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Muslims are welcomed as 'the latest of Jock Tamson's bairns'

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Published Date:
07 July 2007
KENNY MacAskill, the Cabinet secretary for justice, embraced Scotland's muslim community as "the latest of Jock Tamson's bairns" yesterday in an attempt to heal any divisions caused by the terrorist attack in Glasgow.
Mr MacAskill praised the muslim community during a visit to the Edinburgh Central Mosque, insisting that Scotland had a long history of welcoming people from different countries and religions.

He said he wanted "to pay respect to the muslim commu
nity in Scotland, to recognise they are a vital factor in 21st century Scotland, they are just the latest of Jock Tamson's bairns."

He added: "Throughout Scotland's history, people have come whether from Italy, Ireland or elsewhere. The muslim community is one of the more recent arrivals but they are equally valid and equally Jock Tamson's bairns as is every other community."

The phrase is often used in an egalitarian way and is thought to have derived from the Reverend John Thomson, 19th century minister who called his congregation "mah bairns".

The Justice Secretary also condemned acts of retaliation and vandalism against the muslim community after the Glasgow airport attack.

Mr MacAskill said: "Any incident is an incident too many.

"What we are grateful for is that the incidents have been few, but troubling. In many instances we are also heartened that they have been reported by non-Muslim members of the community, rightly disgusted and outraged."

"Police, prosecution and government will not countenance anybody seeking to vent their racist spleen on individuals."

Jalal Chaudry, a spokesman for the Muslim community in Edinburgh, praised the way Scottish ministers reacted.

He said: "As soon as this incident happened the Muslim community was very nervous.

"But the way that the justice minister let us know that it wasn't local people, and that they (the suspects) were not born and raised in this country, came as a big relief to the Muslim community."

And he added: "The way that (First Minister) Alex Salmond and the others have dealt with the situation has won the hearts and minds of the Muslim community."



The full article contains 350 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 06 July 2007 8:35 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Muslim issues
 
1

macdonaj,

Aberdeen Scotland 07/07/2007 00:19:27

This article makes us even more proud of Scotland
and its SNP government. Way to go!

2

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

07/07/2007 00:44:20

As Scots, we must always lend our hand when the welfare of fellow Scots is threatened.

Scotlands Asian community have added so much value to this Country of ours, in both commerce and culture... and continue to do so each and every day. They are True Scots in every positive sense of the word.

Shoulder to shoulder we must stand against the rascists and bigots that seek every and any opportunity to practice their dirty deeds.

The attack at Glasgow airport was indiscriminate in nature and would surely have killed a number of Asian/Muslim Scots. This was as much an attack on them as anyone else.

So lets support them and stand together.

SCOTLAND UNITED !!!

3

scotleag,

07/07/2007 00:56:38

I agree with every word said at No 2. I would fo further and suggest that had the attack succeeded it would have killed a large number of people of many nationalities.

A shame that this commonsense approach isn't appreciate by the first poster. Is he/she trying to suggest that the previous administration would have said or done anything different? If so that's a dreadful calumny. If not then why try to score points for the SNP?

4

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

07/07/2007 01:13:46

Scotleag..

You're right.

This type of event is way beyond politics and I'm certain ANY Scottish administration would take the same approach in reassuring and supporting our Muslim community.

I'm also certain that all decent Scots, whichever Party they support, Labour, LibDem, Tory, SSP....whatever.... will all stand united on this... and will never allow any scapegoating of any part of Scottish society as a result of this foreign terrorist action.

Scotland United !!!

5

Tearlach MacPolk,

07/07/2007 02:54:59

I have to commend the Scottish leaders and people for not having a "tar and feather" mentality, but a Scotland United one.

6

W Smith,

Middle East 07/07/2007 03:14:33

Macaskill is a complete idiot and a weasel.

The philosophy of weasel goes something like this:

"The muslims born and raised in Scotland can't possibly be fanatics or terrorists".

Where has dolt Macaskill been?

1) The terrorist that carried out the London Underground bombing were born and raised in England were they not?

2) The Bosnian Muslims who supported Hitler were born and raised in Bosnia were they not?

3) The mad Burkha wearing women armed with sticks ready to battle with the police at the Red Mosque were all born and raised in Pakistan were they not?

4) Finally, even Scots who were born and raised in Scotland went to Northern Ireland and chose to get involved in terrorist activities. Both catholic and protestant. Are all Scots bigots ready to fight in Northern Ireland? Of cours not! But we expect the police and the politicians to be alert when dealing with with the Muslim community or any other community.

In my opinion, Mr Macaskill's logic is for anti-Israeli simpletons.

This man has his own agenda.

His mate Salmond voted against anti-terrorist laws and now is a close friend of George "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter" Galloway.

Salmond the patriot joined the marxists '79 Group' while some 'evil' unionists Scots were serving in the British Armed Forces during the Cold War.

Salmond prefers the comany of 'unionist' Galloway who has said the collapse of the Soviet Union was the biggest catastrophe in his life.

Macaskill is therefore a poor judge of character and is a soft on crime dolt.

If you have forgotten about his wonderful plans for Scottish homegrown born and bred criminials then I suggest you go back and read the Scotsman article on the 7th June 2007.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=889572007

Macaskill's views in t

7

Ralph Kramden,

07/07/2007 04:06:30

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

Sound familiar Mr. Macaskill?

I am not anti-moslem nor anti-Asian - but I am anti-terrorist and these people need to be rooted out and dealt with. lets face it most moslems in Scotland are Moslems first, nationalists second and Scottish third.

8

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 07/07/2007 05:22:21

Blood on the streets ................ its gonna happen, no matter what the mannie speel is .............

9

Auckland Arab2,

07/07/2007 06:10:26

#8

When did you run the opinion poll that came out with that finding? Or is it your own prejudice showing through - one of the many "I have nothing against moslems personally but....."

Xenophobia is being femented in our society against people who have lived peacefully and law-abidingly in the UK for years. Yes there is a terrorist issue, a big one, but demonising sections of our own society is wrong. Remember Germany in the 30s?

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it

10

donald,

weegieland 07/07/2007 06:21:36

UK. Terrorist State.

11

Boyce,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 07:15:57

7

Zionist extremism at its very best yet again on these threads. Any thread with a hint of Islam in it will get the Zionist fascists out in droves followed closely by the Neocon Nazis how did these two extremities ever manage to kiss and make up?

8
so what are you Zionist? fascist? or just ignorant.

9

You wish!

12

W Smith,

Middle East 07/07/2007 07:20:44

Just found this comment on the herald posted by one SNP supporter. Donald Anderson. 6.01 am.

He says "...better ditching the BUTCHER'S APRON for saltires.."

Dear God Mr Salmond what can of worms have you opened up?

This is what Mr Salmond calls 'tolerance'. Salmond claims to be against bigotry but allows a few of his believers to use language like this.

I've argued for independence here but from now on its tongue in cheek.

My uncle, a unionist, fought in the Second World War as navigator in the RAF under this flag that some SNP voters call the 'Butchers Apron'.

So Salmonds going to teach my uncle on how to be a 'proper nationalist' then?

I hope the moderates in the SNP will now speak out on this 'Butchers apron' nonsense with the same 'righteous indignation' they spoke out against Bush and Blair.

Salmond's relationship with George Galloway is highly suspect.

Especially considering his support for the IRA and the fact that the IRA have had links with muslim terrorists for more than 20 years.

Blaming Bush and the Iraq War for this terrorist connection shows some SNP members don't have one ounce of integrity - while they love calling Tony Blair a liar.

13

Boyce,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 07:34:38

12

What a hypocrite you are after posting yer bile at post 7 you accuse somebody else of intolerance.
And yer man Blair has just returned from embrassing a terrorist in Libya and doing deals with him.
And by the way the butchers apron comment is a pretty accurate description of the Union flag by any standards hardly intolerance to state the truth.

14

mr chips,

07/07/2007 07:59:44

13. Dr Who / Seconded.
Disappear smith we dont need yer bile on here.

15

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 07/07/2007 08:00:09

Well said Dr Who!.

16

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

07/07/2007 08:23:23

W.Smith#7...

