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Islam akin to other faiths

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Published Date: 05 September 2008
Humza Yousaf of the Scottish-Islamic Foundation (Letters, 4 September) does not believe in freedom of expression as he wishes to exempt Islam from critical analysis by claiming that to do so may cause offence to sacred beliefs.
Millions of atheists, agnostics, sceptics, non-believers and followers of other gods simply do not accept the Islamic creation myths and, by implication, they cause offence to Muslims such as Mr Yousaf.

We are firmly of the view that Islam, like every other religion which has existed throughout human history, is not divine or sacred in origin, but is instead a man-made ideology.

We support the ideals of the 18th-century Scottish Enlightenment and the views of people such as David Hume and Adam Ferguson, who subjected religion to intense and critical scrutiny. If the Scottish-Islamic Foundation finds such scrutiny offensive to its sacred beliefs, we make no apology for this.

For the record, we have received not a single penny of taxpayers' money, unlike the Scottish-Islamic Foundation, which has received £400,000 from the SNP government. This is money which could have been used to help pay the fuel bills of poor Scots of all religions and none.

IAN STEWART
Convener, Atheist Scotland
Park Avenue
Dundee



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 04 September 2008 9:20 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Boy Wonder,

05/09/2008 07:02:22
I agree that money should NOT have gone to Scottish Islamic Foundation.

Religions and their satellites should recieve NO funding from ANY govt! They get it from their deluded worshippers.

I firmly object to my taxes going into a "Faith Pot" of any kind.

And the problem I have with an "Atheist Scotland" is that if we atheists band together, what is that? The Church of Atheism?? Geezabreak, eh?!


2

Unimpressed one,

05/09/2008 08:02:24
Think this letter might receive a number of objections from out muslim friends since it is obviously offensive to Islam.
3

Maximus,

Roberton 05/09/2008 09:14:52
On Atheism – here’s the rub. If religion is man made then why get so angry at it. If it is the product of a natural biochemical process then how does it differ to say Reason? Surely Reason too is a purely biochemical process? And if so, then what faith can atheists put in Reason?
4

thebob,

Dublaireshire 05/09/2008 09:23:26
Totally agree with regards to funding. I would go one step further and say that rather than encouraging Islam it should be discouraged. There are better ways to spend £400,000 than on ideas that should have died out in the middle ages.
5

A McBay,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 10:03:48
"And if so, then what faith can atheists put in Reason?"

Rather a lot, Maximus, and there is no "rub", as you put it. David Hume put it best when he said "a wise man proportions his belief to the evidence".

It is of course possible to have evidence and interpret it wrongly, but at least there is evidence that forms the basis for the reasoned debate as to its interpretation. Faith is different - it is blind belief without evidence, so it's all in the mind, a matter of subjective conjecture. Therefore reason as to belief is impossible - it's just your belief against mine.

If I say there are fairies at the bottom of my garden, and I can prove it because every time it rains, that's because the fairies are crying, then if I believe it, if I just have faith that this is so, then according to religion that is sufficient for "reason" to be served.

But not science.......

6

Gerry McGuigan,

dundee 05/09/2008 10:04:34
A quote from the Pakistan DAWN newspaper. "The Prophet (p.b.u.h.)was renowned for his great generosity which he was able to dispense from the huge bounty which he had gained from his conquests."C.F.Jesus Christ
7

Gerry McGuigan,

dundee 05/09/2008 10:06:52
Jesus Christ sai "Many false prohets will come after me,some of whom will work great wonders to deceive even the elect"
8

Miss H,

05/09/2008 10:07:48
I have read the letter printed yesterday and at no point was it stated that he wants to exempt Islam from critical analysis by claiming that to do so may cause offence to sacred beliefs.

It would be easier to debate these issues if people did not just make things up.
9

G,

dundy 05/09/2008 10:21:51
#7 do you think that the prophets before JC didn't say exactly the same thing?
Why doubt their word?
10

Maximus,

Roberton 05/09/2008 11:33:01
#5, “so it's all in the mind” – But there is the rub. The likes of Susan Blakemore and other hardened materialists do not believe in the ‘mind’. There is no sense of self, conscience, mind or soul. The process of Reason is biochemical. As such reason is also subjective conjecture.

If as I say religion and faith is a biochemical process then surely this is natural – like reason. So why get mad at religion and faith? Surely it’s like getting mad at my bladder for wanting to urinate – it’s natural.

As for evidence – what do you consider evidence? Can you provide evidence for matter being made up of atoms? Can you provide evidence of love? In the case of the former – I guess you probably could. In the case of the latter – I guess you probably couldn’t. Perhaps because there are somethings in this world that are more than the sum of their parts.

And as for fairies – well let’s take a look at memes shall we. Have you seen one?
11

A McBay,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 12:10:39
Even if reason is a process of subjective conjecture, it is still backed up by objective evidence that can be observed by others. Faith can't be, as there is no objective evidence that can be observed and rationalised.

