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Lazy Guide to Net Culture: Auf Wiedersehen Ingerlund

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Published Date:
03 July 2006
If you want to appear like you’re at the cutting edge of net culture but can’t be bothered to spend hours online, then never fear. Scotsman.com’s pathetic team of geeks, freaks and gimps will do the hard work for you. While you sip wine, read a book or engage in normal social interaction, they will burn out their retinas staring at badly designed web pages and dodge creeps in chatrooms to prepare for you: Scotsman.com’s lazy guide to net culture.
They're coming home. They're coming home. The England team are coming home. Three lions on the shirt. 40 years of hurt. And so on, on and inevitably on.

Th
e public flaying of Wayne Rooney, Sven Goran-Erikkson and Cristiano Ronaldo has begun as a nation mourns. From Penzance to Carlisle, football fans are reeling from the blow that England have failed to win the World Cup. Again.

I do not wish to intrude on public grief but it might be worth pointing out that winning the World Cup these days is a sporting triumph reserved for only the very best sporting nations. I mean disciplined, organised teams packed with talent - teams unlike England and most certainly unlike Scotland. With that in mind, it's no surprise that depression is sweeping like the Black Plague across the lands south of the Border: unrealistic expectations will always be dashed.

So it is that we see Sven apologising endlessly for failing to achieve the impossible and begging the English fans and media not to kill Wayne Rooney. Killing does seem harsh. Perhaps the English should start practising penalties before they resort to murdering people.

Obviously I take no pleasure in this distressing state of affairs. My lady wife hails from London and, before the Mundial began, we had a lively exchange of views which led to this form of words: "Ahem. I will not be supporting anyone at the World Cup as Scotland did not qualify. However, as a member of a confident, modern, European nation I have no qualms in wishing our southern neighbours all the best."

If only Jack McConnell had done the same. Only our First Minister could turn the question: "So, will you be watching the World Cup, then?" into an international (intranational?) incident. In fact, the comments left on the relevant articles by scotsman.com users suggest we are embroiled in a flame war that threatens the very fabric of the United Kingdom.

Everyone's getting a little bit too heated about this. Spoof news site TheVoiceOfReason.co.uk has the right idea: making a joke of all the pain.

Outgoing England coach, Swedish Sven, urged the press not to throw things at Rooney following his disastrous goolie crunching attack on a Portuguese player, last night. Rooney, 20, was not believed to be in any physical danger as sports reporters punch like girls, apart from the girls who punch like kittens.

WayneRooneyOnline, a Wayne Rooney fan site, tries another approach: glossing over what actually happened. It bizarrely fails to carry an article headlined "Rooney sent off, dooming England to World Cup exit."

A poster on Urban Dictionary - on a page with some very salty language - captures the feelings of many with their new definition of "Wayne Rooney":

A very talented football player that will never ever be able to control his temper or his love of … old grannies Wayne Rooney stamped on Carvalho's nuts and essentially got England put out of the 2006 world cup, much to my delight

Yes, the poster was Scottish…

However, the power of video really conveys the misery some England fans felt. One, t7mol, filmed the ritual burning of a Manchester United shirt with the name "Ronaldo" on it - despite being a United fan.

My personal tribute, as a Manchester United fan, to the piece of low-life scum with no morals and sense of loyalty

It's not very dramatic but certainly heartfelt, given the lingering shots of melting fabric. A less personal, but equally emotive experience can be had via films taken by fans watching England and Portugal take penalties on big screens. Note the way the heads go down at the end in in this clip in stark contrast to the earlier jubilation. Are you Scotland in disguise?

Then watch this clip. Yes, it's the Portuguese fans. So that's what winning's like. Looks nice…



The full article contains 754 words and appears in scotsman.com newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Lord Pasternack,

Glasgow 03/07/2006 00:00:00

I'm offended by that.

Moderator!

2

Realist,

Suffolk 03/07/2006 00:00:00

To Ken....ha ha ha ha ha!!!

3

Lord Pasternack,

Glasgow 03/07/2006 00:00:00

Scottish "race"?

Undermine...? Eh?

Worse than the Daily Record?!

What the...?

