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Parliamentary expenses: Payback time

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Published Date: 20 June 2009
THE parliamentary expenses scandal intensified last night as Scotland Yard announced that a small number of MPs and peers faced criminal investigations.
Several MPs and at least one peer will have their publicly funded allowances scrutinised by the same unit of detectives who launched the politically explosive cash-for-honours inquiry.

The news came as nearly 200 MPs scrambled to repay the taxpayer, after five years of heavily censored expense claims were unveiled by the Commons authorities on Thursday.

Officers are expected to focus on politicians accused of deliberately misleading the authorities or claiming "phantom" mortgages. It is understood that preliminary investigations started several weeks ago.

Police have refused to name which MPs they are investigating. But it is believed inquiries will include Labour MPs David Chaytor and Elliot Morley, who both announced they would stand down at the election. Mr Chaytor claimed £13,000 on a "phantom" mortgage and has so far returned £4,812.46.

He admitted an "unforgivable error" in submitting monthly bills of £1,175 for a loan that had been paid off.

Former agriculture minister Mr Morley claimed £16,000 for a non- existent loan. He referred himself to the parliamentary watchdog. Inquiries by the Commons standards commissioner into him and Mr Chaytor have been suspended while police carry out their inquiries.

Labour peer Baroness Udin, who claimed more than £100,000 for an empty home, is also believed to be under scrutiny.

Others who claimed for mortgages that had been paid off include Labour MP Ben Chapman and the Conservative whip Bill Wiggin.

Livingston MP Jim Devine, the first Scot to be banned from standing for Labour, could also have his receipts for shelving and rewiring scrutinised.

Police have ruled out a wider inquiry into most parliamentarians, despite the public outrage over the expenses scandal.

The Metropolitan Police's Economic and Specialist Crime Command will launch the inquiry, which will be led by Temporary Assistant Commissioner Janet Williams.

A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: "After consideration by the joint Metropolitan Police and Crown Prosecution Service assessment panel, the Met has decided to launch an investigation into the alleged misuse of expenses by a small number of MPs and peers."

Gordon Brown and David Cameron yesterday both pledged more transparency in future, allowing all expenses to be published in full with no censorship of key information.

There was a furore on Thursday when much of the information covering all 646 MPs' expenses was heavily censored.

While officials and politicians insisted this was to protect their privacy, questions were raised over why information, such as the fact that Mr Brown had claimed to repaint a summer house in his Fife garden, had been blacked out.

Speaking from Brussels where he was attending an EU summit, the Prime Minister renewed a commitment to "maximum exposure" of MPs' expense claims, insisting the highly criticised censoring of details was "part of the old system".

"The old system is being swept aside by the changes that we are making and a new, far more transparent system is being introduced.

"While ensuring that security issues are addressed, as they have to be, our first principle must be maximum transparency. That will be part of the new legislation to set up an independent parliamentary regulator to take all these issues out of the hands of MPs," he said.

Any change in the rules would have to be approved by the House of Commons Commission – which is not due to meet again until the end of the month, by which time a new Commons Speaker will have been elected to chair it.

The new regime of openness will not be enforced in time for the next tranche of MP's expenses, to be published in October, covering the financial year that ended in April.

It was the leak of an unedited version of the receipts that allowed second-home flipping and claims including moat-clearing and the building of a duck island to be exposed by the Daily Telegraph.

The receipts released on Thursday by Commons officials had all traces of addresses redacted, making it impossible for constituents or journalists to check which home an MP was claiming for.

Mr Cameron said the censorship had only hurt parliament's reputation further. The Conservatives would do everything to "push the House of Commons Commission to publish the 2008-9 expenses as quickly as possible and in an uncensored form", he said.

His regime of forcing shadow cabinet members to publish all new claims online would now also include "all significant unredacted correspondence and receipts in relation to those claims", he said.

"The heavily censored publication yesterday of MPs expenses did nothing to improve the reputation of Parliament," he said, adding, "Only strictly private information – for example phone numbers, bank details and information with legitimate security concerns – should be redacted."

Meanwhile, nearly a third of Westminster MPs have so far scrambled to voluntarily pay back expenses – amounting to nearly £500,000.

Among them was International Development Secretary Douglas Alexander, who yesterday gave back £12,600. The money was for rent he had received from a sitting tenant in a property next to his constituency home.

Mr Alexander had bought the house, complete with the annexe, and had kept the lodger. Although he cleared the rental agreement with the Commons Fees Office, a spokesman said he decided to pay back the amount he had received in rent "for the avoidance of doubt".

Recently promoted regional minister Rose Winterton, who now attends Cabinet, also paid back £8,000.

Ms Winterton reimbursed the taxpayer after it emerged she had claimed for both the capital and interest on her second home.

Also paying back a large amount was former Home Office minister Keith Vaz. He repaid £18,949.82, much of it for 22 silk scatter cushions and leather armchairs.

Chancellor Alistair Darling is paying back £958.04. The sum includes £660 he has already pledged to pay back for a service charge for his London flat, which has been let out, and an extra £290 for a share of the TV licence and ground rent.

It emerged on Thursday that Mr Darling also had a number of late notices for unpaid bills.

However The Scotsman understands that this was because the bills were incorrectly sent to the Scottish Parliament.

Sources close to Mr Darling said that he always paid his bills.

THE TEN BIGGEST REPAYERS

Phil Hope (Lab) – £42,674
Elliot Morley (Lab) – £36,800
Barbara Follett (Lab) – £32,976
Jonathan Djanogly (Con) – £25,000
Keith Vaz (Lab) – £18,949
Sir Alan Haselhurst (Con) – £15,653
Barry Gardiner (Lab) – £15,229
Paddy Tipping (Lab) – £14,320
Paul Goggins (Lab) – £11,680
Howard Stoate (Lab) – £11,255

THE CABINET

Gordon Brown: £801.86
Alistair Darling: £958.04
Douglas Alexander: £12,600
David Miliband: £434.24
Ed Balls: £1,350
Yvette Cooper: £1,367.50
Liam Byrne: £1,757.88
Hilary Benn: £115

THE SCOTS

Douglas Alexander: £12,600
Gordon Brown: £801.86
Jim Sheridan: £779
Charles Kennedy: £93.65
Sir Menzies Campbell: £1,772
David Mundell: £74.88
Mike Weir: £37.08
Mark Lazarowicz: £2,730
Alistair Darling: £958.04



The full article contains 1191 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 19 June 2009 11:17 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Politicians' expenses
 
1

nostress,

grangemouth 20/06/2009 00:10:03
Livingston MP Jim Devine, the first Scot to be banned from standing for Labour, could also have his receipts for shelving and rewiring scrutinised.

Surely, he's more likely to be investigated concerning his extraordinary allegation that a former employee of his committed fraud in his name? This attempt to save his own bloated neck by besmirching the reputation of someone else is really beneath contempt.
2

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/06/2009 00:11:49

Is it for Real?, or just to make us all feel better?

A near impossible task, that will have deliberate political obstacle's thrown into the equation.


3

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/06/2009 00:21:21

Political Correction! in this case,

= "At least something is being done about it"

When it wont be!, a few 'for-the-slaughter' perhaps!

4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/06/2009 00:39:56


The soo called "Police Investigation" @ Jersey children's home?, blankets!

As will be in this case.

5

cockatiel,

minto 20/06/2009 00:47:20
paying it back is not good enough, they commited blatant fraud,and saying it was/is an error is no excuse for the positions they hold/held. court and a criminal record is the only way, to say they will stand down at the next election is not good enough iether, sack them now forfiet all pensions due, so they have nothing. leaving them in till the next election means they can leave with whopping pensions ? no way out they go now as the criminals they are,wether they be lords-peers-barronesses sirs or ladies
6

Alan B,

20/06/2009 00:54:15
With the axil of evil bliar and brown at the heart of the corruption and having taken political control of the met only a few non entity mps will be thrown to the wolves as scape goats.

