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Equality Commission calls for 'common sense' in pram ban



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Published Date: 30 September 2008
PRESSURE is continuing to mount on Lothian Buses to drop its controversial pram ban after the Equality and Human Rights Commission stepped in to the row.
Ros Micklem, the organisation's Scottish director, said a "common sense approach" was needed. She said ensuring access for passengers in wheelchairs should not mean excluding parents with young children.

Her intervention adds to the pressure on L
othian Buses, after the city council called for an end to the "fiasco" this week.

A cross-party group of councillors is set to meet the bus company, after transport leader Phil Wheeler criticised their "heavy-handed" approach.

Lothian Buses says its policy is in line with disability discrimination laws. It claims the ban is necessary because a significant number of parents refuse to move out of the disabled space or fold their buggies when asked.

Campaigners say that it is discriminating against parents with young children. They maintain they should be allowed to use the space, provided it is not needed by a wheelchair user.

More than 1220 people have signed a petition calling on the Scottish Parliament to ensure equal access for parents to public transport. They have also won support from ECAS, the city's leading disability group.

Ms Micklem said: "The Equality and Human Rights Commission recognises that Lothian Buses is trying to comply with disability discrimination law.

However, we believe that this does not have to be an 'either/or' argument about the competing needs of wheelchair users and parents with small children. We feel that there is scope for a more flexible approach that would benefit both parents and disabled people.

"A common sense approach is needed, one that allows parents with buggies to access the space when it is not needed by a wheelchair user, on the clear understanding that the space would be given up for a wheelchair user if necessary."

Shirley-Anne Somerville MSP, who recently led a delegation of parents to discuss the issue with Lothian Buses, said: "This is very good news. The commission is specifically to deal with equality issues. I hope that Lothian Buses will sit down and work out a common sense approach."

The company, however, has said it is not prepared to change its policy. It only allows buggies on buses that can be folded if required, although campaigners say these are unsuitable for children under six months.

George McKendrick, Lothian Buses operations manager, insisted the commission's comments were not inconsistent with the bus company's policy.

He said: "We welcome the Equality and Human Rights Commission for Scotland's endorsement of Lothian Buses' policy which is that we are happy to accommodate buggies and pushchairs in the wheelchair space as long as they can be folded up and put away if required to allow a wheelchair user to travel."





The full article contains 473 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 30 September 2008 11:01 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Transport , Lothian Buses
 
1

Howard Moon,

30/09/2008 11:48:21
George McKendrick, Lothian Buses operations manager, insisted the commission's comments were not inconsistent with the bus company's policy.

He said: "We welcome the Equality and Human Rights Commission for Scotland's endorsement of Lothian Buses' policy which is that we are happy to accommodate buggies and pushchairs in the wheelchair space as long as they can be folded up and put away if required to allow a wheelchair user to travel."

Is this right? If it is, why on earth is this non-story getting covered in this paper every day? Everyone's arguing for the same thing!
2

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 30/09/2008 11:55:35
'The company, however, has said it is not prepared to change its policy. It only allows buggies on buses that can be folded if required'

Lothian Buses insist on folding buses...to make more room for the trams?
3

Sister Morag,

Lasswade 30/09/2008 12:03:12
When I was a nipper all pushchairs were folded and placed in a special luggage area, thus allowing more space for passengers. Far more sensible if you ask me.

And which muppet blabbed such a pointless tale to the EHRC? Have they nothing better to do?
4

JayDeeTee,

30/09/2008 12:21:28
#3. If gives all the feminists at the EHRC something to do.
5

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 30/09/2008 12:24:00
For christs sake, just drop this madness NOW.

When Maggie Thatcher delivered the "Lady's not for turning" speech it was against a backdrop of complete turmoil and indecision on the part of Callaghan's shower of fools. She did NOT intend it to mean "Once you've made a decision, stick by it through hell and high water even though it turns out to be completely the wrong decision to have made."

It seems that the content of this speech is one of the few legacies from the Thatcher era that have been carried on by stupid labour (and stupid businessmen), and lacking the understanding to know when and how to apply it, they apply it across the board and rigidly.

It was a DOCTRINE, not a DOGMA. Wake up the lot of you!

And just quietly forget about this stupid ban---like most bus drivers have already done.
6

alex paterson,

edinburgh 30/09/2008 12:27:07
Quite right Lothian buses stick to your guns and make the lazy mothers walk.
7

ZipptJeffrey,

Castle 30/09/2008 12:36:33
George McKendrick is an embarrasment to Lothian buses. He cant admit he was wrong. And because of his incompetence and stubornness, mothers with children are being ostracised and discrimminated against. Over a "health and safety" policy that is not even relevant to the bus!! Time to get your P45 George.
8

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 30/09/2008 13:19:07

Lando Calrissian had a strict no prams policy on the Millennium Falcon - I don't much see why Lothian Buses should be any different.