*Says reassuring things to Mr. Kirkpatrick.*

4

Ken,

03/07/2006 00:00:00

Well done the scotsman, you have underminded the scottish race once again. Why do you have to do this, is it because you need the english readership to keep your head afloat?
You are the worst type of journalism, even worse than the sun & Daily Record.
What will you do not england are out? what will you use to undermine confidence in Scotland. I shudder to think.

5

Johnni,

Edinburgh 04/07/2006 00:00:00

I'd just like everyone to know that I am NOT anti-English. I have English relatives and I lke England as a neighbouring country I can visit whenever I like.
It was never about the English per se ... it was about their over-hyped not-as-good-as-they-think-they-are team!!! And the endless blowhards of the English Media who think EVERY English team is a World-Cup-winning-team!! NO THEY ARE NOT! And they can (as we've seen) foul opponents as weel as ANY expensive footballer!
At least when Scotland play, we expect to get cuffed ... and it's a nice surprise when the amount of cuffing is not as much as it could be! Of course, it's even better when it's not England who cuffs us!
Yes ... it's nice when we win a game or three though! (Nice? Ha!!! Miracle more like!)
But ... when Scotland wins ... we party. And when we lose ... we still party!

There's the difference. The attitude!!!

6

Conner_Mcleod,

Wellington, New Zealand 04/07/2006 00:00:00

Personally Im glad the English are back home, now we dont have to put up with their intolerable bleating, some idiot from the sun was having a go at Scottish Mp's on sky news this morning (NZ time), you could just tell it was nought to do with that but sour grapes and bad losers again from the English, aww none of us Scots would support their medicore football team, shame en it? to coin an English phrase.

7

Conner_Mcleod,

Wellington, New Zealand 04/07/2006 00:00:00

Re: Willliam
‘and assaulting in a group of ten (or thereabouts) a lone Englishman’ Nah nothing like that happens in jolly old england mate does it mate? Nah you lot just beat to death black kids like ‘Stephen Lawrence’

8

Scotty,

edinburgh 04/07/2006 00:00:00

wlliam, remember 96 when rampaging England fans went mad in central London smashing up Audis and BMW's...........or Sunday night when the Portuguese minority on Jersey had to be protected from Englsih hoards? Subtle? a ha ha ha !!!

9

Scotty,

edinburgh 04/07/2006 00:00:00

well said Johnni
I was actually supporting England as a result of 16 years living down south, english wife, mates and english football team with international players but I can fully understand why Scots want England to lose. My grandad was killed by Germans in the war yet my father would always support Germany against England. Jimmy Hill, Emlyn Hughes et al have a lot to answer for

10

Alastair,

04/07/2006 00:00:00

English TV presenters can be as biased as they want about their own team as long as its only English people who are watching it.

When you force folk from another country to watch the same programmes no doubt its going to irritate and go against the grain.

If anybody suggest we can switch off then tell me where should we watch it and why should we switch off if we want to watch the game.

Give us Scottish presenters, would solve it all.

11

William,

04/07/2006 00:00:00

Scotland has truly enhanced its reputation by beating up: a 7-year-old child and a parapleguic, and assaulting in a group of ten (or thereabouts) a lone Englishman. I habe rather more subtle ways of damaging those who would harm me.

12

RAVIS,

the borders 04/07/2006 00:00:00

thank almighty god in his beach side hut that Enghulund have been booted oot of the mundial. i'm english - kind of - and i for one can't see what the fuss was aall aboot. it's a game. a game that the enghulund team nivver had a chance to win. considering the amount of zingoistic lunacy aboot during the world cup, i dread to think how insuffrable the english would have been in victory (they were pretty insuffrable in germany ho ho ho)

maybe now we can get back to important news matters, like who's next to leave the big brutha hoose.

13

robbie runciman,

lydd 04/07/2006 00:00:00

I note one of the commentors on the site talks about constant bleating from north of the border. I have to say, whilst scotland has its share of numpties, what surprised me about the english (sorry national)press was why they kept going on about it. numerous articles about the union, how much it costs to provides services in scotland etc etc. I could say its just england realised that no-one loves them or was it more sinister and political. Who knows or cares. I think when they rationalize the world cup, they will realise that when all the best players in england actually play for the other teams, then obviously the quality of the team has to suffer.

