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Neck and neck again in race for White House

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Published Date: 06 September 2008
JOHN McCain is again level in the polls with his Democratic rival, Barack Obama, whose eight-point lead last weekend has evaporated.
A CBS poll yesterday put support for both candidates in the race to the White House at 42 per cent. The poll was conducted before Mr McCain's speech to his party convention, and appears to show that the clear lead shown last weekend after Mr Obama wooed the Democratic party faithful at the Denver convention has vanished, with the "not sures" now dominating.

When the conventions started, polls found voters split 47-47 per cent between the candidates. After two weeks of wall-to-wall publicity, support is still evenly split, but now at 42-42 per cent, with a whopping 16 per cent of voters wondering whether either man can get to grips with the country bogged down in a faraway war and teetering on the edge of recession.

"He's no Sarah Palin," was the consensus among Republicans streaming out of their party's convention after Mr McCain's underwhelming speech.

On Thursday, Mrs Palin, who was a surprise choice for the vice-presidential nomination, wowed the convention with a blistering speech in which she described herself as "a pitbull" .

And, in a move that is likely to further bolster her appeal with the right, it emerged last night that Mrs Palin's oldest son, Track, 19, is to serve in Iraq. Beau Biden, the son of Democratic vice-presidential candidate Joe Biden, is also set to serve in the country.

Traditionally, convention speeches let US presidential candidates make a pitch to the nation, but Mr McCain's efforts seemed rambling and incoherent.

He based his appeal on his time as a fighter pilot and prisoner of war in North Vietnam, telling voters: "I fell in love with my country when I was a prisoner in someone else's."

As a result, he said, his would be a non-ideological presidency aimed at problem-solving. "Again and again I've worked with members of both parties to fix problems," he said. "That's how I will govern as president."

But that failed to give voters a clear idea of where he stands on any of the key issues. "McCain took a scattershot approach that had me looking for themes," moaned Michael Goodwin, a New York Daily News columnist. "I didn't find any."

The 72-year-old senator also promised that he would clean up a rotten political establishment, saying: "Let me offer an advance warning to the old, big-spending, do-nothing, me-first-country-second Washington crowd: change is coming."

Mr McCain's main problem is that, after 26 years in the Senate, he is part of that establishment, currently run by a Republican president.

Mr McCain has found himself boxed in by the contradictions that threaten to wreck his campaign. First, he has to position himself as different from George Bush, the most unpopular president in recent times, but not lose core Republican support. Second, he has to appeal to the right wing and the centrist swing voters in the party.

Republican conservatives demanded, as the price of their support, that Mr McCain back them in opposing abortion, in demanding a round-up of illegal immigrants and in promising that creationist biology will be taught in schools.

But Mr McCain dare not mention these policies for fear of alienating the swing voters, so none was mentioned in his 50-minute speech. The few policies he felt able to articulate included promises to give parents "choice" in their children's schooling and support for a dramatic energy programme to expand oil drilling in the United States and invest in nuclear power.


The full article contains 615 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 September 2008 11:34 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: US elections
 
1

Resolutions,

06/09/2008 00:28:22
Well his annual 'party' is just over and folks are intrigued by the running mate- so you would expect things to even up a bit.

Once the campaigns are running full blast, we'll be even sicker of them than we are now.
2

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 06/09/2008 00:36:22
But, most Americans know how often he has crossed party lines to get things done. He would not be called a maverick if he was part of the establishment.
The reporter can spin this anyway he wants, but more people watched McCain and Palin that Barak Obama.
I notice that he also left out the fact one of the McCain sons is just back from Iraq, and another is in the Naval Academy, where when he graduates, he must give 5 years of service (if things haven't changed since I went to school).
3

JFD HIBEE,

san francisco 06/09/2008 01:02:59
MR STEPHEN SHOULD ALSO NOTE THAT JOE BIDEN HAS BEEN PART OF THE WASHINGTON ESTABLISHMENT LONGER THAN Mc CAIN.
4

Scullion,

Canada 06/09/2008 01:29:50
I certainly do think that the fact that McCain's son is just back from service and Palin's is just going in is a real boon for the Republicans. However, GH Bush's WWII heroics, his victory in Desert Storm and the fall of communism didn't help him against a man who never served because the American people wanted jobs in a poor economy. The same is true today. If Obama hammers at the economic downturn under the Republicans, the all important rust belt will respond. McCain's self admitted igorance of economics may be the sword he has to fall upon.
5

,

06/09/2008 01:47:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

SouthernGent,

06/09/2008 01:52:48
#4
The problem is that Obamas Tax plan will be the final nail in the economy's coffin.
7

Scullion,

Canada 06/09/2008 01:58:20
#5 Like the captain of the ship, it is the president who will answer for any and all failures in his administration. Any president who blames a cabinet member is a coward-plus, he picked him/her for the post.
8

,

06/09/2008 02:03:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

2dogs in D.C.,

06/09/2008 02:11:56
#8-Hi,HMC.Harry-Remember "Brownie"? And what ever happened to Rumsfeld? Roll on November.
10

Reekin' Lum,

06/09/2008 02:35:18
The above "reporter" states: "Traditionally, convention speeches let US presidential candidates make a pitch to the nation, but Mr McCain's efforts seemed rambling and incoherent. "
He then cites a New York Post columnist :"McCain took a scattershot approach that had me looking for themes," moaned Michael Goodwin, a New York Daily News columnist. "I didn't find any."
"Moaned"??? the columnist is a leftwinger in Obama's camp. That's it then for a balanced view?

The above pathetic article should trigger an investigation as to what this Scotsman reporter (Chris Stephens ) is doing in the US to start with, his political leanings, which are obviously totally biased and whby is he reporting in this fashion?. Cannot this newspaper get a reporter who can report the facts without the slant? ( either in this country of the US)???
Stephens, you're not from the country so try and get it right. You people who presume to have the truth, whose opinions are beyond reproach, lose half your audience when those who actually know will no longer heed your prejudices- look at Craig Ferguson on his Late Late Show and his Bush and Republican bashing-who lost half his audience when he would come out with his daily/nightly idiocy, negating a generally very intelligent show.



