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Published Date: 05 March 2008
THE Lord Advocate, Elish Angiolini, yesterday launched a fierce attack on Scotland's rape laws, blaming them for the country's internationally low conviction rate.
Elish Angiolini, Scotland's Lord Advocate, has suggested that the requirement for corroboration should be watered down in an effort to increase the number of rape convictions. Picture: Neil Hanna
Elish Angiolini, Scotland's Lord Advocate, has suggested that the requirement for corroboration should be watered down in an effort to increase the number of rape convictions. Picture: Neil Hanna
Speaking at a major conference on sexual offences, she rejected accusations that prosecutors in Scotland were lagging behind other nations in their handling of rape cases – despite that fact the country has one of the world's lowest conviction rates for the crime.

Scotland's top prosecutor suggested one of the pillars of the legal system – the requirement for corroboration – should be watered down to boost the number of rape convictions.

In doing so, she goes further than the Scottish Law Commission which, after its review of rape laws, stopped short of proposing a relaxation of the need for corroboration.

Only about 3.9 per cent of reported rapes in Scotland end in conviction. This is one of the lowest rates in the world, comparing with 5.6 per cent in England and Wales, and 8.2 per cent in Germany.

Widespread concern over the conviction rate is fuelling a drive to reform the law on rape, with the Scottish Government set to announce a raft of changes. A new sexual-offences bill will be unveiled later this year, following the publication of a report last month that recommended the crucial concept of consent be defined in law for the first time.

Ms Angiolini told a Rape Crisis Scotland conference that the country's rape laws were "among the most restrictive in the western world".

She said: "The requirement for corroboration is almost unique in Scots law. It is a fundamental principle of our legal system, and it is the reason why about one-third of all reported rapes are thrown out.

"What we need to do in Scotland is determine if this rule is appropriate and if it needs to be adjusted."

She went on: "It is not for me as Lord Advocate to decide on whether the requirement for corroboration should be retained – but if we are serious about reforming the law in this area, the question is at the heart of the debate and is one which we cannot avoid."

The Scottish Government has asked the Law Commission to review the law on evidence, which is regarded as one of the biggest hurdles to securing a rape conviction. Scotland is one of the few countries that requires there to be corroborative evidence before a case can be put to the jury. Ms Angiolini said the law as it stood presented "real problems" for victims of rape – but claimed the Law Commission's proposals alone would make little difference to the conviction rate.

"We must be realistic about the impact which reform of the substantive law alone will achieve, and I am therefore heartened that the cabinet secretary for justice has asked the Law Commission to review the law of evidence. Only reform of both the substantive law and the law of evidence combined will provide us with a sound framework within which to tackle attrition."

One of the ways prosecutors can overcome the corroboration hurdle is by applying the so-called Moorov rule, which allows for numerous alleged victims of similar crimes at the hands of an accused to corroborate each others' evidence. But Ms Angiolini said that courts generally allowed the rule to apply only where the offences took place over just a few years.

The Lord Advocate, who has previously attracted controversy for speaking out on other issues, including the collapse of the World's End murder trial, said she believed the Moorov doctrine should be extended to help prosecutors prove more sex crimes.

"I do consider that Moorov should be extended … to include, for example, someone who abuses younger siblings, then goes on to abuse their own children, and, eventually, their own grandchildren, over a period of 20 or 30 years," she said.

Ms Angiolini said one reason why Scotland appeared to lag behind other countries in conviction rates was because of what was classed as rape. "Comparing the conviction rate with other countries is like comparing apples with pears," she said. "We're simply not talking about the same crime.

"But when you look at the more general conviction rate, it's not very different."

She highlighted the law in New York, where a man over the age of 21 who has consensual sex is committing rape if the female is under 17. Most other western countries also class sodomy and oral penetration as rape.

"We're not social pariahs or a backwater, which might be inferred from the conviction rate. It's just that the definition is so narrow," she said.

Ms Angiolini pledged to improve the way prosecutors handle rape cases, revealing that, by summer 2009, every Crown Office representative will have to undergo special training before they can take charge of a rape prosecution.

Fiona Raitt, professor of evidence at Dundee University law school, said vast numbers of rape victims would continue to be denied justice unless the requirement for corroboration was removed.

But Donald Findlay, QC, one of the country's leading advocates, said last night that any significant weakening of the need for corroboration would be a dangerous attack on Scotland's legal system that would result in more wrongful convictions.

"Just look at what's happened in England, and see how many people have to be released after serving very long terms of imprisonment for crimes they did not commit," he said. "That tells you how important the requirement for corroboration is. I don't believe you can make any exceptions on corroboration for rape or any other crimes."

Mr Findlay also criticised the plan to create a definition of consent.

"If you wish to have a statutory definition of consent, I would need some persuading that a civil servant could do a better job of formulating that than an experienced High Court judge," he said.

Scenarios created to 'clear up confusion' over issue of consent

LAST December, the Scottish Law Commission published recommendations which would lead to the most wide-reaching reform of sexual-offence laws in the country's history.

The plans would see the concept of consent in rape cases clearly defined in statute for the first time.

The commission said it was time to "clear up the confusion" surrounding consent, a key issue in trials, which is currently left up to jury members to define.

Gerry Maher, QC, who led the review, said at the time: "The law has to make absolutely clear that, just because someone is very drunk, they are not consenting to having sex."

Under the proposals, seven different scenarios in which a woman cannot be judged to have agreed to sexual activity will be laid down in law. They cover scenarios where she is intoxicated through drink or drugs, or has been threatened.

New crimes of sexual assault and sexual coercion, each carrying a maximum sentence of life imprisonment, would also be created.

The SNP government is expected to publish a new bill based on the recommendations in the spring.

The Scottish Law Commission's proposals are that consent will be defined in law as "free agreement" and non-consent scenarios will be stated in law. Seven possible situations are suggested so far:

1 The person has taken or been given alcohol or other substances and, as a result, lacks the capacity to consent, unless consent has been given earlier.

2 The person is unconscious or asleep and has not earlier given consent.

3 The person agrees or submits to sex as they are subjected to violence or the threat of violence.

4 The person agrees or submits to sex as he or she is unlawfully detained.

5 The person agrees or submits to sex because he or she has been deceived by the accused "about the nature or purpose of the activity".

6The person agrees to the act because the accused impersonates someone known to the alleged victim.

7 The only expression of agreement is made by someone other than the alleged victim.

The definition of rape will become gender-neutral, so male rape will be recognised as such.

An accused's belief that a woman consented will have to be "reasonably held" by him.

New offences of rape against children and people with a mental disorder will also be created.


Clearer definition welcome but convictions will still be difficult

I THINK the general mood is that the law commission has done a very good job in putting forward proposals for a statutory definition of rape that is much clearer than the existing common law.

However, the problems they themselves might recognise is how you will prove the constituent parts of rape.

For example, under these proposals, the man must have a "reasonable belief" that the woman consented.

But there will be great difficulties in proving what is a "reasonable" belief, and therefore difficulty in proving consent.

The commission has produced a list of factual scenarios where, if the situation exists, there is deemed to be no consent and therefore the crime of rape has been committed.

For example, if a man has sex with a woman who is "very drunk", she has no capacity to consent and so that is rape.

But how will you prove that she was very drunk?

If that happened at 2am on a Saturday night and she decided on Tuesday to go to the police, that won't take you very far.

It may be that you've got a bartender who says, "Yes, I sold her 14 vodkas in an hour".

But in the absence of corroboration, there will be difficulty with proof.

The proposals are a good step.

They can clarify the definition and have an educative purpose for young people and others.

But in terms of proving it in court, the need for corroboration in Scotland will always be a major hurdle.

At (yesterday's] conference, hosted by Rape Crisis Scotland, a panel of speakers in the closing session acknowledged corroboration was a hurdle.

However, the panel thinks there may also be other ways to circumvent the problem of proof.

For example, while you could not force the accused to go into the witness box to explain why he thought a woman had consented to have sex, you might permit the court to draw negative inferences from that refusal.

• Fiona Raitt is professor of evidence at Dundee University's school of law.

Internet clip of sex assault spurs call for crackdown

THE horrific ordeal of a young mother who was allegedly gang raped in front of her children then suffered the humiliation of having the attack posted on YouTube has led to calls for tougher monitoring of the internet.

Last night internet monitoring groups and politicians called on providers to "clean up their act" immediately or face stringent legislation.

The main problem is that while internet sites such as YouTube have a "report as unsuitable" option and a 24-hour team dealing with complaints, they cannot stop offensive material being posted.

The 25-year-old woman's ordeal took place in her home after, she believes, her glass of champagne was spiked. In the video, her two children, aged two and four, can be heard clearly screaming and whimpering in fear.

Three months later a three-minute clip of the attack was posted on the YouTube video sharing website. The mobile phone footage was watched by 600 people but none of them reported it to the police.

The victim, from south London, appears to be unconscious while her attackers laugh into the camera.

Eventually she heard rumours about the footage and reported it to the police. Three youths have been arrested but no charges have been brought yet.

The scale of the internet "policing" operation can be seen against a backdrop where a site such as YouTube claims its clips are viewed 100 million times every day, with ten hours of footage added a minute.

Sarah Robertson, communications manager at Internet Watch Foundation, said: "We operate a UK hotline for people to report unsuitable material, including criminally obscene and depraved acts, child sexual abuse and racial abuse.

"If the material has originated in the UK it's dealt with very quickly. But while we may have done our job here in the UK a lot of material is hosted in the US and Russia by very computer-savvy criminals.

"Policing the internet is difficult. You can't act like old-fashioned police and just go and knock on a door."

Bill Aitken, Tory justice spokesman, said: "The benefits of the internet and technology have been immense but the downside is seen clearly and ever more frequently where people are prepared to record the most objectionable material and disseminate it.

"This is totally unacceptable and the providers carry a responsibility. They need to get their own house in order or the day may well come where legislation has to be considered.

A spokesman for the Internet Service Providers Association said internet users had a duty to report inappropriate material.

But Dr Peter Kemp, director of information services and expert on IT security at the University of Stirling, said the technological realities of the internet made policing ISPs extremely difficult.

"The difficulty lies in the way the internet was designed, which makes it incredibly difficult for anyone to police the whole enterprise," he said.

"ISPs are a series of computers whose job is to pass traffic through them as quickly as possible. A picture or words will be broken up into lots of little pieces, even passing through from different routes, meaning they can't police incomplete information.

"A company like YouTube does take complaints reasonably seriously and will deal with complaints quickly. If offensive material is posted on a site set up by individuals, you can find out who the internet provider is and under these circumstances the provider will cut the line.

"But ultimately the responsibility lies with the individual to report the material. The law is on your side."

