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The end of a beautiful friendship



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They were once the closest of allies, but after a traumatic week Wendy Alexander and Gordon Brown's relationship could be fractured forever – along with the future of Britain, writes Eddie Barnes
THEY speak on the phone regularly, but the call on Tuesday evening last week was unusually tense. Earlier that day, Wendy Alexander had staged a press conference in a cramped committee room at the Scottish Parliament, expressing a view that few thought they would ever hear from a Labour leader: it's time for a referendum on Scottish independence. Now Gordon Brown, her long-time mentor, protector and friend, was on the line. Later that evening, appearing on Newsnight Scotland, Alexander gave her account of how the call had gone. Had Brown explicitly endorsed her decision to call a referendum? "Yes," replied Alexander. Really? "She did speak to him, but he did not say you have my approval," a senior Labour source told Scotland on Sunday. "He said you do not have my support. There was no deal. People have been lied to." Thirteen years ago, the disputed details of another deal, when Tony Blair and Brown met to decide the party leadership in a smart London restaurant inflicted a festering wound that went on to cripple New Labour. Now, as the party reaches its apparent nadir, so emerges another.

Two things made last week's Labour pains even more remarkable: first that it should concern the previously joined-at-the-hip Brown and Alexander. And second that it should fall over a matter that could scarcely be of greater importance: the potential break-up of Britain. As the dust temporarily settles on one of the most surreal weeks in Holyrood's nine-year history, a new landscape emerges filled with gaping, and previously unimaginable, splits. There is the rift between Alexander and Brown. There is an open feud between Scottish Labour MSPs and the rest of their stunned, gob-smacked party. And then there is the biggest potential split of all, which Alexander's remarkable actions have triggered – between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

The extraordinary events of the past week have their genesis in the first frosty months of 2007 when the question first arose: should Labour back a referendum on independence? Then first minister Jack McConnell was looking ahead to the election campaign. "The whole question was discussed at some length because the referendum was becoming a big part of the campaign," said a close ally. "We knew it was a weakness that we didn't have a good answer to." McConnell was tempted to spike the Nationalist guns but backed out. Agreeing to a referendum meant ceding too much territory to the SNP, he decided. Furthermore, he believed it would create uncertainty in the business community. The idea was ditched.

After Labour's defeat in May 2007, the idea resurfaced with a vengeance. Senior Labour figures in London and Edinburgh saw a snap referendum as a way of quickly drawing the SNP's fire (one source claims Labour was about to back the plan last June, only deciding against it when Tory vice-chairman Richard Cook declared in this paper that he supported it; Labour didn't want to be seen to supporting a Tory plan). But with no clear leadership in Scotland – McConnell was still hanging on – and with Brown having taken over at Westminster, the party had little settled direction, and so the moment passed.

When Alexander took over in September, she began privately pressing to enact the plan, urging Brown at every opportunity to support it. The strategy was for Brown to bring forward an emergency bill at Westminster. That way, Labour could control the timing and wording, without having to bother about the SNP. As with the devolution referendum of 1997, Labour could easily have put forward the bill within weeks. "She was hassling Gordon about it all the time," said a senior source. Brown did not rule it out, but nor did he support it either. The idea went steadily cold.

It was last weekend that Alexander decided she'd had enough. A series of one-to-one meetings with her MSPs over recent weeks appears to have emboldened her that she had widespread support for the scheme. And with the wreckage of Labour's local government elections still smouldering, Alexander decided to act. Scotland on Sunday understands that she spoke to Downing Street declaring her plans to press ahead and was told categorically that they did not support her. Yet, after a Sunday newspaper suggested that Brown and Alexander were "on the verge" of announcing the plan, she went ahead anyway, declaring on the BBC's Politics Show that Salmond should "bring it on".

Allies of Alexander's are blunt. "Gordon can't make a decision and people have just got so fed up with it. This was just another decision he wasn't willing to make. She basically decided, well f*** you, I've got to do something," said one. The decision was tactical, says another. "This wasn't so much about having a referendum as showing up Alex Salmond for bottling out of it." The rest of the party was caught on the hop, including Alexander's advisers.

Her senior adviser, Mike Ellrick, is understood to have only heard about the change of policy on Sunday evening while jogging. Shadow cabinet ministers were told over the phone over the afternoon.

