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Faith in figures



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I enjoy the occasional dose of fire and brimstone from the Reverend David Robertson (Letters, 18 March), but he should be careful of bearing false witness by selectively quoting statistics.
In chapter seven of the 2005 Scottish Household Survey, tables for religious affiliation by age show that 33 per cent of Scots profess no religious belief, not the 19 per cent he quotes, while 46 per cent in the 16-24 age group and 48 per cent in the 25-34 age group profess no belief.

If we acted in the best interests of our children and removed enforced religious indoctrination from the school curriculum, there would undoubtedly be many more people in Scotland using reason, rationalism and common sense, rather than fear and superstition, to govern their lives.

The reverend might also reflect on the value of any set of religious beliefs that have to be force-fed into the minds of innocent children for them to endure.

ALISTAIR McBAY

National Secular Society

Atholl Crescent

Edinburgh



The full article contains 170 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 18 March 2008 8:34 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Gdgy,

dndy 19/03/2008 08:15:18
Come on! Alistair!!! we can't expect a grand wizard godbotherer like the rev. to understand logic or make reasoned arguments - he is right because his god says so...
2

StuartAD,

West Lothian 19/03/2008 08:28:19
Remind me who is plannng to change the law regarding the age of consent? The Government of the day is looking at dropping the age of consent to thirteen in both homosexual acts & hetrosexual acts. Not the Christian Church which believes in sex within the framework of marraige.
For more information follow the non-link
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/925/0055159.pdf
3

Maximus,

Roberton 19/03/2008 08:37:09
I look forward to the day when the National Secular Society and its allies, provide me with a purpose to my life. In the meantime I will stick to my Catholic faith.

Happy Easter everyone.
4

Infidel,

Dar ul harb 19/03/2008 08:47:28
"If we acted in the best interests of our children and removed enforced religious indoctrination from the school curriculum, there would undoubtedly be many more people in Scotland using reason, rationalism and common sense, rather than fear and superstition, to govern their lives" writes Alistair.
I would not be too sure about that. For many kids enforced prayers and worship is a huge turn off. It certainly helped me on my way out of faith, and has had a similar effect on my nephews. Contrast the USA where it is banned, and religion is all the rage.
5

Aiken Head,

19/03/2008 08:57:45
Why would anybody need to be provided with a purpose for their life? Too lazy, dim or conditioned to work it out for themselves? The National Secular Society is not in the business of providing crutches - that is part of the point - so you'd be waiting a long time. If blind adherence to claptrap is your only succour then that is a great pity.
6

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 19/03/2008 09:08:39
A bigger pity being the condemnattion of somebodies right to believe in whatever "claptrap" they so choose.

And yes, most people are too lazy or too dim to work it out for themselves. The churches recognised that a long time ago, hence why they introduced a framework for your life (the only catch being that you have to believe in whatever version of God they bother).

Without it, what we have is Gobshitery. Not very enlightened some people..........
7

Maximus,

Roberton 19/03/2008 09:10:25
#5, I have worked it out for myself thank you - and it is not blind, but Mr McBay implies we can do without a purpose based in faith. Please provide me with one.
8

A McBay,

Edinburgh 19/03/2008 09:12:40
2#

"Remind me who is plannng to change the law regarding the age of consent?"

StuartAD, why do you assume that it is 'secularists' doing this, or that secularists will agree with it? There are many religious people in the Scottish Government. I know many secularists who disagree with it.

Your comment carries the usual assumption from believers that everything good and right and proper emanates from belief in god, while everything bad, improper and wrong comes from unbelievers. Religion always likes to divide people up in to these two opposing camps - us and them, believer and infidel, saved and damned, jew and gentile, righteous and unrighteous. It is neither necessary nor helpful in creating a society that everyone can live in together.
9

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 19/03/2008 09:14:39
7

Easily. Man Made Global Warming. A tangible, science based faith that has no God (other than Mother Nature) and touches everybody.
10

Maximus,

Roberton 19/03/2008 09:24:41
#7 Dave, What? "Man made global warming" is my purpose? There must be more surely, since the earth will one day die so why bother with overcoming global warming?

Besides should my involvement in combatting Global Warming be a selfish one, or look toward other people?
11

richard l,

edinburgh 19/03/2008 09:27:03
#8

" the usual assumption from believers that everything good and right and proper emanates from belief in god, while everything bad, improper and wrong comes from unbelievers. Religion always likes to divide people up in to these two opposing camps."

Whereas the NSS gives balanced assessments of the influence of religions, always willing to acknowledge the benefits of religions and avoid generalisations, and promotes social harmony by engerndering such respect for other people's intelligently held opinions..........
12

Maximus,

Roberton 19/03/2008 09:44:40
Oh, and since we have Mr McBay with us can I propose a solution to the last sentence of his letter "The reverend might also reflect on the value of any set of religious beliefs that have to be force-fed into the minds of innocent children for them to endure."

