Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


GB united or an own goal that will split UK?

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 26 August 2008
IT IS by far the most popular sport on these shores, but when the world descends on London in four years' time, it is set to be baffled by the absence of a unified Great Britain football team. Unless, that is, Gordon Brown gets his way.

After the Prime Minister made clear his wish to see the four home nations rally together to compete as one side, the backlash to one of sport's thorniest issues began, as could be expected.

Having been an issue of contention for more than a deca
de, the row over whether the likes of Barry Ferguson and Wayne Rooney might line up in the same national colours has taken on added momentum since London was awarded the 2012 Olympic Games.

Yet for all the meetings behind closed doors and reassurances from football's governing bodies, there remains an apparently insurmountable resistance to the idea – the bookmaker William Hill is offering odds of 8/11 that there will not be a Team GB in 2012, and just even money that there will be.

With the Prime Minister expressing his desire to see a team coached by Sir Alex Ferguson, the Manchester United manager, the fall-out continued yesterday. Scotland manager George Burley reiterated the steadfast opposition of the Scottish Football Association (SFA) to any notion of a unified outfit. "It's been black and white from day one," said Burley, speaking at the opening of Falkirk's new football centre, which is based at Stirling University.

"The national team comes first and, at the moment, we are keen to keep our nationality intact. We have to have a national Scottish team and we can't put that in jeopardy, so there has been no change."

Asked for his take on the notion of a knockout competition among the home nations to determine a representative at the Games, he added: "That's all hypothetical. The problem with international games is getting dates for them, so it doesn't even come into the equation."

Eamonn Bannon, the former Hearts, Hibs and Dundee United player, told The Scotsman last night: "I don't think a British team is something that will happen. The football event in the Olympics has a much higher profile in other countries compared with Britain, and the football authorities in Scotland see the idea as the thin end of the wedge. If it were to go ahead, it would intimate the end of a separate Scottish team. What's more, if you had to pick a team tomorrow, you would be lucky to find any Scots in it."

Julie Fleeting, MBE, captain of Scotland's national women's team and a striker for the Women's English Premier League team, Arsenal, said: "First and foremost I'm Scottish and very proud to be Scottish.

"If having a British team means young girls will lose out on the opportunity of pulling on a Scottish jersey, then I'm not for it. It was a very, very proud moment for me and it would be devastating for girls not to get that chance. Looking at the numbers – a British team would have far more players to choose from and would cut out a lot of Scottish girls."

David Beckham, a leading player in the handover ceremony in Beijing, revealed his desire to see a British team and put forward his own name as that of coach. "We deserve to have a football Team GB at the Olympics, and I hope it gets sorted," he said.

But Sir Sean Connery, speaking at the Edinburgh International Book Festival, called for Scotland to become an independent nation at every event in future olympiads.

The main reason for opposition to the idea of Team GB on the part of Scotland, Wales and, to a lesser extent, Northern Ireland, is simple: self-preservation.

Though they may be members of the UK, the constituent nations enjoy special treatment in the wider international football community.

In 1946, Sir Stanley Rous, then the (English) Football Association secretary, knew that the Fédération Internationale de Football Association (Fifa), the game's governing body, was virtually bankrupt. Cunningly, he bartered proceeds of a 1947 Britain v Fifa game in exchange for a fixed British vice-presidency and maintenance of the four home nations.

That anomaly has continued to this day, and the home nations enjoy a power in the game that other nations have come to regard as disproportionate, considering their relative failure in major tournaments over the years.

Their position has already come under fire from some in Fifa, with Jack Warner, the controversial Trinidad and Tobago representative, branding the set-up an "anachronism". An Olympic team, it seems, would only fan the flames.

The SFA, in particular, has been vocally opposed to the concept ever since Tony Banks, the then sports minister, said there should be a British in team in 1999.

Sepp Blatter, the president of Fifa, has been inconsistent in his views on how a Team GB would impact on the autonomy of the home nations. Five years ago, he said a united team could be formed, with no harm to the separate associations. However, this spring, he appeared to perform a U-turn, suggesting that such a team "will put into question all the privileges that the British associations were given".

Gordon Smith, the chief executive of the SFA, has said his organisation's opposition is not based purely on the possible dissolution of the Scottish national side. Football at the Olympics, he argues, is not considered a major event compared with key European and international competitions.

That stance has been evident in the run-up to London 2012. Two years ago, when the British Olympic Association arranged an inaugural round-table discussion on the topic of a Great Britain team, Scotland and Wales's representatives did not even attend.

Should minds meet, 2012 would mark the first appearance of a British football team at the Olympics in more than five decades, its last foray coming in 1960 in Italy, when it was eliminated at the group stages.

The last time Britain competed as the one entity was in 1971, during the qualification round for the following year's Munich Games. The side faltered against a well-drilled collection of Bulgarians.

In 1974, the Football Association Council abolished the official distinction between professionals and amateurs. As the Olympics were then open to amateur sportsmen and women only, British Olympic football became a footnote of history. Whether it will be a part of the future remains to be seen.

POSSIBLE TEAMS?

