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Teachers hit out at 'campus cops'



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Published Date: 09 June 2008
TEACHERS have hit out at police officers stationed in Scotland's schools. Members of the EIS, Scotland's largest teaching union, have voted overwhelmingly for tougher limits on their powers amid fears that teachers were, in effect, being used as informers.
Teachers backed a motion banning officers in schools from disciplining children or charging them with crimes. And Helen Connor, vice-president of the union, said she wanted police removed from schools completely.

Ms Connor said she was concerned schemes which bring officers into schools could turn teachers into "grasses" and criticised the practice of officers being parachuted into schools without consulting teachers.

There are currently 46 police officers working in at least 50 schools across 11 local authorities.

Ms Connor said: "When we asked one local authority why this had happened, and why these three schools had been chosen, the answer they gave was that communities around these schools had particular difficulties with the 15-17-year age group.

"Why then, I ask, were the police officers put into the schools and not extra officers put into the community?

"They were looking for intelligence gathering, they wanted staff in school to tell them about what the young people were doing. That's not why I came into teaching. I did not think I would ever see, in Scotland, police officers in schools."

Northfield Academy in Aberdeen was one of the first schools to have its own police. Campus cops have also been introduced in North Ayrshire, Glasgow and South Lanarkshire.

Last year North Lanarkshire announced two schools in Coatbridge and one in Wishaw would be given a full-time constable in a £400,000 scheme.

Last year, two officers were assigned to Tynecastle and Boroughmuir high schools in Edinburgh in a year-long pilot.

Four more schools, not yet chosen, will be assigned officers in the capital after a report revealed the move improved behaviour and reduced exclusions.

But speaking at the annual conference on Saturday, Ms Connor called for detailed procedures to be drawn up on the role and duties of school police officers before they are installed.

A motion demanding headteachers retain full control, officers are not involved in disciplining and cannot charge pupils with offences was passed overwhelmingly by delegates.

She added: "I don't think there should be campus police officers at all. These people should be in the community looking at the problems of society; but if we do have them we should have them with an agreed protocol."

Patrick Cullen, from North Lanarkshire, said his school lost valuable teaching space last year for a dedicated police office with a direct link to the police computer system.

He accepted the officers could make a valuable contribution to pastoral care but said they should never be enforcers of school discipline.

And he doubted having officers on site would help children who suffer from troubled home lives to feel safer.

In 2006 East Renfrewshire placed three full-time officers at Woodfarm High in Thornliebank, Eastwood High in Newton Mearns and Barrhead High.

In one year the council saw a 14 per cent drop in levels of vandalism, street drinking and assault and the authority is looking to expand the scheme to Mearns Castle High.

In August last year Kenny MacAskill, the justice secretary, visited Barrhead High to investigate alternatives to antisocial behaviour orders.

A spokesman for East Renfrewshire council said: "We have had police officers in schools for two years and everyone concerned has been delighted.

"None of the schools were picked because there had been problems. If we could have a campus cop in each of our seven high schools, we would."

The East Renfrewshire scheme is based on a Danish model and was recently praised by school inspectors, HMIe.

It costs £178,000 annually and is currently funded by Scottish Government cash, which is due to run out next year.

School police officers work full-time Monday to Friday from an office within the building.

A key aim is early intervention to prevent troubled youngsters' bad behaviour spiralling into criminality, but backers say it also helps foster better relations between pupils and the police.

Having a visible police presence also deters pupils fighting and adults parking on zig-zag lines or speeding past school gates, and can help catch offenders, backers of the scheme claim.

A drug addict who slashed a teacher after school at Crookford Primary in Newton Mearns last year was caught by the campus officer based at Eastwood High across the road.

PC Susan Greer was able to identify and arrest the assailant the following day by scrutinising both school and police CCTV footage.

The council spokesman added: "Staff have been very supportive of the move. The idea of a police officer encouraging teachers to act as some kind of grass or secret agent is absolute nonsense. We have found the officers have a real role in discipline, which is very supported by the staff in those schools. By their very presence they have been able to solve problems and act as a deterrent."

A spokesman for the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland, which forms policing policy, said the intention was to make pupils and staff feel safer.

He said: "It is up to the chief constable of a particular force if he or she feels it would reassure the public, and that includes school children.

"Teachers' authority has diminished, as has the authority of bus drivers and shop keepers.

"Life has changed and the EIS really has to look at what life is like – in many areas of the UK there is a need for this."

John Carnochan, detective chief superintendent and head of the Violence Reduction Unit, said campus officers performed a unique role: "They are not there to police classrooms, they're there to build stronger community relationships and act as positive role models for children who may lack such a figure in their lives."

He added: "A preliminary report on the experiences of two schools in 2006 highlighted that they feel having a campus officer had been beneficial both to the school and its pupils and to the community at large."

The Scottish Government is to carry out a national evaluation of the role. A spokeswoman said: "Clearly any work to ensure that future generations of young Scots do not become caught up in a culture of violence that is blighting too many communities is to be welcomed."

