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Sunday, 7th September 2008

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Trams are already on track to change the face of the Capital



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Property investors are snapping up sites to redevelop along the route, particularly at the stops and major interchanges, in anticipation of increasing numbers of passers-by, writes Linda Summerhayes.
YOU'D be forgiven for thinking the only impact Edinburgh's tramline has had on the city so far is to make life difficult for motorists. Drivers in the north-east of the Capital are already well used to cursing the trams as they attempt to avoid roadworks on Leith Walk.

Yet, loathe them or love them, they are starting to shape the city in more than the most obvious way. Although it is still more than two years until the first tram is due to run, savvy commercial property developers are already using them as a template for their investments. Snapping up properties along the route, particularly near the site of tram stops, they realise, can prove to be a canny buy.

"There are already significant developments," says Graham Bell, spokesman for the Edinburgh Chamber of Commerce. "The first thing we'll see in areas along the tram route is sites that are unoccupied or sub-standard taken over and that's already happening on Leith Walk and at Haymarket."

It is the major interchanges that have got the property developers most excited – Shandwick Place and Haymarket at the West End, as well as Elm Row and Picardy Place further east.

Tens of millions have been spent, or are about to be spent, transforming what were unremarkable properties into fashionable hotels, clubs and shops.

But there is also huge potential to the west of the city, as the link between the city centre and Edinburgh Airport takes in commercial sites at Ingliston, Gogarburn and Edinburgh Park. At Gogarburn, next to the Royal Bank of Scotland headquarters, the city council is using the promise of trams as a carrot to try to lure international companies to the area.

The tram line also takes in the Gyle shopping complex and its owners have said they plan to capitalise on the tram route with an expansion.

The pattern also continues in the East End and the tram stop, or transport interchange, at Elm Row was described as a "major factor" in the Fitzpatrick Hotel Group's decision to launch a new venture there.

Leading leisure tycoon Stefan King has already bought up property opposite the tram stop at Picardy Place where his nightspot GHQ opened last year.

And not one to miss a trick, he also recently snapped up a former casino at the West End, near another tram stop, as well as the Rutland Hotel.

Cameron Stott, director of commercial property experts Jones Lang LaSalle, says: "I think the trams are already starting to shape the city, especially around the transport interchanges.

"Around Edinburgh Park and also Haymarket and Waverley stations, where the trams will be converging with rail and bus routes as well, these are primary locations."

What's getting the developers excited is the possibility of making money because more people from further afield are visiting these areas. The success other cities have tasted is also adding to the buzz – Dublin's main shopping street reported a 25 per cent increase in trade after trams were introduced.

While the commercial hotspots around the tram stops, such as at the former Morrison Street goods yard, have already been snapped up, there are still sites ripe with potential along the length of the tram route.

"I think other developments will follow once people have a better understanding of the tram routes," says Mr Stott.

"The influence at points along the line of the tram is probably not really going to be felt significantly until it's up and running. That's when people will start to see pedestrian flows and where residential areas become more attractive because of the influence of the tram halts."

It is here where local businesses will thrive – as long as the areas around the tram stops are redeveloped so pavement cafes, small shops and market stalls can thrive. This is the vision of Edinburgh's design champion Sir Terry Farrell, who believes the city cannot be truly improved by the trams unless the public areas around the line are attractive.

Michael Apter, owner of the Paper Tiger stationery and gift outlet and chairman of the West End Association, agrees and says businesses are already thinking about how to make the most of the opportunity.

It is the aim of the association to promote the area between Queensferry Street and Manor Place as a community and they have branded their area as the West End Village.

"The tram stops are going to be delivering thousands of people to the city centre every day and it's inevitable the tram stops will become more of a hub," adds Mr Apter.

"Shandwick Place is already a big, big interchange and the trams will strengthen that hub in the city centre and reinforce the identity of the area."

Small traders along the route are of course more than aware of the construction work for the tramline.

As their businesses suffer because traffic and pedestrians are diverted away from them, the promise of future riches is no panacea.