It doesn't matter if someone called Blakemore doesn't believe in the mind. It doesn't matter if the process of reason is biochemical. The fact remains that reason can be backed up with evidence. Faith can't be - there is no evidence for the existence of a god. QED

"So why get mad at religion and faith? " Normally there is no reason to be mad at it, or even pay the slightest attention to it. But when it starts to dictate to the rest of us how we should live our lives, when it demands segregated sectarian schooling paid for by all but restricted for a chosen few, when it interferes in scientific progress to better the lives of humans and animals, when it indoctrinates children to believe in superstitous mumbo jumbo or brainwashes adults to strap bombs to themselves to blow up innocents - well, that's when people get "mad" at it.

12

G,

dundy 05/09/2008 12:27:31
#10 Believe what you want but just don't ask me or society as a whole to pay attention to your ideas or to dole out tax payers money to support it.
Wanting to believe in a God does seem to be part of the human condition and thinking may ulitmately be a biochemical process but because some people do not think that God's exist then it is not a essential part of a "natural" condition"
13

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh, Scotland 05/09/2008 13:00:06
Does atheism need a political organisation to attack the Scottish Government? I don't think so.

The initial points are valid and I agree with them but I find the fifth paragraph in which the organisation whinges that it is not receiving any money rather pathetic.

I am an atheist and I don't need an organisation to represent my views nor do I want such an organisation to attack either organised religion or the Scottish Government.

Mr Yousaf's letter indicated that his organisation was against the protests about the cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed. As a religious moderate, not an extremist his views should be encouraged.

If the Scottish Government believes his organisation deserves some financial help I don't feel particularly threatened by that decision.
14

Maximus,

Roberton 05/09/2008 13:11:38
#11 “Even if reason is a process of subjective conjecture, it is still backed up by objective evidence that can be observed by others. Faith can't be, as there is no objective evidence that can be observed and rationalised.” As you still seem to be struggling with the concept of evidence see http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/gods-existence.htm

“It doesn't matter if someone called Blakemore doesn't believe in the mind” I think it does she is up there with Dawkins, Myers and Provine on this … fairly influential in the realm of atheism, so if you don’t care about them then perhaps you should.

"So why get mad at religion and faith? " Normally there is no reason to be mad at it, or even pay the slightest attention to it. But when it starts to dictate to the rest of us how we should live our lives, when it demands segregated sectarian schooling paid for by all but restricted for a chosen few, when it interferes in scientific progress to better the lives of humans and animals, when it indoctrinates children to believe in superstitous mumbo jumbo or brainwashes adults to strap bombs to themselves to blow up innocents - well, that's when people get "mad" at it.

Can you honestly say faith has not had any great influence on the human condition? As for “But when it starts to dictate to the rest of us how we should live our lives” I suggest you read Humanae Vitae, written over 40 years ago, and take a look at what was predicted by following a contraceptive culture – not great reading, but it came true. I cannot say I would want any of them.

“indoctrinates children to believe in superstitous mumbo jumbo” – That is your opinion, but perhaps I could ask you to cover child care costs while I attend Mass?

“brainwashes adults to strap bombs to themselves to blow up innocents” – then apply some of that reason and ask yourself is that action true to their faith. I see many examples of secular actions which are prepared to blow people up .. hmmmm. See http://news.bbc.co
15

Maximus,

Roberton 05/09/2008 13:11:53
#12 “Believe what you want but just don't ask me or society as a whole to pay attention to your ideas or to dole out tax payers money to support it.” – The moment I am not asked to pay to support wars, abortion, contraception, etc.

Wanting to believe in a God does seem to be part of the human condition and thinking may ulitmately be a biochemical process but because some people do not think that God's exist then it is not a essential part of a "natural" condition" – Then why do so many people put their faith in drink, drugs, money and sex. There is a natural condition which leads people to seek happiness and fulfilment in something. BTW I don’t believe faith is a purely biochemical process, but the natural response to a divine presence.
16

Logie Almond,

05/09/2008 14:38:36
The key question which should be addressed to any Muslim representative or organisation is "Do you believe Muslims should be entitled to renounce their faith?" If the answer is negative they should not receive a penny of public funds.
17

Maximus,

Roberton 05/09/2008 15:11:43
Sorry last web site is http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/wtwtgod/3513709.stm (should appear in #15)
18

Joe McLaine,

05/09/2008 15:12:13

From parliamentary answers:

Fergus Ewing: The Scottish Islamic Foundation was constituted in January 2008 and formally launched in June 2008. Since January 2008 Cabinet Secretaries and ministers have met the Scottish Islamic Foundation on the following occasions:

On the 17th of January 2008, the Minister for Europe, External Affairs and Culture met:

Osama Saeed, Scottish Islamic Foundation.
Humza Yousaf, Scottish Islamic Foundation
Mohammed Sawalha, IslamExpo
Ismail Patel, IslamExpo
Anas Altikriti, IslamExpo
Officials from the Scottish Government.

Mohammed Sawalha is a HAMAS fundraiser and head of the Muslim Brotherhood Political committee. Patel and Altikriti are also senior figures in the MB/HAMAS. Osama and Humza are part of the Scottish contingent.