Brown claimed for a 2nd home and all the associated expenses like a cleaner etc when we were already paying for him to live in a grace and favour home only a few miles away. When you have such blatent corruption at the top all that we can expect is a police whitewash.

Brown clearly broke the rules of only claiming what is necessary in line with doing their job as an mp. Having paid back certain monies is an admission of errors and mistakes at best. A chancellor who cannot fill in an expense form correctly inspires no confidence and it is no surprise he has been so economically incompetent.

MPs who have abused the rules like brown should be kicked out.
7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/06/2009 00:56:45

~7 Alan B,
"MPs who have abused the rules like brown should be kicked out"

Let me assure you!,....'THEY WONT BE'.


8

Alan B,

20/06/2009 00:57:22
Why is it the discredit met that is the only police force investigating mp fraud. Should the police authority of the mp consituency not be investigating. We know labour have policised the met.
9

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/06/2009 01:01:22
#9,

Any form of political manupulations, are used to give us that old,,,'Feel_Good_Factor'


10

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

20/06/2009 01:50:13
#9 Alan B - "We know labour have politicised the met."

Perhaps the fear of post election cull of placed "policemen", will spur them into doing what is supposed to be their job?

11

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 20/06/2009 04:42:45
i like www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TR0dKVEE0w
12

Phillip,

20/06/2009 05:29:37
I'm surprised the usual Unionist Gang isn't on here calling for Scotland Yard to haul Salmond off over his lunch tab.
13

Johnnyf,

Somewher else, before the Tories get in, again. 20/06/2009 05:35:04
Look, there ALL parties are guilty of it.
Labour, Tories, Lib Dems(I can't quite believe that Clegg has the audicty, to bleat and still collected his up to the limit expenses - totally Lib Dem), and Salmond, fat eaty-boy at the best of times - what can you say?
The economy is on an up (as we always expected it would), I personaly have made 115% on a single share in the last 4 weeks. No, not banks, but other things.
If Osbourne had been in charge of the finances, GOD knows where it might have landed. I've said loads of times on this site, watch him, watch him in Parliament,
even watch his first and only appearance on Question Time. The son of the baron is, I think,is a wee bit autistic.Can you seriously see him runnning the economy. I would hope good sense prevails.
14

Johnnyf,

Somewhere else, before the Tories get in, again. 20/06/2009 05:42:24
Look, there, ALL parties are guilty of it.
Labour, Tories, Lib Dems(I can't quite believe that Clegg has the audacity, to bleat and still collected his up to the limit expenses - totally Lib Dem), and Salmond, fat eaty-boy at the best of times - what can you say?
The economy is on an up (as we always expected it would, it's actually a WORLD economy), I personaly have made 115% on a single share in the last 4 weeks. No, not banks, but other things.
If Osbourne had been in charge of the finances, GOD knows where it might have landed. I've said loads of times on this site, watch him, watch him in Parliament,
even watch his first and only appearance on Question Time. The son of the baron is, I think,is a wee bit autistic.Can you seriously see him runnning the economy. I would that hope good sense prevails.
And ... Cameron's conniving with extreme Right wing parties in the "extended Europe"
15

jester,

Somewhere Else 20/06/2009 06:35:24
We need an election, and we need one now. Having said that I imagine that some of the public are so thick they will vote these criminals back in.

Can someone tell me Dr John Reid thought it fitting to buy a pair of Lurex Trousers on expenses?
Not to mention the large amount of renovation work he had done on his flat in wishaw before punting it and making a killing on it.
This crook is going to walk away with over £60K in his back pocket, when he's guilty of thieving from the public purse.
16

RDavis,

Vienna 20/06/2009 06:49:42
If any of them are sent to jail...will they be able to claim boarding expenses or 3rd home allowances?
17

Colkitto,

River Clyde 20/06/2009 07:35:52
I think the Police should seriously look into Douglas Alexanders' expenses claims.
Taking rent on a flat that you are claiming expenses on is quite simply fraud.
And paying back £12,600 after you have been caught shouldn't make a blind bit of difference to the fact he has committed a criminal act.
18

Herry Oaksters,

20/06/2009 07:48:48
What about the fat disgraced ex speaker piggy Martin ,he conned the tax payer out of £17.000 to run an empty house?
19

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 20/06/2009 08:04:16
Douglas Alexander ,another Labour child of the manse, with a supposed moral compass.
He is paying back £12600 to ensure "there is any avoidance of doubt"
so like his sister there is no intentional wrongdoing, no theft, no corruption he is just being generous and giving the taxpayer a donation.

The worst of this is that they think the public is stupid enough to believe their lies and deceit.

I look forward to election night and the look on the faces of Scottish labour MPs as they experience that "Portillo moment"
This is going to be one of the most satisfying nights of my life.

The Scottish "Berlin Wall" is about to fall!!
20

Observer,,

Glasgow 20/06/2009 08:37:56
Jesus the met will probably give them all their money back.
21

Joe90,

20/06/2009 08:40:00
What about David Marshall who salted away half a million of taxpayer's money and conveniently fell sick when the net started to close? When will he be prosecuted?
22

Jimmy Le Pie,

20/06/2009 08:46:01
Our usual tribe of unionist apologists are conspicuous by their absence???

Are they crumbling under the strain???


Good!

23

Ugly George,

20/06/2009 08:49:33
There is ample evidence an untainted Police Force could hand to the CPS, without having to do much in the way of detective work, that would convict 50+ of the real villains.

The sooner this is done the better, it is unfair the majority of MP's, who are no more engorged than any of us would have been - If presented with such a generous, all encompassing but purposely ill-defined reimbursement package, are tarred with the same brush as the fraudsters.

Time to bury the dead and move on.
24

Ron Thomson,

calonge 20/06/2009 09:13:00
The stealing bunch of B%$&*%£S should be charged and sacked on the spot, but no they will hang on like leeches till the Golden Goose Craps in their Bank, if i was stealing from my Boss i would be chatged, sacked and end up with a Police Record or a Jail Sentence, they have been caught cheating but i take it that is okay for them.
Now i understand what the word POLITICIAN means a CROOK who Represents the People in Government but fills his own pockets first.
I want a job like that.
25

Ron Thomson,

calonge 20/06/2009 09:19:53
I take it that Rosie Winterton is a Bedroom Squealer needing her Bedroom Soundproofing that will be so the neighbours cant here her on the night of gratification whether it be Sex or just Counting the money she has been Fiddling.
26

letmein,

hinterland 20/06/2009 09:19:55
What about the Paisley thief Irene Adams, why is she not on the list after being exposed in the Sunday Mail a couple of weeks ago. Douglas Alexander was at my door canvassing at the last election, I hope he calls again at the next one.
27

Russell M,

Stirling 20/06/2009 09:25:03
If a thief gives the money back or an assailant makes a sincere and heartfelt apology, do they escape prosecution?

NO!

Why should members of Parliament be treated any differently?

A Home Office spokesman (once) said: "It is important the public should have full confidence in the ability of the criminal justice system to deliver justice."

Aye, right.
28

Jambo Dave,

edinburgh 20/06/2009 09:29:14
If they are proved to be in the wrong they should forego every penny of there fat pention pots as well as paying back the money.Its up to us to follow the example shown in Iran and have mass rallys and not let it lie until there is change and justice metted out to these crooks.Lets all band together and take the moral high ground because if your waiting for the turkeys to do it you will wait a long time.
29

,

20/06/2009 09:33:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
30

GM,

20/06/2009 09:46:00
I noted today that the piggies are beginning to squeal that tired old line -

"I will be cleared of any intentional wrongdoing"


what a crock.
As if any member of the public gets away with a crime simply by stating they didn't mean to do it.
31

Sgian Achlais,

20/06/2009 09:48:57
Well I for one am over at the Telegraph investigating hundreds of pages of Jim Murphy's expenses.