Can I ask him to baby sit my three kids who would normally attend Sunday School and Mass. Could I also ask him to provide a set of ear mufflers and blinkers for my kids when my wife and I say grace at meal times.

Alternatively, could I ask him to fund a child minder service? To whom should I send the invoice?
13

Paul.G,

19/03/2008 09:46:26
I guess Rev David Robertson figures where's the harm of sneaking in another little lie especially when it's in the service of his church and his own career self-interests.

In reply to Maximus,
I suppose if you are too lazy to look for your own purpose in life the Catholic church might well provide a ready-made one-size-fits-all-Catholic's sort of purpose for you to slip into, but are you really sure it doesn't make your bum look fat?
14

Maximus,

Roberton 19/03/2008 09:51:25
#13. Thanks for that insight. As I said earlier I have found my purpose. What I would like to know is what alternative would the NSS propose in the absence of a faith. If their way of life is better, show me the reasons why I should switch, or is 'secualar evangelism' not compatible with their purpose?
15

A McBay,

Edinburgh 19/03/2008 09:51:38
11#

"respect for other people's intelligently held opinions"

Richard L, I am sure you would agree that it should be a fundamental principle of any system of thought, belief or opinion that respect has to be earned. I respect the individual's right to believe in whatever he likes, be it deities, Flying Spaghetti Monsters or flat earthism, but that does not mean I must automatically respect what he believes. If you demand that I must respect your beliefs whatever they are, you are effectively denying me the right to make a value judgment about them - possibly because you fear they will not stand up to a rigorous scrutiny?

David Cameron said recently:

"For too long we've caved in to more extreme elements by hiding under the cloak of cultural sensitivity. For too long we've given in to the loudest voices from each community, without listening to what the majority want. And for too long, we've come to ignore differences — even if they fly in the face of human rights, notions of equality and child protection — with a hapless shrug of the shoulders, saying, 'It's their culture isn't it? Let them do what they want'."

It is arguable that that is also what happens when faced with demands to give "other people's intelligently held opinions" automatic respect, whether those opinions are religious, economic, political or whatever.
16

Maximus,

Roberton 19/03/2008 10:01:49
#15, Mr McBay, my belief isn't based on a principle that respect must be earned. I respect all things, but by "their actions I will know them".

And I do not fear that they will not stand up to rigourous scrutiny.
17

A McBay,

Edinburgh 19/03/2008 10:01:53
14#

"What I would like to know is what alternative would the NSS propose in the absence of a faith."

Try this, Maximus - my personal view, not necessarily that of the NSS:

“The time to be happy is now, the place to be happy is here and the way to be happy is to make others so” – Robert Green Ingersoll, 1833 - 1899

You may not agree, but that has always struck me as much more challenging and motivational than belief in an afterlife. 'Chacun a son gout' (how do you get accents in Word 2007??)
18

Infidel,

Dar ul harb 19/03/2008 10:14:29
StuartAD #2 is scaremongering. No one is trying to reduce the age of consent to 13, he has misread the document he refers to. See my post #15 under "Secular fundamentalism" (this page).
19

Maximus,

Roberton 19/03/2008 10:18:51
#17, How do you get accents is Word 2007 - try Insert > Symbol ... Now would that be an example of a Catholic helping a member of the NSS? But hey, get you I still have 2002! (I'm laughing)

I agree with the quote, but I guess where I am coming from is that it is bound by time. If, as most non-religous people beleive, that the Earth just came to be and will end in a similar way, that makes my life an accident. It makes all our lives an accident, and therefore what is it's purpose?

I believe in a purpose that is eternal, not just one that might survive in the heritage I pass onto my children and so on.

Your quote (and many others like it) is true, but I don't think it is the end. I know that in so many ways we have a lot to learn from each other. From the example you provide I also know that what we "believe" is not so different. But because I also believe my reward will be in Heaven, I cannot help but think I would rather live for what God offers me, than what the NSS offer. I also live in the hope that I will see you in Heaven one day.
20

Paul.G,

19/03/2008 10:57:44
In reply to 19 Maximus:
Your comment reminds me of an example Sam Harris gives in one of his books...about someone who says he believes there is a diamond the size of a refrigerator buried in his back yard, asked why he believes this he replies that it's because it gives his life meaning, and he wouldn't want to live in a world where there was not a diamond the size of a refrigerator buried in his back yard.
21

Paul.G,

19/03/2008 11:13:17
For Maximus (From a Sam Harris interview):
Q: What is your response to people who like science, who agree with it, but who say "It's not enough, it doesn't satisfy me, I need more?"