What a disgusting and offensive rascist post.

First time ever I have been moved to report as unsuitable.

I wont hide behind annonimity, however.

If post #7 is removed.... as it should be....

....Twas I.

Copy of complaint....

Dear sir,
In view of recent events, eg rascist attacks on Scottish Muslims, this post is distasteful and insulting.

The language is abusive... ie "MacAskill is a complete idiot and a weasel" and ..."where has dolt MacAskill been" and..."MacAskills logic is for anti-Israeli simpletons".

The last comment re "anti Israeli siimpletons" is also a thinly veiled attempt to portray Mr MacAskill as anti-Israeli and therefor an anti-semite.

This post is offensive, abusive and false, and inflamitory.

17

Taking a Bigot's Money,

Dundee 07/07/2007 08:31:18

Salmond had better have some really long spoons to sup with his new buddies - Martin McGuinness, Ian Paisley and George Galloway.

I wonder who'll be next?

18

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

07/07/2007 08:34:05

AM2

Sad and low even by your standards.

Kenny MacAskill was responding only to the attack at Glasgow airport and the resulting revenge attacks on innocent Scots by rascists and bigots.

In this he was correct, entirely and completely.

For the likes of you and Smith to attempt to gain cheap political capitol from this is beneath contempt.

You are, in fact, the appeasers.... appeasers of the rascist bigots attacking our fellow Scots.

You are placing a question mark over the entire Muslim community without any justification whatsoever.

To this point.... there never has been a Scottish Muslim accused of being a terrorist or of engaging in violence against the UK, and until such time as such an event, if ever, occurs... you would do yourselves a huge favour by thinking before engaging your typing fingers.

Disgust !!!!

19

Taking a Bigot's Money,

Dundee 07/07/2007 08:36:11

Radical Islam has no national boundaries - McAskill is naive at best if he thinks we don't have a problem in Scotland.

He should try visiting some of our traditional universities where the likes of Hizb-ut-Tahrir and al Muhajiroun have been recruiting for a number of years.

20

frank mcbride,

lusitania 07/07/2007 08:37:40

W.Smith, AM2.

As inciters of racism you are equally as dangerous as the terrorist.

21

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

07/07/2007 08:38:48

18

You mean like Blair supping with Gadaffi, Bush and Putin

...not to mention it was Blair and Labour that brought Gerry Adams, McGuiness etc for tea and biscuits in London in the first place.

Breathtaking hypocrisy as usual from the Labour Unionists....

22

Taking a Bigot's Money,

Dundee 07/07/2007 08:41:23

#22 The old SNP ploy - if you don't agree with them you are a unionist.

You sir an ignoramus of the first degree.

23

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 08:47:45

#20

You're so right. As usual, one must be racist to single out any one ethnic group for criticism. The fingerpointers amongst us are being dangerously naive if they don't admit there are those amongst the Pakistani community who condone and support the actions of the terrorists. Why should Scotland's mosques be different to England's? Just because we kid ourselves that the Scots are less racist than the English? There IS a problem that the Moslems in Scotland have to address, not the Protestants, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists.....

24

Taking a Bigot's Money,

Dundee 07/07/2007 08:50:41

#24 Radical Islam is a whole different ball-game from Irish nationalism - we are dealing with people who are not willing to yield an inch.

25

Mikey,

07/07/2007 09:01:34

I can't be *rsed with racists, but there again, I can't be *rsed with multiculturalists either.

Perhaps if our youngsters were taught more about our own culture, then we could provide a base to work from. At present, too many multiculturalists tend to subsume Scots culture in favour of another.

Just read some of the garbage spouted by the unionistas on this page and you'll know what I mean!

26

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

07/07/2007 09:06:39

#23

And you, sir, are an................

............eggplant.

27

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 09:09:14

#28 Peter
You can't compare the situation in 1960s Northern Ireland and here in 2007. Yes, the Catholics suffered discrimination in jobs and housing and political gerrymandering at the hands of the Unionists. The subsequent reaction of some of the Catholic minority cannot be condoned but is understandable. But the situation of Moslems in the UK is totally different. They have the same opportunities and the right to partake in democracy as any other ethnic group. Yet, however much you believe otherwise, a significant minority (especially in parts of England) reject the values of the UK and ahere to the poisonous nonsense spread by their co-religionists elsewhere.

28

frank mcbride,

lusitania 07/07/2007 09:13:46

#26, AM2.

It matters not a whit that I am an SNP supporter.

The fact remains that the comments to which I referred are, in fact, incitement to racism.

Ther is no doubt that terrorist have to be isolated bu, this will not happen by creating anxiety amongst the Muslim community and the wider community.

By all means critise Radical Islam for what it is but please, support the efforts to isolate the terrorists from the wider Muslim community.

Posting succour for racist comments only plays into the hands of the terrorists and those who would want even more control. Worse still, it gives credence to the Fascist element in our society.

29

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

07/07/2007 09:16:45

AM2....

You claim...

"It is only a matter of time before a Scottish-born and raised Muslim carries out a terrorist atrocity."

Not so. Scaremongering and scapegoating in the first degree.

Shame on you.

And as I said in post#4..... this issue is beyond politics. All scots should unite behind a section of our community that is being targeted unfairly and entirely without justification.

Your statement ..."It is only a matter of time before a Scottish-born and raised Muslim carries out a terrorist atrocity."..... sounds like ..."well, they may not have done it THIS time..... but they'll get round to it in time"

Many will take that as a green light for "Pre_emptive" strikes against our Muslim community.

Loose talk at best..... incitement at worst.

And to attempt to gain political capitol and indulge in charecter assassination on the back of this is contemptible

30

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 09:18:36

#33 Peter

Inclusion only works if all parties want to be included. Yes, the minority of Pakistani minority seems to have intigrated more into Scottish society, but I would suggest that is because it is a much smaller minority and would have left itself dangerously isolated had it not chosen to do so. Have you been to Luton or the towns of north west England? The Pakistani and Bangladeshis there have made little or no effort to include themselves. If that's racist, so be it.

31

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

07/07/2007 09:24:22

AM2

You refer to MacAskills ignorance... and suggest he is guilty of something ???? You're making it up, aren't you? Or perhaps you will teel us precisely what he said/did wrong....bearing in mind what he ACTUALY said.....


"Mr MacAskill praised the muslim community during a visit to the Edinburgh Central Mosque, insisting that Scotland had a long history of welcoming people from different countries and religions.

He said he wanted "to pay respect to the muslim community in Scotland, to recognise they are a vital factor in 21st century Scotland, they are just the latest of Jock Tamson's bairns."

He added: "Throughout Scotland's history, people have come whether from Italy, Ireland or elsewhere. The muslim community is one of the more recent arrivals but they are equally valid and equally Jock Tamson's bairns as is every other community."

32

subrosa,

07/07/2007 09:28:02

This post will possibly be removed and labelled racist but it has to be said. Burkahs should be banned in this country from immediate effect (although I have only seen one in the area I live). From a security point of view it is essential as, it appears, terrorists have taken to wearing them for their own ends. Sadly this behaviour affects the women who wear it for their own reasons but I would hope they would be willing to sacrifice this style of clothing for the safety of the people. Oh! It appears terrorists now work with various police forces (see latest in Herald).

33

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 09:28:39

#41 Eric

None of what MacAskill can be argued against. But he failed to highlight to his Moslem hosts that they have a problem in their midst. Is that being a true compatriot or a political coward. It's like ignoring a friend's drug addiction problem, ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

34

Taking a Bigot's Money,

Dundee 07/07/2007 09:29:01

Eric - you are choosing to read something that has not even been written here - and as for your comments on Scottish-born terrorists - naive to the extreme.

Did you know that one of the Bali bombers was educated at - wait for it - Dundee University?

There is a major problem within certain Scottish HE institutions regards recruitment from Hizb-ut-Tahrir and al Muhajiroun - that's not me talking but well-regarded organisations such as Searchlight.

35

Taking a Bigot's Money,

Dundee 07/07/2007 09:38:14

#45 Many of these recruited though come from relatively well-off middle-class backgrounds - trying to equate the events here with those in Northern Ireland is spurious to say the least.