14

Conner_Mcleod,

04/07/2006 00:00:00

Cheers for that Paul, actually Alex i happen to be born and bred in auld reekie. The nature of my job has taken me to many countries (havent made it to Canada yet Paul but heard its lovely) over the years including England where i lived for a couple of years. And i have to say that whilst in England i found that the majority are friendly, but this myth that they want us to win is exactly that MYTH, and don't let any Englishman tell you otherwise because they'd be lying through their teeth. They say they don't care one way or the other about Scotland, that being the case why do they sing 'Are you Scotland in Disguise?' when they are winning? We are still their biggest enemy on the football field, and they know it, they love to beat us and vice versa! Pity the wont bring back the home internationals but i fear there would be possible trouble from hooligans, pity that though. I used to look forward to the England game at the end of the season, been to a few in the past both at Hampden and Wembley (loved that weekend).

15

Paul,

Canada 04/07/2006 00:00:00

Hey Alex, get your head out of your ass mate. Did you stop to think that perhaps Scott is over in NZ expanding his horizons and checking out a different culture? I lived in Scotland for 2 years and would love to live there longer. Does that make me less patriotic to Canada? Should I not read the Scotsman because I'm not Scottish? What holds your country back is the same as what holds mine back. It's people like you. You're as bad as the red necks over here in Western Canada. I expected more out of a Brit. Silly me.

As for the football, I've been told over here that I shoudl not rejoice in Englands loss because we are Commonwealth. Ha!! Not likely. Go France!!

16

Lord Pasternack,

Glasgow 04/07/2006 00:00:00

To Allan of comment 14: I was conceived while my parents were stranded in a rubber dinghy in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. What nationality does that make me?

... In all truth, my forename and surname are both Scottish, most of my heredity is Scottish, a wee bit Irish, and I have an Indian great great grandfather from Imperial times, just to add a bit of spice to the mixture. (Pun? Me?)

I have a quiet satisfaction that England are out of the World Cup. I can't be bothered rationalising it right now though.

17

Sneak,

Shenyang china 04/07/2006 00:00:00

I can't believe people are still rabbiting on about this rubbish. Get a life people!

I think the following artical sums things up rather well http://sport.scotsman.com/tennis.cfm?id=967822006

For myself i dont see why anyone from Scotland, Wales or Northen Ireland should be obliged to suport or feel apologetic for not supporting England, after all when was it that mediocrity and banality became a good thing to support? The only talent England truly has is hyping themselves out of all recognition.

In regards to nationalism (outwith a sporting context), none of us get to choose where we are born. I am Scottish, I was born in dundee because well my parents had sex there. Flag waving is rubbish, what people should do is have a realistic flag, one that represents why your are of that nation...a flag with a pic of your mum and dad having sex...see how many people rally a round that flag!?!?

P.S. Those who go on about the unsavoury incidents are living in denial that these things don't happen in your country. Time to take off the rose coloured glasses people.

18

William,

Netherlands 04/07/2006 00:00:00

Alastair - football presenters indeed. Roll on purely English presenters of sports programmes south of the border. I reckon we need to disband or reform the BBC so that we can all get what we want. As it now stands neither of us is satisfied. And as for Newsnight, how can I possibly accept Kirsty Walk as an impartial political commentator given her business dealings with the Scottish parliament building. Ultimately I don't object to any degree or form of Scottish assertiveness as long as the process is mutual. Would you care to say whether your irritation with broadcasting is limited to the BBC or not.

19

acha,

Scotland 04/07/2006 00:00:00

Re scott, Wellington, New Zealand

Well you clearly love Scotland so much you live in New Zealand. It's people with attitudes like yours that hold Scotland back, so probably a good thing you dont live here !

20

Alastair,

04/07/2006 00:00:00

William, I have to agree, Kirsty Wark's dealings stick in most peoples throat but news is mainly read in an impartial manner, sport is not. Regarding sport, of course its not just the BBC, ITV had us listening to English supporters doing the commentary. You would think it was odd if the German population listened to a couple of German speaking French doing the commentary tonight, easy way to start a fight I'd say but no in the name of the UK we have to put up with each other. Just sport, just Scottish or English with no bias at all and how would you expect them to be like that.