SHAN ROSS



The full article contains 2319 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 March 2008 8:06 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

,

05/03/2008 00:25:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

TommyKaye,

UK 05/03/2008 00:25:52
Saudi Arabia
Kuwait
Sudan
etc etc Scotland the worst?
3

Resolutions,

05/03/2008 00:27:28
Maybe Scots Law is of world standard, but if a case does not get the length of the court, because of short comings elsewhere in the system, it falls short in this case.
4

,

05/03/2008 00:41:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

!Ya basta!,

05/03/2008 02:40:25
I think we need to untangle this a bit.

The headline is from the journalist and as pointed out above is clearly incorrect and is also not what was said.

The conviction rates for rape are too low and cause for serious concern for all of us. I think everybody knows that cases collapse too early in the process and that oftne there is not a full and proper hearing.

Reducing rigour to help improve the conviction rate is dangerous. However, this same rigour may in fact be a barrier to justice, which is the ultimate aim. Rape is an extremely difficult and special area and we needs special consideration. On balance I think a review (which is all Angioliini is calling for at this stage) is a good idea.

I do agree with Encarta that Crown prosecutors need better training - though this is identified in the article.

6

indune1,

05/03/2008 02:55:02
4 - Resolutions -

Length of . . . shortcomings ... falls short of ...?

We are talking of Scottish courts, are we not?
7

Helene,

Ontario, Canada 05/03/2008 03:33:48
As a non-resident I cannot comment on Scots Law but a very low conviction rate for rape in Scotland is surely cause for reflection/review. The word "rape" has been dropped from the legal lexicon in many countries; sexual assault is a more contemporary term. Perhaps an update in thinking is required.
8

Solidarity supporter,

north berwick 05/03/2008 05:09:52
Perhaps if Lothians and Borders Police didnt deploy on average 14 police officers for over a year, and spend over 40,000 hours and £1 million pounds trying to prosecute Tommy Sheridan they might improve their miserable clear up rate of 4% on rape!
9

Royster,

05/03/2008 05:49:42
Replace corroboration with a lie detector. Increase penalties for false accusations. 'Conviction rate' is a stalinist term.
10

Pomodora,

Gravesend 05/03/2008 06:06:01
Rape is a violent crime committed against a woman or a man which has social,psychological, physical and life threatening cosequences. In some states in the US it carried the death penalty and now the incarceration period can be up to life and life without parole for re-offennders. Sexual assault is a mamby-pamby term which often just carries a slap on the wrist. Rape, unlike non pre-meditaed murder, is always an intentional act of violence and should carry the full weight of the law to its maximum capacity.
11

Pilrig.,

Livingston 05/03/2008 06:20:14
2 - it's the wicked hussies who lead men on etc etc....
12

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 05/03/2008 06:33:07
#13 Rape deserves life in prison as an absolute minimum, some surgery with a rusty knife, etc
13

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 05/03/2008 06:36:07
"She highlighted the law in New York, where a man over the age of 21 who has consensual sex is committing rape if the female is under 17."

In Scotland, a couple of 21 and 16 could be married, yet Elish Angiolini would have their normal sexual relationship considered as rape.

Do we really need a heterophobe for a Lord Advocate?
14

walter,

05/03/2008 08:04:32
#14
No it is not, rape is a heinous crime and the perpetrators should be castrated.
I have said before No means No but rape crisis Scotland also want Yes to mean No.
The laws are there to convict rapists they need to be used not changed.
15

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 05/03/2008 08:27:56
quote:
"1 The person has taken or been given alcohol or other substances and, as a result, lacks the capacity to consent, unless consent has been given earlier."

Firstly - probably 90% of people having sex have also consumed alchohol - whether it is a quiet candle-lit dinner for two or cans of lager behind the bus shelter.

Secondly - how can one later prove that "consent has been given"? Do people have to carry a minidisc recorder and ask a formal question before proceeding? It could be a real passion killer! Do couples now have to have a lawyer by the bedside - or - let me see - a new government funded quango - called "Informed Consent" - where you both phone up and lodge/ swear a commitment to safe sex within the next ten minutes?

If a society abandons all the moral codes of its ancestors - as this one has done in less than 30 years - it does not bring freedom or happiness. Just an avalanche of abortions; a plague of gonnorhoea, chlamydia, syphilis and AIDS, hers of single parent families and millions of divorces. Still, no doubt the condom waving 'relationship advisers' will say - we're all 'freer'.
16

Boab,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 08:29:00
Rape currently carries a sentence of three to eight years, less than the sentences which have recently been given out for fraud or smuggling cannabis.

But getting back to the headline, I think we could do with specialist courts for rape such as in the USA.
17

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 08:32:53
Can anyone clarify for me, is it 3.9% of REPORTED rapes that ends in convitions or 3.9% of cases that come to court? There's a big difference. If it's the former, the low figure is no surprise. The number of spurious, if not false allegations is significant, usually linked to excess alcohol consumption.
18

brownlie,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 08:41:08
In my opinion those who run brothels where women are forced to have sex should also be charged with aiding and abetting rape and sentenced accordingly. I also, cannot believe that the "customers" are not aware that the women involved are doing so against their will. By the same token, pimps. who force women onto the streets, should also be charged with a more serious offence.
19

Miss Dee,

Tayside 05/03/2008 08:56:07
Maybe it's just a matter of will. After all, we wouldn't stand for a 3 percent conviction rate for bank robbers.
20

Gothic Rose,

05/03/2008 09:01:12
10#Helene.
How dainty.Rape is Rape is...Sexual assault can be of varying degrees.Terminology is NOT what it is about.
21

seanie,

05/03/2008 09:04:58
#16 "In Scotland, a couple of 21 and 16 could be married, yet Elish Angiolini would have their normal sexual relationship considered as rape."

No. That's not what she was saying.

Try reading the article again and this time try to understand it.
22

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 05/03/2008 09:24:54
Re #28 : I don't really see the sense in "highlighting" something (as opposed to "mentioning" or "contrasting" it) unless you think it's a good idea.

Still, I can see that the passage concerned can be interpreted in different ways.
23

voltaire's janny,

05/03/2008 09:26:13
Here we go again.

The problem is the definition of rape. Recent "clarifcation" of the definition of consent appear to the public to make trying it on after three vodkas the same crime (rape) as beasting a minor in a public park.

The absolutism around the cry of rape is inappropriate and juries will respond if their sense of natural justice is violated.

An explicit menu of acts, degrees of coercion and, yes, behaviour of victim are all part of the picture in establishing the nature of the crime. Corroboration is about showing the alleged offence actually took place.

I have no issue with accumulating circumstantial evidence against serial offenders - this goes a long way to establish guilt, but in a one off "he says/she says", no corroboration is no proof and the accused must go free without a stain on his character, though his life will likely be damaged regardless.

Corroboration is not a dispensible element of jurisprudence, it is the source of its authority in finding fact.

If a victim washes, waits three days, has no bruising or injury, was intoxicated at the time, gives inconsistent testimony and her assailant goes free, then the answer is public education, appropriate police response and procedure.

It is most certainly not, convict him anyway because he looks like a perv, he must have done it because the victim says so and all wimmin need the law to punish the beast.
24

Clive Hamblin,

Sussex 05/03/2008 09:26:32
Well said 22.

I've no doubt that you've said what a lot are thinking but dare not say openly.

Once again: well said!
25

seanie,

05/03/2008 09:28:50
#28
I suppose the passage could be interpreted in the way you first suggested.

But only if you willfully misrepresent what she actually said.
26

voltaire's janny,

05/03/2008 09:28:54
#10 - Helene - exactly!
#27 Gothic Rose - exactly the problem.
27

Scottie,

South Africa 05/03/2008 09:33:13
Tweedmouth, any idea of how many lairds and "masters of the house" raped women in subordinate situations in the past? The women wouldn't have stood a hope in hell of getting their masters or the village high-ups into court let alone convicted. Any idea of how many rapes went unreported before the middle of the 20th Century?
28

HECUBA,

London 05/03/2008 09:40:31
Three reasons why rape convictions are one of the worst in the world. One, because it is widely held women consent to being forcibly penetrated by a man unless the woman can provide absolute proof she did not consent. If a woman has physical injuries this is still seen as just 'rough sex.' Given the societal portrayal of women as men's sexualised commodities I am not surprised so many blame women for men making the choice to rape women. Also, male sexuality is still believed to be uncontrollable once aroused and it is a woman's responsibility to control the man's sexual advances NOT THE MAN. Male defendants are not obliged to enter the witness to be cross-examined and women rape survivors still have to endure being cross-examined by defence counsel in respect of their sexual history, medical history and personal history. All of which are designed to discredit the woman's character. Male defendants are not subjected to such intimate cross-examination. Many men believe women always consent and if a woman says 'no' she is simply being coy. No wonder so many male rapists are being acquitted.

SCOTTISH WOMEN AGAINST PORNOGRAPHY
29

conservative,

Fife 05/03/2008 09:47:17
So on top of any anonymous woman being allowed to drag any innocent man she chooses through the full glare of publicity we are now proposing that he should be found guilty on her word alone?

Is this really what happens when a woman is elected to high office?
30

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 05/03/2008 09:52:31
Re HECUBA (#35) : "Many men believe women always consent...".

What's the basis for this statement, please? I've yet to meet ANY man at all who imagines this to be the case.
31

Miss H,

05/03/2008 09:55:30
3 The views expressed by many on this forum would be welcomed in Saudi Arabia.
32

voltaire's janny,

05/03/2008 10:00:05
Hecuba. #35

Your portrayal of attitudes betrays your own. No-one, not even the most chauvanist of pigs posting here is blaming the victim. They are reacting viscerally as are you to a sense of injustice they perceive in fictional scenarios playing in their own heads.

At stake here is the system of justice. If conviction rates seem to be a problem, then take a long hard look at the definition of the crime, the impact on victim, the length of sentence, and above all the individual circumstances and facts that can be proven in court.

Many more men would be convicted or plead to one of a number of lesser offences, particularly where alcohol has been taken (not given) in excess, but when the outraged sisterhood wants life sentencing, off with the nads etc for the absolutist iconic crime of rape, then juries will do what they have done and not convict.

Are you simply saying abandon rules of evidence for this one category of crome?
33

Miss H,

05/03/2008 10:09:04
41 Our rules of evidence on rape particularly regarding corroboration are not dissimilar to Saudi Arabia. That's the point. As you see from many of these comments there is an assumption that unless there is corroboration then the allegation is probably false - a spiteful woman etc. So yes the rules of evidence do need to be changed.

34

It's me!,

05/03/2008 10:11:10
Is the Scottish conviction rate low because of political pressure on the prosecution service to bring rape cases of doubtful validity to court? I only ask the question. We could have a 100% conviction rate on the basis of the existing legislation if only 'solid' cases in which guilty verdicts are guaranteed are taken before a jury. Then we could be a world leader in guilty verdicts in rape cases. Lies and statistics come to mind.

And what if the victim has ulterior motives and gives consent but later claims rape. Could revenge or criminal compensation for such an claim. It's not unknown. No corroberation? I have no sympathy for offenders but as someone who has served on a jury in a rape case that gave a guilty verdict I would be very unhappy about being asked to give a guilty verdict on the word on the alleged victim alone.