They have a system set up to report anything / request further investigation / and other little tools.

Currently he is top of the list of people being reported.

32

Gdgy,

20/06/2009 09:50:09
ANyone who is paying monay back should be put on the top of the list for further investigation. IT is a belated admittance that I was fiddling....SO lets do the bast&rds
33

Darien,

Panama 20/06/2009 09:50:44
Westminster implodes - great news for Scotland.

Actually all the rottenness is at Westminster. If Scots get rid of Westminster we have a chance of getting rid of the rottenness.

We might also get rid of our share of the British debt which looks like being at least £20bn/year if we remain as an appendage region of the oddly-named country known as UKofGB&NI. Even if Gers is right (which it is not), their £3.8bn/year debt were Scotland to goe it alone sounds a great deal more attractive than the status quo.

Britain is bust and rotten - its well past time to end the 1707 Treaty of Union. RiP UKofGB&NI.
34

Boy Wonder,

20/06/2009 09:57:25
I'm not a big fan of our Police Service. Especially the Met!!! But if they can make charges stick AND jail a few of these fraudulent b**t**ds posing as MPs, MSPs and Councillors et al ... I may very well change my mind about them, the Courts and our presently laughable Justice system.

Shakespeare's Henry VI had the right of it ... but let's not stop at lawyers ... politicians too!!!
35

Pilrig,

Livingston 20/06/2009 10:07:53
20 - lay off Davie Marshall, the hero of Shettleston's workin class!
Listen, Davie needed the £400,000 to do up his office - in his hoose - so he could do mair to alleviate the poverty in Glesca East
36

Pilrig,

Livingston 20/06/2009 10:08:47
above post for poster 26 !
37

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

20/06/2009 10:09:59
Amazing!

One presumes that the biggest repayers are also those with the most outrageous expenses claims - otherwise why the rush to give back the money, eh?

And WOW! For a party that's supposed to be about looking after the 'working man' the Labour Party sure seem to have been lining their pockets a lot more than other parties that could be mentioned!

38

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

20/06/2009 10:11:19
If there's ANY prosecutions I'll be surprised, Money talks don'tcha know . . .
39

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

20/06/2009 10:12:22
Not that the Judiciary can be bought of course . . .
40

Arthur G,

Glasgow 20/06/2009 10:24:39
Baggy Troosers #16

"t seems to be that the only man to come out of this fiasco with any credibility is the former First Minister Henry McLeish who was scapegoated and forced to resigned by these very polititians that are now being caught like rabbits in headlights.

Boy i hope he is enjoying this whole sickening circus.

Anyway, now the cats amongst the pigeons lets hope there will be plenty of court appearances in the not to distant future."

Henry, as he alludes to in his book, was stiched up by the Glasgow/North Lanarkshire Murphyosa. He isn't a kiddy on Irishman; doesn't have a season ticket for Celtic Park and is a Presbyterian (a bit like Gordon Strachan, actually). Therefore he is completely unacceptable to the West of Scotland Labour Establishment.
41

dunedin bully wee 1877,

20/06/2009 10:29:27
I note that Douglas Alexander has returned £12,000 despite there being apparently no question whatsoever of any impropriety on his behalf.

Now, I have never claimed any expenses as an MP, mainly because I am not one, but how much does Mr Alexander think I should pay to the “Fees Office” if I was feeling sufficiently altruistic?

42

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 10:29:45
36
GM

"As if any member of the public gets away with a crime simply by stating they didn't mean to do it."

Intent is a major factor in determining culpability. And this is perhaps more true in the case of criminal fraud.

The plain fact is that it was never likely that there would even be sufficient grounds for investigation in more than a handful of cases. But public expectations of criminal proceedings have been raised. The Angry Villagers have been led to believe the circus will have as its grand finale a public parade of politicians being dragged off to prison. And if - No! WHEN! - they don't get the show they crave, they will unjustly turn their ill-informed outrage on the police and CPS.

43

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

20/06/2009 10:30:54
And amother thing!

All these MP's who have over-claimed on their Mortgages 'accidently' and 'didn't know the Mortgage had been paid off'

Utter Lies!!!

A Mortgage is the BIGGEST debt you can have and you'd pretty soon Celebrate the paying-off of it, I know I bloody-well would!!!

For some-one NOT to notice they had finished paying their Mortgage off is like not noticing that your National Team had Won the World Championship - damn nigh impossible!

Liars! All MP's are Liars!!

Nuff Sed
44

Columba doing the Rumba,

20/06/2009 10:39:52
No "ifs", no "buts".

That's what the infomercials about benefit cheating tell us.

About time the right dishonourable members had their comeuppance.
45

Ewan Oosami,

20/06/2009 10:43:08
Having read the Telegraphs list of expenses and the subsequent list of discrepancies by readers it beggars belief at some of the downright fraudulent double claims and ridiculous sums being claimed - in one case 1p for a phone call. It's strange that all MPs eat exactly £400 of food every month (whether parliament is sitting or not)and get exactly £250 of petty cash (no receipts required) every month. Hardly any of these expenses are necessary for the MPs to carry out their duties, when household items (TVs etc) are claimed it appears they remain the MPs property and not disposed of and the proceeds returned to the public purse when the MP is no longer in office.
I think up to now we have only scratched the surface of this charade - it's going to run for another year at least.
46

GM,

20/06/2009 10:51:18
@48 Hermit

Nice to see you back you old liar you.
47

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 20/06/2009 10:53:54
What's the betting on how many will actually get charged. They are MP's and they have paid they money back. They were following the rules they themselves set up. Those who claimed outside the rules can claim that it was a mistake, and lawyers would be hard pout to prove otherwise.

If it was you or me, we would already be in the nick.

There is one law for the Rich, Famous and MP's and one for the rest of us.
48

GM,

20/06/2009 10:55:12
aye Hermit, "it was all within the rules" wasn't it?

For someone as intelligent as you are, your comments again illustrate the tangled web of lies dressed up as spin that we've come to expect from you -
"And this is perhaps more true in the case of criminal fraud."

What does that sentence mean exactly?

"perhaps"?
"more true"?



Any comment on the 'thriving' christian population in Iran yet?
49

GM,

20/06/2009 10:57:04
Electric Hermit 9th June 2009
==============================

"You are an ignorant oaf. Both Iran and Syria have significant Christian and Jewish communities. And in both those countries there are special laws to protect these religious minorities. In Iran, seats are reserved in parliament for Jews.

Read a book!"

-------------------------------------------------------



Turns out the population of Christians in Iran is 0.4% at the last count and falling.
They are subject to systematic threats and victimisation from other religious groups and the government themselves.

If 0.4% of a population is 'Significant' then England and Wales has twice that number (0.79% census 2001) of 'Jedi' in its midst. What does that make them?

NEVER believe any *Fact* Electric Hermit presents as truth. They simply are not true.

NEVER let him abuse or belittle you with these *Facts* as he presents them. They are simply exaggerations at best, lies at worst.
50

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 20/06/2009 10:58:18
#36 GM
Ignorance of the Law is no defence - except if you are a Lawyer and an MP.
51

Jerry Springer,

20/06/2009 11:01:40
So............the SNP have been distributing leaflets in the Falkirk area, which have a photo showing MSP Micheal "the Hokey Cokey song is racist" Matheson and a few of his SNP friends in the Falkirk Council chambers.

In it they have airbrushed out the framed potraits of The Queen and Duke of Edinburgh from the wall and replaced it with Robert Burns and William Wallace.

As always with the SNP, what you see is not what you get.