Future funding for East Renfrewshire's scheme would be carefully considered, she said.

'Campus cop' is first-class in improving relationship between force and pupils

COLLEAGUES of PC Mark Armstrong now jokingly accuse him of going native.

When the officer started at Barrhead High School in East Renfrewshire two years ago, he struggled to understand the education jargon.

Now he happily chats about the Curriculum for Excellence and attainment, to the extent that other police officers joke he is turning into a teacher.

Before taking the post, PC Armstrong was a regular school visitor, giving talks to pupils about the work of police dogs.

Now a firm fixture at the school, he still greets pupils and staff at the front gates each morning and sees them off at the end of every day.

He is one of three "campus cops" based at three secondary schools in East Renfrewshire.

The aim is for officers to act as role models, improving relationships between pupils and police, and to intervene before children become involved in criminal activity.

East Renfrewshire is a low-crime area, but the streets around Barrhead High have had a high incidence of offences, such as fighting, drinking and vandalism.

Since PC Armstrong opened his office in the school, the level of crime reported in the area has dropped by 14 per cent.

In October, the former drug awareness officer at Strathclyde Police organised an anti-sectarianism march with pupils from both non-denominational Barrhead High and nearby Catholic school, St Luke's.

He also launched a cycle-to-school scheme – which has seen 20 pupils swap the bus for the bike – and a campaign to encourage children to help clean up litter.

Pupils come to him with queries, ranging from whether they can get into trouble from riding miniature motorbikes, to how they can become police officers.

A council spokesman said: "He is very highly regarded and has had a massive impact on the school."

The officer, who always wears his police uniform, but without the stab-proof vest, attends a meeting of the joint support team each week along with teachers, deputy heads, the school psychologist and social workers.

He warns teachers if a pupil's parents have been involved with the police – for example, if a father assaults a mother and the youngster saw it – to enable school staff to understand if a particular child's behaviour might be caused by personal circumstances.

IN NUMBERS

46
Campus cops are estimated to be on duty across Scotland.

35
Of those are in the Strathclyde Police area .

11
Local authorities have police officers in schools.

14
Per cent reduction in street crime, such as vandalism, as a result of the scheme in East Renfrewshire in just two years.

3
Years since Scotland's longest serving campus officer, PC Geoff Smith, arrived at St Mungo's in Glasgow's East End.

12
Pupils have applied to be police cadets at St Mungo's since PC Smith started at the school.

The full article contains 1566 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 08 June 2008 11:43 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Teaching , Law and Order
 
1

Senga Jean,

Scotland 09/06/2008 00:08:32
The caravan moves on. Labour and sleaze party are no longer in opposition they are fomenting unrest. Take this story as an example. Communities have been begging for years for funding for this police action. AND LO IT HAS been revealed as a bad idea. BY WHOM? Oh dear Oh dear.
2

Conan the Librarian™,

09/06/2008 00:12:33
Ms Conner has her head in the clouds.
These schools need a police presence, since teachers can no longer rely on the belt, or the janny to come to their aid.
The only people that can restrain 15 to 17 year old "children" without the said children trying to get them charged, are the police.

Is she insane?
3

,

09/06/2008 00:26:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

Fifi la Bonbon,

09/06/2008 00:33:29
Senga Jean, what stimulants have the cybernats been giving you to keep you awake at night? Most Councils that introduced campus cops are Labour-led, or were under Labour leadership when the schemes were introduced. Shame on you for trying to make this a sectarian party political issue.

The only people who are opposing this are some eejits in the EIS, and nobody - including most teachers - takes them seriously. Councils and the police should not be expected to "consult" their teaching staff about this initative any more than teachers should get a veto on anything else. And the idea that somehow cops should be banned from charging criminals who commit crimes at school is ridiculous. I think the EIS delegates were on the same stuff as Senga Jean.

Let's hope the Scottish government finds the money to continue supporting and expanding the initative.
5

Conan the Librarian™,

09/06/2008 00:36:31
3
Itchyanus.
If you commented about the things you to know about, which seems to be the contents of Blacks Medical Dictionary, we might be bothered.
6

Conan the Librarian™,

09/06/2008 00:39:25
4
WTF?
Try and read MY post and not the one under it.
7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 09/06/2008 00:47:10

Hi Conan, hope you are well, you seem to be in good forum! :)

Anyways re the Subject!

I always thought their was more to,..
'Noddy' and Mr 'Plod'!

Now I Know!

8

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 09/06/2008 01:02:06

A Friend of Alternative Mighty Mario Voltaire @#10,

Do you not remember the 'Star System',?

"PC Plonker in school" is wating the Gold one! :)

9

Scott Webb.......,

09/06/2008 01:03:37
I think JFK said it best :)

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=1710662559138481080&hl=en
10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 09/06/2008 01:08:59

Its a Time 'Learn and Live' to be under complete Control from the Dictatorship, from when you are a 'Foetus'!