WTF are the SNP playing at? They have just given HAMAS half a million quid.
19

Iftikhar,

London 05/09/2008 16:16:59


Muslim youths are angry, frustrated and extremist because they have been mis-educated and de-educated by the British schooling. Muslim children are confused because they are being educated in a wrong place at a wrong time in state schools with non-Muslim monolingual teachers. They face lots of problems of growing up in two distinctive cultural traditions and value systems, which may come into conflict over issues such as the role of women in the society, and adherence to religious and cultural traditions. The conflicting demands made by home and schools on behaviour, loyalties and obligations can be a source of psychological conflict and tension in Muslim youngsters. There are also the issues of racial prejudice and discrimination to deal with, in education and employment. They have been victim of racism and bullying in all walks of life. According to DCSF, 56% of Pakistanis and 54% of Bangladeshi children has been victims of bullies. The first wave of Muslim migrants were happy to send their children to state schools, thinking their children would get a much better education. Than little by little, the overt and covert discrimination in the system turned them off. There are fifteen areas where Muslim parents find themselves offended by state schools.

The right to education in one’s own comfort zone is a fundamental and inalienable human right that should be available to all people irrespective of their ethnicity or religious background. Schools do not belong to state, they belong to parents. It is the parents’ choice to have faith schools for their children. Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. There is no place for a non-Muslim teacher or a child in a Muslim school. There are hundreds of state schools where Muslim children are in majority. In my opinion, all such schools may be designated as Muslim community schools. An ICM Poll of British Muslims show
20

Joe McLaine,

05/09/2008 16:44:33
Iftikhar:

I note with interest you refer to these children as Bangladeshi and Pakistani, not British. You seem to desire religious and racial separation, i.e. are in favour of apartheid and that non Muslim teachers should be barred from teaching Muslim children.

In what way will these children ever be British?

I am beginning to think you are actually a BNP supporter trying to stir up trouble; the only difference between your solution and theirs is location. You want the separation in the UK, they want it a bit further away.
21

Maximus,

Roberton 05/09/2008 19:57:45
No 20 ".. right to education in one’s own comfort zone is a fundamental and inalienable human right that should be available to all people irrespective of their ethnicity or religious background."

I'm sorry but that is the wrong starting point. Christianity starts with love and relationships - not rights. I appreciate Islam may have a different starting point, but the focus on rights may help to explain the anger and frustration you mention earlier.
22

arkletten,

06/09/2008 01:06:58
Iftikar:

'Schools do not belong to the state'? I'm afraid they do - if the state is paying for them!

You are free to home school or set up a Muslim school if you wish - at your own time and expense.

'There is no place for a non-Muslim teacher or a child in a Muslim school. '

Iftikar, shame on you! This is astonishing! This is racism worse than the BNP!
23

Countryman,

06/09/2008 07:29:38
Iftikhar
Do us a favour and take your Islamic rants and everything else which belongs to you and go back where you came from.
This country has no room for Islam.

24

Kip Hamilton,

Williamsburg USA 08/09/2008 05:32:26
Iftikhar- Come on. You are living in the west. By the very nature of that fact you MUST accomodate yourself to western culture, ideas and ways of doing things, not the other way around. You want to keep Muslims culturaly apart, obviously because you disdain non- Muslim culture and people. No one has the right to move to a different country and culture if they disdain that culture and the people who practice it. That goes for myself as well. If I moved to Pakistan and disdained Islam and Muslim culture, I should not stay, nor should I be allowed to stay if I was open about my disdain. I certainly would have no right to expect to be accomodated and given special rights. Would it ever be reasonable to expect state run schools in Pakistan to set up non-Muslim schools where Muslims were prohibited? In the past, the west did this kind of thing in their colonies and it was wrong. It is still wrong. If you are not a British citizen I suggest you move to one of the many Muslim countries where Islam is supreme, and all others are discriminated against. If you are a citizen, I guess we are stuck with you; but I might suggest that you follow in the footsteps of so many other Brits in the past, who, when truly unhappy with living in Britain immigrated elsewhere. I am sure you would be happier in a place that welcomed your medieval arrogance, and we would be happier without you. A win-win situation! Please think about it.
25

Niccolo,

Aberdeenshire 18/09/2008 15:19:27
Maximus,

"If as I say religion and faith is a biochemical process then surely this is natural, like reason. So why get mad at religion and faith? Surely it's like getting mad at my bladder for wanting to urinate - it's natural."

If *you* wish to take that approach then everything is natural, including people getting "mad at religion and faith". So to you: why try to criticise people for criticising religion when your own worldview insists that - "it's natural."

As for evidence: I can provide good hard evidence of buses and tube carriages being blown up in London on 7/7. Perhaps you want to tell the relatives of those who died that was "natural" too? I'm sure that will provide great comfort to them.

Your question about why people criticise religion was answered, and all you had to say in response to that is that religion has had "great influence" on the human condition. That's no response at all: your question has been answered.

The rest of your writing is filled with pseudo-profundity and I can only recommend that you do some serious reading (start with John Stuart Mill's "On Liberty") or if you don't have it in you to do that, then please be quiet and let the grown ups speak.

Niccolo

 

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