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Forcing people to work for benefits will do nothing to alleviate poverty



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Published Date: 23 July 2008
As a university lecturer in social policy for 25 years, I studied the operation of workfare schemes around the world including those in the United States, which seem to be the main influence on Labour's green paper (your report, 22 July).
The overwhelming conclusion is that numbers on benefit were cut, but the major effect was to shift people who were in poverty on benefit into being in poverty in work.

For single mothers there was also a big deterioration in quality of life as t
hey often had to get up at 5am to drag their children into daycare, then drag themselves to work in low-paid jobs, then back to pick up their children.

Also, as the Child Poverty Action Group points out, when you involve private firms in the running of these schemes, corruption follows. It is worth noting that the government is already engaged in this privatisation process as 13 out of 15 projects in the Pathways to Work scheme have been let out to private companies.

This scheme could not have been launched at a worse time; we are about to enter the deepest recession since 1929 and unemployment will rise sharply, so where are all these jobs coming from, or are the unemployed to be forced into menial tasks wearing yellow jackets like criminals, doing community service?

Contrast also the treatment of the poor with that of the rich. The banks that have created the recession through criminally reckless lending policies are bailed out at the cost of billions of pounds of our money. And the bankers who caused the problem are given golden handshakes and pension schemes worth millions.

The real scroungers in our society are the super-rich, who are avoiding and evading £60 billion of tax a year.

There are, of course, examples of alternative strategies which not only reduce the numbers on benefit but raise their standard of living and the quality of life of the country. In Denmark, you get 80 per cent of your previous income on social security, you have universal and affordable childcare, excellent vocational education and free higher education with full grants. The result is low levels of unemployment and high wages, with a minimum wage of £10 an hour and only 2 per cent of children in poverty, compared to 25 per cent in Scotland.

It is, of course, funded by progressive taxation, including 67 per cent on the rich. Labour may hope its new scheme will convince swing voters it is being tough on scroungers. However, in Scotland let us hope it convinces people we want a different kind of society, something rather more like Scandinavia than the US.

HUGH KERR
Braehead Avenue
Edinburgh


Under Labour's latest proposals the sick and unemployed will be treated worse than convicted criminals. Criminals can be forced to do demeaning jobs like picking up litter, but only for the limited time specified in their community service order. People unable to find paid employment will be forced to do such work until they reach retirement age or die. For many, it will be a life sentence.

Voluntary or paid work can enhance people's mental health by providing social contact, fulfilment and a sense of self-worth. Being forced to do humiliating tasks will do the opposite.

A 2006 report from the London School of Economics said: "There are more mentally ill people on incapacity benefits than the total number of unemployed people on benefit," but that "only a quarter of those who are ill are receiving any treatment". Instead of giving people the help they need to recover, Labour wants to torture them until they stop claiming benefits.

R A McCARTNEY
Woburn Avenue
Farnborough, Hampshire




The full article contains 628 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 22 July 2008 8:42 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

AM2,

Scotland,UK 23/07/2008 01:16:10
Hugh Kerr

Three points:

1. Giving people work experience and personalised back-to-work support will actually alleviate (relative) poverty.

2. There is nothing in the proposals about not treating people who are ill. You would appear to be scaremongering.

3. There is no absolute poverty in either Denmark or Scotland. You are doing that leftist thing of referring to "relative poverty", actually a measure of income distribution, as "poverty".
2

Anne,

Eaglesham 23/07/2008 06:47:28
What on earth does Hugh Kerr think employed single mothers do?
The emotive use of the word "drag" cannot hide the fact that for other people, getting up and going to work is a fact of life, not some form of unethical torture.
3

Boy Wonder,

23/07/2008 07:30:08
Would the out-of-work, the sick and the disabled who are forced into these work-for-dole schemes get the minimum wage? How many hours would they have to do?

If they are forced to work ... then will they get the going rate, in which case, they are in work and all that entitles them to? Why are these jobs not advertised as available now?

The dole nowadays is around 55-60 quid a week. Would YOU work for that piddling amount? Especially with all the food/fuel/utilities increases going on? I think not.

I think somebody just has not thought this through and is pandering to the likes of the Tories ideas on work and class from the '30s.

It just is not on!





4

SouthernSkye,

23/07/2008 07:48:08
Boy Wonder....
"The dole nowadays is around 55-60 quid a week. Would YOU work for that piddling amount?"

I would not no. But,what's the option? Sit on my @rze and be poorly paid for doing nothing!

on the other hand, if unemployed are doing something everyday it will have several positive effects:
1-Social skills and socialising within a positive environment....less chance of having time to get bored and slip into the underbelly of society.
2-Tax payers will feel less negative towards them. The social stigma of "being a doley" will be reduced.


I agree (most unusually!!!) with AM2 on this in his #1 comment.Poverty is relative. We do not have true poverty here. Try going into the villages in China and see real poverty. The people I met in China who were "saving up for a bicycle" were happy, those who had a bicycle were proud that they had acheived this. We over-play poverty in the West.
5

Martinh,

23/07/2008 08:18:54
RA McCartney writes that criminals could be forced to do demeaning tasks like 'picking up litter.' I do this on a regular basis, as do thousands of other conservation volunteers, hoping that by example the people who cause the problem may be shamed into showing some respect for their local environment. It is dirty work, but ultimately rewarding, if for example you clear a local burn from mess so that the water can flow freely again, for the benefit of people and wildlife. It may be a life changing experience for some criminals too if they are 'forced' to participate in such activity.
6

Hugh V McLachlan,

Elderslie 23/07/2008 08:23:41
'The real scroungers in our society are the super-rich, who are avoiding and evading £60 billion of tax a year.'