However, the tram route has inspired new possibilities of huge investment in some parts of the city.

What is already clear is that Edinburgh's trams are going to change the landscape of the city in many more ways than simply bringing overhead cables and metal tracks back to the streets.


The full article contains 917 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Rv2!,

08/07/2008 11:22:56
Let's get it right,
Trams have already ruined Edinburgh.
2

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 11:42:46
#1, you're right. It's very sad.
3

Capital Boy,

08/07/2008 12:03:15
#1+2 yer free to leave anytime !!
4

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 12:07:36
"Trams are already on track to change the face of the Capital"


...for the worst.
5

,

08/07/2008 12:10:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

,

08/07/2008 12:12:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

Optimus Prime,

Cybertron 08/07/2008 12:14:39
BUILD IT AND PEOPLE WILL COME........
8

Hibernia,

08/07/2008 12:16:21
#6 there are lot of people that dont like and they either A) cant get into Edinburgh because of all the roadworks not just the trams or B) spend ages follwing the diversions signs trying to get out and just get lost
9

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 12:18:22
#7:

...and then they will see all the rows of empty properties that used to br thriving businesses, realise they can't drive or park anywhere and if they are not going from somewhere on a tram route, to somewhere on a tram route, it will take them ages, plus loads of faffing about to get there.

Then they will leave, never to return.
10

Liz,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 12:19:56
#6
Yes, excellent for anyone wanting to go from Ocean Terminal to the Gyle. For the rest of us we will end up paying for it when the bus services to anywhere else in the city are cut back to pay for the damned things.
11

,

08/07/2008 12:20:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

foz,

In his recession proof suit 08/07/2008 12:26:11
What a piece of propaganda rubbish. Most of the residents in Edinburgh have a brain. When you read tosh like this you feel like your living in some sort of communist timewarp in 1975. But then this is Scotland.
13

Euan,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 12:29:09
#1 and #4 hit the nail on the head.

The article, while bleating away about how trams the will be so good for millionaire investors, fails to mention the scores of hard working local people who's businesses are being systematically bled dry by this disgraceful project.

The perpetrators of this insane scheme will stop at nothing in order to try and fool people with their spin and lies into thinking that this tram line is actually worth the ridiculous sums of money being spent on it.

Well they can't fool me.
14

David55,

London 08/07/2008 12:34:56
The trams will be an excellent addition to the public transport in the city. I would imagine that people who have houses close to tram stops will benefit as they see the value of their properties rise.

I only wish that the Edinburgh Airport Rail Link has got the go ahead too.

15

James (1),

08/07/2008 12:36:21
Look they poo poo'd the Scottish Parliament as a waste of money in the beginning. We have gotten over it. So why not apply the same logic? It does not need to improve anything. Just keep spending the money.
Like #3 says you can always leave. Just like the businesses and shopping public that are doing just that.
People are creatures of habit. If they can park and shop elsewhere for free they will continue to do so.
Getting them to return will be the hard thing.
If you owned a shop would you open it in the centre of town?
16

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

08/07/2008 12:37:57
Peter you are disgusting. Your mother was a Radge and your Dog plays the Castanets.
17

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

08/07/2008 12:40:03
Euan, stop whinging and cheer up !! CHEER UP !

I two years time we will have the beginnings of a decent transport system in Edinburgh rather than a ton of buses. Any change requires work, you know that. Cheer up and dont be afraid of change. Your Mother was a radge and your father sailed the seven seas.
18

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 12:42:04
#16 The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

"Your Dog plays the Castanets."

Mario, he only plays the Castanets during the mating season.

19

Foo,

ejinbara 08/07/2008 12:46:22
Trams will be ace and a real asset to the city.
20

20something,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 12:49:13
This is great news! More investment. Be happy people.
21

Bob 2,

08/07/2008 12:49:47
no 13 Euan

so property prices will go even Higher, Isn't part of the current problem in the housing and lending market.

Pricing "locals" out of the local market

1st time buyers will be a rare bread shorlty.