GREAT BRITAIN 2008 (4-4-2)

CRAIG GORDON (SCOTLAND)

ALAN HUTTON (SCOTLAND)

JOHN TERRY (ENGLAND)

RIO FERDINAND (ENGLAND)

ASHLEY COLE (ENGLAND)

STEVEN DAVIS (N IRELAND)

FRANK LAMPARD (ENGLAND)

STEVEN GERRARD (ENGLAND)

OWEN HARGREAVES (ENGLAND)

WAYNE ROONEY (ENGLAND)

CRAIG BELLAMY (WALES)

GREAT BRITAIN 2012 (4-4-2)

CRAIG GORDON (SCOTLAND)

MICAH RICHARDS (ENGLAND)

JOHN TERRY (ENGLAND)

TOM HUDDLESTONE (ENGLAND)

GARETH BALE (WALES)

STEVEN DAVIS (N IRELAND)

AARON RAMSEY (WALES)

SCOTT BROWN (SCOTLAND)

OWEN HARGREAVES (ENGLAND)

WAYNE ROONEY (ENGLAND)

THEO WALCOTT (ENGLAND)







Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 26 August 2008 12:02 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: London Olympics 2012
 
1

Guga II,

Rockall 26/08/2008 00:45:55
Maggie Broon is still trying to sell Scotland down the river.

Vidkun Quisling was also a "son of the manse".

2

Darien,

Panama 26/08/2008 00:56:05
This is all wishful thinking on the part of Broon and the BOC huddies. Fitba is one thing Broon dare not go near. But then again, his real agenda is to make Scotland and Scottishness disappear, and to make us all Britishers, whatever that means. Wha's like us. Parcel o' rogues indeed. Vote him and his like into oblivion.
3

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 26/08/2008 00:57:00
#2 I hold no regard for Mr Brown but your comment is repetitive as well as infantile.
4

Mad Jock,

East Lothian 26/08/2008 01:01:50
Despite Gordon being a moron, he actually has very little say in the matter. Until FIFA get off their fat backsides and issue a statement that a UK Olympic football team will in no way jeopardise the status of the individual nations that make up the team, then perhaps a UK team has a chance of happening.
If the IRB is happy enough for a British Lions team to exist within the rugby world, while also accepting the individual nations that make up the Lions, then what, precisely, is the problem for FIFA? It's only going to happen every four years anyway.
5

democracy,

Scottish Borders 26/08/2008 01:31:09
Lets get this straight, once and for all, there will NEVER be a Team GB in olympic football. As much as the devout Unionists would wish it, it will never happen.
The Unionist political classes have been trying for years to get people to accept the UK as one country for their own self-serving ends.

The REAL truth is, it has never been one country, and NEVER will be, it was born by the then political elite
agreeing to a Union of Scotland and England WITHOUT any democratic mandate by the people, English or Scottish and thus the 'Union' has never had a proper mandate to even exist at all!
6

democracy,

Scottish Borders 26/08/2008 02:08:46
#1 Hugh V McLachlan,Elderslie says "No Scots would get into a British or UK side at present in any case. None of them is good enough".

Now, let us have a look at this statement.

It suggests that they are less effective than England and yet the last time Scotland played England and was at Wembley, they defeated them.

It is also well documented that Scotland had the toughest draw in the latest Euro.championship qualifications, with France and Italy in their section, they defeated France home AND away and run the world champions Italy close and were very unlucky not to qualify, but neither did England!

Now look at our record over the past 40 long years,
Never won the World Cup.
Never won the European Championship.

Now Englands record over the past 40 long years,
Never won the World Cup.
Never won the European Championship.

Although smaller nations like Greece and Denmark have won the Euro.Championship. So England are not so hot, are they?

I rest my case!!
7

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 26/08/2008 02:49:27
Trying to confuse the rugby Lions with what's at stake here for Scotland and what caniving Gordon Brown was attempting to do before he had his pants pulled down is cynical at best.
The Lions are not in any way, shape or form portrayed as a "national" team.
They are what the Americans call an "all star" side representing the elite players from the home "countries."
They put on "exhibition" matches or "friendlies" which are of no real consequence over and above southern hemisphere bragging rights.
So get over it.
What Broon is proposing and slimey Sepp Blatter appears to be orchestrating is the anialiation of Scottish football at the international level.
All part of a calculated process to force "Britishness" on the Scots people.
Fear the worst.
What's next? Banning tartan and bagpipes again.
8

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 26/08/2008 03:05:14
I see Owen Hargreaves name seemed to get on the GB Dream Team list.
As a Canadian Scot I consider Owen as an odorous individual who refused to play for his birth country. Not unlike Chris Hoy;s anti-Scots antics.
9

Royster,

26/08/2008 03:22:01
Come on you team GB!
10

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 26/08/2008 04:39:11
There is almost universally no support for this idea, never has been.

This is simply Brown politicising sport for his own narrow agenda.

It's almost like Brown has a malfunctioning political radar and does the exact opposite of what common sense dictates.

Bizzare and amusing at the same time.
11

Royster,

26/08/2008 04:40:50
Letting the home teams play each other with the winner representing the UK is quite a smart idea. Not bad for the Labour party... shows some imagination for a change.
12

Pilrig.,

Livingston 26/08/2008 05:33:20
Meetings behind closed doors, that says it all. Furtive is the key word.
The economy is moving into recession but Broon had bigger priorities such as the Mickey Mouse fitba comp in 2012.
13

Pilrig.,

Livingston 26/08/2008 05:37:56
14 - the Home International competition fell by the wayside long ago cos of A) fixture congestion and B) other than Scotland v England, few were excited by it - and the game v the Auld Enemy was degenerating into pre-arranged aggro by the casuals.
14

Vaward,

Perth 26/08/2008 06:48:00
No Team GB football team? Then it seems only fair that Glasgow and Cardiff shouldn't take part in the 2012 football tournament then.
15

steve 1511,

aberdeen 26/08/2008 06:52:16
once again comrade broon proves to the nation he is an eejit
16

