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The road that divides two peoples

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Published Date: 20 November 2007
IN THE valley beneath an impoverished town in the Judean desert hills near Jerusalem lies the latest innovation in Israel's 40-year occupation of the West Bank: a motorway with a 16ft-high wall in the middle to separate Israeli and Palestinian traffic.
Palestinians say it is apartheid South Africa transplanted to the West Bank, while the liberal Israeli Haaretz newspaper mockingly calls it a "binational ethnic separation highway". Israeli officials say the road will benefit Palestinians and that the apartheid comparison is "rubbish".

The road, built on land expropriated by Israel from Anata residents, is nearing completion at a sensitive time in Middle East diplomacy, with Israeli and Palestinian leaders readying for a US-brokered peace conference in Annapolis, Maryland, later this month.

It is situated on a crucial piece of land, adjoining an area known as E1 in which Israel hopes to build a huge expansion to the sprawling Maale Adumim settlement. Doing so will cut the West Bank in half and deprive the Palestinians of territorial contiguity for their future state.

"I don't see anything positive coming from Annapolis, I see settlements expanding at the expense of the non-expansion of Palestinian towns," said Anata's mayor, Mohammed Allan. He added that, along with a section of the West Bank separation barrier that already cuts Anata off from Jerusalem, the new road "completely closes the town in all directions and makes it a ghetto".

The Israeli side of the new road, under the supervision of the Israeli transport ministry, will provide Jewish settlers in the West Bank with easy access to Israel's capital in Jerusalem and Israel's hinterland.

The Palestinian side, under the control of the Israeli army, will enable Palestinians to travel from the north to the south of the West Bank, but will have no exits for accessing Jerusalem, traditionally the major Palestinian economic centre, in addition to its nationalist and religious resonance.

But Israel believes the 53ft-wide road provides "transportational contiguity" to the Palestinians and that it should therefore not be required by the international community to relinquish sufficient territory to enable a viable Palestinian state.

"The idea is to create a route going from one part of Palestinian territory to another without passing Israeli roadblocks," said Mark Regev, a spokesman for the Israeli foreign ministry. "This is not a perfect and beautiful solution, but it is workable and provides movement and access for Palestinians," he said, adding that it was decided to use just one divided road rather than two routes "because it is quicker, more efficient, and saves money".

Mahdi Abdul-Hadi, the director of the Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of International Affairs termed the road "a copy of the old apartheid system in South Africa, of how South Africa succeeded in separating two entities and two societies. The implementation of this road will mean that Palestinians are totally cut off from the Old City of Jerusalem, and separated from each other, while Israelis [in the West Bank] are given clear, safe, ongoing connections with Israel in terms of society and neighbourhoods".

Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, yesterday met David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, to discuss preparations for the Annapolis summit. The Israeli cabinet approved the release of 441 Palestinian prisoners in advance of the summit. The Palestinian Authority had asked that 2,000 releases be approved.

BLAIR'S FOUR PEACE PROJECTS

THE Middle East envoy, Tony Blair, gave details yesterday of four international projects aimed at bolstering the Palestinian economy as part of efforts to end the conflict with Israel.

Flanked by the Palestinian prime minister and Israeli defence minister, he said the projects were integral to peace efforts.

One of the schemes, which is funded by the World Bank, is to improve sewerage in the Gaza Strip. It has been approved by Israel, despite the area being what it calls an "enemy entity" that is controlled by Hamas.

"It's not a substitute in any way for the politics, for the work that will go on in Annapolis," Mr Blair said of next week's Middle East peace conference. "It will not by itself transform the future. But it is a strong beginning for a critical part of this process."

Mr Blair said work could begin on creating industrial and commercial zones in the West Bank cities of Jericho and Hebron, largely funded by Japan and Turkey, and improving tourist access and facilities at Bethlehem.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 19 November 2007 10:56 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Middle East conflict
 
1

Conan,

Moffat 20/11/2007 01:27:31

The wall is an excellent idea that is mutually beneficial to the residents on both sides - too bad it didn't exist 30 years ago; a lot of trouble could have been avoided and a lot of lives might not have been lost or ruined on either side.

2

Grim Reaper,

20/11/2007 02:12:18

#1 Conan: I agree. The wall may look ugly but not as ugly as dead bodies, both Israeli and Palestinian.

3

,

20/11/2007 02:13:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 20/11/2007 02:25:57

Israeli Arabs credit fence for newfound prosperity
Matthew Gutman Jun. 17, 2004

The West Bank security fence has gained some unlikely enthusiasts: the leaders of Israel's Islamic Movement.

Since the fence's completion in their areas last August, many Arab communities – especially those bordering Palestinian villages – have enjoyed a spike in both security and economic activity, as Arabs who once hauled back millions of shekels worth of wares from Jenin now shop locally.

"God be blessed, the fence ended the parade of terrorists through this city and gave us an economic boom and increased security," says Umm el-Fahm City Manager Tawfiq Karaman.

Until the completion of the fence outside Umm el-Fahm 10 months ago, locals in this city of 42,000, northwest of Jenin, had complained that Palestinians casually filtering through from the territories had harassed schoolgirls, stolen cars, and even snatched laundry.

"They stole from us as they did from the rest of Israelis," says Karaman.

Worse yet, they stamped Umm el-Fahm as a launching pad for suicide bombers. Israeli checkpoints often blocked Umm el-Fahm's streets, and border policemen patrolled the city on a regular basis, hoping to pick up illegal Palestinian workers – or terrorists.

Because of its political sensitivity, the issue of the fence is a contentious one here. A few months ago, local Islamic Movement leaders skewered Umm el-Fahm Mayor Sheikh Abdel Rahman Mahajaneh for declaring that the fence had actually benefited his community. He was accused of collaborating with Israel; some branded him a "traitor" for abandoning his Palestinian brethren.

"It appears that telling the truth might not be the safest thing for a politician to say around here," Karaman says.

the rest
http://www.jpost.com/ser

5

Nuke EmAll,

20/11/2007 04:38:49

"Palestinians casually filtering through from the territories had harassed schoolgirls, stolen cars, and even snatched laundry. "

My, how would the reaction have been had they bombed nuclear power station in sovereign countries, bombed and invaded the Lebanon (how many times, now?).


"....and even snatched laundry"....Gosh, whit next?

6

James Donald,

Croix d'Torfin 20/11/2007 06:37:00

"binational ethnic separation highway" - quite. "Israeli officials say the road will benefit Palestinians and that the apartheid comparison is "rubbish"" - Sounds about as convincing as the East Germans calling the Berlin Wall the "Anti-Fascist Protection Barrier".

7

Paul Voltaire,

20/11/2007 08:25:28

The Jewish people gained their own state after World War II largely due to international sympathy at the racism they had suffered under the Nazis.
Nowadays, racism is rampant in Israel and it is the former victims who are now the perpetrators.
I find that rather appalling.

8

Number 6,

Germany 20/11/2007 09:37:16

As more millions are about to be pumped into the West-Bank Israel must be told "NO more over the top attacks on civilian areas, it's against international law and is about the most cowardly act an aggressor can commit . This is an American tactic so the warning will have to come from France.

The west spent billions rebuilding the Lebanon only for the Israelis to destroy it in their recent rampage through the region Also lets see if the israleis can
force themselves to stop killing palistinians during these peace talks about to get under way.

9

Lynne,

USA.. 20/11/2007 12:31:22

Looks like the anti-Israel crowd didn't take long. A wall is there for a reason..Israel is ready to live in peace...it always has been. The Palestinians are the ones who become suicide bombers, who kill each other in the streets, who maim and torture each other.
That wall protects the Israelis...something you seem not capable of understanding.
and James Donald...if you want a definition of apartheid state...look to the Sudan, Dafar, Iran Saudi Arabia, and Egypt..
Arabs DO go to Israeli Schools,they also get the best medical care in the world. Black Jews walk through the streets of Israel...Apartheid...I think not.

10

James Donald,

Croix d'Torfin 20/11/2007 12:44:14

#9. Lynne, USA.. - I want nothing from you, least of all pro-Israeli propaganda. I am sure there were plenty "good" Communists outside the DDR who really thought the Inner German Border was an "Anti-Fascist Protection Barrier".

11

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 20/11/2007 12:47:24

Yesterday:

* Ido Zuldan, a 29-year-old Israeli civilian and father of two small children, was murdered by Palestinian terrorists on a road in the West Bank. The Fatah-affiliated Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade took responsibility for the attack. A statement from the group said the shooting came in protest of the upcoming Annapolis peace summit and the "crimes of Israel against the Palestinians."

* Three Palestinian terrorists tried to infiltrate from Gaza into Israel to attack Netiv Ha'Asara. Two were killed.

* Another two Palestinian terrorists from Gaza apparently tried to plant a bomb on a patrol road along the border with Israel. Both were killed.

* Palestinian terrorists in Gaza fired a barrage of mortar shells on civilian areas in the western Negev and toward Ashkelon.

James Donald, Israel is a democracy, albeit an imperfect one (as are all democracies), with a large (about 20%) and growing Arab minority. Even considering the security situation and the mixed desire of Arab Israelis to participate in mainstream Israeli society while maintaining their own cultural identity, there is almost no official discrimination, and both formal and informal discrimination are on the decline.

Meanwhile, over in the Palestinian occupied territories, neither the Fatah nor Hamas governments permit the existence of any Jewish minority at all. There are no Jewish citizens or permanent residents of Palestine, and even to sell land to a Jew in these areas is punishable by death. Likewise, when Palestinians have taken over areas that were previously settled in ancient or modern times by Jews, they've tried to wipe out all evidence of a Jewish presence, for example by destroying holy places, cemeteries, and archaeological sites.

It is obvious which side practices apartheid and worse, and which does not.

Paul Voltaire, the Palestinian leadership under the Mufti Mohammad al-Husayni (Arafat's cousin) sided with the Nazis during WW

12

Number 6,

Germany 20/11/2007 12:52:17

#9 Lynne get real. The wonderfull Israel is now repealing a law that gave every jew , world wide , the right to israeli citizenship. Too many russians
and of course those dam black ones in Ethiopia you see.
Not quite the reactions of a peacefull all inclusive society, is it. Incidentally when you blow up cars driving down public highways from the air , that's called killing in the streets, especially when innocent women and children are caught up in the slaughter.