36

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

07/07/2007 09:42:21

Draco

You, and I, have no idea what was said in public.

TBM.... The Muslim community is well aware of attempts to radicalise their youngsters.... the fear it more than you or I... believe me.

I have constant contact with many Scots Muslims.

They have been vigilant and continue to be so.

Support them.

And reject all attempts to somehow smear them with regards to the completely foreign attack on Glasgow Airport

37

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 09:43:28

#45 Peter

OK, joblessness and PERCEIVED discrimination may be reasons for disaffection among 3rd generation Moslems as you say. But that's my pint, it's PERCEIVED. Why should there be such levels of poverty and underachievement among Moslems when other new arrivals such as Hindu and Sikh Indians or the Chinese have been so successful. The reason is that significant numbers of the Moslem community have chosen to isolate themselves and to look towards International Islam as their country rather than the UK. Their gripe with the UK and the host community is spurious and their underachievement in our society largely self-inflicted.

38

Taking a Bigot's Money,

Dundee 07/07/2007 09:43:28

#45 Another reason not to equate this situation with Northern Ireland - in Northern Ireland the republican movement was (apart from small splinter groups) a cohesive grouping of like-minded people. Radical Islam is not so easily classified - there a wide variety of groups putting their own little spin and interpretation on the Q'ran.

It is like dealing with a many-headed Hydra instead of just a single snake.

39

Andrew Allan,

07/07/2007 09:46:56

W. Smith., #7, & Ralph Kramden., #8.
The Scottish tradition of anti-elitism has helped us no end, and we should stick with it. Even though it is true that it isn’t impossible for terrorists to be home grown, to treat communities against our traditions would surely create terrorist roots that you are talk about rooting out, and so self prophesising an event we surely don’t wish to happen.

40

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 09:50:54

#48 Eric

Point conceded. I have no idea what was discussed in private or levels of co-operation between mosque elders and the security services.

However, why are so many Imams brought here from elsewhere? Why is Urdu the overwhelming language of worship in mosques? Surely it would be advantageous for all of us for the Moslem community to train its own preachers here in Scotland so that the tenets of Islam could be better taught in a Scottish context.

41

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 09:59:22

#52 Peter,

I'm sorry, but we shouldn't be trying to understand someone with a perceived grievance. We shouldn't be pandering to them or appeasing them. If their grievance isn't real, it's THEIR problem not ours. They have to address it. The other incomers can make the very best of coming to live in the UK, why can't the Moslems? To say they are somehow a special case who needs special understanding is patronising and, may I suggest, a tad racist.

42

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 10:10:01

#57

Your arguments are being undermined by your childish mimicking of the Ulster accsent. Doubt you would do it with a Pakistani one but that's by the by.

Re your point. Some, not all, Christian churches are evolving to address 21st attitudes. I'm thinking of attitudes to women and gay people. I've yet to here of a liberal wing of Islam when it comes to the standing of these groups in society.

43

osama,

Pollokshaws 07/07/2007 10:28:01

#52peter

I agree with your statement (I would propose that it is better to reduce the sense of isolation through understanding their grievances (real or imagined) and addressing them)there have been extreme elements such as AM2 on both sides that have made a bad situation worst.

As for Muslims, they now live through very difficult times that unfortunately make them more vulnerable to an emotional reaction. I call on my brothers and sisters in Islam, everywhere, to be self-confident and have the confidence in our religion so that we don't feel that it is threatened by every hateful or impolite provocation. Only then can we react in a way that turns the challenge into an opportunity, and we can even gain more hearts and minds for Islam.

As for why the other parties take extreme situations, it is actually attributed to many reasons, some of them are the results of ignorance, or the brainwash by wicked propaganda or by historical factors, and with all honesty, some of them are genuinely afraid of Muslims because of the ugly images attributed to some Muslim extremists. These extremists are feeding to the environment of fear and hysteria that the enemies of Islam are propagating.

44

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 10:37:06

#62 Osama,

Sorry to have to tell you, but we're ALL, Muslim and non-Muslim, living in very difficult times, mostly because of the fascist psycopaths amongst YOUR co-religionists. Your post is an example of the self-indulgent, victim-mentality, head-in the-sand attitude amongst Moslems that is exactly the problem. 'We can gain more hearts and minds for Islam', eh? Scary, very scary.

45

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 10:44:32

#63 Peter,

Take it on the chin, sir. You know you were ripping the piss out of, I presume, AM2s Ulster accent, which was unedifying.

To get back again. I'm no apologist for any relgion, let alone the atrocities commited in Christ's name over the centuries. All I am saying that some Christian sects have come into the 21st century and are evolving (or should that be returning to the true message of Christ?). But liberal or not, can you honestly say that the attitude of Islam towards the equality of women, gays and other religions is acceptable in this day and age?

46

frank mcbride,

lusitania 07/07/2007 10:47:49

#46, AM2.

You really are a sad piece of work. You refuse to answer the points made and, then accuse the posters who have made them of trying to stifle debate.

When we do as you ask, and descend to the gutter of racism, we accept that the Radicals (terrorists) have won. Your attitudes, as shown in other posts on this subject, show you very clearly as having little insight and very little grasp of historical precedent. Where have terrorist of any colour or creed been beaten by State repession?

Your words are nothing but an apology for the extreme Right Wing on both sides of this issue.

47

frank mcbride,

lusitania 07/07/2007 11:00:03

#67, Peter.

Please don't suggest inclusion and dialogue as a way forward as you would be stifling debate.

48

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 11:03:01

#68 Frank

The Communist insurgents were defeated in Malaya because the vast majority of people there didn't support them. You're right, groups using terrorist tactics won't be defeated where they are supported by the majority. But Islamic fundamentalist terrorists are a tiny minority here so CAN be defeated, if only we don't appease them. If members of the Moslem community truly disagree with the tactics of the terrorists they won't take offence at agreeing their community has a problem.

49

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 11:16:25

#71 Peter, apologies if I maligned you there, but stop it anyway it's dtrecting from your argument.

But yet again, you don't answer the point. The Catholic may hold some very conservative viewpoints but I think it's days of armed global domination are long gone. I dont see Pope Benedict living in a cave in Bora Bora somehow. And it isn't nowadays a violent religion. You don't answer me, do you find mainstream Islam's attitude to women, gays, other religions, Sharia Law, apostates etc acceptable? And no, our more enlightened attitudes to outsiders as a Nation shouldn't change. And I have no fear that the presence of a small number of Moslems in this country puts my country at risk. But it's not an irrational fear. The basis of Islam is to spread the teachings of a very illiberal faith.

50

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

07/07/2007 11:20:00

Osama

The vast, vast majority of your fellow Scots are with you, respect you.... and will never sit back and allow bigoted rascists to take cheap pot shots at you.

Regards.

51

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 11:26:24

You're SO patronising. Does the poor wee Moslem need nice Scot to defend him, eh? To reassure him that we all love him? I probably strongly disagree with Osama on many points but I don't doubt he's fully capable of arguing them himself. Yes I have the audacity to disgree with him and his very illiberal faith but it doesn't, I hope, make me a racist. You're the one firing the easy slur.

52

frank mcbride,

lusitania 07/07/2007 11:41:39

#72, AM2.

I don't have a lawyer checking my posts, as you seem to have. I do, however, recognised language that is designed to incite. Your #16, and several others on this thread are are indeed incitement to racism.

If you do, indeed, view my accusation is spurious and an attempt to stifle free speech. Feel free to defend yourself.

I eagerly await you defence as it can only reinforce my accusation.

53

frank mcbride,

lusitania 07/07/2007 11:45:31

#70, Draco.

My point exactly.

We should be using dialogue and inclusion rather than invective and isolation.

54

thatscottishwoman 2,

07/07/2007 11:51:47

#4 Erik, #5 Dr Who,

Well said.

#10 Auckland Arab:

"Xenophobia is being femented in our society against people who have lived peacefully and law-abidingly in the UK for years. Yes there is a terrorist issue, a big one, but demonising sections of our own society is wrong. Remember Germany in the 30s?"