Islandboy2,

Isle of Skye 26/08/2008 06:57:20
Never...Never....Never....Never.....As Mr Paisley would say!
17

Boy Wonder,

26/08/2008 07:08:37
We Scots are not alone in saying NO! Neither Wales nor Northern Ireland would agree to this ... cos their players wouldn't get into the team either!!!
18

spiderman,

Argyll 26/08/2008 07:20:48
The Olympic footie is primarily for under-23-aged players so we ain't likely to see the top players anyway. The predicted teams in the article are rubbish. The whole idea is nonsense. One of the features of the Olympics was the contrast between the calibre of the successful relatively unknown sportsmen and the overpaid twits that dominate sports news in the UK, eg footballers and tennis players. In my view, the Olympics should be simplified to exclude daft sports and nations such as Scotland, Wales etc should have their own teams, just like Jamaica, Trinidad and the former Soviet countries.
19

1745,

Edinburgh 26/08/2008 07:28:16
By 2012 Gordon Brown will be but a bad dream
off the political scene for ever!!
So no need to worry about a UK team.
20

common sense voice,

26/08/2008 07:42:32
i think is would be very interesting... swan song to Sir Alex's career.... still 4 years off so difficult to predict any team, Craig Gordon and Wayne Rooney would likely be starters I guess

it's supposed to be fun...
21

eric,

Lothian 26/08/2008 08:20:57
Nice try Gordon.But you wont be in office soon.
22

Pocket Dictionary,

26/08/2008 08:28:24
Broon's determined to lose the Glenrothes by-election then?
23

Black & White Triumph,

Greenhill Road...soon 26/08/2008 08:31:12
Simple answer is independence
24

Melly,

Cuckfield 26/08/2008 08:31:32
Well of course the world will be baffled Martyn. Why ? because 95% of the world has never heard of Scotland. To them England, GB and UK are the same thing. Have you ever travelled abroad ? Even down here my wife and I are seen as English in the grand scheme of things, often said straight to our faces, and not just by the chattering classes. Are we looking forward to be back in Scotland for good next week ? You bet !
25

Bob M,

Paisley 26/08/2008 08:33:13
Martyn,
9 of your team for 2012 will be over 23 at the time. Only the Welsh boys will be younger than 23.
3 overage players are the Olympic max limit.
26

scottish person,

paisley 26/08/2008 08:34:39
So beckham thinks its a great idea. But he is english. Who in this country wants to be associated with the knuckle dragging drongo's who follow engerland. The 2012 olympics are all about londestan and no other part of britain. Dontlet coe and co try to kid you.Scotland enjoy the best supporters on the planet dont let a mouse like broon spoil that. beckham wants to be coach! ha ha ha
27

,

26/08/2008 08:37:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
28

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 26/08/2008 08:37:54
There is no such thing as a Great Britain or United Kingdom Football Association.

The conniving Football Association of England and arrogant British Olympic Association under U.K. Government pressure will ensure that a GB football team takes to the field in the 2012 London Olympics.

However, it matters little if any Northern Irish, Scottish or Welsh players are included?

Eleven under-23 English footballers will most certainly represent Great Britain and viewers across the globe will be none the wiser!

After this precedent, and under intense pressure from many footballing nations in Africa and Asia, FIFA will once again look at the question of separate membership, and, in all probability, withdraw the Celtic Nations unique articles of association.

The only winners will be the Football Associatiobn of England!














29

yockel,

26/08/2008 09:08:12
Does he really think it is a good idea to come out with this when there is about to be an election in Fife. What an incompetent out of touch narcissist.
30

Blindscout,

Fife 26/08/2008 09:09:57
The Olympics were originally supposed to be for non-professional sports people and since the decision was taken to allow full time professionals to take part the writing is on the wall. It was brought about as many cou ntries including the UK, did not allow sportspeople to be sponsored. But nowadays, one can only reach the pinicle of any sport by almost full time training. I would prefer to see sports events with a world wide competition taken out of the OGs such as football and even the tennis, but if rugby, hockey and all other events can support a English/Scotish/Welsh/Irish teams events such as the Commomnwealth Games, what is the problem for a GB team for football.

Until Scotland and other GB countries get full independance then there should be no issue of a GB team. It is just the hi heid yins in the SFA and SPL that are raising objections as they see it as a threat to their jobs. Of course on a practical side, players chosen for a GB team, would be training together for at least 3 months prior to the OG and would not be available for Club games, and that would be the issue. If Scotland were independant, as a nation we would be nowhere in the winners tables, as Scotland do not have any world class training establishments at the moment. So our MSPs would have to be looking at providing these facilities. Even Chris Hoy lives and trains at Manchester.

31

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 26/08/2008 09:13:55
Watching those Unionists who want to retain a separate Scottish Football Association and team but struggling to square this circle in the context of the Union and Team GB is a wonder to behold.

For all Nationalists, there is no such dilemma.