11

Reekin' Lum,

06/09/2008 02:40:56
"Many were left distinctly underwhelmed by the presidential candidate's convention speech "

More claptrap from Mr. Stephens who I would dearly liker to meet since he's reporting from New York.

Since I am also in New York, I'mk sure we can arrange something.

I also think we need an explanation from the Scotsman as to why their rules on unbiased reporting were flaunted and the Editor permitted the above travesty to be printed.
12

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 06/09/2008 03:25:00
I agree with #10 &11, Reekin' Lum.

Mr Stephen needs to get away from his left-wing press clique and meet some real American people for a change.

At least he refrained from crawling in the gutter with the psychopathic bloggers this time.
13

Carolyn 1,

06/09/2008 03:32:58
Here's a good read (better than Chris Stephen) comparing Palin with the UK politicians:

WHY, why, why can’t WE have a Sarah Palin?
"A week ago few in Britain had heard of Palin.

Today, the moose-huntin’ mom is the most talked-about woman in the world.

And with good reason.

Her sensational performance at the Republican convention may turn out to be the moment the White House slipped from Barack Obama’s grasp.

She was an electrifying mix of passion, energy, optimism and plain speaking. The exact opposite of the slippery, two-faced, depressing bunch of third-raters who parade on our Westminster stage. "......

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/columnists/fergus_shanahan/article1647092.ece
14

Team Scotland,

FC UK No! 06/09/2008 03:39:49
If the Republicans win and McCain dies in office, the idea of Palin having all our futures in her hands is terrifying. She is plainly irrational, promoting creationism and ignoring climate science. Unfortunately unlike Bush she will not know her place. She is arrogant enough to think she is clever and the backroom boys will fail to keep her in her cage.
15

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 06/09/2008 03:57:46
The Republicans will win the White House. Bet on it.

Irrational??Really?? because she stands by her family. Apparently loves her husband. Works. Has been elected Governor...All by age forty four.

She hunts and is super foxy..The lefty twits just can't stand it..Yahoo...her against Wendy Salamander..What a Joke.

Yahoo..

16

Pender Paul,

Pender Island 06/09/2008 04:25:44
What really sickens me is the number of correspondents who take it upon themselves to take cheap shots at the left wing of politics. And yet these same folks are the "love thy neighbour as thyself" right wing Christians who spend countless hours each week on their collective knees praying for love and understanding. What a lot of clap-trap. Bad cess to all of them. Don't you right wingers realize how you are being manipulated by big business (the same folks that have boosted fuel prices through the ceiling), have moved industry off-shore and have gouged you at the teller's wicket, etc., etc.? Palin is as phony as a three dollar bill--I'd much prefer to see her brother Michael running for office.
17

Wally,

By THe Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 06/09/2008 04:41:59
The Gallup Poll done on the same day had Obama up by 5. The Zogby poll done on same day had Obama up by 2. But I admit that McCain has been closing the margin. and this poll was taken before McCain's speech, maybe he'll get a bounce.
18

Josiecamp,

San Francisco 06/09/2008 05:12:30
One hour ago I finished watching and listning to Jim Leher's report on PBS here in our city. I don't base my life on Polls but since it is the premise of the above article, I can state that PB reports that Obama Barakis eleven points ahead of John McCain overall, eight points ahead on the economy and even on defence and security. The United States is a para-militaristic establishment (just like pre-WW2 Germany) where spending on military industries is parammount to our plans for world domination and on this issue John McCain is leaing and diverting from the real issues facing our nation, where we still have over Fifty Million denied Health-care insurance and one hundred and twenty million below the poverty level. Unfortunately we Americans wear our hearts on our sleeves and do not bring our Politicians to task on the real issues. It is just passed 9:00pm here so I will go and listen to Bill Moyers and return to sanity.
19

Mallory,

Edinburgh 06/09/2008 05:18:45
Reekin Lum #11

What makes you think that the Scotsman, like the BBC, has any rules on unbiased reporting?

Our experience here in the UK is that both are filled with bias over the selection of topics to report and the content of that reporting.

At least the internet gives us the opportunity to research all points of view and watch full speeches from the participants in the US Election.

Take a look at the links displayed More US Elections column on the right at the top of this page. The trivia reflects the desperate lines of Democrat attack.

Best comment heard so far - She (Palin) combines the grace of Jacqui Kennedy with the iron determination of Margaret Thatcher.
20

Let's have the truth,

In a bomb shelter 06/09/2008 05:19:02
Sadly, when the push comes to the push, even though they know it's wrong, white people will not vote for Obama.
21

Jock Smith,

Waukesha 06/09/2008 05:23:23
As a new USA citizen and therefore a first time voter, I find myself drawn to the Republican party over the democrats. Having said that, I could never vote for a party that would remove a woman's right to choose, and McCain and his pitbull have said over and over, that abortion is top of their agenda.
I feel, unless they change their stance on this, the Republican party will lose millions of votes, especially from women.
I will wait and see if they change their stance then I will decide.
22

Wolf1957,

Normally NC, USA (Currently Afghanistan) 06/09/2008 05:34:21
Again Chris Stephens demonstrates his complete ignorance of Americans and American politics, or flagrant bias.

#4 Scullion: "If Obama hammers at the economic downturn under the Republicans, the all important rust belt will respond. McCain's self admitted igorance of economics may be the sword he has to fall upon."

The downturn that has occurred since the Democrats took control of Congress, you should add. Given that so many "experts" can't seem to economics right, I don't think people will hold that against McCain. He's not talking about raising taxes, Obama is.

