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Bishop's unhelpful comments



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Published Date: 13 March 2008
WE LIVE in a secular society. That has a very precise meaning. It is not a signal for atheists to use the state to restrict the freedom to worship, or gratuitously to insult those with religious faith. However, a secular society is about tolerance for everyone, whether religious or not. It means simply that we guarantee everyone the right to freedom of belief and conduct, provided it does not harm others.
It is against this background that we have to consider remarks by the Rt Rev Joseph Devine, the Bishop of Motherwell. He has given a speech using language towards the gay community which many will find intemperate. He is at pains to say he "does not condemn", but he talks of a secular "conspiracy"; refers to "the homosexual lobby"; warns that "we neglect the gay movement at our peril"; and queries why gay groups attend the Holocaust Memorial Day commemorations.

The bishop is pursuing a high-risk strategy to open a public debate on moral values. No-one is happy with the moral climate of modern Britain, but suggesting it is the result of a secularist "conspiracy" is unhelpful, if not paranoid. To refer to a "homosexual lobby" is deeply uncharitable if not offensive. Between 1933 and 1945, 100,000 gay men were imprisoned by the Nazis' regime and 9,000 died in concentration camps. That is justification enough for gays to remember the Holocaust.





The full article contains 239 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 12 March 2008 9:20 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Beth Boyle,

NY 13/03/2008 06:41:27
Well the Bishop is actually right. It's going on here too. The Church is under attack by Gay culture here as well and they want to see the Church dead for the most part. Obviously every gay person does not but the activists do. Its not unlike the animal rights movement and its spreading. Most of the gay people I know are not involved by the activists are and sping the Church as an evil backward monster to be killed at any cost. I have gay family members mind you and love them.
2

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 09:42:21
#1 "I have gay family members mind you and love them."

Ah, this must be the special Catholic version of "love", as preached by hate-filled Joe Devine, which manifests itself in spreading lies, hypocrisy and distortion.

It's a funny kind of love, that.
3

Jayess,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 10:57:41
A plague on both of you I say.
"Oh, would some power the giftie gie us, tae see oorselves as ithers see us, it wid frae mony a fancy free us, and foolish notion".

4

hlz,

Glesgae 13/03/2008 11:39:44
Re: #1 - Beth, hen, as someone who was very involved in churches, mostly of the Evangelical variety, I can assure you churches are the only place where you will hear about this 'gay conspiracy' to bring down The Church and, consequently, society.

By and large, until very recent years, gay people experienced dreadful treatment at the hands of their congregations and church leaders.

For the most part they have responded by, uhh, not going to church.

That's all. They simply told their new pals church was rubbish and the elders / leaders were a bunch of hypocrits.

Then they got on with their new lives.

Additionally, I'm unclear about your reference to the animal rights' movement.

Is there a gay organisation like the ALF (animal liberation front) or ARM (animal rights militia)?

No.

Have churches been bombed?

No.

Are priests shot in the street? Do congregation families come under attack? Do ministers forego wearing a doggie collar because they might be attacked by a gay person?

No, no, no.

So, ummm, it's nothing like the animal rights movement, then, is it?

Do gay people study, have jobs, claim benefits?

Yes.

Do gay people keep in touch with friends and family?

Yes.

Do gay people want to be in happy relationships and would they like the legal protection that goes along with that?

Yes and yes.

Please, Beth, enjoy the company of the gay people you know and sleep easy knowing that if society falls apart it was not one of them who orchestrated it!
5

Beth Boyle,

NY 13/03/2008 16:55:42
I knew I would draw fire for my comments. I am actually a rather liberal Presbyterian. I stand by what I said. I am not judging any Gay person or wishing anyone any harm or sadness. The fact is there is a branch of very intense Gay activists who want to see the whole Church dead. They think all religion is evil and see all branches of the Church as the same. My ideas do were not fed to me from anyone in my own Church they are based on my life experinces. I am well read and spend allot of time trying to be the best I can be. I am right out there and if you want to hit out at me I will take your blows but I stand by what I said.
6

elizabeth veldon,

13/03/2008 16:57:00
yea a gay conspiricy.

Is that like denieing the Hollocost which is what the Good Bishop is doing?
7

elizabeth veldon,

13/03/2008 16:59:12
~5:

Well read? In what?

