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Israel gives arms to Abbas

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Published Date: 22 November 2007
ISRAEL stepped up efforts yesterday to bolster Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas before next week's Middle East peace conference that is expected to launch formal negotiations on a Palestinian state.
Israel approved a shipment of ammunition and 25 armoured trucks to Mr Abbas's security forces in the West Bank, where his Fatah faction is dominant. Fatah lost control of Gaza in June to Hamas.

Israeli officials said another 25 vehicles could be sent if Mr Abbas's forces made progress in curbing militants.



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  • Last Updated: 21 November 2007 11:02 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Middle East conflict
 
1

Scullion,

Canada 22/11/2007 01:57:03

Oh, that'll endear Fatah to the ordinary Palestinian.
Could Israel give Hamas and its supporters a better incentive to keep up the fight?

2

American,

USA 22/11/2007 02:51:16

#1-scullion-Gotta support the lesser of the two evils. Let fatah get rid of hamas. Sounds like a plan to me.

3

Nuke EmAll,

22/11/2007 04:17:23

Stirring the pot.

4

Nuke EmAll,

22/11/2007 10:50:48

Is this not against the UN resolution that attempts to reduce arms in the area?

5

thatscottishwoman+00,

22/11/2007 11:12:01

An understanding of the aspirations of Palestinian civil society would highlight to the reader that both Israel and US military support to Abbas weakens, rather than strengthens, both him and his party.

Abbas does not have a mandate to determine the future of the Palestinian people. This action by Israel will only serve to create further division and further negative experiences for Palestinians and Israelis.

Furthermore, the proposals to be tabled at Annapolis are weak and do not address a number of key issues which are central to a final agreement that would ensure peace and security for both nations.

6

Homo Sapiens,

22/11/2007 11:13:34

The first intefada broke out after the signing of the Oslo accords and the setting up and arming of the Palestinians militias (both fatah and Hamas, as well as the Palestinian Authority police) by the Israelis. Since those days in the early 1990's the Palestinians have kept arming themselves, and current estimates are that there are more weapons in Gaza and the West Bank than there are people. the Palestinians are armed to their teeth with firearms, and have developed their own munitions, bombmaking, and rocket making factories. The Israelis don't seem to learn from past experiences. Arming Palestinians does not bring peace. But with such high quantities of munitions already in the hands of Palestinians, what different will a bunch of trucks make? They will only undermine the credibility of Abbas in the Palestinian street. Ultimately these weapons will be used against Israel and its civilian population.

7

Homo Sapiens,

22/11/2007 11:18:50

Thatscottishwoamn is amazing in her clearvoiance... Perhaps she could scoop every newspaper in the world by revealing to all of us what are the proposals to be tabled at annapolis? It would appear that she has the ear(s) of both Olmert and Abbas, not to mention Bush and Rice!

Abbas DOES HAVE a mandate to negotiate on behalf of the Palestinian people, ALL OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, including those being controlled by Hamas (as governed is not applicable here). Abbas won more than 79% of the Palestinian popular vote when elected to be President after the death of Arafat, a level of support even Arafta himself did not enjoy in the latter years of his corrupt government. There are few leaders in the world who have received such support from their electorate (those elections were judged fair by International Observers).

Perhaps thatscottishwoman should check her facts and separate them from her opinions in the future!

8

,

22/11/2007 11:37:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1165035, Article id was mapped to record!
9

Carolyn 1,

Massachusetts, usa 22/11/2007 14:05:41

The attendance at the conference of Syria and Saudi Arabia is a window of opportunity; can they 1st-
stop bickering the details, and embrace the big picture and help move forward their region into the 21st century
2nd- will they put their money where their mouth is- and with all their rich spoils from oil, give financial assistance to the people to rebuild in the regeneration of a safe, homogenous and profitable society,
and 3rd, can there be peace when there is no tolerance?- each sovereign must accept nationalism - that each person is an individual born with a heritage: Only together can the parts make a whole.

The schoolyard bully cannot lead a community, he only inspires other bullies to emulate him, which makes the community rebel in self-defense while being ripped apart.

10

Number 6,

Reading my postcards from labour around the world. 22/11/2007 14:07:45

Only free and fair elections can bring peace between the palastinian factions. Arming them seems beyond madness and will surely increase attacks on Israel. Is that what they want?

The bullet never ever brings democracy.

11

James Donald,

Croix d'Torfin 22/11/2007 14:11:27

Just what the region needs, more arms.
"Israeli officials said another 25 vehicles could be sent if Mr Abbas's forces made progress in curbing militants" or "if you supress these groups we don't like, we will give you more arms to make your faction stronger".

12

Findlay Thompson,

22/11/2007 14:35:05

I'm very concerned posters.

There has been no comment from "Homey/who cares". I hope he/she is ok!