Maybe one day the SNP will grow up and then people can start taking them seriously. Probably a forlorn hope though.
52

Fred Leeson,

edinburgh 20/06/2009 11:01:43
#37 Sgian
I've not spotted Jim Murphy's expenses yet. You got a link ? He wasn't listed under cabinet ministers when I last checked.
I was interested as I remember he got his fingers rapped in 2001 for allegedly trousering some office rent or something allegedly.
53

GM,

20/06/2009 11:02:28
@56

I await Electric Hermits attack on your contribution...

He, after all, as the self-styled 'Seeker of Wisdom' believes that anyone critical of an MP in this expenses fiasco is part of a mob of village idiots who would wish to see them hung, drawn and quartered.

*he* is, of course part of a large majority of intelligent, rational people who think its all been 'within the rules' and the minority baying mob are mere simpletons.
54

Jerry Springer,

20/06/2009 11:03:31
Electric Hermit 9th June 2009
==============================

"You are an ignorant oaf. Both Iran and Syria have significant Christian and Jewish communities. And in both those countries there are special laws to protect these religious minorities. In Iran, seats are reserved in parliament for Jews.
======================================================

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Electric Hermit, sharp as a bowling ball as always.
55

McNasty,

Edinburgh 20/06/2009 11:06:09
Douglas Alexander obviously did not think "LONG AND HARD" before defrauding the taxpayer.

How the might have fallen.
56

Jerry Springer,

20/06/2009 11:08:02
Electric Hermit 7th June 2009
==============================

Brown will be out within weeks rather than months. If tonight's results are as bad as early indications suggest, he will be lucky to last the week.
=====================================================

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Another classic from Electric Hermit!
57

Jerry Springer,

20/06/2009 11:09:36
Electric Hermit, please tell me what you think tonights lottery numbers will be..........................................just so I can avoid them.

Electric Hermit.....Scotlands very own Nostradamus.
58

Jerry Springer,

20/06/2009 11:14:11
Electric Hermit 29th May 2009
==============================

"Alistair Darling is a dead man walking. He will be sacked by Monday and Ed Balls will take over as Chancellor"

=====================================================

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

A further classic from Electric Hermit!

Electric Hermit - Bright as a Blackout.
59

dunedin bully wee 1877,

20/06/2009 11:38:18
I note that Rufus has arrived and seems intent upon demonstrating his ability to type both the letters “H” and “A”.

One can only hope that after the summer, if he is allowed to attend the big school, he will also be taught both how to count and to communicate with adults.

60

Jerry Springer,

20/06/2009 11:54:15
#66

Hey Bully Liar, now that is an insult coming from the discombobulated man who cannot calculate 10% of anything and indeed who can't add up Champions League points.

Remind me again, who is Dick Chaney?

As you would say Bully Boy,

"Do don’t appear to be very bright"

or

"You have hurt me to the quick".

HAHAHAHA
61

Jerry Springer,

20/06/2009 12:02:28
Castle Douglas............

And don't forget Alex Salmond was one of a group of MPs who racked up £14,100 in legal costs in a futile and pathetic political stunt to attempt to impeach Tony Blair.

Taxpayers footed the bill.

And also don't forget that the money went to Cherie Blair's law firm.

Salmond proves once again he has no shame.
62

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 12:15:26
Jerry Springer,

What do you make of the thieving liars ganging up on Henry McLeish a few years back only for them to be shown up as a lot worse now?

Why did they want Henry out?

Was he too pro-Scottish per chance?
63

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 12:23:01
Precisely as anticipated we see the Angry Villagers throwing spittle-flecked tantrums at the mere suggestion that they will not get the public show trials they lust after.

And when they don't, no mundane explanation - such as lack of evidence - will suffice. Oh no! It will all be down to a massive conspiracy involving politicians, parliamentary authorities, police, lawyers and the CPS.

64

Pilrig,

Livingston 20/06/2009 12:24:04
71 Jerry manderin - £14,000 is a pittance compared to the £6.5 billion Bambi's Iraqi adventure has cost this country...not forgettin those killed and wounded
65

Pilrig,

Livingston 20/06/2009 12:26:01
73 - yep, we surely dinnae want the hon members and right hon members to be subject to the same laws as the common herd who elected them ?
66

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 12:30:32
Electric Hermit 73,

For there to be a lack of evidence in most cases there would surely have to be a conspiracy considering what is really going on here.

It's so obvious.

Of course they need evidence and the lack of such in many cases would suggest there is in fact a/several conspiracies.

Conspiring to defraud, that's what this is all about.

Only a naive person could think otherwise.

How do you forget you've paid your mortgage off?

That's a classic for a start.

I do not expect to see many convictions DUE to the conspiracies to HIDE the evidence.
67

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 12:44:47
76
Pilrig

"yep, we surely dinnae want the hon members and right hon members to be subject to the same laws as the common herd who elected them ?"

The "common herd" cannot be prosecuted without adequate evidence. What the Angry Villagers are demanding is precisely that there SHOULD be a different law for MPs.

68

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 12:50:58
77
Castle Douglas

"You're right but you know what puzzles me is why people are not out on the streets demanding justice."

The baying mob does not deliver justice. Only mindlessly destructive vengeance.

Among the many things that the Angry Villagers fail to grasp is the fact that it is ultimately parliamentary democracy itself which is under threat here. No sane person approaches such a situation with pitchfork in hand and the red mist of rage in their eye.

And no responsible person incites them to do so.

69

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 12:55:26
80 Electric Hermit,

The difference being the "common herd" can be discriminated against in many ways and one includes false evidence being made up and the alleged offence being multiplied and exaggerated in order to secure a prosecution, whereas in the case of the (ig)noble and (dis)honourable the opposite happens.
70

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 13:00:50
78
Fitba Krazy

There may well be cases where a prosecution is possible. In fact, I'd be surprised if that was not the case. But the plain fact of the matter is that those who have whipped themselves up into a froth of frenzied anticipation about scores of MPs being dragged into court are being totally unrealistic.

People need to step back from the media hype, put away their histrionics and look at the issue rationally. In doing so, they will see that there is no possibility of more than a handful of prosecutions. And there never was.

http://tiny.pl/3np1

71

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 13:11:52
82
Fitba Krazy

Lots of things MIGHT happen in all sorts of hypothetical scenarios. But if your idea of justice is to persecute an individual or group on the grounds that another individual or group could possibly be persecuted, then you simply have not grasped the concept of justice.

In contrast to the Angry Villagers, all I am saying is that the law should apply to MPs exactly the same as it does to everyone else. If there is evidence that MPs have committed an offence, and if that evidence is sufficient that there can be a reasonable expectation of securing a conviction, then so be it.

But everybody needs to just calm down and realise that this almost certainly means that there will be no more than a handful of prosecutions.

72

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 13:15:53
83 Electric Hermit,

"But the plain fact of the matter is that those who have whipped themselves up into a froth of frenzied anticipation about scores of MPs being dragged into court are being totally unrealistic."

I agree with this, being realistic. They also have to "protect the integrity of the establishment" WHILST justice APPEARING to be done. A bit of a dilemna, or maybe not as they are well used to brushing these kinds of things under the carpet and carrying on regardless.

Appearing to be done and REALLY being done is not the same thing BTW.

If the media print actual evidence then it's hard to see how it's an exaggeration. It's a question of how far do they go and where all do they look. Also the resources to do so, although it is a minefield legally because you have to prove the evidence is real as it could be claimed that it is counterfeit etc. etc.

Verdict:- Not many if any convictions and most get off the hook.
73

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 13:23:48
Electic Hermit 84

"all I am saying is that the law should apply to MPs exactly the same as it does to everyone else"

And all I am saying is the law should be applied to everybody in an honest manner without the pan-handling.