By all means change the law to have oral and homosexual penetration classed as rape but we need to be very careful how easily we make it for a jury to give an incorrect guilty verdict. Remember, it could be your son or brother standing in the dock incorrectly charged with sexual offences.
35

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 10:13:18
" Widespread concern over the conviction rate is fuelling a drive to reform the law on rape, with the Scottish Government set to announce a raft of changes."

This is worrying, where will it end?!?
36

Toom,

05/03/2008 10:13:27
The basic problem is the large proportion of cases where the two parties know each other, are consensually together, and there are no witnesses. A scenario of 'yes he did' v 'no I didn't' is not something which an adversarial legal system can easily resolve, and it is seldom safe to convict.

#26 - the reason the conviction rate for bank robberies is higher is that there may be cctv, staff and customers as witnesses, a bag labelled 'swag' etc. It is seldom the case that the robber and teller are alone together, know each other, and that the robber claims he suggested the teller hand over some dosh and says that she willingly did so.
37

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 10:14:50
#26 Miss Dee

Er, most bank robberies tend not to take place in private places.
38

Rambo_the_Jambo,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 10:19:19
# 11 Solidarity supporter,north berwick


Typical thick headed commy crapology.

The police are not prosecuting Sheridan, the Crown are, at the request of the original trial judge. The police are only doing as they are told.

Get off your 'Tommy Sheridan is Innocent' high horse, he and the rest of your lot are perjurers and deserve everything coming to you.
39

 Ayrshire Scot™,

05/03/2008 10:26:48
42 Miss H

what do you mean? In some Islamic countries the evidence of a woman is treated with less weight than that of a man (in some countries it is given an exact weighting of a half/ quarter - which we all agree is disgusting)

But what do you mean by adjusting our standards of evidence?
40

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 10:30:26
#35 Hecuba

I agree that the sexualisation of our society is cause for concern, particularly as it affects the behaviour of younger people. But you really have to accept that we all have to take responsibility rather than portray women as being the unwilling victims. No-one forces mothers to allow their daughters to dress older than their years and wear make-up. No-one forces women into having their photographs taken for semi-naked advertisements. No-one forced young women to seek equality through assuming the worst characteristics of men, the so-called laddette culture.

And, by the way, no accused in Scotland, male or female, is obliged to say anything in their defence. It's one of the basic tenets of the system.
41

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 10:40:45
So what is she driving at here? What is her aim?

Presumably it is to increase the number of convictions for rape so that we are in line with other countries as though it is some kind of sick league table.

In order to achieve this, she advocates meddling with the requirement for collaboration. Effectively, if this was to happen, the accused would not get a fair trial. Sure enough it would satisfy her apparently insatiable desire to achieve as many convictions in this area as England and Germany, but what about the poor defendent?

It is one thing meddling with the process of law to enable millions of pounds a year to be made from speed cameras, but quite another to do the same to achieve a higher conviction percentage for serious offences.

Scotland should be PROUD of the fact that the rape conviction rate is low.

Angiolini is clearly unfit to hold office and certainly unfit to be at the Bar. She should resign immeditately.
42

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2008 11:04:02
What happens if both the man and the woman are similarly drunk and both consent to sex whilst in this condition? Does this somehow cancel out the ability of one party to claim he/she was raped because the other could claim the same?
43

seanie,

05/03/2008 11:04:28
Different crime I know, but given that Scotland consistently has one of the highest murder rates in Europe,often around twice that of England and Wales, I'd take a little convincing that Scots men are inherently more civilised than our EU or UK counterparts.
44

Teofilio Cubillas,

05/03/2008 11:06:57
One of the reasons that Scotland has the lowest conviction rate is that every complaint of rape made to police is recorded and investigated. Sorry, but a heavily drunk 20-year-old presenting herself at a police station in Naples or Barcelona and alleging that she had been raped by a guy she had met in a bar would be shown the door. Comparing Scotland with different cultures, even European ones, is a hugely flawed way of trying to benchmark where we stand in terms of how we deal with this crime. I'm in favour of re-classification. Stating (as many do) that rape is rape is rape is part of the problem. Juries understand rape to be a brutal crime deserving of significant jail time for the offender. When they are presented (as they often are) with evidence of one blind drunk male having sex with a blind drunk female they are loathe to label the male a rapist and see him jailed for the significant period a rape conviction attracts. Save the crime of rape for the really serious stuff and offer a secondary offence that covers these crimes. We already have different grades of assault (assault, assault to severe injury, assault to permanent disfigurement etc) attracting different sentences.
45

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2008 11:08:55
#54 I would like to see some evidence behind your murder statistics.
46

seanie,

05/03/2008 11:11:42
Well luckily there's plenty of it.

Try Google.
47

brownlie,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 11:12:07
Perhaps more victims would be more willing to come forward if sexual crimes were dealt with in a closed court without journalists present to stop them disclosing intimate details in a lurid manner to sell more newspapers.
48

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 05/03/2008 11:21:52
#27 Gothic Rose

I agree with you. When the criminal term "sexual assault" was substituted here for "rape" I was disturbed that it gentrified that heinous crime of violence against women (and some men) and was imprecise.

Why do we have to obfuscate the obvious with generalised terms that are devised to calm the masses.
49

Miss H,

05/03/2008 11:32:18
49 What is common is the requirement for corroborative evidence which is higher in Scotland than elsewhere. So the statement of the alleged victim is one piece of evidence but they need further evidence - usually what they are looking for is a witness or forensic evidence. There are usually no witnesses in rape cases and getting forensic evidence usually requires the alleged victim to present themselves after the incident without washing etc. So if you leave it a couple of days to go to the police it is too late. But a lot of people would be in shock after having been raped so going to the police straight away and providing samples is not going to be their first instinct.

What Eilish Angioli is saying is that we should look at changing those rules of evidence - that's where the Moorov rule thing comes into it. So if you could find a lot of women who said they had previously been raped by someone who was on trial for rape they would be allowed to say that in court. At the moment they are not.

It's not about reducing the level of proof required to convict - that is a fundamental misunderstanding. It's about what evidence can be brought to court.

People who say that they are proud that there is such a low conviction rate in Scotland just haven't thought about this. Unless you believe that 94% of women who report rape are liars then there are a lot of rapists walking free because in most cases the law does not recognise that there is even a case to answer.
50

,

05/03/2008 11:33:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
51

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 11:36:44
Should an horrendous assault and a drunken fumble regretted the morning after really be classed as the same crime, as they are now?
52

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 05/03/2008 11:43:04
Not in the least bit suprising...some of the comments here, reflects the common attitude that still prevails...the focus is on alcohol and innocent men being sent down..no cries of outrage re what is happening in our courts....where woman are interrogated re their sexual pasts, and multiple partners seen to be a sign of promiscuity etc...the underwear they wore on the night of the alleged rape being held up for people to look at...

The amount of women who do not report rape is substantial...ask yourself why?....I have worked with women who have been raped and never reported it..because they know the treatment they will receive and that they will be blamed..

No innocent person should have their life ruined because of a liar....but a freed rapist is likely to rape again...as is one who has never been brought to justice in the first place..

30...Interesting how you state that an accused should walk free if there is no evidence to convict him...although his life will be damaged...!!...so are we to assume that all men who get off with rape (due to lack of evidence) are innocent?...I find your remark truly astonishing..this one sided scenario..what about the men who actually are rapists but we are unable to convict them because of lack of evidence...they are then freed to potentially rape again?...your scenario is somewhat confusing 'he says/she says' are you talking about a non rape situation or lack of evidence itself?...

53

Miss H,

05/03/2008 11:44:43
64 Or looking at it another way should a horrendous assault be written off because the victim was drunk?

There is no doubt in my mind that there should be different categories of rape and sexual assault but it's a dangerous assumption that a rape where drink is involved is somehow less horrific than one where it isn't.
54

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 11:53:52
#65, > Interesting how you state that an accused should walk free if there is no evidence to convict him... <

Isn't that what a trial is all about?
55

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 11:55:55
#67, I don't assume that. I do, however, think that there should be different categories of rape and sexual assault. If there were, I imagine it would be easier to bring rapists and those who commit sexual assault to justice.
56

Miss H,

05/03/2008 12:02:43
68 No it doesn't. Where did you get that from? If I rob your house while you are lying in a drunken stupor I cannot say well he didn't try and stop me and expect to get away with it.
57

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 12:08:55
#73, if someone robbed my house when I was lying in a drunken stupor, it would be the same crime and the burglar, if caught, would get the same punishment. But it's also true that I'd probably get less sympathy from people than if I'd been sober, had resisted and had been beaten up.
58

Miss H,

05/03/2008 12:09:49
69 Doreen's point is that the lack of evidence may be because of the very restrictive rules on evidence which is allowed in court rather than a lack of actual evidence.

Unless you believe that 94% of women who report rape are lying then there are a lot of men who are walking free because of lack of admissable evidence, not because they are innocent.
59

Miss H,

05/03/2008 12:13:52
75 In the eyes of the law it would be the same crime. The fact that you were drunk would not be relevant. That's the point I was making. You could well say that getting that drunk is pretty stupid and you made yourself vulnerable to attack. Fair point but it being stupid does not actually make someone fair game. In many ways the law exists to protect vulnerable and stupid people. Otherwise we are living in a jungle aren’t we?

60

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 12:16:41
Dave from Barra:

"...That would be a kick in the pants if it turned out Scots men are slightly more civilised than our EU or UK counterparts, eh?"

Isn't that the case?
61

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 05/03/2008 12:17:22
69...Please read the full quote "The accused should walk free if there is no evidence to convict him, although his life will be damaged".........the poster is assuming that he is innocent because he has not been convicted...this is my point...and that his life will be 'damaged'...

The other scenario of course, is the accused who is guilty and has not been convicted...and a victim whose life will of course be further damaged..
62

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 12:18:54
#78, I said in my earlier post that it would be the same crime and the burglar, if caught, would get the same punishment. We're in full agreement on this.

However, I've also been considering how I'd feel if I were robbed of my wallet. If it happened at knifepoint as I was walking home sober in a 'safe' area, minding my own business, I'd say it was entirely the mugger's fault. If, however, I was staggering home totally drunk and out of my senses, and found afterwards that my wallet had been stolen, I'd put pretty well the whole blame on myself. That's just how I'd feel, and I can't help it.
63

Miss H,

05/03/2008 12:38:05
Dave from Barra.

No I am not suggesting that all women and stupid and vulnerable. I am suggesting that people who get into a drunken stupor - irrespective of gender - and become victims of crimes are both stupid and clearly make themselves vulnerable. But that does not excuse the crime or make the victim responsible.

That's a basic point, surely, that everyone can agree on? It does not matter whether that crime is theft, rape or any other kind of assault.

What is sad is that it looks likely that the law will have to be amended specifically to make it clear that that rape is still rape even if the victim is drunk.