Meanwhile, Alexander's phone was soon ringing off the hook. At the Scotland Office in London – which looks over constitutional matters affecting Scotland – ministers Des Browne and David Cairns were speechless. If the new party line was that it backed an immediate referendum, the obvious question would be why didn't they introduce one immediately at Westminster? Ministers knew they had no answer.

At Holyrood, confusion was total. "If it's Tuesday, we must be backing a referendum," quipped one MSP. Alexander's laid-back press officer Simon Pia found himself surrounded by journalists at every turn, demanding to know what was going.

Labour MSPs fell into line with Alexander, taking at face value the fact that she – as Brown's closest ally – had the PM's backing. To ram home the point at a group meeting on Tuesday, MSP Duncan McNeil told the group that if they rebelled, it would be a "victory for the media".

Soon MSPs were warming to the idea – after eight years of living in Westminster's shadow, finally they were calling the shots. So when Brown distanced himself from Alexander's remarks during Prime Minister's Questions on Wednesday, it was seen as an act of betrayal. "He's stabbed her in the back. He bottled it," said a senior Labour MSP. "The MSPs have been lied to," shot back a Westminster Labour MP. "She basically thought that if she just announced this that Gordon would fall into line. He has been treated disgracefully."

Watching all this unfold was an incredulous Alex Salmond. The First Minister was at his Strichen home on Monday when news came through that his main opponent was now supporting his policy. SNP ministers struggled at first to believe it. "My first thought was: 'Oh good, that means we've got the votes,'" said one. "My second thought was 'what?'"

With Alexander's backing, a referendum is now set to take place, with SNP ministers revealing that the date will be some time in the autumn of 2010, a few months after David Cameron is tipped to have succeeded Brown as prime minister.

Salmond is aiming to capitalise on the anger of a Conservative UK victory in Scotland with a blunt message that if Scots want to kick the Tories out, they can vote for independence. Disconsolate Labour ministers in London admit there is nothing they can do about it. "There have been two tangible outcomes," says one. "One is that Alex Salmond now knows that he has a blank cheque from Labour – that whenever he wants to bring forward a referendum, we will vote for him. Secondly, he can say that everybody now agrees that it is for the Scottish Parliament to decide."

When Salmond attended a gala dinner in Glasgow on Friday, observers noted that they had never seen him in such sparkling form. No wonder.

By contrast, for Labour, the next steps lead only to further chaos. Alexander and her allies are hoping to keep up the pressure, pressing Brown to bring forward a quick referendum bill at Westminster. "They (UK Labour ministers) have the ability to bring forward a bill," said one Scottish source. "We are not going to be the whipping boys to protect Westminster again on this. They should get on with it."

Alexander's allies believe they would win the vote, enabling them to hit back against Salmond. But the move has been categorically ruled out by ministers. Ironically, Whitehall sources point out that it was Alexander's blunderbuss approach last week that has finally settled Brown's mind against a referendum. Until last week, there remained an outside chance he might be persuaded – but Alexander's inept tactics assured it was dumped.

Alexander now faces a grim struggle to cling on to her job. Those close to Brown say he will not demand her resignation. "It's not Gordon's style," said one. There are predictions that MSPs who were caught up in the whirlwind of events last week may soon come back to earth with a bump as they analyse things more soberly. If they turn, the end would be quick. "She might just walk. She might just decide she has had enough," said one source. But, in what amounts to the ultimate insult, it appears that attacks from Salmond will be guarded. "Alex didn't want to go too hard on her," said an SNP spokesman, reflecting on last week's First Minister's Questions. "It's better she stays where she is."

One Labour activist summed up the mood: "It's a good idea to put the pressure on the Nats and ask why they don't believe their own policy enough to have a referendum straight away. The problem was how she did it. She didn't tell the group what she was going to do. And she didn't think it through."

All of Alexander's vast self-belief will now be required if she is to escape last week's fiasco with her job.



It's time to put the brakes on runaway Wendy

TOM BROWN


WENDY Alexander's leadership of Scottish Labour has been like watching a car crash in slow motion. She has skidded from the crisis over dodgy donations to embarrassing performances in the Scottish Parliament, which confirmed Alex Salmond's superiority, and now to a potential national disaster over a referendum on independence.

