Pink,. I'm intrigued by your use of the phrase 'swingeing cuts'.

What exactly do you mean by 'swingeing'?
101

Los Angeles,

31/03/2008 10:14:49


116 - A Better Way - Edinburgh

Good fighting talk.

Don't you get tired of being taught which knife and fork to use by the sons and daughters of imbeciles?

And on that subject ...

I see the forum is filled by the self-righteous foam of Unionists with no discernable politics, each struggling to find some purpose in life. How very sad.



102

Sedov,

Scotland 31/03/2008 10:14:54
#98 Senga. As I predicted before the last election, the SNP will not be able to carry out most of the important left of centre manifesto promises because as a bourgeois nationalist party it has to compromise with the bosses and big business. This is exactly what is happening at the moment and they will move more to the right of That is the basic rule of trying to please their paymasters as witnessed in New Labour. Its all going to end in tears for you and the NATS and it gives me no pleasure to say this, but the facts speak for themselves. WA has came out with the S word ( socialism) Whilst the Scottish Labour Party's idea of socialism is different from own - its a start. Watch this space.
103

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 10:17:13
#122
Who is Alice? Are you seriously using this as an insult? What age are you, like 5 or something? Pathetic.
104

morris,

edinburgh 31/03/2008 10:17:40
111

This comment says it all in a nutshell!

WELL SAID .That is precisely the comparison we should make as it clearly shows the Westminster governments true colours.
105

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 10:18:41
Los Angles..boring, pompous and pointless...as usual
106

donald,

glasgow 31/03/2008 10:19:58
Is Hamish a Labour embryo of Doogie of the Herald?
107

Tommy Trout,

Alicante, Spain 31/03/2008 10:23:29
Nepotism apart, this is the same Ms.Cooper who was part of the Darling budget team which provided the UK with such a resounding "peoples" budget only a few weeks past. I think that the results of that attempt to put the UK economy on track is a good indication of how these comments should be received.
108

Shellfishfarmer,

shellfishfarmer 31/03/2008 10:27:31
#91 AM2. I seem to recall that the Labour and Tory discount schemes for Council Tax/water rates was a response to the SNP's LIT last May. The difficulty with the discount measures is that they look like sops to a tax which is regressive in principle. LIT is fundamentally progressive for the vast majority of voters.
109

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 10:28:10
118/127 - LOL. Miss H identifies 4 UK government documents which clearly identify Council Tax benefit as part of the Scottish block grant, then, as if by magic in October 2007 after labour lose and as Council tax benefit is being used by Labour as political football to prevent implementation of the SNP governments LIT plans, it is gone.... and AM2 calls it a "mistake" that was transcribed in 4 UK government documents from 1998-2004.

With Des Browne stating yesterday that Labour still govern Scotland, Labour's attitude is clear - bitterness, scorched earth obstructionism and an inability to engage constructively. Pathetic - and they are still wondering why they lost.
110

brownlie,

glasgow 31/03/2008 10:28:37
117 Grahamski,

Just because I do not agree with you does not make me either a "trot" or slow-witted.
I do not insult anyone on this thread. From my, perhaps simplistic compared to yourself, point of view I wonder how much Northern Rock contributed to the UK economy compared to the people of Scotland. The SNP government are not holding out the begging bowl, they are merely asking for money that is Scotland's by right.

It is obvious, even to me, that if the Lab?Lib alliance were in power that the Council Tax would be retained despite it disadvantaging the poor of Scotland.

I would suggest that the UK Government or the Inland Revenue would be better closing the loopholes that allow the rich to pay less tax than the poor. Once they have done that they can lecture us on tax-raising powers.
111

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 10:38:15
#136
I don't suggest you are a slow-witted trot because you disagree with me, I accuse you of it for using slow-witted trot arguments.
Northern Rock - what should the government have done? It is preposterous to suggest that the government shouldn't have saved the bank. To do otherwise would have been utterly irresponsible.
Who suggested a begging bowl? You did, again you attempt to misrepresent what I have said. What do you mean by 'money that is Scotland's by right?'. It is not any more Scotland's than it is England's. This is not a devolved matter, it is UK benefits funding that is being discussed here, not devolved block grant money.
Your last paragraph is little more than trotskyist sophistry and means nothing and makes no sense whatsoever.
112

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 10:39:36
136. Well said. It is sad that Grahamski cannot engage in discussion without these childish huffs and insults that typify his contributions. That he is unable to defend Labour's record, of cutting millionaire's inheritance tax while shutting Remploy factories and 4000 post offices without these constant regressions to almost incoherent tantrums is disappointing.
113

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 10:42:42
138. The FSA report on Northern Rock said that the inspection and regulation regime of the UK government was a shambles. The parliamentary committee and the Bank of England have criticised the dithering by the UK government which made the situation much worse. So the Labour government should have ensured proper regulation and inspection, and should not have dithered for 6 months making the situation massively worse, to the point of gambling £110 billion, or £3000 per head for everyone in the UK, through their own regulatory short comings and dithering.
114

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 10:42:51
#139
Oh deary me,
Here comes the trot cavalry...still defending your neo-Thatcherite SNP with smears are we?
115

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 10:43:31
140
Very good, so what should the government have done?
116

Hamish Scott,

31/03/2008 10:45:03
Bizarre tactics from the unionists at Westminster and the Scotsman. IF they make a 'flagship' policy of a devolved government unworkable then people will see devolution itself as unworkable. The consequence of that will be people turning to independence as the only viable means of self government for Scotland.
117

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 10:46:45
142
Perhaps they should have taken heed of the MP for Banff and Buchan's wise words during this 6 months?
What should the government have done? What did they dither about?
118

brownlie,

glasgow 31/03/2008 10:47:58
Grahamskit at 138

So it does not make sense to close tax loopholes for the rich. You failed to tell me how much Northern Rock contributed to the UK economy compared to Scotland.

I did not mention England once as I know that they are suffering as much as us under this Government.

You, again, brought up the "slow-witted". Are the "slow-witted" not allowed to have a point of view in your Brave New World?Did not Hitler have a "solution" for the slow witted?????.
119

PMK,

Ayrshire 31/03/2008 10:49:32
How are Scottish Labour socialist, if their London master - one Gordon Brown - has just doubled the lowest income tax rate? Wendy's socialism must really stick in Brown's gullet; Brown's nationalism must equally irritate Ms Alexander!

I refer anyone comparing the SNP to Thatcherites to the last Red Tory Conference down south (the one where Wendy apologised for the existence of democracy in Scotland),

Quentin Davies - New Labour:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Gan1_3QtT1Y&watch_response

"Send a message to all those decent Tories ... take the plunge, join the Labour Party ... it is the modern one nation vision for this country."

Wheres the socialism?

More specifically on topic,

Council Tax Benefit is not part of the block grant, but I cannot believe than anyone living in Scotland welcomes seeing £400 million snaffled by Westminster on a technicality as a way of punishing Scots for not voting Labour.
120

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 10:50:53
141. Grahamski, what "smears"?

Labour are closing 4000 post offices.

Labour are cutting millionaire's inheritance tax.

Labour are sacking disabled workders at Remploy.

Labour are cutting capital gains tax.

Labour are sacking 12,000 DWP workers.

Labour did vote with the Tories against council house building in Scotland.

Please explain which of these is a "smear" and why?
121

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 10:55:33
146. I think Labour's socialism was shown when they appointed former CBI Director General (who opposed a minimum wage) Digby to a minsterial job, their belief in ID cards, detention without trial and a preference for spending £45 billion on Trident and Iraq while closing 4000 post offices and factories for disabled workers.
122

morris,

edinburgh 31/03/2008 10:56:32
136
Again I would echo 139
Excellent contribution and its there for all to see.
He cannot as Ayrshire Scot rightly says defend the indefensible, so why he even tries is beyond me.
If he thinks he can win this argument then he really is deluded!He will get nowhere with pursuing this,and just further reduce his already diminished credibility.
The fact that he cannot see that speaks far more than anything he has said !
If the party I supported was so disingenuous I would resign my membership or withdraw support, not join in the lying anti Scottish governments game.

He would be better advised to think on where he will go after Broon is kicked out of no 10 and it could be a long long time before NEW LABOUR are entrusted with government again.The New Labour Party in Scotland will see defections to the SNP on a scale unprecedented before,and there have already been a significant number!Either that or they really are dense.
123

ehlndh,

London 31/03/2008 10:58:16
Yvette Cooper is married to fellow UK Cabinet Minister, the aptly named Edward Balls, though for whatever reason she chooses not to use her married name as a Minister.
On 25/09 2007, the Daily Telegraph reported that: ‘Ed Balls and Yvette Cooper, the husband-and-wife team in Gordon Brown's Cabinet, have been accused of "breaking the spirit" of Commons rules by using MPs' allowances to help pay for a £655,000 home in north London. Land Registry documents show the pair sold their house in Lambeth for £545,000 in April. A Channel Four Dispatches programme to be broadcast tonight discovered that they bought a more expensive four-bed house in Stoke Newington, north London. This means that, as it is considered their second home, it qualified for up to £44,000 a year to subsidise a reported £438,000 mortgage under the Commons Additional Costs Allowance.’
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/24/nrules124.xml)
Practices like these significantly reduce the amount of bang the UK taxpayer gets for his or her buck.
Mrs Balls’s query to her counterpart in the Scottish government would have greater moral force had she and her husband elected not to claim allowances in respect of their personal housing to which they may be entitled but scarcely need on their joint UK Ministerial salaries, or even were they now to elect to do so. Not many UK taxpayers get a £44,000 a year subsidy towards their mortgage. Not many even get £44,000 a year as pre-tax pay.
Mrs Balls’s UK citizenship derives, as far as I know, from birth and residence in England. She seems likely to have minimal or no interest in Scotland and its people. Her communication with Mr Swinney seems likely to have been prompted as much by a hope to create difficulty for the present Scottish government as by a true search for information on behalf of the British populace and their UK government, given the close and lengthy working relationship between her husband Mr Balls and Gordon Brown. However,
124

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 10:58:53
#145
You've had two chances to post without misrepresenting me or making infantile and puerile points. You've failed on both counts, go and bore somebody else, I can't be ersed.
125

ehlndh,

London 31/03/2008 10:59:40
(Continued from my previous post)
However, the present severe difficulties in which Gordon Brown and his government find themselves stem not from machinations by other political parties but from the views and votes of the English and Scottish peoples.
The sooner Mr and Mrs Balls and their like are voted from office and preferably from the UK parliament the better. The sooner English and Scottish parliaments with independent responsibilities for setting their own separate expenditures based on their own separate incomes are established (perhaps alongside but not necessarily under a parliament elected by all the inhabitants of Great Britain or even other areas of the British Isles) also the better, if only to prevent recurrences of missives like that from Mrs Balls to Mr Swinney.
126

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 11:00:31
#149
You think?
127

Vivas,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 11:01:40
It saddens me to see The Scotsman descend to this red-top level. I used to be a paying customer back in the day when it still had it's own voice. But I couldn't tell you the last time I forked out money to read it...

What saddens me most is it's complete misjudgement of its readership, well whats left of it anyway. This may sound pompous (sorry), but that readership is *still* for the greater part ... intelligent, questioning, insightful and politically very aware (regardless of their political leanings). That readership does NOT need to be - nor does it appreciate - being spoon fed unquestioning articles that come straight from the Labour Party spin machine. Every time The Scotsman does that, it insults and loses another reader. A Scotsman reader can still smell shoite a mile away and doesn't need patronising unthinking propaganda journalism of the type we see in this article, and far too often in this paper now.

Fair enough have a go at the SNP. In fact have a go at every party. But in doing so, lets have some restoration of analytical, critical thinking and serious journalism in this paper. If it does that, it could still save itself from its present course of oblivion. If it doesn't, well it's ultimate decline and death will be lamented by only a handul of mourners.
128

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 11:01:46
151. Grahamski, that you again for your well thought out and constructive arguments. Perhaps when Labour can be "ersed" they will explain why they voted last week against an enquiry into the Iraq disaster, and are closing 4000 post offices while cutting inheritance tax? Or is your attitude just typical of new blue Labour, above explaining itself?
129

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 11:02:11
153. Almost Socratic....
130

langtonian,

scotus 31/03/2008 11:04:11
The "chickens that are comming home to roost" have been circlling the SNP executive for some time now, have come full circle.

