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Clouding history to muddy waters of independence debate



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Published Date: 19 January 2008
THE question of Scottish independence raises big questions. What happens to the nuclear weapons? How much of the oil does Scotland get? What happens to the national debt and, as important, assets: things like the contents of museums and embassies around the world? Can Berwick Rangers continue to play in Scottish football?
An even more fundamental question is: what is the character of the UK? What is the nature of the space and place, and where does power lie? Such questions have a direct say on how any break-up would proceed.

If Scotland is to become independent w
hat does the rest become? Does it become the UK minus Scotland – a Rest of the UK? Or does it become something else, new and unnamed? The Greater England/Lesser UK would, in the eyes of some, be the successor state to the UK – with the legal rights to continuity of membership of bodies such as the UN Security Council, the G7, EU and NATO and responsibility for the 13,000 plus treaties to which the UK is signatory.

If the rump becomes the successor state– the Rest of the UK – it will follow the example of Russia after the Soviet Union fell apart. It did so influenced by geopolitical realities such as the size of Russia in the Soviet Union, international opinion and how to deal with the issue of nuclear weapons. In such a position, only one new state is created: the Rest of the UK continues its membership of the UN Security Council, G7 and other bodies, and the whole post-war great power illusion can continue with barely a hiccup. Scotland, meanwhile, is cast into the cold, albeit briefly.

However, this view is based on the arguable position that the Treaty of Union is just another piece of parliamentary legislation, rather than being as close as the UK can get to a kind of fundamental law. The Constitution Unit's comprehensive study of the practicalities of Scottish independence argues that Scotland's position post-1707 was the same as Ireland post-1801, and that Scottish independence would have the same effect in the UK as Irish independence did in 1922. This is an astonishingly inaccurate reading of history. Scotland created a union with England in 1707, whereas Ireland was conquered. One was a marriage of equals, the other a relationship of inequality and abuse.

An equally valid perspective states that the emergence of an independent Scotland would see the creation of two new states. Chris Bowlby in a recent BBC programme said that after a break-up "what would emerge would not only be a new Scotland but also a new remainder of the UK, in search of a name and a new sense of coherence."

This would take England off into Billy Bragg land, searching for a new identity and purpose. From this perspective, Scotland was one of the basic building blocks of the United Kingdom. Without Scotland, there is no "Great Britain" and therefore no "UK".

The nature of any future break-up comes down to how you understand the character of the UK historically and the consequences this has today. If you see the Act of Union as just another piece of parliamentary legislation which continues the process of Greater England, Scotland leaving the union does not alter the glorious tradition of continuity that is England/UK. However, if you view the Treaty of Union as being as close to fundamental law as the UK can manage, Scottish independence leads inexorably to the end of the UK.

The language between Act of Union and Treaty of Union is pivotal here. Talk of an "Act" reduces it to parliamentary legislation and prioritises the English Parliament's enactment of 1707, thus, continuing English law and practice. Talk of a "Treaty" emphasises that this was the creation of two consenting states and that 1707 was the decision of two governments.

Both of these perspectives cannot be right, but the UK has from its outset contained two contradictory positions.

One has seen the UK as Greater England, the other viewing it as a union state; one stressing parliamentary sovereignty, the other popular sovereignty.

Which will prevail in any break-up process will be more about wider geo-political realities, power and status, than the finer points of legal interpretation. It seems clear that whatever the legal position Greater England/Lesser UK will use all of its influence and status in the world of realpolitik to position itself as the successor state to the UK. It is possible that the "rump" would try to bring in the US government with its concerns for "stability". The shrunken Westminster political elite post-independence would try as much as they could to keep the whole undemocratic show on the road and prevent the democratisation of England.

The UK, for all its evocation of the past and tradition, barely knows its own history. The UK is not even sure how old it is, with politicians forever talking about 1,000 years of British history. Yet, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland came into being in 1922 and only took its current configuration with the independence of the Republic of Ireland in 1948, 60 years ago. We are truly "a young country".

We need to think about these things first before they might happen. It is revealing that the British state has undertaken no substantial thinking or analysis of the consequences of Scottish independence and the potential break-up of the union. To take one specific area, the British armed forces at the most senior level have not undertaken any scenario planning about what could happen to Britain's nuclear weapons situated in the Clyde. This is because Britain's top brass sees it as just too sensitive politically.

A state that does not know its own history and which is unable to think about the future is one that is based on a shaky set of foundations. We need to begin to think honestly and calmly about the potential choices and conflicts ahead, because they could shape so much of our lives from our mortgages and interest rates to the levels of our pensions, and who we threaten with weapons of mass destruction.

So far the British political classes have decided to hide their heads in the sand.

• Gerry Hassan is editor of After Blair: Politics after the New Labour Decade and was head of the Demos Scotland 2020 and Glasgow 2020 programmes.