21

William,

Netherlands 04/07/2006 00:00:00

ITV escaped my attention, as I only get BBC on cable here abroad. But I see what you mean. They'll need some pressure then, so that they reflect our wishes. The situation as it is now reminds me more of Belgium where tensions often arise between the Flemish (Dutch-speaking) and Walloon (French-speaking) populations. They have separate channels to avoid annoying each other.

22

dan,

London 04/07/2006 00:00:00

". My grandad was killed by Germans in the war yet my father would always support Germany against England"

Is he a bit thick?

23

Lord Pasternack,

Yer Maw 04/07/2006 00:00:00

To be honest - sprawling metropolises are not my scene.

This is:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v517/andrewcruze/Scotla...

Once I can airbrush out the electricity pylons...

And you may be surprised to hear that there are actually some men south of the border who would not be put off by a very broad accent coupled with a tartan miniskirt.

Although they may still be put off by the weather.

24

dan,

London 04/07/2006 00:00:00

I'm more than a little bit Scottish, I used to consider myself half Scottish - not any more, not least cos of the racism I experienced watching the T&T match in Edinburgh. I have to say that the constant bleating coming from north of the border during the world cup has grown very tiresome. England fans don't care if you support England (or not). This has gone beyond football though - you are insulting the country of my birth. A bit of neighbourly good manners would be nice. If you all hate England so much, feel free to vote to leave the Union. I actually don't think you would be missed. Let England be England (I'm not talking about race here - just people who love the land - unlike someplaces I could mention the vast majority don't care about race down here - just look at the amazing metropolis that is London and tell me different...)

25

Ploppy,

04/07/2006 00:00:00

If nothing else, I think we can all agree that nobody likes Kirsty Wark.

26

Conner_Mcleod,

Wellington, New Zealand 05/07/2006 00:00:00

To Steve, if you had read the thread which you obviously did not (why do people make comments on converstaions they have only half read?) you would know that Alex trying to have a dig at us Scots over that incident. I was just making out like Duncan so rightly pointed out. Dont come over all rightous when your own backyard is not so wonderful, hence the reference to 'Stephen Lawrence’ I really think that the English to call us racist over a silly incident like the kiwi kid by some drunk (in all probabilty, all countries have them) pales into comparison with the aforementioned case and many other incidents of racial hatred that is so part of the English culture. Hence the rise of the BNP as a political force in England, need i say more. I suggest you try reading the news properly Steve and not the gutter (im a sheep and believe it all) press, it can be quite enlightening sometimes!

27

Lord Pasternack,

Glasgow 05/07/2006 00:00:00

Thanks for articulating what I thought, Scott (comment 36). I was baffled as to what some of the responses to that comment were all about, and how someone could think that the commenter was trying to excuse the Stephen Lawrence murder - or whatever they thought while responding.

But I decided that it was simply due to the fact that there are some people on this earth who just don't get it. I got apathetic, and couldn't be bothered making another post lest I reveal myself to be the in-house blether with too much spare time on my hands.

Aye, "Heather the blether"... (One step ahead of you.) My father came up with it long before you did... (Jaded look.)

28

Gerard,

05/07/2006 00:00:00

Now that the football (sorry - soccer for Yanks reading this) has finished as far as natives of these isles is concerned (though it will be interesting to see who plays Italy) can we put all this sniping to rest? There are other sports. I'm looking forward to the 2012 Olympics here in London - at least everyone in the UK can cheer for the same team then!

Also, rather than sniping at each other when internationals are played, why not reserve it for when the four nations of the UK play each other? Isn't it time to revive the Home Nations competition? No one will blame Scots for cheering when England lose against their team then! (Though as an Irishman, I might be in a pickle of which of these two to support - some of my ancestors came from Scotland, and I live in England - but at least Scots and English won't have that problem).

Also - please, please, whatever the result, keep the reactions both peaceful and amicable. I was very impressed at the reaction of both Aussie and English fans when after a remarkable game, England beat Australia in the rugby world cup in 2002. There were no riots, opposing fans smiled at each other and shook hands. An example for us all, surely.

29

Adrian in Dallas,

Dallas, Texas USA 05/07/2006 00:00:00

You guys are talking about soccer, aren't you? Who won?

