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Row over £3m tax bill from transfer of police IT services



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Published Date: 15 August 2008
By Michael Howie
A SCOTTISH Government plan to avoid a £3 million VAT bill during the transfer of police services to a controversial national body was branded "fundamentally undemocratic" by councillors yesterday.
Ministerial plans to transfer police information and communications technology facilities from the country's eight forces to the Scottish Police Services Authority (SPSA) had suffered an embarrassing setback when the government discovered the nation
al body would be liable for the multi-million-pound tax bill.

Civil servants have now proposed keeping the services under police-force ownership, and instead making the SPSA "agents", who will be given a free rein to purchase new systems and issue contracts.

But yesterday members of Strathclyde's police board – whose support is needed to push through the plan – railed against the proposal, saying they will refuse to become "rubber-stamps" for an outside national agency.

Chris Mason, a local councillor, said: "If the property is in our ownership, we are politically accountable for what is done.

"But the people who are actually doing this are accountable to the SPSA board. This is fundamentally undemocratic."

A Scottish Government spokesman said: "These proposals would save the Scottish Police Service more than £3 million a year in VAT.

"We will continue to discuss them with Scotland's police authorities with a view to gaining their support."



The full article contains 226 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 15 August 2008 12:23 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Law and Order
 
1

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 15/08/2008 01:03:48
So our Labour councillor would rather pay more tax than find a legal away to avoid that problem. Would it not make more sense to spend the money on vulnerable two year olds or apprentices?

Labour has truly lost the plot.
2

Guga II,

Rockall 15/08/2008 01:41:19
Strathclyde Police Board is obviously run by the West Coast Labour Mafia. They'd rather cut their own throats than let the Scottish government get away without handing even more of the taxpayer's money over to Maggie Broon.
3

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 15/08/2008 01:44:02
Labour councils would rather pay more tax as long as it goes to Westminster.

The entire labour party is built on dodgy deals.

Not in Scotlands interest , but when did that ever bother labour ?
4

,

15/08/2008 01:57:21
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5

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 07:47:29
Let's remember that the SPSA was created by the Labour/LibDem Scottish Executive (on 1st Jan 2007) who failed to spot the problem with VAT. In fact when it was pointed out they claimed that the savings would be large enough to male the VAT cost insignificant ?
6

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 08:31:38
It is indefensible that government should be practising tax avoidance. What a ridiculous approach.
7

Linda,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 08:43:16
Congratulations to SNP government for trying to save money. S
8

,

15/08/2008 08:55:38
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9

Miss H,

15/08/2008 09:21:34
6 Stupid comment. It was acknowledged that it was an error by the previous Exec that the VAT had to be paid in the first place. The £3million if it has to be paid will come from the police budget.
10

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 09:29:44
#9 Arrogant response. Tax avoidance by government is what's stupid. And I see that "blame the last lot" is still the name of the game for the SNP. What a bunch of children.
11

bill-alba,

Fife 15/08/2008 09:41:59
So Duncan "blame the last lot" tell me where the blame should sit then. Was it not the last coalition that formed the spsa then? Do you have a comment on the Scottish Government having to use tax avoidance because of how the spsa was set up?? Your childish remarks as as usual straight out of the britnat handbook.
12

Alan B,

15/08/2008 09:50:19
#Duncan in Edinburgh

The whole problem is the fundamental structure in the first place. If scotland had fiscal autonomy the whole issue would disappear as the scottish government would be gaining from any vat paid. Just another reason for scotland raising and spending its own taxes.

I would also say to critise Miss H for arrogance reading your reply in #10 which personifies arrogance aswell as being child like. While throwing insults at that poster you fail to justify your remarks. Are you rejecting her post that the previous government made the decision that would have made the VAT liable. Something like that is either fact or not. The fact the you throw insults rather than put some evidence that it is not true say more than anything.

As for complaining about the snp government blaming labour. Have you not heard labour for years and years blaming the tories. We still get the odd labour mp blaming the tories for things in the uk a decade later.

"Tax avoidance by government is what's stupid"
Why? Realistically a regional government has to spend its allocated money cost effectively. That like any other organisation means tax management. It would be completely irresponsible for an organisation to omit tax cost consideration when making organisational changes. There is a big difference from illegal evasion and sensible tax management to ensure you spend your limited pot of money effectively.
13

,

15/08/2008 10:31:13
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14

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 10:36:37
#12 Of course, like every other problem, your answer to this one is independence. Utterly typical of the single-issue-pressure-group-dressed-as-a-political-party that the SNP is.