John Swinney may put up a brave defence of that, which has many gaps through.,While he can try to hold back the waters of inevitability by applying the tactics of the Dutch boy,who sticking his finger(or some other part of his anatomy)into the first breach in the dyke, found the incresing size of the hole,along with other gaps in the seawall defences, found it a more sensible option to accept facts,retire to lick his wounds and live to fight another day.

Any other action would be fatal.

131

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 11:07:43
157. Chickens coming full circle to the dyke, then licking their wounds? Surely mixing of so many metaphors is dangerous in one post?
132

brownlie,

GLASGOW 31/03/2008 11:09:25
145 Grahamski

Goodbye then!!!!!!
133

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 11:11:06
158. You're confusing yourself.

Should the government bail out failing companies or not?
134

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 11:15:35
I am so glad Labour have spotted a 'black hole' I'd guess they'd be used staring into one !

If £750 million less was raised from tax - wouldn't this be a good thing ? - Savings could be made from drastically reducing the number of 'employees' (who do nothing anyway) local government has as well as axing all of the silly PC projects that go on.

Infact if you did all this and returned to small government who didn't feel obliged to nanny their citizens I'd wager you'd save billions which could then be returned to core services! Up till now money has been drained from core services to pay for Labours 'job creation' (that is merely inventing jobs that have to purpose other than inventing the job) - which has resulted in a huge, expensive administration which achieves nothing productive.

For the SNP, whom I do not usually support, to suggest taxing in a fairer way that mat result in less money for the government shows great courage and the sort of inventive spirit that one used to admire in our leaders.
135

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 11:15:55
147. Posting all this on every threat, aren't we!

So you want the taxpayers to subisdise unprofitable public companies (Remploy have increased work placements for disabled people by 400%, try to remember that), you want to see councils building their ugly sprawling estates again instead of leaving the cost and risk to the private sector, you want an end to tax cuts (everyone is getting IHT cut, not just the millionaires!), you want an end to staffing reductions in the civil services.....

Taxes will never be high enough for you, will they.
136

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 11:16:28
162. The government should perhaps not say it could not find £10 million for the Farepak savers, then find £110 billion for Northern rock...
137

Miss H,

31/03/2008 11:16:56
127 I don't think that is very convincing AM2 but full marks for trying.

Also I wonder if Labour have considered the implications of their position for their own policy. Because if they are arguing that the Treasury should claw back the council tax benefit if the SNP introduces a 3% local income tax that would also apply if they brought in discounts for pensioners - the Treasury would be able to claw back the equivalent amount.
138

DanB,

31/03/2008 11:17:40
Well said no.7

Legitimate concerns need addressing, honestly and convincingly. The ugly rantings of some pro SNP posters on here betray a blinkered partisan attitude that I find worrying. I hope our Scottish government isn't as delusional as some of its supporters.
139

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 11:18:04
164. No, I just wonder why "socialist" Labour use compulsory redundancies in the public sector, and choose tax cuts aimed at the rich while refusing to back-date the police pay rise.
140

Miss H,

31/03/2008 11:19:37
164 You're confusing yourself there.

Grahamski is a unionist attacking the SNP for being right wing.

You are also a unionist but presumably think the SNP is too left wing.

Ayrshire Scot is simply pointing out that you are both wrong.
141

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 31/03/2008 11:20:17
Balls and Mrs Balls (that is Cooper, Balls's wife)each claiming thousands of pounds as second home allowances although both live in the same second home in Hackney, London. The 'so what Balls' [ when Cameron in the House of commons was criticising tax increases in the recent budget by Daling, Balls was jumping up and down shouting 'so what', and later the Labour realised that this will be a dynamite and cooked the Hansard (parliament proceedings written report book)so that it read Balls to have said 'so rich'!] had a very previlege upbringing and had private education and is an arch hyprocrite. Mrs Balls (Cooper) is equally arrogant. Both are cronies of that import we have from Kirkaldy and Cowdenbeath-Brown.
142

,

31/03/2008 11:23:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
143

Florence,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 11:26:03
Certainly there will be no black hole in the finances of Yvette Cooper and Ed Balls. How could there be with their misuse of taxpayers' money ? Both claiming the additional housing allowance for the same property. Nice work if you can get it but few can. John Swinney should tell her to mind her own business.
144

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 11:28:39
#131 Thanks AM2 I am enjoying my day, despite a bit of hidden non Kosher food in a fish dish last night I survived the night, and am embracing the day ahead with all the joys of an overexcited puppy.

As this thread has descended into the usual, 'he said-she said' mentalism as evident from the incoherent ramblings from Hamilton's finest, might I humbly suggest regulars have a look at MacWhirter's excellent column in the Herald today, available below.

http://tinyurl.com/2ztktt

Might I also recommend a look at Tom Gordon's column in The Times, where he mentions

'An e-mail from her (the WENDY) spin doctor Simon Pia in advance of her speech yesterday suggested she should model herself on Martin Luther King and John F Kennedy.'

http://tinyurl.com/2zmcjm

"I have a dweam." or "Ich bin ein Bewlinew"?
145

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 11:30:01
168. The IHT cut is a tax cut for the "rich"?!

The IHT threshold is £300,000, do you realise how many people have assets over that?! Pretty much anyone who has a house for starters!
146

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 31/03/2008 11:33:01
I would say that that Wendy Alexander should model after Winnie Mandela ( Winnie's notoriety is known)!
147

Sedov,

Scotland 31/03/2008 11:34:31
#154 Vivas One - of the problems that the left in both the Labour Party and in the sects has had for years is to blame the media for reporting news that they do not particularly like or agree with. A subjective failure of analysis as I would describe this. It seems that this disease has spread to the SNP. I am not defending the capitalist press but their role should be understood if not agreed with and the sooner the more radical of the SNP, who still harbour thoughts that the SNP is left of centre, stop blaming the Scotsman etc for the faults of their leaders the better they can recognise their own faults and deal with them objectively. ( see I do care about youse NATS)
148

Toom,

31/03/2008 11:35:54
#91 _ don't know where you get your figures. With state pension and moderate employment pension, a 3% LIT would cost me about £300 per year. My council tax (without water rates) is £1688 per year. That's a saving of over £100 per month.
149

frank mcbride,

lusitania 31/03/2008 11:42:52
To ALL NuLab/Unionist Alliance apologists.

Before you make your childish, unfounded alegations of SNP inspired LA cuts, you should read the comments of Stephen Purcell, Leader(NuLab) GCC,

"The deal was TOO GOOD TO TURN DOWN."

This was also accepted in statements by Pat Watters(NuLab), COSLA Leader.

All 32 LA administrations accepted the settlement; one would presume, for the same reason.

Now, would you like to reappraise your position? Are the cuts due to previous LA administrations Mis/maladministration or, the below, real, inflation settlement in the Scottish Block Grant?

Or will you just continue to post Westminster propaganda? I think this is more likely considering your previous post lack any integrity.
150

Miss H,

31/03/2008 11:45:45
178 The average wage is not £25k. The median salary is just under £20k.

For men the median salary is £25 but for women it is around £15k.

That is an interesting feature of this debate - everyone seems to think average earnings are higher than they are.

We are all aware of the high numbers of people who are dependent on benefits but Scotland also has a large number of people who are sometimes described as 'the working poor'. It is those people, along with pensioners, who will benefit the most from this policy. That's the thing about Labour's counter proposal of a discount for pensioners - yes, fine if you are a pensioner but will do absolutely nothing to help people on a low wage.

151

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 11:48:31
Highland Mighty @162

*Should the government bail out failing companies or not?*

Well they did in 2002....

"Environmental campaigners yesterday won the right to mount a legal challenge over the Government's £650m bail-out of the stricken nuclear electricity generator British Energy."
152

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 11:50:28
I do hope all you apologists for the new Thatcherites of the SNP will have the good grace to apologise once the scale of the cuts imposed by this discredited Holyrood administration are fully felt throughout the country.
I suspect you won't, preferring to blame others for Mr Salmond and Mr Swinney's misdeeds. No change there then.
153

Number 6,

Germany 31/03/2008 11:50:34
Well Mssssss Cooper, no one in Scotland has ever heard of you and would appreciate you keeping your big nose ouit of our affairs. The fact you are a Labour Party minister diminishes your opinion even more. Go away.
154

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 11:51:05
and more from above..

"THE GOVERNMENT has agreed a £410 million bailout for Britain's biggest electricity generator, which threatened to let its nuclear power plants go bankrupt last week."

from 2006...

"Last month the group revealed a new estimate of liabilities underwritten by the public purse since the restructuring. The costs, associated with having spent fuel treated by British Nuclear Fuels, was £5.1bn - up £1bn from the previous figure, given at its privatisation in 1996."
155

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 11:52:11
and back to 2002...

" British Nuclear Fuels, which runs the Sellafield nuclear complex in Cumbria and the Chapelcross nuclear power station in Dumfries and Galloway, has made a (pounds) 2.1 billion loss because of the huge cost of managing its radioactive waste business.

According to a report leaked to the Sunday Herald, the state- owned company is technically bankrupt, with more liabilities than assets. But the Blair government is planning to bail it out by removing (pounds) 20bn worth of nuclear liabilities - and giving them to the taxpayer. "

I was saving this for the next time a "nuclear v solar" article appeared, but whatever.
156

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 11:54:19
187. WHy did the Labour chair of Cosla and every Labour council in Scotland accept the extra cash (extra, hardly a "cut") for the SNP council tax freeze?
157

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 11:55:09
190. You missed my point completely.
158

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 11:55:57
Final quote re nuclear...

"A bail out of a privatised company could be embarrassing for the government, prompting questions as to why it should help a commercial company. "
159

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 11:56:20
192 HM

In what way?
160

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 11:58:26
191. We STILL haven't heard what Holyrood-funded services are going to be cut to cover the cost of those payments.

With SNP constantly bleating about this "tight" budget, other services will no doubt suffer. Which are they?
161

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 12:00:18
Now, now ... Leave these poor Labour supporters alone - we know their party is thick, corrupt and has anything but the public interest at heart.

Labour (and their bed fellows the Liberal Democrats) whistle a tune that says they care whilst they rip the heart of the nation out an feed it on a platter to their unions, friends and relatives. An arrogant disregard for the common public who voted them in they have - even worse for those who didn't vote for them.

Now there is so many in this country who jobs were 'created' by Labour that fair democracy is threatened. That is that peoples freedom to choose is compromised by the fact that the solution may see their job uncreated!

As a people we share one thing in common .. we must bear the weight of Labours selfish miscalculation on our shoulders once more and have their annoying tattle in our ears about how it isn't their mess whilst we muck out their sty.

I confess that I don't know if the SNP are the solution and I can't say that I agree with the agenda of breaking the union. But safe to say a new, refreshing style of politics are in town and they seem to have Lib/Lab white elephants, sacred cows, and gravy guzzlers in their sights - now someone tell me if that is a bad thing ?!



162

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 12:00:24
196. The SNP government is providing real terms increases to Scottish councils. This is not a "cut" - it is an increase in funding of 3.5 to 5% over the next three years.
163

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 12:01:09
HM

You said earlier *Should the government bail out failing companies or not?*

I took no side in the argument. I merely stated they have done this in the past. Here's another example from 2002.

Connex says it cannot afford to carry on operating.

"The government is stepping in to pay £58m to a private rail company that has said it may be unable to continue running services in the long term."

If it was right then to bail out failing companies it is right now. If it wasn't right then it isn't now. OK?
164

Sedov,

Scotland 31/03/2008 12:03:07
#195 Wardog - the fact that it was hypocritical does not alter from the fact that she was right.
165

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 12:07:34
201. The "quarter of the population" that support independence?