(And yes, I'm funnin' ya!)

30

Sneak,

Shenyang China 05/07/2006 00:00:00

Heather Commet 20 " I was conceived while my parents were stranded in a rubber dinghy in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. What nationality does that make me? "

I think that would make you an Atlantean!

31

Duncan,

'Doon Sooth' 05/07/2006 00:00:00

Steve is quite right that there is NO justification for the harming of any child.
Scott maybe chose an example that was in the extreme but known by everyone to make the point that owners of green houses shouldn't throw stones.

If we are the deeply honourable Scots we are meant to be we should practice a bit of tolerance. But it needs to be reciprocated so that we know our efforts are not for naught.

32

Lord Pasternack,

Glasgow 05/07/2006 00:00:00

"I think that would make you an Atlantean!"

How quaint. But really, place of birth, not conception is more important to nationality.

Like, I thought my dad was a b***ard, because he was conceived out of wedlock. But his parents married when he was three months inside his mother's womb, and he was born inside wedlock.

33

Duncan,

Telford 05/07/2006 00:00:00

As a Scotsman I was saddened to see England out of the cup.
Yes that's right a SCOTSMAN upset at ENGLANDS removal from the cup.
Not because I have emigrated south of the border (well the Queen [God bless her] did ask nicely if I wouldn't mind coming down here for a bit).
Actually I was into a deal for a case of free beer from every country England played. Well got a good run out of it!

Re Heathers comment on Tartan mini-skirts and accents I can confirm there is quite a few Ladies down here who appretiate a man in a Tartan 'skirt'!!

At the end of the day 'ITS A GAME' it used to be designed so we could support our team and meet folk from other areas and enjoy some good wholesome sport. At the end of the game we would get together commiserate with the loosers and celebrate the winners.
You followed your heart when it came to choosing who you supported, how can you support a team that just doesn't float your boat?

Oh and a note to our American cousins England IS NOT the whole of Great Britian (United Kingdom) it also comprises Wales, Scotland and Northen Ireland oh yes and Cornwall!!
So please stop calling the whole pile England

You have a nice day now!

34

Lord Pasternack,

Glasgow 05/07/2006 00:00:00

"...natives of these isles is concerned..."

Natives of these isles ARE concerned.

You made a good point though. There's Stewart calling folk who don't care about the World Cup Philistines, and yet football fans contain the largest proportion of Philistines than of any other sport I've ever seen.

Rugby players also make football players look like a bunch of little sissies. Have you noticed that?

35

MikeIsAlreadyTaken,

Edinburgh 05/07/2006 00:00:00

If the politicians can't behave themselves in Westminster, what chance have a few scottish neds have? I have heard lots of whining from south of the border about the undue influence of Scottish MP's, and not wanting to have a Gordon Brown as PM purely because he is Scottish.
Another recent article somewhere was complaining about scottish authorities being given control over teh whole of the River Tweed, which is 'only' 90% scottish.

Getting back to sport, people like David Coulthard were hailed as 'British' until Jenson Button came along, but it is the cross of St George that is waved for Jenson, and the Union Flag for scots in any sport - these continued insults may be un-intentional but they certainly occur.

36

Steve,

05/07/2006 00:00:00

To Scott in New Zealand...

So you feel that because Stephen Lawrence was horrifically murdered thats justification for a noble Scotsman to punch a seven year old child?

I am all for freedom of speech, but really that someone is stupid enough to compare use the universally denounced, horrific murder of Stephen Lawrence as point scoring exercise I just beyond me.

You should be ashamed of yourself, as I and many other decent scots are.

37

Sneak,

Shenyang China 06/07/2006 00:00:00

Heather (35)

You seemed to have missed the point.
The point i was trying to make is how daft nationalism is, none of us (with the exception of people who migtate) get to choose our nationality. Thus the more realistic flag in my original point. Flags are really a way of rallying the sheep amongst us. I may have made light of it but the point is still valid.

However i agree about your reference to rugby V football...I like to think of the difference as follows, Football is a game for gentlemen played by hooligans and rugby is a game for hooligans played by gentlemen! But then i come from a rugby background to am a little biased.