And just where is apartheid being practised in
Saudi Arabia Iran or Egypt ??. You don't know what it means , do you.

13

Lynne,

USA.. 20/11/2007 12:54:14

James Donald..Is your hero Carter or something..? Well least of all do we want to read your anti-Israel propaganda from day to day...EVERY DAY. It's annoying..it's full of lies..When you have to protect yourself daily...daily, when you have to make sure your children can come home from school, and your wife from the grocery store...you build walls, whcih have proven to be successful..and for the fact that they have been successful in stopping suicide bombers...like it or not...GET USED TO IT..

14

I,

20/11/2007 12:58:19

#9 Lynne. I'm quite sure you would have been on here calling Nelson Mandela a terrorist 20 years ago.
You support a racially divided state of Israel which has ignored over 200 UN security council resolutions.
You are a supporter of an internationally recognised criminal state.

15

Number 6,

Germany 20/11/2007 13:00:56

#11 My comments are also directed at the palistinian terrorists, they are as bad as the jewish ones , no question. To say the Israelis are not to blame for the terrible, out of all proportion attack on a countrie's civil infrastructure . Cowardly lawless attacks , condemed throughout the civilised world
is bizarre.

Only diplomacy will solve the problems in the middle east. Israel must also ensure they stop assasinating any prime-minister who dares speak of peace.

16

Lynne,

USA.. 20/11/2007 13:05:44

Number 6...Black children are ensalved in Sudan..It is the last place in Africa where humans own humans.
When you walk into a reastaurant and or hotel in the middle of a holiday dinner to blow yourself up, that is call murder.
How do you see things so one sided?
If over 1000 rockets have been launched since Gaza was turned back to Palestinians..what do you call that?
And as far as Eithiopian Jews...they are not "damned black"...they are one of the oldest Jewish tribes. Your sick...your a bigot.. and it's time for you to get real.

17

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 20/11/2007 13:32:39

#10 JD

Always the propogandist.

The Berlin Wal was to keep people in.
The Security Fence, like borders AROUND THE WORLD is to keep people out.

European hypocricy is rampant indeed.

EU to build wall after blasting Israel's
'European hypocrisy is as rank as it is blatant'

Posted: August 17, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By Aaron Klein
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

Just one month after the U.N. and EU launched a furious campaign against Israel's security fence, culminating in the International Court of Justice ruling that the fence is illegal, the EU announced it's planning to build a separation fence of its own, and invited Israel to participate in the construction.

The fence is being built to separate recently added EU members Poland and Hungary from their new neighbors – Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. The EU said the fence is necessary to "prevent the free movement of migrants seeking to enter" EU territory.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39998

Build a fence to keep out people who want jobs -OK
Build a fence to keep out people who want to kill - Not OK?

18

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 20/11/2007 13:35:35

#15

Perhaps you are just ignorant, but Begin signed a peace treaty with Egypt. He was not assasinated.
Barak worked out a treaty very similar to the new one but Arafat decided he would rather have the new Palestine concieved in violence than negotiation.
Sharon moved peace futher and faster than Olmert,

So muc for your 'assasinating every prime minister' libel.

By the way, the ONE Egyptian leader who made peace WAS assasinated, so perhaps you should peddle your drivel on an Egyptian board.

19

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 20/11/2007 13:37:11

#12 Number 6

What lies you endlessley spew.

One person made a suggestion for a change in the law.

No one else agreed.

THat is hardly the same as saying the law is being changed.

But why deal in facts when you can lie and libel, huh?

20

Lynne,

USA.. 20/11/2007 13:38:49

I..I do not support a racially divided Israel.. Israel has been more than willing to live peacefully side by side, it seems to be the other way around. They want to push Israel into the sea...they want to make sure Israel is off the map. The agressors aren't Israel..they returned lands THEY WON...what other country has done that. They win wars, and have to sue for peace.
Enough...the UN has its own agenda about Israel...Every day hundreds of African Tribesmen are killed in Darfur by militias acting with the knowledge of Sudan's Arab Islamist Gov't. Each day Hamas bombs from Gaza deliberately target Israelis in Sderot..Hear anything from the UN about these? The life span of a Zimbabweans is 34, and over 500,000 have died over the past 3 years under Mugabe policies..Un has done little, international outrage? Do you hear it? These are barbaric crimes and moral tragedies that the UN does not seem concerned with.
Only concerns are with the state of Israel and how it protects itself.
The fact that the Gaza Strip was returned was on the promise that Hamas would stop using the area to launch rockets. Another lie that the UN doesn't concern itself with. Not the fact that their word was broken so shortly after the return. Arms smuggling in the southern Gaza has brought in more than 30 tons of high explosives does not the UN concern itself with. The massive smuggling of lethal weapons from Egypt doesn't seem to bother the UN either. The kidnapping of an Israeli soldier and the killing of 2 others doesn't seem to bother the UN..
The ONLY THING the UN concerns itself with is the way Israel protects herself.
The UN is a joke. Has been from the day of conception. It should go the way its predessor, the League of Nations went.
By the way, how about the women being celebrated in the refugee camps for acting as human sheilds and thwarting an air attack on a particular person.
Face it, if Israel placed human shields around a house..th

21

Lynne,

USA.. 20/11/2007 13:45:29

Consider:

• The General Assembly convened a special emergency session on November 17 to censure Israel. Were the circumstances of Beit Hanoun not so tragic, this episode would read like a satirical farce. The session was called by none other than Fidel Castro's mouthpiece at Turtle Bay, Cuban Ambassador Rodrígo Malmierca Díaz, acting as chair of the "Non-Aligned Movement." Diaz was seconded by Senegalese envoy Paul Badji, chair of the "UN Committee for the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People." (There is no committee for the rights of the Jews, Christians, Bahais, Darfurians, Tibetans, or members of other faiths in Muslim countries.) Next to the podium was none other than the ambassador of that country of free and fair elections, Ilgar Mammadov of Azerbaijian, chair of the "Organization of the Islamic Conference." Israel's UN representative, Ambassador Dan Gillerman, was diplomatically understating it when he said the General Assembly was being "used, abused, and hijacked."

22

Lynne,

USA.. 20/11/2007 13:47:48

• The special emergency session's anti-Israel resolution passed by 156 votes to 7. Only Australia, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, and Palau joined Israel and the United States in opposition. (Canada, Côte d'Ivoire, Papua New Guinea, Tonga, Tuvalu, and Vanuatu abstained.) The resolution called, inter alia, for the establishment of an international mission under the personal supervision of UN chief Kofi Annan to probe the "circumstances of the incident," as well as a demand that the UN defend the Palestinian population. American media reported that former US President Jimmy Carter might instead head the probe committee. (Carter's latest book, Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid, slams Israel as an "apartheid state," undoubtedly to establish his "expert credentials" to undertake assignments on behalf of the international lynch mob.) Fortunately, resolutions of the General Assembly, while bothersome, are not legally binding.
• Only a U.S. veto, wielded by Ambassador John Bolton, avoided a UN Security Council resolution condemning Israel which would have been legally binding, opening the way to sanctions. Ambassador Bolton was furious at the blatant perfidy of the international body. His remarks are worth quoting at some length. "This type of resolution serves only to exacerbate tensions by serving the interests of elements hostile to Israel's inalienable and recognized right to exist," he noted. "This deepens suspicions about the United Nations that will lead many to conclude that the organization is incapable of playing a helpful role in the region." "In a larger sense, the United Nations must confront a more significant question, that of its relevance and utility in confronting the challenges of the 21st century. We believe that the United Nations is ill served when its members seek to transform the organization into a forum that is a little more than a self-serving and a polemical attack against Isr

23

Lynne,

USA.. 20/11/2007 13:48:02

• Last week the laughable UN Human Rights Council held its third special session in less than six months focusing on Israel alone.. In its entire existence the Human Rights Council has failed to pass one resolution on any country other than Israel, events taking place in Burma, North Korea Cuba, and the states mentioned to at the beginning of this essay notwithstanding. (See our article earlier this year on the Human Rights Council.)
Meanwhile, back in the real world, ninety-two percent of respondents in a recent poll of one thousand adult Egyptians characterize Israel as an enemy state. Only 2 percent see Israel as "a friend to Egypt." These sentiments express themselves in many ways, including a popular song entitled "I Hate Israel," venomously anti-Semitic Egyptian political cartoons, bizarre conspiracy theories, and terrorist attacks against visiting Israelis. Egypt's leading democracy movement, Kifaya, recently launched an initiative to collect a million signatures on a petition demanding the annulment of the March 1979 Egypt-Israel peace treaty. (One wonders if they intend to return the Sinai to Israel, since it was relinquished in consideration of peace?)
Mark Steyn muses on the blatant double standard of the international community in an essay in the Jerusalem Post:

24

Lynne,

USA.. 20/11/2007 13:50:15

The threat of a second Holocaust grows more acute by the day. The mutation of the world's oldest hatred, in a West that stood by during the first Holocaust, cries out for immediate response. Who, apart from America, is willing to furnish one?

This is unacceptable to anyone with a brain. We, will never let it happen again ..NEVER AGAIN..
Israel is here to stay...and so are the Jews

25

I,

20/11/2007 13:54:29

Lynne - what do you think of all those who believe in the Rapture and are actively hoping for Armageddon in the Middle East so that they can be whisked up to heaven?
Do you think they help your cause or hinder it?

26

Number 6,

Germany 20/11/2007 14:05:37

#20 the reason people are so anti-israel is because they are seen as the biggest threat to peace in the middle east. The constant shrieks about Iran and how they will take it upon themselves to bomb Iran
if they dare develop their nuclear facilities. In other words Israel actually believes it and it alone should have nucs in the middle east . Well no way is that going to happen.the us cannot just attack Iran , as
your own imbecelic goverment are going to find out. Go to a rare book store over there and ask for something called "An Atlas". Check out how big Iran is. What's the plan, mass slaughter ala Iraq . Obliteration of tehran. I'd love to see you try. Your economy is already in free-fall, all it takes is for you to reject more chinese products and they will start selling off their dollar reserves, sending your near worthless currency through the floor. Even American rappers are now appearing in their videos, driving european cars and flashing wads of
euros.

