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Victory for Evening News campaign as prams to get space on buses

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Published Date: 24 March 2009
MUMS were today celebrating victory in their fight with Lothian Buses after the firm announced plans to trial new pram-friendly vehicles.
The company plans to bring in the new buses with dedicated spaces for prams and buggies in June, and expects they will make up half the fleet in two or three years' time.

It comes after more than 2000 people signed a petition criticising the company's controversial decision to impose a ban on unfoldable prams to keep wheelchair spaces free. The Scottish Parliament called on Lothian Buses to find a compromise last month and three of Edinburgh's leading disability charities wrote an open letter calling for a solution to be found.

Ian Craig, managing director of Lothian Buses, said the company had held extensive talks with passenger groups, disability groups and trade unions. If the design is approved, the new double-decker and single-decker buses will be on the streets in June.

He said: "We are investigating the scope for introducing a space for a pushchair. However, this will not be allowed to compromise the fundamental principle that we continue to do everything we can to ensure that the designated wheelchair space is available for a wheelchair user whenever they wish to travel."

The company was the only one in Scotland to ban prams and buggies. Although it was not a new policy, it only began strictly enforcing it in July last year, claiming it was in line with the Disability Discrimination Act.

Catriona Black, 35, from Willowbrae Road, who is expecting her second child in June, started the petition seven months ago. The campaigners agreed that wheelchair users should have priority, but said prams should be allowed on if there was space.

She said: "This is a really great achievement for the long term. In some ways it's more than we hoped for. We're very keen that the pilot scheme is successful.

"This has been a difficult struggle but we are glad to see they've come round to our way of thinking. This will make life much easier for a lot of people. It's just a shame they haven't lifted the ban on all buses."

Campaigners had been supported by the Royal College of Midwives and Unite's Community Practitioners' and Health Visitors' Association.

Three disability groups, ECAS, Capability Scotland and Edinburgh Disability Equality Forum, had taken part in discussions with Lothian Buses to try to find a solution. City councillors had also called for a "common sense solution" to be found.

SNP Lothians MSP Shirley-Anne Somerville, who has a baby daughter, championed the cause in parliament. Today she said: "The campaigners have always been clear that this isn't about wheelchairs versus prams – it's about accommodating everyone."

Campaigner Angela Gullone, 38, a researcher from Corstorphine, added: "This is fantastic. I think it will be welcomed by all mums with babies, as well as the wider travelling public."


The full article contains 493 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

allknowing,

24/03/2009 11:51:43
Imagine bringing a kid into this world, and having to depend of public transport!

Whast happens when its unwell, force the ill kid to walk to bus, wait for bus, tavel on bus, and then walk again to the Doctors. Shamefull.
2

alfonsa pedrosa,

embra 24/03/2009 11:53:20
By the the time the passenger struggles to get her bairns pram on, the timetable the busses run to is well gone.
3

Amenemhat,

24/03/2009 11:58:11
#2 they have a timetable?
4

Glenda,

blah 24/03/2009 11:58:16
Their bullying tactics won......poor show!
5

,

24/03/2009 11:59:34
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6

simonp,

edinburgh 24/03/2009 11:59:55
great what with prams, tables, luggage areas where will paying passengers go?
7

Glenda,

blah 24/03/2009 12:03:21
Since when was this an "Evening News" campaign? I thought they were only reporting what these mothers were doing.
8

,

24/03/2009 12:03:33
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9

,

24/03/2009 12:05:00
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10

AntiEdinburghWhingers,

24/03/2009 12:12:45
And this now presumably means less seats on the buses for those who actually need them most: the elderly and infirm. I bet the selfish mothers with their nonsense 'travel systems' didn't even blink an eyelid at that. It's all just 'me me me' with them: and shame on the MSPs for falling for the 'Lothian Buses have banned babies' nonsense.

This is a victory for bullying, intimidation, whinging, moaning, self-righteousness and ignorance.

Why should the decent citizens have to pay to design our buses around their CHOICE of equipment? Should they not have concentrated their campaign on the manufacturers to come up with a design suitable for use on public transport? No - they picked on Lothian Buses because they are an easy target being locally owned.

People with electric wheelchairs or mobility scooters can't use buses for exactly the same reason: buses are buses, not mobile community centres. They are a moving vehicle with obvious restrictions, and a duty to present the best possible service to as many people as possible, not just pander to the selfish few.
11

,

24/03/2009 12:12:53
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12

Simon M,

Edinburgh 24/03/2009 12:13:03
Disappointing news. These selfish mums have put themselves ahead of the needs of disabled people.
13

AntiEdinburghWhingers,

24/03/2009 12:16:13
Oh, and if you look at the petitions page on the Scottish Parliament website you will see that the campaigners did not have universal support, as implied by Hazel Mollison: there were significant objections from many different groups, highlighting key concerns about the campaign, and the fact that parents could easily adapt their CHOICE of equipment to suit public transport. Those with no other option but to use wheelchairs should of course take priority, and I am glad that that principle has been upheld, albeit at the cost of the rest of the travelling public.
14

young and balding,

Edinburgh 24/03/2009 12:17:46
Are you sure about this, or is this just Ms Mollison's interpretation? This article doesn't represent the quote they publish half way down from Ian Craig, Managing Director of Lothian Buses.I would not open the champagne yet Mums!
15

Cod,

24/03/2009 12:18:27
A truly stunning campaign and a truly stunning victory.