We have yet to achieve anything like this, in my view.
74

Truthseeker253,

Motherwell 20/06/2009 13:25:50
21 Colkitto,River Clyde

Obviously, wee Dougie has been taking lessons form his sister, Bendy Wendy. Sadly, I suspect that the chances of him vbeing prosecuted are about as good as were the chances that she would be.
75

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 13:33:28
87 Castle Douglas.

Examples may well be made. I certainly do not expect to see much equity being applied overall.

Evidence shall be hidden, no doubt, making the whole thing more like a lottery, in my opinion.
76

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 20/06/2009 13:34:02
"From Brown's backyard to a soundproof bedroom: The rush to repay speeds up" (no comments allowed).

One day it may be remembered as:

"The Great Westminster Stampede"

Oink oink!
77

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 13:42:03
86
Castle Douglas

"You make a statement of the obvious"

Seems it isn't "obvious" to everybody.

78

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 13:45:15
85
Fitba Krazy

"Verdict:- Not many if any convictions and most get off the hook."

Just because they don't go to jail doesn't mean they "get off the hook". A lot of political careers are being destroyed. Obviously, That is not sufficient to placate the mob. But it's not nothing.

79

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 13:53:21
93, Electric Hermit.

"A lot of political careers are being destroyed. Obviously, That is not sufficient to placate the mob. But it's not nothing."

Yeah, they are self-destructing in that case.

There is nothing wrong with people wanting MPs to be given the same treatment that they would expect to receive or have received.

If that involves what you deem over-harshness, then why would that be?
80

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 13:55:42
94
Fitba Krazy

"If that involves what you deem over-harshness, then why would that be?"

You will have to explain that one as it doesn't seem to relate to anything I have said.

81

scully,

Colchester 20/06/2009 13:59:57
Its all to late for these thieving MPs. All the damage has been done.
And its Millions they need to pay back. NOT THOUSANDS.

Now I know the Parable of Jesus when he is alleged to have said. It will be easier for a camel to go throw the eye of a needle ,Than a rich man to enter the Kingdom Of God. How true.He must have been talking about the Politicians that had him murdered, They saw Jesus as a threat to there income.nothing changes.
82

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 14:04:11
96
scully

If there is one thing this issue does not need it is a dose of religious freakery.

83

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 14:08:56
95 Electric Hermit.

Your use of the phrases "Angry Villagers" and "baying mob" suggest that you would deem some peoples' attitude towards thieving politicians as over-harsh.

Perhaps many people have been dealt in an over-harsh manner that politicians generally are excluded from.

To be angry at that seems understandable to me.

Especially people who work hard for little reward who see this gross help-yourself-fest being enacted by those who are responsible for the extreme disparity that they find themselves at the wrong end of the spectrum of.

I don't think insulting such people by referring to them as angry villagers and the baying mob is fair.

Okay, life is not fair but it is unwise to propagate this inequity. That is one of the problems in the first place.
84

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 14:25:34
98
Fitba Krazy

"Your use of the phrases "Angry Villagers" and "baying mob" suggest that you would deem some peoples' attitude towards thieving politicians as over-harsh."

Anger I can understand. But some people - those I refer to as "Angry Villagers" - are being totally irrational. Unless you consider calling for MPs to be shot and/or strung up from lamp-posts and/or thrown in the Thames to be a reasonable reaction to what is, for the most part, no more than a petty expenses fiddle.

The media, particularly The Telegraph, is driving this hysteria. It would be naive in the extreme to suppose that those controlling the media do not have their own agenda. It is high time people were asking some penetrating questions about the way The Telegraph has handled its "revelations".

To those with an eye on history, the generalised vilification of the political class has very ominous echoes of the anti-parliamentary campaigns that were a precursor to the rise of totalitarian governments in Europe in the early to mid 20th century.

Be angry, by all means. But be wary of those who would exploit your anger.

85

scully,

Colchester 20/06/2009 14:33:16

97 Electric Hermit?

It is a great pity that the Thieving MPS did not love their neighbour as themselves, And it is not Religion I Practice . I don't take part in any kind of Religion. What I have is faith..Like a large majority in this country. Think about what I have just said. How do you want people to treat you.with respect to how you feel about yourself. not to humiliate you or treat you like an idiot. If that is what you want from others . then you make sure you treat your neighbour as you want to be treated.Blind faith can bring you throw many thinks.Sorry to have offended you.
86

disgusted with courts,

20/06/2009 14:34:38
Electric hermit.....

You need to talk sense or Zip it!!!

Are you in politics by any chance? or do you just enjoy your own opinions?


87

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 14:40:40
101
disgusted with courts

At least I have a considered opinion. As well as the ability to express it.

And isn't that exactly what this facility is supposed to be for?

88

scully,

Colchester/ 20/06/2009 14:41:06
97 Electric Hermit.

Do you ever watch the Search and rescue Teams on Television. I do. When they go out to Rescue people climbing mountains in gale force nine winds and below freezing Temperatures . and their wearing sneakers., Now that must be blind faith. .Knowing Search and Rescue will come and fetch them to safety. So lighten up you silly person.
89

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 14:41:36
Electric Hermit,

I imagine those penalties you suggest are being uttered by some are in most cases hypothetical.

No doubt the Telegraph does have it's own agenda, like ensuring a Conservative victory at the next G.E. perhaps.

I have been through the angry stuff, but as the old saying goes, don't get mad, get even, and I am thoroughly enjoying the internal combustion of the Labour Party hypocrites, thieves and liars, but I won't get back the years I spent setting up a business to the point of beginning to reap the benefits only for a Labour Council to deliberately destroy it through their sectarian, nepotistic, extreme favouritism.
90

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 14:42:04
100
scully

I don't do faith. I do reason.

91

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

20/06/2009 14:45:33
Latest from Angry villager Central :

Meanwhile, the Metropolitan Police said a joint assessment panel of senior detectives and prosecutors had decided full inquiries are necessary into allegations that expenses were misused.

Investigations are expected to focus on politicians accused of deliberately misleading the authorities or claiming "phantom" mortgages.

The investigation will be conducted by officers from the Met's Economic and Specialist Crime Command, overseen by Temporary Assistant Commissioner Janet van Helsing-Williams.

It is understood the joint panel of experts will continue to consider a small number of other individuals.
92

Joe90,

20/06/2009 14:49:13
Pilrig #41 & #42
Mea culpa. I forgot that by 'employing' his wife and daughter as staff members he had taken two worthy ladies off the public purse (ie unemployment benefits), so maybe you are right. He did do something for at least two residents of Glasgow East!
93

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 14:51:04
Scotland Yard has decided to launch an investigation into the alleged misuse of expenses by a small number of MPs and peers, the BBC has learned. - http://tiny.pl/3nlk

Note the words "small number". Exactly as I said.

Perhaps this announcement will at least shut up the ill-informed whingers who keep banging on about the police supposedly doing nothing.

94

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

20/06/2009 14:54:26
Oh dear! It's beginning to look like Ten Little Unionists.

more from the same source:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latest-national-news/Lib-Dem-cash-39to-be.5385960.jp
95

disgusted with courts,

20/06/2009 15:05:12
Electric Hermit......

Yes this is what this forum is for....to express your opinion, not to belittle and put down other peoples' opinions.

It is obvious this is what you use this for, you really do believe you know it all.
They (the Westminster thieves)should be charged and prosecuted to the full extent of the law, lose their positions, and no nice fat pension as a reward for deceiving and stealing from the very people who trusted them to look after their interests.
So....while people are losing their jobs, homes, schools are closing for lack of funds, they are living the good life.
Careers are being destroyed??? they should have thought of that when they were chuckling and claiming for non-existent mortgages and all the other expenses they "stole" while others suffered....
Read what they charged and claimed for.....it is sickening.
It is because of the way the people have reacted that Scotland Yard feel the need to step in "at last"
96

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

20/06/2009 15:05:30
#108 Electric Hermit

I think the "small number" is over and above the main focus of the investigations ie "politicians accused of deliberately misleading the authorities or claiming "phantom" mortgages."