Completely agree.

#7 W. Smith:

In your book.....Pro-Israel = Anti-Arab?

Your diatribe at #7 is both racist and sectarian.

#16 AM2:

Is this the AM, Glasgow that I spent much time discussing the Israeli/Palestinian conflict with a few months ago? Probably, same modus operandi.

55

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 11:54:38

#77 Peter,

I get the idea that you might be a man suffering an inner turmoil here!! You seem to be a man with a very open mind who has seen a lot of the world. It's a shame that Islam isn't as open-minded as you. I have never argued that Moslems, as individuals, are in any way different to me or have different aspirations for themselves or their families. But please answer my question. Would you limit the aspirations of your wife or daughter compared to those of your son purely because they are female? Would you ostracise your child because they were gay? Would you disown your sibling because they had converted to Judaism or Taoism? Do you think stoning to death is acceptable for adultery (women only of course)? I disagree with Islam, 'moderate' or Wahabi. because of this. I would never, ever forbid anyone coming here the right to practice their faith. You know that many, many Moslems would not be so accomodating of me.

56

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 12:13:28

Away to the gym. AM2, leaving you to fight the good fight. Remember, in the words of Mr. Orwell

LEFT WING = GOOD, RIGHT WING = BAAAAAAD

57

frank mcbride,

lusitania 07/07/2007 12:21:53

#81, AM2

Glad to see you've put your shovel down.

58

frank mcbride,

lusitania 07/07/2007 12:26:10

#87

Obviously I was premature. Of course AM2 is not suggesting anything in #85.

59

walter,

07/07/2007 12:30:26

The muslim community is one of the more recent arrivals but they are equally valid and equally Jock Tamson's bairns as is every other community."

Jock Tamson's bairns, A phrase used to indicate that we are all the sons and daughters of Scotland in other words we are all Scots.


"Police, prosecution and government will not countenance anybody seeking to vent their racist spleen on individuals."

If these attacks are perpetrated by Scots on other Scots for no other reason than the individuals are muslims then surely the attacks ate for religious reasons and not racial reasons.

60

Name,

07/07/2007 12:31:19

#2 Not all "Asians" are Muslim.

It's a bit like saying all "white europeans" living in Scotland are "Christian"

Bigot.

61

Taking a Bigot's Money,

Dundee 07/07/2007 14:04:55

At the end of the day it is important for everyone not to tolerate the extremists - vigilance within communities is vital.

For example, one threat that some may not be aware of is the attempts by Polish Nazis to establish a Polish Fascist Party in the UK - with Scotland (the North-East in particular) being a target. It is only with working with moderate sections of the community that the extremists can be isolated. This is as true for Islamic radicals, Polish fascists or even our own Nazis (BNP/Combat 18). Denying there is a problem only makes matters worse.

62

Melanthios,

07/07/2007 14:28:48

Seeing if this is printed

63

nell from falkirk,

07/07/2007 14:51:30

When I read the article, I thought "bravo, Kenny McAskill, and was proud that my fellow Scots have the brains not to be taken in by the racists and by the fomenters of trouble, and have the common decency to see that the vast, vast majority of Muslims in our country are good, decent, hardworking people, and an asset to this country.
But then I started reading the comments, and there they are crawling out of their holes, the W.Smiths and the AM2's, with their bile and their ignorance and their unreasoning hatred.

Your logic is flawed - if the terrorists are Muslim, so all Muslims are terrorists.
From which it follows, if Peter Sutcliffe was a white Englishman, so all white Englishmen are mass murderers.

#84 "Would you limit the aspirations of your wife or daughter compared to those of your son purely because they are female? Would you ostracise your child because they were gay? Would you disown your sibling because they had converted to Judaism or Taoism? Do you think stoning to death is acceptable for adultery (women only of course)?"

More flawed logic - because some Muslims may believe or practice some of these things, you extend it to say that all Muslims do, which is rubbish.

Many Christians also believe or practice all the things you mention, does that mean all do?

64

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 07/07/2007 14:57:04

Just one point in the debate.

Someone suggested that radicalisation was due to poverty etc.

This myth has been exploded many a time.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article203...

is an interesting read. The myth is that due to poverty, minimal education, poverty of expectation, dysfunctional family, these people are easy targets for Islamic extremists.

"The reality, disturbingly, is very different. A study of 172 al-Qaeda terrorists conducted four years ago by Marc Sageman, a forensic psychiatrist and former CIA case officer in Pakistan, found that 90 per cent came from a relatively stable, secure background.

Three quarters were from middle-class or upper-class families, two thirds went to college and two thirds were professionals or semi-professionals, often engineers, physicians, architects or scientists. The average age for making an active commitment to violent jihad was 26, and three quarters of the terrorists were married, most of them with children. Only one in a hundred had shown any form of psychotic disorder. Two thirds became drawn towards a terror group while living in a country that was not their homeland. "

I think most people expected Muslim communities to broadly integrate into the west. Decades have passed and radicalism across Europe has increased if anything. Neither is this an 'Iraq thing'. Radicalism is a thriving in various European states (eg Netherlands) who have nothing to do with Iraq.

Radicalism (I'm not speaking of terrorism here) seems a backlash. Many feel western culture is alien. They feel rejected because they can't accept its values. As a result they seek a refuge in a black and white world of a more fundamentalist outlook. This may or may not lead to any kind of violence. In most cases not, but the friction and rejection is there.

65

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 07/07/2007 15:46:59

Lot of fascists and racists (nationalist and unionist) on this forum today. Absolutely Disgraceful.

66

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 15:50:43

#93 Nell, #96 Peter.

Back from the gym and see more of your stereotypes and lazy arguements. Either of you, when, on any of my posts have I mentioned ALL Muslims? I have not said all Muslims are terrorists. I have said some Muslims currently fail to fully condemn terrorism and believe the majority of Muslims hold values that make it difficult to integrate into Western societies. Nell, you go try live as you do here, but in Saudi, and see how far you get. Love that Sharia Law there, glad it's just a minority that subscribe to it. And Peter, thought you were a sensible guy who just happened to hold different views from myself. But from your post #95 and your renewed wee petty jibe at AM2 I see you are just the sort of bigot you profess to despise. You flatter yourself if that makes you a 'good' man' and anyone who disagrees with you an evil one.

67

Buchanan,

California 07/07/2007 16:12:50

Wow reading through these posts I am amazed to see to amount of racist & bigoted bile from so called
inclusive Unionists.

To criticize your elected Scottish government for
making positive and pro-active movements
to support Scottish Muslims at this
troubling time is unbelievably insular.
As Kenny MacKaskill mentions Scottish Muslims are
just another group of immigrants that have successfully integrated into the inclusive Scottish community. His comments are neither naive nor is
he a fool rather he is as with the rest of the Scottish
government looking after our best interests nothing
more nothing less. Apparently the Unionists have some other agenda rather than the best interests
of Scotland - the undertones would suggest something towards racial or religious purity ?

As for AM2's nonsense it clearly just shows
him for the bigot he is.
"It is only a matter of time before a Scottish-born and raised Muslim carries out a terrorist atrocity. "
According to his unbelievable ignorance the Scottish
Muslim portion of Scottish society needs to be
closely watched since they will inevitably launch
terrorist attacks within Scotland. I notice that no solution is actually given here - and I would be
really interested to know how this inevitable
Scottish Muslim terrorism is to be dealt with - perhaps there should be forced conversion to Christianity or perhaps if there is no solution
you would just have them all shipped out a la Enoch Powel ?

I do agree that we should look into further
understanding of reasons for these attacks,
and that should include illegal wars such
as Iraq which are causing massacres of their
people (mostly Muslims)
http://www.iraqbodycount.org.
And for the Unionists who will wail that this
has nothing do with the cause of Terrorism

68

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 16:21:23

#99 Buchanan

Who, in any post other than those obviously written by supporters of the SNP, has mentioned Unionism or Nationalism and in any way connected it to the discussion about Moslem terrorism? It's got hee haw to do with it. Whether Scotland is part of the Union or secedes from it will make no difference to how it is viewed by those Islamofascists who wish the West ill.