This surely ranks up there with Live Aid.

"Give us yer f*ckin prams", said an angry Bob Geldof. The Rat.
16

sick of edinburgh,

24/03/2009 12:23:16
2000 signatures in a city of how many? bad day for democracy indeed. My old mum has an invalid scooter and my old dad would like to sit in a golf buggy on his way to the course. I want a campaign to get their 'prams' on the bus.
17

Realist,

Edinburgh 24/03/2009 12:24:55
Don't worry when we get our much sought after and loved trams everyone has to stand and there won't be any buses as they will have been sold to First and Stagecoach to cover the huge over run on the tram project.

Happy days all because some councillors wanted their picture taken in front of a shiny tram.
18

elayne,

24/03/2009 12:25:55
heard 2 fat teen mums moaning about how"mothers should come 1st"on bus the other week,(had several kids,2 prams in tow)squeezed there fat azzes and kids,prams into disbled space and then grumped about it for whole journey(approx 3 stops)says it all really!
19

Road Raga,

EDINBURGH 24/03/2009 12:27:26
spot on #11 !
20

James (1),

24/03/2009 12:27:40
This child in the buggy looks as if he should be paying full fare.
21

Bill MacD,

24/03/2009 12:30:59
To describe toddlers as "campaigners" is a disgusting abuse. It's sickening when parents or newspapers seek to represent children who are far too young to have an opinion of their own as if they have support someone's pet cause. It so happens I agree with their issue. But I despise them for using their children in this way, who are not in a position to give informed consent.

It's almost as bad as religious fanatics who force their children to go through the motions of worshiping a deity of their parents choosing long before they have the capacity to decide for themselves whether they want to buy into such irrational nonsense. Pure mental abuse.
22

nSyratzcGlaw,

24/03/2009 12:34:25
Never mind, if you read it properly nothing is actually going to happen - or * it might * in the future.
23

Angry Haggis,

24/03/2009 12:38:03
What the hell happened to 'Common Sense'....?

1. Wheelchair space is vacant, buggy mum's can use it.
2. Wheelchair space is occupied by a wheel chair, tough titty buggy mum, wait for the next bus.
3. Wheelchair space is occupied by buggy mum and wheel chair user requires it, wheel chair user gets priority.


24

AntiEdinburghWhingers,

24/03/2009 12:39:07
Notice that the pushchair used in the photo for this article is exactly the sort that the mothers have been saying they cannot use?! It is a foldaway buggy perfectly suited to public transport! The child's emotional development will be damaged, along with its spine - all courtesy of nasty evil baby-slaying Lothian Buses!

OK, the child is older, and therefore it is less of an issue, but shouldn't the Evening News have been a little more honest and shown a parent with a ridiculously large 'travel system', rather than imply that the parents shown in the photo are completely unable to use public transport?
25

the dog,

way oot west 24/03/2009 12:40:18
i cant see the victory here, so the new buses will have space for buggies however the other 500 vehicles wont and it will be many years before all vehicles are of the new type,
either that or the cooncil will have sold lothian to another operator to pay for the tram fiasco and they will only be interested in seats for fare paying bums not free traveling tots.
26

AntiEdinburghWhingers,

24/03/2009 12:47:08
Just for clarification, comment no26, the mothers have said they cannot use that sort of pushchair because of issues with spinal damage and emotional development - not suggesting that they were saying they cannot use them because of the ban, if you get my drift... But my point is that they are using them, despite saying they were unsuitable...
27

,

24/03/2009 12:49:02
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28

JT,

24/03/2009 12:50:05
Thats all we need more obnoxious parents on the bus, its me me me me with them! On my bus just after 745am we have two mums one with 2 kids and the other with 1 and all three kids scream the place down most mornings - can we get a campaign against this please??
29

sick of edinburgh,

24/03/2009 12:56:50
#28, humans have evolved and babies now lie flat in the womb, hence the need for them to lie flat in a pram, to preserve their spines...or is that a spineless lie?
30

Inight,

Edin 24/03/2009 12:58:57
These Mums should be thankful there's any space on buses at all, when I was younger we grew up in an area that had Stagecoach buses ie. steps up and no space for buggies, my Mum never had any problem carting two small kids, a folded up buggy and the week's shopping on and off buses.
31

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 24/03/2009 13:00:12
Still not able to comment on Nigel Griffith article. Obviously, as a friend of Maggie Brown, the word has gone out from the PM's Office.