166

MtnKat,

31/03/2008 12:07:43
If the VAT raised here remained here then there would be no "black hole".
They're continuing to play right into Alex's hands.
167

McGinty,

31/03/2008 12:08:13
Dear AM2,
After reading your remarks for the best part of a year, I still think you're missing the point. At worst I think things are carrying on in Scotland much as before, but the Unionist parties are for a large part failing to give an inspiring vision for their future plans for devolved Scotland, nor are they providing this for the future of Scotland and England together. I think Salmond has tuned into this and thus many of those sympathetic to his cause are making allowances, knowing that at worst, he's unlikely to make a greater mess on the economy than his predecessors. The point is that under Brown and co., things may well be fine financially, but the main beneficiaries will be in the South, money will be continues to be thrown at the West of Scotland and, with the same people in charge, will be mis-spent as before. However, I'm sure you'll agree that a fairer tax system in Scotland will encourage industry and investment and everyone else concerned. The strongest argument I think is the notion that with the Scotland's oil taken into the equation, Scotland at present roughly gets out what it puts in. The 400 million would have to be weighed against that. Over the long term, if oil revenues dwindle, then you have a point, but this still fails to address the other shortcomings of the union parties which I have mentioned. No doubt these will be debated in forums like this for months and years to come. However I think Des Browne's comments are little else than propaganda.
168

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 31/03/2008 12:08:40
Nikostratos (at 08:31:04) said,
"an overwatch from the Westminster Parliament"

Wardog (at 08:33:16) spotted the arrogance,
"An 'overwatch'?????!!! - Welcome to 1984"

Though this "overwatch" is also very similar in its arrogant intent to "Overlord" 1292 Edward the First style! Can't we EVER just be left in peace?

Now, IF Wendy IS actually daft enough to push for a new Holyrood election as I hear being reported..........
169

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 12:10:33
198. So most of that 3.5-5% increase covers the costs of the CT increase.

Although that doesn't exactly leave much for increased costs in existing council spending....my question was which HOLYROOD-funded services will be cut?
170

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 12:13:31
194 - I would worry about it too much - I'm not sure they know what their point is .. in every sense of the word - they just like to make noise about stuff they think may be popular with the poor cretins who can't think beyond voting Labour - incase, god forbid, they see them for what they are !
171

Sedov,

Scotland 31/03/2008 12:22:46
#203 you get too tied up in stats my friend - 48% of the population voted for Mugabe and 51% voted for Bush who Salmond criticises every almost everyday etc etc. but its meaningless.Stop being so empirical and start talking to people like I do.
172

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 12:23:50
Wardog,
I know it's difficult and painful but you're just going to have to face up to the fact that you are not on the side of the angels on this one. The Holyrood administration are guilty here - they made the choice of the council tax freeze and cutting business rates. The issues are plain to see: given the choice Mr Swinney would rather chop services to make his tax cuts work, with the tories it was always thus - go figure.
173

,

31/03/2008 12:27:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
174

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 12:28:28
#209
Peter, that leaves me where I've always been, opposing tory cuts in local government whether it comes from the UK Tory party or our very own wee cosy SNPTory party - the end result is the same: an arrogant attack from the parties who oppose working people. I don't really care if they wear a yellow or a blue badge, if it acts like a tory, walks like a tory then it is a tory....
175

Vivas,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 12:29:55
Grahamski #213 ... and what about a red badge ?
176

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 12:30:11
211. Grahamski, can you explain how a funding increase to councils of 3.5% rising to 5% over 3 years is a "cut"?

And can you explain why the Labour chair of COSLA and every Labour run council welcome the deal?

Indeed, Labour run Stirling council even cut its council tax on the basis of the generous funding increase from the Holyrood Government - explain?
177

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 12:31:33
213. Grahamski, I note you still haven't explained why Labour voted with the Tories at Holyrood against a programme to start council house building in Scotland? Is this Labour opposing the Tories by voting with them? Cunning, but needs more explaination - care to try?
178

G,

dundy 31/03/2008 12:31:53
Pathetic - now the SNPites are calling drawing attention to the financial miscalculations of the SNP as Westminster "dirty tricks"....
NO amount of spin and blame redirection will shift this one...the SNP choose to set a budget that could not meet their spending requirements NEVER mind what they promised....Pathetic...
179

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 12:33:30
#215
Go explain your stuff to the people on the receiving end of these cuts. You shame yourself with your slavish defence of these Thatcherite rate-capping policies. We defeated Thatcher and we'll defeat the tartan version being touted and defended by people who should know better here in Scotland.
180

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 12:34:11
217. G dundy

any thoughts on why 4 Uk government papers from 1998 - 2004 identified council tax benefit as part of the Scottish expenditure block? Given that was the case when the SNP published its LIT scheme, any thoughts on why this suddenly changed?
181

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 12:35:52
218. Grahamski

so, no explanation on why Labour voted with the Tories against council house building?

As for defeating Thatcher, is that why Brown had tea with her and praised her?

Still waiting for your explanation of why Labour are cutting inheritance and capital gains tax, while closing 4000 post offices and Remploy factories - seems very Thatcherite.
182

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 12:36:05
216
Ayrshire,
That's it, deflect attention away from your job-cutting service-slashing neo-Thatcherite SNP party. Your pathetic attempts at petty point scoring only highlight your contempt for the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. As long as you can get a cheap punch in at Labour all will be well, eh?
Pathetic.
183

Vivas,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 12:37:40
#218 Grahamski ... you're stealing Wendy's best lines already !!!
184

Calum Crubag,

31/03/2008 12:37:54
#218- tartan version? Are not the Labour Party the inheritors of Thatcherism? That's what Blair said anyway. And by bringing in more privatisation into education and the NHS, spending more on war with your 'socialist' buddy George Bush and kicking out foreingers it would seem as if Labour are even more right-wing than the Tories. Not to mention your Unionist pals in the BNP and Orange Order.
185

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 12:38:00
220
Anyway, back to the missing millions in the SNP figures. Are they unable to count or are they just liars, what do you think?
186

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 12:38:15
221. Grahamski, you were talking about "council cuts" - I just asked why every Labour council welcomed the extra funding deal from the SNP, and Labour Stirling council even cut its council tax on the basis of the deal. I see no comment or response in your posts? Very odd.

187

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 12:39:16
221. "the most vulnerable in society" - indeed, you still haven't explained Labour's sacking of disabled workers at Remploy and 4000 post office closure while cutting inheritance tax? Seems like a Thactherite attack on the most vulernable - any thoughts?
188

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 12:39:29
223,
silly boy, silly post
189

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 12:39:45
It's to be expected that the Scottish branch of the British establishment would be in freak mode by now. Not only is the SNP in power but every time they open their mouths they gain more support.

Without question the daily flurry of scare stories, nearing blizzard proportions near elections, will have their effect on some of the voters.

However, actions speak louder than words and the current blizzard of positive, people centered, real SNP policies is more than a match for the written, negative articles and empty speeches of the Scottish Brits.

Proof? Every opinion poll in the UK since May 2007. People like what they see happening and ignore the doom laden prophecies of what they read or hear.
190

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 12:41:13
226
Absolutely, I utterly condemn the neo-Thatcherite policies coming from Holyrood. I am relieved that my government in Westminster will try and protect me and my family from the worst excesses of this rightwing reactionary administration.
191

Calum Crubag,

31/03/2008 12:42:06
Grahamski- here's a nice wee snippet:

A Lanarkshire Labour MSP has revealed how she used to sing The Sash at Rangers matches, in a new book to be published later this month.

Why don't Labour in Scotland rebrand themselves the 'Labour and Unionist Party' and fly the UJ? Seems strange they want to hide it all?
192

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 12:42:09
207 -- How about traveling ethnic libraries for one ? Maybe halving the health and safety department (I'm sure we'll manage fine without hard hats in the office) ? on and on the list goes ....

I'm pretty confident I, or indeed anyone with half a brain and one foot on the ground, could run through a prospectus of Holyrood funded services and get rid of half of them without anyone noticing a hoot of difference save the fact that they'd be better off !

The horrible fact is that most of out tax money gets eaten by the machine before it gets to the 'service' side of things.

What is this belligerence that stamps it's feet and says that council spending must increase? Should not the Council take a long hard look at itself and ask the simple question 'do we represent value to the majority that we are meant to serve ?'

There is no Council in the land, particularly the snorkers in the LIB/Lab controlled ones, that could look us in the eye and answer that question without wincing with embarrassment and shame at what they have done and the money that is wasted in their vain search for a PC utopia that will never exist, bar in the minds of the foolish.

They should face criminal charges as they themselves have so lavishly ushered onto directors of private companies who mismanage their finances.

Rather than it's current expensive Orwellian ambitions it is time Government in all it's forms returned into it's purpose of serving the people and providing a few core services very well.
193

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 12:43:08
229. But Grahamski old sausage, it is Labour at Westminster who are closing 4000 post offices, sacking 12,000 DWP workers, refusing to back date the police pay award, imposing tuition fees and sacking disabled workers at Remploy - while cutting inheritance tax for millionaires. It seems very Thatcherite.
194

Calum Crubag,

31/03/2008 12:44:04
#227 - aye, silly boy but you dinny answer the points. Blair loved Thatcher and Bush - harldy socialists. Wake up. Labour sheep!
195

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 12:44:27
229. "Right wing reactionary administration" - indeed, it is Labour at Westminster who favour ID cards, detention without trial, invasion of Iraq and spending on Trident instead of schools. Very Thactherite.
196

Vivas,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 12:45:35
Wendy ... saving Scottish toddlers, Scottish pensioners, Scottish puppies from the Thatcherite SNP.

Laughable !

Look at the state of the Scottish labour fiefdoms and look at the deprivation that exists there. All these years to sort it out at UK, Holyrood, regional and council level and scarcely a dent have they made in it...

But it's different this time eh ? Now they're serious eh ?

Do they think the Scottish people have the collective memory of a goldfish ? It just won't freekin' wash, it really won't ...
197

Tris,

31/03/2008 12:47:45
Grahamski #55
"My government has every right to defend my jobs and services if the Holyrood executive is incapable of it."

Are you the Queen? If so, how was dinner with Sarko the other night? (Oh and by the way, we now have a government in Edinburgh, not an executive Ma'am, you might notice that the next time Mr Brown sends you here on a good will visit.)
198

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 12:47:55
Grahamski @229

"Absolutely, I utterly condemn the neo-Thatcherite policies coming from Holyrood. I am relieved that my government in Westminster will try and protect me and my family from the worst excesses of this rightwing reactionary administration."

Afternoon Grahamski. You don't like right wing politics?

Here are some quotes about UK Labour.

1 "David Cameron has hailed Tony Blair for preserving the fruits of the Thatcher revolution." (2006)

2 He continued with "Tony Blair saw that the task of New Labour was to preserve the fruits of the Thatcher revolution - the open market economy and the end of the 'us vs them' mentality - whilst making real progress to include the excluded minority."

3 Finally he said, "Labour’s move on to traditional Tory ground had proved electorally devastating for the Conservatives. We were left opposing a Prime Minister who claimed that his aims, even his means of achieving those aims, were far closer to our own," Mr Cameron said."
199

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 12:48:41
232
Ayrshire,
Way off topic and I am not going to indulge you by pointing out your misrepresentations..back to the point.
Has our government got any right to get involved in the SNP's botched LIT?
Absolutely, the SNP brought the HMRC into this so our UK government has every right to comment, do you agree?
200

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 12:49:40
Grahamski who doesn't like right wing politics.

What are your thoughts on Berlusconi?

June 2002 "Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi has said the key to Tony Blair's success is that he has "followed Margaret Thatcher's path".
201

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 31/03/2008 12:49:54
My God! Reading the kind of verbal abuses in this family quarrel and each claiming to be more Socialist than the other,I monetarily thaought that I am reading a Venezuela's Blog with Comrade Tevez exchanging verbal
missiles with fellow comrades!! No wonder Scotland economy is so dependant on public sector and tax and spend policies. I can now understand why in my street here in London there are a dozen Scottosh families and they are hapily runing their private busineses and seem to be flourishing very well!!
202

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 12:52:13
Grahamski and his abhorrence of right wing politics

This from the Independent June 2003

"The British have become more Thatcherite under the prime ministership of Tony Blair than when she was herself in office. Blair is the Iron Lady's greatest disciple and apostle. This is the paradoxical message from the most authoritative study of changing British attitudes, British Social Attitudes, published today."