The full article contains 1086 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 18 January 2008 8:34 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

The Strategist,

19/01/2008 01:44:40
"UK Light" might be an appropriate title.
2

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 19/01/2008 02:34:42
I do not think that the "rest of the UK" will be overly concerned with what it is called but it would certainly not be a "rump" which is defined as "a legislature having only a small part of its original membership and therefore being unrepresentative or lacking in authority".
3

Toque,

England 19/01/2008 03:47:35
How about if Scotland ends the Union with England but keeps Northern Ireland and Wales as alimony (you can sell them back when you go bankrupt again).

You lot can be called Britain, and England will be England.

And you can keep the Union Flag as a reminder.

Can't say fairer than that ;-)
4

English Bob,

England 19/01/2008 09:06:31
I see independence for the other home nations and a unified Ireland.

Bring it on.
5

frank mcbride,

lusitania 19/01/2008 10:20:12
#5, AM2.

A more recent poll than yours AM2: Iowa Caucuses 2008

Clinton - 39%
Obama - 30%

Actual result (due, mainly, to conversation and conversion):

Obama - 39%
Clinton - 32%

Your paricular reliance on opinion poll evidence, even more than Independence supporters, leaves you in a rather tenuous position, don't you think?

Anyway, it is good to have your input, as it is, imo, a possitive for the Independence movement. Your overbearing negativity is easily perceived as an extention of NuLab's scaremongering.
6

Goel,

Scotland 19/01/2008 12:14:28
An independent Scotland would indeed mean the end of the United Kingdom. All of the remaining parts were taken through force of arms by England.

I am not sure why it is useful to have Hassan point out some fairly obvious points here, but I suppose it is true that it is at least time to widen the discussion over the details of separation.

It isn't just the issue of siting nuclear weapons and the contents of embassies around the world - what about the actual embassy buildings themselves? What about the UK's remaining imperial possessions abroad? How are we going to split those? If the Union was a treaty of equals, why imagine that England would become the successor state at the EU, UN, etc?

Hassan isn't quite managing to even ask the right questions here.

G.
7

Davie08,

a basement at Edinburgh uni 19/01/2008 12:41:23
Remainder Uk would be Englan Wales and Northern Ireland Ewanistan?
8

Border Scot,

19/01/2008 12:50:12
A fascinating article. Interestingly, SNP strategy is based upon negotiating the terms of independence with a rump UK, what it terms "Westminster". It used to say on the SNP website that these negotiations would take around six months - I am not sure if that claim is still there, maybe someone can tell us.

However, if the rump UK ceases to exist following Scottish independence - and I think that there is a very strong case for believing that it will - the whole process and dynamics of independence change. After all, what mandate would "Westminster" have to enter into negotiations from the peoples of independent England, Wales and a united Ireland? The answer, of course, is absolutely none. Which, in turn, means that the governments of these new countries would in no way be bound by any deal agreed between "Westminster" and the Scottish government.
9

Border Scot,

19/01/2008 12:53:20
#6 - You are right, opinion polls are always a poor substitute for real elections. And in every national election ever held in Scotland parties supporting the Union have always won a majority of the votes cast, usually by a very significant margin.
10

d.j.,

19/01/2008 16:13:10
I have no doubt whatsoever that Scotland can survive economically on here own. What I do question is that Scotland is different from the rest of Britain, linguistically and culturally except in minor ways.

Scottish people are so similar to the English people even to the extent that what is seen as the Scots language is quite simply an extension off the dialects found in Yorkshire and Northumberland (Geordie). Indeed each of the English dialects have substantial dictionaries dedicated to them though no one would say they constituted a seperate language.

Culturally; again there is very little difference between Scotland and England and the English language binds everyone together into one family and why not, that is what a national language like English is supposed to do.
11

Home Rule for England,

England 19/01/2008 16:29:43
"The shrunken Westminster political elite post-independence would try as much as they could to keep the whole undemocratic show on the road and prevent the democratisation of England"

Ending the Union with Scotland will be a start. Then all we English will need to do is declare independence from Wales and N.Ireland. England can then elect her own government and the days of the Unionist politician will be something to read about in history books
12

subrosa,

19/01/2008 16:33:40
# 11 I disagree with you. There are many cultural differences between the Scots and English. This I have discovered during the substantial number of years I have lived with my English partner. Yes perhaps they are minor individually but as a whole they are important to both of us. In fact nowadays my partner prefers to call himself an 'adopted Scot' as he's ashamed at the constant press allegations that England subsidises Scotland.

We as a country need to get back to taking responsibility for ourselves. Why is that not acceptable to some of the UK? My only answer is that we must be quite an asset.
13

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver 19/01/2008 16:34:26
An interesting article Gerry... but to say that there was a great difference between Englands subjugation of Ireland as opposed to Scotland is quite naive. Both of the smaller countries were the constant military targets for centuries, of Englands superior strength and colonial mentality. Ireland even suffered more, having a large part of it's territory permanently removed by means of expulsion then colonisation policies, as the 'Elephant' negotiated with the 'Mouse'

Scotland was conquered by virtue of the the Act of Union which did not have the consent of the the general population except for the signatures of a handful of well rewarded quislings, while the English army waited poised and ready at the border, if this device did not work!