All of this from a woman who was touted as bringing much-needed high intelligence and foresight to the job. Instead, she has been an unmitigated disaster. It cannot be long before the 'men in kilts' call on her to suggest it has all become too stressful for her. She should step aside.

In one catastrophic gesture, she has once again damaged Labour by embroiling it in an unnecessary mess; undermined Prime Minister Gordon Brown when it was the last thing he needed; handed huge advantage to the Scottish Nationalists; and exposed the loss of democracy within the Labour Party.

It is unthinkable that a policy U-turn on an issue as serious as the future of the United Kingdom should happen as a result of a knee-jerk spasm by one person on a TV programme. Yet that is what has happened. Not only did Alexander brazenly flout the authority of the Prime Minister – she did not consult her party colleagues at Holyrood or Westminster, nor the UK Ministers responsible for Scotland and the constitution. Nor did she consult the Scottish Labour party executive (now reduced to a committee of castrati) and certainly not her party members. Even MPs and others who were calling for a referendum after the SNP electoral success a year ago are appalled by her behaviour.

At the party's Scottish conference six weeks ago, there was no mention from Alexander of "bring it on". In fact, she said the Calman Commission on the constitution "is the right way to proceed", and there was no debate on the possibility nor the implications of a 'Wendyrendum'. It is understandable that members who give of their time and money are asking what is the point of belonging to a party where such arrogant behaviour is acceptable

Meanwhile, constituency officials, struggling to raise funds to contest the next UK election, are demanding to know where the money would come from to fight a referendum campaign.

I have to declare an interest: I was one of those who went to war with Ms Alexander the last time she bounced Labour into an unnecessary mess over Section 28. Although a minister in the Donald Dewar administration, she ignored Cabinet collegiality and announced the repeal of Section 28 off her own bat at a speech at Glasgow University.

My opposition was on the basis that it was simply bad politics, and I was proved right when Labour lost the Ayr by-election, which became a referendum on Section 28. Then she lost Labour one seat. Now she is blithely putting the future of the UK at risk.

The Wendy-ites who insist that she has the right to do what she wants because she is the leader of Scottish Labour are wrong. Labour is still a UK party led (albeit shakily) by Gordon Brown, and, unless there has been a Scottish breakaway, she is merely the leader of her group at Holyrood.

Yet she has high-handedly ignored the interests of the Westminster Government and MPs on a reserved matter. The icy silence from the Secretary of State for Scotland, Des Browne, and his usually outspoken minister David Cairns has been deafening.

Worst of all is what amounts to a betrayal of her friend and protector, Gordon Brown. She knew (because it had been discussed with him and her brother) that the Prime Minister felt this was not the time to become embroiled in a referendum debate. At a time when his authority is questioned, she has made him appear powerless on his own home ground.

Alexander has handed Alex Salmond a season ticket to mock Labour's shambles. She has even achieved what was thought to be the impossible, by breathing life into the near-extinct Scottish Tories, who can now garner votes as the only true Unionist party. It is time someone in Labour put the brakes on runaway Wendy.

If Labour thinks it knows how the public will vote then it is in the minority

JOHN CURTICE

ASK most politicians whether they think Scotland should become independent and you will – perhaps unusually – get a clear answer. Moreover, if you ask them the same question a month or so later you will receive – perhaps even more unusually – much the same answer.

On independence, at least, politicians typically have firm and fixed views, even if Wendy Alexander last week changed her views on an independence referendum.

However, ask the average Scot what they think about independence and their answer depends on how you pose the question. Simply ask them whether they favour independence and you may well receive a positive response. But ask them whether they want to separate from the Union and they will say no. Equally, invite them to choose between independence and devolution, and devolution usually wins out.

In recent weeks, two polls asking Scots about independence found around two-fifths in favour and two-fifths against, with the rest not sure. In contrast, two other polls that asked whether Scotland should separate from the UK reported only between a quarter and a third in favour, while a half or more wanted to remain in the Union. Meanwhile, a fifth poll claimed that even fewer than a quarter wanted independence rather than devolution.

In the months leading up to last year's Holyrood election, polls that simply asked people whether they supported independence typically found large majorities in favour. By the time the election campaign was over, a clear majority were against. Currently, opinion seems to be in between. In short, anyone who feels they know for sure how Scots will vote on independence is a fool. Nevertheless there are clues to be discerned from the polls.