As regards the other point you made – what would happen if someone accused of theft said in court well actually the guy was drunk and when I asked him if it was OK to take away all his valuable possessions he said sure thing buddy so I did.

We can only speculate because I am not aware of any such defence being put forward in court for any crime other than rape. But I feel it would be unlikely to success don’t you?
64

moring,

Sydenham Melbourne Australia 05/03/2008 12:43:34
Rape is emotional murder, the victim must live with it for life therefor a rapist should serve life without any comforts. I, as a male feel very strongly about this crime.
65

Miss H,

05/03/2008 12:44:29
84 With respect how you feel isn't the point. You may well feel stupid and blame yourself and with any luck you might stop drinking so much. But the fact is that someone stole from you which is against the law. The law does not say it's OK to steal from someone if they are drunk and doesn't really understand what's going on. If you are going to go down that road then where do you stop? Is it also OK to steal from someone who has a learning disability because they don't really understand what's going on?
66

I still don't believe it !,

05/03/2008 12:49:28
It's down to a jury to decide in rape trials. No matter how much tinkering is done with corroberation, consent or otherwise, if the majority of the 15 jurors are not convinced by the evidence then they won't return a guilty verdit. What's really being proposed is a way to get more cases into court but that in itself will not lead to increased conviction rates. In fact in statistical terms it could actually lead to a reduction!
67

Broddr,

05/03/2008 12:53:44
Unfortunately rape is a seriously difficult crime to prove.

I totally agree that rape and any kind of sexual assaults should be punished with the full weight of the law.

But going down the road where if a woman (or man) says she was raped a conviction is instant.

That is not justice.

If that becomes the case then it should apply for all aspects of the law i.e. if I say that someone stole my car, they should be convicted on my word alone and no evidence or proof should be required.

There are too many ways for someone to be convicted unfairly.

The only solution in my view is for us all to carry around formal documents of consent and have each party sign them in the presence of a third witness such as a magistrate or policeman. These documents should then be submitted to a court and then a letter of consent sent to each party stating their intention for sex has been accepted and they may now do the deed.

This is such a tricky situation and women will always want men to be locked up on nothing more than the woman's word while men will always see the danger that will present to all men from spiteful women.

What if a woman (or man) gives consent to sex then proceeds to get blind drunk and totally forgets that she gave consent and assumes she was raped?

Is that still rape?

I hate the fact that so many rapists walk away free and so many women's lives are ruined by being raped but until we can come up with a system that is fair and just to both parties I can't see this changing.
68

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 13:10:28
#54

You are talking utter nonsense: I cannot find one website that suggests Scotland's murder rate is higher compared to the rest of the UK. And, to be honest, until you present some evidence I simply could not believe you.
69

brownlie,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 13:11:36
72 Dark Side

Until recently I worked with women who were forced into prostitution. In the same way as victims of domestic violence are too frightened to get in touch with the police these women, and I don't mean all who earn their money this way, are living in terror. It is more widespread than you would like to believe and are you really saying that those responsible should evade punishment for aiding and abetting rape?
70

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 13:12:38
* cannot
71

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 13:14:58
#94

Much obliged Dave, however, these date to a rather brutal period in terms of crime: the 80's. If anyone has any up to date statistics I would be interested to know...
72

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 13:27:17
#97
Not at all Dave, many thanks, it's just the time periods starts before me birth and perhaps more out of naivety I feel these stats don't reflect the country I grew up in.
Won't be much crime on Barra I'd imagine though, lol
73

Allan(handofgod137),

05/03/2008 13:30:36
Think this is a case of "A bad workwoman blaming her tools" .
74

Miss H,

05/03/2008 13:33:14
90 I don't know where you get your ideas from. Where is your evidence that the courts or anyone else consider that a victim of crime has brought that crime on themselves through having had a drink - other than in rape cases?

Take for example this story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/4670864.stm

Here is a woman targeting male pensioners in pubs. She indecently assaulted one man aged 81 who later discovered that £20 had been taken from his pocket. The police described this at a despicable offence - it made it onto the BBC website. No-one said well if you will go into pubs and have a drink and talk to strange women you can't expect the full force of the law to be applied. After all, how do we know you didn't give her the twenty quid in return for being indencently assaulted? You know I wonder if that would be your interpretation of that story.

75

Anthony,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 13:38:58
Yet again, this Lord Advocate muddies the waters between politics and her role as an impartial law officer. She also confirms the fears of many legal experts; namely that she is a legal lightweight. Angliolini should just be honest, and state that she wants a new offence of possession - possession of a penis aggrevated by testicles. Do people understand what getting rid of the need for corroboration would mean? On top of the restrictions she has already helped introduce - namely no right for accused to defend themselves, no right to see the evidence against them, no automatic right to see the experts reports into the evidence against them? This is gender based law. Pure and simple. Angliolini is a dangerous venomist. No one supporting her on this sexist male hating position, should ever be elected to public office again. No organisation supporting this sickening stance, should receive one penny of public money.
76

seanie,

05/03/2008 13:40:33
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/sep/26/ukcrime.scotland

"Scotland has the second highest murder rate in western Europe and Scots are more than three times more likely to be murdered than people in England and Wales, according to a study by the World Health Organisation."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/664845.stm

"Scotland's average yearly homicide rate between 2003 and 2005 was 2.26 victims per 100,000 population ( see Annex note 9.11). This was higher than the rate in England and Wales (1.59) and in Northern Ireland (2.01)."

http://www.scottishexecutive.gov.uk/Publications/2007/12/14114316/7

"Scotland's average yearly homicide rate between 2003 and 2005 was 2.26 victims per 100,000 population ( see Annex note 9.11). This was higher than the rate in England and Wales (1.59) and in Northern Ireland (2.01)."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/664845.stm

"The rate of murders in Scotland over a 10-year period was nearly twice the total in England and Wales, according to research."

http://www.stv.tv/content/news/headlines/display.html?id=opencms:/news/Scotland_has_highest_murder_rate_in_UK

"People in Scotland are three times more likely to be unlawfully killed than people in the rest of the UK."



http://www.reform.co.uk/website/pressroom/articles.aspx?o=185

"The murder rate in England continues to rise, up a quarter since 1990. In Scotland the murder rate is even higher: 137 victims in 2004-05, a third higher than in England (currently about 16 per 1m population). "
77

Miss H,

05/03/2008 14:08:13
103 No I am not. Alcohol is most certainly not considered a mitigating factor in crime. If it ever was it is no longer - indeed the Justice Secretary has made it very clear that it should never be considered a mitigating factor.

I really don't think that you have given this any serious thought. How many victims of assault do you think were under the influence of drink at the time they were assaulted.

Government estimates that three quarters of violent crime is committed under the influence of alcohol. I don't know if there are any figures about how many of the victims of violent crime were under the influence of alcohol but I'd guess it was at around the same level.

So what do you think happens? Do they go to court and the accused says well we were both hammered, we got into a fight and I chibbed him and the court says ach well that's alright son, he shouldn't have been cheeky.

If we apply your logic that would be what happens and 94% of people accused of assault would walk free the same way that 94% of people accused of rape do.
78

Miss H,

05/03/2008 14:15:24
104 Dave Incidentally the judgement you posted said that excessive alcohol comsumption was no excuse for the crime committed. In any case a more apt analogy would be if the girl who died had been drunk. Would it then have been her fault if she died in a fire which was deliberately set?
79

Anthony,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 14:17:39
My final point; the Lord Advocate also clearly contradicts herself in the article, and on the whole major permise of the article. The article opens by her stating that radical changes need to be made to the law on corroboration for rape, in order to boost Scotland's low conviction rate. But half way down the article and on a single sentence paragraph, she states that when adjustments are made to reconcile different definitions of the crime of rape, Scotland's figures are in fact not higher than most other countries. So which is it Lord Advocate?
80

Miss H,

05/03/2008 14:17:54
I am not drunk and you are completely ignorant of the law. No Sherriff ever has or would say such a stupid thing and incidentally the link you posted did not prove the point you were attempting to make. I suggest you calm down and try to look at these points rationally and logically instead of getting all het up about it. Is it your time of the month or something?
81

Simone (Lady Amarant),

London 05/03/2008 14:19:49
Trying to comment on what everybody else has said by now is suicidal, not to mention the fact I know sod-all about Scottish Law, so I won't even try, just give my opinion instead.

Rape is misdefined, which I think is a significant part of the problem. Most people understand rape to be sexual in nature, but it isn't. Psychologically. rape is an act of dominance, of enforcing your position of power on another.

Now as a Wiccan, I live by just one 'commandment', which is 'An it harm none, do as ye WILL is the whole of the law'. That big bold WILL is important, because it that is what defines us as human beings. We have the capacity to choose - Free Will, in other words.

Sex can ONLY be consensual if both parties are entirely free to choose, and to have that choice respected.

At the moment, the definition of rape is too narrow, because it focusses on consent while ignoring will. Somebody can say yes while still screaming no in his/her mind due to circumstances. More focus should be brought on establishing the circumstances and establishing if the power relationship was equal or not. If it was not, the weight shifts in favour of the victim, making a conviction more likely. By the same token, the accused has a better chance of proving innocence if (s)he can show that there was an equal capacity for choice in the matter.

Obviously there are still going to be a lot of grey areas in this sort of approach, but I believe that, by bringing laws, or at least the focus of the laws, more in line with what we understand about human psychology, there is less of a chance of a miscarriage of justice.
82

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 05/03/2008 14:29:58
100....couldnt agree more...just because your dad was murdered whilst drunk doesnt mean that his killer should get a bit knocked off his sentance...is this justice?
83

Anthony,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 14:37:56
Simone, a woman cannot commit rape, though both a woman or a man can be raped (a position in English law for some time, but an innovation in Scotland, where by common law only a woman could be raped). The law in Scotland does recognise that rape can occur even when the woman didn't physically resist - a relatively recent finding following on from two important cases. Like yourself, I agree with this. A woman shouldn't need to take a beating to prove she did not consent.

What the Lord Advocate is endorsing, goes much further, it is that the need for corroboration should be done away with just for rape and sexual offence cases. She is correct to point out that many other jurisdictions don't require corroboration. But what she (conveniently) neglects to mention, is the additional counter-weights they have in place to compensate for the absense of the need for corroboration. As one poster refers to, many cases which are pursued in Scotland, would not be in many other countries. By removing the need for the corroboration, without the counter-weights, we would be left with a situation where men, and only men, could be routinely sent to prison on nothing more than the word of someone, because that someone happens to be a woman. Ms Angliolini's laws would also prevent the accused man from being allowed to present evidence in his defence, by ruling it inadmissible. Combined with the above factors I mention (101) which restrict an accused person's defence in sexual offence related cases in Scotland, an accused person would have no chance, be he guilty or innocent. Surely no decent person can want this?
84

seanie,

05/03/2008 14:38:58
Scots law, traditionally, has been largely based on Common Law.
85

Miss H,

05/03/2008 14:44:14
Dave you have not made the argument that the fact that the alleged perpetrator of a crime is drunk should be considered as a mitigating factor.