The us and israel's big plan to carve up the middle east and it's reserves has fallen, yet again flat on it's big fat face. And it's you, "The american people"
who will pay for this catastrophy for generations to come.

27

Last Rank,

Mexico City 20/11/2007 14:25:33

14 Nelson Mandela was a terrorist and the ANC is quickly destroying South Africa. Corruption, murder, and rape are epidemic while the government turns a blind eye. Expect another Zimbabwe, and if you live in South Africa get out while there is still time. Australia and America seem the only viable outlets now. Go to the UK only if you want to be PC'd to death.

28

Last Rank,

Mexico City 20/11/2007 14:27:16

Number 6, the biggest threat to peace in the Mid East is Wahabi Islam but I doubt you can see past your prejudice to see that.

29

Lynne,

USA.. 20/11/2007 14:36:52

I... the trouble with Armageddan the way Ahmadinejad sees it, is all infidels will die, and he is ready to usher it in. Far be it from me to tell those that believe in the Rapture...what to believe in, but confine it to those of that faith, who are willing to be be participants.

30

Lynne,

USA.. 20/11/2007 14:43:04

Number 6...the biggest threat in the Mid East is Islamofacism. I would not expect you to agree, as you have shown yourself to be anti-semitic and anti-Israel and Anti-American.
No matter what anyone says, the prejudices you have will override all that is said.

Before you speak of the downfall of America...check into Iran...They have a lot of economic problems...no refineries to speak of, and spend a lot of money to get their oil refined.
The lock up dissadents, hang minors, lash rape victims for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and time and time again America has said it is not out to attack Iran.. but to Anti-Americans..that item goes right over their heads and yours.

31

malkster,

Scotland 20/11/2007 14:54:53

#30

You are wasting your time trying to reason with Number 6. he isn't interested in anything other than his own blinkered views.

32

Lynne,

USA.. 20/11/2007 15:10:07

# 31 I know..., but for some reason, I am not sure if it is stubborness, I still try..!! Useless as it is.

33

James Donald,

Croix d'Torfin 20/11/2007 15:18:00

#13. Lynne, USA.. - Who is this Carter? Carter USM or the ancient peanut farmer? If both sides put a little bit more effort into a compromise peace, then there might be less need for this wall that seems to dwarf even the Berlin Wall.
If you find my posts annoying (as I do yours) - GET USED TO IT.

34

James Donald,

Croix d'Torfin 20/11/2007 15:25:37

#17. Home_Sweet_Home, Who rattled your cage -"The Berlin Wal was to keep people in" - Not according to the propaganda of the DDR government.
"The Security Fence, like borders AROUND THE WORLD is to keep people out" - why should anyone believe a pro-Israeli propagandist?
Were the walls of the Warsaw Ghetto to keep people in or out? Perhaps the Israelis think that by building a high enough wall and ghettoising the Palestinians this will be a solution. It is only a matter of time before terrorists overcome this "problem" so what then? A death strip with land mines and automated machine guns?

35

Taz,

The Land of the Free. 20/11/2007 16:29:30

6. Paul Voltaire / 8:25am 20 Nov 2007
The Jewish people gained their own state after World War II largely due to international sympathy at the racism they had suffered under the Nazis.
Nowadays, racism is rampant in Israel and it is the former victims who are now the perpetrators.
I find that rather appalling.
...................................................
And I find your post rather untrue. Is Israel supposed to allow Palestinians to roam the streets of Tel Aviv and semtex Israeli families at will? Anything Israel has they fought for and no thanks to the British. The Palestinians voted in a known terrorist government. They can get on with it. This is the same Palestinians that danced in the streets on 9/11 and no doubt celebrated at the murder of the folks in London that were killed in the tube. I suggest you get real.

36

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 20/11/2007 16:32:49

#34

Better question is why would anyone believe a Israel-hating propogandist?

So I ask you again, oh lying one, why is it OK for the EU to build a fence ot keep people out so they wont take jobs, but not OK for Israel to build a wall to keep people out who want to kill?

You want to pretend the fence is to keep people in? Oh yes, there are hundreds of thouands of Israelis just screaming for the opportunities that await them in the Palestinian territories.

You want ot pretend there is ANY similarity to the walls around the Warsaw Ghetto? Do you think the Jews in the Ghetto were trying to get out - out to ANYWHERE, like the people behind the Berin Wall. They were not trying to get In, they were trying to get out.
Palestinians are free to get out - they can go over the Allenby Brodgre to Jordan. WHen they stop trying to kill European Advisors, they can go out through Egypt. But the fence keeps them from getting IN to Israel and in to Israel ONLY.

Lies and smears and smears and lies.
Your hate makes you sound stupid.

37

Archibald,

Wilts. 20/11/2007 16:33:56

Things can't be so bad for Palestinian Arabs in Israel when thousands of them are now scrambling in Jerusalem to obtain Israeli citizenship. If any peace deal comes out of the Annapolis Conference and Jerusalem is divided, they don't want to be in the areas that would come under the Palestinian Authority.

38

I,

20/11/2007 16:48:28

Lynne - why is everyone who criticises the actions of Israel or America "anti-semitic" or "anti-American" ?

Were people who criticised the actions of the Nazis "anti-German" then?
or were people who hated apartheid "anti-South African"?

39

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 20/11/2007 17:06:48

#38 I

When you bltahter about Israel being evil and ignore the greater evils in the Arab countries surrounding it.
When you speak of how Jews are creating a 'racially divivded state' and ignore the FACT that over 1 million Arabs are full citizens of Israel.
When you discriminate against Israe for its Jewish character but ignore the Muslim character of the Arab nations.
When you blame Israel for all the ills of the Middle East.

These do not show you (one if you prefer) to be someone wishing to discuss or debate, but merely someone wishing to spread hatred.

Thats why

40

James Donald,

Croix d'Torfin 20/11/2007 17:21:26

#36. Home_Sweet_Home, Who Cares - "Better question is why would anyone believe a Israel-hating propogandist?
So I ask you again, oh lying one....." - Anyone that commences a post in such a way is not looking for a reasoned debate (I had established this about you to my own satisfaction some time ago) or even a reasoned response.
This being the case, Mr self-appointed Israeli propagandist and smear-monger, do not feel you have to respond to any of my posts, especially if all you have is your own twisted form of bile.

41

57Nomad,

california 20/11/2007 18:04:40

#10 James Donald

JD said:

"Sounds about as convincing as the East Germans calling the Berlin Wall the "Anti-Fascist Protection Barrier"."

Let me get this straight. The thing in Berlin was a wall, the thing in Israel is a wall, therefore the Berlin Wall and the wall in Israel are equal. And, what was true about the Berlin wall is therefore true of the Israeli wall.

The Berlin Wall was built because the population of East Berlin was hightailing it into West Germany as quickly as they could. They went to the West because they wanted to be Westerners, because they liked the West more than the East. They wanted to become part of it.

The wall in Israel is not there to keep Jews from fleeing into Arabia. It is not there to keep Muslims out of Israel. It is there because the free and open access necessary to economic prosperity was being taken advantage of, Red Crescent ambulance/mobile fire base-like, by terrorists who were going into Israel not because they wanted to be part of it, but because they hate it and want to destroy it.

I don't see a parallel.

42

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 20/11/2007 18:07:31

#40

OK, so lets see if you can answer a question

Why is it OK for the EU to build a fence ot keep people out so they wont take jobs, but not OK for Israel to build a wall to keep people out who want to kill?

You claim it is I and not you who is not interested in reasoned deboate, yet you post a lie, I refute it and rather than answer you dodge (as I recall and as can be seen from above, you started out by calling me names, not visa versa)

So, can you answer and discuss or only dodge and blame?

43

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 20/11/2007 18:09:57

#41

If you argue with James Doland, self appointed propogandist against Israel, then obviously you must be wrong.

Read his posts. He refuses to discuss, merly to pontificate and call names of those who dare to disagree.

But you have said it exactly right.
THere is no parralel, besides they both being walls.

I'll bet Mr Doland has a wall in his own home. It must be exaxtly the same as the Berlin Wall.

44

,

20/11/2007 19:56:41
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45

James Donald,

Croix d'Torfin 20/11/2007 20:00:36

#41. 57Nomad, california - Before you go straining yourself looking for something that isn't there perhaps you should read the article again and then my post #5.

46

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 20/11/2007 20:01:08

One only needs to listen to och minna jad to hear what he and the Palistinians want.

I support Israel 100% ............

47

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 20/11/2007 20:15:32

James,

Can you tell me (us I suppose) what you would like to see in the Isreal/Palestine region?

I mean I think we would all say peace, but would you like to see bothe entities exist?

Are you as accussed here many times anti-Semetic?

Do you know any Jews personally?

Do you know any Palestinians personally?

Have you been to Israel?

Have you been to Palestine?

lastly, and I know this is a long list, have you ever servved in a war zone?

48

James Donald,

Croix d'Torfin 20/11/2007 20:34:04

#47. Sanity is relative, Scotland - Sorry, I don't fill in questionaires on the internet. If you are new to the site as opposed to a troll, this site is to allow you to post comments on a news story not ask for personal details.

49

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 20/11/2007 20:38:09

Ok sorry,

I just was coming to the apparent conclusion from what you wrote, that you would possibly like to see Israel obliterated, Palestine truimphant, that you are allegedly/apparently anti-semetic, that you possibly know neither any Jews, nor Palestinians, and have never served in a war zone.

But Again apologies fro asking.

50

,

20/11/2007 20:38:14
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51

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 20/11/2007 20:40:03

By the way James Charlie Tait says hi ;-)

52

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 20/11/2007 20:40:55

By the way James,

Charlie Tait says hi ;-)

53

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 20:46:59

Many American AIPAC people on here. Your message harms Israel with it's untruth and propagaganda.

Who to believe? Israeli soldiers who have served in the OT....... or misled American AIPAC messengers?

You chose.

"Breaking the Silence"... Israeli soldiers speaking of their experience in the occupied territories.

Visit our site http://www.shovrimshtika.org/article_e.asp?id=16&page=1

54

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 20:52:41

The "Wall" may protect Palestinians from harm by IDF illegal orders.


http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp

Soldiers that have served in the OT are ashamed of their treatment of civilians.

Please visit our site with a open heart and try to understand.

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp

Only the truth can heal.