The Scottish Social Attitudes survey has persistently found that around two in three believe that most of the important decisions about Scotland should be made in Edinburgh, rather than in London.

Not only is there widespread support for the Scottish Parliament having tax powers, but also nearly two-thirds would give it responsibility for deciding the level of welfare benefits – currently a step too far for most unionist politicians. Yet there is still a line most Scots do not want to cross – to be part of a country with its own armed forces and its own foreign policy. These are the quintessential attributes of real independence. Yet, according to the social attitudes survey, only one in three wants Holyrood to have such responsibilities.

So whether Scots want independence or not depends on what is meant by 'independence'. They do not want London running their domestic affairs, but they would prefer to stay within the UK. Their answers to opinion polls reflect these contradictory pressures – in favour of 'autonomy' and 'freedom', but not 'separation' or 'break-up'. The outcome of any 'yes-no' referendum on independence will depend on which of these pressures proves to be uppermost in voters' minds.

Interestingly, on the two previous occasions when independence became the subject of intense campaigning – during the 1999 and 2007 election campaigns – support for the idea fell away. This could be taken to mean that once any referendum campaign gets under way concern about 'separation' will win out. But it could also indicate that opinion is sufficiently volatile it could swing either way. Advocates of the Union should certainly want to hold any referendum in the most advantageous circumstances possible.

Yet this is not what Labour now proposes. Given the contradictory pressures in many Scots minds, it is unsurprising that the one consistent message to emerge from recent polls is that the most popular option of all is to beef up Holyrood's powers within the Union. With that on the ballot, Alex Salmond's task would be much harder. But Labour proposes a simple 'yes-no' vote on independence.

Equally, Scots might be thought most likely to put 'freedom' above 'separation' when the chief advocate of independence is a popular First Minister and its principal opponent an unpopular Prime Minister. Yet in calling for an early referendum that is precisely the backdrop against which Labour now says it wants to fight a referendum campaign. Alexander might relish the prospect of a clear ideological battle with Salmond. But she should remember that citizens are not like politicians.

• John Curtice is Professor of Politics, Strathclyde University


The full article contains 3144 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Angus Ogg,

11/05/2008 00:32:20

The friendship doesn't matter much anymore to anyone other than the two protagonists.

Wendy Alexander will be gone as Scottish Leader within the next 10 days, and Gordon will be removed via the General Election in around 500 to 600 days.

P.S. There is a rumour now circulating Holyrood that the reason Jack McConnell hasn't stepped down as MSP for Motherwell & Wishaw yet, is that he is being asked to step back in as temporary Scottish Labour Leader after Wendy goes next week.
2

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 11/05/2008 00:37:28
Tom Brown, there speaks a unionist of the old school.
I bet he's at least part enjoying this.

He always was one of the more nasty of the breed

3

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 11/05/2008 01:02:29
Can we now get back to running the country and putting all this uncertainty behind us, UUendy?

Close the door behind you, please. There's a good girl.
4

Wee Beardie,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 01:03:44
This is serious stuff, and we should be grateful to The Scotsman for providing a platform for public opinion. So can we please keep comments free from yah-boo insults.
Be hard-hitting and witty, by all means, but this is no place for the kind of personal abuse which so often spoils these debates.
5

,

11/05/2008 01:15:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
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6

Willie Macleod,

Wick 11/05/2008 01:44:17
#5 Wee Beardie I agree but I fear things wont change, As you say be witty and hard hitting.

This can be done without the personal attacks and vile comments we see on these forums on a daily basis,
7

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 01:59:23
6 ooo i have a fakey who is very annoyed and angry woo hooo.
8

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 11/05/2008 02:15:10
Tom Brown said Wendy “exposed the loss of democracy within the Labour Party” – as if it had ever existed .
9

overshot,

perth 11/05/2008 03:05:08
Spot on Wee Beardie. over the last few days there has been reference to speech impediments, and overweight people. This not intelligent debate, it is play ground politics. Keep it mature.
10

Watson,

Irvine 11/05/2008 03:43:33
Tom Brown is like the band on the Titanic
11

donald,

glasgow 11/05/2008 05:59:15
Labour does not have any friends, not even in the Unionist Coalition. Even their SWP pimps have desrrted them.