Independence!
32

Animal82,

26/08/2008 09:15:30
I am a proud scot, but I can see whats going to happen here - a GB football team will exist at the next Olympics whether the scots, welsh or irish like it or not.
Might an argument be to allow the players to decide for themselves?
Anyway, no one really pays to much attention to the football at the Olympics.
Alternative is for all home unions to qualify and do well at the next Euro championships in 2012, then any issue by introducing a GB will be resolved.
On a seperate note, how Salmond thinks a Scotland team could compete across the board in the Olympics I will never know. Comparing Scotland to Jamaica is chalk and cheese. The day I see a Scottish equivalent of Usain Bolt, is the day you will see me pole vaulting at the Olympics in a kilt.
33

Tynietiger,

26/08/2008 09:16:18
Non football fans fail to appreciate the problem with Team GB. Apart from fact that the Olympic games tournament is third rate compared to World Cup and European Championships and English clubs will be very reluctant to let their young players (as it is an under 23 aged tournament) miss important club training sessions in 2012. Any assurances from FIFA to-day are worthless in future as it is a very political and sometimes corrupt organisation. The reason Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland are opposed is that it potentially means no more club participation in European competitions or international competitions.

We should not let Gordon Brown risk Scotland's footballing future in pursuit of his Britishness.
34

Bob M,

26/08/2008 09:34:59
#24 "Britonic is our ethnic nationality"

If you want to define national boundaries by ethnicity there would certainly be a helluva lot less countries around. Why not go the whole hog and call ourselves Ethiopian?
35

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 26/08/2008 09:49:32
#5 I think the comment from Guga is neither repetitive nor infantile. Without doubt, Brown seems prepared to damage Scotland's interests in his attempt to secure his position as PM of the UK.

If you want some examples:

- Diverting £150m Scottish lottery money from good causes to fund the London Olympics.
- Fiddling Barnett consequentials to short change Scotland
- Refusing to co-operate with Holyrood over an airgun ban

There are many, many more.

Quisling is a term that is appropriate in the case of Gordon Brown.
36

Darien,

Panama 26/08/2008 10:12:55
#5 and #40: The Q word was perhaps more appropriate for Dewar, McLeish and whatshisname from Arran/Malawi (plus FibDums) as they were definitely in charge of puppet governments, same as Quisling himself. This has become all too clear since Salmond took charge, and we can all see that his is anything but a puppet government. That is why we are having all this British Nationalist heavy hand push by Broon supported by many UK-biased institutions such as the BBC etc.
37

Climate change is a fraud,

26/08/2008 10:14:31
Only UKIP can save the UK.
38

Senga Jean,

26/08/2008 10:21:04
#42 Only UKIP WANTS to save the Uk. Begone you rogues!
39

Calum10,

26/08/2008 10:39:18
Experience has shown that what FIFA say and today is not what they will say and do in a year's time. The SFA, Scottish football clubs, Scottish managers and players and the Scottish fans all know that. The Scotland national team should not be sacrificed to FIFA for the likes of Gordon Brown.
40

DandyDinmont,

Edinburgh 26/08/2008 10:40:35
Connaughtboy and Darien are right. Time to call it as it is. The 'Great Broon' IS anti-Scottish, and Quisling is the appropriate term. He couldn't care if he wrecks International football for Scotland, he only cares for his own neck. Also time to resolve all these issues....get independant, stay independant.
41

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 26/08/2008 11:08:58
Notice how Vidkun Quisling met his end...
42

Lianachan,

Highlands 26/08/2008 11:57:22
I don't think Brown is interested in this for sporting reasons. The removal of Scotland's right to have it's own football team in FIFA will remove another aspect of Scottishness and national identity. I think it may well all be about the political preservation of the union.
43

Yeah1,

26/08/2008 12:27:16
#47

"I don't think Brown is interested in this for sporting reasons."

Of course he isn't - he is a politician - he is interested in this for political reasons just as Alex Salmond is also intersted in the idea of a Scottish Olympic team for political reasons.
44

Lianachan,

Highlands 26/08/2008 12:32:18
Indeed. But I can't understand how anybody - even a vigorous unionist - can possibly see the erosion of Scottish identity as a good thing. Don't most unionists want to be Scottish, and part of the UK?
45

Brad,

Glasgow 26/08/2008 12:32:51
#46, here was me thinking Scotland voted to be part of the UK. Not like 1940 Norway and Germany really. There are lots of nasty things to call Broon but Quisling isn't really wise. It reflects worse on you than him.
46

Rosscobhoy,

26/08/2008 12:39:09
The success of "Team GB" was a dream for all pro unionists, particularly those in the media. In light of this the calls for a GB football team at London 2012 will become almost unbearable. I'd rather die in a puddle of my own urine than support them to be honest. The story i'm looking forward to though, thats going to be completely missed out, is that the overspend on London will no doubt mushroom, and no one will complain because the media will bombard us with pictures of rowers and cyclists until we forget they just lost another few billion readies in some London slum. Oh joy.
47

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 26/08/2008 12:49:18
Fail to see the problem other than some VERY well paid executives at the various football associations might see some jeopardy in their fat salaries.

And does anyone really care what Sean Connery thinks? If he actually lived here rather than the bahamas maybe that might be the case.
48

Mikey,

26/08/2008 12:57:23
#50, Brad, where did you get the idea that Scotland voted to be part of the UK? Did a unionist tell you that?
49

WHISTLEBLOWER,

Pissaff 26/08/2008 13:36:38
#53 spot on!

By the way, does anyone know what the Chinese for "Britain" is?

Probably not. And you won't get it out of any dictionary, as it doesn't exist.

The Chinese have a word for England, and a word for Scotland. They just translate Britain as England. It is not even like German or French, which have Grand Bretagne and Grossbritannien - Chinese, along with Arabic, Japanese, Hindi, Urdu etc, has no word at all for the concept.

