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The Thatcher era was 20 years ago – get over it



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Published Date: 23 July 2008
By Gerry Hassan
IT MAY be a long time since Margaret Thatcher was prime minister, but to some people it still seems like only yesterday. In the past week, the legacy, meaning and contemporary relevance of Mrs Thatcher, her reign and her era were thrown into sharp focus with the distasteful public discussion of whether she should have the honour and trappings of a state funeral.
Leaving aside the merits of a state funeral – there have been only nine for non-heads of state, including those of former prime ministers the Duke of Wellington, Palmerston, Gladstone and Churchill – what the current debate has shown is how deep the...



The full article contains 1044 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 22 July 2008 9:13 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

AM2,

Scotland,UK 22/07/2008 23:20:17
Excellent article. Spot on!
2

gus1940,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 08:15:48
I'm certainly not interested in the state funeral but I shall be first in the queue for a ticket to the dance.
3

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 09:11:35
It is macabre, to say the least, to discuss someone's eventual funeral arrangements.

However, Lady Thatcher was no ordinary someone, and
it is not only those on the Left of politics who object to her proposed State Funeral and, excepting her reactionary Right-Wing supporters, many others of varying political opinions also find this prospect distasteful.

It is still claimed Lady Thatcher 'saved' England vis-a-vis the United Kingdom when in fact this highly divisive figure was the catalyst for Scottish Devolution and an upsurge in Nationalism!

Some day historians might well record that Lady Thatcher's scorched earth policies never saved the Union but ultimately she was responsible for the breakup of this unitary state?
4

McGinty,

23/07/2008 09:23:15
'...Yes, it is true that Blair is the "son of Thatcher" who could not have happened without her, but to many on the Left he was the ultimate betrayal and denial of left-wing hopes by making the Labour Party safe from socialism.

This hints at a wider reason for the bitterness against Thatcher. Left-wing criticism of her feels contemporary and current – ie, about the here and now, rather than the past – because Thatcher's ideas and values, for all their limitations, became ascendant and triumphed...'

Exactly. He defines why people still dislike her, her regime and her ideals, yet he indulges in sycophancy and decries the pluralism and diversity necessary in healthy politics to look beyond the status quo. Another rant from a patronising, self-righteous Tory snob.
5

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 23/07/2008 10:04:25
Most of us can get over Thatcher - forget her if not forgive her. Why don't you direct your analysis to the nostalgic right-wing unionists who go misty eyed at the mention of her name, and cry in their beer over the lost days when Britain was truly great, and the working class had been put in its place? They will never realise that she destroyed the Britain they loved, and put something ugly in its place, and that Blair consolidated her political vandalism.
Let us celebrate the fact that Scotland is now escaping from her bitter legacy, and is recovering the values and humanity that she did her best to destroy. I believe that modern Scottish conservatism is also quietly and unobtrusively expunging the baleful influence of Thatcher, although they understandably find it impossible to openly acknowledge this.
I could never vote for the Tories, but I accept that they will speak for a substantial number of Scots in the new, independent country, and in less strident tones, more in accord with true Scottish liberal values.
6

Ken S.,

Reading 23/07/2008 10:15:16
#3 Mr. Lachie Todd,
Now here's a event - I normally agree broadly with your take on events! However, on this occasion:

"It is macabre, to say the least, to discuss someone's eventual funeral arrangements."
Preplanning is necessary for any major occasion, Mrs T or otherwise, and plenty of ordinary people prepay and specify their funeral arrangements.


"..Lady Thatcher ...this highly divisive figure was the catalyst for Scottish Devolution and an upsurge in Nationalism! ..ultimately she was responsible for the breakup of this unitary state.."