I find it deeply ironic that it is SNP supporters who moan most frequently about the "Scottish cringe", when it is your stock-in-trade to blame the UK for every single thing you see wrong in Scotland.

The SNP is the devolved government of Scotland. They need to perform in that role. Instead they spend every waking hour twisting issue after issue into levers towards independence.

I weep for our political system, ridden with simplistic nationalism and smug disinformation.
15

Scottish 'N British,

15/08/2008 10:57:11
"fundamentally undemocratic"
"embarrassing setback"

The object of the exercise is to avoid paying money Swinney clearly doesn't have. On policy issues, it's empty the prisons, we don't have the money to build more.

Just another day in SNP la-la land.

BTW, when's the announcement for the building of the Forth Road Bridge? What about dualling the A9?

Why doesn't he just raid his much-vaunted Scottish Futures Trust to pay the bills?


16

Scottish 'N British,

15/08/2008 10:58:59
13

Paranoid?

Wha, me?
17

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 11:06:18
"Duncan in Edinburgh" Blame the previous executive ?
Why not ? They introduced the legislation to set up the SPSA in 2000 or thereabouts and took six years to get the agency up and running. In all that time none of them realised that VAT would have to be paid.
The SNP are doing their best to try and make the SPSA work, let's hope that they manage to avoid the totally unneccessary payment of VAT to the London Government.
18

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 11:15:45
#17 The SNP are in government. Instead of picking fights with Westminster they need to be working for the good of all of the Scottish people - including the majority who do not consider independence to be a good idea.
19

Nikostratos,

15/08/2008 11:24:39
#9 MISS H

"The £3million if (if)it has to be paid will come from the police budget."

So if the attempt to avoid paying this legal and due tax fails then the snp Government will follow the proper course and pay up.

I know you and all the other 'Nationalist' extremists' and i use the term advisedly. would claim this was an innocent ploy to save taxpayers money. But the reality is this is just a way to avoid paying legal and due tax and does send out the wrong signal to the tax paying public.

What will be the snp position to any people who attempt to avoid paying any L.I.T tax that may occur in the future?.

No this is a very immoral and strays near to the boundary of illegality and should be condemned as i am sure it would be voraciously from the snp if a labour led Government behaved in the same manner.
20

"Hoots" Fandango,

15/08/2008 11:33:01
Duncan

"It is indefensible that government should be practising tax avoidance."

I would say that it would be indefensible if the government should be practising tax EVASION.

As you are no doubt aware, tax avoidance is perfectly legal. Tax EVASION however, is illegal.
21

Miss H,

15/08/2008 11:37:36
Duncan. The Police, Public Order and Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill which set up the SPSA was introduced in 2005 and received royal assent in 2006.

The whole point of the SPSA was to make efficiencies - but it now looks as though it will cost the taxpayer more than before because it is not VAT exempt.

It is a fact that the SNP was not in Government when these decisions were made.

They are trying to clear up the mess.
22

Miss H,

15/08/2008 11:44:36
19 Niko - you would rather send £3million to the Treasury than spend it on policing.

Apart from Duncan you could not find one single other taxpayer in Scotland who would agree with you.

(Though I am sure that you and Duncan don't actually think that is sensible either - but such is your obsession with the SNP that you would never admit it)
23

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 11:45:02
#20 I'm fully aware of the distinction between tax avoidance and tax evasion, and I never claimed the government were acting illegally. Tax avoidance is, while legal, an entirely inappropriate thing for a government to indulge in.

I know far too many tax avoiders - often the very rich who would prefer to pay accountants to minimise their tax than to contribute fairly and honestly to the running of the country. I have no respect for any of them, and I mirror that lack of respect on anyone else who practices tax avoidance.
24

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 11:48:46
#22 Those who introduced the policy of tax avoidance were wrong, those who continue to pursue such a policy are wrong. It's a question of decency in public policy. How can we expect to improve tax revenues for the general good when the government itself is indulging in tax avoidance?

And would you please stop blaming the last government for the policies of the present one. The SNP had every opportunity to change the policy if they disagreed with it. They didn't do so.
25

Miss H,

15/08/2008 11:53:29
24 Duncan.

