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Kirk's still preaching politics 20 years after Thatcher row



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Published Date: 15 May 2008
SHE came dressed from head to toe in brightest blue – but Margaret Thatcher's visit to the Church of Scotland's General Assembly was like a red rag to a bull. In her "Sermon on The Mound" 20 years ago this month, the then Prime Minister tried to claim a Christian underpinning for the controversial policies of her government which had failed to win support north of the Border.
Before she even got to the lectern, ministers were queuing up to register their dissent from the invitation for her to speak.

Although she was heard politely, the event sparked a storm of protest. It was seen as a provocative move from a politicia
n who enjoyed little support in Scotland.

A year earlier she had won a third general election, yet again without a majority in Scotland. Moves were already under way to set up the Scottish Constitutional Convention to draw up detailed plans for devolution. And the poll tax was about to be introduced in Scotland a year ahead of the rest of the UK.

Yet here she was, using the Church's annual gathering as a platform to preach her ideology.

The Church of Scotland has a long history of involvement in social and political issues and was an outspoken critic of the Thatcher government on issues from the poll tax to privatisation and unemployment to Trident.

It has continued to speak out over the two decades since the Sermon on The Mound. This year's Assembly, which opened today, will be asked to oppose military intervention in Iran, call for a halt to the spread of gambling and press for an extra 10,000 affordable rented homes every year. But the high-profile church-state confrontations so common in the Eighties are far less frequent.

Has the demise of Thatcherism and the advent of the Scottish Parliament – long-supported by the Church of Scotland – led unintentionally to a loss of influence for the Kirk?

Before devolution, it was sometimes said the General Assembly was the nearest thing Scotland had to its own parliament. The gathering brought together people from every part of the country and they debated nuclear weapons, unemployment and foreign policy, as well as doctrine, buildings and ministers' pay.

Some have argued now there is a genuine parliament, the Church has become just one voice among many others.

Morag Mylne, who completes her spell as convener of the Kirk's church and society council at this year's Assembly, says the church is engaged with politicians of all parties at the Scottish Parliament and at Westminster, and has its own parliamentary officer at Holyrood.

"It's more of a day-to-day relationship," she says. "The profile may not be the same, but there is a continuing meaningful discussion."

She argues the Kirk continues to represent a lot of people despite membership falling below 500,000. "That's still a pretty sizeable proportion of Scotland and vastly bigger than any political party."

She says politicians are ready to listen to the Church on issues such as social care, drug rehabilitation and poverty because of its involvement on the ground. "The Church speaks from experience on these issues. That gives strength and credibility to its contribution politically and that is respected," she says.

The Rev Dr Norman Shanks, convener of the Kirk's church and nation committee, 1988-92, believes it was the particular nature of Thatcherism which prompted the constant stream of Kirk criticism at that time.

"Traditional One Nation Toryism is something the Church would have been much less critical of," he says. "But we had this confrontational, market ideology."

In her Sermon on The Mound, Mrs Thatcher sought to persuade the Kirk there was a theological justification for her emphasis on individualism and the creation of wealth.

She quoted St Paul saying: "If a man will not work he shall not eat." She told the assembled churchmen and women: "It is not the creation of wealth that is wrong but love of money for its own sake. The spiritual dimension comes in deciding what one does with the wealth."

She added: "Intervention by the state must never become so great that it effectively removes personal responsibility."

It has to be remembered she was never invited by the Church of Scotland to be at the Assembly. She attended as a guest of the Queen's representative, the Lord High Commissioner, after she let it be known she wanted to go.

There is a convention at the Assembly that VIP guests are invited to speak, so the Kirk had little choice but to let her deliver her "sermon".

However, the Moderator, Professor Jim Whyte, had the last laugh when, thanking her for the speech, he presented Mrs Thatcher with two books, both reports critical of her government's policies and one of which he described as "a Christian approach to the distribution of wealth".