It wont be a mass slaughter of of Kitkat and Toblerone munchers or MP's who have a penchant for fancy corkscrews and alarm clocks.

My only hope is that this investigation is carried out diligently, equitably and without prejudice.
97

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 15:09:13
110
disgusted with courts

"It is because of the way the people have reacted that Scotland Yard feel the need to step in "at last""

Rubbish! The panel was set up weeks ago.

98

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 15:17:16
111
The Col. of Monte Cristo

"My only hope is that this investigation is carried out diligently, equitably and without prejudice."

No reason to expect otherwise. It is, after all, very much in the public eye.

But that won't stop the Angry Villagers bleating about a "cover-up" every time the Met/CPS decide not to prosecute.

99

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 17:01:30
113 Electric Hermit.

Well, if you are correct, I would expect to see quite a few bankrupted politicians after having their proceeds of crime confiscated. Since they have most likely been spending on extravagant items beyond what their legitimate incomes allows that would leave them SKINT and unable to continue after prosecution.

After all, those two-faced hypocrites have no qualms whatsoever about the resultant bankruptcies and losses suffered by the victims of political corruption and indeed are blatantly prepared to turn a blind eye to that whilst they gorge themselves on the wealth created by those they exploit ruthlessly and treat as idiots.

Some people have been forced into bankruptcy for a fraction of the amount these politicians have FALSELY claimed and I assume most of them will NOT be prosecuted.

Pay back time, right enough.
100

letmein,

hinterland 20/06/2009 17:06:32
I think the Daily Record should be investigated for not mentioning Dougie Alexander' stealing £12600. Is he paying them to keep it out of the papers.
What is happening about Irene Adams, caught paying her daughter and her bidie in wages when they were councillors.
Paisley Daily Express choose to say nothing about the labour party. Is Hugh Henry still threatening them.
101

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 17:11:25
114
Fitba Krazy

"Well, if you are correct, I would expect to see quite a few bankrupted politicians after having their proceeds of crime confiscated."

They have to be convicted of a crime first. In most cases, however much you my deplore their behaviour from the vantage point of your towering moral superiority, no crime has been committed.

Somehow, I doubt that many former MPs will struggle to make a living.

102

dunedin bully wee 1877,

20/06/2009 17:49:12
116 Electric Hermit

You may be correct, but I wonder why Eric Joyce appeared to be auditioning for a job as a “Big Issue” seller on Thursday’s Newsnight.
103

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 17:49:31
Electric Hermit 116

So, claiming for a non existent mortgage and/or items that are NOT for use in the course of your work and deliberately changing your main residence falsely to claim illegal expenses amounting to thousands of pounds and to evade the tax liabilities is not a crime?

Well there must indeed be a different set of laws for politicians who do so. The same politicians who spend millions on scaring "benefit cheats" who in many cases would be better off anyway being legitimate and claiming tax credits and return to work credits if only the greedy politicians would tell the "benefit cheats" about them instead of penny-pinching by keeping quiet about that.

Also if some of these "benefit cheats" were as adept at being awarded public finance for their artistic abilities or scientific bumph on a par with many chancers who do so then there would be no need to work casual for the odd £20 or whatever.

Those who pochle benefit claims are not in the same league as corrupt politicians and yet get much more hassle AND jail sentences. Now I would say that is grossly inequitable considering what has been going on with the Labour Party in Scotland, for example, wouldn't you?
104

Jerry Springer,

20/06/2009 18:10:42
Eric Joyce must be investigated by the police.

Gordon Brewer was superb (as always) when he interviewed/interrogated him.

Joyce's smugness was soon wiped off his face and his unusually constant mumbling suggested to me obvious guilt.
105

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/06/2009 18:22:07
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/20/gordon-brown-guardian-interview

I think this is meant to bring tears to a glass eye. Looks like Broon is playing the pathos card.
106

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/06/2009 18:42:42
Funny how the media have managed to take the heat off themselves by this.

Hmmmm?

They just can't switch the boiler off though.
107

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 19:02:43
117
dunedin bully wee 1877

"You may be correct, but I wonder why Eric Joyce appeared to be auditioning for a job as a “Big Issue” seller on Thursday’s Newsnight."

The less said about that the better. I watched it twice. Couldn't watch it again in case I started feeling sorry for the guy.

108

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 19:05:42
118
Fitba Krazy

"So, claiming for a non existent mortgage and/or items that are NOT for use in the course of your work and deliberately changing your main residence falsely to claim illegal expenses amounting to thousands of pounds and to evade the tax liabilities is not a crime?"

Where did I say that?

And do you seriously think that is how the defence would present the case?

109

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 19:11:34
118
Fitba Krazy

"Also if some of these "benefit cheats"..."

You keep bringing other groups into it. But justice requires that each case is judged on its own merits. Not in relation to some other unspecified alleged injustice.

All of which makes me wonder if it is really justice you are interested in. Or if, like the Angry Villagers, you only want the satisfaction of seeing as many as possible suffer as much as possible.

110

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 20/06/2009 19:30:56
Now it is many MPs making a tidy little earner off council tax payments or getting the taxpayer to pick up their penalties for late payment.

This sorry saga has gone on long enough. The electorate have seen sufficient evidence to make a judgement. The time has now come for the Queen to have a word in her Prime Minister's ear and ask him if he now intends to ask her to dissolve parliament. The corruption, greed, fraud and theft has affected too many in Parliament for it now to be fit to impose laws on the rest of us. The credibility of the law and good government is at stake. This is not party political. The Queen has some limited powers. If ever there was a time that she should take the initiative it is now.

Ma'am do your duty to your people
111

Colkitto,

River Clyde 20/06/2009 19:31:53
I think the question that has to be asked is...Is Douglas Alexander still collecting rent ?
112

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/06/2009 19:45:21
Re Eric Joyce.

There is a tax free job available at Bristol Zoo for a freelance car park attendant which might just be a better earner than the one he is presently on.

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Urban-myth-Bristol-Zoo-parking-attendant/article-1073841-detail/article.html

Anyone else notice the similarity in the denials?
113

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 19:51:47
126
Huntly loon

"This is not party political. The Queen has some limited powers. If ever there was a time that she should take the initiative it is now."

You really think Elizabeth Saxe-Coburg-Gotha is daft enough to get involved in this?

114

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/06/2009 20:13:32
129, Electric Hermit.

I don't think using the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha names has any relevance to Liz Junior.

The royal succession has been non English sinse before the Welsh Twyddrs, if my history lessons are remembered correctly.

You might not have meant that but it is the way your post comes over.
115

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 20:24:32
124, 125 Electric Hermit.

You did say no crime was committed at 116

These are the alleged offences apparently backed up by evidence, the alleged perpetrators remain innocent until proven guilty. That doesn't alter the fact whether they did or did not commit the offence, but if these alleged offences did actually take place then a crime has been committed, whether they get caught and pay the penalty is another matter.

You also bring other groups into it by mentioning the Angry Villagers and the baying mob. It is a question of whether it is relevant or not or to what degree is it relevant. It could appear abstract and yet be relevant, for comparison, for example, to judge the degree of severity and to give a perspective on the disparity of treatment dished out to the poorer members of society compared with the "elitist" set, including politicians.

I am not saying they are completely immune to prosecution but it would appear they are much less likely to be so prosecuted than a "non-elite" person accused of a similar offence.

I only want to see a fairer society that refrains from scaremongering and getting involved in wars and doesn't let the "elite" away with what it punishes the poorer sections of society for thus propagating the disparity they claim to be aiming to reduce.

Is that too much?

116

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/06/2009 20:37:44
131, Fitba Krazy. I agree with you. The House of Commons is meant to be filled with commoners - not an elite of untouchables.