Still the choice exists in English, and most people choose Britain, right?

http://tinyurl.com/5h723c

"England's Chris Hoy shows his three Olympics gold medals won during cycling competition in Beijing 2008 Olympics, on August 19, 2008, in Beijing, China. Photo by Lucas"
50

WHISTLEBLOWER,

Pissaff 26/08/2008 13:38:07
"Trying to confuse the rugby Lions with what's at stake here for Scotland and what caniving Gordon Brown was attempting to do before he had his pants pulled down is cynical at best. The Lions are not in any way, shape or form portrayed as a "national" team."

Apart from the fact that the Lions should be abolished and replaced with a Six Nations team, they cover four nations, and more importantly two states.
51

WHISTLEBLOWER,

26/08/2008 13:38:55
"Fail to see the problem other than some VERY well paid executives at the various football associations might see some jeopardy in their fat salaries."

Oh, don't you worry about that. There will be bribes and incentives offered.
52

Darien,

Panama 26/08/2008 13:54:10
#48. "Of course he isn't - he is a politician - he is interested in this for political reasons just as Alex Salmond is also intersted in the idea of a Scottish Olympic team for political reasons."

Unlike Salmond, Broon is a desperate politician as well as a fundamentalist British Nationalist. That provides for an interesting cocktail.
53

Alba Abú,

Edinburgh 26/08/2008 14:00:47
Why bother with a GB football team when it is unlikely that there will be a GB government in the next couple of years from now.

Independence for Alba NOW!
54

Alba Abú,

26/08/2008 14:02:22
#56 Whistleblower.......Excellent post!
55

Climate change is a fraud,

26/08/2008 14:13:49
#59 Scots do accept UKIP. UKIP is a party of the people.

The other parties will tell you what they think you want to hear, then fail to deliver if it is contrary to ther own agendas.

UKIP is different. We tell you what you should be thinking, i.e. what your ancestors would have thought. Don't give up on your liberty without a fight. Wallace would have been ashamed to be a Scot if he knew that they are now more interested in X-factor and BB than their own country. Don't give me that SNP rubbish. The SNP are rabidly pro-EU. Imagine your 'independent' Scotland being ruled by Brussels! That's the way it is now. 80% of our laws are made by unelected eurocrats. The SNP are nothing but trash.
56

Yeah1,

26/08/2008 14:29:36
#61

"Independence for Alba NOW!"

Why do you call it Alba, why not Scotland? By using gaelic you risk alienating the 98.9% of Scots who don't understand that language.

Surely if you want more Scots opting for independence you should be trying to persuade them in a language that more than just a tiny minority of them understand?

I suppose you also want gaelic to be the national language do you? And to force people to learn it in school?

Surely if Scotland is to be an independent nation dealing with European and worldwide countries in business etc it would be far more useful to teach languages such as French, Spanish or Mandarin that a pointless, outdated one such as gaelic.
57

WHISTLEBLOWER,

26/08/2008 14:31:40
"Why do you call it Alba, why not Scotland? By using gaelic you risk alienating the 98.9% of Scots who don't understand that language."

Rubbish. There was a well supported campaign run by the Tartan Army to get "Alba" onto the national shirt. 99.9% of the campaigners were not Gaelic speakers.

"to force people to learn it in school?"

Like they're forced to do English, French, German, Spanish or even maths? Come to think of it, children are pretty much forced to do all the classes. They get punished if they don't turn up.
58

WHISTLEBLOWER,

26/08/2008 14:34:53
"it would be far more useful to teach languages such as French, Spanish or Mandarin that a pointless, outdated one such as gaelic."

They already teach French and Spanish. But the terrible standard of teaching in these two languages, makes me question exactly how they would manage Mandarin.

French and Spanish are pretty similar to English as grammar, syntax, the alphabet and vocabulary go, in comparison to most of the other languages in the world.

Mandarin on the other hand, uses completely different (or unrecognisable) words, thousands of characters, is tonal and spoken on the other side of the world. One needs THREE THOUSAND characters to understand a Chinese newspaper.

Considering that they can't teach closely related European languages, how do you propose that they teach a language which is completely different in almost every respect?
59

Yeah1,

26/08/2008 14:54:24
#65

"Rubbish. There was a well supported campaign run by the Tartan Army to get "Alba" onto the national shirt. 99.9% of the campaigners were not Gaelic speakers."

I was talking about using the gaelic language as a whole, not just the word Alba. 98.9% of Scots don't speak Gaelic.

"Like they're forced to do English, French, German, Spanish or even maths?"

Er...yes. Children are quite rightly forced to do English and maths - do you want a country where no one can count or speak the language?

There is a difference between forcing children to learn English or maths which are actually useful subjects and forcing them to learn a pointless, outdated and useless language such as gaelic.

"Considering that they can't teach closely related European languages, how do you propose that they teach a language which is completely different in almost every respect?"

I don't propose teaching Mandarin, I merely said it would be far more useful for children to learn Mandarin than gaelic, considering about 1 billion people worldwide speak Mandarin compared to about 100,000 who speak gaelic (and none who speak it as their 1st language).
60

WHISTLEBLOWER,

Pissaff 26/08/2008 15:01:27
Face it, they can't teach closely related languages, so how can they teach Mandarin well?

"I merely said it would be far more useful for children to learn Mandarin than gaelic, considering about 1 billion people worldwide speak Mandarin compared to about 100,000 who speak gaelic (and none who speak it as their 1st language)."

So why are you writing in English? That's got far fewer mother tongue speakers than Chinese.

Actually many Gaelic speakers have it as their first language still. My parents' bank manager, Mr MacKenzie, had English as a second language, and was fluent in both. And he wasn't any kind of cretin either.