And as for your question 'How much of the oil does Scotland get'?.. well all of it of course!... that lies within Scottish waters as defined by international convention and law.
14

Saul Tyre,

Germany 19/01/2008 16:55:29
If Scots and English are so similar, why after 300 years of Union have the words 'Britain' and 'British' failed so miserably to become popular usage? Especially in England.
15

A voice of reason,

19/01/2008 17:28:35
15#
They most certainly are. Google either word. Britain is closely spun together and will continue to be so whatever happens.

BTW there is probably a need for devolution "mark 2". Beyond that such an event as symbolic independence would realy just mean giving up influence, destroying a great team of world importance and causing gross harm and upset irrevocably and for no payback.

The world would very much notice the break-up of the UK and, whatever our very numerous faults and disagreements, evil & brutal regimes/organisations the world over would smile as one important opponent simply dissapears. No future entity would fully replace the one that went before.

The peoples of the British isles, call them whatever you like to because they will always be a mixture of identities, are much much better than that. The article is simply hypothetical.
16

d.j.,

19/01/2008 18:02:27
15
The English in England don't need to use the word Britain because it is one and the same for them.

Little or no difference exists between the two.
17

Yeahbutnobut,

Aberdeen 19/01/2008 19:12:44
"If Scotland is to become independent what does the rest become?"

To be honest I don't care, unless the way the remains of the UK defines itself in terms of its identity has a detrimental impact on the newly independent Scotland.

"It is revealing that the British state has undertaken no substantial thinking or analysis of the consequences of Scottish independence and the potential break-up of the union."

That's because in the Greater England mindset of most of Britain's politicians Scotland leaving would not be the fundamental breaking of a multi-national state but the secession of a northern region of England. The idea that Scotland would actually come to the point of leaving the Union was about as realistic to them as Yorkshire voting to leave England, therefore it has never been considered.

That's also why the history of the UK is not well known. It is simply assumed to be the history of England. That's where all this 1000 year stuff comes from.
18

moiaussi,

19/01/2008 19:35:26
Historically, Scotland and England are completely different nations culturally, it is depressing to read the posts above saying we're pretty much the same as it proves the cultural genocide policies of the Anglo-British state have succeeded.
19

moiaussi,

19/01/2008 19:38:57
BTW You can bet your bottom dollar have policies aplenty re Scottish independence - does Gerry Hassan expect copies of them to be placed in his local library? They will be Top Secret and at the very least subject to the 100 year rule for disclosure of public documents, some will never be revealed at all.
20

Hugo of Garven,

19/01/2008 20:22:41
#15 Saul Tyre,Germany 19/01/2008 16:55:29

"If Scots and English are so similar, why after 300 years of Union have the words 'Britain' and 'British' failed so miserably to become popular usage? Especially in England."

Quite simple.

THey regard them as being synonymous i.e. English = British ans Scotish = British = English.

I know, I worked there.
21

Border Scot,

20/01/2008 08:53:26
#13 - The simple fact is that up to now it has not ben acceptable to Scots. The reason why Scotland is in the Union still ius bcause the Scots have never voted for parties that back independence. It's no-one's fault - if that's the way you like to see it - but ours.

#14 - The Act of Union was agreed between two aristocratic elites. The English people had no say either. All elites in every part of the midle age British Isles sought to fight expansionsist wars - certainly Scots kings did just that as did the different kings of the Irish kingdoms. It is always worth remembering that most incomers into Ireland were Scots, not English people.
22

WHISTLEBLOWER,

Pissaff 21/01/2008 16:37:16
"Can Berwick Rangers continue to play in Scottish football?"

Yes, because Berwick is in Scotland, even if its ground is in England, on the other side of the river. Berwick (north of the Tweed) has never had a formal absorption into England.
23

Vin,

Dublin 18/04/2008 10:39:21
.....you know what..?? You'll never know...!! I lived in Edinburgh during the 90's & there was much stronger sentiment towards independence than today. Numerous polls all point in one direction... Scotland is to remain part of the UK and allow foreigners tell them how to raiose their taxes etc etc etc... Sorry if these words sound strong but the spirit of William Wallace (Mel..) has fallen back into a deep slumber....
24

Wee Beardie,

Edinburgh 18/04/2008 17:59:34
Not a single word of personal abuse!

Let's hope that's the future of discussions here on independence.
25

Graeme M,

Australia 19/04/2008 09:06:34
Apart from all the yakety yak, the reasons against, the arguments against, the probabilities, the failures, the hopes and dreams, the history of the past, something we all ponder in thinking about independence.But my,at the end of the day don't we think it would all be worth it in the long run?... The feardies out there will tell you all sorts and the money-men the same, would it not be nice in fact wonderful if we could wake up one morning and say to ourselves, Scotland is free?...The country we love has a new beginning, a new future, and individualism, a place in the world...Not to be called England anymore like it has been in the past...I pray for it!...

 

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