13

James Donald,

Croix d'Torfin 22/11/2007 14:36:21

#12. Findlay Thompson - Homey/who cares?

14

Carolyn 1,

Massachusetts, usa 22/11/2007 14:38:14

#10 six
"The bullet never ever brings democracy."
There is a list to the contrary that 'a bullet DOES brings democracy'.

Being American, the first quote that comes to my mind: "the shot heard around the world" - a shot that led to American democracy.
Another shot heard around the world would be the assassination of Austrian Franz Ferdinand...

certainly the bullet that killed Hitler led to the democracy of Germany

15

Carolyn 1,

Massachusetts, usa 22/11/2007 14:46:43

12
It's Thanksgiving.
He's probably eating or stringing christmas lights or driving to where they are eating or stringing christmas lights
My turkey feast isn't for 6 hrs. but it smells really good already

16

,

22/11/2007 15:10:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1165815, Article id was mapped to record!
17

Lobeydoser,

22/11/2007 15:15:20

Strange that no-one seems to care that the 25 armoured cars destined for Fatah are being suggested, supplied & sent by the Russians.

18

Carolyn 1,

Massachusetts, usa 22/11/2007 15:21:12

despite minorities constantly pushing their personal agenda onto the majority, Thanksgiving is still legal

19

Scientific Method,

Edinburgh 22/11/2007 16:49:41

"The schoolyard bully cannot lead a community, he only inspires other bullies to emulate him, which makes the community rebel in self-defense while being ripped apart."

Are you talking about the US in Iraq?

20

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 22/11/2007 17:09:35

On this day on which we give thanks, I am thankful that I know that throughout history, there have always been those who have hated us and tried to kill us, those who said we should just dissapear and those who tried to make us dissapear; those who have lied about who we are and what we believe and those who have tried to maek who we are a cause of slander.
And I am thankful that they have always wound up on the dustheap of history - The Assyrians and the Soviets, the Amelekites and the Nazis, the Inquisitors and the wanton haters on this board - remembered perhaps, but signifigant more in their passing than in their brief stay.

So to you, those who hate and spew, I say have a happy and prosperous day. We will be here long after you have dissapeared into history or into oblivion.

Have a Happy Turkey Day (or just a Happy Thursday if you prefer).

21

Mr thatscottishwoman,

22/11/2007 17:37:52

8. thatscottishwoman+00

Been hitting the bottle a bit early again I see.

22

57Nomad,

california 22/11/2007 18:47:51

Today Americans give thanks to Divine Providence for having sustained, nourished, and protected us. Time to count blessings.

23

Jasper42,

23/11/2007 00:31:02

I wonder if these armoured vehicles from Russia will work better than the air defence system they sold to Syria.

24

thatscottishwoman+00,

23/11/2007 12:19:31

#7 Homo Sapiens and Moderators: my post at #8 which has been deleted:


"8. thatscottishwoman+00 / 11:37am 22 Nov 2007

#7 Homo Sapiens:

Draft copy of document can be found here:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/926774.html

Abbas DOES NOT have a mandate TO DETERMINE THE FUTURE of the Palestinian people that right lies with the people themselves, the above mentioned document does not address the aspirations and fundamental rights of Palestinian civil society."

25

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 23/11/2007 13:24:52

#24 scottish

Abbas is the legitamately elected President of the Palestinian People.

Funny how you always support Hamas because of democracy, yet after their illegal coup, the legitamate President uses his legal powers to sack the government. And that you do not support.

I understand it now - you support only that which agrees with you and attempt to delegitamize that which does not.

26

bill2,

23/11/2007 13:55:25

25. Home

Legitimate - no way.

Abbas is Israel's puppet; there to pretend that Palestine has some sort of government to enable Israel to escape its obligations as occupier.

From your #20 I get the impression that you are American celebrating thanksgiving. Is that the celebration of the European invaders colonising someone else's country - sounds familiar. Now I know where you get your ideas from.

27

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 23/11/2007 14:05:23

#26 Bill2

Is truth against your religion?


Abbas achieves landslide poll win
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4160171.stm

That you only support those who hate peace is obvious. But to pretend Abbas is not the legitamately elected president just because he siupports peace is inane.
Even for you

28

thatscottishwoman+00,

23/11/2007 14:23:48

#25 HSH:

Unless you consider Palestine an autocracy Abbas DOES NOT have a mandate to DETERMINE THE FUTURE of the Palestinian people, that right lies with the people themselves.

You are correct, I do support that which meets my core principles and beliefs and consequently challenge that which does not. Don't you?

29

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 23/11/2007 14:40:40

#28 Scottishwoman

I suppose the Scottish government asks you what you think on every issue, from taxation to roads to foreign treaties? No?
Then surely they hold referendums on everyone of these issues? No?
Well then, I suppos they must be an autocracy accoding to your definiton?