About this article. Will they be allowed onto Trams?
32

nSyratzcGlaw,

24/03/2009 13:02:08
33 yep. basically.
33

Noodle doodle,

24/03/2009 13:07:11
what about PRAMS ON TRAMS?

34

MrCalm,

Edinburgh 24/03/2009 13:07:53
75 new buses on the way but (as poster 27 points out)these won't cover every route in the Lothians and the majority of the fleet will remain the same. Hopefully the areas proposed for prams on the new buses will have fold up seats so for majority of journeys the elderly will still find somewhere to sit. If not, we are going back to the type of buses used in London in the 60s and 70s that had more space for standing passengers than seated ones. Come on all your pram and buggie designers - how about some better compact and foldable ones for traveling on public transport???
35

Duncan in Edinburgh,

24/03/2009 13:07:57
#33 As with all such stories, until it is clear that no legal action will be taken concerning the allegations, they can't allow comments. It's not a conspiracy.
36

i a n,

Edinburgh 24/03/2009 13:24:28
I thought Lothian Buses, like other companies, was suffering financially, hence the recent fare increases. Where is the money coming from to pay for new buses?
37

Susy412,

Edinburgh 24/03/2009 13:25:15
I don't get it! 24 years ago my mum easily got on & off the 'old style' LRT buses or walked everywhere, 13 years ago she was doing the same with my sister. I understand if it's a long journey but can't these folks just walk when it's only a few stops? (seen multiple times)
#25 After seeing a bus driver refuse a wheelchair user access to the bus because someone had a buggy in the space I don't think there's much hope!
38

hondo,

24/03/2009 13:27:58
ban prams,trams & mams
39

Arrow,

edinburgh 24/03/2009 13:29:03
they will have to do a survey to find out where the majority of single mothers and their weans live and divert the buses around there. but what of the T**m. will these deprived mummys have to walk to the restricted route of this beast or will they have to have special taxis to take them to the tram stops?
the lunatics have taken over the madhouse that is Edinburgh.
40

,

24/03/2009 13:46:40
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41

Doggonedude,

24/03/2009 13:48:35
Well done EEN. Another reason why local papers matter.
42

,

24/03/2009 13:49:06
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43

sick of edinburgh,

24/03/2009 13:55:12
#41 do single mothers live in areas together and easy to track down in surveys? Are single mothers bad in your opinion? It sounds as if you think so. There are many reasons why mothers are single, death of a husband being one of them. You are an ignorant muppet and further more, your comment has nothing to do with the story. Its about prams on buses, but maybe the words were too hard for you to read so you just saw ladies with babies and your neanderthal brain guessed the rest.
44

totally indecent,

24/03/2009 14:22:09
Kenster - All we have ever said is that you are not, and never should be, entitled to board buses with your huge 4x4 contraptions which you call prams. That is why the whole furore started. It was never about normal mothers boarding buses with normal sized buggies. It was always about selfish mothers with huge prams who were born with the opinion that they are better than the rest of us and we should all bend down and grovel and maintain their RIGHT to push these monster prams wherever they may choose.
45

nSyratzcGlaw,

24/03/2009 14:23:26
49 agree totally.
46

hibsmad,

24/03/2009 14:35:09
75 new buses but not 1 new one on the 44 route. where does that lady stay????
47

Duncan in Edinburgh,

24/03/2009 14:43:06
#46 Now that you've dismissed the easy targets, try addressing the real issues: there was never a ban on prams - there was the introduction of wheelchair spaces; why criticise LB for this major improvement? The mums' campaign did not call for separate provision for prams - it called for sharing of the wheelchair provision; how could that not be at the expense of wheelchair users?

I've proposed a simple solution to this before. Parents with non-foldable buggies should be required to purchase a day ticket, and board on the agreement that they must get off the bus if a wheelchair user wants to get on.
48

Vic,

Edinburgh 24/03/2009 15:17:38
#49

Spot on. You can get foldable buggies suitable from birth anyway, such as the maclaren techno xt, mamu mu2 etc. It's more about keeping hold of the ludicrous oil-tanker sized 'travel system' status symbols.
49

Incandescent,

24/03/2009 15:26:19
#22 "Bill McD"

"It's almost as bad as religious fanatics..."

Woops! Blowing your cover again there, Jenny.
50

Glenda,

blah 24/03/2009 15:36:18
The Evening News are definitely forcing the agenda here.