Twenty years on, some have suggested the Sermon on The Mound contained little for the Church to be upset about and it could now have been delivered by a Labour Prime Minister.

But Morag Mylne disagrees. "That says more about the Labour Party than the church," she says.

"Anyone who thinks the Church would sit back and say Mrs Thatcher was right after all would be very much surprised.

"There is still a real sense of social justice that rejects the creed of materialism and self-advancement.

"Politics has changed a lot in the last 20 years, but it's a mistake to see the church as having somehow drifted along with that. The Church still stands for what it stood for then."





The full article contains 938 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 15 May 2008 8:30 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Nellie,

Liverpool 15/05/2008 09:53:10
It is a difficult line to tread. When human discomfort and suffering is caused by Government polcies, the Church will want to speak out as they will feel it their Christian duty to help relieve people of these things. But on the other hand, in so doing they alienate the Church from a section of the population who believe what is being done is actually for the common good. What's the answer?
2

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 15/05/2008 10:09:46
The 'Sermon on the Mound' will go down as a major milestone on the road to Independence. God Bless you Madam.

I become so emotional when thinking about it I never know whether to break into Flower of Scotland or Land of Hope and Glory, though I tend to move towards the former.
3

Boswall,

15/05/2008 12:17:15
Thatcher still has the measure of anyone that's come after her in any British political landscape.

A shame that we'll never have the opportunity to see a Thatcher in her prime taking on our latest halfwit First Misister.......would be great for Scotland and the UK to see Salmond being humiliated by the Iron Lady.
4

Nikostratos,

15/05/2008 12:39:24
At the end of the day and with regret Thacher won and is still the leading light in present day politics..........Including the snp........council tax freeze for the rich.........
5

Andrew D,

BNE 15/05/2008 13:20:32
Oh lordy... in #3 we have another Thatcher worshipper.

That old crone caused more damage to the UK and in particular Scotland than anyone before or since for the last 100 years.

Using an entire country as a guinea pig for an unpopular tax might be your idea of "great for Scotland" but it was and is anything but my idea of such a thing.
6

Keith 1,

Edinburgh 15/05/2008 13:48:26
We have Margaret Thatcher to thank for the wealth that we take for granted today. It's easy to forget the progress Lady T made when you look at the state of the UK when she came to power.

On the issue of an independant Scotland, it is a romatic dream which would be a nighmare for Scotland if it came true! And Alex Salmond would have the nerve to pick and choose the bits of the UK he wants to keep in Scotland such as HM The Queen as head of state!!! Look at what a comedy show the Scottish Asembly is. Bring on a vote on the issue and put it to bed for another generation.
7

Ham Shank,

15/05/2008 13:49:42
Andrew D, You could also say that if it wasn't for Thatcher curtailing the power of the unions, created by the useless Labour government in the 70's then we would still have a massive workshy, overpaid public sector draining our economy. (mostly based in Glasgow).
8

tomias,

Edinburgh 15/05/2008 13:56:00
I just might post next week after the GA,when I will be crouched up in the slopping gallery-the press office.
Aye an free coffee to/tae!
Keep an eye/een open for the " evangellikalls".
9

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 15/05/2008 14:12:43
7 Ham Shank
I was never a paricular fan of Thatcher and I would't be as strident as you in commenting but I do think that there has to be a much greater level of maturity in discussing her role. Many of the reforms carried out by her govt. had to be done - as you mentioned trade union reform was one. Many are now to young to remember how the economy of the country was hidebound by industrial action in the seventies - strikes called by a show of hands with intimidation of those who disagreed, violent secondary picketing, politically motivated "sympathy" strikes etc.