"Children are quite rightly forced to do English and maths - do you want a country where no one can count or speak the language? "

Children are forced to go to school, and study. That's a given, so why are you complaining about it?
61

Yeah1,

26/08/2008 15:15:34
#68

"So why are you writing in English? That's got far fewer mother tongue speakers than Chinese."

er...because I don't speak Mandarin and this an English language website and very few other people on here would understand any other language...

"Children are forced to go to school, and study. That's a given, so why are you complaining about it?"

I'm not complaining about children being forced to go to school, did you actually read my post? I said it was quite right that they should be forced to learn English and Maths, what I am worried about is that if Scotland becomes independent extremist nats will force children to learn gaelic too.
62

Steafan,

Japan 26/08/2008 15:39:16
Em #69. What are you talking about? Children are already learning Gaelic and have been since the 1970s. The numbers are increasing all the time, and I've yet to hear of a child being "forced". Unlike adults such as yourself, children are quite open to new experiences, and to improving their IQ through being bilingual in two languages.

Did I miss something, and Scotland is already independent. Oh, would that that be true.
63

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 26/08/2008 15:43:07
#50 Brad, Glasgow

Not aware that Scotland voted to be part of the UK!
The parallel is that one has sold out his country and the other was Quisling.

EU referendum anyone? We didn't get to vote for that did we despite promises to the contrary. And anyone pretending to have Scottish roots ashamed to admit to it is beyond the pale really. Not that he really deserves the fate meted out to the other guy but maybe metaphorically. Brown is a GB loser in personal and political terms.
64

Reuldubh,

26/08/2008 16:01:20
Scotland never "voted" to become part of Great Britain, there was no national referendum and no universal suffrage anyway! Bought and sold for English gold says it only too eloquently

And no there was no referendum on EU membership either, the SNP should include the option of this in their manifesto (and I speak as a SNP/Independance supporter)

And there would be no Scots apart from perhaps craig Gordon in a team GB as they are c**p!

And I wished I'd been taught Gaelic at school instead of French, which I hated.
65

Yeah1,

26/08/2008 16:05:58
#70

"Em #69. What are you talking about? Children are already learning Gaelic and have been since the 1970s. The numbers are increasing all the time, and I've yet to hear of a child being "forced". Unlike adults such as yourself, children are quite open to new experiences, and to improving their IQ through being bilingual in two languages."

Read back through my posts, then you will understand what I'm talking about.

My point is that I am worried that if Scotland becomes independent the nationalists will force every child in Scotland to learn a pointless language like gaelic at the expense of a useful one such as French, Spanish or Mandarin.

As I previously stated of course children should be encouraged to learn 2 languages, my worry is that they will be forced to learn gaelic rather than having the choice of learning other far more useful and relevant modern languages.
66

Reuldubh,

26/08/2008 16:51:16
#73 Useful languages? Spanish and Mandarin I'll grant you as they are spoken by large numbers of people, but French? It's only spoken by the French and also understood in a few dubious African and Middle East countries!
67

Yeah1,

26/08/2008 17:02:50
#75

"Useful languages? Spanish and Mandarin I'll grant you as they are spoken by large numbers of people, but French? It's only spoken by the French and also understood in a few dubious African and Middle East countries!"

Well actually it the national language of 23 African countries including Cameroon, Senegal and Ivory Coast, as well as being a national language of Canada, Belgium, Switzerland and Luxembourg.

I would think the combined populations of those countries means that French is a national language to at least 200 million people, probably far more.

Infinitely more than the number of those who speak gaelic, which is 1.1% of the Scottish population and a few thousand in Nova Scotia.
68

WHISTLEBLOWER,

26/08/2008 17:16:33
"er...because I don't speak Mandarin and this an English language website and very few other people on here would understand any other language..."

Then you should learn. Better still, we should take a big tawse/stick and whack you for speaking English until you learn how to speak Mandarin. And then we can make sure that all your council tax forms etc are in Chinese only.

That's how the Scottish education system used to work in regard to Gaidhlig and Lowland Scots. Maybe it will work with Mandarin too. English is a minority language, Chinese is the majority language. We must make sure everyone speaks the same language.

"extremist nats will force children to learn gaelic too."

What about the huge number of Scots who weren't allowed to take it as an option to begin with? Some double standard. Our ancestors were forced into Standard English with the belt, and we never got the choice of studying Gaidhlig at school, even in the extra-mural. At least we'd offer a CHOICE.

You never offer a choice, whether it's to learn Gaidhlig, or whether it's about Scottish independence. At least nationalists do.

"My point is that I am worried that if Scotland becomes independent the nationalists will force every child in Scotland to learn a pointless language like gaelic at the expense of a useful one such as French, Spanish or Mandarin."

I suppose you'd like to drop the pointless music, art, or English literature stuff too. After all, these are "no use in the real world."

In a decent education system, we'd teach Gaidhlig AND one of these languages.

Yet you are incapable of telling me how Mandarin could be taught when they can't teach close relatives of English properly!!!

"Infinitely more than the number"

No, it's not "infinitely more." It would seem that you should have spent more time on maths at school - then you'd know how nonsensical this phrase is.
69

JT,

26/08/2008 17:35:53
what is everyone going on, there will be a football team representing GB, but it will be totally english or at best english based players. The welsh, northern irish fa as well as the sfa say they dont want it, so the olympic association will just to tell us tough and get lost, they will go ahead with or without the rest of the uk.
70

Ewan M,

26/08/2008 17:38:22
#11 "Not unlike Chris Hoy;s anti-Scots antics." Is this because he dared to talks sense against the constant Nat propaganda? How dare he but his nose into talking about sport facilities as a four time Olympic champion. Especially when dealing with that athlete of a man Alex Salmond.