Read their OPINION printed in today's news rag:

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/opinion/Bus-pram-ban-39Positive-move.5101417.jp
51

sazm,

edinburgh 24/03/2009 15:39:18
What is quite sad is the amount of people who spent so much time whinging about this topic. Bet half of you's don't get on buses anyway! I drive and don't need to take my Kids on buses but get a grip, you all forgetting you were once kids and i bet u wouldn't call your parents selfish for taking you on a bus.
52

Incandescent,

24/03/2009 16:03:55
#45 sick of edinburgh

"#41 do single mothers live in areas together and easy to track down in surveys?"

There are, what you could call, "hotspots"...
53

Koffindodger,

Edinburgh 24/03/2009 16:10:13
I am so glad I don't have to use buses more than once every couple of years as after reading the some of these comments its obvious that the smell I thought was a mixture of fags and urine is actually fags and bile.

Let me get this straight some of you people actually seem to hate mothers and children!
54

Duncan in Edinburgh,

24/03/2009 16:29:41
#54 You are obsessed with multiple personalities! It's perfectly believable that there are many people who are angry about religious people indoctrinating their children. For me your comment says more about you than about Bill McD - you never miss an opportunity to play the man instead of the ball.
55

Duncan in Edinburgh,

24/03/2009 17:02:20
#62 The mothers' campaign criticised LB for a pram ban - but LB didn't introduce a pram ban. Prams have never been allowed on buses. What LB did was introduce wheelchair spaces. So what are they criticising if not that introduction? This is a fundamental logical inconsistency in the mothers' cases. There is no pram ban.

While I agree that the sensible solution to this is to allow use of the wheelchair space on the condition that they get off the bus should it be required, I do not see why the space for a pram should be provided for free. The argument for wheelchair-using passengers is clear - they should not, and do not, have to pay more just because they use a wheelchair. The cost of losing space on the bus is covered by other passenger fares and grants from local government. But why should that apply to mothers with babies? That would effectively mean the rest of the passengers paying for the space used by the prams, not to mention funds designated to help the disabled being spent on those who do not qualify for them.

Travel with a pram is not a right, it is a service being provided by a commercial organisation and should attract a cost. I think buying a day ticket, which also avoids the cost of creating a new type of transferable ticket, solves both problems at once.
56

wolfette,

Edinburgh 24/03/2009 17:03:18
dear young mum

there's a reason buggies fold up.

57

Disgrunted Ebardonian,

Edinburgh 24/03/2009 17:07:20
I was on a bus (Im sure it was Firstbus) coming home from Curry last week and it had 2 spaces 1 on the left and 1 on the right simple just what is needed on LBs problem solved.
58

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

24/03/2009 17:22:10
25 wants to know: "What the hell happened to common sense?"

It's very uncommon in Edinburgh.
59

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

24/03/2009 17:24:58
I see there's an article today about a sex offender challenging their bus ban. I suppose they'll get their way too.
60

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

24/03/2009 17:29:59
#37: he's admitted it, so he's hardly likely to sue. What could the cops possibly charge him with? Drunk In Charge of A Brunette?
61

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

24/03/2009 17:34:04
#46: You can't seriously be suggesting they should allow prams on lifeboats?
62

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

24/03/2009 17:41:56
#71: Couldn't sex offenders sit in a vacant space but be required to leave the bus if a child alights?


63

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

24/03/2009 17:45:10
#73 wonders: "Why should mothers have to pay extra to travel on a bus? Bringing up a child already costs a fortune..."

Perhaps because having a child isn't some sort of accidental misfortune. Science has discovered what causes it.
64

heavensentmum,

24/03/2009 17:54:09
However did we mums manage before the new buses came into to service. We folded down our prams or buggies and added them to the pile.
Never did my children any harm or have I missed something. Have children become more delicate all of a sudden.
65

claire82,

24/03/2009 18:25:47
I actually cant believe how many anti child people post about this topic!!
I am a young working mum of 26 who doesnt drive. I try to walk where i can as i prefer it to the stress of getting on a bus where nobody has any consideration for you, and also for the exercise. (like to stay a trim size 8) I also walk 5 miles a day with my dog. Am i then classed as lazy if one day i have an appointment in town that i have to keep?
I had a travel system pram that could be one handedly folded if need be, and it was an expensive one. But One of the main reasons we bought it was because it folded so easily so if i ever needed to get on a bus alone the process would be simple as possible.
Ironically, my partner used to be a bus driver for Lothian and he was disgusted at this ridiculous rule.
surely its a case of first come first served? why should disabled people get priority anyway? theres far less disabled people that get on buses than children!!
Its like when you go to the supermarket and theres about 100 disabled spaces and 5 parent and child? would it make a difference if it was a wheelchair user who scratched the range rover or a mother with a buggy? would you discriminate then?
hmmm i wonder....

66

Dunedinhen,

Darlington 24/03/2009 18:49:18
#81.....disabled people get priorty because they DIDN'T have a choice to be whilst you HAD a choice to have a child!
67

Duncan in Edinburgh,

24/03/2009 18:59:14
#73 Here's where you really start misrepresenting things.