You can here it on one of those many Home Programmes, thie 2 Cupboard flat is only £250,000

22

David55,

London 08/07/2008 12:50:49
#17 I agree. It will be sad to see the giant bus park (Princes Street) go but that's progress for you.
23

Euan,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 12:52:09
I'm perfectly cheery thanks Mario and I'm certainly not afraid of change.

Thing is, when 'change', as you put it, swallows up £600 million+ of valuable taxpayers money for little or no return that makes me angry, not miserable.

Just for the record, I think your mother probably worked her way around Britain's funfair circuit for a few years.

And your father...
24

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 12:53:15
Mario (17) - I don't follow your logic. How does jeopardising Lothian Buses' services and ability to attract new customers be "the beginning of a decent transport system"?

The tram is expected to serve 6% of Edinburgh's population and is heavily reliant on the Waterfront development for passengers. With the current economic situation, this development has not only stalled but I understand repossessions there have dramatically increased over recent weeks.

Any delay in the development will be at the expense of Lothian Buses who will take steps to shore up the losses, either by reducing services and/or frequencies and/or increasing ticket prices. How can this be a good thing for public transport? Why do you think that increased public transport fares and reduced services will actually attract public transport usage?

25

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 12:55:44
David (22) - What makes you think that the tram is going to replace buses on Princes Street to any discernible extent?

This is another piece of misinformation but is not substantiated by Lothian Buses themselves. Go and ask them.

26

Curious Yellow,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 13:00:14
#3 and others - "you can always leave." How very grown up. There are many people living outwith the city who work in the centre. It is already difficult enough to find reasonable parking, and the additional road works - not just those linked to the trams, because they are everywhere - are making it more and more difficult. When big name companies run by big walleted executives can't get their staff and/or their clients into their big offices in the city centre, they'll take them elsewhere. Big, multi-nationals leaving lock stock and barrell and re-locating to a town/city that wants them to be there. We already have large shopping malls outside the centre, and that is bleeding the smaller city centre stores dry. No-one can get to them to do their shopping, so they too will go elsewhere. The trams will do absolutely nothing for the benefit of edinburgh or its people. #17 talks about "the beginnings of a decent transport system" - you think it's bad now? Just wait.........
27

Euan,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 13:04:00
David(22)

The 'bus park' as you put it will still be there.

Just how exactly is someone who wishes to go from say Bruntsfield to their work on the other side of town and who uses the #11 bus going to benefit from the trams?

The #11 will continue to use Princes St together with every other bus which currently uses it as part of their route.

It is a total myth that the trams will reduce traffic on Princes St, a total myth.

28

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

08/07/2008 13:05:04
Basically I'm not getting involved. If you arent convinced nothing I can say can convince you. I do know that once they are up and running you will be perfectly happy and you obviously have no idea how much a large infrastructure project costs.

Now where was I.

26 you are talking complete rubbish. There are no big multinationals in the middle of edinburgh. Microsoft just committed knowing fine well the tram work was coming.
29

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 13:05:05
#24 Sarah B

"The tram is expected to serve 6% of Edinburgh's population and is heavily reliant on the Waterfront development for passengers."

Sarah, I am sure you are right, however, the trams won't get much business from the Waterfront's inhabitants, as these will almost certainly be the BMW/Merc brigade who won't use public transport (ever).

That leaves Leith Walk, Princes Street, ect as passenger pickup points, but so few stopping places exist along the whole track that I doubt they will gather many passengers from other sources along the route.

This project is destined to become a big white elephant and I personally cannot wait for it to fail.

30

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

08/07/2008 13:06:29
how many "dramatic reposessions" are we talking about sarah or are you just making s*it up ?

31

20something,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 13:07:47
This is so over the top. They're trams! An addition and improvement to our public transport network.

17 - "you think it's bad now? Just wait........."

Wait for what? The trams aren't going to grab you by the feet and drag you into the Forth, are they?

Get over it!
32

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

08/07/2008 13:08:08
24 Its called transition Sarah. Any fool can see that.
33

20something,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 13:08:52
17 = 26 in case you didn't know.