The peace treaty between Israel and Egypt was made by Begin and Sadaat. As legal and legitamte Heads of State, they are empowered to do exactly what you are trying to claim the legal and legitamate Head of State for the Palestinians cannot do. Are you saying the Palestinians are not able to act like responsible members of the international communitiy? Or are you trying to force your particular vision, regardless of the legality or rights thereof?
Some nations have rules which neccesitate treaties to be validated by their representatives, some do not. If the Palestinians have this rule, then I'm certain it will be applied. If they do not, it will not.

And my statement was not about your support or lack thereof. Support who you like or who agrees with you. That makes sense.
My concern is not with your support, it is with your attempt to delegitamize anyone or anything that dares to disagree with your perceptions.

I disagree with just about every move Bush has made in his presidency. That said, he is still the President of the United States of America, and I would not state that he is not allowed to act as such just because I vehemently disagreew with him.

That would be dishonest. See the point?

30

bill2,

23/11/2007 14:41:08

27. Home

You beat me to it - I was going to use the same link.

"the turning-away of hundreds of voters from a big Israeli-run polling station in East Jerusalem. Some chaotic scenes were reported there. Voters complained that Israeli officials were not allowing them to vote"

What price democracy when you have a fascist occupation?

The concept that anyone other than you and yours should have a right to self-determination is obviously alien to you.

31

bill2,

23/11/2007 14:46:31

29. Home

"I disagree with just about every move Bush has made in his presidency. That said, he is still the President of the United States of America, and I would not state that he is not allowed to act as such just because I vehemently disagreew with him. That would be dishonest. See the point?"

Where is the dishonesty in trying to unseat a criminal? Do you tolerate his illegal acts just because he sits in the White House?

32

thatscottishwoman-00,

23/11/2007 14:50:51

#28

Troll

33

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 23/11/2007 15:00:09

#30 Bill2

Votes from one polling station do not disqualify an entire election.
This is especially humorous coming from you who constantly refers to Hamas as legitamately elected since it was the same electoral process.

As to your comments in #31, actions which Bush takes that are illegal, I fight with every legal tool I have. I lobby my congressmen, I write letters, I vote, I campaign.

That does not mean his tax policies, which I disagree with are idelegitamate because I disagree with them.

Try honesty. It might change your outlook

34

Megyn,

UK 23/11/2007 15:00:55

31. bill2

Of course you do, you have Bush derangement syndrome.

35

Lynne,

USA 23/11/2007 15:14:29

The basic principle of this is that FIRST...Israel must be recognized...otherwise there is no reason to even continue.
As long as the Charter of Hamas reads that they are determined to cause the destruction of Israel where can anything go from that?

If there are over 55 countries making up the Organization of the Islamic Conference and if the 22 members of the Arab League are accepted as Arab States..why cannot Israel be the one Jewish State?

36

bill2,

23/11/2007 16:09:19

35. Lynne

"why cannot Israel be the one Jewish State?"

Because many Jews are opposed to Zionism and Israel.

37

thatscottishwoman+00,

23/11/2007 16:25:15

#29 HSH:

Fair comment, but it is important to compare like with like. The impact that Scottish Government domestic or regional policy and practice has on the outside world is minimal, the same cannot be said of Palestinian domestic or regional policy and practice.

I stand by my assertion regarding Abbas in the context of this discussion and please note my words:

"Abbas does not have a mandate to DETERMINE THE FUTURE of the Palestinian people"

Any proposal that does not have the full backing of civil society will fail. The draft document I linked to does not address a number of key aspirations of the Palestinian people yet is presented on their behalf as a vehicle for achieving a final agreement, it is therefore, in my opinion, open to challenge.

You said:

"I disagree with just about every move Bush has made in his presidency. That said, he is still the President of the United States of America, and I would not state that he is not allowed to act as such just because I vehemently disagreew with him.

That would be dishonest. See the point?"

I do not see how you consider it dishonest to raise a vote of no confidence against a state leader. I would see this as civil society taking direct action to affect change in how their state is governed or represented at the local or international levels.

As an aside (and to give you a better understanding of what drives me) our individual political beliefs tend to dictate how we view leaders, being an anarchist I prefer that the "state" or community be managed by the people so have little problem with challenging "leaders" and their actions and intentions.

38

Carolyn 1,

Masachusetts, usa 23/11/2007 19:37:02

#36
an outright lie:
why you choose to say it anyway is the unfortunate mire

39

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 23/11/2007 19:55:41

#38 Carolyn

As I pointed out earlier, Bill is allergic to truth

Each lie he posts gets disproved and then he slinks away to post a new lie.