With Palin on the ticket, Obama will not gain a single Southern state. The only time the Dems have been able to win the White House in the last 30 years is when they can pick off a few Southern states. The South is more important electorally than the rust belt. If Obama can't split the Southern block, he will lose. Period.
23

Geoff,

sa 06/09/2008 07:25:31
In general I am fascinated by how drawn out these campaigns are-the amount of time and money spent is staggering. I like both Obama and McCain-both appeal for different reasons so i am not surprised that the race is neck and neck thus far. An Obama win would be an incredible victory for non-racialism-a predominantly white america electing a black president would also hopefully send a powerful message to our race obsessed governmemnt in south africa. McCain comes across as a wiser older head and anyone who experienced the horror of a Vietnam prison camp and survived has to be a toughie deserving of our admiration.
24

Geoff,

sa 06/09/2008 07:33:28
Also,and no offence to the yanks, but the conventions are such cheap and shallow theatre-all baubles and glitter and balloons. Are the american electorate really of such a low mentality that they need all those corny theatrics to help them decide on who should be President. The one that really nauseates me (at which Hillary clinton is a master)is the sudden widening of the eyes and pointing as they feign surprise at seeing an old friend in the audience-such a warm human touch.
25

Goring Heath,

Middle Rain Forest 06/09/2008 07:59:25
I don't expect the Scotsman to fire this 'reporter' for ignorance, because he clearly makes things up out of whole cloth. But I don't expect him to be fired for fabrication, either, because he's so blatantly ignorant. So, if he stays on at The Scotsman, what does it say for Johnston Press? It says they want to become more like the BBC.
26

Richardinho,

06/09/2008 08:34:11
'Republican conservatives demanded, as the price of their support, that Mr McCain back them in opposing abortion, in demanding a round-up of illegal immigrants and in promising that creationist biology will be taught in schools.'

McCain and Obama are Tweedle-dum and tweedle-dee as far as I'm concerned, but if McCain really intends to introduce the teaching of 'Creationist biology' psuedo science in schools, that's enough to make me hope that he doesn't get into power.
27

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 06/09/2008 08:48:00
This 'reporter' seems to me like a fully paid-up member of the liberal middle-class angst club who dominate the media here. For them, all Obama needed to be the perfect choice for President was to be black. Then they can all assuage their guilt at being born white and reasonably well off by backing your man. See me, see how worthy and 'inclusive' I am? I remember a few months ago when Obama first emerged as a possible contender. Sarah Smith and Jon Snow on Channel 4 were having a mutual org*sm session together at the prospect of a black man in the White House. He could have been Jack the Ripper for all they knew of him but, hey, he's black, what more can you ask for? Patronising sods.
28

gus1940,

Edinburgh 06/09/2008 09:04:42
So The Georgia War Dividend of scaring the gullible US electorate by orchestrating the crisis is paying off for the Republicans.
29

LowNote,

North Berwick 06/09/2008 09:11:36
As an American living in Scotland, I have to agree that this article is a pathetic piece of reporting--shallow, biased and lacking substance. Can't the Scotsman get a higher quality reporter on this beat? Given the power of the U.S. and its close relationship with Scotland and the U.K., this would seem to be the most important reporting job outside of this country.
30

Pilrig.,

Livingston 06/09/2008 09:23:56
1 - yep, can't they hold the election next week so we are all spared this bore-athon ?
31

Pilrig.,

Livingston 06/09/2008 09:35:07
15 - as Mt Spock would say "she's illogical"
She's pro-life but loves killing animals - where's the rationality in that ?
She's a creationist - enuf said !
And it was reported when she was town mayor she planned to ban certain books from the town's libary. The librarian objected and was sacked, but only reinstated when the townsfolk kicked up a fuss.
I suspect "Origin of Species" was one of the books on Palin's hit-list. Instead, of banning books she should read 'em. Go for it Sarah - read Joyce's "Ulysses" and Burgess's "A Clockwork Orange" and liberate yer mind !
32

drunken proffet,

Tassy 06/09/2008 09:48:13
Being an outsider looking in, I sometimes wonder if the American Democratic system is in fact a game show, promoted by the powers that be to keep the natives happy. I could be wrong, however I would say that in Australia for a fraction of the cost we appear to have the same standard of politicians as the USA. I also admit that the USA has been instrumental in introducing democracy to the rest of the world. Would it be too much to ask that they practice what they preach. You have two presidential candidates who achieved their positions through the expenditure of vast sums of money. Is it not about time that the political parties promoted ability and integrity which you appear to have with your existing canditates, without spending the money. Is it so difficult to achieve that in the USA. I for one would feel more confident in seeing a President elected for his ability and integrity rather than his assets, and I believe Australia is on your side.
33

Electric Hermit,

06/09/2008 10:26:09
"creationist biology"

What on Earth would that be? Biology is a science. Creationism is a silly superstition. Chris Stephen would do well to reflect on the difference.
34

Media 1,

cape town 06/09/2008 10:26:27
McCain will be playing catch up the whole way, which is why he will miss out in the end!
Every time there is a surge in McCainville, there is a bigger surge coming in the Obama camp.
At the end of the day, McCain is a war monger, plain and simple.
35

jdships,

06/09/2008 10:28:21
31 Pilrig.,Livingston
You "got my vote " on that !!!
American Presendential elections are a "Three ringed circus" a "game show" and a "reality show" all rolled into one .

Trouble is from these shallow theatricals we get the most powerful person on earth .
Oh dear !!
36

Media 1,

cape town 06/09/2008 10:33:20
drunken proffet

You are of course correct in your assessment of American politics. Their system is hollow, short sighted and dishonest, much like theur leaders. A better system would be for a certain amount of tax money to be kept to one side so that the candidates could go on a campaign trail. No television adverts and no private funding would go a long way to cleaning up this current cesspit of lies,deceit and shameful slander.
American poltics is still in its infancy by comparison to European politics, so perhaps we should allow them some time to catch up! One would think they would have done so by now though.
37

Media 1,

cape town 06/09/2008 10:51:00
This election is one of the most important in the history of American politics. Osama Bin Laden has been protected by the Bush administration for the last 8 years and that protection continues to this day, which is why Bin Laden has never been caught. His many videos over the years have been bought and paid for by the American powers that be, these videos are SO IMPORTANT for the continued occupation of oil rich land.
The twin towers were sacrificed in order to obtain a free ticket into Iraq, which again is why Bin Laden was NEVER pursued by Bush and his cronies - McCain is a Bush man, he is also a war mongering maniac and Osama will be safe under his governance. BUT under an Obama government, Osama will be cut off and perhaps exposed..
That will open up a can of worms so big it will ROCK the foundations of American politics for decades.