Irrespective of the rights or wrongs of your viewpoint, if the Union was so fragile that it could not withstand a short period (measured against centuries) of this contentious PM, then it couldn't have been that strong. SNP had established itself before her time and Labour's keenness on devolution was for reasons other than that good lady.
7

AM2,

Scotland,UK 23/07/2008 10:29:14
It has for some time astonished me that some on the Left (including the Nationalist Left) regard the de-industrialisation of the Thatcher years as an act of vindictiveness.

Can anyone give me a glimpse of how Scotland would now be had Thatcher not rolled back the years of unsustainable socialist malaise?

Would we still be digging expensive coal, building subsidised ships, pressing unprofitable steel, working a three-day week and rationing electricity? How could heavy industry in Scotland, uniquely among Western countries, have competed with the Far East? Would we want their wages and working conditions?

The Thatcher years were undeniably tough and the “recovery” slow but the only alternative would have been to delay the inevitable and extend our pain.

But now look at us. Scotland has record low unemployment. Our 25-year average low growth, much cited by the nationalists as “evidence” of the “failure” of the Union, is a matter of history. Scottish GDP (PPP$ per capita) overtook Germany in 2004. It’s now within spitting distance of Sweden, France and Finland, and growing considerably faster than any of those three.

Scottish growth is now outperforming the UK average. Scottish per capita GDP (even without oil) is now surpassed in the UK only by London and SE England.

Home ownership has doubled since 1981. About two-thirds of people in Scotland now own their own home, with the resultant increase in civic pride.

Earnings and disposable incomes have for several years been rising significantly faster in Scotland than in other parts of the UK. The post-Thatcher “McJobs” phenomenon is now very definitely on the wane.

We have become world leaders in electronics, biotechnology, GM crops and nanotechnology.

Educational performance in Scotland is above both the UK and European average. Relative poverty is lower in Scotland than the UK average, with achievable targets to lower it further.

Yes, there’s still a long way still to go. The benefits haven
8

AM2,

Scotland,UK 23/07/2008 10:29:45
[continued]

Yes, there’s still a long way still to go. The benefits haven’t been spread geographically, and our public health record is still dismal in a number of key respects. Our business startup rate is still lamentable.

But without the paradigm shift and self-sufficiency forced on us by the Thatcher government, we wouldn’t be in anywhere near as strong a position to address such ongoing issues.
9

snecked,

Argyll 23/07/2008 11:31:43
AM2

What utter bullsh*t.
Margaret Thatcher paraded Tory prejudices and dressed them up as policies.
On a campaign of disinformation and lies she transferred the most efficient part of British Steel - the Scottish steel plants - to the North East of England and South Wales - and the knock on effect of this rendered whole areas of central Scotland (the cradle of the industrial revolution)jobless wastelands. Her efforts and that of the Tory Blairite Governments have reduced the British economy to the buying of debt and the selling of money.
The service industry is it?
Funeral service, perhaps.
Scotland, thankfully, is well on its way to getting out of the floundering state called the UK.
10

AM2,

Scotland,UK 23/07/2008 12:36:13
#9 snecked

Your post suggests a conspiratorial bias and a degree of Scottish vs English resentment which I'm not going to be able to address.

Clearly you're of an “Old Labour” mindset. But if you imagine that an independent Scotland would be capable of bucking global economic trends, I would simply remind you of the words of Jim Mather, SNP Minister for Enterprise, Energy and Tourism.

He said: “any notion that an independent Scotland would be a left-wing country is delusional nonsense” and that most Scots “have enough experience of left-wing policies to know that they only make matters worse.”
11

McGinty,

23/07/2008 16:47:20
'the list of Thatcher "war crimes" is very partial and selective'

It wasn't just about Thatcher anyway, it was about people like Parkinson, Tebbit and Howard and a kind of fundamentalism with which the world is now awash and which perhaps a majority of Britain now acccepts as the only way of doing politics and economics. If she was so wonderful, why did she screw up so badly and have to get sacked?