The argument you have put is that the drunkenness of the alleged victim would be seen as a mitigating factor.

That is just not true. In support of your argument you posted a judgement regarding a case where a guy set fire to his flat whilst off his nut. The fact that he was off his not was not accepted as a mitigating factor but in any case it is irrelevant because we are talking about the effect of alcohol on the person who is the victim not the offender.

Incidentally what do you mean by SCOTS law and COMMON law? The common law is part of Scots law not separate to it.
86

Miss H,

05/03/2008 14:46:06
116 Surely you mean that the law at present does not recognise that a woman can commit rape.

In reality they can.
87

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2008 14:53:52
#100 Miss H

Was she charged with sexual assault?
88

Simone (Lady Amarant),

London 05/03/2008 14:56:38
#116: Anthony,

Well, I suppose we're talking definitions here: If by rape, we mean only violation using your own penis of biological origin, then yeah, a woman can't rape. However, there are plenty of ways to violate somebody without using said appendage. If that is the definition, it's too narrow, because sexual assault is regarded as a lesser crime, and it shouldn't be.

AS I said, I really can't comment on the proposed changes, since I know very little of laws and legal systems in general. To my mind though, rape cases in general are too grey, and I feel there should be a global overview of how they are approached.
89

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2008 15:02:59
#116 Anthony. Good post. Forgetting for a moment about how the law looks upon rape, in the real world it IS possible for a woman to rape a man.
90

seanie,

05/03/2008 15:12:48
Quick Dave....you better let the Scottish Parliament know.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/research/pdf_subj_maps/smda01-10.pdf

"One of the notable characteristics of Scots criminal law is that it is based on what is known as ‘common law’."
91

yockel,

05/03/2008 15:13:56
Rape happens, it can be as heinous a crime as it is possible to imagine, one which the sentencing options of a civilised country are unable to balance and the details of which the press are unlikely to publish. In the case of serial sex offenders no determinate period of imprisonment is adequate
Though it has to be admitted serial offenders often show a disturbing history of previous evasions of justice few of the 96.1% of reported cases not resulting in conviction are likely to fall into the heinous category.
The four rape cases I have personal awareness of perhaps reflect that 96.1%
1. Shop assistant accused and charged with raping a fellow employee in a cupboard at work. Graphic and detailed account given by victim. Charges subsequently dropped when "victim" admits she got pregnant through consensual sex with her boyfriend (not the co-worker) but was afraid to tell her mum.
2. Young soldier positively identified in an identity parade, charged. He and his family given a good working over. Charges grudgingly dropped when it was shown he was on duty abroad at the time of the alleged incident.
3. Father accused of attempting to have sex with his teenage daughter. Found not guilty after the defence used information from a psychiatric report obtained by Social Services but which they had not produced to the court. (We are in the Marietta Higgs era here).
4. Twenty-one year old youth charged with statutory rape for having consensual sex with his fifteen year old girl friend, again at the behest of social services, admonished when it was volunteered by the "victim" in the witness box that she had to all intents and purposes been living as man and wife with a thirty-two year old for the two years prior to forming the relationship with the accused and had not exactly been forthcoming regarding her age.
So though number 4. should also have been not guilty there we have a 25% conviction rate but was any heinous offence been committed by any of these men? It is arguab
92

yockel,

05/03/2008 15:16:25
#seanie English law is common law, Scots is Roman. If the writer of your pdf doc thinks otherwise it just shows how ignorant of our laws the executive are.
93

yockel,

05/03/2008 15:18:33
the rest of #126
It is arguable the conviction rate is 25% too high!
Reduce the burden of proof? On yer bike!
94

Miss H,

05/03/2008 15:24:38
Dave what are you going on about. A lot of Scots law is common law. It's not like a separate system.



95

seanie,

05/03/2008 15:25:23
Scots law, in large measure, has been derived from Common Law; through cases, judgements, precedents etc. rather than statute.

We have a differing legal tradition from England and a differing Common Law, but to claim that Scots law doesn't rely heavily on a Common Law custom is just absurd.
96

yockel,

05/03/2008 15:29:09
We are in danger of getting in to a pointless and infinite regression of definitions here but the Judgements giving rise to the the so called common law in Scotland are based on the interpetation of Roman Law. Judgements are not absolutely binding and there is no concept of judgemetns "discovering" the unwritten common law as in England.
97

seanie,

05/03/2008 15:33:52
"Common law

Many Scots laws are simply part of the law of the land. For example, murder and theft are not defined in statute as offences, but come under Common Law. This has sources in custom, in legal writings and in previous court decisions. Unlike in English law, the use of such precedents is subject to the courts seeking to discover the principle which justifies a law rather than to search for an example as a precedent."
98

Sinibaldi,

Italy 05/03/2008 15:33:53
Las palabras del amor.

Estas palabras
describen la noche,
y esta emoción
reside silente
en la luz de un
sombrero como
triste armonía de
una mágica suerte.

Francesco Sinibaldi
99

yockel,

05/03/2008 15:34:43
#135 Rape has next to nothing to do with the common law either read your statutes.
100

seanie,

05/03/2008 15:37:32
Nobody was suggesting it was entirely Common Law based.
101

Green,

Dundee 05/03/2008 15:39:45
That's got this drunk thing clear.

If I come across a person lying in the street, maybe unconcious, maybe in a very bad way, I should do the following:

I will NOT check if the person seems to have been assaulted or run over.

I will NOT see if the person appears to be having an epileptic fit or has some other medical emergency info on them.

I will assume they are drunk or on drugs.

I will not offer them any assistance as an ethical human being.

I will just use my pointed high heels to kick him in the balls and steal his wallet, then run away.

And it will all be his fault, I'm not a criminal in any way, as he set himself up for it.

That's the standard of ethics in most of these male posts.

102

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 15:58:24
#142, if I were robbed of my wallet at knifepoint when sober, my wife would be very sympathetic. If I were robbed of my wallet when I was stinking drunk and incapable she would have no sympathy with me whatsoever and would tell me I'd brought it on myself!

So I don't think it's just a male point of view.
103

Miss H,

05/03/2008 16:01:04
141 No I don't. You said in post 68 that 'Alchohol consumption plays a significant factor when sentences are handed down. That is why there are different classifications of murder and assault and sentences thereof (not forgetting drink driving, driving without due care and attention etc etc).'

That is rubbish. There are no different classifications of sentences for murder or assault depending on whether or not the victim or indeed the perpetrator was drunk and courts have been directed that they should no longer accept the drunkenness of the perpetrator of a crime as any kind of mitigation.
They never as far as I am aware accepted the drunkenness of the victim as a mitigating factor resulting in a lighter sentence.

You can sneer at comment 142 all you like but her post neatly summarises the absurdity of your position.


104

Anthony,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 16:06:06
There seems some confusion about law sources. Just to clarify; anything not in statute (Act, Statutory Instument etc), is common law. That includes case law -law made by legal precedent set in courts. It also includes Roman Law, which you find mainly in the law of property nowadays, though it does crop up in other areas now and then. Roman law is still moderately influential via the so-called institutional writers - Erskine, Bell Hume and so on. When you bring in EC law (or EU law as it will be if the Treaty of Lisbon is ratified), things get much more complicated. Since domestic courts of member states (including Scottish courts)are required to implement EC law, strictly speaking it is part of Scots Law, rather than an add on. Custom, as mentioned by a poster, is indeed part of common law, but not as important as it once was, though it certainly would not be wise to disregard it. Hope this helps.
105

Green,

05/03/2008 16:07:28
144

You miss the point, what if you were mugged or epileptic or having an asthma attack? Is that less your fault than being drunk? Did you start a fight, forget to take your tablets, sit next to someone who was smoking when you know you have asthma attacks started by this?

How do you know any of this about a person if you come on them? Good, bad, indifferent, they are all human beings.... yes even women.

The person is incapable and in need of care and any non-criminal would come to your aid.

Tourism on Barra will be down soon!

106

Anthony,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 16:12:03
Oh yes, and bear in mind too, that common law can still apply even to areas which are covered by statute. Sounds daft? Statutes usually don't cover every conceivable part of an area of the law, very often there are gaps. Common law can be used to fill those gaps.
107

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 16:13:50
#147, you're the one missing the point here. I was speaking about being stinking and helplessly drunk, not about having an asthma attack or an epileptic fit. Of course it would be my fault if I were helplessly drunk.

And anyway, I'm referring to my wife's likely reaction, not to my own view. I'm sure she would regard me as the villain of the piece for having got drunk and incapable, and would have no sympathy with me whatsoever. (I would tend to be more indulgent towards a drunk - male or female - than she would!)
108

Patrick O'Shaunnessy,

05/03/2008 16:17:20
Corroboration is extremely important to weed out false accusations of rape. If some women knew that all they had to do was point a finger and burst into tears in order to get some poor bloke into the dock on a rape charge, our courts would be overwhelmed with the resulting deluge of rape cases.

Such women could try their luck at convincing a jury, and if she comes across well in court, it's game over for muggins, and a lifetime spent on the SO Register just because some mad lying bag took a strong dislike of him.

If the jury don't find her convincing, she can tearfully exit stage left into the arms of victim support who wouldn't dream of suggesting that she was lying, and who will assist her in getting a 5 figure lump sum from criminal injuries, who might still pay out even when the accused is aquitted.

We need corroboration to protect innocent men from these kind of scenarios. There plenty of bunny boilers abroad in Scotland.
109

Green,

Dundee 05/03/2008 16:21:11
149

Have you ever heard of drinks being spiked or adverse drug/alcohol reactions?

Anyway that's not really the issue, you seem to live in a vigilante world, maybe its some religious guilt thing. If I get drunk myself I expect society in the guise of god knows who to rape me or beat the **** out of me as some kind of punsishment.

And all the time you are on this strange trip all you do is provide excuses for criminals.
110

ex-labour,

05/03/2008 16:23:23
The crime of rape should refer to the age, physical disablity,violence and power exerted. In such cases, the onus should be on the rapist to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that rape did not occur. That is, he would have to prove that there was consent. When the victime presents with physical damage - I think it safe to convict the rapist.

It is the blanket term that is the problem, and other sexual assaults should be called physical assault and the 'weapon' produced in court. Since the 'weapon' on its own is hardly capable of assault, a jury could decide whether drugs, threats etc were used.

As for false claims of rape - these should carry hefty prison sentences - enough to deter any female, or male, from accusing an innocent man.
111

,

05/03/2008 16:25:41
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112

Patrick O'Shaunnessy,

05/03/2008 16:25:59
153

The sentences for women convicted of falsely accusing rape are pitiful...they just become tearful and sorrowful, saying it was all some terrible mistake and at worst get 18 months , but much more often it's community service.
113

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 16:26:34
#152, we'll have to disagree on this one. In my view, if I went out one night and got helplessly, staggeringly drunk and someone pinched my wallet, it would be my own stupid fault for having got into such a state in the first place. And I've got no doubt whatsoever that my wife would agree!
114

Green,

Dundee 05/03/2008 16:27:30
144
Remember in most parts of the world anyone can be raped,or rape male or female. Its a criminal offence for both sexes against any sex.