So - Cmon Obama
38

Silence of the Yams,

06/09/2008 11:06:29
Obama Bin Laden is who I'm worried about. God help us!
39

Media 1,

cape town 06/09/2008 11:10:59
Silence of the Yams

Obama doesnt have a hope in hell of reaching the depths of evil that men like Bush and McCain are used to reaching!
Bin Laden was commissioned by your own leaders to attack America - Hence why he is still out there and Saddam is not. It is so obvious it is frightening.
40

Silence of the Yams,

06/09/2008 11:13:20
Media 1, utter hysterical garbage. If that's what you beleive I pity you! Don't confuse Reagan's bungled attempts at backing militant rag heads against the Soviets with John McCain. Fatal mistake.
41

Media 1,

cape town 06/09/2008 11:22:13
Silence of the Yams

In your eyes, politicians are morally sound and incapable of such deceit. In mine, they are capable of dropping atomic bombs on innocent civilians, they are capable of cover ups and scandal. They are capable of training men like Osama Bin Laden (oh wait,they already did that)
In my eyes, Osama Bin Laden was the person Bush was supposed be going after following his little blow horn speech on the rubble of the twin towers to the chants of "HUGH ES AY" HUGH ES AY"
It never happened, and how easy it was to manipulate so many with such horror.
They knew that was coming because it had been commissioned years before - they may not have known when or how, but they knew!
War is their drug, war is their need, it is what keeps America afloat.
That is why CHANGE is so important - BARRACK OBAMA knows that and his intentions is to clean up America's act and rid her of the poison that comes in the shape of people like Bush Snr, Bush jnr and McCain.

Where is Bin Laden? Yeah, keep believing your man Bush is a charming and morally perfect citizen.
42

Eric D,

Alba 06/09/2008 11:22:52
I don't believe the US will vote for another Jimmy Carter type.

There's no evidence to suggest Barack Hussien Obama will approach the Bin Laden issue any differently.

British politics aren't any better than the US - a bit more subtle but just as cynical ( see Teflon Tony, Alistair Campbell et al).
43

drunken proffet,

Tassy 06/09/2008 11:28:33
#37 Hi, I was not criticising the American system, I only mentioned that for a lot less money they could achieve the same result. Australia is a beautiful country and if we did not have politicians then the papers would have no news to print. I get the same ideas as you but can no longer afford the bottles they come out off. (sorry about that, pretty scruffy to end with a preposition.) I have come to realise over the years that democracy, like beauty, lies in the eyes of the beholder. It is about time somebody invented something else that also involved a secular government. I also believe that a considerable effort should be made to keep Obama, the President to be, alive over the next twenty or thirty years. Not a lot I could do, even if I had the ability.
44

Media 1,

cape town 06/09/2008 11:31:41
Eric

You cannot name him Barrack Hussein Obama, because no matter how hard you try, you will not find his name on the end of any war head in Iraq.
Barrack Obama did not stand on top of the twin tower rubble and promise to get the people who did it, only to do the opposite.
Obama is not a war mongering psychopath, nor his he a pawn belonging to his dad and his dad's best men. Nor is he in the pocket of the neo con terrorists who must make money on their weapons.
Oh I love it, Obama is scaring the crapp out of them, which is why I fear for his life.
The Bush administration has so much to hide and that scares me. We already know what they are capable of, I fear for Obama.
He is the man for the job.
45

Andrah,

Embrugh 06/09/2008 11:42:00
14# Like many in the US she is religious, and such persons believe to a certain extent in an assortment of superstitious myths. However, she has played the creationist stuff down in her public stance.

The fact that she does not support the global warming myth is to be applauded. There is little "science" only another load of myths which have developed into a new pseudo-religion.
Below are recent links to articles from politicians in New Zealand and Northern Ireland who also eloquently address the MMGW nonsense.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/3425/Debate-must-replace-scaremongering-of.4464059.jp

http://nzclimatescience.net/inde...id=337& Itemid=1

19# I agree with you regarding the BBC.
All publications and commercial broadcasters have a biased agenda driven by their owners and to some extent their customers. However we are not forced to pay a tax enforced by a threat of imprisonment for them, unlike the BBC's non-stop stream of left-wing liberalism with scarcely any dissenting views being expressed throughout the day.
One of the latest examples is the disparity in it's treatment of the two US party Conventions with last week, the BBC giving top billing and drooling over the Obamessiah, almost to the point of hysteria, meanwhile this week, delivering a continuous dose of sniping and sneering at Mc Cain/Palin.
46

indune1,

Canada 06/09/2008 11:47:20

46 - Are you a reporter for the BBC?
47

Jewel of the Forth,

Fife 06/09/2008 12:45:59
#14 Team Scotland

So you would rather they have the irrational team win with the person (Obama) with no experience in the drivers seat?
48

Jewel of the Forth,

Fife 06/09/2008 12:48:45
#48 indune

No, but Media 1 is easily impressed by the Hollywood hype and can't see the empty suit that is Obama.
49

Axel Heidsmann,

Area 47 06/09/2008 12:58:15
To understand what's happening in America, it's necessary to study the literature, children's literature, and our very own JM Barrie's in particular. There was a time when every child in Scotland would have recognized the Tinker Bell in Sarah 'Around the Igloo in 80 Days' Palin. Why?

1. She was picked by John McCain - The Boy Who Wouldn't Grow Up.
2. Her extremist rhetoric can be explained by her inability to experience more than one feeling at a time.
3. At the Republican National Convention, she made it possible for Republicans to fly, merely by sprinkling them with fairy dust.
4. Her survival is dependent upon enough people believing in her, and those like her.

I expect that there are Republicans out there who will rush to fill their pens with umbrage and call me blind for failing to see the Wendy Darling in their little Alaskan lumberjackette. Forget it. Wendy sewed Peter Pan's shadow back on. To have a shadow, you must have substance, and this is something that the Republican platform signally lacks.
50

indune1,

Canada 06/09/2008 13:03:26

So is Obama the crocodile or Captain Hook?

51

LaundryEnd,

Shropshire 06/09/2008 13:16:50
'Teaching'(!)'creationism', banning books, banning abortion, promoting guns, it all sounds frighteningly like the 1930's. And this is supposed to be a modern state that claims to lead the world!