I agree with you Grahamski. I don't much care for right wing politics either. How you can stomach new labour is beyond me.
203

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 12:53:11
Tris,
I am a British citizen and I have a government in Westminster and in Holyrood I have a devolved executive with delusions of adequacy...not the same as a government...but this is for another day, tell me are the SNP just innumerate or are they unscrupulous liars?
204

,

31/03/2008 12:53:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
205

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 31/03/2008 12:53:45
My God! Reading the kind of verbal abuses in this family quarrel and each claiming to be more Socialist than the other,I momentarily thought that I am reading a Venezuelan Blog with Comrade Tevez exchanging verbal
missiles with fellow comrades!! No wonder Scotland economy is so dependant on public sector and tax and spend policies. I can now understand why in my street here in London there are a dozen Scottish families and they are hapily runing their private busineses and seem to be flourishing very well!!
{apology, previous posting had typos]
206

Vivas,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 12:54:02
I think back to that Scottish bulwark ... the 50 Labour MP's that Scotland sent down to London time and time again to (ahem) fight Scotlands corner against Thatcher and Major.

And what was the outcome from that exercise in futility ? A lot of very nice second homes and a lot of nice food, nice drink and lots of expanding waistlines.

To think in 2 years time, when Broon is staring at certain UK-wide defeat, that Labour will still have the nerve to ask us to send dozens of Labour numpts down there to (ahem) "defend Scotland".

Laughable laughable laughable !
207

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 12:55:26
#241
Peter,
Well obviously it's somebody else's fault. I'm beginning to understand this from the SNP. Never their fault, always somebody else. As they might even say themselves, take responsibility? It's time....
208

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 12:58:55
238. Grahamski, what mis-representations?

Labour are closing 4000 post offices.
Labour are cutting inheritance tax.
Labour are clsoing Remploy factories.
Labour are cutting capital gains tax.
Labour want ID cards and detention without trial.
Labour spend £45 billion on Trident and Iraq, while talking out the other side of their mouths about "cuts".

Seems all very Thatcherite.
209

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 13:00:21
247, Grahamski, old crocus, I remain puzzled as to why every Labour council in Scotland welcomed the SNP funding deal, and Labour led Stirling even cut its council tax?

Surely if the SNP funding deal was bad for councils, the Labour chair of Cosla and every Labour council would not have welcomed it?

Can you explain please?
210

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 13:03:05
Thatcher on Blair 1995

"She praised Blair as "probably the most formidable Labour leader since Hugh Gaitskell. I see a lot of socialism behind their front bench, but not in Mr Blair. I think he genuinely has moved"

John Quiggin (professor of economics)

"When Blair took office, he was generally seen as offering Thatcherism with a human face. "

Come ON Grahamski.
211

Vivas,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 13:08:46
And we're still 2 years away from the end game, where Broon and Darling (if they're still there) will have to try to buy-off Essex man (or whatever their present day designation is) in order to cling onto government by their fingernails.

That will be Labours most craven but last and most pointless Thatcherite gesture. And where will the money be found to appease Essex man ? Probably Broon will dip into our (ahem) promised "unprecedented prosperity" to throw that particular dog a bone. Well that last slight of hand won't matter too much I guess, because unfortunately for Broon, Essex mans mind is already made up on the matter. He wants to go back to the real Tories he knows, rather than the plastic Tories of the last decade.

The clock of doom is counting down for Broon.

212

John south of Soutra,

31/03/2008 13:10:13
Your Government in Westminster is more right wing than Thatcher ever was, Keir Hardie, John Wheatley and all the other mentioned by Red Wendy must be birling in their graves to hear their names mentioned by this lot, NULabour sold it's soul to conquer middle england
213

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 31/03/2008 13:11:43
Reading again your postings which is really a family quarrel, it sounds as though you would not mind a North Korean style government whatever the party with a 'strong leader' and tax people until 'pips squeak'!!
Even Tony Benn thinks that Brown is the real (Old) Labour (forget Brown and Thatcher stunt)! my reasoning is that Brown coming from your midst a Tory?
That is hilariuos!!
214

Jings Crivens,

31/03/2008 13:14:38
The SNiPers ,ust be Greek instead of Scots as they attack th emessanger instead of reading the message. it is apparent that the SNp have a major blackhole in finances due to the Local Income Tax and the government minister is only asking the Ecotish Executive to justify their policy. If they can explain to the Westminster then that's end of the story
215

The Master,

31/03/2008 13:26:07
And they wonder why they’re increasingly being branded “Tartan Tories” again! This slashing of local services to appease those in large houses and living off unearned income in Perthshire is so right wing that even the new look Tories won’t touch it with a barge pole, for crying out loud! Indeed, the threat to vital public service under the Nats has become so pressing that they’re actually to the right of the Tories on this one!
216

Calum Crubag,

31/03/2008 13:29:19
#225 - won't the poorest not pay anything at all? Sounds good. No wonder right-wing Brit Nat Labour are furious.
217

Sedov,

Scotland 31/03/2008 13:33:52
#255 The Master - At last a reasoned comment ( apart from my own of course!) that describes the SNP for what they are. By your actions be ye judged and so far, as I predicted, the SNP are even acting even worse than New Labour in power , and that takes some doing.
218

MoClana,

Stirling 31/03/2008 13:37:44
Hamish - SNP have been dealt a serious blow' ? ....sorry how do you figure this, a secretary from the UK goverment attacks the Scottish Goverments plans for local income tax...shock, horror ...they didnt did they! WOW this is a real exclusive.

Come on these are the same questions and negative stories we have heard for many months now...and i am still wating on my supposed 5k tax bill to arrive.

Isnt it strange that this letter has been leaked so soon after it being sent to John Swinney mmmmh following the Labour party Conference mmmmh followed by Hamish McDonnell article ...so many mmmmhs Did i not see you at that conference Mr Mcdonnell ?

If ever there was proof that this paper allows its self to be walked over to further the cause of Unionism than 'journalists' like Hamish and his new Labour contacts say it all.

You should rename this Paper 'The Door mat'.


219

kimba,

31/03/2008 13:39:22
24. you say that as if it were a bad thing,the post office is losing millions a week,if you haven't got anything to hide what's wrong with identity cards!
220

kimba,

31/03/2008 13:39:57
sorry that was for 248.
221

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 31/03/2008 13:53:13
Post offices closing? There are two sub post offices nearby where I live. Most of the time there is long queue there with burka clad women with prams and Rumanians and and Bulgarians collecting child benefits for their'children' in Sofia and Bucharest. There is no opportunity to approach the counters for posting parcels, buying stamps etc.. The old ladies and pensioners do not go near the post offices for fear of being abused. These post offices are serving those hangers on who Blair and Brown imported from world over. We do not want these sub post offices and neither the subpost masters who have the contract as they are sick and tired of being abused by these benefit scroungers.

About DWP. I have to fight with them for the claculations made in respect two old age pensioners next door to us, and if any one is dim wit it is these DWP clerks and their colleagues. They seem to so many of them and yet it took two months get them to read a letter and reply.. Why do we need so many of them anyway?
222

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 14:03:43
This is not a serious blow at all. They can't explain the policy until it's agreed with the Liberal Democrats. What the Labour party in Scotland should now be thinking about is their strategy for the day after independence. Yvette Cooper can intervene all she likes, but it doesn't turn W. Alexander or Gordon Brown into the kind of social democrats that Scots would want to vote for. Wendy's right that they are internationalists, just not socialist as she puts it. If she were serious about socialism she would realise that Scotland has a structural majority for the left. Gut wrenching conference speeches. I don't think many Scots are interested in how she raises her twins, which says alot for how popular she is ever likely to be. The best thing for the SNP would be for Labour to replace her with Andy Kerr, who should prove to be equally popular.
Did love the BBC focusing on MSPs who had been handed various poisoned chalices (reviews of this and that) by Wendy during her speech, expecially stony-faced Margaret Curran who looked thouroughly unimpressed by the proceedings (I don't blame her) and dear Malcolm Chisolm who was caught on camera rolling his eyes heavenward. Internal party life in the labour party must be miserable. They don't even have democratic centralism!
223

brownlie,

glasgow 31/03/2008 14:11:44
145 Jack

Hi Jack,

Surely it is better to exchange verbal missiles than to exchange actual missiles that killed hundred of innocent Iraqi - oh, I forgot, Irag did not have any to exchange with.

At least verbal exchanges are better than nuclear missiles which cost an absolute fortune, have served no purpose in the past and will serve no purpose in the future.
224

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 14:13:30
261

"Rumanians and and Bulgarians collecting child benefits for their 'children' in Sofia and Bucharest."

If you suspect fraud, then as a good citizen you should report them to the relevant authorities.
225

ehlndh,

London 31/03/2008 14:17:00
Another point (see also my posts #150 and 152) about Mrs Balls (aka Yvette Cooper) and Mr Balls is they have both as far as I know gone straight from privileged scholastic education to privileged university education and then into well paid roles at relatively early ages in political spheres never having had to compete for a job in any wealth-producing enterprise. Their contact with the reality that most of the English never mind Scottish electorate have to face daily is minimal, and it shows.
Their only demonstrated skill is to have been able rapidly to make their way in socalist political circles, which these is scarcely a recommendation.
226

Sedov,

Scotland 31/03/2008 14:17:45
#261Jack etc As someone who lives on a run down housing scheme with all the social problems that you mention and lives about 100 yards from our post office, the scene that you describe is not one that I am familiar with and strikes me as a bit of ranting more akin to the BNP. The facts are that last year 4 million people across the UK signed a petition against the closures of PO's. The National Pensions Convention who claim to support millions of pensioners are against the closures as is the National Federation of Postmasters. The Tories closed 4,500 post offices and New Labour is to close 3,500 - all because these parties are slaves to the market and do not support the right of citizens to have a service in their locality - you give credence to their anti-working class policies which thumb their nose to the democratic will of the majority. I suppose you have a car to drive you to your nearest PO or bank unlike many pensioners.
227

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 31/03/2008 14:18:11
264 brownie.

Are you saying Scots are socialists, CND and pacifists , want to get all their energy from alternative sources (what about the rest 80% energy requirement? well some one help us!). good luck!!
228

frank mcbride,

lusitania 31/03/2008 14:22:50
#257, Sedov.

You know that we agree on a great number of issues, but why do you return to you Spartacist polemic at the first sign of competent, democratic government.

I do understand that Trotskyists don't do democracy, so either lead the "bloody" revolution or, better still, put your talents to use in helping to create a Fairer, more prosperous Scotland.
Vote for an Independent Scotland, as that is the only way we are going to have a chance of creating a socially just society. First step - Vote SNP as this is the Party most likely to achieve Independence.
229

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 31/03/2008 14:23:55
#268 Wait until Salmond brings in more people that I am talkng about. Yesterday he said Scotland needs more immigration. Why do you need post offices so many in these numbers these days. Don't you have a bank? What you forget is every one who is working for a living is working not necessarily those living in a run down industrial estate and want to live there for ever to show how working class they are!

T
230

brownlie,

glasgow 31/03/2008 14:30:26
261 Jack

Sadly your first paragraph shows you up for what your really are in that it smells quite heavily of racism.

How do you know if they are Bulgarian or Rumanians - how can you tell?

Your street seems to be inordinately crowded what with the Scottish business people, pensioners and now Eastern Europeans.

My experience of London - where I lived for many years - is that very few people know their neighbours - far less identify where they come from, their businesses, political leanings etc.
231

Working in the Private Sector,

Scotland 31/03/2008 14:38:01
#7 fifi le bob bon

You seem to suggest that reform of the public sector would be a bad thing

Lack of performance deliverables
Overmanned
Pension entitlement at final salary
Divorced from economic reality
Too many levels of Management
Patronage

I'm not political in any shape or form, made a conscious decision to stop voting 4 years ago as I struggle to see any mandate or right to govern in the "Political classes".

In the last six months I have met J Maher on maybe 3 occasions at a variety of business forums. On each occasion he has spoke well about the need to reform public services and bring P+L accountability to their activities.

More importantly he listened to the opinions and views of the business people at those events. This is probably more an endorsement of J Maher rather than the SNP.