69

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 07/07/2007 16:22:44

99

Buchanan, it's not just the unionists - the nationalists are every bit as bad, if not worse.

70

Buchanan,

California 07/07/2007 16:24:14

scottish

71

W Smith,

Middle East 07/07/2007 16:32:38

1) On the same day that the English remember their dead (London Underground bombing) some SNP members go on to The Herald to prattle on and on about the Union flag being the 'Butchers Apron'.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.1527...

Suddenly the SNP voters aren't very politically correct!

Will these insensitive rants cause MacAskill to be 'angry'. Probably not.

So these comment on the Herald isn't what you calll 'bile' then eh?

2) The Great MacAskill Theory applied it to the non-muslim Scottish community looks like this:

a) No need to lock your car when you leave it outside in the street at night.

b) No need to lock your front door in the morning when you leave for work.

Why? 'Cos all your neighbours are home grown patriotic Scots who are totally honest.

DUH!!!!

Sigmand Freud doesn't get a look in eh? Not when MacAskill the honest lawyer and expert in human psychology is involved.

This blind naivety and stupidity is just incredible!

(Quick - press that icon that says 'report as unsuitable').

72

frank mcbride,

lusitania 07/07/2007 16:56:04

#101' Draco.

I think that the posters who are guilty of what you suggest are Taking the Bigot's Money and AM2; they were the first to make that suggestion.

73

frank mcbride,

lusitania 07/07/2007 17:08:52

AM2.

I still await your defence against my accusation that you are inciting racism in my #78.

You are continuing to do it by your normal dissembling. Your #107 is a justification not, as you would suggest, a clarification.

If you genuinely believe that your comments are not an incitement to racism then publish them in the formal media.

74

frank mcbride,

lusitania 07/07/2007 17:13:09

#105, W Smith.

Why would anyone wish to remove your post? Surely it is better to let everyone see you as you see yourself.

75

,

07/07/2007 17:18:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 767319, Article id was mapped to record!
76

AM4,

Larne 07/07/2007 17:23:43

It used to be Catholics that were 'the enemy within' 'home rule is Rome rule' etc.
The bigots have moved on to single out the Moslems.
Bigotry will be with us always, hatred and fear of what we do not understand is the basest of human instinct.


And yes I was refering directly to W.Smith as an example. AM2 is not a monster like that one, he is a creature that we have as yet to figure out.

His defence of the Union it would seem to be borne from nurture rather than nature.

He defends the values he was brought up to support
but his problem is merely that he refuses to contemplate that he might be wrong.

77

jester,

Somewhere Else 07/07/2007 17:27:17

"You are placing a question mark over the entire Muslim community without any justification whatsoever."


When we fought the Nazis a question mark was placed over every German living in Britain, in my opinion rightly so. When looking at where Islamic fundamentalists may gain support, one cannot deny that support may(I stress may) come from the existing Muslim community, and intelligence efforts should be directed accordingly. To me this is common sense.
What did we learn from the experience of dealing with Irish terrorism in this country? That there were people who would support, financially or otherwise, various terrorist groups which they felt an allegiance to. With this experience in mind why are we not alowed to assume that a similar pattern of behaviour may occur in the Scottish Muslim community?


To this point.... there never has been a Scottish Muslim accused of being a terrorist or of engaging in violence against the UK"

Until last week there had never been a terrorist attack deliberately aimed at Scotland. Things change. Perhaps you could clarify the above to read that ....To this point.... there never has been a Scottish Muslim apprehended for being a terrorist or of engaging in violence against the UK"

78

nell from falkirk,

07/07/2007 17:27:20

#107 what, bizarre to say that most Muslims in Scotland are good, honest, decent citizens who are an asset to this country?

Bizarre to suggest that demonising an entire religion, which covers people of many races, because amongst them are a very, very few who carry out evil acts is not logical?

Bizarre not to accept that because someone (#84 in this case) listis some extreme beliefs which may hold sway amongst some Muslim individuals or some Muslim societies, it's reasonable to extrapolate that and imply that those beliefs are somehow held by all Muslims and all Muslim societies?
Particularly when there are Christians aplenty who adhere to those same extreme beliefs.

I don't think so.

79

nell from falkirk,

07/07/2007 17:34:12

#98 Draco : Saudi is only one Muslim nation. I haven't lived there, so I don't feel qualified to pontificate.
However, I did live in Turkey for 15 years; so I do feel qualified to comment on it; it too is a Muslim nation, and I could live there as "free" as I do here.

And with, I might add, considerably less fear of crime and yobbery.

80

Queen D,

Glasgow 07/07/2007 17:34:23

It does'nt matter whether the terrorists are white ,black,green or yellow. It does'nt matter if they are christians,muslims ,rastafarians or whatever,they become a problem to us all!!
Right now ,it would appear that they are radicalised muslims and naturally we should turn to the muslim community for help and answers while not blaming that community for the activities of a few.
Fundamentalists of any religion are not my favourite people, I consider them suffocating and dangerous.

81

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 07/07/2007 17:47:31

#114 Nell

Oh so now it's gone from some Muslim individuals to some Muslim SOCIETIES that hold to 'extreme beliefs'? I repeat for the last time, I do NOT think that all Muslims are terrorists or hold extreme beliefs. You're being deliberately obtuse if you don't acknowledge that. But I refuse to be cowed from my right to condemn the beliefs and social mores of individuals or other societies, just because they're a different race or creed from me.

82

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 07/07/2007 17:50:17

And MacKaskill was trying to defuse a situation which appears to have nothing to do with Pakistani Scots.

Well, I suppose we'll all be minding our backs for a while yet.

83

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 07/07/2007 17:52:44

Better get used to minding your backs - Broon is PM

84

frank mcbride,

lusitania 07/07/2007 18:15:42

#115, AM2.

We're all familiar with your tactics. As they say, "A' fur coat an' nae knickers.".

85

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 07/07/2007 18:22:51

Talking will not stop the new type of war which is slowly developing over the globe, In military basics if you were to take a city there would be hundreds of casualties on your side. Now there is the walking/driving bomber one casualty but lots of deaths of your enemies. Look at the "successful" hits in other countries where those bombers have got right in amongst the "targets" then BOOM, ball bearings, nails, with the added mix of rotting animal parts to give a biological inpact as well as physical. The IRA won their war they now run the drugs and prostitution and are taking some significant political positions.

This next lot want a lot more, and the stiff upper lip of us coothy Scots is going to be pushed to the limit. Already tales of how the muslim community are being victimised in Britain are fueling more terrorists

You can call me racist if you like but deep down even you liberal folks know this time its serious. For goodness sake medical people allegedly trying to take out a terminal at Glasgow.

86

nell from falkirk,

07/07/2007 18:23:04

#121 Yes, if you want to be precise, you're right, Turkey is a democratic secular republic. Nonetheless, since 99% of its population are Muslims, it's not unreasonable to call it a Muslim nation.
Turks would call it a Muslim nation.

The religion though, has no say in the government of the country , ie it is a secular state, as established by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, and the vast majority of Turks are fiercely proud of this secular tradition. It's actually the reverse, the religion is under the control of the state, via a Ministry of Religion, just as education is under the aegis of the Ministry of Education and so on.
And that's without recourse to Wikipedia.

The point I was making for the benefit of Draco & WSmith et al who seem to equate Muslim nations solely with Saudi, was that because a nation, or rather its people, are Muslim, does not mean that they adhere to Sharia Law, and does not mean that the people there don't live in a free democracy.

The other things said in Wikipedia are quite true, and further bear out what I was saying about not generalising about "Muslim countries".

87

frank mcbride,

lusitania 07/07/2007 18:25:43

#111, meeep.
ROFL ;-)

88

frank mcbride,

lusitania 07/07/2007 18:40:07

#127, Fife Flyer.

Because you have your views does not necessarily make you a racist. The prejudiced demonisation, explicit or implicit, of other groups of people does.

To exclude dialogue is a fundamental error, in any route, to finding a solution.

No one, proposing dialogue and inclusion is advocating not taking necessary precautions or actions (when these are warranted). But, I think that provoking a culture of fear on both sides is profoundly dangerous.