Insert that fact into your thoughts on these things
115

steve52,

Kinfauns 05/03/2008 16:28:11
To claim that Scots law is the worst is a bit far fetched.

I happen to know of 4 men who were wrongly convicted of rape. One of these men was actually in a police cell in Inverness charged with being drunk and disorderly at the time the rape took place. This man was subequently sentenced to 7 years imprisonment.

If our Lord Advocate is really concerned about Scots law being fair then she should do something about those who are wrongly convicted. Currently she refuses to even reply to letters offering irrifutible evidence of police corruption, perjury and perverting the course of justice.

Is Scots law fair? Not by a long chalk.
116

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 16:31:07
#157, OK, suppose I got incapably drunk and decided to go staggering round the Calton Hill on a Saturday night, and some bloke assaulted me. I'd say that was my own fault too, for acting so stupidly. Behaving in such a way would just have been asking for trouble. Can't you see that?
117

Anthony,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 16:33:03
Patrick, you make a good point, and one I feel hasn't been highlighted enough. The criminal injuries compensation scheme, could be seen as a means of giving people a financial incentive to lie in court, to try and get someone convicted. Should the defence not be, as a matter of law, made aware of any such claim before a case proceeds? I think so. Better still - scrap the whole senseless scheme. I also agree what we need to consider if it is fair in cases of this sort, to grant anonymity to to the complainant, but not the accused.

The law going back fifteen years or so, was unfairly biased against the complainant. But now we seem to have swung to the opposite extreme, and if the Lord Advocate gets her way, it's open season on men.

What Ms Agnliolini and certain representatives of 'womens groups' don't seem to grasp, is that it is only after a fair trial, you can establish if the complainant is indeed the true victim. By assuming as a matter of course that s/he is, the accused is assumed guilty before he even approaches the court. This is gender based law. It's rampant discrimination against men, and it has to stop.
118

Doreen,

05/03/2008 16:36:27
157...The definition of rape within the law does not recognise women raping men..'Rape' is a crime carried out by males on females with the use of the penis as a weapon...any insertions into the male body constitutes sexual assault....as does any insertions into the female body....
119

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 05/03/2008 16:38:40
160....In which case we must have both parties sexual histories brought into court...including any previous convictions of sexual assaults/rape carried out by the defendant....
120

Patrick O'Shaunnessy,

05/03/2008 16:40:54
The problem of rape would be far less of an issue if women behaved more responsibly.

If young females want to go out and get drunk and wander off with blokes they hardly know, or have a tantrum and insist on walking home alone, then I wouldn't go as far as to say the deserve all they get, but if such rape victims had behaved more responsibly , drink a little less, stay with those they know, get a taxi home, etc, they wouldn't have ended up being attacked.
121

Green,

Dundee 05/03/2008 16:42:59
159

The point is (again):

you may know you got inacapably drunk, I assume you mean you did it to yourself. How does the person/criminal who preys on you, know that you did it yourself and are happy to be raped/beaten up/punished for what you did.

Intent is in the mind of the criminal.

And what gives that criminal the right to be a vigilante against drunks? I thought we had the rule of law to stop that sort of stuff and have public courts to deal with these issues.

But again, getting drunk in a public place is usually only a minor crime.... penalty should be rape?

122

Green,

Dundee 05/03/2008 16:50:01
161 and 162

Yes that's the point, in Scots law. I said in most places in the world............... There's plenty of male on male rape and female on male rape, which seems to be ignored in Scots law.
123

Miss H,

05/03/2008 16:51:50
151 Diminished responsibolity applies only in murder cases and simply being drunk would not be accepted as diminished responsibility. The argument that someone is not responsible for their actions because they are drunk is not and never has been acceptable in law and is a profoundly dangerous idea in my view.

In any case we are talking about the state of drunkenness of the victim - not the accused. The argument made by Dave is that if the victim of a crime is drunk that reduces the culpability of the accused.

That is just nonsense and there is no other way of looking at it.

124

Helene,

Ontario, Canada 05/03/2008 16:54:05
Well, this topic has brought about great discussion- exactly what's needed as a forerunner to change.
125

Miss H,

05/03/2008 16:56:23
156 No it would be their fault for stealing your wallet in the first place. Stealing is wrong. People who steal are bad. Don't make excuses for them. If they would steal from you they would steal from someone else. Perhaps an old pensioner incapable of stopping them. Try thinking about it that way.
126

Green,

Dundee 05/03/2008 16:57:42
163

The /police/prosecution service would have a field day with you if they ever found themselves taking someone who talks like you to court. Remember all these e-mails can be retrieved.

Hatred of women, feeling that they should be punished..... great stuff.


Yes this is actually textbook stuff to the police when they are looking at a suspects background.
127

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 05/03/2008 16:59:19
163...Truly shocking comment..blaming women and their 'lack of responsibility' for men raping them...again the stereotypical image of a drunk rape victim is being trawled out..when the truth is women from all age groups, all walks of life and degrees of sobriety/intoxication are raped...school girls...elderly women...joggers...women who think they are safe with someone they know...and yes women/girls who drank a lot of alcohol and are vulnerable...

I had a man tell me once...when he saw young women wearing mini skirts, "Would you look at that.. its no wonder they get raped"...

The problem of rape would be far less of an issue if rapists did not carry the same opinion as you... and if they had more respect for women in the first place...instead of seeing them as playthings or objects of hatred that they can punish with their penis...
128

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 16:59:47
Green and Miss H, do you really believe that we shouldn't take responsibility for our own actions and try to avoid getting into dangerous situations?
129

Miss H,

05/03/2008 16:59:51
169 yes I was actually wondering if Patrick was writing this stuff from jail.
130

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 05/03/2008 17:04:13
171...In that case do not let your children play in the street or let your son become a choirboy...
131

Miss H,

05/03/2008 17:04:16
171 Yes I do believe that we should take responsibility for our actions. If you get drunk and something horrible happens to you then I would hope that most people would take it as a lesson to stop drinking so much.

But.... being drunk is not a crime. Theft is. Rape is. That's the difference.

If people want to make an argument that we should make getting drunk a crime then go ahead and make that argument. But until that day in all of the scenarios you have described you did not break the law - the person who stole from you did and should not get away with breaking the law. They should answer for what they did.

You only have to answer to your conscience. And your wife.
132

Green,

Dundee 05/03/2008 17:08:31
171

You just want to set up a criminal's charter.

Don't use a cash point, you are more likely to be mugged walking away than normal, so its your fault. Don't drive on A roads they have the worst accident statistics, you have an accident........ tough.

And if you do, anyone, anyone i.e. usually the nearest man it seems can can punish you for this 'crime'of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.



Have you heard of the rule of law?
133

Green,

Dundee 05/03/2008 17:10:53
171

Brill! Ta
134

stmonan,

London 05/03/2008 17:12:45
It's amazing how the consensus view among Scots lawyers is that where Scots law handles things in one way and the rest of the entire developed world handles them differently, that just shows how clever and sensible we are.
135

Anthony,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 17:14:53
162(Doreen) - I don't believe someone's past offending history should be admitted as evidence during a criminal trial. The only exception I'd make, is if they make a positive assertion from the witness box, which is clearly contradicted by a criminal conviction. Eg, "I'd never hurt a woman", when the accused has a conviction for hitting their wife or partner. The crown should then be allowed to refer to the conviction.

This isn't tit-for-tat. Don't forget the crown have the might of the state behind them. Safeguards are in place in courts to ensure equality of arms - such as the need to prove a case beyond reasonable doubt. We can't keep negotiating these away on a one-for-one basis. particularly in a gender biased way such as this.
136

Miss H,

05/03/2008 17:19:29
178 But rape is gender biased. The only way it wouldn't be is if women started raping men at the same rate that men rape women.

137

steve52,

Kinfauns 05/03/2008 17:22:04
There is no doubt that some women and for that matters males are raped. There are of course those women wo for what ever reason, be they drunk or sober, end up in bed with a man. In the morning they reolise what they have done and scream rape. Some poor man ends up in prison. There have been several cases highlighted in recent years where such case have been taken to court and fortunatley the man walked free after the case collapsed.

Its a fine line as there are only two people involved and usually little other evidence.

Making convictions easier for any crime is not the answer as the innocent suffer.
138

Anthony,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 17:24:11
Although I take the position I do, I must admit that I cannot understand those who say it is the woman's fault if she gets drunk. It may not be advisable or very sensible. But we should all be entitled to do silly things, without it being an invitation for an attack, let alone one as vile as rape or sexual assault.
139

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 17:25:46
#174 Miss H

Interesting you should bring conscience into it. Consideration should be given to how much the effects of alcohol erodes people's inhibitions. How many people wake up in the morning to find themselves having had sex with a complete stranger. Convincing yourself it was rape is possibly easier than dealing with a sense of self-disgust.
140

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 05/03/2008 17:26:34
178...but surely, Anthony, if the sexual history of the alleged victim is relevant...even as to the how many different men fathered her children...then so is the sexual history of the accused, after all, the reality is that the alleged victim is also on trial....
141

,

05/03/2008 17:28:04
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142

Miss H,

05/03/2008 17:28:26
182 That may happen but I suggest that it could not possibly account for the fact that 96% of reported rapes do not result in conviction. I think there is something far wrong with the system itself.
143

Anthony,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 17:29:26
179(Miss H), Indeed rape is gender biased. That is why taking an unnecessarily unfair position in the way you treat the accused of this offence, compared to other offences, is by default gender biased. This logic was accepted (rightly so), in the treatment of the victims (nearly always women). So, the logic has already been accepted - it simply seems to flow beneficially in one direction.
144

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 17:30:15
#170
I think you need to calm down: I think what Patrick was really meaning was that such actions leave the individual more vunerable to such crimes (even if his language was not as 'cotton-wooled' as you would like), there was no mention of blame.
This is where I think there is a huge misconception: noone blames an individual for rape, even though that same survey of 23% "yes" vote brought up,it is an issue of responsibility:
In an ideal world everyone would wander around care free, but it's not, therefore it's always wise to take precautions such as avoid dark alleys etc.
This is what I think the individuals who returned a "yes" were really meaning, at least I hope so.
145

Miss H,

05/03/2008 17:30:16
184 I suggest this is a good time for people to make such feelings known.
146

Anthony,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 17:32:55
(183) Doreen, under current Scots law the sexual history of the complainant isn't admissable, but the history of the accused is. So it's precisely the other way round. I believe both should be admissible, where they can be shown to be relevent, but not otherwise.
147

Miss H,

05/03/2008 17:33:04
187 Au contraire - he puts the blame firmly on women. Rape would not be such a problem if women didn't go out, drink, have tantrums, walk down streets and so on....
148

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 17:41:30
#190
No, if they took more precautions then they wouldn't leave themselves so exposed, it is not an issue of blame. It's looking after yourself and taking relevant precautions to avoid leaving yourself in a situation that makes you an easy target:
For the same reason I wouldn't walk through somewhere like Niddrie or Craigmillar at night: I don't want to take that chance some jakey takes a dislking to me and does me one...
149

popeye,

Daventry 05/03/2008 17:41:48
First of all someone needs to define the degree of rape.There can be a violent attack which deserves to be punished severely,then there is a drunken fumble,where the woman is to drunk to say no,and the man is to drunk to hear anything.The later which is regretted the next day and can result in a life sentence for the man,and a big pay out for the woman,is wrong.The reason for the low conviction rate is because we have lost confidence in the law.
150

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 05/03/2008 17:43:04
187...and I think you need to open up your eyes to opinions like these that still pervade in our society...It is pretty evident from the content of his post as to where he was implying blame lay....in fact it is transparent...