The thing here is to sit back and observe the situation unfold. If justice is not seen to be done then there is a case for civil unrest.

The media, having themselves seen through the refraction of the redaction should restrain themselves from inciting the mob mentality.

But perhaps the mob mentality sells the news to the masses and keeps them in business
117

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 20:54:16
132, Jock Tamson.

I stopped buying papers and got rid of my telly so as to not have to absorb their continued assault on the Scottish Peoples' right to self determination by a continual diet of anti-Scottish, scaremongering put-downs and outright bias. They perhaps like to make the news instead of reporting it and have their own agendas which include anti-Scottish Independence, from what I can gather.

The mob mentality? I am only aware of that in a football sense when it comes to the extent some nutters take the game, or perhaps football is a convenient vehicle on which to allow it to be defused in a semi-controlled environment. i.e. the crazy mentality would still exist without football and that is a way to allow it to get out: shouting and bawling at a football match. And nae wonder when you look at some of them kiddin us on they are football players.
118

Willie Mor,

20/06/2009 21:00:45
And how did this unit of political policemen belatedly come to decide who were the small number of MP's and Peers that they were proposing to investigate.


And why do we need a specialist unit of policemen to consider whether they need to investigate.

If as an individual I secure reimbusrement for a fraudulent VAT invoice for thousands of pounds for work alleged to have been carried out by a tradesman of no know identity, and I pay that self same individual in ready cash, which cash includes VAT, why does it take a specialist police unit that exonerated the cash for honours politicians to investigate.

Moreover, when a further few thousand pounds have been paid in respect of shelving which cannot be found anywhere within the confines of Scotland and England, why again does it take this specialist Met unit to investigate.

Well of cousre we all know the answer to that. Labour politicians are above the law.

In fact, as events show, they are the law.
119

,

20/06/2009 21:06:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
120

Fred Leeson,

edinburgh 20/06/2009 21:09:52
#134 Willie
The Old Bill have decided to feel Jim's collar so maybe we will see some justice at last.

http://order-order.com/

121

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/06/2009 21:16:50
133, Fitba Krazy.

At the moment there is no media outlet for Scottish independence. My heart goes out to you as I want to see an independent Scottish media. Getting it devolved is another matter,

Getting it fully autonomous from autonomouse is another other matter.

Devo lite to me is still autonomouse. Devo max is autonomous.

As for your football crowds-are they any different to any other mob with a collective mindset on a mission?

122

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 21:37:02
130
Jock Tamson

"I don't think using the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha names has any relevance to Liz Junior."

That's fine. Liz Junior doesn't have much relevance either.

123

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 21:42:20
131
Fitba Krazy

"You did say no crime was committed at 116"

You either need to read more slowly or less selectively. What I said was, "In most cases...no crime has been committed.". Which is perfectly true.

But you chose to generalise from particular aspects of those cases in which an offence may have been committed. Just like an Angry Villager.

124

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 21:44:09
137 Jock Tamson.

I think the football mob thing is actually a bit of a fallacy and is a wide generalisation to compare them to another mob.

The people who make up a football crowd contain many different personalities and it is only a small percentage who behave inappropriately and go beyond the limit.

This is different from say a lynch mob who would all be of like mind or those who stormed the Bastille in France, again of like mind and therefore different from a football crowd. Most people going to a game just want to see the game and hope their team wins, but some get intoxicated and go daft. Not them all, thankfully. Anyway, I prefer playing to watching but am considered too old by a bunch of one-footers who I am faster than in many cases. That's another story: Ageism and preferential treatment.
125

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 21:44:39
131
Fitba Krazy

"You also bring other groups into it by mentioning the Angry Villagers and the baying mob."

Behave yourself! I am using the references to "Angry Villagers" in an entirely different way. As I suspect you realise full well.

126

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 21:46:56
131
Fitba Krazy

"I am not saying they are completely immune to prosecution but it would appear they are much less likely to be so prosecuted than a "non-elite" person accused of a similar offence."

I would need to see hard evidence of that. Otherwise, it just smack of prejudice.

127

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 21:55:36
134
Willie Mor

"And how did this unit of political policemen belatedly come to decide who were the small number of MP's and Peers that they were proposing to investigate.

And why do we need a specialist unit of policemen to consider whether they need to investigate."

All serious cases are subject to evaluation by the police and prosecutors before any investigation and/or prosecution is launched. The only difference in this instance is that the sheer volume of allegations meant it was more practical to convene a panel of suitably qualified and experienced personnel from the Met and the CPS rather.

And it was not "belatedly". The panel was convened some weeks ago. As you would know if you read beyond the sensationalising headlines.

It is for you to explain your desperate need to believe the police are dooing nothing in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

128

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 21:57:20
139 Electric Hermit.

So you did. Well that's how I think it will be made to appear. But, what we will have to wait and see is, if evidence is ignored.

I think we will get a token response and, as you say yourself, will get very few convictions if any.

I also believe many crimes go unpunished and the Police themselves admit that, because of the problem getting the evidence without which nothing can be done.

There are many aspects of the law which appear pliable, for example, what constitutes infringement of the right to a fair trial? What is considered prejudicial in a newspaper story or TV for example is not always applied and other inconsistencies constantly arise. Just like refereeing decisions.

129

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/06/2009 21:58:26
138, Electric Hermit. She hasn't got much relevance to me either. She is a rubber stamp as far as I am concerned.

If I only had the power to remove the rubber stamp I would be a citizen and not a subject. I don't like cities though. They make your hair and clothes smell worse than smoking dens and the sleaze that permanently permanates the political pollution.

130

Campaign Lawer,

Elgin 20/06/2009 22:02:19
I wonder if any MP's have approached any of the Banks owned by the tax payer for a loan to pay back the tax payer.

131

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/06/2009 22:05:30
140, Fitba Krazy. I fear you have missed my point. The media can make any crowd angry before it turns up in a collective manner. You are Fitba Krazy so I used that analogy. A mob is a crowd which is not acting in a manner acceptable to the preconceived norms.
132

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 22:14:08
144
Fitba Krazy

"So you did. Well that's how I think it will be made to appear. But, what we will have to wait and see is, if evidence is ignored.

I think we will get a token response and, as you say yourself, will get very few convictions if any."

I don't accept the premise that the decision not to proceed with any case is necessarily explained by some dark conspiracy. Occam's Razor. The mundane explanations are mundane because they are most often the true explanations. And the mundane explanation is lack of adequate evidence.

Where the money has been returned, for example, there has been no gain and no loss inflicted. So it would be all but impossible to obtain a conviction for fraud.

In many other cases the claims, while excessive, were not in breach of the rules and were honest in that no false representation was made. The claim for moat cleaning really was a claim for having a moat cleaned. No dishonesty! No criminal fraud!

You may not like it. But that's the law. For everybody. Even MPs.

133

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 22:14:34
142 Electric Hermit,

Is Mike Watson still about? You could ask him. He only done 8 months for fireraising. A serious offence, a very light sentence.

http://tinyurl.com/klv99x
134

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 22:17:29
148
Electric Hermit

"You may not like it. But that's the law."

It should not be necessary to point out that this is not a definitive statement of the law. It really shouldn't. But there are Angry Villagers on the rampage, so...

135

Fred Leeson,

edinburgh 20/06/2009 22:20:23
#145 Jock, #131 Fitba etc
Why are you wasting your time with the Electric Hermit ?
He's either a paid up member of MI6 or similar. But in either case please ignore him in future. His paid job is to tie you in knots and hopefully get his agenda across and blank out any opinions. Drift across his posts but don't read them because he is VERY CLEVER. Imagine you are in Iran or somewhere. Blank out waffle and home in on posts that will enlighten you. But PLEASE ignore him.
Try reading here and follow the links to more truth..

http://subrosa-blonde.blogspot.com/
136

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 22:21:26
149
Fitba Krazy

"A serious offence, a very light sentence."