89

meeep,

planet meepe 07/07/2007 18:43:37

#921edirbcm knarf

ecaep dna evol, ton hcum ni wohs ereh yadot
emahs eh!


http://www.beliefnet.com/story/147/story_14748_1.html


The service began a weekend of ceremonies marking the formal opening of a six-story community center attached to the East London Mosque, aimed at improving dialogue between Islam and other faiths and reducing unemployment in the East London, one of Britain's poorest areas and the home of many Muslim immigrants from Bangladesh.

"The history of Islam is the best testament to how different communities can live together in peace and harmony," Abdel Rahman bin Abdel Aziz al-Sudeis, the imam at the grand mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia, said in his sermon. "Muslims should exemplify the true image of Islam in their interaction with other communities and dispel any misconceptions in some parts of the media."

He praised Britain's Muslims for recently promoting peace and cooperation among the country's many different religions.

In April, the Muslim Council of Britain wrote to the country's 1,000 mosques, urging worshippers to remain nonviolent and to report any signs of terrorist activity to police. But the council also complained about widespread "Islamophobic propaganda" in the media, saying it has damaged Muslim relations with the larger community.

90

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 07/07/2007 18:50:44

terrorism = provoking a culture of fear, the trouble is being PC is destroying dialogue indeed it is being used against us, the Dutch have the correct answer .........no burka in the steet, if you speak in public you use dutch or english and that was the result of them loosing one Dutchman to an Islamic extremist.

91

jester,

Somewhere Else 07/07/2007 18:55:15

Any chance of that here? Kids these days can barely string a coherent sentence together.

92

Taking a Bigot's Money,

07/07/2007 19:32:19

#108 Try reading my posts Frank before you make statements that are not true.

All I said was that there is a problem with Islamic Radicals recruiting in Scotland - and to deny there was a problem was naive in the extreme.

But then I would not expect anything else from someone from the Trotskyite left .

93

meeep,

planet meepe 07/07/2007 19:53:07

xx xx nshja jakdj llsoopa msnu.hahh,nanana
yippieu difgeh-dgew snarkle yip donngle,...ghat

dommy ffret stomply dag friitn log bottels dimpy glut
snookel dom frtasl nixckl yap'yap'dip sozzles.


smoosh nip

94

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 07/07/2007 21:55:05

You people make me laugh. Irish Republicanism was born out of English occupation of Ireland. Ireland did not occupy England. Study the route cause of these problems before pontificating on the solutions.

95

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 07/07/2007 22:05:59

#71 Peter Get help quickly. you sound like a typical orange bigot.We are now living in the 21st century.Or havent you noticed? Maybe not, as you prepare to celebrate something that happened in Ireland in 1690. Scotland forever! away with the 17th century bigots,

96

Auckland Arab2,

07/07/2007 22:10:42

#140

And don't forget the planters either.

97

boudica,

Glasgow 07/07/2007 22:19:49

To all those commentators who accuse others of racism within this thread because they question the validity of the "Moderate Muslim" The 9/11 bombers were percieved to be polite ,quiet and studious young men before they committed their atrocities, the 7/7 bombers were percieved to be of the same ilk by co-workers and , as were all the recently sentenced Extremists also those now waiting for sentencing, some in here claim to have Moslem friends whom they know as polite , quiet and studious and are outraged at this latest attack and so have took to the streets , why didnt they take to the streets when the extremist preachers were shouting about destroying the UK and making us 2 Khaffirs " bend to the will of Allah ?? not even after 7/7 did they go onto the street and shout " Not in our Name " why has it taken them so long to take this step...I would advise you to go and research the meaning of the word " Taqiyya" ..And some said we should learn from History...It seems those that shout " Racism " if anyone contridicts them have not learnt anything at all from History...

98

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

07/07/2007 22:52:58

Boudica....

We have learnt from history just fine...

We remember what happened when decent Germans said nothing as Hitler and his Nazis demonised the Jews.

We are all too aware of what happened next.

Evil prevails when good men (women) do nothing.

We said NEVER AGAIN....and we meant it.

Good Scots will NOT stand silent as twisted, slippery, rascist bigots demonise and smear fellow Scots simply on the basis of their religion.

Question... AM, SMITHY etc....

Do you consider the Scottish Muslims to be Scottish?....as Scottish as you and I ?

Or are they somehow less Scottish than say a Protestant or Catholic Scot..... and therefor not worthy of the same consideration, protection and human rights afforded "real Scots"?

In otherwords, should they be singled out and placed under suspicion simply on account of their chosen religion..... yes.... as Hitler and his scum did to the German Jews.

NEVER AGAIN...... means any minority... not just Jewish ones.

99

The Fly Fifer,

07/07/2007 22:53:32

# 143 exactly ........ they were all nice guys (soon it may be nice pregnant women!!) ......... thus their effectiveness well said but until those moderates see bits of their friends being hosed off buildings they are unconvincible, there is racism there is PC and there is common sense ........

100

The Fly Fifer,

07/07/2007 23:03:05

Eric ........... I am struggling to see what the similarity is between peaceful, law abiding Jews being persecuted by Nazis and a concerned population in Scotland and the UK about not knowing if their doctor is bomber.

The minority is from a minority who say one thing in public and another in private ............

101

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 07/07/2007 23:08:22

Eric if folks say they are Scottish that means Scottish not putting on Pakistani colours when the MCC host a test match ................ it means speaking the Scottish language, maybe even learning the Scots mither tongue. It means becoming Scottish, leaving behind the female circuscision the arranged marriages.

Or do you approve of the way all that is dear to you will be replaced?

102

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 07/07/2007 23:17:56

AM2.... :-) ditto for me .............

103

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 07/07/2007 23:33:19

ridiculous ..........

104

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

07/07/2007 23:40:24

Yes Fife flyer...

And what about the Scottish Celtic fans with their Irish Flags, songs and colours.

I suppose you dont view them as Scottish either???

105

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

07/07/2007 23:44:07

A
nd I suppose you would expect the new Polish immigrants to stop supporting Poland, cease eating Polish pickled sausage and go for the deep fried mars bars.

Your "cricket test" is ludicrous.

106

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 07/07/2007 23:49:43

152 ......... in many previous posts I have openly abhorred the Irish flag issue at Parkhead ... so no issue there for me I agree they should be Scottish and act Scottish and either fly green and white flags and sing non sectarian songs so we agree there :-)

107

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

07/07/2007 23:51:21

My comparison with the Jews is valid.

They were singled out for special treatment because of their religion..... as you seek to have Scottish Muslims recieve special treatment... not as a result of anything THEY have DONE.... but merely because some foreign fanatics (who happen to share the same religion) commited a criminal act in Scotland.

Get real AM.

108

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 07/07/2007 23:53:58

You were talking about Fellow Scots I assume you were meaning they were Scottish ........... so if Scottish why put on Pakistani colours ? simple question. As for the Polish Immigrants they are here as Poles working doing jobs that lazy schemies jakeys skanky Scots feel to be below them so no let them support Poland and eat what they will :-)

109

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

07/07/2007 23:58:47

Are you a Fly Fifer... or a Fife Flyer.

I used to manage the Glasgow Comets Junior Ice Hockey Team. (under 12s)

Our visits to Kircaldy were always the toughest games in our division... which Fife invariably topped.

We generaly finished second or third depending on Murrayfields form from season to season.

Fife Flyers..... great team.

110

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 08/07/2007 00:00:46

155 not good enough Eric not even close no comparison with Jews is valid.

What is happening in the UK is that certain alleged Muslim or alleged Islamic extremists want us Christians to no be Christians AND also change the way of life we lead, admittedly a minority but imagine if those eight alleged terrorists had been 33% effective ? there would have been bits of FELLOW SCOTS decorating the walls and floors.

111

walter,

08/07/2007 00:05:02

#144
How can one Scot who demonises another Scot because of his religious believes be a racist they are both Scots.

112

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

08/07/2007 00:07:30

Well I lived in Canada for a number of years and used to frequent Toronto/Vancouver Rangers and Celtic clubs. Second, third generation Scottish Canadians.... Fanatical Team Canada hockey supporters...fanatical Scotland/Rangers/Celtic football supporters.