My overriding view is that it is shameful that these powerful initiatives which are vital for our growth and development become political footballs for party apparatchiks on all sides.
232

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 31/03/2008 14:46:35
#272 and #273 Bit rich oming rich from Scots who hate English because they are English. Well you get along with immigrants? What about the stories we get from Glasgow where the asylum seekers were beaten up. I have seen places in Glasgow where Pakistanis live in numbers and no white Glaswegian want to go there. Perhaps you should ask them why they are beaten up now and then? Wait until your Salmond gets more of them or we should off-load them on to you. Many needs housing, how about constructing a few new blocks near your run down estate
and a couple of mosques may be.
233

brownlie,

glasgow 31/03/2008 14:47:23
269 Jack

If by socialist you mean fair-minded and with concern for their fellow human beings, then yes, I do believe that my fellow Scots are, by inclination, socialists.

If by CND you mean that they are against nuclear weapons I do think that the majority are and, by the same token, the opposition, in Scotland,to the war based on a Prime Minister's lies shows, IMO, that most Scots are pacifist by nature.
234

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 14:53:47
273. That might have something to do with the far lower population density compared to London? Over double the population is a tiny fraction of the space?

Saying that, your description of London is pretty far off the mark. Tower Hamlets, the very centre of immigration in London, is motoring along quite peacefully.

Maybe you just needed to get some of that seething anti-Englishness out of your system?
235

okanaganguy,

kelowna, b.c. canada 31/03/2008 14:55:29
#20 Gaffer: Why should someone who resides in Canada expect to be allowed to vote in Scottish matters? Do you excercise your right to vote in Canadaian elections? I, for one do not want anyone other than Canadians voting in our elections. Regards
236

brownlie,

glasgow 31/03/2008 14:57:12
275 Jack in the straight jacket

Any views you post on this site are invalidated by your blatant racism and I for one will not respond further so as not to encourage you to voice your opinion.

I am surprised that you are still allowed on here.
237

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 15:01:18
264. Do you seriously believe it is our armed forces that are using suicide bombers, IEDs, mortars etc. to kill innocent Iraqis?

Is this what the SNP are saying nowadays??
238

Miss H,

31/03/2008 15:01:40
255 Master and 257 Sedov.

The SNP's proposal will bring the greatest benefit to those at the lowest end of the income scale. Those who are at the upper end of the income scale will pay more. Given that there are many more people on low wages than there are high earners that means that most people will pay less.

Whichever way you cut it, under the present system of council tax people on a lower wage pay a much higher proportion of their income in council tax than high earners. In other words the poor subsidise the rich. It is therefore a regressive tax. The SNP's proposal will make it more progressive - it won't turn it round so that the rich subsidise the poor (as I suspect Sedov would like) but it will mean that the burden of taxation is shared equally among all those who pay taxation.

You can of course criticise that - and many unionists have as they generally support the system of council tax as it is - but base your critique on what the SNP's proposals are - not what they are not.

239

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 31/03/2008 15:08:47
#279 Brownie truth hurts. if Scots hate English just because they are English or if SNP politics is clothed in unionism an euphemism for not liking English shall we say or if I point out you are no angels when it comes to accommadating other races by just looking at the incidences happened in Glasgow involving asyslum seekers you would not like it. I am reading most of the blogs here posted by so called nationalists who blame this paper accusing it to support unionism forgetting that papers have a duty to inform and exhibit a kind of 'bunker syndrome', you too are`allowed in here.
240

brownlie,

glasgow 31/03/2008 15:15:13
280 - Highland Mighty

No, I am not saying that as, I suspect, you are well aware.

The soldiers in Iraq are doing what they were told to do by politicians who have been found to be liars.

The reason I said hundreds instead of hundreds of thousands should illustrate that I am talking about the beginning of the war where Bagdad was bombed and blitzed by UK and USA forces.

The flashes behind reporters were not Iraqis letting off fireworks to celebrate liberation it was men, women and children being maimed and murdered.

The vacuum left by this illegal war has now led to the carnage and imminent civil war in that poor country.

241

Grahamski,

falkirk 31/03/2008 15:20:23
284
How is it illegal?
242

,

31/03/2008 15:20:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
243

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 15:23:43
286
If it offends you so much just don't read it...
244

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 15:25:10
I heard a few representatives from conference say that they lost because they focussed too much on negative politics and not enough on way forward.

Seems that lesson not been learned?

Brownes final comment above is dangerous, attempting to diminish in Scotland the standing of the Scottish Parliament.
245

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 15:25:57
287. LOL!

Why are they here if they dislike the paper so much?!

Would you go to a restaurant which consistently serves bad food?!

They're insane!
246

Calum Crubag,

31/03/2008 15:28:13
#289- that's the NuLabour jugend spirit HM! Only have people who are 'on message'.
247

Calum Crubag,

31/03/2008 15:30:24
HIghland and Mighty - are Labour still socialist? Is George Bush? Is an illegal war on a third world country socialism? And do you all pray together?
248

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 31/03/2008 15:34:55
#7 fifi

It may not be intentional on your part fifi, but you sound very much like a Labour troll to me.

If a sensible economic debate leaves you "terrified" then I suggest you leave the thinking to the grown-ups.
249

brownlie,

glasgow 31/03/2008 15:35:02
284 Grahamski

You ask how is it illegal.

At present, Tommy Sheridan is facing court because it is alleged that he told lies that influenced 12 members of a jury.

Tony Blair blatantly lied to influence not only Parliament but also millions of people in this country. However the result of his illegality costs countless lives.

So why should one be brought to court and not the more serious offender.
250

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 31/03/2008 15:38:00
#285 Grahamski

I assume that you are still not ready to enter serious debate.
251

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 15:39:16
291. Labour stopped being socialist when socialism finally croaked as a sensible and progressive ideology.

The nats on here clearly resent being corrected all the time by us unionists....well, as repeatedly whinged about, this is a "unionist paper" so why come here?

Go find a nationalist rag and whinge, moan, rant and rage to your heart's content there plus you can also make as many bizarre and ridiculous claims as you like with no fear of correction and humiliation whatsoever!
252

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 15:47:02
I'd still like to know the logic behind the nat claim that "Scotland pays for the entire cost of Trident" though!
253

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 15:47:48
Even the nat bible that is 'The Great Deception' says it!
254

Sedov,

Scotland 31/03/2008 15:49:37
#292 - I made up my mind 26 years ago when I left the SNP - they are Tartan Tories of that I have no doubt and their actions so far have confirmed my belief.# 296 highland whatever - With apologies for sounding patronising (and you are trying) but if you do want to learn about life and politics then read beyond the capitalist press, talk to people in the housing schemes of the big cities like I do and you could do a lot worse than follow my posts.
255

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 15:56:08
Grahamski @285


"How is it illegal?"

This is awkward. For every lawyer versed in international affairs who says it was illegal, there are equal numbers saying it was legal. My only beef is that parliament was asked to vote on something that turns out to be false (WMD / 45 warning).
256

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 16:16:29
Hoos poos Spooky!

You forgot to mention the following:

The Scottish GOVERNMENT government has;

appointed a Council of Economic Advisers to advise on raising Scotland's sustainable growth rate

reduced the size of the central government

advanced the world's biggest innovation prize for renewable energy

introduced legislation to make higher education free

lowered business taxes to spur economic investment

and launched a national conversation on independence.

And they've done it DELIBERATELY!
257

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 16:23:14
300. There is no basis for calling it 'illegal' as there is no international law to apply.

I still believe it was right to remove Saddam as he was the most unstable leader in the most unstabel region of the world.

That the actual planning was so disastrously abysmal is what infuriates me. 'War-Lite'? Idiots!

Our forces are now down to just one base outside Basra, with the entire south of the country back under Iraqi rule. Also the Iraqi forces are all-but controlling the militias on their own (one artillery operation was all we contributed in this recent fighting).

The Americans recently made a major change to their strategy (which is apparently very similar to the UK strategy perfected in NI) that has already shown marked success.

And as for the WMDs; he used them to massacre the Kurds so he did have them and he threatened to use them during both the Gulf War and this war. Also inside sources who were talking to our government 'confirmed' that they did exist. 17,000 tons of chemical pre-cursors had been shipped to Iran in the 80s and 90s. A UAE based firm had sent 4,500 tons of VX, sarin, and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq. The Supergun pointed at Israel was expected to be used for chemical weapons....

Saying that, the issue of WMDs does not matter to me. He had them in the past and he either destroyed them (in which case he should have opened every door to the inspection teams instead of restricting their operations) or he had them hidden somewhere in that vast country.
258

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 16:25:10
#300
Exactly. The trite empty rhetoric employed by the nationalist posters debase the language and any notion of debate. 'Illegal' war means nothing but seems to impress the gullible. Interesting that it is rolled out at every opportunity by the nationalists, they obviously fully understand that to debate the SNP's administration without recourse to attacks on Labour would mean defending their atrocious cuts.
This article is about the nationalist's serious miscalculations over LIT and the UK government's concerns. The liberation of Iraq has nothing to do with it but the nationalists obviously feel that they can score some cheap points so that's why we've got to wade threough the kind of infantile verbiage usually found at a student union.
259

Vivas,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 16:25:12
#305 ... is that you *Tony* ???
260

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 16:31:10
307
So tell me Vivas, how many in the SNP supported the stationing of British troops in Ulster? Did you?
261

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 16:31:27
Highland Mighty @ 305

Thanks for giving your thoughts on this. I only posted my bit when someone asked "why was it illegal?"

You have your take & I have mine. If leading international lawyers can't agree, all our posts on this would just be quoting what both sets are saying.

Back to topic. I wouldn't pay much attention to Yvette Cooper. She advocated building houses on flood plains. Her proposal came out in the same week that much of England was under water.
262

Upandunder,

31/03/2008 16:32:38
Spook in Leith.

Sorry, but "free" this and "free" that is not the way forward.

Make something free and it loses its value.

In any case, we should be educating parents to provide their children with breakfast! Children have to get out of a mindset that that state will provide them with everything, thus make them more likely to reach 16 and just reach out a hand....
263

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 16:33:03
306. WHat "atrociuous cuts" - as the SNP are incerasing the real terms budget for local authorities by 3.5% to 5% over the next three years, why is this a cut?

And if this is a vut, you have not yet explained why the Labour chair of COSLA and every Labour council welcomed the SNP funding deal?

Perhaps when you say "cuts" you are getting confused with 4000 post office closure, 12,000 DWP staff being axed, refusals to back date police and NHS pay deals that Labour are implementing?

264

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 16:34:49
Grahamski 306 "The liberation of Iraq has nothing to do with it (LIT) but the nationalists obviously feel that they can score some cheap points"

...then on 309, "So tell me Vivas, how many in the SNP supported the stationing of British troops in Ulster? Did you?"

WTF?..a bit bi-polar no?
265

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 16:35:52
#294
As I thought. Groundless bluster.
266

Upandunder,

31/03/2008 16:36:09
On a more positive note, slashing business rates is good. Also, when independent, let's take a leaf out of Eire's book and all but abolish corporation tax.

How great it would be to see US/Japanese/Chinese etc firms flock to Scotland to make full use of the nation's huge potential. If this were to happen, let's abolish unemployement benefit for those who refuse to take one of say, three, jobs offered to them.
267

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 16:37:48
Back on topic about trusting Yvette Cooper. This from 2000

"Public Health Minister Yvette Cooper has become the first serving minister to admit smoking cannabis but Tony Blair has confirmed he is against decriminalising cannabis."

I hope she was off the stuff when she referred to "a £750 million black hole."

Maybe she was riding her giant white swan at the time.
268

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 16:39:02
314
Here we go again, Ayrshire go tell it to the people the Holyrood administration is hurting. Deal with the issues - the nationalists have been caught out and your only recourse is petulant attacks on Labour. The SNP are being seen for what they are - neo-Thatcherite boot boys with an agenda set on dismantling our local democracy. But you keep greeting on about Labour, get a grip...
269

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 16:39:16
316. Weird that 'freedom of information" New Labour continue to ignore the Information Commissioner's instruction to release minute relating to Iraq? Odd, that "transparent government" Newe Labour have refused to publish the Attorney General's first paper on the legality (lack of) the Iraq invasion.

A cynic might think that new Labour are not really into freedom of information and transparency, except they did publish those sexed up dossiers full of lies about WMD.
270

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 16:39:38
314. But where has the money come from to pay for the freeze?

Which Holyrood-funded services have seen their budgets cut?
271

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 16:41:46
Back on my "I wouldn't really bother too much what she says"...this from 2007 (I should have catalogued these). My capitals.