Each case on its merits. Simply knowing the offence and the sentence is not enough. Every case is tried on the basis of ALL the evidence presented.

137

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/06/2009 22:24:33
148, Electric Hermit.

I would say that where money has been repaid in a case involving fraud that it only be given a cursory consideration in the findings of the courts in the cases of MPs. This is due to the fact that they only repaying because of the public revelations.
138

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 22:24:42
151
Fred Leeson

"He's either a paid up member of MI6 or similar."

THEY'RE BEHIND YOU!!!

139

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 22:26:23
147 Jock Tamson.

I am aware the media can be a bunch of annoying yahoos but a crowd only exists when it actually is a crowd not a collection of people similarly annoyed but scattered all over the place. In that case there can only be a hypothetical or metaphorical mob, not an actual one, same with Angry Villagers. Also people are free to choose, and one of the options, now taken up in abundance, is to come to the conclusion that the media talk a load of baloney and in some cases total balderdash, but in exposing MPs expenses I believe them to be close to the truth, albeit in a limited way. It's only the tip of the iceberg and from what I've heard the Euro Parliament is worse.
140

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 22:26:57
153
Jock Tamson

"I would say that where money has been repaid in a case involving fraud..."

The point is that, if the money has been repaid (and absent other factors), then it is not fraud and should not be referred to as such.

141

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/06/2009 22:27:20
151, Fred Leeson.

I understand what you are saying but the thing is that my stir fry is not yet completed.
142

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 22:29:47
155
Fitba Krazy

"...but in exposing MPs expenses I believe them to be close to the truth..."

Like the most effective lies, the best propaganda contains as much truth as possible.

143

Fred Leeson,

edinburgh 20/06/2009 22:33:08
#154 kermit
"THEY'RE BEHIND YOU!!!"

Ha ha you wish. Why are you annoying the proles ?
Isn't it time you got ready for your rent boy ?
144

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/06/2009 22:40:59
156, Electric Hermit.

I would say that if someone committed fraud then they committed fraud. I would also say that if they paid the money back under the media spotlight then they only paid it back to try and look good.

They still committed fraud.
145

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 22:41:40
Fred Leeson,

I don't think the Electric Hermit can tie me in knots.

It's obvious to me he is understating the extent of criminality in the political world and accuses others of saying irrelevant absurdities when he himself does just that. Basically it is about evidence but that can and is manipulated by legal professionals to suit their agenda.

146

Fred Leeson,

edinburgh 20/06/2009 22:46:50
#161 Fitba
Kermits job is to tie up these sites with mumbo jumbo and to stop us from debating. He has all day to chat as that is his job. If we all drifted across his posts and ignored them then we could have a better debate.
Sadly under Labour we have every newspaper flooded with these folk.
147

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/06/2009 22:47:08
That's my slow cooked stir fry ready.

It's time for action on the refraction on the redaction.
148

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 23:01:32
162 Fred Leeson.

I first thought he was an agent provocateur and a triple agent. who is he paid by? The BBC, The Police and the SNP?
149

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 23:09:54
161
Fitba Krazy

"Basically it is about evidence but that can and is manipulated by legal professionals to suit their agenda."

It is called a defence. Something every accused is entitled to. It would be for you to explain why MPs should be denied this fundamental right.


150

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 23:11:00
163
Jock Tamson

"That's my slow cooked stir fry ready."

A contradiction in terms.

151

Fred Leeson,

edinburgh 20/06/2009 23:13:50
Neither of them. Us taxpayers unfortunately.
152

Fred Leeson,

edinburgh 20/06/2009 23:15:28
#164 Fitba
Neither of them. Us taxpayers unfortunately.
153

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 23:17:23
165 Electric Hermit.

And why would it be for me to explain why MPs should be denied this fundamental right?

Did I say they should be denied a defence?

It's obvious, given the state of affairs, that Westminster are incapable of honest government.

The Union is a sham and always has been, but they shall do everything to keep Scotland in it.

Should Scotland be denied it's rightful status by a bunch of thieving, bullying, lying twerps in Westminster?
154

Pilrig,

Livingston 20/06/2009 23:24:12
80 - if the common herd had behaved like some of the hon ladies & gentlemen their collars would have been felt by plod toot suite & their feet wouldnae have touched the groond.
155

Noxious,

20/06/2009 23:24:28
From another article which we're not allowed to comment on (wonder why?)...."Gordon Brown has vowed to lead Labour into the next general election - and declared that he will defy the polls and win the party an historic fourth successive term."

Hahahahaha - Broon must be taking the same drugs as Eric Joyce. He goes on to claim that "It has never been the trapping of power I care about but what we can do in power to help hard-pressed families,"

Does it get any better? The man who spent years trying to undermine and force out Blair in order to claim the top job for himself. A total and utter control freak. But he doesn't care about the trappings of power, only about all the hard-pressed families out there (who happen to be a bit more hard pressed thanks to his mis-management of the economy while Chancellor).
156

Pilrig,

Livingston 20/06/2009 23:29:10
117 : )
157

Pilrig,

Livingston 20/06/2009 23:33:37
171 - Broon and the other two bairns of the manse, the Alexanders offend my presbyterian conscience. Did they nod off when their faithers were deliverin their sermons ?
158

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 23:35:20
169
Fitba Krazy

"Did I say they should be denied a defence?"

You clearly object to the fact that they are allowed such a thing.

"It's obvious..."

Never was an argument.

"The Union is a sham and always has been..."

I've always found the union to be regrettably real.

"Should Scotland be denied it's rightful status by a bunch of thieving, bullying, lying twerps in Westminster?"

Should we seek to achieve that independence by such negativity? I would prefer to argue the merits of the case for secession, rather than rely on denigrating Westminster politicians in the same way that the unionist cabal denigrates the SNP.

159

Electric Hermit,

20/06/2009 23:46:55
175
Rab The Ranter™

I suppose it is less intellectually demanding to be against everything rather than for something.

160

Fitba Krazy,

20/06/2009 23:58:17
174 Electric Hermit.

The negative attitude shown by Westminster towards Scottish Independence should not be mistaken for negativity in the person stating the obvious.

Nor is it a crime to point out an offence is a crime, unlike the actual real crime.

The Union being real and also a pretence are not mutually exclusive.It was just decided that there would be one by those who had the arms and the money.

What gave them the authority?

Is that real?
161

Electric Hermit,

21/06/2009 00:10:40
177
Fitba Krazy

"It was just decided that there would be one by those who had the arms and the money."

I think there was a bit more to it than that. Which does not make the union any less of an anachronism now. Or diminish the case for Scotland's secession.

But all this is somewhat off-topic.

162

Fitba Krazy,

21/06/2009 00:23:44
Electric Hermit 178

"But all this is somewhat off-topic."

Yeah, an abstract tangent.

I'm off for now, see you.
163

Fred Leeson,

edinburgh 21/06/2009 01:06:58
#178 Kermit
How much do we have to pay you after midnight you oxygen stealer ?
Surely it's time for you to bend over for your lovely South American fancyboy.
164

Billy Boy,

Sherman Oaks Californiacation 21/06/2009 02:27:37
Does anyone really think that this is the full exposure of stealing from the public purse? This is only one part of it, these people are criminals and are likely taking everything they can get away with. As for independence for Scotland etc, it is a joke, we are fed up of the incompetence of government (Parliament) and so we create a whole new one that is even worse. The laws need to be changed to ensure that any elected official who breaks the law or commits dishonourable acts is punished severely, both socially and financially, including the loss of pensions, benefits and titles. As it is now they7 commit crimes but get to keep the booty and use their govrnment connections to move on into the political industry.

 

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