Labour is a collection of backstabbing careerist individuals with no thoughts whatsoever on a socialist programme.
12

Mrs Miggins,

11/05/2008 07:28:08
Instead of shooting the fox, Wendy lowered the gun and blew her foot off. It is hard to imagine a policy decision so spectacularly back-firing, though harder still to see how she couldn't see it coming. The entire political landscape has been transformed. Labour will go into meltdown in Scotland on a scale never before seen at the next election, losing Unionist votes to the Tories, and even more to the SNP just as Cameron takes office. Alex Salmond surely cannot believe his luck. Then again, Wendy may prove to be the best argument against independence there ever was: if such stupidity - and there is no other word for it - can come from the leader of the Labour Party in Scotland, what level of incompetence can we expect across a whole administration?
13

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 11/05/2008 08:27:08
LABOUR: Gordo + Bendy = CAR CRASH POLITICS.

Labour - sorry, LIEbour - no longer speaks for Scotland - thank God!!
14

Rodster,

Glasgow 11/05/2008 08:28:41
As they say , "you just could not make this up "

The Scottish electorate now treated like idiots by Labour can see for themselves that only 1 Party cares about Scotland and the and the peoples living there.
Westminster says jump and the Unionists say "How high boss?"
Bring on the General Election get rid of Quisling Brown and his bottlers .
To quote Wendy U turn Bring it on !!!
15

mike3,

Midlands 11/05/2008 08:31:09
And they are two that scrambled to the top in Scot's Labour. Trouble is, seems to be more difficult to keep the covers on things at the moment.
16

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 11/05/2008 08:43:25
Brown's in an impossible position too - he has to slap her down, but has not long ago endorsed her as the next FM in Scotland! Should be an interested FMQs and PMQS this week.

The whole affair betrays Wend's shallow allegiance and her interest in no. 1 rather than the rest of her colleagues in Scotland and London. The people of Scotland, often mentioned as her main concern just take their place somewhere far down the queue behind her vain ambition.
17

Hamish Scott,

11/05/2008 09:04:08
#13
Labour are a British party operating in the Union. Surely Labour's incompetence is a reflection of the Union?
18

Mrs Miggins,

11/05/2008 09:17:30
Col Blimp - nice one. I am Scottish and my last comment is obviously tongue in cheek hyperbole. Alex Salmond, to go no further, is as shrewd as they come.

But this surely stands out as the most crass and badly thought out piece of politicking seen for some time anywhere in the UK, which is to say, in the face of some extraordinarily stiff competition. I still can't get over it. "Bring it on"? Is that not what Bush said about the Iraqi insurgency just when it began? That's not politics, much less constitutional politics: that's pub talk. And it's not just Wendy. The parliamentary Scottish Labour Party seems to back her. Whatever they've been smoking, I want some of it.

The road to Scottish independence has been opened wide by Wendy and her pals; and Salmond is too smart not to take advantage, and a Cameron victory will seal the matter.

Here we go!
19

Richard Head,

11/05/2008 09:29:22
Politics is becoming even more boring now.
Everybody back stabs everybody else.
Without exception.
20

shivago8,

livingston 11/05/2008 09:46:53
The end is near for the two of them and for the new old labour.
HALLELUJAH HALLELUJAH HALLELUJAH
AMEN
21

Alberto.,

11/05/2008 09:59:01
Gordon Brown / Wendy Alexander, probably two of the obvious reasons why the Country is in the state it is - and must be the laughing stock of the World!

A first class example of the chaos that prevails, not only in the Political field - but probably in many commercial pastures as well, caused by the system of people getting promoted beyond their capabilities via Cronyism, Favouritism, appropriate donation to the right place, knows a man, friends promise - and a large touch of the Peter Principle - proving almost beyond any doubt - 'it just don't work!'