Has no-one the intellectual capacity to say 'the king has no clothes'? and laugh these people off stage?
52

Pilrig.,

Livingston 06/09/2008 13:18:40
Chipman is 72 years auld, the job might be too much for him and he might peg oot. I mean, when (or if ) I reach the age of 72, all I will want to do is relax and take it easy.
It's common knowledge that Ronnie Reagan used to nod off during meetings at the White Hoose, as did Churchill in his second tenure as PM. And then there's Johnny Jenks, the famed sleeping cooncilor in Midlothian, who used to snooze during cooncil meetings.
The point is that McCain might be too auld for the job, then they've got the greenhorn pitbull in instead.

Get the tin hats oot WW3 is coming !


BOOOMMM !!!!!
53

Pilrig.,

Livingston 06/09/2008 13:20:56
53 - I'm having a laugh, no doubt a lot of people ootside of the States are chuckling too.
But we're on the ootside, and besides, most Americans don't vote anyway (can't blame 'em)
54

Axel Heidsmann,

Area 47 06/09/2008 13:48:58
#52

Obama is the ticking clock that Peter Pan McCain imitates to put the wind up Capt Hook.

In the modern version, Capt Hook becomes Capt Tailhook the 91st, the dark side of Peter Pan's personality.
55

Boston sports fan,

06/09/2008 14:47:23
Obama has nobody but himself to blame. He proved that he lacked the judgement to make the best decision when he chose his vp candidate. His ego refused to let him choose Hillary. She could have brought him many votes. Women are tired of being blown off by the old boy network that doesn't take their abilities seriously and look upon them as uppity. The DNC proved once again that it's all about lip service. This is why independents like myself believe it's time for a third party.
56

ebbi,

spain 06/09/2008 15:49:36
i really feel sorry for a nation like america to have go through this circus to be imposed on by another president who would do exactly the same as the previous ones.this is a club and who ever becomes a member his or her convictions are not the welfare of the citizens nor the country.it is a capitalist system and all is about money and money and more money.those who don´t have it can go to hell!!!!this is capitalism at its best.
57

Kelvino,

NY 06/09/2008 16:13:28
Hunting moose has the same level of sportsmanship as
shooting cows in a pasture. They trustingly look at you and then. . . KABOOM ! Sarah-Burgers !

Just an observation from Northern New York State !


58

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 06/09/2008 16:56:50
#46 Media1.. No...You are right, he voted against the war, he voted to stop funding the troops in harm's way, and he went to Europe to apologize for America.. (no one asked him to). He sits at the knees of Nancy Pelosi ( an American traitor) and the undertaker Harry Reid. He is as far left as they are. His comments on Russia and the war between them and Georgia took 3 tries to get it right. He is lacking in everything. I listen to the business shows on Cable and Satellite, and they ALL say he will bring not a Recession, but a Depression with his and the Dems' idea of economics.
Pay the people collecting the welfare checks for sitting on their tushes, while the small businessman is footing the bill and going out of business. Tax the corporations so they have to send their businesses out of the country..while the Corporations are the highest taxed in the world already.

I wish you people who do not live in the USA, do not know how our gov't works would either read, learn, or shut up.

59

Kelvino,

NY 06/09/2008 18:01:36
#60 - (quoting you post. . . )
"I wish you people who do not live in the USA, do not know how our gov't works would either read, learn, or shut up."

I might remind you that you are attempting to explain all of this US government deception on The SCOTSMAN. . .NOT a US entity. Given their perspective and geographic objectivity, I suspect that many of those posting today have a somewhat clearer view of us than we would care to admit. Your explanation of things clearly points to the utter confusion many of us share in the USA. We simply do not know exactly who the real controllers are, who is reaping the profits, who is really taking from all of us for personal gain, who has given away our jobs, who wants to gamble away your social security, who is making millions by feeding misinformation via AM radio and satellite.
I do not blame you for being angry, wanting to blame the "left," etc. We are all angry and we actually have the same enemy and it is NOT each other ! NONE of us had a say in most of these poor decisions, we simply tried to vote for folks that seemed to think like us; we voted with FAITH, not necessarily facts.
I believe we've all been duped by big-money interests that simply have no concern for us whatever. More and more it feels like indentured servitude. . . "I owe my soul to the company store," Wal*Mart, etc.

I live in a rural area where a large percentage of local people are self-employed in some manner. Very few can afford health insurance ( $700. - $1200. / month) or business insurance. It does not help us to hear about mooseburgers, snowmobiles, lapel pins,
"elite" people who can actually read, "middle-class stimulus" bribery checks (right before an election, no less !) and "change" in general.

We need our kids educated for jobs that are still actually here in the USA, we need to feel that if we get sick we won't lose our homes, we need taxation that does NOT support killing innocent people like ourselves in a country that did
60

Kelvino,

NY 06/09/2008 18:09:10
not attack us. We have been successfuly "divided and conquered" by corporate profiteers and we will get absolutely nowhere if we keep blaming each other for the difficulties we all collectively share. In a country where almost 10% of existing mortgages are either behind in payment or in forclosure, we really need to look at the banking system that sold this "easy money" to folks who were only trying to buy a home for their family, as well as the "cash advances" that people use to buy food, etc. The "company store" idea is bleeding us all dry. . . .
61

Sandi,

San Diego 06/09/2008 18:37:31
Governor Palin gave the weekly Republican radio address this morning. Here is a link to a site where you can access it.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/6qqzd5

#21, Jock Smith

Nobody is going to take away a woman's right to choose. John Roberts, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court has said it is settled law and will not change.

The Republican Party will do nothing to take it away because they use it constantly to get their right-wing religious nutters out to vote.

The Democratic Party uses it in exactly the same way, as a potential threat so that its voters will vote against the evil Republicans.

Roe v. Wade is going nowhere.

#60 Lynne,

Barack Obama has never voted against the war in Iraq. He was not in the US Senate when that vote occurred. He made one (1) speech, of which there is no record other than the recording made in a studio years after the fact, against the war.
62

mike - across the pond,

kelvino.... doin the math... 06/09/2008 18:38:59
kelvino...

who are you faulting for this mortgage thing...

bottom line, if you cant afford the mortgage payment on house you live in... WHAT RIGHT DO YOU HAVE TO LIVE THERE?