Lalala.
34

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

08/07/2008 13:09:25
I think most of the objectors are perfect examples of the great edinburgh habit of sitting on their ass, over analysing things they object to and bloody sh*t scared of change.

It's not clever you know.
35

Foo,

ejinbara 08/07/2008 13:16:44
Thank you #34, got it all in a perfectly formed wee nutshell.
36

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 13:21:38
Mario (32) - Actually, I appear to be one of the very few contributors on tram articles who has actually bothered to read the supporting documentation to the scheme and I am afraid I still do not see how decreasing bus services/frequencies and increasing fares on buses and trams will improve public transport usage (I have yet to meet anyone involved in the transport industry who believes this to be the key to increasing public transport usage). Being the "fools" that you think we are, I would obviously appreciate the benefit of your superior expertise and a proper answer.

Unfortunately, my source for the rise in repossessions is a local surveyor involved in that area. However, I am sure you read the Scotland on Sunday article two weeks ago discussing the downturn in Waterfront developments in the UK and citing the case of the Waterfront Edinburgh properties which recently went to auction and sold for a fraction of the price of a similar new property in the same place.
37

fresian,

dubai 08/07/2008 13:23:23
I bet Jenny didn't realise that Selfish Property Developers would be set to make a killing out of her pet scheme.

Peter, No29, A great white elephant? is that an african or arctic elephant
38

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

08/07/2008 13:26:50
Sarah , I dont go into the minutae , see my earlier comments about over analysing things.

I have however lived and worked in places where large transport project have been undertaken and I agree that they are a pain whilst the work is undetaken. However once they are out the way people are generally happy.

If you have followed this for any length of time you will know that there is a daily tram whinge in this newspaper. Only two and a bit years ago eh ? Save yourself the grief.
39

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

08/07/2008 13:27:26
"Only two and a bit years to go"
40

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

08/07/2008 13:28:53
I think you have to ask yourself what your prime motivation is for wanting this scheme to fail sarah. I'm sure you know you will find data to back up your claims regardless of which side of the fence you are on.

Whats your motivation ?
41

Foo,

ejinbara 08/07/2008 13:29:26
#36 - Its funny because you get your knickers in a twist, and yet there's nada you can do.
42

I love to eat Sellotape,

08/07/2008 13:30:39
"The trams aren't going to grab you by the feet and drag you into the Forth, are they?"

Well, that would be kind of nice.

43

David55,

London 08/07/2008 13:32:42
If the giant bus park on Princes Street is still going to be there, that will be disappointing.
The council really need to sort that out. Before the council stopped cars entering Princes Street,
the cars broke up the buses. Now a giant bus park develops. On my last trip on a bus, the guy across
from me was meowing, in between shouting at the top of his voice "I need ma methodone!". That wasn't
a particularly pleasant journey. If the tram gets me along Princes Street more quickly, i'm all for it.
44

Bob 2,

08/07/2008 13:34:57
28 The Genuine Mario Antoinette,..... There are no big multinationals in the middle of edinburgh. Microsoft just committed knowing fine well the tram work was coming

MICROSOFT... Micro who ?, aren't they one of the BIGGEST MULTINATIONALS in the WORLD.

But you are right, everyone has moved to the West of Edinburgh...with logically all the Housing being built in North Leith.....the other side of Town.... Common Sense never prevails in Edinburgh.. Forward Planning or what !
45

David55,

London 08/07/2008 13:35:55
If the complaints about roadworks are to be believed the tram system works should be leading to increased public transport usage (trains, buses) now. Therefore the trams are already doing their job of getting people out their cars and they aren't even in service yet.
46

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 13:36:03
Mario (38) - if you do not read the minutiae, then how can you be so confident in your support of the scheme?

What is worrying about the Edinburgh tram project is that it is, to my knowledge, the only one in the UK to have used the city's major bus service provider as a kind of guarantor and to have expected that bus company to mop up the losses sustained by the trams.