Prams have *never* been allowed on Lothian Buses.

Foldable buggies have *always* been allowed on. Before there were wheelchair spaces they had to be folded; now there are wheelchair spaces they sometimes don't have to be folded.

There is no way to infer from that that there is now or has ever been a "pram ban".

I explained why an extra cost is incurred by LB - the prams take up space. Space conveyed is a cost to LB. Your argument is that the cost of that space should be covered by ... whom?

The issue with a journey ticket isn't the ability to print it, for pity's sake - who else would be eligible for it? On what basis could eligibility be proved. Or are you suggesting that all bus users could buy them - in which case we can envisage pretty much the doubling of ticket prices for LB to bring in the same money.
68

claire82,

24/03/2009 19:06:05
#82 clearly you and a lot of readers here would have preferred if I (and everyone else) HADNT had a child!

I still dont see why when you put the number of disabled bus users and mothers with buggys together, and look at the ratio, should there be a disabled space rather than a buggy space? theres enough wasted space on lothian buses to put one of each in my opinion.
They are poorly designed.
Of course I would be considerate if I was in said disabled space, as my child is old enough now to sit on my knee and i have a foldaway buggy but what annoys me is the ones that come on in a wheelchair, park it and swing themselves onto a seat...yes i have witnessed this!! whats that all about? wheelchairs are foldable arent they?
Of course I do appreciate that there are some people that are physically unable to do so, those to me are the ones that need priority.
I also give up my seat to elderly or pregnant folk, although dont know why i bother as you rarely get thanked. I remember being heavily pregnant on my way to work (yes, i worked! doing 40 hours a week) and not one person offered me a seat! I stood all the way into town.
Probably a lot of them were online EEN readers i'd imagine!
FAR too many ignorant people in this town!!
69

claire82,

24/03/2009 19:15:32
#83 Sorry but I am not a selfish person, I just feel you have to fight your corner to get anywhere in this life. A lot of people wont say what they feel for fear of being shot down.
Theres always somebody making a fuss over something insignificant that hasnt posed a problem for years.
Nobody had a problem with it a couple of years ago when my baby was born!
I just feel that some of the comments on here are unfair towards mothers.
Why should sit back and take being called "Fat" and "lazy" for using public transport? as somebody else mentioned, does that make everybody else fat and lazy who gets on a bus?
70

claire82,

24/03/2009 19:18:49
#88 what Bus stop do you go to that you let somebody waltz to the front of the queue with their buggy?
I was always taught to stand in line. I have never been to a bus stop anywhere in edinburgh where i have witnessed this amazing spectacle?
I'd love to know so the next time im getting a bus with the buggy i can get on first!!
71

Dragonlord,

24/03/2009 19:49:26
This whole episode started when mothers refused to move for a wheelchair. Now IMHO they are scum. There would be no problem with buggies of any type as long as they gave priority to wheelchairs. Is that so hard to do?
72

is it me?,

Edinburgh 24/03/2009 19:52:06
I've asked this twice before, and no-one's given me an answer:
Where are all these mothers going with their offspring that's so important ?
Why are they not at home ? Cleaning, washing, ironing, preparing a nutritious meal for their husbands when they come home from a hard day's work.
If they have to go out to shop for provisions I'm sure they could take baby with them to the nearest convenience store, or for a healthy walk, instead of crowding onto a smoky stoory bus.
73

Who let the dogs out?,

24/03/2009 19:57:50
Jesus, we still on this story......

Look at that picture, those kids are well old enough to not need the pram !

Then we will have a story about obese kids
74

is it me?,

Edinburgh 24/03/2009 20:12:29
...the clue's in the name, it's a 'push' chair, not a 'lift on the bus' chair.
75

Duncan in Edinburgh,

24/03/2009 20:22:24
#90 It's not me misunderstanding you, it's you misunderstanding the facts! There is no ban on "any child carrying system in an unfolded state". There is no ban at all. The situation is precisely as I described it in #83.

The reason a journey ticket would result in massive price increases across the board is that the ticketing system does not allow for tracking whether journeys are "through" journeys, and unless a new system was rolled out at great expense, there would be no way for drivers to stop people using the same single ticket for every journey they take in a day.

Honestly, it can't work like that.
76

,

24/03/2009 20:42:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
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77

snoopy,

Musselburgh 24/03/2009 20:43:08
Oh jeeze, why did Lothian Buses have to cave in?

Can anyone see what's going to happen here?