38

WHISTLEBLOWER,

Edinburgh 06/07/2006 00:00:00

I think the real racists are the people who sent over 10,000 inflatable spitfires to Germany, and who mention WWII constantly, despite the fact that most Germans weren't even born then and two states (east and west) have come and gone in that time. For some reason both the Scottish and British press have been quiet on how the UK has an unhealthy obsession with the Third Reich.

My feeling about England is that they are good, but not that good. I've nothing against England as a team, but don't believe the hype.

39

Sharpy,

Wellington 06/07/2006 00:00:00

10,000 inflatable spitfires LOL I wish I had thought of that one LMAO
PS Since when have England been good? At what??
was it 1066 or 1966?

Still LOL

40

Duncan,

Telford 06/07/2006 00:00:00

Wolves and Sheep
I would be a bit cautious about calling folk who rally to the flag sheep. Many men & women have died defending the colours of their country or regiment.
Infact during the Napoleonic wars it was a matter of regimental disgrace if the enemy were to obtain the colours.
Besides is there anything wrong with a bit of nationalism?
If we were not proud of our respective countries how could we expect to obtain the support of our fellow countrymen when we set out to do something, be it sailing round the world, the first succesfull space mission to Mars or winning a medal at the olympics. If we didn't have some sort of nationalism who would care?
But if you are talking about extreme nationalism that appears to be practised in countries such as China (I mention this as I'm sure Allan will correct me if I am wrong) things can go a bit far.

41

Sneak,

shenyang china 06/07/2006 00:00:00

Duncan

Why should i be cautious...would i be branded a traitor and hung for voicing my opinion?
Nothing wrong with being proud of your country and but it is the "my country is better than your country" attitude that should frankly be left to the school yard...it is only a stepping stone to the extreme nationaism as can be seen in some of the responces in other articals on the same topic.

However, in reference to china, not really sure what exactly you refer to...perhaps you can enlighten me?! As far as i have experienced don't get much of that here! Everyone wants to be just like the USA. But if you mean the fact that they still run nightly shows about the Japanese occuaption and the atrocities they commited, but then the Japanese goverment still hasn't appologies for that and indeed doesn't think that they did anything wrong. But that is a slightly different kettle of fish to the topic here. If you have some informtion that i do not have please bring me up to speed.

42

Duncan,

yep still here 06/07/2006 00:00:00

Maybe a couple of century's ago you would have been hung out to dry in Edinburgh (as were a couple of gentlemen for drinking the Kings health!)
But everyone has right to their own opinion and a hopefully tolerant society would listen politley.
Yes the my dads better than your dad is taking it a wee bit to far across the line.
But while voicing opinions I would hope anyone would be respectfull of the feelings of those around, at the end of the day when you are voicing your opinion you are trying to get people to see things your way. Why not take a Chinese flag into the center of your town and set fire to it and see how many listen to your point of view then?
It would appear that due to nationalistic thinking, China had trouble agreeing over boundry disputes with India and Vietnam (also the Soviet Union). Tibet is also sited as the nationalistic attitude that everyone should bow to the central goverment and those who do not will be shot or exiled.
The village elections that have been held to allow self governance have turned into a sham with villagers being prevented from voting or cadre's holding the majority so the central goverment can keep a "zampolit" (thought police) in place so no 'coup de'tat' could take place, so much so that villagers live in fear of being imprisoned for merely voting against the goverment.
While China is a great country maybe some of its members need to tone down their nationalism.

Hey from Football to Chinese Nationalism in 41 easy steps maybe football is to blame for everything LoL

43

Sneak,

shenyang china 06/07/2006 00:00:00

Duncan, (RE 41) that has everything to do with poiltical power and little to do with national identity! There is a world of difference.

As for the flag burning, i believe the same fate would await me if i did that in Scotland England USA or anywhere. And makes you think about the mentality of people that get upset by a piece of cloth on fire!

Incidentally (RE 38) "how could we expect to obtain the support of our fellow countrymen when we set out to do something, be it sailing round the world, the first succesfull space mission to Mars or winning a medal at the olympics. If we didn't have some sort of nationalism who would care?"