Basic ecconomies of scale prevent us from being able to provide the levels of facilities. This is not a can't do attitude it's a realistic perspective and before you talk about Australia, New Zealand, Sweeden etc they spend infinitely more than Scotland on sports facilities, but of course that is because we surpressed against our will from the rest of the UK, right? I think the SNP have struggled to watch such a wonderfully successful British team working together. Imagine how ridicoulous that would be to do that in every other aspect of country to improve our lives, right?

71

Masterpiece,

26/08/2008 17:40:47
As someone who has learned to speak Gaelic recently, it is much easier to learn Gaelic than a lot of other languages, if you use some of the new teaching methodologies that are now available, rather than those that are used in schools.

Sadly few students have access to these methods as yet, but it is expected this will change over the next year.

What is so unexpected is that they do not follow the old worn out methods, thousands of students have had to experience and failed as a result.

Gaelic is much, much easier to learn than English if you get the right advice and courses, a lot more fun than expected plus an eye opener for any Scot who wishes to be truly Scottish.
72

Masterpiece,

26/08/2008 17:46:25
Of course, Alba should be on every international sports shirt be it football, rugby, athletics and even the Scottish cricket team.

By all means put the name Scotland on as well.
73

Yeah1,

26/08/2008 18:10:31
#77

"No, it's not "infinitely more." It would seem that you should have spent more time on maths at school"

Yes okay not infinitely more speakers of French as a first language than gaelic then, just 199,999,000 more.

"You never offer a choice, whether it's to learn Gaidhlig, or whether it's about Scottish independence."

Actually believe it or not I personally don't decide whether to offer a choice on gaelic or Scottish independence for that matter.
74

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 26/08/2008 18:12:36
What a sad lot these 'sporting' types are! I would solve the problem with one move - Take the ruddy ball away! If ever there was a misnomer, it is "united in sport"!

The only true sports are country sports. All the rest are merely competitions!
75

Yeah1,

26/08/2008 18:18:54
#83

"The only true sports are country sports."

Personally I would say humans competing against other humans in physical pursuits are far more sports-like than humans murdering defenceless animals.
76

WHISTLEBLOWER,

26/08/2008 18:39:31
"Yes okay not infinitely more speakers of French as a first language than gaelic then, just 199,999,000 more."

We got forced to do French. It would have been more useful to do Spanish.

You forgot to mention Arabic and Russian. Both of them are major languages too.

But I do suggest you desist using English, and switch to the majority language.

"Actually believe it or not I personally don't decide whether to offer a choice on gaelic or Scottish independence for that matter."

Not you personally, but you plural. Although if you did have the personal choice, you'd refuse it, because it's not democratic to let people choose, is it? That's what The British establishment's always said about the monarchy, Europe and many other things...

"they spend infinitely more than Scotland on sports facilities"

Are you related to Yeah1? Infinite means limitless/without end etc. I don't think that these countries spend "infinitely" more (that would be impossible, bigger than the American defence budget) just a hell of a lot more.

#81, have you looked at this->
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?cleague&1
77

,

26/08/2008 18:47:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
78

Yeah1,

26/08/2008 18:48:48
#85

"But I do suggest you desist using English, and switch to the majority language."

Okay I'll switch to the majority language when you switch to your beloved gaelic.

"Not you personally, but you plural. Although if you did have the personal choice, you'd refuse it, because it's not democratic to let people choose, is it? That's what The British establishment's always said about the monarchy, Europe and many other things."

Not sure why you assume I'm part of the 'British establishment' just because I'm opposed to the forced teaching of a pointless minority language in Scottish schools?

As I have said in previous posts I am perfectly happy for gaelic to be one of the possible languages that Scottish children can choose to learn, along with others like Spanish, French etc. What I am worried about is that if Scotland becomes independent gaelic will be compulsory and everyone will be forced to learn it, at the expense of other more useful languages.
79

Yeah1,

26/08/2008 18:54:24
#86

"You are obviously a person who was easily bullied by the big boys in the school yard and ever since, you have followed the big boys. French- English Haa Haa! the language of the big boys."

Er.....right. Very weird post...

Why does suggesting that children should learn French or English at school and should not be forced to learn gaelic mean that I was 'bullied' and have 'followed the big boys'? hmm....

Personally I would prefer the future generations in Scotland to be able to converse in languages that are more widely spoken than by a tiny minority of Scots, and virtually no one else in the world.

Surely if Scotland becomes independent it needs to be a worldly, outward-looking country which can do business with other countries worldwide and teaches its children the languages to be able to do this, rather than an insular, backward country that forces its children to learn a pointless, minority language?

Of course children should be entitled to choose to learn gaelic if they want, but they should not be FORCED to learn it.
80

Yeah1,

26/08/2008 18:56:53
#86

"Phoblacht na Alba go bragh! Saor Alba anois!"

Is there really any point in posting sentences in gaelic when only 1.1% of Scots will be able to understand what you are saying?

the vast majority of Scots will only understand the word Alba in that sentence. Why not speak English if you want your message to be expressed?
81

WHISTLEBLOWER,

Pissaff 26/08/2008 18:57:48
"Okay I'll switch to the majority language when you switch to your beloved gaelic."