Canadian born and bred.... proud to support Scotland and wear the colours... but no less Canadian for all that.

Same happens in the States, Australia, NZ etc etc.

I have no problem with Scots of Irish descent celebrating their culture. Deosn't make them any less Scottish.... any more than Canadians of Scottish descent being somehow less Canadian becuase they wear a Scotland shirt during the World cup.

And ditto for Scots of Pakistani descent supporting Pakistan at cricket. :0

113

Buchanan,

California 08/07/2007 00:08:15

From Scotland On Sunday the latest news is
"Security sources have briefed senior politicians that the failed assaults of last weekend were most likely part of a "profoundly political campaign" to punish the UK for its part in the invasion and occupation of Iraq."

So rather than than this terrorism being driven
by short sighted bigoted options such as the
following from Islamic expert AM2
"Islamic terrorism has its roots in Islamic doctrine".
the driver is much more down to earth yet no
more justifiable i.e. an illegal war was waged on a
Muslim country and retaliation was likely a direct
effect of this. The bombers were not trying to
convert us but were retaliating for injustices
imposed on their people - still not justifiable by
any means, but at least it was preventable ,Iraq
should never have been invaded and occupied.
Scottish foreign policy would never have permitted such acts as the war criminals Bush & Blair have performed. The quicker we can detach ourselves
from the decaying British Empire the better.

Saor Alba

114

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

08/07/2007 00:10:48

159

Because the Scots smearing our Muslim community deosnt reallyaccept them as "true Scots".

Simple.

115

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

08/07/2007 00:29:22

AM

I can explain your aims..... spread suspicion and fear of the Scottish Muslim community.

I havn't a clue?

I first went to Iran aged 16. Lebanon, Iraq and Yemen the same year. Since then, many years in the Middle East.

I know a lot more than you think.

I also have nothing but respect for the vast majority of peaceloving Muslims..... as I did for the vast majority of Ulster Catholics/Protestants when I was in Ulster in the 70s.

Of course, lets remember the Protestant and Catholic communities of Ulster WERE producing a HUGE number of terrorists, and killing VAST numbers of innocent people.

And lets not conveniently forget that the Muslim community in Scotland has done, and is doing nothing of the sort.

By all means hunt down terrorists, Muslim or otherwise... but look in the right places. The Glasgow Airport attackers were foreign... and there is no record of radical Muslim extremism whatsoever within the Scottish Muslim community.

116

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

08/07/2007 00:34:54

AM,

Not all "Irish" terrorists were Irish. The vast majority were British.

The UVF, UDA, UFF, Red Hand Commandos etc etc were British Unionists. Murdering terrorists nonetheless.

Most of the Provos were N.I. Ulstermen, born and bred in Ulster and therefor, despite their loud vocal protestations, British.

117

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

08/07/2007 00:50:44

AM

Right and wrong.

Jihad has been around for many, many years... with different objectives and justifications.

However, recent illjudged British and US actions in Iraq and elsewhere has poured petrol on the Jihadi flames. Until these catastrophic errors of judgement by Bush and Blair, radicalisation of young British Muslims was minimal.

Young impressionable Muslims worldwide see these actions, rightly or wrongly , as an assualt on Islam and are easy pickings for the extremist recruitment sargeants.

There IS a direct link between rising levels of radicalisation of young Muslims and British / US actions in the middle east.

118

Buchanan,

California 08/07/2007 00:54:21

166. AM2

"support for or opposition to the Iraq War has no particular relevance."

Again from latest reports
"Security sources have briefed senior politicians that the failed assaults of last weekend were most likely part of a "profoundly political campaign" to punish the UK for its part in the invasion and occupation of Iraq."

Note political not religious !

If you truly believe the Iraq War has no relevance
you are naive beyond believe. You appear to believe
that Islam is inherently evil and by inference
those who adhere to that religion can not be trusted
and as per your own words
"It is only a matter of time before a Scottish-born and raised Muslim carries out a terrorist atrocity. "
You bring suspicion on the whole Scottish
Muslim community - given that they belong
to an inherently evil religion in your opinion. Just
was is your solution here ? I asked before
and you chose to ignore - is it to convert
them all to a more civilized religion or just
to ship them out a la Enoch Powell ?

Iraq is highly relevant despite anything you say -
Do you truly believe the massive daily killings
and destabilization & occupation of a country in the center of the middle east is not relevant or are you
truly that insular ?

Saor Alba

119

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

08/07/2007 00:56:15

170 AM

Why not..... is it not true?

You introduced the Irish terrorist issue in post 164...
so a response to your less than accurate claim that... and I quote...

"Irish terrorists were Irish - fact. That's not smearing all Irish people."

My response is valid. The people you refer to as Irish terrorists were in fact mostly NORTHERN Irish and therefor British. Fact.

120

walter,

08/07/2007 01:08:40

163
Because the Scots smearing our Muslim community deosnt reallyaccept them as "true Scots".

Simple.

Right so the fact that I have a distrust of muslims due to muslims trying to kill me if I am unluckily enough to be in a area they attack and I do not know what muslims will do this and what muslims won't that makes me a racist? it doesn't it means I do not know which muslims will carry out these atrocities so I am wary of them all.
You on the other hand are brandishing the word racist against those who do not agree with you as you wish to silence them and when you are questioned on this you come out with pathetic statements like the above.

121

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

08/07/2007 01:08:42

Am

To extract and quote verses of the Qur'an that suit your purpose, and to present them in isolation, completely devoid of context, is a long used, tried and tested technique of the slipperiest type of manipulator.

Ministers, Preachers, Rabbis and Mullahs have been doing this since organised religion was invented.

I have no time for, and no interst in such mischief.

122

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

08/07/2007 01:18:30

AM 174

"But the motive is to increase Islam's influence and thereby acquire converts."

Oh horror !!!

Hello !!!

The motive of ALL religions is to increase their influence and thereby acquire converts.

What do you think those Mormons are doing knocking on your door... or the Jehovahs Witnesses.

The Catholic missionaries all around the globe?

The VAST majority of Muslims are NOT interested in Jihad... oppose it, sometimes violently as in the case of the secularist Fatah against the Islamist Hamas.

Most Muslims, AM, want the same as you and I. Peace, security and the opportunity to persue their dreams.

As for the Jihadis.... just another bunch of terrorist with a thin and bogus justification.

123

Buchanan,

California 08/07/2007 01:23:01

178. AM2

"Who said anything about Islam being "inherently evil"?

I don't believe that anybody actually said that and neither did I say that anybody did. What
I stated was "You appear to believe
that Islam is inherently evil"

I'm just basing it on the myriad of quotes that
you posted on this board - seems a reasonable
interpretation to me of your believes. Based on your
quotes it even sounds pretty evil to me :)

"Islamic terrorism has its roots in Islamic doctrine"

"It is only a matter of time before a Scottish-born and raised Muslim carries out a terrorist atrocity"

"mandating violence against unbelievers."

"until they pay the Jizyawith willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Interesting that you ignored my points on Iraq.

124

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

08/07/2007 01:31:01

AM

Oh....I am so sorry if you dont think context is important.

......................???

125

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

08/07/2007 01:34:00

Fatah HAD a Jihad agend... and lots of people said a lot of things when under pressure.

Dont get me quoting Ian Paisley.

Fatah have recognised Israels right to exist.

126

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

08/07/2007 01:36:39

AM

"Goodnight"

First sensible thing you've said all night :-)

I'm off too............ nighty night.

127

Buchanan,

California 08/07/2007 01:39:09

184. AM2

"Didn't I answer your Iraq points via my reply to Eric?"

Nope - you rarely seem to answer questions from anybody.

Have a good nights sleep hope you don't have too
many nightmares about the evil Scottish Muslim boogeyman you have created for yourself. You must
have trouble sleeping still responding this time of
night. Also hope you can sleep with all these
innocent dead Iraq's on your conscience which
you just dismissed as having "no relevance".