This IS,..'NEW SCOTLAND'

"Logans Run" Never had a look-in!
11

Willie Macleod,

Wick 09/06/2008 01:18:04
#14 Coroners verdict Suicide by his own hand
12

George F,

09/06/2008 01:26:31
#4 A Friend of Alternative Mighty Mario Voltaire, you wrote "When the grown-ups reading this tripe were at school, the kids feared the teachers.

You do-gooding pillocks promote rights-without-responsibility.

Give the little sh1tes six of the lash and watch behaviours improve".

I agree with you to an extent but seeing how the use of the belt was abolished in 1980, what do you suggest?

Seems to me that the teachers are more worried about being labeled a grass than maintaining order in the schools.
13

Willie Macleod,

Wick 09/06/2008 01:35:56
#19 Ford Transit Rise again Reincarnate yourself.

Hopefully it wont come to that Good luck Willie
14

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 09/06/2008 01:37:02

Ford Transit @#16,

I missed that one,

But you only have to look at the facts, that,..
'Complete Control' is now moving into our lifestyles!

'Complete Control' is what the Dictatorship wants!

From sex to conception!
From Childhood to Adults and more!

Don't do anything without our consent, and if you don't like it 'Boy'!

We Will 'Enforce It'!

I Say,,'Get Stu££ed'!

'LONG LIVE THE REVOLUTION'!

15

Willie Macleod,

Wick 09/06/2008 02:03:26
#27 Col Blimp Col. McPravda It opens to all and then closes Then opens up again. Strange Blog I dont know why.

I enjoy reading it when I can
16

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 09/06/2008 03:28:06
Teachers union. What a joke. Teachers may just be the most molly coddled group of losers going.

Really. What do they do. The motivated kids will do well enough without class room teachers in this day and age of the internet.

My guess is the teachers union are put out by having an other authority figure in their domain.

Teachers by and large have huge egos and most have only ever been in a school setting since starting going themselves at around 5.

Teachers are known to be emotional bullies..or so say mental health doctors.

Just an opinion, or two.
17

izzie,

dundee 09/06/2008 05:54:11
Teachers rate lower than traffic wardens on this thread. As I see it the role of the police in schools is not just to prevent crime but to provide reassurance and support. Surely anything that breaks the cycle of poverty and crime is worth it? By the way-NOTE THE TIME -I will be in school by 7 just behind the janitor who gets paid more than me in order to complete some of the mountains of paperwork generated by discipline referrals. I then will prepare for a full teaching day. I will work my lunch hour. I have also worried most of the night about my new Intermediate 1 class who should not be attempting post 16 education but feel too scared to leave school.
18

bring them on,

09/06/2008 05:58:07
More police are needed.
19

Mist001,

Marseille 09/06/2008 06:42:53
My partner is a teacher and you should see the hours she puts in compared to the UK. 7am to a minimum of 5:30pm before she can even think about leaving the school. She also has to do Saturday mornings.

When she was pregnant, she was assaulted by a pupil but she felt if she reported it to the police, it could ruin the pupils entire future, so she didn't go ahead with it.

So it happens here in France too, although they don't have police at the schools.

Then you look at America where they have metal detectors for the pupils to walk through to make sure they're not carrying Saturday Night Specials.

I think that teaching nowadays is more than an ideal than a career. Who really needs the hassle?

Michael.
20

bring them on,

09/06/2008 06:54:47
There are not enough teachers these days who can play netball
21

john z,

edinburgh 09/06/2008 07:41:41
Of course it teachers were actually allowed to discipline kids, we wouldn't need police in schools. I'm just not sure having police in schools is good long term - maybe for short periods, but actually permanent with a hook up to the police computer?

No, this is an easy 'fix'. It makes councils and police seem like they are doing something, and parents are 'duped' into thinking it reduces crime. All it does is move crime elsewhere.

Stick a policeman permanently outside a bank and it won't get robbed. But all the others in town certainly will.

Next we'll have school kids phone tapping and bugging in the playground. My god...what kind of society are we creating?
22

ianmcg,

Cullinan 09/06/2008 07:49:54
Bring back the tawse! end of problem!
23

bring them on,

09/06/2008 07:57:30
Also, teachers don't have good names anymore.

In my days it was Wee Tam, Willie Wilson, Axe Heid, Mr Shatwell.

There is the heart of the problem
24

morris,

edinburgh 09/06/2008 08:03:18
35

I think common sense would dictate that teachers are given the powers they NEED/desire to "police"their schools themselves including punishment,and the current sytem of the Headmaster decides what if any further or external actions should be applied,would appear to be sensible. If we are holding him accountable then it seems reasonable that we should listen to what he wants and more importantly DOES NOT WANT!

In my experience the EIS has rarely asked for anything without good reason,and they are the professionals .If they require a police presence it should be as and when determined by the Head.