Ceart, carson nach eil sibh a' cleachdadh Sionais?

(Now your turn with the Chinese.)

Nobody said that they would force Gaidhlig on children, only that they should be able to choose to do so, if they wanted to. And not instead of another language, but in addition to it.

To be outward looking, you must be confident in yourself. That means not bashing yourself in the head at every possible opportunity about the inferiority of Scotland and its culture(s). There's nothing more pathetic than someone continually apologising for their own culture.
82

WHISTLEBLOWER,

Pissaff 26/08/2008 18:58:49
#89 - I think you're hoisted by your own petard. He wasn't writing in Scottish Gaelic. Bad Irish, in fact.
83

Yeah1,

26/08/2008 19:13:16
#90

I meant speaking it continuously, not one sentence.

"Nobody said that they would force Gaidhlig on children, only that they should be able to choose to do so, if they wanted to."

Yes they should be able to choose. I am not saying anyone said they would force it to be learnt, I am saying that I am worried that it may be forced in the future if Scotland becomes independent - I'm sure some of the 'gaelic warriors' on these boards would love to force everyone in Scotland to learn it.

"That means not bashing yourself in the head at every possible opportunity about the inferiority of Scotland and its culture(s)"

Lets face it, gaelic isn't really part of modern day Scottish culture. More people in modern Scotland speak Urdu or Polish than gaelic for example.

Of course gaelic should have its rightful place in Scottish history and should be taught about in history classes, and in museums etc, but its not really a relevant modern language.
84

Pilrig.,

Livingston 26/08/2008 20:26:30
64 - yep Scottish culture, who needs it ?
85

Pilrig.,

Livingston 26/08/2008 20:27:59
92 - next we can do away with that terrible slang the indigenous Lowland Scots speak.
86

Pilrig.,

Livingston 26/08/2008 20:30:39
92 - what's Urdu or Polish for 'cringe' ?
87

Pilrig.,

Livingston 26/08/2008 20:35:57
74 - it's Broon who has dragged politics into it by agitating for a GB fitba XI.
In the realm of the beautiful sport the Olympics count for very little. So why bother, Gogs ?
88

Pilrig.,

Livingston 26/08/2008 20:51:59
97 ; answer - abolish international fitba
89

Pilrig.,

Livingston 26/08/2008 20:53:32
98 - if my auntie had b*ws, she'd be my uncle.
90

WHISTLEBLOWER,

Pissaff 26/08/2008 22:39:42
"Lets face it, gaelic isn't really part of modern day Scottish culture."

Yes it is. Unless your world stops at the end of a wine bar in Edinburgh or Glasgow.

"More people in modern Scotland speak Urdu or Polish than gaelic for example."

I'm interested in your figures for Polish. Care to give a proper source for this statement?
91

WHISTLEBLOWER,

Pissaff 26/08/2008 22:41:44
"No team GB because a bunch of people miss the point of sport and wish to corrupt it."

I think the Olympics are corrupt, but not because of the SNP.
92

Yeah1,

26/08/2008 23:08:28
#101

"Yes it is. Unless your world stops at the end of a wine bar in Edinburgh or Glasgow."

If gaelic is such an important part of modern day culture in Scotland why does only 1.1% of the population speak it?

Of course gaelic is an important part of Scottish history and it should be remembered as such, but to the vast majority of modern Scots it has no relevance or importance whatsoever in their every day lives.

I'm fed of these 'gaelic mafia' types trying to force gaelic on 'normal' Scots who have no interest in it - gaelic is a tiny minority language, spoken in a very small area of the country, and spoken by virtually no one as a first language. IT HAS NO IMPORTANCE OR RELEVANCE TO 98.9% OF THE SCOTTISH POPULATION.
93

kipstrange,

The Shotts 26/08/2008 23:22:22
Gordon is indeed a moron. The game is up Gordon. The empire is over.Get round it.Even the English dont want you.
94

,

26/08/2008 23:24:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
95

,

26/08/2008 23:33:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
96

DandyDinmont,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 10:11:23
Anyone interested in the 'flow' of these posts, that is, Broon is acting in a Anti-Scottish manner in regard to Scotland's International Football status. Never mind that we invented the game, and were the first truly national asscoiation of football, and invented International Football. Bad enough that 'Broon' doesn't know this or could acknowledge this, but as a Scot, representing a Scottish seat, he is advocating a policy that directly threatens our national interest. That to me seems to be politically speaking 'Quisling'. Is there nobody out there who cares that 'one of us' is working against us?
97

Steafan,

Japan 27/08/2008 17:26:21
104## It seems that you are a "worrier". You need to stop worrying. As it's much better to "gabh air do shocair". (Helps prolongue life-expectancy, and all that.)

You are claiming that you know the interests and habits, pastimes etc of 98.9% of the Scottish population?

For goodness sake, Gaelic is relevant to the whole of Scotland, whether that be directly or indirectly. A very large percentage of Scots (and Americans, Canadians, New Zealanders) are without question descended from people who spoke Gaelic as their first language.

Your question of relevance is relative, and unrelated to your supposed original point, which was that you are "worried that an independent government would force Gaelic on" our beloved Scottish children.


Now pray, as the present government of Scotland has full control of the school curriculum, why has it not already begun "forcing" the children of Scotland to learn one of our national languages? Education is a devolved power, so why would they be waiting for independence before "forcing" children to learn Gaelic? Surely they could do it now?

Are you trying to say that independence and Gaelic are connected and if so, in what way?

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.