This is how opposition politicians reacted when the story first emerged:http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1844623.0.0.php?act=complaint&cid=789319

Bill Aitken, the Tory justice spokesman, said: "I find this both incredible and disturbing. Surely someone would have had the nous to check the position long before now. The impact on the capital budget will obviously be severe and there could also be revenue consequences.Clearly they need to make appropriate applications to the Treasury for exemption or the authorities' raison d'etre of making savings is simply blown out of the water."

Pauline McNeill, Labour's justice spokeswoman, said: "It seems to me that this is so crucial to the operation of the SPSA that it should have been resolved before it was set up. We should not be finding this out now."

Margaret Smith, the Lib- Dem justice spokeswoman, said: "Centralised procurement for police forces was a sensible course of action, designed to save individual police forces time and money. The individual forces are VAT exempt, so it's common sense that the body now procuring resources for the forces should also be VAT exempt. The Scottish Government must make representations to the Westminster Government to resolve this situation."

Will you now condemn them please in exactly the same terms as you have codemned the SNP?

26

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 12:04:22
#25 Ha! No I won't, because the SNP is IN GOVERNMENT, and therefore is responsible for setting policy and taking action. Opposition politicians have the job of picking holes in government policy. As I have mentioned before, the SNP has found it extremely difficult to adapt from their oppositional role to their governmental one. They need to grow up.

What I will do is reiterate what I said in #24: Those who introduced the policy of tax avoidance were wrong, those who continue to pursue such a policy are wrong. It's a question of decency in public policy.

27

,

15/08/2008 12:10:48
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28

,

15/08/2008 12:13:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
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29

,

15/08/2008 12:14:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
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30

Miss H,

15/08/2008 12:16:47
26 Another stupid comment. No government starts with a blank slate - they are responsible for progressing the matters started by their predecessors.

The solution to the situation is clearly that Westminster should be flexible about VAT exemption. But they are not prepared to be flexible so an alternative has to be found.

The choice seems to be to lose £3 million a year from police budgets, scrap the SPSA or to find a way of saving the money and keeping the SPSA which is what the Government is trying to do.

Only an idiot would argue against that Duncan.
31

,

15/08/2008 12:20:11
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32

Nikostratos,

15/08/2008 12:22:24
#22 Miss H

No i would rather the elected Government was transparent and honest and did not involve itself with dodgy accounting in the mistaken belief if it benefited the tax payer it is OK.

nu-labour used to behave in a similar way they say and look where they are now...........and justify it

road and good intentions etc leads that way...
33

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 12:23:49
#30 Oh for pity's sake stop it. They took the decision to pursue this, nobody else did. Just like they took the decision to stop the fuel subsidy to local bus companies, forcing prices up. This government needs to start taking responsibility for its own actions, and you need to wake up to the fact that you can no longer place the blame anywhere but on the heads of your own folk.
34

Miss H,

15/08/2008 12:29:30
32 You don't actually understand what the issue is here Nikostratos so your comments are meaningless.
35

Scottish 'N British,

15/08/2008 12:29:42
27,28,29,31

hehe

The ultimate irony.

Separatists quoting (other parties' manifesto promises) after 15 months of broken promises....

People in glass houses an aw that, big time...

"So many promises, so little time to break them"

lol
36

Scottish 'N British,

15/08/2008 12:34:04
smaller government
bonfire of the quangoes
2 hours of physical exercise from a qualified teacher
maximum 18 in P1-3
PPP/PFI out, SFT, in
£2,000 for first-time buyers
scrap student debt
fund universities properly

etc,etc.


hehe
37

Davie from Irvine,

Auld Irvine Toun Ayrshire coast 15/08/2008 12:41:07
Scottish N British @15 As regards to the dualing of the A9 and building the new Forth road bridge, a question you asked on a thread yesterday when you asked, Hello,, was answered, the funding for building roads is supposed to come from the road tax ( vehicle tax ) for which we are ripped of ( including the rest of the UK ) This is a London based tax which is not devolved to the Scottish Parlaiment, therfore funding for the much needed dualing of the A9 and the Forth road bridge should come from the road tax duety fund, there should not be tolls on any bridge in the UK.
38

Miss H,

15/08/2008 12:43:47
33 Duncan the SNP did not take a decision to pursue the setting up of the SPSA.

To quote from its website: ‘The SPSA was granted a Commencement Order by the Justice Minister bringing certain provisions of the 2006 Act into force on 1 January 2007. The effect of the Commencement Order was to bring SPSA and SCDEA into being as legal entities and to commence the provisions of the Act relating to appointments and employment.’