It is noticable that nobody (not even the SNP) advocate repealing the measures she introduced in this area. Similarly nobody advocates renationalising the telecommunications industry. (sorry perhaps the SSP do)

All too often she is simply demonised without any proper analysis.
10

Ham Shank,

15/05/2008 15:09:32
Ugly George,

I completely agree with you. I am no fan of Margaret Thatcher either. My post was more one of playing devils advocate and I wrote it because I too believe that further analysis is required when looking at her tenure and not the usual knee jerk reaction ie, she is the devil reincarnate..or the worst thing to happen to Britain in 100 years.
11

Xena - Warrior Princess,

15/05/2008 15:14:14
Was this the famous speech that she said if you don't work, you don't eat? Very christian that eh! Ham Shank you could also say if it wasn't for Thatcher we wouldn't have the massive workshy benefit idlers either.
12

Boy Wonder,

15/05/2008 15:28:54
Thatcher ... don't get me started!!!

The only good Tory is the one that's pushing up the daisies!
13

Ham Shank,

15/05/2008 15:37:11
11. I dont understand.

If anything, these workshy figures would have been reduced because of Thatcher, by my reckoning (feel free to explain yourself though and educate me). And anyway, that sounds pretty good to me. If you can work you should be, and if you dont you can expect to get the square root of fek all. Stop these benefit idlers scrounging off my tax.

As i said previously, disagreed with a lot of what she stood for but IMO in regard to this she was spot on.
14

Xena - Warrior Princess,

15/05/2008 15:45:09
Thatcher created the benefit idlers by causing widespread unemployment. The Buroo then advised these unfortunates to go the doctor to get incapacity benefit because the government wanted the unemployment figures to go down and being sick didn't count. Ever since then we have had a whole generation living like this. I agree with you that if you can work you should, but you have children being brought up by parents and grandparents who have never worked and seem to get by. IMO she created a much more selfish society (of I forgot there is no such thing).
15

Dunaskin,

Edinburgh 15/05/2008 16:01:28
Xena is spot-on. Thatcher may have had some sensible ideas about making British industry competitive, but her cynical manipulation of unemployment figures has created huge social problems. And she encouraged a nasty streak of unthinkingness and self-centredness in her beloved business classes. Look at those folk on the Apprentice - would you want to do business with them?
16

Philip Thompson,

Morningside 15/05/2008 16:08:45
The Labour Government left the economy in such a state following their time in power during the 70's that Mrs Thatcher had a tremendous job on her hands to limit the damage. She completely turned the economy around and made Great Britain a prosperous nation again rather than one where no money is earned for employee or employer because work-shy greedy employees think that they deserve so much money that the company cannot keep afloat. David Cameron will have a similar job on his hands when he comes to power, cleaning up the mess Gordon Brown has been storing up for the last decade. It'll be a tough and thankless job. The average Scottish voter fails to understand the basic concept of an economic cycle, let alone how the actions of today affect the finances of tomorrow. They are only capable of living in the moment which is why we have such high levels of personal debt.

Having said all that, I also think that we would do well to listen to the church, as we did in the past. If we followed the example of our ancestors then the levels of moral depravity seen as an acceptable way of life now wouldn't be the great problem that they are.

Mrs Thatcher will go down in history as a far better leader than Alex Salmond or Gordon Brown. The best leaders aren't always the most popular. To quote Peter Parker 'With great power comes great responsibility' and sometimes you need to be responsible for a good decision that's very unpopular.

I'm sure if duties on cigarettes and alcohol were completely scrapped at the next budget then that would boost the popularity of the Labour Party in Scotland. The very fact that the Scottish voter doesn't understand many of the implications of that is a very sad state of affairs.
17

Boswall,

15/05/2008 16:34:32
#5 Andrew D

Funny response that. I wouldn't classify myself as a Tharcher worshiper but I do look back on her premiership with a degree of affection.

What I find amusing about people that rant on about Community Charge tax you refer to is why it was an unfair tax (I presume you meant to use the word unfair in stead of unpopular as I challenge you to name a popular tax). A local tax where everyone pays the same sounds perfectly fair to me.