No wonder we have a Country in such a state as it is - and virtually nothing better showing on the horizon!
22

Scotsgait - The Independent Portal to Scotland,

www.scotsgait.co.uk 11/05/2008 10:42:16
So who's picking fights with Westminster now ?
23

Jay Kay,

11/05/2008 10:58:37
Lets not forget who's going to be piloting the helm from the EU Tony red eyes and horns blair, so not only are we to be governed from Westmonster were going to be dancing to the fiddle of the devil himself from the EU parliment building, puppets controlling puppets pulling wee jacks strings (0nce he is returned to leading the nulab in Scotland) and all the time the people of the country will be getting reamed out for more stealth taxes higher fuel bills, cost of the basics such as food and water, the true facts over an increase of gang culture and violent crime being fudged by tony and gordies highly paid fat cat spin doctors and all the while they bleed the country dry until there is nothing left but a dry rotting husk, then and only then can we have our say on independence, why not weve taken all your oil and gas, we have all your money in the bank of England which your not getting back, then we can cut you free.

Don't trust Nulabour and I never will, and oh UUUUUUU turn wendy what a leader, such a leader we could never hope for such a shining star to be running the country. Thankfully not.

Come on wee eck the oppertunity is there stick the knife in and turn it, this is your chance.
24

sm753,

11/05/2008 11:27:43

Cack-handed incompetence by Alexander and Brown, but personally I care very little about it. This is a fuss over nothing.

When will the referendum happen? Don't know and don't particularly care (except about the disruption and WASTE OF MONEY).

Who controls the form of the referendum and the wording? Parliament, i.e. the Unionist parties.

So who will win? We Unionists - and thus both Scotland and the UK. Then back to things that matter.
25

sm753,

11/05/2008 11:27:50

Cack-handed incompetence by Alexander and Brown, but personally I care very little about it. This is a fuss over nothing.

When will the referendum happen? Don't know and don't particularly care (except about the disruption and WASTE OF MONEY).

Who controls the form of the referendum and the wording? Parliament, i.e. the Unionist parties.

So who will win? We Unionists - and thus both Scotland and the UK. Then back to things that matter.
26

Mrs Miggins,

11/05/2008 11:30:21
AM2 - nice on. Yes, the mixed metaphor gets better:

Wendy picked up the unionist gun to shoot the nationalist fox, inadvertently squeezed the trigger as it was pointing at her foot, where upon it backfired, thus committing political suicide....

...who came up with that fox metaphor anyway? It is blatantly insulting to nationalists.
27

karinxxx,

11/05/2008 11:30:39
ah the unionists are hiding here are they. Too chicken to go on the main thread are you?
28

Mrs Miggins,

11/05/2008 11:47:45
Don't get "natty" with me...;-)
29

megz,

11/05/2008 12:26:09
(now reduced to a committee of castrati) ouch bet that hurt.

30

Mrs Miggins,

11/05/2008 12:36:35
AM2 - I used to be a reluctant Unionist, now I'm a reluctant Nationalist. Iraq sealed it for me. There is no end in sight to the delusions of grandeur of the British State, it doesn't matter what government is in London. I'd rather be part of a more modest, perhaps even poorer country, than have anything to do with such infamy.
31

Brian S,

London/Edinburgh 11/05/2008 13:39:50
If there were to be a 3 option referendum, I would be tempted to vote for a beefed up parliament. I would only accept this if areas such as taxation, oil revenues, broadcasting, pensions and welfare were handed over to Holyrood. If they try to fudge the issue and offer only token powers then I will be vote YES to separation.

I think the SNP have shown that our problems are best served by our own parliament. I look forward to seeing those powers substantially increased, be it through a new federal UK or outright independence.
32

Mrs Miggins,

11/05/2008 14:01:29
I agree with Brian, there are degrees to this. The best thing that could happen is for the British state to break into its constituent parts, a very loose Federation with one head of state (the Queen most probably, though personally I am a Republican).

AM2,I think it's fantastical to compare the British state, one of the most martial in history, to Poland and Denmark. The British state has been on a perpetual, low intensity war footing for as long as I can remember, - Ireland, The Falklands, Iraq, Afghanistan, not to mention the slur on our good names that is Gibraltar. What would we say if Spain or Argentina "owned" the Hebrides? With an independent Scotland, we would be free the horrible arrogance behind such international anomalies. Trident is in the the same vein as all of this by the way, it is merely the most recent case of what I am referring to.

More importantly, Scotland could address a number of issues that London never will. There are massive problems of deprivation, alcoholism and atrocious housing that are simply a scandal in a European context and that devolution as it stands just won't fix. If Kosovo has had a green light from the EU as an independent nation, and the Faroe Islands too, why shouldn't we?