"The government had a "bunker mentality" on Home Information Packs prior to Tuesday's policy climbdown, the Council of Mortgage Lenders (CML) says.

On Tuesday the government delayed their launch as a result of LEGAL PROBLEMS.

The CML said housing minister YVETTE COOPER had not managed the plans well and must "learn from mistakes."
272

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 16:41:58
315
I know but sometimes it gets so weaisome listening to their self-righteous cant that it gets right on yer...
273

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 16:42:45
#308 Ahoy hoy Spooky, yet it appears poor old Oscar MAC apfel was shown the door after only two posts yesterday.

Not sure which it was. One suggested that AM2's trip to Homebase was the saddest thing he'd ever written. The other for suggesting that an angram of Stefania Alvarez was Eva ze An*l fis*er. Ironically as the anagram was only discovered on Saturday, it's sprinkled liberally through Saturday evenings conversation, mucha to the dribbling discontent of Fistania.
274

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 16:42:45
320. Grahamski - you talk of "cuts"? I ask simply, when the SNP are increasing the funding to councils by 5% and every Labour council has welcome this funding deal, what the "cuts" are? Indeed, a Labour led council actually cut its council tax - why did a Labour council do this if it had insufficient funds for services. Please explain without your rather silly and hysterical references to "boot boys" - that just makes you appear to be an incoherent, ranting buffoon who can't address a single factual point.

Now - tell us why every Labour council, and the Labour chair of COSLA, welcomed the SNP funding deal which increases real terms funding?

Then tell us why Labour are closing 4000 post offices while cutting inheritance tax? Seems Thatcherite?

275

brownlie,

glasgow 31/03/2008 16:43:21
314 Ayrshire scot

You are wasting your time, pal, as Highland Mighty and his alter ego Grahamski work on the principle that if you tell lies often enough some gullible clown will believe it.
276

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 16:44:26
317. And with Corporation Tax bringing in about £3bn a year in taxes, which services would you cut to pay for abolishing the tax, in part or in whole?

I totally agree CT should be slashed by the way but I'm curious as to which services you are happy to see cut.

I would cut the student subsidies so they are motivated to complete and pass their courses instead of seeing it as a free 3-4 years off.

I would also allow tuition fees at uni's so they can again compete with other UK and international institutions.

I would also cancel this 'free prescriptions' gimmick which is totally unnecessary seeing 92% of all prescriptions are already free. All this does is give the wealthy free prescriptions too.
277

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 16:44:29
321
That's right Ayrshire keep blathering about anything but the real issues - the SNP Thatcherite plot to undermine local democracy and hurt the weakest in our society and the fact that Mr Swinney seems incapable of counting....
278

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 16:45:30
328. Talking of which....."Scotland pays for the entire cost of Trident"?
279

oddoneout,

31/03/2008 16:46:55
what have labour done

someone please correct me if I'm wrong (I'll rue that one)but as I remember it, the first two pieces of legislation that were put through by Labour in the scottish parliament were overturned, because they broke international law. So I'll give the SNP their chance to make mistakes. But at the end of the day, like most people, the mmoney in my wallet votes. People putting it in get my vote, people taking it, get voted against. Nobody here is actually showing us or telling us how we can make Scotland a better or richer country, just how bad the other side is.........if you're not part of the solution......
280

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 16:47:34
328, Yes, Grahamski's posts do seem to typify Labour's arrogant, dog whistle approach to politics. Des Browne telling us Labour still govern Scotland, and Grahamski actually thinking people are stupid enough to believe Labour on anything, when they lie about reasons for a war. Must be dreadful for Grahamski, struggling to contain his hysteria and despair as the SNP has a huge lead over Labour, Salmond is 75% clear of Alexander, and all he can offer hysterical "boot boy" references to deflect from Labour's Thactherite, Trident buying, inheritance tax cutting, Remploy factory and post office closing programmes.
281

Vivas,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 16:47:41
#309 not a scoobie becuase I'm not in the SNP for starters. For seconders I think I was about 10 when it all kicked off there so didn't have an opinion (too busy playing Ker-plunk at that age I'd think).

FWIW and since I'm not bound by party politics, yes British troops should have been stationed in Ulster. But to draw any kind of parallel there with a US-driven invasion of Iraq led by a half-wit US president on the most specious of claims truly beggars belief !

The fact that so a compliant Labour party swallowed Blair's shoite on this is what led me to abandon Labour *LONG* before the Scottish elections last year...
282

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 16:48:43
330. WHy did every Labour council and the Labour chair of COSLA welcome the SNP funding deal then? You are making a bit of a fool of yourself, but do carry on.
283

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 16:48:48
328
what about 'Scotland is an occupied country run by a foreign power'? Any gullible fool stupid enough to believe that?
284

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 16:50:46
336. Thats sounds a bit foolish indeed, almost like "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction ready to use at 45 minutes notice".
285

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 16:51:05
335
Ayrshire,
Anyway now you've got your attacks on Labour out the way, what about those missing millions then? Incompetence or lies from Mr Swinney?
286

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 16:53:33
320
I think it is the labour party leadership and careerist hangers-on therein that have transformed into neo-Thatcherite boot boys. Have a look at Iain MacWhirter's piece in the Sunday Herald yesterday. Says it all really, and most people know it, including ordinary voters who are shifting from Labour to the SNP while the red on the electoral map contracts. When core labour-voting working class pensioners from central Scotland start voting SNP (which they already have and will do in droves in Paisley next chance they get), then the labour party knows that it has a very high mountain to climb, and may never make it back. Voters in Scotland see Wendy's new left turn for what it is - a piece of electoral marketing, certainly not genuine or based on conviction. Will the labour party ever be a party of the left again ? - I doubt it. Luckily the left wing support for the SNP and the Labour party have got plenty in common - they both hate the labour leadership. A good start for the reformulation of the post-independence party system with a dominant social-democratic party at its core. Let the English have their 'personalised' budget-capped NHS if they want. We'll have a welfare state.
287

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 16:54:03
338
Keep going, this will comfort those in our society paying for Mr Salmond's arrogance with their services. At least they will know that although they don't have any services their FM is politically pure and blemish free.
288

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 16:54:44
339. What "missing millions".

The SNP costing plans for the local income tax assumed the government would pay £287million, with the £450 million in CT benefit - making £737 million. Labour seem to be saying the policy will cost that, but want to remove the CT benefit from the Scottish block grant.

The issue here is why Labour, in petulance and panic as their poll ratings fall faster than your ability to explain why every Labour council welcomed the SNP funding deal, think taking £450 million from the Scottish budget is a good thing?
289

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 16:55:56
#320 "neo-Thatcherite boot boys" Grahamski


Oi Cant, as a veteran of several anti-Thatcher marches throughout the period 1979 till the blessed day in 1990, I take considerable exception to your description of SNP supporters.

Of course were I a Thatcherite boot boy I'd take considerable pleasure in kicking your cant in, then piddling all over you, for good measure. .
290

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 16:55:59
330. Grahamski, you have not explained why if the SNP funding deal for councils is bad, every Labour council and the Labour chair of COSLA welcomed the deal. Please do so.
291

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 16:56:28
336 The "Where is my £5000 tax bill?" claim which was obviously (well, it was to everyone else) about the costs of independence.

I think it is an under-estimate too. 40,000 shipbuilding jobs down the toilet, another 10,000 at Faslane...

The recent corker was "40%+ support independence" when there is Salmond himself saying it's "about a quarter of the population".

292

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 16:58:12
341, The cost of Labour's Iraq disaster is £9 billion - that would have kept open the Remploy factories providing jobs for disabled workers, paid the police and NHS pay deals, and funded the post office would it not? WHy do Labour prefer spending on wars and Trident then sacking disabled people to pay the price. Very Thatcherite.
293

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 16:59:51
330. Grahamski, why when money was so tight in Edinburgh, did the Labour MSPs and Labour group on the council vote for a £500 million tram scheme?
294

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 17:06:01
330. Grahamski, you have still not explained why, if the SNP funding deal was so bad for councils, the only council to actually cut its council tax was a Labour council. If we accept your blurb about "cuts" surely this Labour council is totally irresponsible in reducing its budget further? EXplain?
295

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 17:07:34
350
No, they're not immune to mistakes, you're right about that, but on balance they are doing well. If you take all of their months in office so far they negotiate a classic social democratic line.
UK polls -mm. Gordon Brown himself is not unassailable, that could change, but it's still a long way back for them. There must be labourites in Scotland who realise that the game is up, that things have changed and that Scottish social democrats don't want to be held to ransome forever while the third way experiment runs its inevitable course.
296

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 31/03/2008 17:08:27
More control freakery, it has nothing to do with Mrs Balls, it's a devolved matter.

This is yet another indication of Westminster picking fights with the Scottish government.

It's also a sure sign that they know that Labour's Scottish branch is just not up to dealing with the SNP, so they are trying to do it for them.

Some people just never learn, thankfully!

297

Hamish Scott,

31/03/2008 17:08:41
Grahamski and Highland Mighty - Since you're both here I'm curious to know your beliefs on the following - Do you think an independent Scotland could prosper? A straight yes/no will suffice though further comment welcome.
298

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 17:09:12
Grahamski, 350 is another batch of examples.

349. The tram budget was the Barnett for Crossrail Just because you disagree doesn't mean it isn't true.

I can understand the confusion though; a major public transport project in the capital......and crossrail.
299

Jordan Steele,

jacuzzi 31/03/2008 17:09:27
#351 Ayrshire Scot.

You tell that bawah. If i ever met him i would head but him into Wenday Alexanders soiled pants.
300

frank mcbride,

lusitania 31/03/2008 17:10:17
OK! One more time, to put to rest the LIES, DECEIT, DISSEMBLING & BLACK PROPAGANDA of NuLab apologists.

SBG = +1.8%
LA BUDGET ALLOCATION = +/-5%

On the above: Stephen Purcell(NuLab), Leader GCC, "This settlement was TOO GOOD TO REJECT."
Pat Watters(NuLab), Leader COSLA, "The Concordat returns Local Accountability to LAs."

LIT.

The SG accounted for a £280m shortfall to be met by efficiency savings. Therefore, overall MAXIMUM shortfall: £280m.

The SG expects the £400m CTB to continue: Westminster records shows this in the SBG (1998-2006). Mysteriously??? in 08/2007, after the SG commitment to LIT this £400m DISAPPEARS from the SBG. Is this a 6yr. TYPING ERROR?

With LIT, which is based on ability to pay, the poorest in our society will benefit most. This is progressive taxation.

Yes, their will be anomalies, but these are ALL caused by the allowance tax system, employed by Westminster, which is set up to benefit the richest in society.

Unfortunately, the SG has no control over the overall tax system, so cannot make the changes necessary to create a truly fair system, but, within its remit it is taking the first steps with the introduction of LIT.
301

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 17:11:48
Highland Mighty @331 back off-topic

"Talking of which....."Scotland pays for the entire cost of Trident"?

1. Off-topic
2. Who said that?

302

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 17:13:41
355, No I refer to the budget for the Trams paid for by Edinburgh city council. If as Grahamski says money is tight for councils, this seems reckless of Labour. Similarly, I cannot understand why if Grahamski is right and the council budgets are cut (even though they are being increased) Labour-led Stirling would actually reduce its council tax? Very odd.
303

Nikostratos,

31/03/2008 17:19:26
#357 frank mcbride,

"With LIT, which is based on ability to pay, the poorest in our society will benefit most. This is progressive taxation"

Do tell how Frank..........What is this fair system is and where have the snp stated they will implement it.
304

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 17:20:15
I think Scotland's share of Trident is £3billion, but this is off-topic so I won't post it.
305

Wee Fifer,

edinburgh 31/03/2008 17:20:31
357
Excellent post. I will almost certainly pay more under this progressive taxation, but progressive taxation is definitely a price worth paying to live in a fairer society. Wendy called it a "tax on work" in her Scotsman opinion piece a few weeks ago - actually it's a tax on earnings. Isn't that the point of tax.
Can the blogging lackeys of the labour leadership say what local taxation policies they would follow if anomalies such as untaxed income from certain categories of the rich could be collected if the Scottish government had its own independent fisc? Would they still stick to the Council Tax? And will we nostalgically seek to protect services for the homeless - an astonishing moment in her speech when the ludicrous lie that is her progressive politics became evident - shouldn't the goal be to eradicate homelessness altogether. Back to the drawing board for them.
306

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 17:22:44
354. It will trail behind the rest of the UK for a considerable while at least and there is absolutely no guarantee it will eventually overtake. The UK is an economic success story despite all the nats will have us believe.