With religious moderates, you have people talking about just wanting meaning in their lives, which I argue is a total non-sequitur when it comes down to justifying your belief in God.

If I told you that I thought there was a diamond the size of a refrigerator buried in my backyard, and you asked me, why do you think that? I say, this belief gives my life meaning, or my family draws a lot of joy from this belief, and we dig for this diamond every Sunday and we have this gigantic pit in our lawn. I would start to sound like a lunatic to you. You can't believe there really is a diamond in your backyard because it gives your life meaning. If that's possible, that's self-deception that nobody wants.

Q: What if people prefer self-deception to despair and chaos?

I would argue that is really not the alternative.
22

Maximus,

Roberton 19/03/2008 11:49:54
#20 and #21. Sam Harris’s analogy to the science / religion debate does have some striking similarities to what faith is like, but it falls short in a few areas. It is similar in the sense that yes I believe my faith is a treasure as beautiful as any jewel, yes I believe I have to search for it, and like a diamond it has many facets.

However, I don’t search for it every Sunday, but every second. But the biggest reason why I believe there is a diamond is because there have been many people in the past and present who have found that diamond and what is more they have showed it for all to see, and as such it cannot be a form of deception.

If anyone attempts to prove that there is a God by reason alone, then the proof fails without faith. Whilst faith and reason are not incompatible – reason contributes to faith, and faith contributes to reason -I believe faith offers a perspective on reason which allows us to see what is good for all is better than what is good for a few. The former is 'real reason'. The latter is a type of 'half reason' which will lead to despair and chaos.
23

A McBay,

Edinburgh 19/03/2008 11:53:49
Thanks for the Word tip Maximus - see, there is hope and enlightenment for both of us!

BTW I don't like the latest version of Word, but it came with the new laptop when the old one expired. The menu structure is all new and I just can't get used to it.
24

Maximus,

Roberton 19/03/2008 12:03:18
#23, Just thought of something else to laugh about ... In the beginning was the Word.
25

Paul.G,

19/03/2008 15:50:49
I just wanted to make clear to Maximus that the aim of secularism really is not to disprove, destroy or remove people's beliefs, what secularism aims to remove is religious privilege from the public sphere, and it is just as feasible for a theist as it is for an agnostic, an atheist or an anti-theist to support secularism, indeed many theists are secularists.

When you identify yourself as a Catholic, a Muslim or a Jew you have morally identified with a subset of humanity rather than with humanity as a whole. so I can't accept it when you say:

(Quote 19 Maximus: "I believe faith offers a perspective on reason which allows us to see what is good for all is better than what is good for a few." unquote)

In fact to me it appears quite the opposite..



26

James,,

19/03/2008 20:02:49
#25,

"When you identify yourself as a Catholic, a Muslim or a Jew you have morally identified with a subset of humanity rather than with humanity as a whole."

Rubbish. As a Catholic, I believe that all humanity is created in God's image and no-one is superior to anyone else, nor deserving of preferential treatment on account of their religious beliefs.
27

Gdgy,

dundy 19/03/2008 21:13:00
I find it hilarious that someone like Maximus who posts on a online message board says that he has a purpose in life...and that it has been given by god......of course this tars me with the same brush..!
If god exists he has a great sense of humour.....

BTW I have a purpose in life and god has nothing to do with it...its called existing and replicating....
also -do all you godbotherers think you'll get our own heaven or will it be segregated like major football games....:).>>>>>
28

James,,

19/03/2008 21:28:36
#27,

No need to segregate it - they only let Celtic supporters in!
29

Paul.G,

19/03/2008 23:29:58
In reply to 26 James:
To me you sound quite a lot like a theist who supports secularism when you say:
"As a Catholic, I believe that all humanity is created in God's image and no-one is superior to anyone else, nor deserving of preferential treatment on account of their religious beliefs."
...and one can only hope you mean what you say but
if you think you're on the track to heaven because you worship the right God while others won't be going to heaven because they don't worship the same God as you or perhaps do not worship a God at all, then all that you said about your belief in no-one being superior was a bit of a fib ... wasn't it?
30

James,,

20/03/2008 08:22:16
#29,


No it was not "a bit of a fib" thanks for asking.

If I get to Heaven, it will be through the Grace of God alone.

Everyone is entitled to make their own choice over which god (if any) they wish to worship. It confers no superiority on anyone.


Secularists are often a bit confused about what they want. If secularists want an end to Established churches, I have no problem with that at all. If secularists want an end to the presence of Anglican bishops in the House of Lords, I have no problem with that either.

If secularists want religious groups to have no right to attempt to influence public policy like everyone else, then I have a big problem with that.


 

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