Effectively it came into being in April 2007 one month before the SNP were elected.
39

Arfur,

15/08/2008 13:02:16
I see Duncan from Edinburgh is making a idiot of himself again.

Here is a little idea Duncan - actually understand the topic before making a comment. You would look much less of a fool.

"Instead they spend every waking hour twisting issue after issue into levers towards independence" - really? well how did they find the time to arrange scrapping of tolls, reducing prescription charges, council tax freeze, business rates reduction...............the list goes on and on. Fool.

As for @17 "Instead of picking fights with Westminster they need to be working for the good of all of the Scottish people" - sorry Duncan but I was under the obviously bizarre thinking that £3m being spend in Scotland rather than going into the London coffers was for the good of the Scottish people.

40

"Hoots" Fandango,

15/08/2008 13:10:17
I think it's just dawned on Duncan that he's paying too much tax and he's miffed.

However this all pans out, tax avoidance is 100% legal.
Another phrase could be "tax planning."

Example: Giving money to charity to avoid paying some taxes seems to me to be legitimate.
41

"Hoots" Fandango,

15/08/2008 13:13:23
My #40 was not about "artificial" tax avoidance schemes.
42

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 13:13:57
#40 This is the attitude that riles me. How do you expect the country to operate if everyone avoids tax? Do you really think that paying towards the costs of running the country should be something you should be able to opt out of by clever dealing? What public services do you want cut - the NHS, schools, emergency services...?

I pay my fair share of tax and I believe everyone should.
43

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 13:16:06
#39 All the issues you mention have been used as levers towards independence. And you prove my point yet again by talking about VAT going into "London coffers". Where do you think the block grant comes from exactly? Here is a little idea Arfur - actually understand the topic before making a comment. You would look much less of a fool.
44

Miss H,

15/08/2008 13:18:44
42 Stupid comment number 3.

As Margaret Smith says the individual police forces are VAT exempt so it's common sense that the body now procuring resources for the forces should also be VAT exempt.

45

Davie from Irvine,

Auld Irvine Toun Ayrshire 15/08/2008 13:19:01
Duncan, as you want the Scottish government to hand back £3M to the treasury, money much needed to fund our police force, in defence of the union, is this your way of displaying the union benefit ? suppose hiring accountants is tax avoidence as they find legal ways of business and self employed paying less tax.
46

ThomasP,

15/08/2008 13:25:49
#42

You are abit of an idiot.

If the Government wants to aviod paying tax then what is wrong with that?

The Government receives the money from the taxpayer anyway and avoiding paying tax should not be a problem for the Treasury since the money will circulate.
47

"Hoots" Fandango,

15/08/2008 13:25:49
Duncan

I too pay my taxes. I don't evade taxes, but if I wish to give to a charity to reduce my tax band (legal avoidance), I don't see a problem. If I DON'T do this and pay full tax, I'll have less to give to the charity of my choice.

I think you should see a tax consultant soon.
48

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 13:31:50
#44, #46 You apparently failed to notice that my post at #42 was a response to #40 talking about personal taxation. I know I've got you all upset by not being madly in love with Saint Alex, but you do still need to read and understand my comments before jumping on them.
49

Davie from Irvine,

Aukd Irvine Toun Ayrshire 15/08/2008 13:35:14
I suggest that Duncan is having a laugh by winding us all up and keeping us going, eh Duncan ?
50

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 13:35:16
#47 Once more you go back to the question of legality - avoidance versus evasion - instead of addressing my point that public services need funding, and it is immoral that the wealthiest members of society contribute far less to the funding of government than the law says they should.
51

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 13:37:41
#49 Well, it's certainly been a while since I've had a good old-fashioned ding-dong on here. But my opposition to the SNP is not frivolous - it's deadly serious. I think they represent the biggest danger this country has faced in many years.
52

Miss H,

15/08/2008 13:38:26
48 Duncan in fact you have described the Scottish Government trying to avoid an annual £3 million VAT bill for the SPSA as indefensible, ridiculous, stupid, inappropriate and wrong.

53

ThomasP,

15/08/2008 13:38:56
#51

Because?
54

"Hoots" Fandango,

15/08/2008 13:41:32
Duncan.

"It is immoral that the wealthiest members of society contribute far less to the funding of government than the law says they should."