The SNP is banking everything on the oil which will be trickle by 2020, just 3 years after the SNP's current target date.

Well, oil is out and finance is in and the SNP now want to cut Scotland off from the biggest financial centre in the world.
307

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 17:24:09
358. Do you agree or disagree with it first?
308

Hamish Scott,

31/03/2008 17:25:50
#365
Highland - Thanks for your reply, can I take that as a yes?
309

Publius,

London 31/03/2008 17:26:05
#343 Ayrshire Scot (and others)

The issue of council tax benefit might not be as straightforward as you seem to think. Council tax benefit means that some people do not pay the full rate of council tax on their houses.... but under LIT these people may well have to pay the extra 3 pence in the pound on income tax. I suspect that neither Swinney nor the Treasury has worked out - or can work out - all the implications of this.
There is at least one other unresolved problem - the 40 per cent tax band. A narrow reading of the Scotland Act suggests that the Scottish administration cannot levy an extra 3 per cent on the 40 per cent rate. Swinney assumes that he can raise the 20 per cent rate to 23 per cent and the 40 per cent rate to 43 per cent.
Cooper - I have no love for her or her party - is right about one point. A single rate of income tax is not a LOCAL income tax at all: it is a national tax and, as such, removes local accountability. A LOCAL income tax rate would be set by districts and vary from district to district.

310

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 17:29:03
363. If that is 8% of the total cost then that's about right.

Anything else is yet more psychotic nationalist propaganda, wouldn't you agree.

By the way, every nat on here will know the source as they read it most days.
311

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 17:31:50
369. It's obviously not just about whether oil flows at all, but how much.

And the oil markets have it down to 10-20% of current production by 2020. We are already a good few years beyond the peak.

The North Sea has one of smallest reserves of all the world's fields.

Anyway, I'm off to the pub.
312

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 17:36:22
Highland Mighty @371

"Anyway, I'm off to the pub."

Toilet cleaning duties?

;-)
313

Miss H,

31/03/2008 17:37:13
365 The SNP isn’t banking everything on oil. Boring unionist stereotype no.3.

The case for independence is not dependent on oil – although the situation with oil is a very good example of the need for independence. An independent Scotland would have been able to use the oil revenues to set up an oil fund as practically every other oil producing nation has done, meaning that the economic benefits of oil will last long after the oil itself has run out.

Of course the UK could have set up an oil fund as well but it chose not to and we all have to live with that lost opportunity. How many more opportunities will Scotland lose because we do not have the powers to decide all policy at home? Our renewables potential is vast but can we trust London to manage that potential wisely? On the basis of how they have managed the oil the answer is no.
314

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 17:42:22
*************NORTH SEA OIL*************

A COUPLE OF SNIPPETS FROM AN ARTICLE WRITTEN IN 2004 (before prices went through the roof"

1. An independent oil company says that more than ten billion barrels of North Sea oil could remain untapped.

2. The UK Offshore Operators Association has said there are plans to extract less than half the oil thought to be left in the North Sea

315

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 17:43:50
According to the Scottish Executive (as was in 2003),

"Rumours of North Sea gas and oil's demise have been greatly exaggerated – far from being on the brink of petering out, we've another 30 years' reserves to look forward to."

So we're OK till 2033.
316

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 17:44:11
Spook,
Good of you to answer the scare stories about oil too. Keep it up. For my part, well, I'm nearly breathless with fear that we'll all starve. we'll starve when we're devolved if we try to change to local income tax (look that nice Yvette Cooper just waved the stick at us) and we'll starve when we're independent because the country's fragile future rests with oil (#371). I'm afraid all of this is putting me off my tea, I might not even have the stomach for Reporting Scotland's subtle use of opprobrium as the tone of voice of choice in reporting SNP government initiatives.
To # 371: SNP policy on economic management after independence does not rely solely on oil. The government believes firmly in sustainable development, which means that it is not putting all of its eggs in the same basket. Renewables will be a big part of this.
317

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 17:47:31
356 - I got a picture of you on my fridge
318

Saruman,

31/03/2008 17:48:59
#374 Miss H: An independent Scotland would have been able to use the oil revenues to set up an oil fund as practically every other oil producing nation has done, meaning that the economic benefits of oil will last long after the oil itself has run out.

If I may proffer an analogy, this is a bit like the 55 year old who has failed to make adequate pension provision as a result of having to pay the numerous expenses of everyday life. I take it from this that you’re admitting that we’re up the Khyber when the oil eventually runs out in 20 to 30 years time? I know that this question is unanswerable and that the only recourse Nats have is to refer to Scotland’s abundant natural resources and how the economy will grow post independence etc. Well, pull the other one: it’s got bells on it!
319

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 17:51:57
379. Indeed, makes you wonder how all those other small European nations like Switzerland, Belgium, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Sweden and Ireland all get by without oil. Ofcourse, they all do, very successfully, but because of the Unionist logic, Scotland is unique in being unable to run our economy with or without oil.

If I may profer an analogy, its like offering someone £6 billion a year for 20 to 30 years, and the person says "Naw, I don't want that £180 billion, coz it will run out in 30 years".
320

Miss H,

31/03/2008 17:59:12
379. No. The Scottish economy is not dependent on oil. The point I am making is that the UK Government has mis-managed that resource - a resource that could have made an enormous difference to Scotland over the past 30 years.

I am also contrasting the management of a Scottish resource by Westminster with the way that other oil producing nations have managed their oil revenues. They have invested them so that the benefits will continue to be felt by future generations. The UK Government has not.

That is just one of the reasons why I feel that the Scottish Parliament is better placed to manage Scotland than Westminster.

If you think that the way Westminster has used oil revenues is wise then feel free to say so.
321

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 17:59:50
382. I am jealous, woof hehehe :-) happy kicking
322

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 18:01:40
The Spook in Leith

Scotland is not independent...we have 5-a-side football.

If it were would we have 6-a-side football, or you just posting off-topic?
323

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 18:03:07
"UK Government has mis-managed that resource"


...as it mismanaged the gold stocks?
...as it mismanaged pension schemes?
That kind of a thing?
324

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 18:05:27
Mr Ayrshire @ 384

So you're interested in football? How about this for your fridge?

tinyurl.com/22qlhn
325

The Strategist,

31/03/2008 18:05:58
#365 Highland Mighty..

Define economic success.. Do you mean the record trade deficit or the record household debt levels? Perhaps you mean the exceptionally low level company birth rate or the exceptionally high number of company sell offs to overseas owners..

And - as a matter of interest - assuming your point on oil production is correct - what then would Labour's plan for improving economic growth? More financial services jobs? Oh no ... Darling has just screwed that idea by increasing capital gains tax and taxing non doms.. Come on HM.... Lets have Labour's bright ideas..
326

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 18:06:45
387. Thanks, I'll put that up on my Jackie Baillie/ Wendy Alexander/ George Foulkes corner of the fridge.
327

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 18:11:11
I'm bored.Does anyone know who to work torrents? I've got Utorrent and seemingly I've to set up a fixed ISP.

Do I HAVE to? Probably as a film I'm leeching has been running in the background for two days at 0%

Who's the cleverer...SNP or Unionists? A big hug (virtual) for some brainy geek out there.
328

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 18:16:30
I note that the former boss of Northern Rock will be getting a £760,000 pay-off.
329

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 18:18:24
390. No, you don't have to.
330

langtonian,

scotus 31/03/2008 18:20:32
#225Ayrshire Scot
The councils did NOT welcome the budget as presented to them.

It was a "Hobson's Choice" that was on the table.

Co- ercion were the tactics used, or if you prefer a gun pointed directly at the 22council's head's.

Not much choice there then.

As for the COSLA red herring, the poor sap was reeled in by a Salmond/Swinney ambush,there was no indication he had paid more than a nodding aquaintance to those he represented.
It is surprising he has maintained his post after indulging in what for all the world to note was a one man band of political chicanery.

331

Saruman,

31/03/2008 18:23:24
#380 Ayrshire: how about another analogy? The vast majority of people have to accept a drop in income when they retire, but try telling Scots that they won’t enjoy the same standard of funding post independence that they would as part of the UK (once the oil runs out!) I firmly believe that the referendum (when it eventually comes!) is as good as won already on this argument alone. Am I right or am I right!

#383 Miss H: what you refer to as “the Scottish Economy” is not dependent on oil: you’re right about that. However, it is dependent on oil to maintain a certain standard of living. I do think that the way Westminster has used oil revenues is wise: in the real world, they could not have been used in any other way. All this talk of investing the benefits is the usual pie in the sky nationalist garbage which has about as much relation to the real world as a Teletubby!
332

Andrew Allan,

31/03/2008 18:29:59
Considering Ms Cooper is attacking the SNP figures, even though she admits she doesn't really know what they really are, shouldn't she first send John Swinney her facts and figures so that he can answer in detail her criticism? The answer to this is yes, though I am guessing this won't happen because this exercise is not really about clarification but misinformation control.
333

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 18:33:57
393. Why did the Labour leader of Glasgow Council say the SNP funding deal was "too good to refuse"?

And why did Labour controlled Stirling actually cut its council tax on the back of the SNP funding deal?
334

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 18:36:59
394. Only surplus funds would be invested in the oil fund. Check mate.
335

Hamish Scott,

31/03/2008 18:38:23
#395
What Miss H is referring to is what the Norwegians have actually done - that's a fact - I believe the Norwegians live in the real world.
336

Andrew Allan,

31/03/2008 18:40:18
#394.,AM2.
Actually AM2 if your figures weren't anything more than circumstantial to events favourable to your own arguments, disregarding the infrastructural change, including increasing investment, you might have one or two of those dropped onto their heads at birth convinced.
337

Hamish Scott,

31/03/2008 18:40:56
#395
Do you think it's possible you might be wrong? That perhaps an independent Scotland could flourish economically?
338

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 18:41:03
395. No, Scots will enjoy a higher level of funding, as we will have control of our oil revenues and all revenues raised in Scotland will be used here.

And do not alot of unionists want to see the Barnett formula "reformed" - so Scotland may see cuts in funding in the Union that we have no control over. Only a fool would relegate control of his finances to others.
339

,

31/03/2008 18:43:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
340

kimba,

31/03/2008 18:52:26
402.And how long do you think the oil will last, not long then what?.
341

Saruman,

31/03/2008 18:52:52
#401 Hamish: I have a flair for looking after myself economically which is unclouded by sentiment (unlike you deluded Nat Fanatics) and can sniff out a duff deal a long way of like the vast majority of people in Scotland, so no it's not possible that I could be wrong!

#399 Hamish: oh well, if the Norwegians have done it!
342

Hamish Scott,

31/03/2008 18:56:59
#407
Saruman - So you don't think an independent Scotland could flourish economically?
343

John Q Scrotum-Bottom the second, an SNP voter,

31/03/2008 18:58:07
Kimba (406) thinks the oil will run out.

You must be joking, what SCIENTIFIC evidence is there to suggest things run out when you use them up?