"We need our kids educated for jobs that are still actually here..."
so lets get this straight... you want our kids (who wont enter the workforce for 5-10 years) educated for jobs that were in their peek needs 5-10 years before they actually enter the workforce?

what we NEED is a FLEXABLE work force that can be trained in a 12-18 month period for the jobs that are needed in the next 2-5 years... you may NEED to retrian 3 to even 10 times over your work career... the idea that you can train in high school for a job that you will have for the next 50 years is simply not real for the majority of the workforce... the world no longer works that way....
63

Dekester,

Canda's westcoast 06/09/2008 18:42:55
#20...Hmm

90% of blacks never vote for Whites..Marrion Barry in DC. Fitzgerald a prominent Black Mayor in Detroit..check them out and look for the spin.
So what is your point..PBS ( for those that do not know.) is the Public broadcasting service, and Bill Moyers is a very nice, but is truly yesterdays man, and a Lilly white liberal.

Obama needs not fear the pathetic white liberals. It is the Asians/and Latinos that are unlikely to vote for Obama, especially in Texas, and Florida.

All the best.

64

Dekester,

Canada' westcoast 06/09/2008 18:52:07
#60 Well said.

I just arrived back from Europe last week. To my home here on Canada's westcoast. We border Alaska on the North, and Washington State to the south.

Obama has been a disasterous pick for the Dems..The party elite knew it half way through the primaries.

As can be seen by his swoon at the end.He has no chance of taking the "battle ground,swing states."

Hillary will be choking, she is no longer the U.S.'s female political star.

He I can't even vote in your elections. However I simply love the process..

All the best.



65

Phillip,

06/09/2008 18:56:11
Kelvino, you obviously have been leaving food out for your moose. When animals begin to associate humans with food, they tend to become trusting and docile. That also comes with frequent exposure to humans. If you go into the wilderness of Alaska and hunt moose that really hasn't been around many humans, doesn't have to cross interstates and may never have even seen a car, you learn that a charging Moose is a deadly sight.

As for Global Warming, I'm not so sure I believe everything about it either. Climatic history shows us that the Earth goes through warm and cold periods. We left our last cold snap in the early 19th century. The Earth gradually started to rise in temperature before mass industrialization, just as it has done countless times before when a cold period ends. The difference was that in the 20th century it began to rise faster than in previous periods. However, it should be noted that the Cold Snap known as the Little Ice Age (which spanned from the 13th to the 19th centuries) also began with a temperature decline that was far more drastic and dramatic than previous periods. Whether the faster rate of increase in the 20th century is due to man or due to other phenomena is something we can debate, but the world would be warming no matter what. We still have not yet reached the average temperatures of the Medieval Optimum (5th to 12th Centuries) or the warm period that coincided with the height of the Greco-Roman Civilization (5th Century BC to 2nd Century AD). So long before industrialization can be blamed there were warmer periods. The only thing we might be able to blame on humans is the rate of increase, not that there is an increase. Also, in every case where temperatures increased, once it reached a certain point the natural cycles changed, causing the North Atlantic Current to weaken or shut down, which then brought about a sharp drop in temperatures and set off a Cold Snap such as the Little Ice Age. Once the temperature drops e
66

Pilrig.,

Livingston 06/09/2008 19:03:08
60 - why read a Scottish newspaper site then ?
67

mike - across the pond,

sandi... 06/09/2008 19:14:12
abortion rights...

methinks we are aproaching the center... lol

its refreshing to see a liberal acknowledge the supreme court has consistently ruled for the last 40 years that abortion rights are a "states rights" issue...

hailing from further up the coast from you I have seen DNC candidates successfully fearmongering that one issue against candidates who have never wavered from that "states rights" stance... (2000 Maria Cantwell vs Slade Gorton) and if you have heard Cantwell speak, you cant help but tilt your head to one side and say "w w w What?" unfortunately because incumbents win elections about 80% of the time until they are old and gray (gorton was 72 when he lost to Cantwell), I fear we are going to see her in office for at least 3 more terms...

I encourage you to use abortion as a "touchstone" issue... I do... if I hear a candidate lambasting his/her opponent on abortion, I look up that persons record... how they view it...

if they say "roe v wade must be outlawed"... the criticism is fair...

however, all too often there is NO SUCH EVIDENCE... and this issue is pure fearmongering.... and the accuser is all too often THIN on viable issues...

personally I'd like my leaders to lead us TO a future... not try to SCARE us from a "settled issue" that really isnt even an issue...
68

57Nomad,

california 06/09/2008 19:17:54
#4 Scully

Scully, you are no doubt correct about Bush #41 failing because of a bad economy, but there are some differences. The first is that #41 was the incumbent President and rightly or wrongly it is the job of the President to assume responsibility for everything that happens on his (or her) watch. We know that this isn't always fair but it comes with the job and there is no whining or excuses accepted. "the buck stops here." Harry S. Truman.

McCain is a Senator. He is not a member of the Executive Branch of the government and they will never make a "bad economy" stick to him because the Democrats control the Senate. If they try to skewer McCain, the first blood drawn will be their own.

Second, and most important, is the this. What economic downturn? Here are the facts:

"Real gross domestic product -- the output of goods and services produced by labor and property
located in the United States -- increased at an annual rate of 3.3 percent in the second quarter of 2008"

Can you explain why the economy expanding at a very healthy 3.3 per cent is a "downturn"? Despite, what seems like worldwide opinion to the contrary, we have been at this democracy business for four hundred years. We're pretty good at it. We are expected to earn our way in the world from the time we are children and consequently have a firm grasp of practical economics. That's why the socialist thing never caught on in the US and never will.

We know that most of the negative news about the economy is linked directly to the rise in the price of oil. A couple of months ago the price of a barrel of oil was about 180 dollars and expected to rise to 200 dollars. This did not fill us with optimism about the future. But, Sarah Palin-like, out or nowhere, that last tulip didn't find a buyer and the price of oil will likely drop lower than 100 dollars a barrel in the coming weeks.