The law does NOT say that. If it were illegal to AVOID taxes, then more people should be in jail. You are getting hung up on this. I am talking about LEGAL tax avoidance. You are banging on about something else.
55

Nikostratos,

15/08/2008 13:51:30
#34 Miss H

Yes miss, sorry miss.
56

Davie from Irvine,

Auld Irvine Toun Ayrshire 15/08/2008 13:55:37
Duncan @49, it is your democratic right that you comment of your dislike of the SNP, however it is rather myphing that you are showing such opposition to the saving of £3M of our money ( ours meaning you included as a tax payer) as an atack on Nationalism, after all, Unionist or Nationalist, it is our money and im sure the vast majority of unionists also agree on that.
57

"Hoots" Fandango,

15/08/2008 14:05:38
Duncan wants us all to pay taxes so he can get his tram line.
58

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 14:08:49
#54 No, I am talking about legal tax avoidance too. It is the LAW that says that I must pay 20% of my earnings below 35k and 40% of my earnings above 35k.

However, if I earn 500k I might decide to live in Bermuda for 6 months and a day each year, and despite my money being earned in the UK, I wouldn't pay a penny of tax.

Or I might set up a trust or a private company to receive a proportion of my pay, which could then buy my house and rent it back to me at £1 a year.

Legal, yes; moral, no. Common? Absolutely.
59

"Hoots" Fandango,

15/08/2008 14:18:32
58

Hmm.... Tesco .....

60

Davie from Irvine,

Auld Irvine Ayrshire 15/08/2008 14:19:58
58 Duncan and the relation to the £3M is ?
61

Arfur,

15/08/2008 14:20:10
43 Duncan in Edinburgh - hahahahahahahahah )in a Brian Blessed style laugh. I LOOK THE FOOL?????????? You clearly have the intelligence of a biscuit.

"All the issues you mention have been used as levers towards independence" - every single one? So do you think that if the unlikely scenario of a No vote in 2010 happens, the SNP are going to say sod it, there's no point. bring everything back and lets raise the taxes? They are doing it all for the good of the Scottish people you imbecile.
62

"Hoots" Fandango,

15/08/2008 14:24:23
58

Regarding your "Bermuda" scenario, 6 months + 1 day is correct. In addition, you can't come back if you spend an average of 91 days over a period of 4 years.

I think you'd miss us all Duncs. Then again, an independent Scotland might change the rules just for you.

;-)
63

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 14:27:28
#61 A strange non-sequitor. Why would they reverse decisions in "the unlikely scenario of a No vote in 2010"?

Oh, and if you really think that there's going to be a vote on independence in 2010 you are more of an "imbecile" than you previously appeared.
64

Davie from Irvine,

Auld Irvine Burgh Toun Ayrshire 15/08/2008 14:44:57
Duncan, you seem to be ploughing a lone furrow on the £3M police VAT, i dont think it is unionist argument, just your self admitted dislike of the SNP government.
65

Davie from Irvine,

Auld Irvine Burgh Toun Ayrshire 15/08/2008 14:49:31
And if the story was SNP government to pay £3M vat on policy, you would be shouting waste of my tax money no doubt.
66

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 14:53:32
#64 I'm used ploughing a lonely furrow Davie.

If you read this comments thread from the top, you'll see that it opened with an entirely typical set of comments from SNP drones slagging off Labour. If I'm honest that's what spurred me into responding. I am heartily sick of the SNP's attitude towards government.

There comes a point when a party of government recognises that it must act in the best interests of the people, not in its own party interests. The SNP has never looked like approaching this point. It is a single issue pressure group dressed as a political party, and I am sick of waiting for everyone else to realise it.
67

Alan B,

15/08/2008 15:05:15
#14 Duncan in Edinburgh

I do not think you understood anything in my post as your reply misses about every point and turns to an absurd rant.

"your answer to this one is independence"
Where exactly did i mention independence. I did not. so as such it makes your post makes up some i did not say and then progress to try to slag that off.

What i said was fiscal autonomy? That is not independence. It is also a policy supported by some senior unionists. But do not let facts get in the way. People like Rumbles, David Davis (and i believe Munro)

"I weep for our political system, ridden with simplistic nationalism and smug disinformation"

Quite pathetic. So are we better with the mess that we have. And typical you simply cannot find good reasons for the union that you can articulate so come up with silly statements like above.
68

Alan B,

15/08/2008 15:07:19
#Duncan in Edinburgh

"Instead of picking fights with Westminster "

If you took your rose colored glass off you would see over the last year the majority of the fights have been created by the morally repulsive excuse the labour party have become.