By the way, it not a one way street - we Scots are about as popular now in London as we were just after the Union. The question now is no longer "why independence" it is "why union?".
33

,

11/05/2008 14:01:55
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34

,

11/05/2008 14:07:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
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35

,

11/05/2008 14:11:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
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36

Steve,

Bo'ness 11/05/2008 15:03:50
Under which circumstances would Argentina have "perfectly legitimate claims" on Benbecula AM2?



37

sm753,

11/05/2008 17:02:14
41

Tripe.

The referendum needs a bill in Parliament, no?

So the Nats introduce their bill saying "we want a referendum and the question will say X".

And the other parties promptly vote through an amendment saying "no, the referendum question is Z".

Job done.

38

interstellarmince,

outer-space 11/05/2008 17:21:38
# sm753

Get back to your x-box...
39

interstellarmince,

outer-space 11/05/2008 17:24:33


Usual dross from the nexus six prelicant AM2...
40

SokeBoy,

In England!!! 11/05/2008 17:27:49
@ Mrs Miggins (post 39):

As an English nationalist I am pleased that Wee Wendy has helped to add to the debate. It is time that the nations of our Islands abolished the UK and forged a new partnership beyond the straitjacket of the Union.

I would like to see an arrangement similar to the Nordic Coucil, as utilised by the Scandinavian nations. In that partnership, all five nations work together on issues of mutual interest even though two of them (Norway and Iceland) are not part of the EU.

In a similar fashion, I could imagine a possibly-united Ireland, and a newly independent Wales and Scotland staying within the EU, whilst England may well leave. However, once again we would all have issues of mutual interest (eg immigration, the Environment and renewable energy sources, possibly even defence) on which it would be beneficial to work together.

Even though I am pleased to see the debate being taken foward in Scotland, due to my wish for English independence, I still consider myself to be British. But my Britishness is more akin to being a Scandinavian.

There is not one Scandinavian nation, there are five.

In a similar fashion, it is time to sack the UK and realise that there is not one 'British' nation but a collection of British nations.

Keep it up Scotland!
41

Mrs Miggins,

11/05/2008 17:51:42
SokeBoy,In England...I couldn't agree with you more. A loose, democratic, opt-in opt-out structure for the four nations of the Isles should be the ultimate goal, and England is obviously no exception to that. That would be a genuinely exciting development for North European politics and would provide a desperately needed shot in the arm to democracy in these Isles. If it serves to get that kind of debate going, the nats in Scotland are doing a favour to the rest of the UK. I can't believe that more English people haven't tired of the House of Lords, more foreign wars, Britain on the UN security (an outright joke), Europhobia, God save the Queen and the pound nonsense which passes for the national debate.

Good luck to you!

I'd say we've work cut out!
42

SokeBoy,

The World's Best Nation- With The World's Best Nei 11/05/2008 18:14:12
Well, I HAVE tired of bloody awful foreign wars, the joke that is the undemocratic cronyism of the House of Lords and an unelected Head of State who is only there because one of her ancestors was good at killing English peasants. I want to see a new constitutional settlement for England once the Union is finally dissolved.

However, you may well be pro-EU but I am not. What Scotland chooses to do is up it's people but I think that many English people would prefer to withdraw from the EU, myself included.

Even if England stayed within the EU as an independent nation, the EU would still try to push through that awful plan for 'regionalisation'= but we don't want it!
Most people here would prefer an English parliament, whether inside or outside the UK rather than crappy 'regional assemblies' packed full of more useless parasitic politicians.

Remember- if more politicians are the answer then it must've been a VERY stupid question!

However, I am NOT anti-European. I am anti-EU- there's a difference. I want all the nations of Europe to work together- but I don't want to lose my sense of nationhood in order to do so.

In a similar way I am not anti-British. I am anti-UK, the so-called 'British state'. for which in recent years many good men and women, from both your nation and mine (and Wales and NI) have died.

Well, that's not a 'nation' I wish to part of any longer.

Down with the UK and up with the free, democratic and INDEPENDENT British nations!

Rant over....erm

*blushes*
43

SokeBoy,

England (near Wales) 11/05/2008 18:33:00
Mrs Miggins,

You are also right re: the SNP. Mr Salmond and his party are doing a great job, not just in pushing foward the debate in Scotland- but the rest of the UK as well.