If the disabled space and the buggy space are both filled and a wheelchair is wanting to get on, what's the betting that neither buggy mother will fold down said buggy?
78

Duncan in Edinburgh,

24/03/2009 20:43:54
#99 Best write to him a couple of times - his memory's not what it was.
79

sick of edinburgh,

24/03/2009 21:32:53
This issue might be simply courtesay and respect for each other, on every side. There was a time in edinburgh when pregnant women, women with children, elderly and disabled, in no particular order were stood aside for. Does anyone even remember the hoosewifies that kept order on a bus when someone was out of order? The arguments on this forum are a sad indictment of our selfish times. The buses cant take large prams, until they do pram purchasers need to complain to the manufacturers.
80

sick of edinburgh,

24/03/2009 22:05:48
incandesant is a muppet too. I'm a widow and therefore a single parent, does he want to come round and explain his 'hotspot' theory to me in person? Probably not. I have three strapping sons, in work and perfectly integrated to society despite the loss of their father. The issue is prams and buses not stigmatising single parents.
81

Duncan in Edinburgh,

24/03/2009 22:59:22
#103 That's simply not true, but if that's what you believe then I'm not surprised you're up in arms. The truth is that foldable pushchairs are still allowed on, unfolded, if the space is free. This policy, like the one on fixed prams, HAS NEVER CHANGED.

And as I have already set out, the cost of offering through journeys has NOTHING to do with printing a ticket, and everything to do with operating a through journey system.

Your fallback is to have a special ticket for parents with prams, which takes me back to my first question: who should pay the costs? Should other passengers subsidise pram transport? Why?
82

lothianer,

24/03/2009 23:10:17
Being a Bus Driver I see Prams, Buggies, Wheelchairs most days.

To be honest I find that if I have a Wheelchair or Buggy on board, a Parent with a Buggy usually wont mind waiting for the next bus, I give the option every time for him/her to fold, but they decline.

I do of course see some who have no worries in folding the Buggy. However there is the minority of parents who find it deeply insulting that the space is taken, wether by a Wheelchair or Buggy.

It all comes down to if a Parent can fold the Buggy to get on a bus before the introduction of Low Floor Buses why can't they now?

To some degree the DDA is to blame, but Bus Companies throughout the UK, not just Lothian Buses, but certainly Stagecoach Manchester, have notices stating that only Buggies can be brought on board.

And I think thats what is causing confusion. Parents are thinking its a full on ban on anything that carries a child. When it is purely just Prams. These things that clearly cannot fold, but have to have a screwdriver, and spanner to take them apart! If they have a hard/firm base they cannot travel. And the DDA states it in a round about fashion.

So these parents with Buggies, Lothian Buses have no issue with you. Parents with PRAMS go argue with the Government NOT Lothian Buses.



83

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 25/03/2009 00:21:08
the.kid.in.the.pram.should.be.climbing.the.PENTLANDS
84

,

25/03/2009 01:21:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
85

heavensentmum,

25/03/2009 07:00:31
#107 not an option to fold the buggy down because your child was too young.

What a load of bo!!ocks.

However did we manage before. We folded our buggies down before the bus arrived, held our babies and got on the best we could or walked. Fresh air is good for babies. Also good for parents.
86

Duncan in Edinburgh,

25/03/2009 07:46:39
#108 So you have moved on from claiming it is LB policy to refuse foldable buggies to claiming that it is rogue drivers applying the wrong policy?

Are you now accepting that there is no pram ban? It can't be a ban if it's just individual drivers deciding on a case by case basis.

Sounds to me like you've assumed your experience is universal, which as many others have pointed out, it isn't.

Foldable buggies have always been allowed on LB. They still are, with the additional benefit that if the wheelchair space is free, and the driver is happy, they don't need to be folded.

I can well imagine that some busy routes at peak times would not let an unfolded buggy on even if there was no wheelchair, because space is at a premium. Drivers need to be able to use their discretion at such times.

It doesn't help to moan about a "pram ban" just because in certain very reasonable circumstances you don't get everything you want.
87

Vic,

Edinburgh 25/03/2009 08:17:21
#63. I suppose it depends on whether you're vaguely competent or not. We managed, and were entirely dependent on buses/walking to get around when our children were born.
88

Mark Renton,

Edinburgh 25/03/2009 09:23:13
And this now presumably means less seats on the buses for those who actually need them most: the elderly and infirm. I bet the SELFISH mothers with their nonsense 'travel systems' didn't even blink an eyelid at that. It's all just 'ME ME ME' with them: and shame on the MSPs for falling for the 'Lothian Buses have banned babies' nonsense.
89

Winters,

Glasgow 25/03/2009 09:59:51
I don't know what the moaners are complaining about.
First Bus in Glasgow have made space for prams on the buses for years. Although there is only room for about two at a time I've never seen any arguments or disturbance because of it. In fact many of the buses can lower their platform entrance and it doesn't affect the timetable in the least. so why have Lothian Buses been slow start this.
90

Duncan in Edinburgh,

25/03/2009 10:09:52
#115 LB has made space for buggies for years too.

The problem here is that the issue is being grossly misrepresented.