69

Scottish 'N British,

15/08/2008 15:11:00
37

Aaah, that old chestnut, the road tax fund is getting the blame. Ach, well, it makes a change from Westminster.

Funny, but I don't recollect that excuse being used in the SNP manifesto.

Indeed, a deliberate commitment to dual the A9 was made. Not that this could ever stop Fergus Ewing's recent 'statement' downgrading this firm commitment to a long-term plan.

Yet another SNP 'downgrade'.

Shameful.
70

brownlie,

15/08/2008 15:11:57
58 Duncan

You've got to ask yourself which party or parties set up the tax regimes that enable the rich to retain a higher proportion of their wealth than the poor. I think you'll find it was successive UK Governments.

Take, for instance, the system that enables the very rich non-doms to pay £30,000 to avoid paying any more UK tax.
71

Alan B,

15/08/2008 15:12:15
#25 Miss H

Very good post
72

Alan B,

15/08/2008 15:15:26
#Miss H

"The individual forces are VAT exempt, so it's common sense that the body now procuring resources for the forces should also be VAT exempt. "

"The solution to the situation is clearly that Westminster should be flexible about VAT exemption. But they are not prepared to be flexible so an alternative has to be found. "

Is labour in Westminster picking fights with scotlands democractic choices again.
73

Scottish 'N British,

15/08/2008 15:17:43
68

Frae Lewis Chessmen to Libyan terrorists.

Scotland's interests? Aye, right. Mair like Salmond's interests.

Will Salmond's spooiling for a fight with the English ever end?

This tactic, employed to deflect attention from his featherweight government programme, is kidding no-one, except his paid lackeys and the fellow-travellers who sit like sycophants at his feet waiting for scraps from his table.

74

brownlie,

15/08/2008 15:25:04
73 SnB

There are two ways of looking at that scenario

Your opinion is that Salmond is spoiling for a fight with the English - presumably you mean the UK Government?

The other body of opinion is that Salmond is fighting to obtain the best deal for the population of Scotland.

Despite your last paragraph all indications are that the latter is more popular in Scotland.
75

Miss H,

15/08/2008 15:27:03
73 Interesting that you equate the UK Government with 'the English'.

What is that about?
76

nolimits,

BC 15/08/2008 15:28:18
# Duncan
Don't know if you income tax forms are like ours, but do you have little boxes called 'Deductions' that you appropriately fill in to end up with a smaller tax bill? You see Duncan, what the government appears to give, it most certainly takes away in other forms. So, I for one, will take every LEGAL deduction I can find, AVOID like hell, and leave the EVASION to the criminals.
77

Alan B,

15/08/2008 15:33:52
#Scottish 'N British

I seriously do not think the snp government have picked fights with labour in westminster. As far as i can see it is mainly the other way.

Personally i think it is stupid of labour and they should act more reponsibily as they are in effect undermining the union they support.

Just look at the way labour in westminster have acted.
1)Blair does the mannerly thing and phone and congratulate Salmond on his win.
2)Brown does not either until embarrassed by the scottish media.
3)Brown publicly comes out and says he will not work with the scottish government.
4)Brown is reported to not return phone calls from the scottish government.
5)Brown initially refused to work through the mechanisms set up by labour themselves to co-ordinate between westminster and the devolved administrations
6)Labour refused their own labour scottish government info from social security dept as they tried to stop their own labour party in scotland introducing free personal care
7)labour stopped money to scotland as punishment for introducing free personal care despite being their own party in scotland.
8)labour try to stop lit by announcing it illegal despite that being initially the call of the preciding officer in scotland wrongly putting pressure on a legal decision.
9)labour try to withhold money to scotland if we should use the powers with the devolution settlement to move away from council tax.
10)brown withholds money to scotland by passing barnett consequentials when he increased money to england on prisons.
11)Brown gives scotland the lowest ever increase (not an increase at all but a cut if you look at the real inflation rate) when scotland did not return a labour government.
12)brown and darling change baseline to give the appearance of bigger increase in scottish budget creating a unseemly fight when swinney exposed the so called 1.8% increase (less than the rest of the uk) was actually only 1.4% and only 0.5% in the first yr.