189...Anthony, it may be inadmissable but it is still brought up as the defence will always aim to bring a cloud of uncertainty over a woman's character.. her sexual history etc...no?

Both should be admissible... but if a man has a history of convictions for sexual assaults or rape then I feel that these should be admissible also...
151

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 17:45:57
#185 Miss H

I don't think it's fair to blame the rules of evidence if there is a significant 'sifting' of cases between the reporting and decision to prosecute stage. The Scottish Crime Recording Standard requires the poice to record offences as seen by the complainer. If a reported rape is found to be the result of a woman worrying that a husband/partner should find out she has had sex or, indeed, malicious, it is still recorded as a rape. You may deny this, but ask any detective who specialises in this field and he/she will tell you that the numbers of genuine rapes are equalled if not surpassed by the non-genuine.
152

Miss H,

05/03/2008 17:46:23
186 Come on - if everything was hunky dorey with the system we have now there would not be such a drive for reform.

It is not a question of simply saying more accused must be found guilty. There are a whole range of issues that are going to be looked at. It may well be that fewer men get charged with rape as a consequence of whatever reforms are introduced.

But if we get a proper statutory definition of rape and/or sexual assault as well as a statutory definition of what constitutes consensual sex and what does not then that will put us on a level footing with the rest of the modern world will it not?
153

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05/03/2008 17:47:21
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154

,

05/03/2008 17:47:54
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155

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 17:50:13
#192 Popeye

That's ridiculous. There should be no degrees of rape. What sort of man would have sex with a woman who is so drunk that she is incapable of giving consent? Of course that's rape, as much so as a man jumping out on a woman jogger and dragging her into some bushes.
156

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05/03/2008 17:51:11
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157

Miss H,

05/03/2008 17:52:17
194 So you are sticking by the position that 96% of women who report rape are lying?

Does that seem to you to be remotely credible?
158

Miss H,

05/03/2008 17:54:42
197 I don't disagree with you but I still think the laws on rape need to be modernised.
159

,

05/03/2008 18:00:31
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160

Thomas J,

Dunfermline 05/03/2008 18:02:06
Headline says "Scots rape laws worst in the world" with a photo of Elish Angiolini speaking which implies that she said this.

Angiolini is quoted in the article as follows: "Ms Angiolini told a Rape Crisis Scotland conference that the country's rape laws were "among the most restrictive in the western world".

Among the most restrictive in the western world is not the same as worst in the world. Why sensationalise such a serious topic. The Scotsman is on a par with the Sun for headline grabbing.
161

popeye,

Daventry 05/03/2008 18:04:18
198 draco.
If you can't see the difference between a drunken fumble,and a serious violent attack on a woman,you are the one who is ridiculous.and also very inexperienced.
162

ex-labour,

05/03/2008 18:10:36
162 Doreen, - Doreen if I am assaulted or robbed, I am not asked in court about any history of assaults or robberies that I have reported.

A woman's sexual history should never be brought up at all - Who she has slept with is nothing to do with being attacked and raped. If she has previously accused someone of rape, this should be made known, as it may be relevant. If the accused has a history of rape or accusations of rape, these should be be also be made known.
163

Green,

Dundee 05/03/2008 18:11:36
194 Draco
', but ask any detective who specialises in this field and he/she will tell you that the numbers of genuine rapes are equalled if not surpassed by the non-genuine.'

Recent academic research has indeed shown that detectives believe these myths. When asked what proportions of rape allegations are untrue, the police estimate about 30%.

The academic community and the police researchers think false allegations of rape are no more common than complaints in any other type of case, and that is about 3%, yes 3%such as caiming to have something stolen for spite or to claim on the insurance.

This ingrained anti-woman bias is one of the things the beterr police departments are trying to deal with by better training of police, who have a terrible sexist history (and are just as likely to peddle myths as the rest of us).

Go look the research up, it was reported in the better newspapers in the last 6 months, and be public sprited, tell all your police friends!

More fact, less myth and prejudice towards women.
164

brettgallacher,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 18:12:28
rape is dreadful crime but you now cant just hang someone without due process of law or all that will happen jails will be full of innocent people at no time is she blaming the false allegations made by woman that just want to punish someone they dont like its against the law to have a law for only woman the problem may lie in the fact because of the nature of the crime plus the woman may know the cretin who commits this crime they are scared to speak up plus the media dont help by naming the man in all alleged rape cases
165

,

05/03/2008 18:12:57
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166

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 18:13:17
#204 popeye

And you've obviously got a classy love life, consisting of one or both of you being so drunk as to be unable to speak. It must lead to some really memorable, sensual evenings under the stars!!
167

ex-labour,

05/03/2008 18:14:35
144 Urban Guerrilla, Being drunk and robbed of your wallet is a damn sight different to being drunk and having a foreign object inserted into your body.

If you went home with a knife sticking out your back, while you were drunk, would your wife still it was your own fault?


168

brettgallacher,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 18:14:59
plus the law states quite clearly the jury must not make their mind just because the accussed has commited other crimes each and every person is entitled to fair not biased justice
169

brettgallacher,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 18:16:24
ex labour if i went home and told my wife i had my wallet stolen she would be the one sticking a knife in me
170

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 18:18:20
#206 Green

The academic community and police researchers aren't the ones dealing with complainers at the sharp end. And I think you need to come into the 21st century. Many of the detectives dealing with crimes of this nature are women. Or have they just sold out so they can one of the boys?
171

Green,

Dundee 05/03/2008 18:22:45
212 brettgallacher

No-one is interested in your fictional(?) private life. This is a serious discussion about crime.
172

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2008 18:22:50
Don't think it is right that Angiolini should play the numbers game with regard to the law. It smacks of wanting to massage statistics for the sake of statistics.

To the man who was robbed of £20 I would suggest he keeps his money elsewhere, cuts a hole in his pocket and places his member in it. That way he could get the benefit of a female dip.
173

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 18:25:30
#200 Miss H

No, of course not. What I'm saying is, a surprising number of reported rapes don't get as far as being referred to the PF. After that a number will be assessed by the PF and he/she will decide there is insufficient evidence to proceed to trial (and here, yes, possibly guilty men get away with it) Then, when it does get to trial, many juries find it difficult to convict beyond all reasonable doubt (when, again, some guilty men may get away with it). The conviction rate looks bad in realtion to reported rapes. All I'm asking is to know what % of cases that come to trial result in guilty verdicts. Then there may be less reason to criticise the rules of evidence followed at trial.
174

Green,

05/03/2008 18:29:04
213 Draco

One. Yes that's the problem, lots of women/women police believe these myths as well. Or are women getting a huge vote of confidence from you, women are perfect?

Two 'The academic community and police researchers aren't the ones dealing with complainers at the sharp end.'

There goes all the crimminology research and police/university depts in the world. That's what research does, goes and finds out the facts.

I assume you are not going to look up the research and get educated.
175

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 18:37:42
# 217 Green

Always ready to get educated, old boy. You point me to the academic research that shows me that only 3 out 0f 100 reported rapes in Scotland are not genuine and I shall, willingly, stand corrected. Like I say I'd rather believe an experienced, dedicated, detective, male or female, who has experience of dealing with complainers at first hand.
176

Green,

Dundee 05/03/2008 18:44:46
Draco,
no point talking to you you are not listening

For all those who are interested in fact on this subject a good start is

Rape: A History from 1860 to the Present (Hardcover)
by Prof. J. Bourke (2007) one of the countries leading academics.(I declare no financial interest.

Its certainly in Glasgow Library.

That's all, bye
177

Miss H,

05/03/2008 18:54:47
218 I have no idea how many are genuine but clearly 96 out of 100 reports cannot be false.

If you say that the genuine reports are matched by false reports then what do we have.

We have a 4% conviction rate so we can assume they were genuine reports. Say double that number were genuone to account for cases which were real but did not make it to court.

So what happened to the rest? If only 8% of reports are false to match the 8% we hypothesise as genuine then what about the other 84%.

I'm not looking for a statistical debate incidentally because these figures don't really mean anything other than to illustrate the point. The problem of the mis-match between reported rapes and convictions cannot actually be accounted for by any of the explanations offered.

It is clearly a systemic problem.
178

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2008 19:35:14
Miss H. Various. You appear to have a bee in your bonnet about this which goes beyond the rational. Now you are suggesting that 95% of women must be right.

I fear you are not using rational argument.
179

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 05/03/2008 19:45:24
205...I am in agreement with you on that...however the reality is that it will always be brought up in court and I see no way of the law ever changing that..

As far as police handling of rape claims are concerned...how about constables describing women reporting rape as G.F.I or Gagging For It..due to their mode of dress at the time of the alleged assault?...
180

shire,

Turriff 05/03/2008 19:52:16
The problem with the Law is that it also works in the Rapists favour. If a female is sexually assaulted by her employer she needs another person to come forward saying it happend to her as well or the rapist gets away scot free. You have to have a witness to get a conviction
181

 Ayrshire Scot™,

05/03/2008 19:54:09
62. Miss H

thanks. I had assumed you meant something along the lines of elevating the alleged victim's testimony over the alleged rapist. However, the points you make about allowing testimony from other victims makes sense, and hadn't occurred to me.

But would you then also allow the sexual history of the victum to be evidence (I am not sure, is this still allowed anyway) - seems to be allowing allegations from other victims (if they had complained, they would be subject of a charge/ trial - i fnot, why allow them to testify ?) but dissallowing sexual history of victim - in a amjority of rape cases intercourse is not denied, consent is the question.

182

popeye,

Daventry 05/03/2008 19:55:05
Draco
Great love life mate,have you ever met my girl friend Olive Oil?very sensual,under the stars,or under the table,it's all the same to her.
goodnight.
183

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2008 20:04:59
Even my ex wife and the mother of my second first born agrees with my new girl friend, Pam O' Mahon.

Cheap and cheerful without the emotional baggage.
184

Miss H,

05/03/2008 20:16:31
221 No I am not. I am suggesting that 96% of people (not necessarily women) who report rape are not likely to be wrong.