They do employ a kind of on campus school police on some USA premises as I understand it,but these are more akin to a uniformed security guard with the same rights as any individual has.Again I doubt we want this.I have heard the expression "qualified security guard" in various US Tv series,but it seems to me the qualification is that you know how to bleed if someone hits you!
Personally I prefer to listen to the teachers who should be in a better position to judge what is appropriate and where and when,and one thing that I am sure of is ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL!

We all claim to know whats best,but the fact that we all do it, tells me that the teachers must be sick of hearing parents views of how they should do their job,when half of the parents cant read and write!You would get more sense out of the kids!
25

Mist001,

Marseille 09/06/2008 08:06:21
The last time I got the belt was when I was about 14, in the English class. We were reading passages from 'The Go-Between' which I still think is an incredibly boring book but anyway being the pratt I was at the time, I started making snoring noises, so got called out to the front of the classroom and made to stand there until just before the end of the lesson then my teacher, who was actually a very decent man, gave me three lashes of the belt, you know the story, left hand over right hand, then swap.

My rather long winded point is that the belt wasn't all that painful. What was more painful was the shame and embarrassment of having to walk back to my desk, trying to look brave but just wanting to hide and cry and being unable to do so.

I have absolutely no doubt the belt could be abused by cruel teachers, but I never experienced that so without sounding like an old fogey, I also agree that the belt should be brought back.

Train the teachers how to use it, have an independent witness to observe it (cos the wee gits in the classroom would grass their teacher up as soon as they look at them nowadays!)

I agree with #36.

Michael.
26

bring them on,

09/06/2008 08:13:27
Lashes on the back may be more effective.

Holding two buckets of water for a few hours.

Standing on one leg.

There are various options that should all be given serious consideration
27

Iain's,

Barcelona 09/06/2008 08:17:02
So I suppose that the polis will be arresting children for littering in school, fighting in the playground and so on.

No wonder the United Nations and now the Children's Commissioner have said that the UK treats its children worse than any other of the world's richer nations.

The polis should be walking the streets, not criminalising children.

I'm glad I chose to live here where children are still allowed to be children.
28

Linda,

Edinburgh 09/06/2008 08:29:23
Another potty idea from EIS.
Most teachers do a great job but EIS has been a disaster.

1 Scrapping of belt as ultimate deterrent
2. stopping teachers taking sports clubs outside school hours.
3. Preventing the sacking of incompetent teachers.

Also proposed strike action is misguided.
Local authorities have asked schools to make 1.5% to 2% efficiency savings (just like everyone else) and head teachers have discretion on how this should be done therefore no reason this should come from front line services when like other areas there is a lot of money wasted on unnecessary items/projects.
29

bring them on,

09/06/2008 08:32:05
The Scottish polis all have a kip in their cars most of the day.

30

Mist001,

Marseille 09/06/2008 08:36:51
I have an off topic question: Why do so many posts get removed from here, the EN site and SOS?

I've never seen anything particularly offensive here and the moderator (if it's not a bot) is removing posts without giving a reason.

It doesn't really inspire confidence in commenting.

This'll probably get removed now for questioning their reasoning!

Michael.
31

bring them on,

09/06/2008 08:41:27
#44

Breaks the boredom between eating his McDonalds morning set (diet coke), and reading the Sun.
32

Mist001,

Marseille 09/06/2008 09:03:05
I think it's a bot which scans the posts automatically and is programmed to remove words which contain certain words of the choosing of the programmer.

I'm going to ask around and see if this happens with other Johnstone Press publications because I don't think they'd be willing to pay someone a salary to go through all their sites and deem what is offensive.

It would be cheaper and easier to install a program.

Michael.
33

Mist001,

Marseille 09/06/2008 09:04:52
"is programmed to remove words which contain certain words"

Sorry, that should be 'is programmed to remove posts.'

Michael.
34

McMadman,

Edinburgh 09/06/2008 09:11:54
# 31 izzie,dundee 09/06/2008 05:54:11

"By the way-NOTE THE TIME - I will be in school by 7 just behind the janitor who gets paid more than me in order to complete some of the mountains of paperwork generated by discipline referrals. I then will prepare for a full teaching day. I will work my lunch hour."

Diddums. You're not the only one working stupidly long hours for nothing. I'd happily swap you and have half the year off. Perhaps if teachers could manage discipline effectively in the first place you'd not be choked up doing the disciplinary paperwork. And a full teaching day ? How come kids are running wild from Friday lunchtime then ? Not what I call a full day.

35

Alan B,

09/06/2008 09:40:09
It is worrying how immature
"Helen Connor, vice-president of the union"
seems to be. She talks about teachers being called grasses. Is she real. She is meant to be an adult with a position of responsibility.

What message is she sending out. Teachers say that to help the police investigating criminal activity is wrong. Does this person have any sense of social responsibility or a sense of right and wrong. Quite simply she should be sacked immmediately and any decent teacher should condemn her remarks.

"Teachers backed a motion banning officers in schools from disciplining children or charging them with crimes."