78

Alan B,

15/08/2008 15:36:27
#Scottish 'N British

Do you classify it as the snp creating a fight when they exposed that labour were lumping english expenditure in the scottish budget, to try to give the appearance of a poorer fiscal position for scotland?
79

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 15:38:38
#76 And the net result is that those with the money to employ a tax expert will minimise their contribution to public services while those without will simply pay the fair rate of tax that is set out to them. Am I alone in seeing the injustice in that?

Perhaps its the old socialist in me, but I take pride in what we do collectively as a country, and in the fact that my hard work not only generates taxes but also creates and maintains jobs for others. People who practice tax avoidance are simply selfish, in my opinion. Are we a nation of self-centred folk now?
80

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 15:40:02
#77 That entire list is a tissue of lies. What a bare faced cheek you have. You are nothing more than a liar, sir.
81

Alan B,

15/08/2008 15:40:58
#Scottish 'N British

"Libyan terrorists"

Do you actually remember the issue. Blair was trying to make secret deals with libyia but hid the info from the scottish government despite the fact that the scottish government has control of certain related matters.

So more like labour picking another fight with the scottish goverment.

Add another few:
- brown telling civil service not to cooperate with scottish government and keep scottish civil service out the loop.
- refusal to devolve civil service to sp despite alreadying being done in northern ireland.
- refusal to officially rename scottish exec to scottish government despite the fact that they had allowed the much weaker welsth assembly to make that change.
82

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 15/08/2008 15:43:50
Once more the extremist unionista on this forum prove their blind loyalty to the Westmonster System comes before the Welfare of the Scottish People.

Surely its time for this lot of Brits to pack their bags and move down to their beloved Country. Their blind loyalty to Westmonster surely proves their lack of credability on all matters that will benefit the Scottish Nation.

Hang your heads in shame.
83

Alan B,

15/08/2008 15:44:17
#80 Duncan in Edinburgh

They have all been reported in this newspaper or through the bbc.


84

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 15:48:14
#82 Actually it's time for People Like You who unnecessarily use Capital Letters to emphasise their Limp Arguments to sit down, shut up and learn something about the world. People who believe Scotland is subjugated by England are simple under-educated. It's not true, and it's not rational to maintain such a belief.

The SNP is supported by an army of simpletons - like you.
85

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 15:49:35
The Labour/LibDem allowed CalMac and NorthLink ferries staff to be recruited through agencies in Malta and the Channel Islands. This avoids paying employers NI contributions.
How many of you complained about this avoidance of tax at the time ?
86

Alan B,

15/08/2008 15:49:37
#Duncan in Edinburgh

What makes me laugh is you argue about integrity and honesty but support labour, the most openly corrupt government i can every remember. The make the tories indiscretions pale into insignificance.
87

brownlie,

15/08/2008 15:50:36
80 Duncan

This silly statement illustrates precisely the weakness of your previous postings.
88

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 15:52:53
#83 Don't be ridiculous. They are political opinions with only the loosest association with news stories.

I do love how you are outraged at the consistent application of the Scotland Act with regard to policy differences. When free personal care was introduced it was absolutely right that any benefits previously payable to people to support personal care were no longer payable. The only reason your lot is bothered by that is that you want to wangle yourselves out of the massive £700 million a year hole in the LIT scheme by claiming that Council Tax rebate should be coughed up even when there are no council tax payers any more!

Lies, distortions and misinformation, all presided over by a smug idiot: the SNP.
89

Davie from Irvine,

15/08/2008 15:53:57
scot brit @69 call it an old Chestnut if you like, the A9 should have been dualed many years ago, long before devolution, it i s a disgrace such a major busy and treachures road has been for so long neglected, not a good argument for the union let along retaining said union, road tax money is raised to build , improve and repair roads in the whole of the UK, John Swinney i hope is fighting as such for road funds.
90

brownlie,

15/08/2008 15:55:06
84 Duncan

You are the only person who mentioned being "subjudgated" by England. I think you are confusing the UK Government with England - quite a natural thought progression for you.
91

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 15:58:40
#89 This is an argument I simply cannot understand, and it strikes me that those who make it must simply never use the A9.

Personally I drove its length last week, all the way from Thurso to the junction with the M90 at Perth. The road is extremely well maintained, and very safe. It is a little busy at peak times but nothing in comparison with routes around Edinburgh or Glasgow, and there are rarely any serious traffic jams.

The only problem with the A9 is a minority of the drivers who use it, who seem determined to overtake at dangerous points when it would rarely gain them any time on their journey at all.