No, the oil will last for ever and every magic Oil £1 can be spent and saved at the same time.
344

Saruman,

31/03/2008 18:59:04
#408 Hamish: no, I f*cking well don't (and neither do most of you Nats). To draw an analogy, how many church goers actually believe in God?
345

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 19:06:15
AM2 @ 394

Ah-HA! you deliberately left out our thriving peat business.
346

Jimmy the Pie,

Watching New Labour disappearing up it's own dung 31/03/2008 19:07:26
I find it amazing that the Dear Leader, Comrade Broon and his cohorts and henchmen in London, are putting such efforts into interfering with our Scottish government. Have they forgotten that they are about to receive a severe beating at the English local authority elections in May?? Indeed if their postal voting scams don’t work this time round, then the only local authority left in the UK under New Labour Sleaze and Corruption will be North Lanarkshire! The ‘chattering classes’ in England will have a clear message for Comrade Broon, which I’m sure he won’t like. I’ll bet the speechwriters are already hard at work making up the excuses. It will be everyone else’s fault. Some of the press will get a mauling; the BBC will receive warnings that if they don’t tow the line funding will be cut. (A bit like what he does to the Scottish Government!)
But mainly it will be Alex Salmond’s fault as he is really the devil incarnate.
He will be getting acting and elocution lessons on putting a brave face on as we speak.
Red Wendy will already have drafted her statement supporting Comrade Broon, telling anyone who is daft enough to listen that “things will get better but we need time”.
Aye, the next few months will be interesting.
347

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 19:09:28
Now that John Q Bawbag has made an appearance the plot thins.
348

Jimmy the Pie,

31/03/2008 19:09:54
Oh yes and Red Wendy will give Comrade Broon 10/10
349

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 19:10:56
414. LOL. Unionist gruel is getting a bit thin these days
350

David MacVicar,

Web 31/03/2008 19:11:57
AM2 and Saruman seem to think that Scotland needs a surplus for a viable existance. Yet the one true UK state seems to have managed on greater and greater debt since many years. This said debt has been managed through low international loans backed up by Scottish oil since the seventies.

Rump UKs credit rating will go down slightly as it will have less concrete resources to repay its debt out of. Miss H prefers the Nordic approach in using a build up of hard cash or equivalent to help finance future growth.

The UK approach has been to borrow against this liquid asset instead to drive growth. Oh and lets not forget about Gordon 'Mr Bean' Browns fiscal prudence in selling of UK gold while prices were low. Doh!

Since we all now know that the UK has lied for decades about Scotlands fiscal status we should equally realise that anything now stated about Scotland is, hand on bible, 'the half truth, the whole distortion and nothing but distortion'. Or 'mistated' in modern political jargon.

Why anyone would vote to keep a political state that constantly lies to, and puts down, the entire population of a member country is beyond belief.

351

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 19:13:43
417. Godo point - the UK is running a defecit of c. £80 billion this year - clearly by AM2 and Saruman's logic the UK is not viable
352

John Q Scrotum-Bottom the second, an SNP voter,

31/03/2008 19:14:26
Ayrshire Scot (414) thinks he is not a unionist?

But the SNP want to join the European Union, so they are a unionist party.

But that is not true as every SNP voter knows. Unions are bad AND Unions are good. That is our optimism!

We are to become undependent in a Union!
353

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 31/03/2008 19:15:52
AM2 & Highland Mighty - do you "two" ever post at the same time or is there always a gap of an hour or so between one of you finishing posting and the other starting?
354

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 31/03/2008 19:20:02
The arguments over the economic figures will no doubt last at least as long as Scotland and England remain wedded in the union. However, given the success of other small European countries at running their own affairs I remain unconvinced as to why Scotland should be any different. The bottom line with all those anti-independents seems always to be that Scotland and the Scots are in some way incapable of being independent.
355

John Q Scrotum-Bottom the second, an SNP voter,

31/03/2008 19:20:49
Did you know that the UK has to import 40% of it's food stuff?

Yes, by trading machine parts and Oil.

Scotland has fish! Lots of fish.

Did you know that fish are a magic resource like oil. They do not run out when you use them all up. We can have fish and not be reliant on food imports.

Glasgow will magically solve its problems in an independent Scotland. For two main reasons.

1: Most violent criminals are just a bit miffed about the Union. (Not the EU)

2(i): The SNP have diverted funds away from Glasgow to Edinburgh to make the spend per head fairer. Less money is what is need to cure Glasgow's poverty.

2(ii): In an independent Scotland we would cure Glasgow's ills by spending more money there. After ruining the city further as in 2(i) we can make the citizens miserable and break Labours grasp there.
356

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 31/03/2008 19:23:16
Hmmm? Does this mean that the LIT will go through?

How much does Scotland contribute to Westminster before £400million comes back?

Stay tooned to the Hamish MacDonnell show and you will be sure to find out from posters who have visited other onlne media sites.
357

Hamish Scott,

31/03/2008 19:23:20
#410
So you don't even think an ndependent Scotland COULD flourish economically? Do you think that's because of who or what we are as Scots or is it because of Scotland's position geographically/whatever as a country?
358

Calum Crubag,

31/03/2008 19:27:59
Highland Mighty - your polls proved nothing. It's in the wording. 'Should Scotland pay it's fair share towards Trident' is not the same as 'Should Trident missiles be based in Scotland?' or 'Would you prefer money to be spent on schools and hospitals instead of Trident'. You could equally ask, 'Should the English Parliament contintue to rule Scotland' and i'm sure a whopping majority would then 'choose' independence.

As to the SNP being Tartan Tories, well, one week they're left wing extremists and the next they're Tories. And this from the Labour Party who called striking firefighters 'fascists'!!!
359

David MacVicar,

web 31/03/2008 19:28:09
I am not against the UKs approach to borrow in order to promote growth overall. However the underlying truth is as follows:


In the 70s the UK was in a bad way.
The UK borrowed substantially in the 70s to try and promote growth.
This money was largely borrowed against UK OIL and Gas mainly lying in the Scottish sector (as we all know).
This was done by hiding the revenues against an extra region accounting territory etc. (as we all also know)

The money raised was invested in infrastructure and services essentially in the South UK. (Which is there for all to see)

The result was that the South recovered and achieved a fairly sustained level of Growth.

EXCEPT: In the meantime Scotland was asset stripped, its heavy industries decimated, its fishing industry given away and instead was handed UK economic polices that has resulted in Scotland having lower economic growth than the South since decades. (Which is a matter of record). Even the former bank of England convenor stated that unemployment in the North this was the price to pay for success in the South.

With a 'partnership' like that who needs enemies?

360

John Q Scrotum-Bottom the second, an SNP voter,

31/03/2008 19:28:50
Who cares if there is a black hole in Scotland's economy created by the SNP's management?

We can just have access to our oil money and plug it that way.

If the UK parliament sais we cannot have OUR money back then we can cancel services and blame England.

That way through machevelian means we can foster ill-relations within the Union to destroy it.

Then we can join the EU and be Unionists ourselves!

The main priority is to be in power though. Who cares about the economy or viability? The people in power (The SNP) are always well heeled and fed.

What really matters is the warm feeling SNP voters get in their tummy for being able to call themselves Scottish.
361

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 19:31:14
AM2

Are you posting as John Q Scrotum? His unionist logic is nearly as good as yours. Apparently there's fish.

;-)
362

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 19:32:46
426.AM2 - disingenous as ever. The SNP oil fund has no set target - the investemnnt into it, like all such funds, will utilise surplus revenues, not diverted revenues from other areas.
363

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 19:33:20
Hmm....fish-oil. Maybe there's something there.
Burn the fish.
364

John Q Scrotum-Bottom the second, an SNP voter,

31/03/2008 19:33:52
The Sensible One (429) thinks I am a Unionist.

Yes I am. But the SNP, who I vote for, are a unionist party advocating joining the European Union.

The SNP as right thinking Unionists see the value in forging Unions and centralising power in foreign countries as it will create the EU dividend.
365

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 19:34:04
429. I think you'll find that is Highland Mighty who only ever posts as AM2, erm, or something
366

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 19:34:07
Why aren't we harvesting Fish oil and Rat milk?
367

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 31/03/2008 19:34:52
#428 etc.- John your attempts at sarcasm are a little too obvious.
368

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 31/03/2008 19:35:54
AM2 - I'm wounded ;-)
369

The Sensible One,

Larbert 31/03/2008 19:36:33
AM2

First of all I don't think for one nano-second you're HM.
You are of course wrong about posting at the same time.
1 Open up IE7 & log in as "A"
2 Open up Firefox & log in as "B"
3 Spout nonsense (not you mind) in "A" & "B"
4 Post both et voila. Same times (ish)
370

David MacVicar,

Web 31/03/2008 19:40:37
Amazingly the argument of some unionists also goes like:
a) We will be poorer without the South so we need to hang on to them in order use them to our benefit.

b) We have been robbed for decades but now that oil will be in decline we need to hang onto the same lot as it will be somehow 'beneficial'.

However since we have had lower growth with OIL and have remained poorer relative to the SOUTH also with OIL, it is logical that we could only expect to be STILL worse within the union yet without OIL.

371

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 31/03/2008 19:44:32
439, The Sensible One. It's easier than that. I have a router and some ex-government laptops. (Whoops. Twazny me - I got them cheap from journalists)
372

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 19:45:54
441. Remind me, how much is Scotland's oil fund worth at present, for future generations?

And how does it compare to Venezuela's, The UAE's or Norway's?

The oil fund would of course only use surplus revenue, just like very other countrie's oil fund - the SNP has never proposed shifting revenue from other areas to invest in it - that is pure fantasy on you part.
373

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 19:46:54
442... AM2 sneaks under his covers with laptop and torch, as his mum closes his bedroom door....
374

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 31/03/2008 19:47:47
442, Night, night, AMtwa. Will you pop back later with a laptop under the bedcothes? What kind of torch do you use?
375

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 19:48:57
446. He uses a unionist torch - it sheds very little light.
376

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 31/03/2008 19:49:51
Any resemblance between Ayrshire Scot™ and myself is purely coincidental.
377

John Q Scrotum-Bottom the second, an SNP voter,

31/03/2008 19:50:20
Ayshire Scot (444) thinks that the Oil fund will cover the cost of everything in Scotland.

I agree.

He or I, as right minded SNP Unionists, do not need to tell you how much the Oil fund is worth because it is enough!

Think of any number for costs to buy anything you would like - that is the number times 5,000,000 Scots.

There is always a surplus.

No, I repeat, we do not need to tell you how much it is worth because we know it's a lot - okay.

And before any of you Unionists (not the good EU kind) say that us SNP voters just spout crap about the "Oil fund" we DO KNOW how much it is we are just not telling you.
378

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 31/03/2008 19:51:04
447, Ayrshire. Had to laugh at the timing of that.
379

Calum Crubag,

31/03/2008 19:51:31
Interesting poll re. Trident:
http://www.banthebomb.org/newbombs/poll.htm

Strange how some Labour MPs/MSPs marched against Trident a few years ago and now support it. And, are right on both occasions!
380

frank mcbride,

lusitania 31/03/2008 19:52:15
Has Altaterre Megatrix gone to B&Q?

Oh, hello AM2. I see, like NuLab's, your arguments and statistics have not changed. Could that be a reason for your, and their, credibility dropping like a stone?

I also find it odd that there seems to be an inordinate number of newcomer Unionists to the debates, who strangely use the same language, nuance, staistics and rebuttals. Not 1 or 2, but all. Strangely, I don't believe in coincidence.
381

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 19:52:23
#438 Kapowee

Where did that come from? I've never expressed an interest in your reproductive organ, I merely presumed you to be a bit like Ken, of Ken and Barbie fame, it goes with your timid, non-threatening demeanour.

I have to say it's an odd feller that has no interest in genitalia. I'm pretty sure it's a non-political thing too. Fixation is a bit strong, but then again I did say you were a big girls blouse...so fair is fair.

I noticed John Q Wrinkly Retainer, but have no claim over his identity and you're right the day I covert to the Union is the day they pry my dead fingers from my tumescent man stump.
382

John Q Scrotum-Bottom the second, an SNP voter,

31/03/2008 19:53:10
Do you know that if we needed £6 billion then the Oil fund would be that much?

Do you know that if the amount we needed chagned to £8 billion then the Oil fund automatically changes to meet our increased need.

We just pump more out of the ground it never runs out.
383

David MacVicar,

web 31/03/2008 19:54:52
447 Ayrshire Scot™,

Little light and yet distorts all it covers.

AM2 will be back as soon as his mum thinks he has gone to sleep.
384

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 31/03/2008 19:58:57
So many SNP illusionists! See you guys in 2020, you would be still debating about North Sea oil money, independence and SNP.
385

John Q Scrotum-Bottom the second, an SNP voter,

31/03/2008 20:02:17
David MacVicar (455) thinks that a certain Unionist (not the good EUnionists like the SNP) is like a torch.

Made me laugh. Does he have batteries and an "On button". LOL

Isn't it good to be an SNP voter? How can we muck up the economy when a Unionist is a torch? They fail to see the logic in that!
386

Paloma negra,

31/03/2008 20:18:22
Oooops looks like the London bosses are