John McCain and Sarah Palin will win walking away. Barak Obama will be lucky to carry five states.
69

57Nomad,

california 06/09/2008 19:40:32
#14 Team Scotland

I'm wondering, how many guys do you have on your team?

TS said:

"She is plainly irrational, promoting creationism and ignoring climate science. Unfortunately unlike Bush she will not know her place. She is arrogant enough to think she is clever and the backroom boys will fail to keep her in her cage."

One of you is irrational, but it's not Sarah. Sarah Palin has never "promoted" creationism. What she called for was free speech in the classroom so that children could express their opinions with out fear of reprisal. For a quick overview of this notion, google "the first amendment to the US constitution". It expressly forbids the government, and schools are part of the government, from impinging on a citizens right to speak their minds. She did not promote creationism and anyone who says so is a liar.

She may or may not share your views on "climate change" and while we are at it, what happened to "global warming"? Why the name change?

Sarah Palin is an extraordinary human being, forget the woman thing. She won the Alaska state championships for her high school team by sinking a free throw in the last second of the game. That's pretty poised, but when you throw in that one of her legs was broken, it adds a little something, don't you think?. How do you do out there on the pitch when you are playing with a broken leg?

Now this: "she will not know her place." What the hell is that supposed to mean? Know her place?!?!?!? She will know her place perfectly. It's called the White House. It's called the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States. It will be called the most powerful woman who ever lived in the history of the human race. Wonderfully enough she will also be known as "mom" and "grandma."

"Know her place," indeed!
70

Carolyn 1,

06/09/2008 19:48:43
The Republicans are not looking to make abortion illegal.
Roe v Wade is considered settled law, and settled law is rarely removed from the books. That doesn't stop the politics.
Abortion is continually used as a scare tactic to push people to vote for a democrat.

What social conservatives object to, and would like to change, is LATE TERM abortion.

Democrats are very protective of the piping plovers here on Cape Cod- we can't build wind turbines, we can't build anything even on our own private land if it might hurt a plover, ...
but the same democrat will have an abortion, and if the baby survives and is born alive, order the baby to be disposed of in the medical waste bin.
No funeral necessary.
And that is good judgment?

A commander in chief has command of our men and women in the military, etc. and will order them into harms' way as he determines. A commander in chief is responsible for determining the 'acceptable losses' in the event of crisis, war, etc. and who will serve, and why.


Thanks but no thanks, I'd like my commander in chief to value the life of a human being more than a sand plover. The world has already had too many 'acceptable' losses, and I mean humans, not plovers.

71

57Nomad,

06/09/2008 19:55:06
#35 media

media said:

"At the end of the day, McCain is a war monger, plain and simple."

Media, you get the much cherished "Wally Tin Foil Hat" award for the day. John McCain a warmonger? Oh, I get it. It was the practice of his captors to tie his hands behind his back and then hoist him off the ground by his wrists. To this day he can't lift his hands past his shoulders.

And this, you say, is a man that loves war.

Wally, heads up, a new contender appears.
72

mike - across the pond,

BO is in T R O U B L E..... 06/09/2008 19:58:46
throughout his campaign,

in the polls BO ran 7-10 points better than he faired at the ballot box....

THAT means that when the Scotsman proclaims that the race is neck-and-neck.... BO is actually 7-10 points behind...

AND there is one little problem here... the polls are a few days old... and dont take into account that the FACT that as glitzy as BO's coronation in Denver... McCain's nomination OUTRATED BO's on total network viewership.... even though McCain is not a great orator... his liberal critics say he gave B+ speach... if thats the case... and he grabs a modest 4-5 point bounce

put THAT on top of BO overpolling.... and you have an 11-15 point McCain lead...

BO is in T R O U B L E..... BIG trouble....

stay tuned for as the bitter left wing media machine desperately digs for dirt like some monkeys flinging doo at the zoo...

the most interesting part behind this is once McCain is ahead by more than 10 points, he will begin to have a "shirt tail" effect upon other races for GOP candidates... spelling TROUBLE across the board...

how long before the DNC minions begin distancing themselves from BO? which cascades BO's trouble closing the gap...
73

Boston sports fan,

06/09/2008 20:05:57
The media in this country has also contributed to the backlash against Obama. When you turn on the television or read newspapers and magazines , I'd say that at least 90% have given their stamp of approval. They don't try to sabotage him like other candidates or ask him the tough questions. Intead of reporting the news, they're pro-Obama support is obvious. He's had a free pass and now with about 60 days left to the election the power of the press is actually powering the electorate to McCain and Palin. The media should put away their pom poms and report just the facts.
74

57Nomad,

california 06/09/2008 20:19:39
#55 Pilrig

Pills said:

"But we're on the ootside, and besides, most Americans don't vote anyway (can't blame 'em)"

Most Americans don't vote? In the 2004 election over 60% of the registered voters voted. I looked on the 'net to see if I could find comparable stats for the British populations but came up with no info. I'm curious about the percentage of eligible who vote in British elections and European elections in general. I promise I'm not trying to start a contention of any kind. I'm curious and theres nothing more to it than that. Can anyone help me with these figures?
75

Paulc37,

USA 06/09/2008 20:30:17
They (Muslim financiers) are very close to planting a stealth Muslim as our President. A man that belongs in jail but they pulled it off. He is evil, the devils worker he is 666. Barak(33) Obama(32) is a 3332 if you apply individual name sum of numbers to a calendar. Take that last 2 and multiple it times 333 you get 666. This vacant suited thug that has accomplished nothing is close to entering the top post in the world. A man long associated with the Muslim underworld.
76

Sandi,

San Diego 06/09/2008 21:10:26
#76 57Nomad,

But how many elibible voters are actually registered? If I recall correctly (and I may not!), less than 50% of eligible voters actually vote. It's not a number to brag about, that's for sure.

77

bikewoman,

06/09/2008 21:15:19
20 Let's have the truth

Sounds like you are being your typical racist self. The fact of the matter is that several states that have a tiny % of blacks were won my Obama. How do you explain that?

How do you explain that when given the choice of white and black candidates whites are much more apt to vote for blacks than blacks are for whites? This has been proven time and time again in congressional elections.