If you're taking your snot-nebbed wee fat bauchle on the bus, don't use a pram. Unless the comission for racial equality says you can.
9

Kirsty Boyd-Williamson,

New Town 30/09/2008 14:18:57
Why can't the aggrieved mothers and their objectionable, unhygienic sprogs not use the Edinburgh taxi service instead and save us all from their tiresome bleatings?
10

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 30/09/2008 14:20:33

#9 You don't sound so hygeinic yourself, living in the rat-infested New Town
11

Skip McClendon,

30/09/2008 14:31:39
#9

Why are there so many child-hating sociopaths posting on the EEN forums?
12

spud the enforcer,

30/09/2008 14:43:22
common sense is fold up buggies on buses only, non foldable prams are pain, i have witnessed old folk being asked to move because someone has brought these brutes on the 22,even witnessed a young ned refusing to fold down a buggy to allow access for a wheelchair, sorry but once again it needs saying , prams have less right to space on a bus than a fare dodger, and to the idiots who got those parasites at the ehrc involved ,what did you hope it would achieve, from now on i will always move for a wheelchair or a oap but for buggies/prams you can forget it, you have no more right to that space than me when there is not a wheelchair in it so i am staying put
13

Skip McClendon,

30/09/2008 14:56:56
Just to keep score: The parents want the pram ban lifted. Politicians want the pram ban lifted. Disabilities charities want the pram ban lifted. The equlaity commission want the pram ban lifted.

But a couple of jobsworths at Lothian Buses, and a few child-hating nutters blogging on the EEN, continue to insist that it's all necessary under the law. Hmmmm...I wonder who could be correct?

Why is public transport such a joke in this country? Other countries do it better, more reliably, more punctually, and much, much cheaper. And they do it without discriminating against ANYONE - be they people with disabilities, or parents with babies.
14

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 30/09/2008 15:01:26

#11 Skip:

To be fair to Kirsty "Blek Le Rat" Williamson, she's not a "child hating nutter" - she only hates the children of people she reckons are lower in social class than she is.

But so many ratty rats inna New Town, difficult to see where this prejudice comes from.

15

Duncan in Edinburgh,

30/09/2008 16:10:54
#13 If the parents want the pram ban lifted, they have to find a way to *ensure* that if a wheelchair user needs to use the space, a parent with a pram in the space will take it off the bus. Lothian Buses' own survey shows that nearly half of those asked to do so in such situations refused, leaving the wheelchair user unable to get on the bus. That is the problem that needs to be addressed here.

And in case you weren't able to read the article, the equality commission have not asked for the ban to be lifted. They support the bus company's policy to allow folding buggies on board, but not non-foldable prams.
16

rover,

Edinburgh 30/09/2008 16:37:23
Push chairs were always folded before why should todays lazy mother not do the same or do as we did walk
17

Howard Moon,

30/09/2008 16:41:30
#15

Correct. The reporting on this silly little story seems to be little more than mischief-making on the part of the EEN. People are arguing over something that isn't even happening.
18

Casey Beer,

30/09/2008 16:46:06
#6 “Push chairs were always folded before why should today’s lazy mother not do the same or do as we did walk”.

That one is easy to answer: it is because modern prams and pushchairs come fully equipped with a roll cages, side impact protection, crumple zones and airbags. These features all take up space and restrict the ability to fold the buggies.

Any parent using an old style, lightweight, folding buggy would be horribly negligent.
19

snotter,

30/09/2008 17:02:43
Another reason to go by car
20

Andanotherthing,

30/09/2008 17:31:52
Ms Micklem Equality and Human Rights Commission.
"A common sense approach is needed, one that allows parents with buggies to access the space when it is not needed by a wheelchair user, on the clear understanding that the space would be given up for a wheelchair user if necessary."

I thought that was the current Lothian Buses buggies polcy.
21

Robin Bankes,

Culross 30/09/2008 18:16:31
No9 - Kirsty.
Why can't the aggrieved mothers and their objectionable,.....................

On the face of it, a sound idea. The difficulty arises in that I use Edinburgh taxis on a fairly regular basis and do not wish to contract an infection from the burger-guzzling lower orders.

22

Duncan in Edinburgh,

30/09/2008 19:51:10
#20 Precisely. Turns out that Lothian Buses are on the side of common sense, as most people have observed.
23

Skip McClendon,

30/09/2008 20:04:22
#15 Duncan

"And in case you weren't able to read the article, the equality commission have not asked for the ban to be lifted. They support the bus company's policy to allow folding buggies on board, but not non-foldable prams."

- Really? Exactly where in the article do they say that? Take your time...I realise you will have to clear your post with the Lothian Buses press office first...