It is much needed. Please keep up the pressure!
44

sm753,

11/05/2008 19:08:23
48/49 - "Interstellar mince"

Interesting name - apt.

Nat-baiting - sport of kings.

"Thou, too, sail on, O Ship of State!
Sail on, O Union, strong and great!"

- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
45

SokeBoy,

Albion 11/05/2008 19:24:30
@sm753:

I don't know if you've noticed but the 'Union Ship' has hit a very large iceberg.

You'll be pleased to know that Captain Brown has orderd the band to ignore the obvious problems and keep on playing whilst Ensign Alexander hastily rearranges the deckchairs.
46

,

11/05/2008 20:45:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
47

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

11/05/2008 23:41:41
55
SokeBoy,
Albion 11/05/2008 19:24:30
@sm753:

"I don't know if you've noticed but the 'Union Ship' has hit a very large iceberg.

You'll be pleased to know that Captain Brown has orderd the band to ignore the obvious problems and keep on playing whilst Ensign Alexander hastily rearranges the deckchairs."





Master Bates and Seaman Staines are on crowd control as is Roger the Cabin Boy.

The Unionist eunuchs are running around looking for a way to save the Emperor, as he broods in his chamber.

The malevolent dwarf continues doing cartwheels and back flips trying to catch his eye. (Pun intended.)

Meanwhile Burma continues to require regime change and Gordon Brown said.................





















































































































































The End.
48

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 02:13:16
Prof John Curtice said in his piece:

"Advocates of the Union should certainly want to hold any referendum in the 'most advantageous circumstances possible'." end quote.

Excuse me but isn't that what Wendy and co are accusing the SNP of doing by holding the referendum in 2010?

News flash Wendy. That's politics, the same politics that stopped your own boss Gordon Brown from calling a General Election last year when he saw Labour plummeting in the polls. Another phrase might be COMMON SENSE.

Finally I totally agree with Wardog, Wendy's performance on the Politics Show today was woeful. SNP running scared of a referendum? Only a fool would swallow that garbage.
49

SokeBoy,

Next-Door To The World's Greatest Little Nation!! 12/05/2008 10:42:59
@ Brian Hill:

Wendy is obviously talking a load of BS. The SNP aren't scared of a referendum. Salmond is showing good sense by showing Scots what an SNP Government can do before calling a referendum.

I have one small criticism of Mr Salmond, however- and he may have done this in Scotland but South of the Border we may not have heard about it, so please indulge me.

I would hope he is willing to offer a positive vision of Scotland's relationship, not only with England but all the nations of our Islands once the Union has finally been dissolved. I draw your attention to my previous posts where I suggest the Nordic Council as a model for our Islands.

I would hope he could do this in order to widen the debate. Many people both sides of the Border seem to think that the end of the Union will mean the end of the good relationship between Scotland, England and the rest of the UK. My belief is that whilst political independence is an excellent idea for all our nations we must also recognise that there will still be a great amount of mutual interdependence. For example, co-operating on border/immigration, security and environmental issues.

Although he may be doing this in Scotland, I'd appreciate it if Mr Salmond could find the time to outline a post-Union partnership that may convince those in both of our nations who are sceptical about independence.
50

SokeBoy,

In England- But Totally Loving Caledonia!!! 12/05/2008 23:02:21
Come on- where's all the Tartan Unionists??

Please debate me!

Viva Albion- and Alba, too!
51

SokeBoy,

16/05/2008 19:07:34
Well, it looks as if nobody wishes to debate me.

Is it because I iz English?

Or is it because even the staunchest Scottish unionists know deep down that the Union is no longer fit for purpose? Why should any of us strive to maintain an outdated institution?

Time for our nations to move on and work together in a better, more equal fashion!



W
52

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 17/05/2008 16:53:38
In response to #52,I think that Alec Salmond has emphasised the need to encourage the nourishement of the social relationship among UK countries after independence.I aggree that more should be done.The collaboration among Scandanavian countries is a good model.
53

SokeBoy,

East of Offa's Dyke 17/05/2008 21:22:41
Thank you Suomi. Nice to know that somebody is willing to agree with my suggestion!

And it is also nice to hear that Mr Salmond and I agree on such an issue.

Great minds obviously think alike!

 

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