Shalom aleichem.

55

James Donald,

Croix d'Torfin 20/11/2007 20:55:25

#49. Sanity is relative, Scotland - No need then for me to answer when i have my pet troll #50 to do it for me. No reasoning with GIYUS types here.
#52. Sanity is relative, Scotland - Yes I read it first time - okay then, who is Charlie Tait?

56

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 20:56:03
57

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 20/11/2007 20:56:26

#53

Israel is a free and open democracy. That SOME soldiers disagree with Israeli policy is normal.

That does not make them right (nor wrong)

But let me ask this - where are all the Palestinians speaking out against the barbaric methods of homicide bombers, snipers and rocketting civillian cities?

Who to believe? The open and free discussion or the closed and one sided terror affront?

Hmmmm

58

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 20/11/2007 20:58:32

53, and your site is not propoganda??

59

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 20/11/2007 21:04:59

James I thought my questions were valid, maybe if I did it this way then everyone could answer.

How may people here

Can tell me (us I suppose) what you would like to see in the Isreal/Palestine region?

I mean I think we would all say peace, but would you like to see both entities exist?

Would any here describe themselves anti-Semetic?

Do you know any Jews personally?

Do any of you know any Palestinians personally?

Have you been to Israel?

Have you been to Palestine?

60

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 21:06:03

Who to believe? There are wrongdoings on both sides.

Shooting children on a roof collecting water is better than a suicide bomber?

61

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 21:07:15

We make games of shooting holes all over their rooftop water tanks so they have no water,

????

62

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 21:11:51

We destroy their infrastructure, their police and security apparatus, their political and civic structures and yet you seek normality from the Palestinians?

Open and free discussion is never going to happen under these conditions, conditions Israel created and today maintains.

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/gallery_item_e.asp?id=19

63

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 20/11/2007 21:11:55

#60

Killing dozns of innocents with malice aforethought. Packing a bomb belt with rat poison so the wounded bleed out and die.

Versus shooting at someone trying to kill you and hitting an innocent by accident?

And you want to know which is woirse?

Do you even possess morality?

64

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 20/11/2007 21:13:00

Malachi

Care for the Palestinian CAUSE all you want,. We can disagree with that.

But support their barbaric TACTICS and you support evil.

Do not pretend the Palestinians have no options other than mass murder and thuggery.

65

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 20/11/2007 21:14:50

Malachi, no party who does wrong deserves to go unpunished.

In all wars horrific things happen.

In all wars there are war crimes which in itself is an oxymoron!!!

If the Israelis wanted to they could make Palestine dissapear. but they don't want that. The Gaza strip was given on condition no rockets .......... rockest fired within hours of reoccupancy of strip PLUS the destruction of all the infrastructure left.

when it comes to killing there is no High Ground, it is some-ones son or daughter.

But when some people want to see Israel "taken from the map" what can they do??

66

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 21:24:34

Home Sweet Home

harah !!!

"Do not pretend the Palestinians have no options other than mass murder and thuggery"

Where did I say this ???

"Care for the Palestinian CAUSE all you want,. "

Where did I say this ???

"support their barbaric TACTICS "

Where did I say this ???

What are you reading? Do you understand english?

Shall I go to Hebrew?

Visit and understand brutality from us will reap brutality from them.

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/gallery_item_e.asp?id=19

Shalom aleichem.

67

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 20/11/2007 21:27:16

Malachi, in the ????? does it not say peace?

68

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 20/11/2007 21:28:38

as for the brutality, Isreal had many cease fires even under bodybombing and still they came ........ so if the Palestinians stopped the rockets it would help.

69

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 20/11/2007 21:34:15

lets all hope it is fixed before b'acharit ha-yamim and not the cause of it

70

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 20/11/2007 21:36:24

ps in 67 I wrote Jewish Bible in Hebrew and guess what it got censored!!!! how funny is that??

71

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 20/11/2007 21:37:51

???? ?????

72

,

20/11/2007 21:38:58
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73

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 22:04:48

Sal's Italian Pizza,

You deliver to Yafo ? :-)

74

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 22:10:17

Home sweet home

"Versus shooting at someone trying to kill you and hitting an innocent by accident?"

you are so niave!

Many times it's not like that.

Someone on a roof.... Shoot them.

Armed, unarmed.. whatever.

Adult, child ????

it's about to stay alive... go home on leave....

75

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 22:18:25

Sanity is relative 68

"And still they came...." ...and still we came...

...at each other. And for what?

It certainly would help if they stopped firing rockets.

And it would help too if we ended the oppression and occupation.

Chicken/egg egg/chicken ???

76

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 20/11/2007 22:18:55

#74 Malachi

It is you who are deliberatley provacative.

How many hundreds of times are there people on the roof. Are you saying that Israelis shoot them EVERY time?

Or is it that the soldiers are being shot at and they shoot.

And again you try to ignore the barbarity of Palestinian actions of suicide bombers and pretend there is a moral equivalency. And then have to stretch or invent truth to get there.

Dont be inane.

77

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 22:21:22

No Gefilte fish on the Isle of Man.

How do these people live?

78

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 20/11/2007 22:24:59

#75

And what of Hamas who claims all of Israel? They will still scream 'occupation' unless there is no more Tel Aviv.

No chicken and no egg.

Palestinian METHODS are barbaric.

Occupation is trespess, it is NOT a capiital offense.

I ask again, do you have morals?

79

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 22:27:47

home sweety home

To kill is to kill... the delivery solution is of no matter to the victim or his mother. And what is moral equivalency but clever words.

Israel is far from rightious in these matters.

many, many Palestinians shot by the IDF are offering no threat. It's revenge, it's to create fear and to make space for operations.

Perhaps you should volunteer service in the OT..... then you could make INFORMED comments.

80

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 20/11/2007 22:30:49

#79

NO.

To MURDER is not the same as to Kill.
It DOES Matter.

TO pretend there is a moral equivalence between a soldier shooting at someone to save his own or someone else's life and a homicide bomber who murders dozens of innocents is barbaric at best.

That you keep wanting to pretend its the same answers my question.
You have no morals.

81

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 22:38:19

Home sweet...

How about we Israelis leave the OT and go home,
and you Americans (?) take over the occupation you love it so much.

Sit on your couch like General Potato telling us all what to think.

There are no Qasams falling on you ???

You have never witnessed a small child soil herself with fear during a house search or put your hands over your ears to block the wailing of the mothers.
Ata chay be'sratim! Reality is like a stranger to you.

Are you paid to "defend" Israel?

Shakli b'tahat!

82

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 22:48:58

Report extract (d/0178/oc)

Did you see that he was unarmed?

I saw with my own eyes that the man was unarmed. He (the sharpshooter) also reported… the report said: ‘an unarmed man on the roof’. The PC interpreted it that the man was an observer. He interpreted that the man was an observer, meaning the man was not directly threatening us, and he ordered us to shoot the man and we did it…I myself didn’t shoot, a fellow soldier shot and killed him. And you start thinking that in the US death sentences are imposed, and on every sentence there are thousands of appeals, as they take it very seriously, judges, academically trained people, and there are demonstrations, and so on. Actually a 26-year-old man, my PC, imposed a death sentence on an unarmed man. Who was he? What’s that ‘an observer?’ So what? Is that enough of a reason to kill him? And how did he know he was an observer? He obviously didn’t know. All he knew was that there was an unarmed man on top of the roof, and he ordered to kill him, which, in my opinion was an illegitimate order, and we carried the order out, and killed a human being. The man died. In my opinion that was outright murder. And that wasn’t the only case. (

Just another day in the OT!!!

83

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 22:50:13

OCMP (D/176)

No. He wasn’t armed. Just walking about – I don’t want to say he was innocent, I don’t want to make any assumptions. He was walking in the general area of the tunnel. They shot him. He got a bullet here, and fell down.
In the chest.
Yes. He fell down, then stood up, made a few steps, and then dropped dead. I tell them “Why?!” He goes: “No reason, he just got close, they killed him.” I say, “Why didn’t you shoot his legs? Why the chest? Chest is good, and legs are no good?” – It wasn’t from a great distance, and this was a sniper shooting. – “No reason. You know…” I ask, “No one knows about it, right?” – “Obviously not.”

Just another day etc...

84

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 22:59:05

Time you checked reality Home sweety.

85

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 20/11/2007 23:00:28

#81

V'ein atah lo yachol l'baber ha-emet
You cannot speak the truth.

That you keep trying to justify the slaughter of innocent Israelis by pretending there is some magical right the Palestinians have to kill and the Israelis have no right to self-protection is absurd.

Innocents die in conflict. But Murderous thugs kill innocents on purpose.
THey hold parades to celebrate the deaths
They pass out sweets to rejoice in the slaughter.
They train their children to kill and to die so as to go to heaven.
They show childrens TV with Mickey Mouse killing.
They instill a culture of violence and murder.

Israel does none of those things.
The Palestinians do.

Pretend at will

Perhaps if the Palestinians ceased their murderous ways for a few days, just maybe, there would be peace.

Or is murder too much a way of life for Palestinians?

86

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 23:05:50

Home sweet

Suicide bombers you keep going on about?

The last suicide bombing in Israel was when? remind me?

Years ago.

Yet still we keep shooting them.

Kill ratio; 10 - 1 in Israels favour.

We kill 10, then they kill 1.. and on and on...

And we killed 10,000 Lebanese for why.

Didn't see no Lebanese suicide bombers.... but no doubt you did. (from you Command Couch in the USA)

87

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 23:17:08

"Perhaps if the Palestinians ceased their murderous ways for a few days, just maybe, there would be peace."

Perhaps if we ended the occupation and left them alone they would be less inclined to shoot at us.

What would you do were you a Palestinian? Roll over like a dog and die? We are squeezing the life out of them each and every day, and if I was a Palestinian I would fight with whatever I had for my peoples survival.

but I'm Israeli... so for Israel I fight, for right or for wrong.

For you, Israel is righteous in everything and the Palestinians are evil in everything. This is so simplistic it is funny... but also tragic.

Shalom aleichem. (sorry for earlier)

Maybe it's nice to dream... but they are never going to just roll over for us.

88

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 20/11/2007 23:31:02

Were they armed?

Wait a minute. Meanwhile they didn’t shoot at us. Didn’t return fire.