In truth, LB are being condemned for having one of the most disabled-accessible fleets of any bus company in the UK.
91

sick of edinburgh,

25/03/2009 11:04:03
'Looks very much like the baby-haters are the selfish ones for wanting to exclude baby and parents from the bus.'

baby haters is a wee bit strong lad, no one is excluding babies and children from buses and no one is a baby hater. The issue is the big prams, nothing else. You need to have a wee lie down now because your getting a tad upset now.
92

sick of edinburgh,

25/03/2009 11:07:46
'have you recently attempted to board a bus with a very young child in a buggy'

Yes, with my grandson and I managed like I did when my kids were young. Folded buggy waiting at stop, child in one arm and message bag on other. A nice man insisted on putting the buggy on for me. If he hadn't I still would have managed.
93

pofi,

25/03/2009 11:08:10
Give it a rest please Kenster, my eyeballs hurt.
Perhaps you and Mrs Kenster could consider a move to Glasgow. Please.
94

sick of edinburgh,

25/03/2009 11:10:40
mums' in their 'designer travel systems' who are 'too lazy' to walk

Nothing about babies tho
95

sick of edinburgh,

25/03/2009 11:18:42
He was under six months
96

sick of edinburgh,

25/03/2009 11:19:26
Have taken my kids on buses from birth
97

sick of edinburgh,

25/03/2009 11:28:23
Bully for a lot of Edinburgh parents actually, now go and put your toys back in the pram.
98

Duncan in Edinburgh,

25/03/2009 11:38:37
#118 I travel by bus every day, and I would estimate that at least every other journey there is a child in a buggy happily occupying the wheelchair space. People typically move out of the way to allow the parent to sit in the adjacent fold-down seat, and the system works fine. I have never in all my years travelling daily by LB witnessed a driver refusing to carry a foldable buggy unfolded when there was a wheelchair space available.

I don't doubt that you may have done, but I totally deny your suggestion that your experience is universal. Your statement that it is happening "to virtually all parents on buses" is simply false by the evidence of my own eyes.
99

totally indecent,

25/03/2009 11:40:53
Get a grip Kenster. As I said before the problem was caused by the selfish mothers with huge prams. I and thousands of others managed fine with fold up buggies, babies, toddlers and shopping and didn't complain.

Did I sometimes have to wake the baby up to take him out the buggy?

YES I DID! OMG phone the social!
100

Duncan in Edinburgh,

25/03/2009 12:05:37
#135 Like a wheelchair user she needs to accept that she won't necessarily be able to get on the very next bus that comes. If that's a major problem for her then - well, I pity the both of you.

LB's policy has not changed. Seriously.
101

totally indecent,

25/03/2009 12:06:09
That is the point I am making! I know it's not easy but we did it so why can't you?

Not so much an East coast thing as a selfish young people who want the world to lie down to their needs thing.

Life with kids was never meant to be easy.
102

MrCalm,

25/03/2009 12:58:21
OK - so buses were originally created to carry passengers from A to B. Seats tended to be fairly cramped and there were no special treatment for disabled or mums and kids. Then along came low floor, LB have a higher number than many other bus companies, and all out war breaks out as to who has rights.
103

zebrafied,

Edinburgh 25/03/2009 13:09:01
I am sorry this is so long but there are a lot of issues raised in this discussion!

Claire82@87 - *shock horror* wheelchair user gets out of their chair... Did it ever occur to you that disabled people don't particularly enjoy travelling backwards? They may also object to being able to see others on the bus stare at them... Also, reversing round the pole into the space is not the easiest thing to do so getting out to position the chair may be necessary.

As for folding wheelchairs. Yes, many do fold. However, they are MUCH bulkier and heavier than a standard folding buggy so on most buses would have to go in the wheelchair space anyway. Also, even a traditional Silver Cross pram doesn't have 24" wheels... If you want disabled people to have lighter, easier to fold/dismantle wheelchairs then feel free to contact the local NHS Wheelchair Service and tell them that. Some of the stuff they hand out to improve people's mobility is a joke, but I digress.

I hope that helped you understand the "Lou and Andy" moment you witnessed. Most wheelchair users get out of their chairs whenever it is appropriate as it is not good for you to be immobile, in the same position all day long. You wouldn't leave a baby in it's pram all day, would you?

Yes, all. I am a wheelchair user. Edinburgh is a nightmare for people with mobility problems at the best of times (hills, cobbles, extremely dodgy pavements, laughable 'dropped' kerbs) so we could do without the demonisation, thanks. It's not our fault we might want to travel at the same time as a non-folding pram.