AM2, your wordiness is impressive, but sometimes people just know deep down what's going on and you may be able to rationalise away, but ultimately people, often after they have gone through the arguments a million times, will still look beyond these rationalisations and see things differently. Who knows what would have happened had Thatcher not been leader, but probably things would have gone in a similar direction economically, perhaps more like Germany, and we might have been spared the patronising and empty paternalism, the sneering, the contempt, the nationalism, the vitriol, the greed and materialism, the warmmongering, the belligerence, the arrogance, the ruthless accumulation of centralised power and other evils associated with the eighties Tories and the associated toffs, yuppies and wideboys.
12

Allan(handofgod137),

23/07/2008 16:51:32
AM2 , You forgot to mention the fact that Thatcher didn't instigate any cover ups when Tory ministers broke the law. As for the rest of you whining leftists, GET OVER IT!
13

Allan(handofgod137),

23/07/2008 16:55:54
AM2 , You forgot to mention the fact that Thatcher didn't instigate any cover ups when Tory ministers broke the law. As for the rest of you whining leftists, GET OVER IT!
14

Conan the Librarian™,

23/07/2008 17:25:05
A State funeral? OK.

I've got a nice sharp stake and a maul, just to make sure...
15

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 23/07/2008 19:46:41
Let's not be uncharitable towards an old lady in her final years. She will soon be joining her friend General Pinochet in whatever place has been prepared for them. There they can reminisce for all eternity on their works, and look forward to being joined in the future by the Three Bs - Blair, Brown and Bush.
Meanwhile, the rest of us must repair the broken society and damaged world they will leave behind.
16

John PM,

Edinburgh, Scotland 23/07/2008 21:38:58
Thatcher may have been loved retrospectively in England but she and her party remain detested in Scotland for good reason.

She and her party denied our country devolution for twenty years after we voted for it. She used North Sea Oil to cripple the trade union movement and maintain huge levels of unemployment, she tried to undermine the principle of free education and free health care and basically made the rich richer and the poor, poorer. Labour of course rolled over and pretended they were Tories as well.

An independent Scotland won't erect any monuments to Margaret Thatcher, she didn't do anything for us, though I'm not shocked Brit unionist AM2 is a fan.

To be honest this discussion should have happened after she died, it is in poor taste otherwise.

However if England wants a state funeral for her they can have it but the mourning will end at the border. Still at least she showed Scotland what the 'no community' Tories really were so perhaps for that and that alone we should be grateful. Her legacy is that there will never be a Conservative Government up here.

We will also have an opportunity to avoid being ruled by the Tories in the future in 2010. If we don't vote for it we will only have ourselves to blame when they rape our countries resources and put our children on the dole once again.
17

danbob,

23/07/2008 22:42:37
No 16# Your wrong. The state mourning will end in a line roughly stretching from the Severn to the Wash.
18

Dòmhnall,

smiling whilst thinking of the politcal tremours 30/07/2008 22:09:01
#16 John PM,Edinburgh, Scotland 23/07/2008 21:38:58

I agree with you whole heartedly. OUR oil money allowed the Tories to bury their heads in the sand.

I want to raise another issue, slightly off topic. It is not directed at yourself, but is more of a general observation. Why are you using the term "up here" in relation to this country (as opposed to England)? If you are from Scotland then why do you feel the need to class it as "up here" ? It is the vocabulary of the colonially mided (or the brainwashed); it subconsciously regards our country as needing to be compared with England.
This is the result of very subtle, clever and conniving cultural imperialism by London (England). Language such as "up here" and "down south" , terms I hear used everyday, further entrench the notion that we cannot ever stand on our own two feet. Please, do not use these phrases.

#17 danbob
I have no idea where the Wash is. I am assuming it is in England. I am aware of the Severn river. I trust that the Tories were not universally supported in England; this point is often exploited by English immigrants in this country, most of whom, in my experience, are unionists. They say that Scottish independence is needless because "there is no 'war' but a class 'war'". I will not dignify that phrase with comment.

 

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