The quote I read in the article from the Equality Commission was this - "Ros Micklem, the organisation's Scottish director, said a "common sense approach" was needed. She said ensuring access for passengers in wheelchairs should not mean excluding parents with young children."

I.e. she is calling for a common sense approach, thus implying that this is not currently in place. She wouldn't be calling for something that is already there, would she?

And then...

"However, we believe that this does not have to be an 'either/or' argument about the competing needs of wheelchair users and parents with small children. We feel that there is scope for a more flexible approach that would benefit both parents and disabled people."

- Why would she call for a "more flexible approach" if she thought the current pram ban was acceptable. Duncan? Duncan???

"A common sense approach is needed, one that allows parents with buggies to access the space when it is not needed by a wheelchair user, on the clear understanding that the space would be given up for a wheelchair user if necessary."

- And there you have it. She wants a MORE flexible approach. Nowhere does she mention ANY support for a ban on non-foldable prams.

So clearly nothing wrong with MY reading comprehension, Duncan me old mucka'. Your spin needs some work though.


24

Bairny Rubble,

30/09/2008 20:16:10
So many sad people on here, enjoying baiting parents hopefully makes you feel better typing away on your little laptop into the evening. Well I hope you're enjoying yourself because we're all laughing at people like you.

So much bile, get off your computer and find something better to do with your time.

Good on the EEN for supporting parents.
25

pofi,

30/09/2008 21:05:07
#24 And who is calling who sad, typing away on your little laptop @ 20.16?!

Try thinking about this:

Selfish mums refusing to move buggies from the WHEELCHAIR SPACE for WHEELCHAIR USERS= A lot of very disgruntled passengers (including a lot of mothers).

Regardless of your personal opinion, those passengers are entitled to give theirs on this forum. They support Lothian Buses Pram Ban for good reason.

Get off your high horse and away back to your cave, prehistoric man.
(And if you're back on this forum tonight that makes you sadder still...)
26

Duncan in Edinburgh,

30/09/2008 22:04:48
#23 There is nothing contradictory there. You're just buying the EEN's tabloid dressing. It's a non-story. The EHRC have NOT called for prams (i.e. non-collapsible things) to be allowed on buses. They have called for buggies (which can be folded out of the way if a wheelchair user needs to use the space) to be allowed on. Which they are already. This is a common sense approach. No change required.

I read the EHRC woman's reference to "more flexible" as being as opposed to what she referred to as an "either/or" approach. Since the more flexible approach is what already exists, there is no change required.

And you quote yourself the summation of this:

"A common sense approach is needed, one that allows parents with buggies to access the space when it is not needed by a wheelchair user, on the clear understanding that the space would be given up for a wheelchair user if necessary."

The point is that this common sense approach *is* the current Lothian Buses policy. Buggies are allowed on on the understanding that they can be folded out of the way. Prams cannot be folded out of the way, so how could this approach work for prams?

Do I detect that you think I work for Lothian Buses now? Dear goodness, people on here have some daft ideas about me.
27

Julian.,

edinburgh 30/09/2008 22:43:50
#13 Skip,

"parents want the pram ban lifted"

Wrong on both counts. I don't want it lifted for a start. And as for the other 250,000 parents who didn't sign the petition, did you ask them if they did?

And it's not a pram ban, it's a non-foldable pram ban. Foldable prams, starting at £40, are quite welcome on board.
28

Julian.,

edinburgh 30/09/2008 22:49:05
"a common sense approach is needed"

Of course Ros Micklem, that's the answer. Because there is obviously only one common sense approach and, the one promoted by Lothian Buses was deliberately picked out by them as non-common sense. They never thought to apply what they thought of as common sense to solve the problem. That's where they went wrong.

The only problem with your "common sense" approach is that it's exactly the same as the previous position, which was changed because of selfish mothers flouting the clearly stated rules.
29

Duncan in Edinburgh,

01/10/2008 07:53:07
#28 Actually from my reading of it - and from LB's response - she is actually quite happy that LB's current approach *is* common sense, and supports it.
30

Sods Law,

EDINBURGH 01/10/2008 10:17:03
Some Parents cannot even control a buggy, they bang into everyone and everything getting on the bus. APram would be worse
31

Skip McClendon,

01/10/2008 11:37:34
Here's a better solution to enable equal access for all - take out ALL the lower deck seats on buses, and make everyone stand. Or make all lower deck seats folding.

Then, even single, childless, healthy people could give up their seat to accomodate wheelchair users when necessary. I wonder how many of the child/parent haters would themselves be prepared to give up their place on a bus, and be forced to walk or pay again for another ticket on another bus?