I can understand that teachers do not feel police presence in schools is a good way forward, but if they are there why would they support the above motion. It is clearly stupid. Say a pupil has a knife and slashes another pupil. Teachers are saying that is ok and the police should not be involved. They really are idiots.
36

Mcsnagpile,

09/06/2008 09:52:45
Many years ago in Switzerland there was a mechanical woman—the arms were outstretched. When a child offender was placed in front of the woman the machine closed its arms and squashed the child. When the arms opened again a trap door sprung open and the body fell into a mesh of gears under a running river. The gears ground up the body into small pieces and the river washed it down stream as food for the fishes.
I think the statue fell into disuse due to lack of children offenders.
37

Miss H,

09/06/2008 09:54:15
There is a community officer based in my daughter's school. I think it is a great thing. Can't speak for parents in other schools of course but I do not recognise what Helen Connor is talking about.

If pupils know of drug dealing or shops selling to under-age drinkers etc I want them to be able to grass up whoever is doing it!

It wasn't that long ago that kids were being sold heroin from ice cream vans stationed outside schools. It was information provided by pupils that exposed that. Teachers should not have a problem assisting the police when it comes to these kinds of matters. I genuinely do not understand the EIS position on this.
38

Teofilio Cubillas,

09/06/2008 09:59:00
#49 spot on.

Just by using the word, 'grass' tells you all you need to know about this half wit. No doubt a member of the University Socialist Workers party and now creeping up the union hierarchy. These are the same people who object to the armed forces coming in to schools and offering their otherwise dead-end pupils an opportunity to learn a trade and some personal discipline. But no, for the sake of political expediency, she'd rather they spent a life mumping welfare as good socialists should.
39

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 09/06/2008 10:02:57
The idea of having police in schools is absolutely rediculous.

It is about time that we ditched this stupid pink and fluffy approach to everything and returned to the old ways of doing things.

Before the stupid politically correct brigade got a platform (as opposed to being laughed at), the system worked. Most kids had respect for teachers and there were ways and means of dealing with trouble makers that had effect.

If the police were ever in a school it was to educate the kids about road safety.
40

Unimpressed one,

09/06/2008 10:20:51
The EIS - a bunch of socialist bar stewards who have probably done more to damage educational standards in this country than all the rest combined. As long as parents are obliged by law to educate their children, the educational authorities have a duty of care and safety. The EIS were instrumental in getting rid of corporal punishment in schools - the start of the rot. Now they want to remove police security at a time when school violence and particularly knife crime, is out of control. Time that parents everywhere tell the EIS what they think of this piece of nonsense!
41

Miss H,

09/06/2008 10:21:35
53 That’s rubbish.

Children were not targeted by drug dealers and other criminal elements in the past the way that they are now. It is the police’s job to deal with that – not the teacher's job.
42

The_Doctor,

The real world 09/06/2008 10:21:46
Hate to rain on everyone's parade, but has anyone actually read the Motion that the EIS passed? I have. It doesn't actually call for the removal of police from schools at all. Helen Connor's comments, made in a personal capacity, form no part of the Motion adopted.

For anyone who actually wants to read the Motion, untainted by media misinformation, here it is:

58. North Lanarkshire Local Association
“That this AGM instruct Council to:
(i) investigate and report on the appointment procedures, duties and
responsibilities of designated police officers in educational
establishments.
(ii) construct a draft protocol which ensures that appropriate duties and
areas of involvement are agreed at the LNCT prior to the deployment
of a police officer.”

- So no mention of "banning" police from campuses at all then. Just a call for a "protocol" and discussion before the police are deployed.

But, of course, reporting that wouldn't give juicy headlines, would it?
43

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

09/06/2008 10:26:03
A school is an artificially created environment supposedly with the purpose of educating children...huge amounts of children attend this environment and this in itself creates its own problems...children can be quite lawless and the laws of the 'school' are weak...punishment is little deterrent and inadequate when carried out...children suffer because of this, they suffer bullying, they can be turned into bullies...teachers can actually be afraid of children and crimes normally associated with the external world are carried on within the 'school' premises...theft...sexual assault...racism...the selling and using of drugs...weapons are routinely brought into the 'school'

If this were a festival it would be hoaching with police......teachers cannot police school premises...if there are no officers present then a seperate body with similar police powers should be doing the job...this is the 21st century and crime is taking over...schools are not safe places for children....or teachers....
44

heidbanger,

Edinburgh 09/06/2008 10:36:39
What a surprise petty crime drops by 14% in areas where it is known there is a visible Police presence.