40

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 23/11/2007 20:01:45

#37 Scottishwoman

THe draft document also does not fulfill the nationalist aspirations of many Israelis.
Compromises will need to be made by BOTH sides. To continue to claim that all the desires of the PAlestinians must need be met is (to use a word I seem to be forced to use much lately) absurd. Why not just state the Palestinians should agree to all Israeli demands. That would be equally absurd.

If you need a better analogy, use the Prime Minister of Britian. His policy decisions DO influence the entire nation. Some of those decisions need to be approved by Palestiment, some do not.
Abbas is the legitamately elected President of the Palestinians. As such, he has the right to make foreign policy and to sign treaties (I believe). If the Palestinian government disagree with his decision, they have redress.

That said, the fact that the draft agreement does not give the Palestinians everything they demand should not be a reason to veto it. Otherwise, they will continue to be stuck in their perpetual state of 'All or Nothing" with the inevitable result of Nothing.

By NOT lostening to voices such as yours, perhaps the Palestinians can finally miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

41

bill2,

23/11/2007 21:39:56

38. Carolyn 1
39. Home

You are both so deep in lies and deception that you have lost sight of the truth. Eat your words.

Israel cannot be the one Jewish State because many Jews are opposed to Zionism and Israel.

Some sites:

http://www.jewishpeacefellowship.org
Founded by Rabbis in 1941. Supports conscientious objectors.

Tikkun Magazine - http://www.tikkun.org/
Pacifist voices of conscience and reason, edited by Rabbi Michael Lerner in San Francisco.

Yesh Gvul - http://www.yesh-gvul.org/english.html
The movement for soldiers of the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) refusing to serve in the Occupied Territories.

Gush Shalom - http://www.gush-shalom.org/english/index.html
The website of the prominent Israeli peace movement features thought-provoking articles by its dissident director, Uri Avnery.

PEACE NOW! - http://www.peacenow.org.il/English.asp
Israeli pacifists for Palestinian self-determination within 1967 borders.

Not In My Name: Taking Action for a Just Peace in Israel and Palestine - http://www.nimn.org
NIMN, based on their belief in Judaism, oppose "Israeli Government brutality against Palestinians".

Junity - Jewish Unity for a Just Peace - http://www.junity.org/
Jewish peace groups which agree on ending abuses of Palestinian human rights and Israel's self-destructive settlement policy.

B'tselem - http://www.btselem.org

42

thatscottishwoman+00,

23/11/2007 21:48:07

#40 HSH:

"Compromises will need to be made by BOTH sides."

Yes, I agree and have stated as much in the past.

However, as I said earlier, the document does not address key aspirations of the Palestinian people therefore if this draft is not substantially modified before it is tabled it will fail. That will be the redress of the people.

43

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 23/11/2007 23:54:37

Bill2

Whenever you try to show you are reasonable, you offset it with this nonsense.

Of the 12-15 million Jews worldwide, your combined web pages illustrate less than a few thousand - an insignifigant number.

There are many more Arabs who are not Muslim. So why arent you yelling and screaming about the fact that every Arab state has Islam as its official religion?

Like I said, you are allergic to truth.

44

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 23/11/2007 23:56:15

#42

And as I said, it also does not address all the aspirations of the Israeli people.

If the Palestinians continue to demand all or nothing., then they will continue to get nothing.

Compromises means they dont get it all. So how can you claim you understand that and then in the next sentence state they must get everything?

45

Home_Sweet_Home,

Who Cares 23/11/2007 23:57:26

#41 Bill Bill Bill Bill

None of those sites say Israel should not be a Jewish State.
Since Zionism, by definition means that the Jews should have the right to have their own state in their own land, your sites prove nothing.

Do you type just to see yourself in print?

46

Carolyn 1,

Massachusetts, usa 24/11/2007 00:26:08

#39 Homesweethome
:)

To bill the delusioned
From what I have read, there are maybe five congregations worldwide of jews who do not support the zionist idea that Israel is 'home'- they are very devout sects of judaism- to say they represent or voice the heart of judaism is not true because they see themselves as having a higher devotion to their religion. To understand their devotion is impossible unless you understand their religion.
However, Bill and the likes of Ahmadinejad take hold of this religous piety and use it as propaganda- I'm tired of bill's repeated use of it since he has no understanding of their passion

47

Lynne,

USA 24/11/2007 00:32:45

bill2..you ae off the wall...many? Jews...How many? Many Chritstians want to Israel a Jewish State. The whole point...is if there can be Arab States, Muslim States, Catholic States, Church of England States, etc. YOU can bet there can be 1 State for Jews.
We don't need your permission, or even care if you like it. And until you understand, that Jews DO and can have the same rights as other countries, you will never change.
Bury your head...there will never be peace until Israel is recognized.

48

,

24/11/2007 00:47:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
49

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24/11/2007 00:59:17
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