128

,

08/07/2007 01:49:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 767969, Article id was mapped to record!
129

Paulbscot,

Scotland 08/07/2007 10:37:34

I welcome all muslims to scotland so long as they leave sharia law behind and do not privately have more in common with Wahhabism (Saudi firebrand islam) or the taliban than their liberal uk neighbours - ie Me. These strict and totalitarian theologies do not reflect Burn's thought and people who do privately or publicly hold these thoughts are certainly not Jock Tamson's Bairns.

Personaly, I'm intolerant of the intolerant and respect muslims in the same proportion as they respect gay rights, equal rights for women and other religions.
As regards Saudi Arabia, it practices religious apartheid yet feels justified in funding the building of mosques and islamic centres throughout the world. 90% of the Edinburgh mosque was funded by the Saudis and one of the largest mosques in Europe was funded and built near the Vatican in Rome. Can you imagine Italy banning all religions except catholicism and building a cathedral beside mecca. Nope, neither can I! I sometimes wonder if the Saudis are building an infrastructure for spreadiing extremism by sending over deranged imans who preach hatred and murder in their newly furbished temples.

Dear I am beginning to rant......but you get the gist....No to extremismists who take advantage of our generosity and liberal history and yes to muslims who can handle diversity and have respect for others.

130

boudica,

Glasgow 08/07/2007 15:23:32

Eric .... You state that there are simularities to the way the Nazi`s demonised the Jewish People to the way Islamists are treated today ...I beg to differ as it is the Islamist who have more in Common with the Nazi`s in the way they speak of Non Muslims and how they must all be destroyed and within Mosques the leaders sing a different tune from the one the chant outside " Islam is Peace "
Mohammed Naseem, chairman of the Birmingham Central Mosque (it is affiliated to the MCB), exemplifies Mr Husain's point. He insists that there is "no proof" that Islamic extremists were behind any of the terrorist attacks. "The official explanation of 7/7 does not make sense," Mr Naseem says. "The majority of Muslims don't accept the version that we've been presented with [by the Government]. Videos can be made and the pictures of people on train platforms don't prove anything. Why should we condemn Muslim extremists when we don't know who did it?"..It seems you have more in common with these radicals than you do with your fellow scots once again I ask you to research the words Taqiyya and Kitsman ..this maybe clear things up for you and as for Mr MacAskil and Alec Salmond ask them why they did not insist That the " Asians for Independance" slogan by the Muslim Block vote was not dropped ?????

131

David Ex-Pat,

08/07/2007 17:29:48

Will the SNP ever welcome our English cousins?

132

David Ex-Pat,

08/07/2007 17:42:11

"Throughout Scotland's history, people have come whether from Italy, Ireland or elsewhere."

So McKaskill what about the English, not worthy of a mention eh? But no the SNP are not racist? BTW, Has anyone ever heard the SNP EVER say ANYTHING in favour of Scotland's large Jewish community?

133

frank mcbride,

lusitania 08/07/2007 18:36:41

AM2.

As you,yourself, have stated; yourwriting is clear and unambiguous.

You, then, obviously know about explicit and implicit contextualisation. Correspondingly, explicit and implicit interpretation.

Knowing these, you then choose to incite by your particular use of the above strategies.

As I said in an earlier post, after you tried to dismiss my acusations of you, if you can justify your comments on this thread then, send them in the form of a letter, for print, to any media outlet of your chosing.
I can assure the posters on this, and any other thread that you will not take this action.

134

frank mcbride,

lusitania 08/07/2007 18:40:08

AM2.

When I look at the posts of posters who support your contentions I find a remarkable similarity in their content. I wonder why this should be?

135

frank mcbride,

lusitania 08/07/2007 18:41:41

I wonder how long it will be before my above post are removed or, when comments will be closed.

136

meeep.,

planet meepe 08/07/2007 20:47:02

@..@@@@@@@@@....@@
@@...@@@@@@@...@@@
@@@...@@@@@@...@@@
@@@....@@@......@@@@
@@@@...............@@@@
@@@......@@@......@@@
@@......@@@@@......@@
@......@@@@@@@......@
@....@@@@@@@@@....@


2MA smoosh nip

3.165 x -3.048 x -0.0818

137

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 08/07/2007 20:47:53

Frank why should you fear the removal of your posts, they bring a light hearted yet educational lift to the pages.

I fail to see what your real problem is though.

Do you deny that some Muslim extremists want to do some very serious harm to Christians ?

138

meeep.,

planet meepe 08/07/2007 21:19:52

Timothy McVeigh, convicted and executed for the worst act of domestic terrorism in United States history, became a radicalized member of the far right-wing in the early 1990s. With fellow army veteran Terry Nichols, McVeigh conspired to destroy the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City as a blow to a federal government that they saw as an evil force.


Their blow against the government they despised killed 168 people, eight of whom were federal agents, 19 were children, mostly at a daycare facility in the building, and the rest were ordinary office workers and citizens attending to normal business

139

meeep.,

planet meepe 08/07/2007 21:26:39

"If the Court please, I wish to use the words of Justice Brandeis dissenting in Olmstead to speak for me. He wrote, 'Our Government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example.'

"That's all I have.

Timothy McVeigh, August 14, 1997 ? just prior to being officially sentenced to death

140

meeep.,

planet meepe 08/07/2007 21:29:07

1. religious idealism as basis for personal and communal identity;
2. fundamentalists understand truth to be revealed and unified;
3. it is intentionally scandalous, (similar to Lawrence's point about language -- outsiders cannot understand it);
4. fundamentalists envision themselves as part of a cosmic struggle;
5. they seize on historical moments and reinterpret them in light of this cosmic struggle;
6. they demonize their opposition and are reactionary;
7. fundamentalists are selective in what parts of their tradition and heritage they stress;
8. they are led by males;
9. they envy modernist cultural hegemony and try to overturn the distribution of power.

The Fundamentalism Project

141

oder,

Scotland 08/07/2007 21:34:34

In newspaper and TV, Osama Saeed, of the Muslim Association of Great Britain, has said that,apart from reporting suspicious activity, the Muslim community can only make clear that there is no "theological justification" for terrorist attacks.

But the Koran commands Muslims to kill infidels. Is that not theological justification? Will the Muslim Association now issue a report that the Koran is wrong?

And if the reply is that it is out of context to read "kill" to mean "kill" or the killing verses were only applicable at an earlier time who decides what is in context or which verses are no longer applicable? If the killing verses were applicable only in the 7th century, why not the the other verses? Is it a pick-and-mix situation?

If the Koran is the clear immutable word of God, how can Osama Saeed and Osama Bin Laden read it so differently?. Or do they?

Bin Laden obeys the Koranic commands directly, the verses say "kill" and that's what he does. But Osama Saeed, and many others, apparently seem to have difficulty with simple comprehension.

For Osama Saeed "kill" doesn't mean "kill" but the impression is left that the disagreement with the Koran, and Bin Laden, is more political than theological.

142

meeep.,

planet meepe 08/07/2007 21:42:16

What about the three million Palestinians who live on the West Bank and Gaza? McAteer suggests the bulk of them could be cleansed from this God-given real estate and moved to some Arab country. Nothing can come between the Jews and their land.

In fact, many fundamentalists believe that when Prime Minister Rabin signed the Oslo accords and offered to trade land for peace, it was not only a mistake, it was a sin.

“They were going against the word of God. You cannot go against the word of God. And I believe that God stopped it ... by the things that happened.” says Arthur. She hints that God punished Rabin by assassinating him. “I think that God did not want that Oslo Accord to go throug

143

meeep.,

planet meepe 08/07/2007 21:43:57

What's the number one item on the agenda of the Christian Right? Abortion? School Prayer? No and No. Believe it or not, what's most important to a lot of conservative Christians is the Jewish State. Israel: Its size, its strength, and its survival. Why?

There is the alliance between America and Israel in the war on Islamic terror. But it goes deeper. For Christians who interpret the bible in a literal fashion, Israel has a crucial role to play in bringing on the Second Coming of Christ.

144

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 08/07/2007 22:46:32

Good stats AM2 but Frank seems to have gone, ........

145

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 08/07/2007 22:54:17

199 according to your thesis there can be no argument


 

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