In continuing to support the tram scheme, in the face of unhealthy and uncertain economic forecasts, is to support the consequent likely downturn in Lothian Buses' business and public transport usage in Edinburgh but, of course, you would only know that if you read the minutiae.
47

Euan,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 13:36:18
#38, Mario

Come on Man, don't contradict yourself, you LOVE tram whingeing just as much as the next person.

It's just that you conveniently seem to forget which side you're on all the time.

You know full well Sarah B's comments are probably the most constructive and informative of any person who posts on the trams.

And I bet you secretly know that this tram line is fast turning into Scotland's national disgrace as well.




48

Bob 2,

08/07/2008 13:36:22
david 55

nice to see the old car driver reply, Car drivers never see themselves as part of the congestion, just everyone else !
49

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 13:41:25
David (43) - As far as buses getting you along Princes Street quicker is concerned, that remains to be seen.

It was previously stated that the business case for the tram required that it be segregated from other road traffic and given priority at junctions. However, I understand from TIE that, where roads are too narrow, the tram will have to share roadspace with the buses (as it would have required the narrowing of pavements on Princes Street). Quite where that leaves the business case, I do not know but then that does not seem to matter much.
50

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 13:43:16
Euan (47) - Thank you.
51

Foo,

ejinbara 08/07/2008 13:43:39
#46 - All very facinating but at the end of the day, all your assertions of doom are based on one thing, your opinion of what will happen in the future. And how can you possible know that? You can't.

The facts remain that in every other European city, where trams have been introduced, there was moaning and bleating likes yours in opposition, and upon arrival they have proved themselves to be a complete success.

So stand aside as progress sweeps past you and your kind!
52

David55,

London 08/07/2008 13:46:02
Bob 2 - My car is sitting rusting in a car park. I get the train, tube or bus in London. When I come back to Edinburgh, I'll probably return to using a car to get around as the public transport in Edinburgh is poor in relation to London (although, it's good in relation to the rest of Scotland).

I do recall that the roadworks were a major pain in Edinburgh and that was before the tram works started. However, it's hard to build anything in a city centre without a bit of disruption.
53

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

08/07/2008 13:47:47
euan and sarah respect to both of you where its due, but ive only ever been on the side of the trams.

Do either of you get out much ? I mean out of Scotland ? In the big world where we already have such things ?
54

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

08/07/2008 13:49:51
Sarahs comments ARENT constructive Euan, not in the least. NOW , to be honest I dont trust our Sicily of The North councillors much either but i feel any objections at this stage are jsut going to hamper things. If there is any truth in this story , investment is already starting to happen along the tram line. Good thing or a bad thing ?

I ask again , whats your motivation ?
55

Euan,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 13:50:19
#51

Another classic example of comparing Edinburgh to 'every other European city', a comparison which is completely incorrect.

The layout of Edinburgh is completely unsuitable to accommodate a tram network as well as all the other vehicles which use the roads in this City every day.

So the 'facts' you talk about are complete nonsense.


56

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 13:53:31
Foo (46) - You are quite correct. I can't know what will happen in the future. However, I can ask what provisions have been made to safeguard buses in Edinburgh and to be appalled to discover that there are none.

Likewise, you cannot know that I am not right and whilst I am quite happy to discuss the relative differences in designing, promoting and financing European tram schemes in Europe and the UK, I am not sure that your mind is sufficiently open to learn from the debate.

You think a tramline to a property development that is not yet build is "progress". I see it as a risk to our very successful bus company and do not regard that as progress. It seems we shall have to agree to disagree.



57

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

08/07/2008 13:55:09
55 thats complete nonsense Eaun. Theres a lot of European cities with far narrower streets than edinburgh, so please tell me

A) Why you are such a miserable sod
B) How the trams wont get down the wee roads.

58

Euan,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 13:55:09
My motivation Mario is to see public money spent wisely and correctly, not poured down the drain in order to satisfy the twisted visions of certain councillors.

And your talk of investment on the tram line just now pales into insignificance when we are seeing long-running local businesses being forced to close their doors due to a lack of trade as a direct result of the construction of the tram line.