Except when it all started?

No! The initial shots were ours.

Oh, OK.

We didn’t run into them and they never fired at us during any phase of the operation. Initially we opened fire from a distance, hitting nothing. Then we got up to storm the position, hitting one of theirs and he escaped. I hit him with another bullet. The second ran into the shed (that caught fire) while we chased the third to the graveyard. The fourth one escaped.

The guy in the cemetery was killed?

No (above he was quoted as saying yes, he was killed!). We stood on the wall, shot, and he fell. That was the end. Now the first one who fell lay on the ground and we saw only the lower part of his body. Some boulder hid him. There were three or four (of our guys) who kept shooting at the body, punching holes into it.

To ‘confirm kill’?

No. From the excitement of the battle they punched holes, punching him completely. At the retreat from the cemetery I went to check, to ‘confirm kill’ and also to take his rifle away. I reached him and he was smashed…. a completely smashed body. I turned the body around. It was a guy in his mid-fiftieths or sixtieths, very old. No arms. Later we understood, that, including the one at the cemetery, no one of them was armed.

Were they uniformed?

They wore the uniforms of Palestinian policemen but were unarmed. And we went and threw another grenade into this thing that was burning…end.

_Just another glorious action of the IDF.... another day in the OT..... more dead, unarmed, palestinians.

89

Lynne,

USA 21/11/2007 00:18:31

The reason suicide bombs have been few and far between is because of the Wall and checkpoints.
The same people you profess to hate are the same people who are treating Iraqi children with severe burns in Jerusalem. The same people who went to Kenya to open a temporary eye clinic for Sudenese refugees, and the same people who packed and delivered food, and assisted Muslims for EID Al-Fiter Holiday. These are the same people who sent a medical to team to Peru and delivered 30 tons of medical supplies. The same people who hid their identiies to to help the children of Dafur at a Somali refugee camp.

My, my..that's reality

90

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 21/11/2007 00:43:43

Youre on a completely alternate subject Lynne.

I'm well aware of the work carried out by Israel and that's what makes the actions of the IDF in the occupied territories so damaging to Israel.

I have been talking of the actions of Israeli soldiers in the OT. Nothing else.
And i'm fed up with Americans like you and HomeSweet telling Israelis what is going on in our own country.

Drag your butt out of your couch, volunteer service in the OT.... then, and only then, can you begin to have the right to accuse me one way or the other.

"he same people you profess to hate "..... What ????

I hate my people because I question the activity of my political leaders ????
Is that a neo-con thing??? So much for Americans pretence of the love of freedom of speech and Democracy.

Now settle back in your couch and flik channels.

91

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 21/11/2007 00:48:32

And the lack of suicide bombings has not a lot to do with the wall which is sporadic and incomplete. Plenty of gaps and many potential bombers this side of the wall already.

Reality? You wouldn't know the reality of Israel if it slapped you on the face. How could you... you are on the other side of the planet, thankfully.

92

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 21/11/2007 00:50:39

Oh, I forget. You have your daily AIPAC briefings.

:-)

93

Wolfson,

Australia 21/11/2007 01:00:01

The Jewish people didn't earn a homeland in 1948. The first part of Israel was stolen for them by a misguided and swindled League of Nations. Since then, the greater Israel is just the spoils of plunder, pillage and murder.
The wall is an obscenity, an unavoidable fingerprint of the Zionist Bolsheviks who have simply shifted their operation to Palestine where they continue work on their racist, supremacist world hegemony.

If Israel needs security it can only come by way of truth and justice. The mere existence, size and character of the wall is expose to just the opposite.

94

Lynne,

USA 21/11/2007 01:29:08

Malachi...you are a sham..you profess to be a Jew who questions..but you have to be a sham. With all the 1000 and more rockets fired into "YOUR country".
I don't just sit on my couch doing nothing. I probably work just as hard as any Sabra in trying to help Israel. My parents went one summer to help out years ago..and went most summers until my father's death.
My organization knits scarves and hats for "your" soldiers, raises money at every event to "invest" in "your" country...but I will say one thing...may be hard for you to believe...MY DNA is one that has Israel as my home also.
So, don't you condescend to me about what I do and do not do, and where I should sit. I have relatives and friends that I worry about also. I advise you to take a seat..and ponder what a real Jew is..It's not you. Oh yes, question if you will, but look at the whole picture...yours is as one sided as the Palestinians.

95

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 21/11/2007 01:42:40

Same old AIPAC tactic. Smear everyone, even REAL Israelis, that disagree with the occupation as "not real Jews" and "self-haters" and "haters of Israel". Well done. You have earned your AIPAC Sheqels.

Oh, an thank you for the woolly hat.

My soul may be as cold as ice.... but my head will be warm.

96

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 21/11/2007 01:55:11

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/news_item_e.asp?id=8

IDF Spokesperson Tells the Truth!

On Thursday, 1.11.07. , The Daily Israel Today published a story revealing that soldiers from Golani 12th battalion take pictures of corpses of terrorists which they killed, and use them as screen savers on their cell phones. At first glance, it seems that that is the real news is in this story. At a closer look, the article gives us a rare glimpse at the logic that guides the IDF spokesman when examining cases like these. This is due to an unexplained honesty of the IDF's response to the incident.

After the obligatory declaration of the IDF's commitment to morality and human rights, the IDF stated: " The issues will be examined, and if we see that this is indeed an extraordinary case, and not a widespread phenomenon, it will be dealt with with utmost seriousness."

Yes, yes -- according to the IDF, if this is a widespread phenomenon, meaning, if they find out that in many cases soldiers have corpses as screen savers on their phones, the problem will NOT be dealt with.

Finally the IDF stated, without shame, their policy since Breaking the Silence began publishing soldiers' testimonies: The IDF does not investigate or punish when dealing with the illegal norms of its soldiers. It only acts in extra-ordinary cases. The reason is simple: the IDF is aware of the importance of ethical values. And ethically, an extra-ordinary problem is better than a widespread phenomenon, so the IDF deals only with the former.

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/news_item_e.asp?id=8

This is an ISRAELI website set up by members of the IDF that have served in the occupied territories.

It does not make pleasant reading, but does offer a window through which reality may be witnessed.

97

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 21/11/2007 01:59:57

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/news_item_e.asp?id=8

Breaking the Silence is an organization of veteran Israeli soldiers that collects testimonies of soldiers who served in the Occupied Territories during the Second Intifadah. Soldiers who serve in the Territories are witness to, and participate in military actions which change them immensely. Cases of abuse towards Palestinians, looting, and destruction of property have been the norm for years, but are still excused as military necessities, or explained as extreme and unique cases. Our testimonies portray a different and grim picture of questionable orders in many areas regarding Palestinian civilians. These demonstrate the depth of corruption which is spreading in the Israeli military. While this reality which is known to Israeli soldiers and commanders exists in Israel's back yard, Israeli society continues to turn a blind eye, and to deny that which happens in its name. Discharged soldiers who return to civilian life discover the gap between the reality which they encountered in the Territories and the silence which they encounter at home. In order to become civilians again, soldiers are forced to ignore their past experiences. Breaking the Silence voices the experiences of those soldiers, in order to force Israeli society to address the reality which it created.

Until today, Breaking the Silence interviewed hundreds of soldiers who served in the territories, and continues interviewing soldiers daily. These interviews are published on this website, in testimonial booklets, through different media outlets, and also through lectures and tours to Hebron. The testimonies are published with minimal editing and with complete confidentiality, in order to protect the soldiers and to encourage them to speak.

We demand accountability regarding Israel's military actions in the Occupied territories perpetrated by us and in our

98

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 21/11/2007 02:03:46

#88

Malachi

Are you trying to pretend you are a 'real' Israeli?

That there are dissenters that disagree with Israel is part of the strength of a free society.

So I ask again, where are the Palestinians who clamor for peace and to stop the senseless murders of Israelis?

As to your babble about homicide bombers, the fact that there have been no SUCCESSFUL ones of late means the security fence is working.

That Palestinians claim this land or that hardly makes all the lands they claim 'theirs.'

So when you say 'occupation' are you talking the West Bank? Jerusalem? Tel Aviv? Andalusia Spain (since Hamas claims it too)?

And claiming the kill count is always cute. More criminals are killed by cops than cops by criminals.
I suppose that in your 'logic' that means that the cops are the ones in the wrong.

Lastly, pretending 'I was a Palestinian I would fight with whatever I had for my peoples survival'.
Palestinians are not being sent to gas chambers. They are not being lined up by the hundreds of thousands as the Cambodians were. They are not being rounded up like the Armenians.In fact, their numbers are increasing.
So again, claim anything you want, but that sentence 'justified; the barbaric TACTICS of the Palestinians.

Pretend to care about Israel, but its a pretense at best.
And a bad one.

99

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 21/11/2007 02:07:10

Breaking the silence is an organization of 350 soldiers.

Of the 1.2 million men and women who serve in the IDF, there are 350 who clamor like this.

Malachi would have us believe the .03% are right and the 99.97% are wrong.

Tell us about the Neuri Kutra too while you are at it, Malachi

100

neoconned,

USA 21/11/2007 02:16:02

Lynne,
If Israel is the benevolent nation and perpetual victim of everyone else then why did they need to attack the SS Liberty and deliberately try to kill every man on board even thought they knew it was an American ship? Is this the action of a country only interested in self defense? I support Israel's right to exist but there are some strange things afoot when Israel has actively seized control of American foreign policy through agents such as AIPAC, boughten politicians and brain-washed, misled Christian voting blocs and then wield this usurped nation as a new weapon in their arsenal. Please tell me that you don't see anything wrong with this.

101

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 21/11/2007 02:18:17

Your AIPAC tactics are always the same.

Attack the person, never the message.

Go to the website I promote, then come back and tell me we are all liars and fakes.

Again, your credability is zero since you are no more than a distant observer of events wearing your AIPAC issue rose tint glasses.

I'm sure you think your truth rebuttal campaigne is worthwhile... if only you knew the harm you are doing.

Israel will prevail. But her destiny is in the hands of those that live here. Not you with your hardline kill em all approach.

At the end of the day... they are our neighbours, love them or hate them. ALWAYS HAVE BEEN, ALWAYS WILL BE.

Endless war is NOT an option.