There is simply no need for the A9 to be dualled. There are far, far more needy roads in the country.
92

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 16:01:28
#90 If you're going to put quotes around it you might as well copy and paste it, then at least it would be correct.

And trust me, I have had many an argument with the poster currently known as "A Better Way", and my caricature was entirely accurate.
93

brownlie,

15/08/2008 16:05:45
92 Duncan

Pardon??? Does a typing error make it invalid? Sorry to say the rest of your posting does not make any sense.
94

Alan B,

15/08/2008 16:06:00
#Duncan in Edinburgh

-So are you saying Blair did phone Salmond to congratulate him?
-Did Brown phone Salmond on his victory or did he wait a week later when the press slagged him off?
-Did you not hear Brown on tv saying he would not work with an snp government?
-Did you no hear even some labour people come out and say Brown was in the wrong?
-Is it untrue the media reports that Brown does not return Salmonds phone calls.
-Was it untrue that labour publicly said they did not want to use their own mechanisms to co-ordinate betweent the devolved institutions. Remember this was not just the snp but labour in wales and ni party reps.
-did scotland lose money when the sp introduced free personal care
-was the labour reps lying when they said Darling at social security refused to give the sp requested info to introduce free personal care.
-was it right the treasury bypassed the proper procedure to try to declare lit illegal.
-even AM2 agrees the money from council tax rebate should come to scotland.
-did labour pass on prison barnet consequentials
- did labour give the lowest increase ever to the scottish parliament.
- did they try to pass of the increase as greater than it was by changing baseline without publicly saying so.
-why did labour think it ok to grant a weaker welsh assemnbly the power to call their exec government but refuse it to scotland.
-was it not reported in this paper that brown ordered whitehall to keep info from the scottish civil service.
-did blair work with the scottish government the proper manner over the libyian deal.

You do not have a leg to stand on.
95

Alan B,

15/08/2008 16:13:09
#Duncan in Edinburgh

"The only reason your lot is bothered by that is that you want to wangle yourselves out of the massive £700 million a year hole in the LIT scheme by claiming that Council Tax rebate should be coughed up even when there are no council tax payers any more!"

That is simply daft.

The issue is what is the point in having devolution, creating a scottish parliament and giving it power to change the method of local government taxation, and then removing money from scotland if the sp democratically choses to use that power. It is completely silly. But then brains and labour do not go hand and hand.

What would labour position be if in power in scotland and the tories were to introduce a poll tax mark 11 in england. Would scotland have to introduce that tax to get any similar monies. It is daft. The fact is when we had rates there was central government funding for it, poll tax and now council tax. As such it is absurd that scotland would lose money for using that power created ironically by labour devolution settlement.
96

Arfur,

15/08/2008 16:14:20
#84 Duncan in Edinburgh - there is only one simpleton on this thread kiddo.
97

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 16:15:54
#94 The only substantial accusations fail to support your claim. The rest are flannel.

Who sent out the press releases claiming that Brown was snubbing Salmond? The SNP: picking fights.

Who continues to send out press releases claiming that Brown is being unhelpful or working against Scottish interests? The SNP: picking fights.

Who instead of working quietly to set up a new relationship between Westminster and Holyrood in the light of the change of government decided to go public with unsubstantiated accusations of Westminster arrogance? The SNP: picking fights.

Who has consistently called the above inflation increase in the block grant last year a "cut", "the tightest ever settlement" and various other phrases designed to make people believe the direct opposite of the truth? The SNP: picking fights.

As for free personal care and council tax benefits - this is the biggest red herring of all from the SNP. The issue is utterly simple: benefits are paid to individuals who qualify for them. If no individuals qualify, no benefit can be paid.
98

"Hoots" Fandango,

15/08/2008 16:19:26
80 Duncan in Edinburgh,

#77 "That entire list is a tissue of lies. What a bare faced cheek you have. You are nothing more than a liar, sir."

Heavens above Duncan. All your post lacked was "stamps foot and goes all huffy."
99

Tormod,

Dalgety Bay 15/08/2008 16:20:43
Duncan watch these, the SNP stands up for Scotland, remember what pride is man, what about having some in yourself and nation!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icf3hnQND94

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKBLgcAnzLY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPS0fP0FsjU&feature=related
100

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/08/2008 16:23:15
#99 How dare you suggest that just because I don't support the SNP I don't have pride in my nation?

You people are a disaster for my nat