I wonder if the Police will now see if it works in other areas as well?
45

boudica,

Glasgow 09/06/2008 10:44:24
I also think this is a great idea and will help kids feel more secure and safe ..and I hope that it will also cut down on the bullies as most schools fail to deal with this and always seem to favour the bully and not the victim ..I dont see Teachers shouting about that ..No they just ignore the Victims plea`s for help ..So Great idea ..amd may it be come common practise ..
46

boudica,

09/06/2008 10:49:25
"They were looking for intelligence gathering, they wanted staff in school to tell them about what the young people were doing. That's not why I came into teaching. I did not think I would ever see, in Scotland, police officers in schools."..
So Ms Connor would rather cover up if a child is involved in any criminal activities ?
47

paul the binman,

09/06/2008 11:15:49
Hving had my son sent home from school for a whole week due to the fact that he was bullied,yes he was the victim,and the bullie was allowed to stay at school.I for one am now glad that his school has a police officer in attendance.The PC rubbish coming from the trendy teachers we have now is part of the problem."lets worry about the welfare of the bullie"how is that going to help the system improve when we see a lack of punishment.
48

Mist001,

Marseille 09/06/2008 11:17:59
I read the Herald, but I don't post comments on it so I didn't know if it was the same or not.

Nice job if you can get it, though! Sitting at a monitor, editing things which you deem unsuitable. They must be pretty fat, though.

Oops! There goes another comment!

Michael.
49

bring them on,

09/06/2008 11:33:03
Why don't teachers wear teachers hats anymore?

They made them look smart and disciplined.

Standards are dropping.
50

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 09/06/2008 11:48:13
#66:

By "teachers' hats" I take it you mean mortar boards.
51

Grambo,

09/06/2008 11:58:54
hehehehhehe i am laffing about this
52

bring them on,

09/06/2008 12:07:22
The old mortar boards, and cloaks were an integral part of the grumpy Scottish teacher.

I fear that has been lost, and replaced by plimsolls and V-neck sweaters.
53

bring them on,

09/06/2008 12:14:30
#68

There was nothing wrong with the dunce cap.

It was inexpensive and highly effective.
54

Logie Almond,

09/06/2008 12:20:43
The Trotskyist "rank and file" faction in the EIS is obviously flexing its muscles again with this piece of silliness.
55

bring them on,

09/06/2008 12:28:28
I my school days a "teachers' strike" had a very different meaning
56

kimba,

09/06/2008 12:37:42
Jeez,scottish schools must be bad,at least we don't have that south of the border!
57

McMadman,

Edinburgh 09/06/2008 12:53:00
# 74,

It's not the only thing you won't have south of the border come independence. How are you going to manage without our oil then ?

SAOR ALBA.
58

bring them on,

09/06/2008 13:05:20
What is today's oil price?
59

kimba,

09/06/2008 13:10:40
75. Sorry to have to burst your bubble,but 90% of Englands oil comes from Norway!

DU ET MON DROITE
60

jkbritt,

Pantego 09/06/2008 13:18:16
In Pantego, NC, USA, we have had police in the schools for years. I does deter campus wrongdoings. Schools are a reflection of our society, and our society has gotten worse, therefore the schools are worse. Also, we cannot strike/touch a student (paddle) anymore. That is considered child abuse/assault now. So, how do you remove a student who is out of control? The campus police is there to help you maintain discipline. If the student cannot behave, then he is escorted out by the campus police. Also, the sale of drugs on campus has decreased markedly since the campus police program began. The campus policeman will bring his cohort along with his drug sniffing dog to school on random days and check the lockers and vehicles parked in the parking lot. Also, if a child has witnessed a crime, they can go to the policeman that they trust and tell him without fear. The child is considered a confidential informant and is not brought before the public.

The only ones who do not like the police in the schools are the drug pushers, bullies, and other malcontents. As an educator for 27 years, I really do not see any bad coming from the campus police. We have police in the streets, why not at school, where a lot of the teenage problems begin. Why not stop it in the bud?
61

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 09/06/2008 13:30:37
Helen Connor is an idiot. In the real world she would be fired. In New Labour Scotland she gets to spout off in the Scotsman.
Of course, everything is different when one of the Little Darlings smacks a teacher. Then there can't be enough cops in the schools.
62

JohnBowes,

09/06/2008 13:40:03
So, schools are part of the community?

Yes, so are community centres, churches, libraries, town halls bus stops and nigh EVERYWHERE. So why schools? Why put them in schools where we have a head master?

Teachers and heads and senior staff will and DO now look like severe grasses. AND brown noses to plod.

So we have cops in the schools and house getting broke into out side it and rug dealing and so on.

The status of both cops and teachers could not be lower.

Teachers who cannot control kids should be sacked. That is certainly TRUE of head teachers.

Does the head need a police man now? WHAT do these duffers look like? Yes, wee middle class wallies. And grasses at that. Decent teachers will NOT now trust talking to senior staff... its the senior staff who will be grassing to plod. They look vomit inducing in the extreme.


63

JohnBowes,

09/06/2008 13:41:27
Miss H says children should act as grasses. Where I come from grasses end up in a very severe mess - to put it mildly.
64

bring them on,

09/06/2008 13:44:58
#81

With your lawn mower?
65

McMadman,

Edinburgh 09/06/2008 13:49:42
# 77 kimba,09/06/2008 13:10:40

"75. Sorry to have to burst your bubble,but 90% of Englands oil comes from Norway!