102

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 21/11/2007 02:22:27

HomeSweet,

Got your AIPAC stats through. That was quick.

You people are efficient, I'll give you that.

But 350 IDF vets that have served in the occupied territories, or a handfull of AIPAC blogosphere propagandists. Hmmmm????

Now who should we believe???

103

Loch,

USA 21/11/2007 02:27:52

I don't know what one should call the forced separation of two peoples, nationalities, or cultures. This is just a language exercise, but I think the word "apartheid" means...um, "apart" as in, "separate, not joined". The blacks and whites in South Africa were separated b y a law called, in Afrikaans, "apartheid". In the US, before the passage of the Civil Rights Act, it was called "segregation" which means exactly the same as "apartheid".

Maybe there is a special Hebrew word for the enforced separation, segregation, and apartheid between Palestinians and Jews. Whatever the word might be, I think it would be safe to translate it as "apartheid", "segregation", or "enforced separation".

Hadrian built a wall between Scotland and England. That wall meant the zenith of the Roman Empire. From that moment on, the Empire began to shrink. The Great wall of China was built to declare that Han Chinese would never conquer Mongolia. It did not prevent the Mongolians from conquering China. The Berlin Wall marked the farthest Western Expansion of the Soviet Empire. The wall Americans are building on the southern border marks the farthest expansion in that direction of Anglo culture in North America. In every case, a wall is simply a declaration of defeat and an invitation to invasion delayed by decades, or perhaps centuries.

The best thing Israel could do for its citizens, and for the welfare of the world would be to incorporate the whole of Palestine in one unified nation in which all people, Jews and Palestinians, have full human and civil rights. The Wall, and the isolated pockets of territory that remain in Palestinian hands will only serve as perpetual cancers of violence, and will only foment more war and terror between Israelis and Palestinians, with the ever-present danger of destabilizing the entire world into a global conflict.

104

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 21/11/2007 02:34:51

"Malachi would have us believe the .03% are right and the 99.97% are wrong."

Propaganda at it's worst. There are many, many that are not members and DO speak out, and many support us financialy but dont speak out for many reasons. Family, careers, etc etc

Also growing numbers of serving soldiers and reservists now refuse to serve in the OT.

many pilots refuse combat missions targeting Palestinian territory.

Your claim of 99.97 against is as dishonest (and you know it) as you are.

Breaking the Silence is just one of many such groups.

Again.... 350 IDF vets that have served in the occupied territories, or a handfull of U.S. based AIPAC blogosphere propagandists. Hmmmm????

Now who should we believe???

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/news_item_e.asp?id=8

105

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 21/11/2007 02:52:24

Malachi

So every preson who dares to disagree with the great Malachi MUST be getting their information from AIPAC?

And as to dishonest, it would seem you would know a great deal about it. 350 out of 1.2 million is not dishonest, it is fact.

That you want to pretend that .03% is more relevant than 99.97% who disagree (OK, lets say you are right and there is TWICE that many, so then its .06% and 99.94%, still insignifigant).

But let me ask you to answer a question that you keep ducking,
You keep wanting to pretend that if Israel 'ended the occupation', then peace and happiness would break out and the whole world would shout Kumbaya and live in peace.
But when you say 'occupation' are you talking the West Bank? Jerusalem? Tel Aviv? Andalusia Spain (since Hamas claims it too)?

Atah yachol l'anot or rak l'kroh hara?
Can you answer a question?
Or is all you are capable of is throwing insults and pasting from websites?

106

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 21/11/2007 03:20:28

Andalusia Spain, Ta'ase li tova !

Not rocket science. the road map to peace can be followed with will from both sides.

Here's the main points.

PHASE I: Ending Terror and Violence, Normalizing Palestinian Life, and Building Palestinian Institutions


Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel’s right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate end to all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere.

Israeli leadership issues unequivocal statement affirming its commitment to the two-state vision of an independent, viable, sovereign Palestinian state living in peace and security with Israel, and calling for an immediate end to violence against Palestinians anywhere.

Palestinian institution-building includes drafting a constitution for Palestinian statehood and conducting free elections.

Israel withdraws from Palestinian areas occupied since September 2000, as security progresses, freezes all settlement activity, and dismantles outposts. It takes measures to improve the Palestinian humanitarian situation.

PHASE II: Transition


An independent Palestinian state is created with provisional borders and attributes of sovereignty. The Palestinian leadership continues to act decisively against terror and to build a practicing democracy based on tolerance and liberty.

An international conference will be convened by the Quartet after the Palestinian elections to support Palestinian economic recovery. Multilateral Middle East issues also will be addressed, including water, environment, economic development, refugees, and arms control issues.
PHASE III: Permanent Status Agreement and End of Israeli-Palestinian Conflict


Palestinian reform is consolidated and its institutions stabilized while effective security performance is sustained. Israeli-Palestinian negotiations aim at a permanent status agreement in 2005.

A second internatio

107

Loch,

USA 21/11/2007 03:22:25

At the fundamental level, there are only one or two spiritual truths...accept life on life's terms, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, try to make the world a better place, do the best right thing right now...
All the differences between religions are nothing more than frills made up in an effort to prove that I belong to a better group than you do. It's all just an elaborate scaffolding designed to buttress ill-formed and weak ego-structures.

The take-home point: WE ARE ALL THE SAME.

Religion may be silly, but after all, it is only a chosen ideology. Racial identity is more dangerous, because it is based on unchangeable physical characteristics.

Biologically, there is no race. We all have the same genes. Some are expressed and some aren't.

To the extent that Israelis are fearful of Palestinians because they are of a different "race", and to the extent that, as Jews, Israelis discriminate against Palestinians as Arabs, that constitutes racism.

On the ground, racism is characterized by fear, first and last. The subjugated group is seen to be out-breeding the dominant group ("Those____ breed like rats!").They are seen to be criminal in nature ("All______ are thieves!"), to be responsive only to violence from the dominant group ("All those______ understand is a swift kick!"), to have no human feelings or ambitions (Oh, a ____can't appreciate art or music- they only like the simple, animalistic things in life.")

I have heard Israelis, in media and in person, voice just these exact sentiments. As in the US before the Civil War, a culture of dominance by one race over another inevitably leads to spiritually corrosive feelings of superiority among the dominant group. It doesn't matter who the group is. Germans fell prey to this, as did the English/Dutch settlers of South Africa and the Ulster Scotsmen who settled the Southern US. Jews are not immune from racially ind

108

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 21/11/2007 03:31:06

If you tell me you have nothing to do with AIPAC. I'll take your word for it.

But you must be aware of their campaign and tactics of smear and fear, even against Jews and Israelis.

No doubt you'll disagree with the road map to peace....... if so, What is your proposal???

We can't wipe them out, we cant keep them in a massive prison camp like now, and we can't fight an endless war.

A fair and just peace for both people is the ONLY way forward.

And whilst so many in America beat their war drums on our behalf whilst enjoying a normal peaceful life with their family and kids, just remember that we to want this thing for ourselves, and (me personaly) for our neighbours the Palestinians.

109

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 21/11/2007 03:33:06

#106

Kol Ha Kavod.

I notice in Phase I, the Palestinians 'issue statements', while Israel acts.
I assume you mean they should act against terror as well.

Assuming thats what you meant, we agree.

In contrast to your earlier statments and rants, I do not think that Israel is all good and the Palestinians all evil.
I do believe the Palestinians have for too long been victims of their own and other Arab states propoganda and it has led them to have a desire to 'win their state by blood' rather than negotiation, and that has empowered the radicals and cowed the negotiators.
But Palestinians will and should have their state. The bordrs of which should be neither all of what Israel wants nor all of what they want.
They should have their refugee issues addressed, as should the 800.000 Jews kicked out of Arab lands.
The final status of Jerusalem, arms, water, etc should be decided by committee after confidence issues on both sides have been addressed.

Peace with Syria and Lebanon should be addressed together or seperately, but must incude verifiable cessasion of support of all terrrorist entities and severe penalties for breach (what those are, I couldnt say)

But p;ease explain this rational post in light of your earlier justification of Palestinians using mass murder, intentionally killing unarmed civillians, etc?

110

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 21/11/2007 03:37:03

Loch, USA.

Again very truthful and to the point.

Thank you.

111

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 21/11/2007 03:38:23

#108 Malachi

I do not beat a war drum.
I do believe that someone who looks rationally at both sides will definately come to the conclusion that there is wrong being perpetrated by both.
I also believe that the wrongness of lving in an area where one perhaps should not is not in any way equivalent to the murderous actions of too many of the Palestinians.

Shooting civillians on a rooftop is not a daily occurence.
Shooting missiles at civillian cities is.

Each of the examples you or Breaking the Silence gives of actions by the IDF probably do happen. And becasue of the size of the IDF and the constant barrage from the Palestinians, they probably happen with more regularity than I would believe or than Israel would like.

But it is still a fact that there has been only one Barch Goldstein. We all know his name and his shameful deed.
All over the world, Jews condemned his actions (a few did not, but they were the ultra-minority)

But we did not hold parades in his honor.
We did not name our children after him
We did not hand out sweets to celebrate his actions.

Look at what the Palestinians do.

Do you really not understand the difference?

112

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 21/11/2007 03:40:30

#107 Loch

Please explain in your world view how Israel has over 1 million Arab citizens, but the Palestinians insist on a future Juden Frie state?

Explain how that makes the Israelis racist?

113

Malachi,

Yafo (now visit UK isle of man) 21/11/2007 04:00:58

"But p;ease explain this rational post in light of your earlier justification of Palestinians using mass murder, intentionally killing unarmed civillians, etc?"

Show me where? You may cut n paste as I do.

But show me.

Nowhere have I justified mass murder and terror.

I have illustrated the illegal actions of IDF soldiers including the killing of unarmed palestinians.

And every human being has the right of self defence... including, whether you like it or not, palestinians. If an occupying arab force oppressed Israel, I would fight with whatever I could.

many, many IDF actions are unjustified, unnescessary, and downright cruel and illegal. What would you do if you were Palestinian.

Also, show my one of what you call my "rants" Where?

but as to the mainpart of your post, it seems we agree almost completely, and there you go!

Talk, argue, insult (whats an arguement without insults?), and we jews know all about argueing and insults..... point is, more often than not common ground can be found, exploited and a compromise reached.