So what if Scotland was used as a test bed for national policy, that's exactly what the Scottish Parliament now does.
18

Merouane,

Edinburgh 15/05/2008 16:52:08
#17. I think the difference now, is that the Scottish Parliament implements policies agreed by the majority of MSPs. In the past, the UK government could implement policies based on the majority of UK MPs even if the majority of Scottish MPs were against.
19

Chaplin,

Edinburgh 15/05/2008 16:58:49
The level of debate above has returned my faith in the Scotsman forums.
Sensible reasoned debate about Mrs Thatchers legacy rather than the usual vitriotic diatribe from those who must of been on a different planet than the rest of us.
20

Nellie,

Liverpool 15/05/2008 17:11:25
Thatcher may have curtailed the unions but she went too far. And she compounded the problem by making new "home owners" who are now so tied up with the financial debt of mortgages, etc, that they daren't take strike action against unscrupulous employers anyway because they fear they may lose their homes. Yes, unscrupulous employers - there are a lot of them about.

And let us not forget what she did for "freedom of speech." She made sure Thames TV was shut down because they made a documentary, "Death on the Rock", that was deeply embarrassing to her Government.

But this issue has nothing to do with politics and the Kirk.
21

,

15/05/2008 20:38:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

Teofilio Cubillas,

15/05/2008 21:50:24
The Church of Scotland is far too cosy with the Labour Party in this country. They were quite happy to bleat about Thatcher but since Labour got in the poverty gap has widened, Trident's still here, thousands of Iraqis are dead and their silence is deafening. As for the Scottish Labour Party you only have to take a drive through Glasgow and Lanarkshire to see what 50 years of municipal socialism has done for that neck of the woods.
23

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 16/05/2008 07:24:56
*11 It was the speech where she said There is no such thing as society.

*17 I'll give you just one reason why it was unfair, although there are several others I could detail as well.

It was supposed to be an individual tax with everybody paying the same, with discounts if you were unable to pay. Yet I had to pay two lots. Why? - because my wife was not working. A non-working spouse did not get any discount. So clearly everybody did not have to pay the same if I had to pay twice. Given the Tories were supposed to be the party for families that was an absolute disgrace.

I stayed in a little old cottage with very limited services and paid £180 a year under the rates. After the Poll Tax came in my bill rose to nearly £500. All this on about £12,500 a year with two young children.

Quite simply - I'll never forgive the Tories regardless of how cuddly they become.
24

Proximaking,

Dundee 17/05/2008 11:51:59
Thatcher's problem was she was partial, she favoured the closed shops of the rich, the lawyers, the estate agents, the bankers, the insider traders etc over the closed shops of the poor, the miners, the railwaymen, the steelworkers etc. If Brown is to have a real sermon on the mount aside from that pathetic attempt on stage when he took over all those months ago he had beter start attacking the closed shops that do still exist, lawyers, estate agents, insider traders (not one prosecution in years), teachers who can't teach and can't be sacked, council employees who don't turn up for work but are still paid, police officers who refuse to go out on the beat alone, and all the others that we all know about. He should bring in a new tax regime where those who he wants you to emulate, ie those in the middle who pay most of the tax at present, are taxed least and those at the bottom too stupid orlazy to earn a decent wage to keep themselves and their families are taxed more and the rich are taxed at 90% in acceptance of the fact their wealth has far more to do with being in the right place at the right time than good judgement. If the poor don't like it they can retrain or push off and if the rich don't like it they can also push off. Anyone cheating on their tax by even one penny should have ALL of their assets taken from them unless it was done accidentally. Now if Gordon was to start spouting this sort of stuff he would get my vote and who knows once they think it through he may even get the Church's. We have to accept human nature as it is and chucking money at people simply doesn't work, we have to DEMAND they perform or ditch them, there can be no halfway house, the grown man knows the world he lives in and it is about time Gordon Brown faced up to the reality and worked with it instead of against it. llllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllll

 

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