This to me is the most insulting aspect of the trams, and something that no-one seems to give a damn about.


59

David55,

London 08/07/2008 13:55:19
#55 I believe that Edinburgh has already accommodated a tram network in the not so distant past. So hopefully Edinburgh can accommodate this new system too.
60

Euan,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 13:55:56
Oooohhh, getting the insults going again Mario, tut tut..
61

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

08/07/2008 13:55:58
58 I repeat you dont get out much and you actually seem to think that 600 Million is a lot of money.

It's not. Not for something like this.
62

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

08/07/2008 13:56:25
well you're kinda useless mate. sorry but, surely you can work things out.
63

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 13:57:14
Mario (54) - And you think your comments are constructive? You admit that you have no detailed knowledge of the project and you seem to prefer to argue by insulting people and questioning their motives.

My motive is to protect the bus service upon which the vast majority of residents rely. What's yours?
64

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

08/07/2008 13:58:38
Lets say you are right sarah. Are you now proposing that we drop the whole tram project ?

Seriuosly ? IS that what you propose ?
65

Euan,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 13:59:58
#64

Thats what I propose.
66

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

08/07/2008 14:02:16
65 Then good luck to you both but assuming you are both reasonably intelligent you must know thats aint going to happen.

Im heading off now, sorry for the half insults but surely you must now you cant stop this.
67

Dragonlord,

08/07/2008 14:04:04
61# 600 million is not a lot of money? I would love to see your wage packet. Perhaps you could promise to pay any short fall, so that council tax rises won't be needed?
This trainset will ruin the city, no-one has yet done an artist's impression with all the wires on show. How strange is that? It proves what we have been saying all along, tram wires are ugly, and will ruin any tourist's pictures of the castle.
68

David55,

London 08/07/2008 14:06:39
#65. How much money has been spent on the design of this tram system even before taking into account the cost of construction works? I remember colleagues carrying out the design as far back as 2002 and consultants ain't cheap.

Dropping the project right now would be a huge waste of money. At least when the trams are in you will see something tangible for your hard earned taxes.

Stopping a multi-million pound construction project, after you've committed to go ahead, is not a good idea. The contractors and design team members would all make claims against the council and the end result would be a huge loss of taxpayers cash for no good reason.
69

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 14:07:06
Mario (64) - The decision to proceed with the first phase has clearly been made and I would prefer to see whether it comes in on budget and how it affects our public transport system (particularly bus services) before a commitment is made to any other phase. When the stakes for Lothian Buses and transport in Edinburgh generally are so high, that seems only sensible to me.
70

David55,

London 08/07/2008 14:15:52
#69 - Is all of route 1a being constructed in the first phase?

http://www.tramtime.com/tramhovermap.html
71

Foo,

ejinbara 08/07/2008 14:16:09
#69 *snigger* - "I am not sure that your mind is sufficiently open to learn from the debate". Wrong. In fact I quite agree with you, lets see how things go with the initial phase.

But really, most of those against are advocating the scrapping of the project! How much to put things back in place? How much lost?

Edinburgh had trams before, they ran (out as far as Whitecraig, not bad for something that has no chance Euan), so I fail to see why, with improved technology they cannot run today?

72

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 14:20:04
David (70) - Yes, that's the plan on the assumption that the costs do not exceed £545m.
73

Euan,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 14:20:22
#71

Simple: Lack of funds and a complete lack of space.
74

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 14:20:47
#15:

James,

There are some big differences between the parliament building and the trams:-

1. The parliament building is confined to one, fairly small site on the outskirts of the city. The trams will be present on most of the main arterials through the city.

2. The parliament causes no congestion whatsoever. The trams will cause untold congestion.

3. The parliament does not affect main transport routes. The trams will.

4. The parliament does not get stuck on Leith Walk when it snows, causing yet more congestion and inconvenience. The trams will do.

5. The parliament was built on a piece of land where there was room to build it. The trams will be built on space created by pushing everything else out of the way, regardless of how long it's been there or how important it is.