Discriminating against young babies - who themselves cannot walk, nor look after themselves - is no way to improve disabled access. Disabled access has to be improved, but not at the expense of society's youngest and most helpless members.
32

Kimbers,

Edinburgh 01/10/2008 13:52:35
Speaking as a mother of a 5 year old,who is employed married and fairly sure she doesnt come into the Chav category, I would like to send my support to the Mothers who are spearheading this campaign to continue pram/buggy access on LRT Buses. When my daughter was small I found the bus system a great help. Common sense must prevail amongst the mums who use this service. I got of the bus on two occasions when the space was required for a wheelchair user. I also never requested anybody to give up their seat as the space is for the pram/buggy and not the individual pushing it. Please let us remember it will soon be Winter and children are much warmer and less exposed to the elements in prams. Just to make it clear, I also have a 14 yr old daughter so also experienced the many occasions of getting on and of buses with a fold down buggy, shopping bags and a crying baby in my arms and it isnt easy. If the space is there surely we can allow mothers to use it. its not pandering to them, it is common decency.
33

pofi,

01/10/2008 14:28:40
#31 Rubbish- I am not paying £35 a month to stand on the lower deck to accommodate a multitude of unfolded prams! And who will be paying for the alterations?! The wheelchair space is sufficient to accommodate...wheelchairs, or even one foldable pram on the express condition that it is folded or removed when a wheelchair user wants to occupy the wheelchair space (strangely enough).
If parents won't: A fold prams or B buy buggies that can be folded then that isn't discrimination that is just A selfishness or B stupidity.
Rubbish- isn't that what "skips" are filled with?!

#32 Regardless of their chav/non chav status common sense does NOT prevail amongst all mothers on Lothian Bus buses (Lothian Region Transport was disbanded many years ago, get up to speed, will you?)
As almost half of those mothers have refused to fold prams or disembark to make way for a wheelchair user then that is the reason for the Pram Ban continuing.
May I also point out that that space is clearly marked For Wheelchair Users and is not primarily a pram/buggy space.
Common decency? Isn't that what should be extended to those wheelchair users refused access? Condemned to wait in the cold and rain because some selfish besom is too busy talking on her mobile to fold her buggy or even take notice of her own baby never mind the rest of the world.
The babies will be walking and grown up before the "outraged" mothers give up their pointless campaign. Tne disabled more than likely will remain disabled.
34

Skip McClendon,

01/10/2008 14:42:43
#33

Thanks for proving my point. You only want to kick people off buses when it's not you that's being kicked. What if 2 wheelchair users want to get on? Shouldn't you then get off?

Not so easy when you're the one being kicked off, after paying to use a service is it?
35

Kimbers,

01/10/2008 14:56:25
No 32, I have better things to concentrate on than what the current name edinburgh bus services operate on, You betray yourself by trying to score petty points. your predjusices towards people with children border on the truly disturbing, If Mothers dont get of the bus, the bus doesnt move until they do. do not condemn the majority because of the bahviour of a mindless minority. and it is a minority, i do not get where youre blase over half the mothers refuse to get of statement comes from. as a regular bus user, my experience says otherwise.
36

pofi,

01/10/2008 16:52:37
Ho hum...

# 33 Nobody is kicking me off any bus, what are you going on about? I have no need to sit in the wheelchair space, I can stand or sit anywhere I like . When my children were small I folded their buggies before I got on. That meant we could sit anywhere we liked.
There is only room for one wheelchair user in the wheelchair space unless the second one folds their wheelchair. Obviously.

#35 I wouldn't want you to waste your powers of concentration on getting up to date with a name change now 13 years old. Best attend to improving your atrocious spelling, grammar and word comprehension skills as well as your grasp of simple arithmetic. "Almost half" per Lothian Buses recent surveys as quoted in my post and often quoted by the EEN, see previous fora (that's the plural of forum)does not equal "over half" per your post. I, like many other posters who support the Pram Ban (see the afore-mentioned fora) AM a mother.
Where's your "predjusices" now?!!

Now that is enough. Until Hazel Mollison finds another way of recycling the same story, that is!

37

Julian.,

edinburgh 01/10/2008 22:48:10
Kimbers,

Usual distortion of the argument. These mothers are not campaigning to continue pram/buggy access. 90% of prams and buggies are still allowed. Of the 10% which aren't, these can be replaced for about £40.
38

vorlic,

edinburgh 30/10/2008 08:34:39
after 28 years as a bus driver i must say, thisrow is about people with buggies will not accept that only one buggy in the upright position is allowed into the wheelchair space.i have even seen people leaving an empty upright buggy there while they walked the child up the aisle to a seat.who would get the blame if the driver had to brake in a hurry and any buggy went rolling about the bus.have you selfish people not considred that the rules apply for safety reasons.
39

The real dracula,

06/11/2008 22:13:09
Can we now have a ban on prams / pushchairs in shops.

Absolute pain in the a$$

 

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