That is what must happen with Israelis and the Palestinians.

Shalom aleichem. :-)

And goodnight. Another day.

114

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 21/11/2007 04:07:33

#113 Malachi

You would not murder their children
You would not use you children as mobile bomb launchers to kill them.
You said you would 'use any means', but that is not true.
These are means that are war crimes, that are Crimes Against Humanity. These actions the Palestinians regularly engage in.

115

Lynne,

USA 21/11/2007 04:22:43

#100
The Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was an error, largely attributable to the fact that it occurred in the midst of the confusion of a full-scale war in 1967. Ten official United States investigations and three official Israeli inquiries have all conclusively established the attack was a tragic mistake.
On June 8, 1967, the fourth day of the Six-Day War, the Israeli high command received reports that Israeli troops in El Arish were being fired upon from the sea, presumably by an Egyptian vessel, as they had a day before. The United States had earlier announced at the UN that it had no naval forces within hundreds of miles of the battle front on the floor of the United Nations a few days earlier; however, the USS Liberty, an American intelligence ship assigned to monitor the fighting, sailed into the arrived in the area. Following a series of United States communication failures, whereby messages directing the ship not to approach within 100 miles were not received by the Liberty,the ship moved within 14 miles of the Sinai coast , as a result of a series of United States communication failures, whereby messages directing the ship not to approach within 100 miles were not received by the Liberty. The Israelis mistakenly thought this was the ship doing the shelling their soldiers and directed war planes and torpedo boats to attack the ship. Thirty-four members of the Liberty's crew were killed and 171 were wounded.
Tapes of the radio transmissions made prior, during and after the attack do not contain any statement suggesting the pilots saw a U.S. flag before the attack on the ship. During the raid, a pilot specifically says, "there is no flag on her!" The recordings also indicate that once the pilots became concerned about the identity of the ship, by virtue of reading its hull number, they terminated the attack and they were given an order to leave the area. 27 Critics claimed the Israeli tape was doctored, but the National Secur

116

Lynne,

USA 21/11/2007 04:24:47

Numerous mistakes were made by both the United States and Israel. For example, the Liberty was first reported - incorrectly, as it turned out - to be cruising at 30 knots (it was later recalculated to be 28 knots). Under Israeli (and U.S.) naval doctrine at the time, a ship proceeding at that speed was presumed to be a warship. The sea was calm and the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Liberty's flag was very likely drooped and not discernible; moreover, members of the crew, including the Captain, Commander William McGonagle, testified that the flag was knocked down after the first or second assault.
According to Israeli Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin'smemoirs, there were standing orders to attack any unidentified vessel near the shore. 28 The day fighting began, Israel had asked that American ships be removed from its coast or that it be notified of the precise location of U.S. vessels. 29 The Sixth Fleet was moved because President Johnson feared being drawn into a confrontation with the Soviet Union. He also ordered that no aircraft be sent near Sinai.

A CIA report on the incident issued June 13, 1967, also found that an overzealous pilot could mistake the Liberty for an Egyptian ship, the El Quseir. After the air raid, Israeli torpedo boats identified the Liberty as an Egyptian naval vessel. When the Liberty began shooting at the Israelis, they responded with the torpedo attack, which killed 28 of the sailors.
Initially, the Israelis were terrified that they had attacked a Soviet ship and might have provoked the Soviets to join the fighting. 30 Once the Israelis were sure what had happened, they reported the incident to the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv and offered to provide a helicopter for the Americans to fly out to the ship and to any help they required to evacuate the injured and salvage the ship. The offer was accepted and a U.S. naval attaché was flown to the Liberty.
The Israelis were "obviously shocked" by the err

117

Lynne,

USA 21/11/2007 04:27:35

A U.S. spy plane was sent to the area as soon as the NSA learned of the attack on the Liberty and recorded the conversations of two Israeli Air Force helicopter pilots, which took place between 2:30 and 3:37 p.m. on June 8. The orders radioed to the pilots by their supervisor at the Hatzor base instructing them to search for Egyptian survivors from the "Egyptian warship" that had just been bombed were also recorded by the NSA. "Pay attention. The ship is now identified as Egyptian," the pilots were informed. Nine minutes later, Hatzor told the pilots the ship was believed to be an Egyptian cargo ship. At 3:07, the pilots were first told the ship might not be Egyptian and were instructed to search for survivors and inform the base immediately the nationality of the first person they rescued. It was not until 3:12 that one of the pilots reported that he saw an American flag flying over the ship at which point he was instructed to verify if it was indeed a U.S. vessel. 32
In October 2003, the first Israeli pilot to reach the ship broke his 36-year silence on the attack. Brig.-Gen. Yiftah Spector said he had been told an Egyptian ship was off the Gaza coast. "This ship positively did not have any symbol or flag that I could see. What I was concerned with was that it was not one of ours. I looked for the symbol of our navy, which was a large white cross on its deck. This was not there, so it wasn't one of ours." The Jerusalem Post obtained a recording of Spector's radio transmission in which he said, "I can't identify it, but in any case it's a military ship." 33
Many of the survivors of the Liberty remain bitter, and are convinced the attack was deliberate. None of Israel's accusers, however, can explain why Israel would deliberately attack an American ship at a time when the United States was Israel's only friend and supporter in the world. Confusion in a long line of communications, which occurred in a tense atmos

118

Lynne,

USA 21/11/2007 04:28:25

Retired Admiral, Shlomo Erell, who was Chief of the Navy in Israel in June 1967, told the Associated Press (June 5, 1977): "No one would ever have dreamt that an American ship would be there. Even the United States didn't know where its ship was. We were advised by the proper authorities that there was no American ship within 100 miles."
Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara told Congress on July 26, 1967: "It was the conclusion of the investigatory body, headed by an admiral of the Navy in whom we have great confidence, that the attack was not intentional." Twenty years later, he repeated his belief that the attack was a mistake, telling a caller on the "Larry King Show" that he had seen nothing in the 20 years since to change his mind that there had been no "coverup." 35
In January 2004, the State Department held a conference on the Liberty incident and also released new documents, including CIA memos dated June 13 and June 21, 1967, that1967, which say that Israel did not know it was striking an American vessel. The historian for the National Security Agency, David Hatch, said the available evidence "strongly suggested" Israel did not know it was attacking a U.S. ship. Two former U.S. officials, Ernest Castle, the United States Naval Attaché at the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv in June 1967, who received the first report of the attack from Israel, and John Hadden, then CIA Chief of Station in Tel Aviv, also agreed with the assessment that the attack on the Liberty was a mistake. 36
Israel apologized for the tragedy and paid nearly $13 million in humanitarian reparations to the United States and to the families of the victims in amounts established by the U.S. State Department. The matter was officially closed between the two governments by an exchange of diplomatic notes on December 17, 1987.

119

Lynne,

USA 21/11/2007 04:42:33

#100 Neoconned...does this help clear it up for you?...It was an accident..10 US investigations have declared that fact...but it is people like James Donald, GugaII, and the rest of the Anti-Israelans who refuse to acknowledge these facts.
No one has seized American foreign policy..the ONLY democracy in the Mid East is Israel surrounded by all Muslim Countries who do not want the Jews in their midst. What I see wrong is the Hamas Charter, the Hamas teachings to children, which I consider a form of child abuse, yet the worst kind. To indoctrinate children to believe they would be better off dead and martrys IS child abuse. When Hamas says it will continue to launch rockets from the West Bank, if the Israelis leave, there is something I see wrong.
They do not want peace..they will have this stranglehold on the Palestinian people for years to come.
Should Israel not be allowed to defend herself?

120

Loch,

USA 21/11/2007 06:46:58

As to the question of how to deal with Palestinians wanting a "Juden Frei" state, as it was put by Home-Sweet-Home...

The first prerequisite for deplorable action is a sense of victimization.

The main competition between the Israelis and the Palestinians is- "Who is the biggest victim?"

It's a tit-for-tat, eye for an eye dance of stupidity that rivals the perpetual wars fought by stone age cannibals in the New Guinea highlands.

Who wants to break the cycle? One group will have to decide to do it. They'll have to decide for peace unilaterally. White South Africans were afraid the ANC would drive them from their homes if they ever took over. It didn't happen.

Before the Second World War, Arabs welcomed Zionists into Palestine. It was only after the Zionist pioneers began to act as colonial overlords that the Arabs began to have second thoughts. Under Ottoman rule, there was a great tolerance for Jews, and the first Zionists went to Palestine under the sponsorship of the Pasha in Istanbul. I mention this only because I believe the Palestinians, if given a chance to live normal lives in a civil society that gave them a chance to hope and make their dreams come true, would be more interested in pursuing careers, and marriage and family and building a home and a life than they will be in "driving the Jews into the sea."

One of the main ideas that has to go by the wayside is the notion that Palestinians and Jews are different creatures. I often hear the cry "but the Palestinians will outbreed us!" as if they are some kind of vermin.
Judaism needs to become the sort of religion that one can adopt because one resonates with the ideas, just like Christianity, Islam, or Bhuddism. The racial, tribal aspect of Judaism is as outdated as it is in the tribes of the Amazon jungle, who consider themselves the only true humans, with all others an inferior subspecies only.

Once the racial, tri

121

Ponce,

USA 21/11/2007 07:46:04

We give those peopole, the Zionists, three to ten billions dollars a year for the killing of a few of their people in a foreign land by a foreign army? why?

They have stolen the land from the Palestinians and have created the biggest prison on Earth.

As long and the Zionists live in Palestine they will know no peace and will live in a state of war for ever.

Same goes for the USA in Iraq.

122

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 21/11/2007 09:41:02

#120 Loch

So again and again, its always the Israelis. The Arabs have 21 states the Jews have one and in your world, its all the Jews fault and they should be the ones to make all the changes. The Jews of Israel DO have a single unified state with civil rights for all ITS CITIZENS, Muslim and CHristian, Arab and Jew.
What you are stating is just another 'Israel has no legitamacy' load of bunkem, but from another perspective.
And your knowledge of Judiasm is absurd at best, racist in fact and ridiculous to the extreme. As is your knowledge of Zionism. (Hint POLITICAL Zionists went to the Parsha - but Zionism is well over 2,000 years old - "If I forget thee o Jersualem, let my right hand lose its cunning")

Judaism is NOT a universalist religion or people. Jews do NOT believe the whole world should be Jewish. Judaism;s concept of 'choseness' is the same as the idea that police are chosen for a particular task. Not better, not worse.