The proposed new buses pose a whole new problem. The possibility now opens for two wheelchairs to travel at the same time. I could travel with another wheelchair user *more shock horror* (yes, I realise this would involve both spaces being pram-free - highly unlikely but possible) Will a wheelchair be thrown off to accommodate a pram further along the route? It is FAR more difficult to get a wheelchair with an older ch
104

zebrafied,

Edinburgh 25/03/2009 13:10:09
It is FAR more difficult to get a wheelchair with an older child or adult in it on and off a bus than a pram. It also causes delays as the ramp (often malfunctioning!) is released - sorry about that everyone. Two spaces with folding seats would be fantastic so more needs can be met. I do, however, believe both spaces should be designated wheelchair spaces that can be used by others when they are not required. I think a designated pram space could make this problem even worse unless it is available on every single bus. Having two sets of rules in force is likely to result in further disputes. What happens when a route usually served by the new-style buses has to use an older bus? Will the person with the non-folding pram still expect to get on? Yes, they will. How were they supposed to know an inappropriate bus would arrive?

To be clear about it. I have NO problem with buggies/prams/whatever travelling in the wheelchair space as long as they are prepared to fold or get off when I, or another wheelchair user, need that space. The problem has arisen because some people will not do this (I appreciate that disabled parents and parents with disabled children may not be able to do this) A person is MUCH more likely to fold up and stay on than get off so I believe this is why LB have refused boarding to prams etc. which will obviously not fold small enough to be accommodated anywhere other than in the space. This is in the same way as me trying to board a bus already carrying a wheelchair user. I might be prepared to fold/dismantle my chair but it wouldn't fit anywhere else unlike a traditional Maclaren-style folding buggy.

Most disabled people would like to use public transport like everyone else but even with Edinburgh's excellent bus service it is not always possible. Please do not make it more difficult.

I am very fortunate that I can access two bus services outside my house. If they were not there I would be unable to access bus travel independently. The nea
105

zebrafied,

Edinburgh 25/03/2009 13:10:39
I am very fortunate that I can access two bus services outside my house. If they were not there I would be unable to access bus travel independently. The nearest alternative stops are up a hill I cannot manage on my own. Just to add some context to the discussion, only a parent with mobility problems would be unable to get to those alternative stops. I am often faced with the same problem reaching a destination. One of my bus routes stops very close to the school where I attend an evening class. The school is, however, down a very steep hill so I still have to use a taxi/get someone to drive me.

Similarly, I live relatively close to town. Many people walk and a pram could be pushed there. I, however, could not push myself into town. I couldn't even get up the first slight hill without help. This is why, law aside, my need for the wheelchair space should take priority. Then again, town has become practically inaccessible to wheelchair users since they closed Princes Street. Parents can easily push buggies and prams the extra distance (including the hills) to get there but it's a different story for an adult in a heavy wheelchair.

I am unable to drive (I couldn't afford a car anyway) and the council will not provide me with a Taxicard to make some taxi travel affordable so I will continue to use buses when I am able. I accept there will be occasions when the space is in legitimate use so I try to leave early but I do not want to be sitting around at a cold bus stop potentially aggravating my health problems because someone who *could* have vacated the space would not.

I'll take this opportunity to thank the parents who have quite happily vacated the space for me (these people tend to have traditional folders suited to public transport, just as a matter of interest). You are in the majority in my experience. It's a shame the minority have to spoil it for you.

I hope my contribution has helped you all understand the situation from the perspective of a wheel
106

zebrafied,

Edinburgh 25/03/2009 13:14:39
I hope my contribution has helped you all understand the situation from the perspective of a wheelchair user. I am not, however, suggesting I represent the views of all wheelchair users.
107

totally indecent,

25/03/2009 14:09:20
Thank you Zebra and may all you selfish parents hang your heads in shame.
108

totally indecent,

25/03/2009 15:12:15
No - I was mostly referring to Claire who posted earlier asking why wheelchairs should be given priority over prams.
109

GarryB,

Dunbar 25/03/2009 15:29:15
Interesting that motormouth Somerville had to get her neb in, again, and as usual taking the view that it's a straightforward case. How has this woman had time to have a baby daughter?
110

Vic,

Edinburgh 26/03/2009 08:05:28
#117 'Back in the day' was three years ago. I don't want a medal, but thanks for the offer.
111

Tam,

Edinburgh 26/03/2009 09:45:51
Banning non folding buggies on buses was only designed as a PR stunt to win hearts and minds in favour of trams anyway.
112

Paulie9,

Musselburgh 28/03/2009 16:05:40
It is the 21st century. A bus company should cater for all in the community: able bodied, disabled, blind, the old, the young. A young mother with no car is entitled to combat their boredome or even depression by getting out and about and using public transport. Companies should design and buy their buses to cater for all. Simple as that.
Of course, this is not a proper victory. The poor babies of Edinburgh will be about 21 by the time all of the buses will be "able" to cater for prams. Meanwhile, Lothian Buses continue to act like spoilt chilrden and empty spaces on buses continue to go unused. Shame on them.

 

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