DU ET MON DROITE"

Do you have some evidence of that ? I rather doubt it, but if (amazingly) for once you are not only right but post some evidence to prove it, fair play. In the unlikely event you are correct, I take it then that as Scottish oil is so irrelevant to England, you would be perfectly happy for us to have all of the revenue generated by it ?

No ? Thought not.

BTW, it's "Dieu et mon droite" not "Du."
66

BOIDA,

The East 09/06/2008 13:54:11
Rods have been spared, children have been spoiled. The solution stares every one of us in the face, ye the nation appears to be in the grip of an epidemic of selective blindness. Comrades of the EIS, attempt to remove your scarlet-tinted spectacles. You might be amazed at the true hues of reality...
67

Miss H,

09/06/2008 14:02:17
What a load of nonsense some of you are talking. In my view 99% of parents will support having a community officer based on campus in secondary schools - in every secondary school in fact.

That is not because the belt has been abolished or because they want their kids to become copper's narks. It is because they are aware of the dangers that youngsters face these days, particularly of drugs/alcohol being pushed at their kids.

It doesn't just happen in deprived areas, it happens everywhere and the more agencies like the police and education can work together with parents to stop it the better.

I am grateful to the poster at 56 who told us what the EIS motion actually said, pointing out that they are not calling for a ban on police in schools. That comes as something of a relief to me.
68

,

09/06/2008 14:23:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
69

ARP,

Scotland 09/06/2008 14:28:08
What Ms Conner calls a 'grass' is someone who respects the law and who aims to assist its enforcement in whatever way possible.

Is she really inciting teachers to obstruct the police in the course of their duty? If so, that tells us a lot about the teaching profession and the attitudes that they impart to their pupils. And where to look for the source of so many pupils' disrespect for the law and those who enforce it!
70

,

09/06/2008 14:32:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
71

ColinMz,

Edinburgh 09/06/2008 14:42:35
Logie Almond #72 - well said. If the police withdraw can the EIS ensure the safety of the teachers and the innocent students? The EIS should do us a favour and dissolve itself.
72

bring them on,

09/06/2008 17:02:29
Is this the OF thread?
73

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 09/06/2008 17:46:35
#77 you referred to housebreakings and 'rug' dealing outside schools - should there be a preventative Police presence at General George then?

;-)
74

Haggis MacBagpipes,

Central Canada - ex Perth & Glesca' 09/06/2008 18:35:26
"Spare the Rod and spoil the child."
Cheers,
Haggis MacBagpipes™©
75

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

09/06/2008 19:12:19
It is only a matter of time before the cult of Columbine comes to a classroom near you....

...'Classroom Avengers' could be avoided if bullying were seriously addressed....
76

Kitti Kat,

09/06/2008 19:27:12
Having police in schools can be good and bad. If the school has violent, disruptive kids who threaten and in some cases, beat the heck out of teachers and students, then the school needs police presense that has the rules spelled ouit as to what power they have. No teacher or student should be used as an informant to police. In the city of Philadelphia ( the "city of brotherly love" (we call it the city of brotherly shove but that's another story) police are a welcome addition as teachers have been almost killed bystudents.
THe schools should be evaluated to see how police would be a benefit and not a threat. Something has to be done to contain the violent stukdents .
77

Mary Bell,

09/06/2008 21:11:01
I feel very proud of these brave teachers, for standing up for the rights of children and all.

This 'take-over' of the basic culture did not start just with this administration. It takes a lot of time and money to infiltrate a good people.

In the USA, we get some results from bombarding our government repsentatives with our opinions... as respectfully as possible, or circulating petitions (sometimes on-line).

Our teachers, and parents, did not stood up to the push of the police state into the schools, which has occured slowly, over 35(ish) years. At first, uniformed police persons were permitted to address whole populations of primary schools with their inappropriate information about drugs. Children exposed to this get the idea that drugs are an expected part of the environment.

The first groups of children who were introduced to this training have grown up to be 90% drug users of various degrees. Now the school children in the USA are exposed to routine sweeps through the halls and classrooms of vicious dogs supervised by a new business class of 'private' police contractors.

Let me encourage you to FIGHT this and other 'New World (dis)Order' changes.

Look behind the curtain, and follow the money to dig out root of this invasion.

Learn about the 'Bilderberg' Group (the new international world government), and Google-up the history (time line) of the Rothschild family, by Smith.

I also recommend the 3 1/2 hour online documentary called 'The Money Makers'. Make popcorn, and enjoy learning (if you can get the genetically UN-modified corn).

Good Luck, good Scotts!
78

Mary Bell,

09/06/2008 21:20:21
A proven technique for dealing with mis-behavior at the primary school level is this:

If the child is throwing rocks on the play-ground, the child can be isolated in the coat closet for a short period of time. If he/she throws rocks again, the parent is called to come immediatly to the school to collect the child. The child is suspended from attendance for 3 days.

Since this can be a serious disruption to the parents scheduel, when the child returns, they will, usually, be diciplined.