I do not hate religion, I am an agnostic and if you what the worship a being who's existance can not be proved then go right ahead. just don't use your superstition to pass moral judgment on me or anyone else.
8

elizabeth veldon,

13/03/2008 17:04:03
oh and did I mention Holicaust Dennial?

The Good Bishop has lined himself right up along with the BNP, Combat 18, Irvin...

He keeps some hallowed company.
9

Beth Boyle,

NY 13/03/2008 17:04:03
I have passed moral judgement on no one I simply stand by the statement there is an extreme branch of Gay activist who want all religion dead. Nuf said.
10

elizabeth veldon,

13/03/2008 17:04:22
~9:

your proof?
11

elizabeth veldon,

13/03/2008 17:08:52
OK in your silence I'll quote you back:

The Church is under attack by Gay culture here as well and they want to see the Church dead for the most part

---atack? What kind of atack? What in 'Gay' Culture atacks the Church.

Its not unlike the animal rights movement and its spreading

---I remember no mainstream activists who call for violent resistance.

12

Beth Boyle,

NY 13/03/2008 17:09:00
Elizabeth I am finished with this thread. Obviously no one is rational about this issue so goodbye.
13

elizabeth veldon,

13/03/2008 17:11:52
~12:

What I ask you for evidence of this conspiricy and you claim I'm not being rational?

The basis of rationalism is to base one's world view on evidence so I, therefore, asked you for evidence.

Should I assume that you have none or is it that you mearly do not wish to give out this conclusive evidence?
14

s-dude,

California 13/03/2008 17:16:00
Odd how the Bishop accuses gays of playing the victim card while he himself whines about how the poor persecuted Church is under attack.

What he conveniently ignores while discussing the Holocaust is the Church's promulgation of murderous anti-Semitism through most of its long history, the Church's connivance in the rise of fascism in Spain and Italy, and its extremely mixed record during WWII and the Holocaust. Yes, some Catholic priests and some of their flocks did oppose Nazism, but there was plenty of complicity, too (e.g., the Monsignor who ruled Slovakia on behalf of the Nazis), and the highly ambiguous role of Pius XII is still being debated.

While Rome calls gays "intrinsically disordered," refuses to let gay Catholics use Church property, and seeks (as in the current example) to steer public policy against gay rights, I challenge the good Bishop to come up with a single reputable gay organization that officially opposes the Church or individual Catholics on issues other than Rome's steadfast opposition to the rights of sexual minorities (or related issues, such as condom use). We simply want to live our lives free of the influence of medieval dogma that we don't subscribe to. Is that too much to ask? (Well, apparently, yes.)
15

elizabeth veldon,

13/03/2008 17:22:21
~14:

no my friend you don't relaise. If you as much as breath a word against the Catholic Church or even transgress in thought you wish to seek it's distruction.

It's the position of someone with Paraniod Schitzophrenia realy isn't it?
16

s-dude,

California 13/03/2008 17:24:07
Beth, yes, I (along with very straight folks like Christopher Hitchens) think that the record of organized religion on human rights issues is often pretty dismal. But organized groups of gays have never gone out and, with official approval, slaughtered those we theologically disagree with, be they Protestants or Muslims or Jews. Can the Roman Catholic Church say the same?
17

elizabeth veldon,

13/03/2008 17:26:10
~16: I think BB's left this site.

I asked them to provide proof of thegayconspiricy and they responded with a cry of irationality on my part.
18

s-dude,

California 13/03/2008 17:46:37
17-

Well, the thing about organized religion is that it, BY DEFINITION, embraces irrationality. Still, the Church forgave Galileo for saying the Earth went around the Sun, even if it took them three centuries to do so...
19

elizabeth veldon,

13/03/2008 18:03:01
indeed religion is inherently irational. I have a good Anglican friend who says so all the time. I respect him for his honesty but, unfortunatly, the comintator here could not see this and so accused myself of irationality.
20

Lady Muck,

13/03/2008 21:20:48
Is this bishop mad ? I hardly think that with the Catholic Church's historical failure to condemn the Nazi's or to thelp the Jews he is in any position to criticise gays who wish to remember their brothers and sisters who were imprisoned and murdered because of their sexuality. What this Bishop and Catholics in general can't accept is that the world has moved on, well our bit of it, and most people accept gays and reject discrimination against them. He is just soooooo annoyed abiout that isn't he. Hey Bishop - gays can adopt and you can't stop them.

 

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