6. If you don't want to go to the parliament, you need not. The trams will be in your way where ever you go.

The main problem with the parliament was the spiralling cost. This was due in no small part to the fact that politicians got involved where engineers, architects and builders should have been given a free reign. It was also due to gross under-estimation of the cost in order to get the project approved.

Do you honestly think that exactly the same is not going to happen with the trams? If you do, then you are kidding yourself.
75

Optimus Prime,

Cybertron 08/07/2008 14:21:39
EUAN

#55 "The layout of Edinburgh is completely unsuitable to accommodate a tram network"

So how the hell did we accomodate one in the past....!!

You are a typical example of a status quo, scared of change, anti council citizen who cannot see the wood for the trees. Did it every occur to you that the many thousands of dedicated professionals who have or are working on this job might actually know what they are doing.

The Tram will be the best thing to happen to this city since the construction of the New Town, mark my words.....mind you Euan, you'd probably have thought that was a waste of money as well!!
76

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 14:23:03
Mario (66) - Your apology for your "half insults" is half accepted. After all, you may think me a "fool", but at least I can spell "minutiae".

Please don't do it again: I bite back.
77

David55,

London 08/07/2008 14:27:55
#72 - Local and central government are not renowned for getting projects completed to cost and on time.

Personally I think that a rail link from the airport into Edinburgh Waverley would have been much more beneficial for the city. However, as usual the politicians know best. The bus services in Edinburgh were good (outside of rush hour) so I didn't really see the need for a tram system.
78

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 14:29:25
#68:

"...At least when the trams are in you will see something tangible for your hard earned taxes."

Too bloody right we will! Every single major road in Edinburgh will be blocked up, constricted or simply no go entirely.

It would be cheaper (and far better for Edinburgh) to cancel the whole thing now. By the time this project reaches its conclusion, it will likely cost 20-30 times what they are quoting now---and expect plenty of costs to be hidden too.

They have ripped up all the roads and replaced plenty of aging gas mains, sewers and water mains, which probably needed to be done in any case.

Right guys, the joke's over. Fill the holes in, tarmac the roads and re-open them. Let's here no more about building a rediculous train set.
79

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 14:30:28
#37 fresian,dubai 08/07/2008 13:23:23

"Peter, No29, A great white elephant? is that an african or arctic elephant"

With such a retrograde step backwards to installing such a primitive system as Trams, perhaps I should have said Mastodon, or Hairy Mammoth. That OK Fresian?

80

Annoyingboi,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 14:34:53
More spin from the EEN when anyone with any brain cells knows that the trams are placing Edinburgh into even more of a decline than the weak economy has!

#3 - Perhaps they won't leave but thousands are on the way out of Edinburgh. The Poles are leaving in their droves, the hotels and restaurants are paying off staff as there are less money around. The Financial Services giants are not recruiting. Look out for the next census on the Edinburgh population - we have reached our peak and the population is once again moving into decline, as it has done many times before.
81

Euan,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 14:35:14
#75

Firstly, I'm not scared of change.

Secondly, the reason that trams are unsuitable for Edinburgh is that the rest of the City is already served by a world-class, flexible bus service. Why on EARTH would we want to try and squeeze trams down these already well-used transportation routes?!

I'm fully aware that there are many fully qualified professionals working on the trams and that none of my criticism of this project is directed against the contractors.

You are clearly one of the minority of people who have been hoodwinked into thinking the tram line is a good thing when it's nothing more than a monumental waste of Scottish taxpayers money.

And no, the New Town was not a waste of money.

Also, well said #78, very well said.
82

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 14:35:32
David (77) - I agree with all you say but would add:

1. I do not understand how TIE can be claiming that 95% of costs are now "fixed" when there was (and, to my knowledge, still is) no approved final detailed design. You will recall this was the major source of cost overruns on the Holyrood building.

2. Lothian Buses were never asked for their ideas on how to improve public transport in Edinburgh and, indeed, they have recently confirmed that their existing service could have been reviewed to accommodate the (then) anticipated population increase. This would have required substantial investment and possible additional traffic management measures but, the point is, this option was simply not considered because, as you say, "the politicians know best".