If we consider ourselves a human race as one whole then there would be no problem in doing any of these things (esspessially the space mission)! Evolution doesn't have to end with thumbs!

44

William,

06/07/2006 00:00:00

Steve is quite right that there is NO justification for the harming of any child.
Scott maybe chose an example that was in the extreme but known by everyone to make the point that owners of greenhouses shouldn't throw stones.

If we are the deeply honourable English we are meant to be we should practice a bit of tolerance. But it needs to be reciprocated so that we know our efforts are not for naught.

45

Lord Pasternack,

The centre of the universe, looking down on you 06/07/2006 00:00:00

"If we consider ourselves a human race as one whole then there would be no problem in doing any of these things (esspessially the space mission)!"

(*Especially.)

Imagine there's no countries...

...You may sa-a-a-ay I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope some da-a-a-ay you'll join us. And the wo-o-o-orld will live as one.

Aye.

So, right, we don't get to choose our parents, so should we forgo a special relationship with them? Just a thought.

I'm not suggesting that in the 21st century, nationalism should be as prevalent and in some cases, ridiculous as it is - but people do have a right to be proud of their heritage and whatnot.

It's a kind of tribalism on a grander scale I suppose. But only a few hundred years ago (a nanosecond in evolutionary terms) we were a mostly purely tribal species. It's part of us.

As is a sense of "culture", which divides us.

The thing that has actually tended to have united most nations that exist currently is the "my enemy's enemy is my friend" mentality. On that note, my esteemed friend Mathew once stated that we would never unite simply as the human race unless/until aliens invaded the earth. And frankly, that's racist to aliens...

For the record also - nationality does not equate to race.

It might not appeal to the keenly rational out there, but it's how it is. And that's my tuppence.

46

Sneak,

shenyang china 07/07/2006 00:00:00

Heather (44) "So, right, we don't get to choose our parents, so should we forgo a special relationship with them? Just a thought." - totally different thing altogether, lets stick to comparing apples with apples shall we!

but people do have a right to be proud of their heritage and whatnot." - Nobody said they shouldn't!


"For the record also - nationality does not equate to race." - Actually nationality as you put it is a subdivision of race, a tribe if you will!

"The thing that has actually tended to have united most nations that exist currently is the "my enemy's enemy is my friend" mentality. On that note, my esteemed friend Mathew once stated that we would never unite simply as the human race unless/until aliens invaded the earth. And frankly, that's racist to aliens..." - And that is the one thing that stop further progress and until people learn to think for themselves and not what their social programing tells them it will always be a barrier, but then as independant human beings we all have the ability and responsibility to do exactly that think for ourselves. Kind of reminds me of the Bill Hicks quote "You are free to do exactly what the goverment tells you to do!"

And that is my tuppence!

47

A J,

England 07/07/2006 00:00:00

On the subject of the media - I sometimes wonder how many of these stunts are actually set up by them. There was a report that some England fans, in Germany, had been offered money by a Korean TV firm to chuck a few bottles at rival fans and generally cause a ruck. They turned it down, apparently.

The stunt with the car in Glasgow was arranged by the press, what about the flag burning thing as well, there always seems to be a camera crew, nearby ready to film it all. They don't just report the news a lot of the time they actively make it as well!!

Never, ever let it be said that they let the truth get in the way of a good story!

48

Lord Pasternack,

I should be still in bed at this time. 07/07/2006 00:00:00

This time in the day is my idea of first thing in the morning. Always has been. Even when I used to get up at 07:05.

So, quickly: Nationality has but the most tenuous relationship to race in definition. Even more tenuous than the relationship between the now popularly confused words, "random" and "spontaneous" (and sometimes "gratuitous"). This has nothing to do with you, but it gets right on my mammaries nonetheless.

Nationality is where ye come fae. Race is: "A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics."

Often intertwined, but not to be confused.

And still, I don't see what the problem is in the comparison. You don't get to choose either your parents, where you're born, or your first name.

OK, your parents are people, rather than a stretch of land. But the fact that you couldn't choose them doesn't demean your relationship with them in any way, so why should it demean how you feel about the country you've lived in all your life. (Not suggesting you out to love your country as much as you love yer ma 'n' da, either.)