The scrounging of the rich would not justify or cancel out the scrounging of the poor if there is such scrounging. Scroungers are scroungers. It is not only rich scroungers who are 'real' ones.
7

Hugh V McLachlan,

Elderslie 23/07/2008 08:37:33
'The overwhelming conclusion is that numbers on benefit were cut, but the major effect was to shift people who were in poverty on benefit into being in poverty in work.'

This is surely an impovement. People should not be given as much money for doing nothing as they would earn for working. What, too, about the consequences for the tax-payer?


8

Hugo of Garven,

23/07/2008 08:54:16
" . . so where are all these jobs coming from, . . "

A crucial question that is usually ignored in debates about getting the unemployed back to work.

9

Calum10,

23/07/2008 11:00:12
It is hypocrictical of the Labour government accuse people on benefits as 'scroungers' when the biggest scroungers of all are Labour MPs. It is time that Westminster put its own house in order before it pontificates on the welfare state.
10

Toom,

23/07/2008 11:19:13
Hugh Kerr:-

"but the major effect was to shift people who were in poverty on benefit into being in poverty in work. "

But if people get into work they have a chance of getting training, and gaining skills and experience for better paid work.

The only other way of escaping 'poverty' is that we pay unrealistically high benefits to people who continue to make no effort to gain skills or get into work.

The basic problem is the massive public and charity support network which depends for its existence, and well paid careers, on maintaining a large number of people in dependency and poverty, instead of showing them that the opportunities are there, that it is up to them to take advantage of them, and using both carrot and stick to achive this.

And, no, there is nothing wrong with asking people to work for their benefit payments - it is to their benefit to establish a track record of ability, willingness and the discipline to work if they are to be considered for paid employment. Again, the problem is the lack of realisation that you have to put in some initial effort in order to get future reward of higher wages when you have experience and skills. No-one is going to come along and offer high wages for knowning nothing and doing nothing.
11

Stoo,

23/07/2008 13:23:49
"The overwhelming conclusion is that numbers on benefit were cut, but the major effect was to shift people who were in poverty on benefit into being in poverty in work."

Better than sitting on your bum all day atrophying.
12

lou from niagara,

Niagara Falls Canada 23/07/2008 16:49:27
It's not just in Scotland that you have welfare bums, we have them in Canada as well. If a person has a medical or whatever problem give them what they need the rast give them a job and if they won't do it give them nothing. Millionaire's trying to beat the tax man is up to the goverment to collect. Once a few of these guy's are prosecuted the rest will get in line. As far as working at a menial job for a small wage, you only get paid what you are educated for, if you want a better job get an education.
13

R.A.McCartney,

Hampshire 23/07/2008 20:46:29
Martinh has got it wrong. I'm not complaining about criminals being forced to pick up litter. I object to sick or unemployed people being punished in this way.

He said that he found picking up litter as a conservation volunteer “dirty work, but ultimately rewarding”. I said:

“Voluntary or paid work can enhance people's mental health by providing social contact, fulfilment and a sense of self-worth. Being forced to do humiliating tasks will do the opposite.”

People often become mentally ill because they've suffered a lot and been treated unfairly. Being punished for being ill will only make that worse.

He volunteered, could work at his own pace, and rest or quit whenever he liked. Imagine what it would be like to be forced to do this against your will if you suffered from severe Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

What if you can't bear to be dirty, and washing with soap isn't good enough; if you have to scrape the skin off with a razor blade to feel clean. No matter what the pain, no matter how much you bleed, you have to get clean, What would it be like to be forced to do a dirty job? Bad on the first day, disastrous after that, when you've already scraped off the surface layers of skin.

Or what if you are convinced your child died because you didn't follow the right rituals, and your sole surviving child would die if you didn't do things “the right way”? What if that meant you couldn't just stick a spike in a piece of litter and pick it off the end? What if you had to stab it 99 times with the spike in your right hand, then stab it 99 times with your left? Most OCD sufferers find their symptoms get worse when they're under stress. Imagine what that would be like. Your child will die if you don't get it right; you've got an overseer harassing you and threatening to cut off your benefit if you don't “stop messing about”, and meanwhile other people are standing around laughing at you and making fun of you for your odd behaviour. Do you think that's goin
14

R.A.McCartney,

Hampshire 23/07/2008 21:08:45
AM2 says “There is nothing in the proposals about not treating people”. There doesn't have to be. This has been going on for a long time. The LSE is a highly reputable organisation, and they said three quarters of the mentally ill are not being treated at all. The 2008 Channel 4 film “Poppy Shakespeare” tried to draw attention to the fact that mentally ill people are being discharged in order to meet government targets.
15

R.A.McCartney,

Hampshire 23/07/2008 21:12:23
The last sentence of post 17 got truncated. It was "Do you think that's going to improve anyone's mental health?"
16

Love in a mist,

Edinburgh 24/07/2008 21:18:16
Surely we neither want to have people unnecessarily on benefit or working in poverty. It is probable that after the tendering process the responsibility for administering the system will be a private company. Their interest will be to make profit rather than to support the individuals concerned. In a humane society individuals on benefit must be treated with respect and dignity if we are to expect anything in return.

 

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