Despite my criticisms, I am not "anti-tram". I just do not consider that this project is robust or is likely to achieve the benefits being claimed.
83

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 14:37:28
#75:

"So how the hell did we accomodate one in the past....!!"

The one in the past only went along Leith Walk and Princes Street. They were a lot smaller than the ones proposed now and were powered by moving cables under the road. As such, they were more or less immune to weather.

They were removed in the 1950s when there was nowhere near the amount of vehicular traffic on our roads.

The situation is completely different nowadays and the proposals in their entirety will block up most of the major through routes in Edinburgh. This project is anti-car in the extreme and is without precident in terms of downright pig-headed stupidity.

They MUST cancel it NOW.
84

David55,

London 08/07/2008 14:37:52
#78 Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head - Embrace your inner tree hugger and get out your car. Use the nice shiney new tram and the existing bus network. That way the congestion won't be a problem.
85

Euan,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 14:39:25
#84

You've got it all wrong man, all wrong...
86

Linda,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 14:46:02
Gullible journalist has swallowed TIE's PR puff.
What about all the businesses that are closing along the route?

Elsewhere we read about Lothian buses problems, this will only get worse as what money there is will have to bail out the Trams annual deficit in first instance.
87

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 14:50:41
Sorry, the one in the past was actually more extensive than just princes street and leith walk, but the other things I say still stand. For a start, years ago, trams would interact with other traffic. Now they plan to build an excusive "tramway" and exclude al other traffic---a sure recipe for congestion.
88

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 14:52:19
And what inner tree hugger would that be David55?
89

Foo,

08/07/2008 14:53:16
#83, You missed the part where the trams were carrying 16 million people a month in the 40's in Edinburgh.

And the trams were clearly not confined to Leith Walk and Princes Street as you say, that's a lie.

http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/1_edin_t_map/1_edinburgh_transport_maps_-_trams_1932_0_whole_map.htm
90

David55,

London 08/07/2008 15:02:52
#82 - Sarah - I work for a consultant. In the consultant's report(s) there will be loads of "cover yourself" caveats. They don't know what they will find when they start digging up large expanses of the city. There is no way the project will come in on budget. I'm rather surprised that they don't have a detailed design. I would have thought this had been done unless the contractor is taking the scheme on to detailed design. Hopefully the performance (scheme) design is quite well progressed.


91

Edinburgh 100,

Musselburgh 08/07/2008 15:04:26
So it would appear according to the article that TIE have created a way of bucking the economic slow down. We have the credit crunch, banks wont lend, business are already noticing a fall in demand, people cant get morgages, the price of food and fuel is soaring, but according to the article above none of this is effecting Edinburgh, What B~~~~~~~ks. Every statement given by TIE is that it is all lovely and rosie in the garden, again what B~~~~~~~~~ks
92

David55,

London 08/07/2008 15:06:03
#88 - Maybe you haven't got one.
93

Mr H 2u,

Embra 08/07/2008 15:33:33
Come on now. Half a billion pounds is a bargain for a fancy No 22 bus. Stop moanin'.
94

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 15:35:37
David (90) - TIE do have a detailed design but I don't think it has yet been approved and were only a fortnight ago holding public exhibitions to display the drawings.

It must now be well over a year since the infrastructure and vehicle tenders were invited and these were signed only last month. The utility diversions contractors were appointed in October 2006 and these works have been taking place since last year.

In these circumstances, as a consultant, would you say that it is credible that costs can be "95% fixed"?

95

Statsman,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 15:40:57
This is nothing more than an outrageous puff piece. Is the EEN now taking direct orders from TIE spin doctors?
96

Save Portobello Park,

Duddingston 08/07/2008 16:00:56
Euan you say that "My motivation Mario is to see public money spent wisely and correctly, not poured down the drain in order to satisfy the twisted visions of certain councillors."

Every single councillor voted for the trams, with only one exception. Which "certain" councillors do you mean?