Your babble about how Jewish concepts you do not understand or know about are 'outdated' is fascinating, given your obvious lack of knowledge. But what is more revealing is your lack of desire to see this implicated in the truly tribal states of the Arab world.

When Iran cease to be a Muslim state. When Jews are free to practice their religion in Saudi Arabia, then talk to me about your ideas for Israel.

Until then, you are just another 'destroy Israel'-er. Every bit as much as Ponce below you and the rest of the race baiters.

While you may want Jews to dissapear that is not going to happen. We have a place in this world and a job and a mission.

Hate it, Hate us. Wrap your hate in pleasant sounding words, its still hate.
And its still malarkey

123

neoconned,

USA 21/11/2007 10:29:39

Lynne,
To say that the attack on the USS Liberty was an "accident" is either willful ignorance of the facts or a deliberate attempt to perpetuate the lies -- which are you attempting? I suggest you do investigate this beyond the white washed lies put out by the LBJ administration -- the same administration that staged the gulf of tonkin incident to justify war against VietNam. An exhaustive investigation of reports from those US sailors who were there leaves no doubt to how diabolical the event was. Even the Chicago Tribune ran a piece that exposed some of the war crimes committed in the attack. I am assuming that you are a Christian Zionist because of your unwavering defense of Zionism. Whether you admit it or not Christian Zionists are a brainwashed lot that resembles a cult with madmen like John Hagee acting as High Priests of the cult. I used to be one of you but then I took a look at how the zionist neocons and dual-citizens of Israeli in our government are leading this country to its end through deceit and manipulation (they lie to us to get us to go along with their objecitves) and I know that is not Godly methods. Allowing perpetual victim hood of one ethnic group to justify victimizing another ethnic group isn't Godly either. Furthermore, before the US attacked Iraq there were large Jewish communities who had lived in Iraq since the Babylonian captivity and no one -- not even Saddam -- had bothered these Jews who only fled Iraq after the reign of terror that came with the latest war on Iraq. Likewise, there are Jewish communities living in Iran who remain there of their own free will. Zionists will say these countries are Jew haters and we must destroy them but to the chagrin of the Zionists the Jewish communities in these countries require outside intervention in the form of war to get those deep seeded Jewish communities to leave. You see, I am pro Jew but I have removed my cult blinders so I could see that Zionism is a political/

124

neoconned,

USA 21/11/2007 10:57:43

Lynne,
If you are willing to know the truth then start with this news story.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/printedi...

125

James Donald,

Croix d'Torfin 21/11/2007 14:03:02

#123. neoconned, USA - You are wasting your time, mate. Granny Lynne has this answer stored ready to cut and paste every time the subject comes up. An Israeli propagandist through and through who thinks more of Israel than the country she lives in.

126

Loch,

USA 21/11/2007 15:56:39

Home Sweet Home had to resort to the ad hominem argument. This person did not respond to why I didn't think Palestinians would drive Jews from the land.

Israel can sink to the level of her enemies, and the result will be perpetual war...well, not exactly. the human will is a formidable thing. It is inevitable that an Arab nation will obtain a nuclear weapon. It's just a matter of time. It is true that as Israel is currently constituted, it remains an entity towards which every Muslim state is opposed, from Morocco to Indonesia.

It's 4 million Jews against 1.3 BILLION Muslims.

The US and the fractional reserve world banking system is all that keeps Israel alive. But the US is in trouble. This nation cannot afford to support Israel much longer. By afford, I speak strictly in financial terms. It is the average American worker that pays for Israel's life support. That dumb schmuck is leveraged to the hilt. The fraud based fiat money system is collapsing, and how will the US pay for Israel's defense? Combine peak oil with a bankrupt US economy and an ill-advised attack on Iran, and the US will be forced to abandon its support of Israel.

When an Islamic nation gets an atomic weapon, then Israel will be faced with a choice. She can either accept terms forced upon her by the Islamic nations, who, in vengeance, may very well indeed drive her Jewish populace into the sea. Or, Israel can exercise her "Masada" option, and throough a nuuclear exchange, go into a fiery oblivion, with nothing but the Phyrric satisfaction that millions of Muslims were destroyed along with her. It will be a horrific and unimaginable, awful, disgusting fate for everyone, the absolute most unwelcome worst case scenario anyone can imagine.

The so-called "two-state option" does nothing but delay the inevitable collision of Israel with these two unacceptable options.

However, if Israel is wise and proactively incorporates the Palestinians into

127

,

21/11/2007 17:07:22
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128

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares` 21/11/2007 17:20:23

#126 Loch

So now you move from the sly attacjs on Israel to the first hand ones.
Glad to see you are not hiding your objective any longer.

Factually, US aid to Israel amounts to less than 5% of her GDP. To pretend that "The US and the fractional reserve world banking system is all that keeps Israel alive" is a lie.

That you think that Israel should give up her soul to appease the Muslim fanatics is yet another symptom of the hatred you encapsulate in your 'arguement'.
But there are more Christians than Muslims. SHould Muslims just give up so that Christians do not nuke them? Or should all peoples give in to the most barbaric and the worst xenophobes.

That you want to pretend Israel is destined to dissapear is a result of your own preconvcievewd baiases and haterds.
That you want to pretend that the US relationship with Israel is not mutually beneficial and in fact benfits the US more than Israel (as several of OUR - are you American? - top generals and presidents have repeatedly stated is a result of your own stereotypes and prejudices.

But that you think that others share your hatred and fantasies is the result of your own psychoses. US support for ISrael remains at 60-80%. And no imaginary 'Israel lobby' covert behavior is the cause.
We the People are better than you the haters.
And we always will be.

129

,

21/11/2007 17:23:39
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130

Loch,

USA 21/11/2007 20:41:58

Again to Home Sweet Home, I don't hate Israel. But I am deeply troubled by policies that state has adopted that, if employed anywhere else in the world would be called racist and apartheid. The facts are these: Because of the unique situation that exists between the Israeli government and the Palestinians, Israel has earned the enmity of the Muslim world. I am not speaking to the fact that Israel was attacked in 1948. This was a major blunder on the part of the Arab nations. All aggression is wrong. Israel exercised her right of self defense. Again in 1967, Israel was attacked, and again, she exercised her right of self defense, but from there on, things changed. By occupying land that she took in the war, Israel overstepped her legal boundaries, as numerous UN resolutions attest.

It is here that Israel made a strategic blunder that has placed her in her current precarious situation. Since 1967, Israel has tried to claim, illegally, the territories of the west bank, for Jews only.

In so doing, Israel earned the enmity of the Muslim world. If at any time subsequent to 1967, Israel had decided to annex the west bank and make all residents there, Jew or non-Jew, full legal citizens, with full and comprehensive civil and human rights, then her surrounding neighbors would have been non-plussed- what could they complain about then? They would have noted that under a civil democracy, all the citizens of Israel enjoyed a higher standard of living, and full patriotism of all citizens, Jew or non-Jew.

The model of a secular state of many faiths and ethnic groups would have taken hold in the Middle East. One by one, as Israel forged ties with her neighbors through the efforts of her multi-ethnic citizenry, trade and the peace that accompanies it would have spread, and in its wake, the ideas of a free civil society and the principles of democracy. By 2007, the Middle East, with its oil wealth, would have been a model of peace and stability in the world.

131

Loch,

USA 21/11/2007 20:52:43

Continued: Israel may produce 80% of the GDP, but those numbers are a sham, in Israel as well as the rest of the world.

The fact is, the entire world sits atop a house of cards built by fractional banking and the creation of fiat currency. The sheckel is as worthless as the dollar and the euro. We are in the downward plunge of a Kondriateff TIDAL wave, globally, as the immense global debt must inevitably be absorbed by an extended deflationary period. The worlds bankers have endeavored to hold off this down cycle by the massive creation of cheap money, but this has only exacerbated the situation. The globe has already slipped over the edge. It's too late.

Add to this the spectre of Peak Oil, a highly educated Muslim world thoroughly polarized (for the above reasons) against Israel, and I cannot see how Israel's current attitude of belligerence will do anything except make things worse. Israels "GDP" is dependent upon trade with Europe and the US. What will Israel do when the west is bankrupt, and cannot buy her products? She has no natural resources except salt and potash, has no strategic reserves of anything except enriched plutonium, in the form of atomic weapons...I invite anyone to tell me how Israel, in the current world situation, plans to squeak through this one as a belligerent occupier with apartheid social policies. I think Israel needs to think outside the box, or no-one will survive.

132

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 21/11/2007 22:26:01

#130

Again you keep trying to pretend somethiong that is factually balderdash at best. Barely covered up hatred in reality.

Definition of APARTHEID: "An official policy of racial segregation formerly practiced in the Republic of South Africa, involving political, legal, and economic discrimination against non-whites."

Israel's policy toward the Palestinians is also being called "a new kind of apartheid, a crime against humanity, a form of genocide." Now let's take a look at this so-called" apartheid" within Israel. Within Israel today, Jews are a majority, but the large Arab minority (23% of total) are full citizens with voting rights and representation in the government. Under the former South African apartheid system, black South Africans could not vote and were not citizens of the country in which they were the overwhelming majority of the population.

The situation for Arab Palestinians in the [West Bank and Gaza] territories, won by Israel in the 1967 defensive war begun by three surrounding Arab armies, is different. Israel's very real security requirements, brought about by two violent insurrections [Intifadas] in these "occupied" territories, have forced Israel to impose restrictions on their Arab residents which are not [yet!] necessary INSIDE Israel’s pre-'67 borders. This is because the Arab Palestinians in the territories dispute Israel’s right to exist whereas South Africa's blacks did not seek the destruction of South Africa... only the removal of the White apartheid regime.

Up until September 2000, when the Arab Palestinians from the [West Bank and Gaza] territories began their second violent "Intifada" and unleashed their non-stop Jew-killing, suicide bombing spree, they had been allowed to work inside Israel Proper and receive similar pay and benefits as did their Jewish counterparts. They were also allowed to attend schools and universities (which Israel built for th

133

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21/11/2007 22:33:36
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