The parents must feel a sense of mutual respect with the teacers, and that they are a team for the benefit of the child. The school must always encourage and welcome parents to visit at will.
79

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 09/06/2008 22:14:59
This could be the way forward, you know. Progression rather than regression.

Let teachers teach. Let police police. Wow, what a novel idea.

Could be a new form of deterrent based on the old community policeman. So why stop at schools?
80

PointOf View,

Falkirk / Edinburgh 09/06/2008 22:56:55
28 izzie + 23 Charles Linskaill
I was not aware classroom assistants did all that work nor had all that worry. My sisters a teacher and thinks if you work for that pay and long hours you seriously need to think about working for another local authority and school.

On another note, I’m confused? How by having a police presence in schools is it going to break the cycle of poverty and crime! In the main governments are largely responsible for poverty thus ensure the continuation of a ready low paid workforce, to do the monotonous jobs. I mean who else would do them,,, you? In terms of a police presence in schools I’m in agreement with Charles Linskaill. Truth is it’s about conditioning children to accept totalism, dictatorship and the Police state. Be scared, very very scared. Wake up people!!!
81

Ian from Gala,

Galashiels 09/06/2008 23:00:49
Ms Connor is right out of order. As a responsible parent, I expect teachers to support anything that will encourage responsible behaviour in young people. If a young person behaves in such a way that it damages the learning of other pupils, I expect teachers to act. Yet I do not think that teachers are trained or equipped to deal with the more serious offences that occur in and around schools or in the homes of pupils - which can affect their own and their peers' education. I do not condone any teacher who neglects an opportunity to report criminality and this is not "grassing" - this is an important duty they owe to society and helps to protect vulnerable adults and children. If community police based in schools help to control criminality and encourage respect and for the law, and the evidence supports this, then these trials should be extended and evaluated with parental input.
82

PointOf View,

Falkir / Edinburgh 09/06/2008 23:08:30
75 jkbritt,Pantego
Yes we here in the UK watch how almost on a weekly basis, how well your school policing strategy works, as they stretcher out young people with gunshot / knife wounds to a number of waiting ambulances.
Sorry dont think we really want to go there.
83

Diggins,

09/06/2008 23:25:57
bring them on

You are so right.

In the good old days we had teachers with cloaks, mortar boards, mean streaks and Proper Monikers.

In the Science dept there was....Doc Beaker,JAB and the fearsome Dan Troop(Fleming) who was as quick and as deadly with the Tawse as his US Marshal lookalike namesake was with his six shooter.

There was a Nazi Tech Drawing teacher who was in charge of the Refectory who picked on shy kids, kids with stutters or dirty fingernails and forced them to say grace followed by a public humiliation.

We had a Dottie Williams, a Stark Raving Loony and Mad Mckay.

The ugliest Woman in the world, who compensated for this by riding a motorbike and competing in radio and TV quiz shows.

"Rossie" Cassalls, "Virginia" Wade and "Sue" Barker were all rubbish at tennis.

And the Rector was called "Crazylegs" Crann.

With snatch squads to regularly deal out punishment beatings to the riff-raff that arrived when the School became comprehensive.

There was no need for Coppers.
84

bring them on,

09/06/2008 23:52:38
More grumpy teachers, with batman cloaks, decent hats... and names, and you would find that things would be a lot different

Ten laps round the track, in the rain, in your underwear, and you won't do that again laddie...

Now that was education
85

Diggins,

10/06/2008 00:21:36
#99 bring them on

D I S I P L I N E , R E S P E C T and F E A R !

That's what todays youngsters need.

That Dan Troop character could inflict so much pain with one stroke of his belt, that there was no need for him to dish it out in four's.

But he did it anyway. It was his ambition to give somebody six but few remained on their feet after three and no-one after four.

It caused him great anguish that he was unable to belt pupils more often than he did but nobody ever spoke out of turn twice in his class and any who witnessed the consequences of speaking without permission or failing to pay attention were model pupils for the whole six years or ditched chemistry as soon as possible.

He eventually took to sub-contracting his services as an executioner to punier teachers, that cheered him up a bit.

86

Colac,

Brisbane 10/06/2008 00:38:10
I was educated at Tynecastle school and also in London schools, i got caned in London and strapped in Edinburgh, I never ever went back for a second helping, bleeding hearts and doooo gooders are responsible for the lack of discipline in the schools, Also bring back National Service,it never fails to educate recalcitrants that you can't beat the system!!
87

Davidson,

Hamilton 10/06/2008 07:52:04
Do Scottish teachers think that police officers are aliens intent on doing harm to people? Are they not, like teachers, public servants who want to create a better society? Increasing crime is a major problem and clearly nothing else is working to quell it. Teachers tend to be people who think that they have or should have "the answers" so it must be threatening that another agency could do a better job at disciplining 'their'pupils. And why should teachers want to protect the guilty; what are they trying to prove, what values are they projecting? Perhaps they should concentrate on getting people to accept responsibilty for their own actions.
88

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

10/06/2008 10:55:47