If I have a bee in my bonnet about anything it is about sloppy arguments such as yours.
185

Anthony,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 20:37:07
I cannot accept that 96% of people reporting these crimes are making it up either. It is deeply disturbing.The problem is picking out the ones that aren't genuine. Lord McCluskey writing for this paper, expressed the view than in his own opinion, a reasonable percentage of men acquited of rape charges, were indeed innocent - of rape, in terms of the cases he heard when a judge. Lord McCluskey is not just a very fine legal mind, but was also noted as a rather worldly wise judge. It is just such a difficult crime to prove, and I can understand the anger of women. But gender based law which is what the Lord Advocate is suggesting, cannot be the way to go in any sensible pluralistic society. We need to rack our brains to find a solution to this. Maybe introducing second degree rape, as opposed to sliding down to sexual assault? Let's talk folks. Let's not allow the venomists on one side, and the mysogonists on the other, to turn the genders against each other.
186

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 20:38:33
#210, she'd certainly say I'd contributed to it by becoming incapably drunk in a public place. She'd say that to do so was asking for trouble, and I'd agree with her. If I'd behaved responsibly and not got incapably drunk, I wouldn't have got a knife in my back.
187

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2008 20:39:29
227, Miss H. Are you suggesting that you are happy with any change in the law which would change the statistics of convictions in an upward spiral?

A rape of the law?
188

Boab,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 20:50:20
I've yet to read an Amnesty International report on all the falsely accused rapists in UK jails but people always go on about 'malicious accusations'. Perhaps someone would like to provide a link to a single instance of a British man serving time due a malicious accusation? Just one?

Personally I think men should have to prove innocence, but there you go.
189

Miss H,

05/03/2008 20:51:52
230 No what I am suggesting is that there is a problem when 96% of reported crimes result in no conviction. It is not credible to believe that all 96% of the people who reported that crime were just making it up. Even making allowances for the fact that the police obviously cannot arrest every perpetrator (although rape victims are more likely to know their attacker than most victims of crime)it is still a very unsatisfactory situation which indicates there is a problem that needs to be fixed.
190

Pilrig.,

Livingston 05/03/2008 22:46:46
163 - (reprise) it's the wicked hussies to blame for leading the poor saps astray. Ban alchol for women !
191

Pilrig.,

Livingston 05/03/2008 22:50:45
181 - Jesus Christ - a bit of common sense !
192

Green,

06/03/2008 00:43:01
30 Jock

227, Miss H. Are you suggesting that you are happy with any change in the law which would change the statistics of convictions in an upward spiral?

A rape of the law?
193

Green,

Dundee 06/03/2008 01:01:46
230 Jock
227, Miss H. Are you suggesting that you are happy with any change in the law which would change the statistics of convictions in an upward spiral?

Well I'm Green and I would be delighted to see most of the criminals in our country punished and the figures can't exactly go down can they?


Quote Prof. J. Bourne
Rape myths are strategies by which less powerful members of a community could (are still) ed. be even further marginalised. As power regimes in society more generally shifted, so did the rhetoric of false accusations…….with fears about accusations by children and working class women gradually giving way to panic over the ‘bolshy’ women’s movement.

These rape myths as they permeated society, demonstrate the immense cultural sympathy for the abuser. By creating a trauma aesthetic, sorting the criminals, bystanders and victims into positions of hierarchy, abusers are able to justify inflicting pain. Just as the pitiless actions of some perpetrators (e.g.) boyfriends are presented as more ‘comprehensible’ than others, victims too are sorted into a hierarchy of suffering… e.g. older women did not suffer as much from rape as other women. Thus the rapist is judged by the moral status of his victim.

page 48


194

MichScot,

USA 06/03/2008 04:43:00
If a guy did to a guy what is done in rape--as far as it's possible--and also the forcing, battering. or whatever in the different situations, would there not be a different view of the crime? If these things were done to a MAN, there would definitely be a strong law against it.
195

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 06/03/2008 04:55:09
#16 You and a number of others obviously have difficulty with english comprehension. The US reference was only explaining some of the reasons for varying rape conviction figures due to some extreme definitions of rape. Rape is non-consensual penetration. A grope is a sexual assault. A big difference. Many rapes go unreported because of the added trauma of the court cases in countries where there are special laws in dealing with such cases. Blaming women for having a couple drinks is the wrong answer. Blame the blokes whose brain descends to their knob after a couple of drinks and can't take NO for an answer. If the burden of proof becomes so great that courts keep throwing out rape cases you run the risk of women taking the law into their own hands. When a women stands up in court and says "He raped me. This court let him loose so I blew a hole in his lower spine so that he never gets it up again" there will be such an outcry the law will be changed in a month.
196

MichScot,

USA 06/03/2008 05:04:30
A girl in my area was kidnapped from the grocery store parking lot in broad daylight, raped, beaten, and left for dead. Since it's cold here in January, you may rest assured that there was very little skin showing to call her a wanton hussie! Especially since she is VERY nice...
It took her months to get out of the hospital. And that doesn't even address the emotional scars she still suffers.

Men (or shall I say perpetrators?) are pretty low if they blame someone else for their lack of control. Get real--you are responsible for your own actions!
197

Anthony,

Glasgow 06/03/2008 20:23:45
Clarry (236), Elish isn't brilliant. She's been a disaster for the role of Lord Advocate, and many of her blunders are yet to catch up. She has also turned what is supposed to be an impartial law officer role - the head of prosecutions in Scotland no less, into a political pantomine. She's playing the feminist card to hide her own poor performance. That's why she's investing more into PR than into convicting crooks. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by your comment directed at me personally, but I sincerely hope it doesn't mean what I think it does.
198

Anthony,

Glasgow 06/03/2008 20:34:57
Lest I'm misunderstood, I'll add that I could easily rhyme half-a-dozen women off the top of my head, who are brilliant legal minds, and would have made excellent Lord Advocates. They would also have insisted on the impartiality of the role, and would have refused to pander the law to accomodate the last political administration though. Hence why they would never have been considered, even though they were clearly better qualified than Ms Angiolini for first the Solicitor General's role, and then the Lord Advocate's.
199

gaffer,

Kamloops 07/03/2008 05:01:19
Rape laws , violence laws, there are laws but because of the weakness of the judges who could put some very serious penalties on the criminals it just isnt there , you can see the frustrations on the arresting police because of this .
there s too many people out there who advocate freedom of their rights , discrimination etc and no politician seems to have the b-lls to stand up say enough is enough
200

Anthony,

Glasgow 07/03/2008 16:49:37
(246) Clarry - You chastice me for judging Ms Angiolini on her performance as Lord Advoate, because I don't know her personally. But this isn't an essential requirement. You then make personalised assertions about me as a person and a human being, without (I assume), knowing me. This would be an essential requirement. I don't think there is any need to comment further; other than to note, that it's nice to see the Lord Advocate is surrounding herself with those with a firm grasp of logic. Yep, I probably could do with shedding some poundage. But should we judge people by their physique and how well they conform to society's stereotypes? Besides, I quite liked the fat controllor off of Ivor the Engine. At least he could keep things on the rails.
201

Anthony,

Glasgow 10/03/2008 15:33:29
There's no doubt that the LA has a personal following, largely from the small but highly vocal 'revenge' wing of the femanist movement. I don't think it will be long before we see 'I (love heart) Elish' T-Shirts being worn by ample women with varied facial piercings outside courts, with burning effigies of men about to be tried. But is this what the LA role is supposed to be about? I think not. You say (249)that it is the LA's job to address issues of gender equality. Yes and no. It's the job of everyone in a position of power, to oppose unlawful discrimination wherever it's encountered. But it's not, most certainly not, the role of the LA to charge off on political crusades, even to the point of apparently forgetting the primary function of their role.

I'm sure Ms Angliolini is a decent person with all the attributes you mention. I don't accept that she is a superb lawyer though. I have her down as a fair to middeling one, but who has advanced largely due to her political prowess combined with admittedly very strong administrator ability and top notch interpersonal skills.
202

Anthony,

Glasgow 13/03/2008 10:53:32
Clarry, I had no intention of posting further on this topic, but I can't allow some of the things you said to go. You throw lots of derogatory adjectives at me. None as far as I can see have any basis in anything I've posted, let alone being justified. You accuse me of being a coward. Of actually endorsing rape, wife abuse and the beatings of women (254). You have also previously accused me of 'abusing a woman' because I disagreed with the LA on a point of policy.

I don't hold any of these views, and have never abused any other poster or person in any of my postings to these boards, or anywhere else for that matter. Hence why I have never had a post removed. Contrast this with yourself, who on this one string alone, have had at least two posts removed for abusive language and over-the-top claims. You are therefore, guilty of the very thing you wrongly accuse me of.

Can you not see the irony in this, and how you have just shot your own and the LA's argument in the foot? Here you are, a woman, making false allegations against me, a man, largely on the basis of my gender and political views. More, you have levelled an unfair untrue and unfounded allegation of abuse. You are living proof if any were needed, of why the LA must not get her way, and men should not be convicted of rape without corroboration, and purely on the word of the complainant, because she is usually a woman. Some woman, as with some men, are nutters. Some would abuse this priviledge. Some consider, as you have demonstrated, as a man disagreeing with a woman, as "abuse".

The fact that the LA is drawing such support from people holding your extremist sexist opinions, based on sheer male-hate, I think says it all. She has taken the role of LA into territory it doesn't belong.
203

Anthony,

Glasgow 14/03/2008 12:21:09
Just more personal insults - no substance - no attempt to engage in debate, or address the serious points I made. There are no grounds at all for terming me a woman hater - whilst you more or less concede that you hate men. What I've said in my posts are true. You on the other hand are seriously confused. You state the Solicitor General's is a political post - nonsense. Why not for a change actually read what I wrote, and reply to the points? Just lots of false allegations - and again you are fond of the "abuse" word - sprayed liberally whenever you can't think of a proper response.

Keep posting please Clarry! You are a living example of why men should not be discriminated against, by being sent to prison on nothing more than a statement by someone else, simply because she is a woman, and he is a man. You are actual proof of the danger of passing such a provision.
204

Anthony,

Glasgow 15/03/2008 14:41:43
Clarry - you're beginning to sound like Dr Evil. What an incomprehensible outpouring! I was going to suggest that your post be removed (like many of your others have already been), but I think it should stay. It's clearly a cathartic release for you, and demonstrates to anyone with the inclination (and patience)to read it, that you are clearly one mixed-up kid. You threaten me with "equality laws" which you don't even understand. The difference between even civil and criminal laws seem to escape you. You stated in an earlier post that you were female, and now state that you're not - each to their own, and good luck Clarry.

I hope someone shows these posts to politicians - that way they can see first hand the types of people who support the LA's objectives, and their 'hate-mail' motives for doing so.
205

Anthony,

Glasgow 16/03/2008 12:51:31
Okaaay - moving quickly along...

 

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