I'd love to have a lively philosophical, sociological discussion with you. But this isn't the time nor the place (think of the moderators), and I have neither the time nor the energy right now.

I'd be still in my bed if I had a bedside clock. My dad's put a code on the telly and a new password on my account on the PC since he knows I worked out the last one, and those are my only means of telling the time.

But, I worked out the password of his account too! Ha! (I love my dad.)

49

A J,

England 07/07/2006 00:00:00

I don't think anyone but the media expected Scotland to support England in the World Cup. (Actually I don't think they did either but they like a wind up - it sells papers). Anyone, who understands football that is...........I am a Chelsea fan and I cannot and will not support Arsenal ....... I know it's childish but that's the way it is. My Dad was the same, so is my son. We can't even bring ourselves to wear the England away (red) shirt because it's the same colour as Arsenal!!

The majority of English football fans would not support Scotland either .............. although there would be support from people who weren't that bothered about football and it's childish old rivalries!!

England promised so much and yet failed to deliver - with the amount of money that they all get paid it's a disgrace really. The media are a complete pain in the wotsit and go over the top about every little thing. So, when a big thing like the WC comes round they are out doing one another with the hype.

Also, think (as a cynic) that the footie is being used as a tool by the Tory press (among others) to whip up anti-Scots feeling to oust the Labour government, which has a lot of Scots in it. There's always an agenda to these things.

Don't really mind who wins - I like both France and Italy, but slightly favour France as have spent some happy times there.

50

Sneak,

07/07/2006 00:00:00

AJ (48) "Don't really mind who wins - I like both France and Italy, but slightly favour France as have spent some happy times there."

I want France to win as it would be nice for Zidane to finish his career with a second WC winners medal.

51

A J,

England 07/07/2006 00:00:00

Agree with you there Allan, he's certainly looking good for it!

52

Patrick - (English, Irish & Scottish background),

Germany 08/07/2006 00:00:00

Reading until 51 (he made sense of the whole issue) has been an interesting expose of United (un-United) Kingdom.

An East German (1979) media company came to Liverpool and took pictures of the worst areas within Liverpool and presented them on a political East German TV as to how the British people lived. My Liverpool friend was astonished and outraged to see this programme and the outlandish way Liverpool had been depicted and used to appease/influence the people of a communist state.

Some years later my friends in Germany (1986) came to Scotland and remarked on the poverty in the inner cities of Scotland (also Manchester and Bradford). They were very surprised to see such appalling conditions, and bit of a shock!

The Scots have a point regarding the English media and the English dislike the fact that Scotland does not support England in winning anything!

The English resent the Scottish feelings and are at the same time bemused why this is so. Football is just a small case in point, and appears to drag out the resentment on other more important issues?

The truth is both have points of view that are correct and incorrect, and at best these comments can only reflect a personal position. Having live in the UK, USA, Germany, Austraila and New Zealand I can understand the resentment Scots have on a wider front.

For interestingly, each one of the (non UK) countries populace (and many others worldwide) see England as predominantly the United Kingdom, and mention often England/London as Great Britain or simply synonymous. Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland are seen as pleasant regions of the United Kingdom to be visited, and rarely understand the differences between the so called national identities.

Abroad nobody appreciates the independant nature of the "National" govening bodies, and basically views them as local entities with little or no influence on the world scene...sadly.

Recently I was in Canada (2

53

,

08/07/2006 00:00:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 9000, Article id was mapped to record!
54

scotty14,

Stratford, Ontario Canada 08/07/2006 00:00:00

Wishing for something doesn't make it come to pass. Once again the English press and certain deluded fans have come crashing down to earth with the realisation that their much-vaunted "Golden Generation" is not what it was cracked up to be, and it is turning green at the edges, as base metal.
Because there is so much contempt expressed by the English press and certain fans at Scottish football this view is reciprocated, perverse as this view may be, by many Scots.
William blames Scotland as a country, for the atrocious action of a single deranged person, this is NOT fair comment as I am sure they have plenty "Looney Tunes" down south.

55

A J,

England 10/07/2006 00:00:00

Sad to see Zidane finish his career like that last night. Methinks, however, that there was provocation, still no excuse for his retaliation. I thought France was the better side but congratulations to Italy - the new world champions.l


 

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