Those who do not have their heads in the sand are willing to admit the media wanted Obama to win from the start and that is why they were asking Hillary tough questions and lobbing softballs at Obama.
78

doublescotch,

U.S.A 06/09/2008 21:21:31
Read Rich Lowry His article is wonderful. The article is called "Hating Sarah" And it says it all really!
79

bikewoman,

06/09/2008 21:23:53
70 57Nomad

I'm a realist so I have to disagree. Congress holds the checkbook. Look at the stagnant first 2 years of the Clinton years when the Congress was held by democrats. When people knew the congress was going to be taken over by Newt and company the economy started to go way up.

Ever since Nancy Pelosi became Speaker of the house we have had serious issues. The buck stops here for several things but it is shared at times with the congress
80

Team Scotland,

FC UK No! 06/09/2008 21:29:23
#71 57Nomad,
Sarah Palin has never "promoted" creationism. What she called for was free speech in the classroom so that children could express their opinions with out fear of reprisal. . . She did not promote creationism and anyone who says so is a liar.

Sarah Palin to the Anchorage Daily News October 27, 2006.

"Teach both. You know, don’t be afraid of education. Healthy debate is so important, and it’s so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both."

http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/elections/story/8347904p-8243554c.html





She may or may not share your views on "climate change" and while we are at it, what happened to "global warming"? Why the name change?

They are not 'my views but the view of the whole scientific community. It used the most sophisticated climate modelling ever conducted and is the product of the worlds most renowned scientific institutions on the planet. 'My view’ has over 60,000 peer reviewed papers to back up its argument. Those denying human induced climate change have precisely none.

There never was a ‘name change', they are different concepts.

Sarah Palin is an extraordinary human being, forget the woman thing. She won the Alaska state championships for her high school team by sinking a free throw in the last second of the game. That's pretty poised, but when you throw in that one of her legs was broken, it adds a little something, don't you think?. How do you do out there on the pitch when you are playing with a broken leg?


It is her lack of logical thinking and her gung ho simplistic world view that makes her dangerous not her lack of a pen1s.

Paul Gascoigne for Prime minister?



Your last paragraph was frankly creepy.

81

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 06/09/2008 21:50:26
Team Scotland #82 You are funny..

Obama has no chance..and Palin..Only a real fool would belittle her accomplishments. Furthermore she is all of 44.
Just saw her on CNN in Colorado Springs.Awesome, and a media darling to boot..Ha Ha Ha. Poor old sour puss Hillary.

The Dems are angry, hurt and again have been sold down the river by the Lefty leaning mainstream media.Will they ever learn? ( let us hope not.)

Michael Moore was on Larry King last night.

Watch it..the fat oaf was near in tears.

All the best.
82

Richardinho,

06/09/2008 22:05:43
Sarah Palin has certainly made an impressive debut on the big political stage in the last week, but we must look beyond all the gloss of the party conference, and the emotional appeal of her being the first woman vice-presidential candidate, and see what her actual policies are. I find it deeply worrying that she apparently wants to promote creationism in schools. The quote from above does nothing to diminish these fears.
Creationism or so called 'intelligent design' may well find a place in the science curriculum-but only once it has been established as solid scientific fact. That means once it has been successfully peer reviewed and is testable by the scientific method.
To bring it in without having been validated in this way would be to the serious detriment of public education in the USA.
83

mike - across the pond,

richardinho.... 06/09/2008 22:30:02
yawn...

cough...

geraldine ferraro...

cough

yawn
84

,

06/09/2008 22:37:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
85

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 06/09/2008 23:31:20
I think that ebbi in 58 shows more sympathy and even empathy for our country than many of the Americans here.

Nimrod57 gets upset when someone casually mentions that Americans vote in a lower percentage than others. Everyone who is well-read knows the Americans don't vote in nearly as high a percentage as virtually all other nations. But Nimrod57 gets upset and challenges. he is ignorant.

Mike gets upset that Kelvino is concerned with the domestic US economy. How ignorant Mike is. Let Them Eat Cake Mike says.

Lynne loves Israel and talks nonsense as always.

I think Romans 1:28 applies to many in America. Read the verse & context.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom001.html#28

The people that rule my country have orchestrated a world where 30,000 people die everyday from starvation or from entirely preventable diseases.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=10085

and all my people can do is watch sleazeballs on CNN and argue among themselves over foolishness. Their minds have been turned over to a reprobate condition.

Meanwhile both candidates for president support ethanol subsidies, a World Bank economist said that 75% of the price increases in these raw foods since 2001 are due to ethanol subsidies of the US & EU. and the candidates debate over how many countries they should attack. September 3'rd - US soldiers raided Pakistan and Pakistan reacted by telling the US it could no longer truck supplies through Pakistan. August 7'th - US soldiers participate with Georgians to attack Russians. War is becoming a way of life.





86

Kelvino,

NY 07/09/2008 00:09:41
Please. . . . NO ROCKY & BULLWINKLE !
87

Kelvino,

Frostbite Falls, NY 07/09/2008 00:21:48
The further adventure os ROCKY (the flying squirrel)
and BULLWINKLE (the moose. . .as in "burgers")

Watching the following cartoon, I am struck by the uncanny resemblance to our esteemed candidates:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYPpoV4_9Fk

McCain and Palin have never been shown so true to form !


88

mike - across the pond,

wally.... 07/09/2008 00:52:22
my response to kelvino....

which part are you saying was "let them eat cake"?

you want the government to pay off mortgages for people who couldnt do the math on their budgets? and promised to pay the bank monies that they knew they werent going to have???? lets give them a car of their choice too... and why should they have to work... that might interfere with their partyboy lifestyle... WHO is gonna pay for all that wally?

jeeeez.... how callous of me....

or is it the education thing?

I dont see how THAT is "let them eat cake"....
89

mike - across the pond,

cake..... 07/09/2008 00:57:56
wally...

I think the problem is they already ATE the cake...

and now theyre pulling a "dine & dash"... not wanting to pay for what they committed to....
90

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 07/09/2008 01:08:09
Mike, the Federal Reserve (together with the 12 member banks) today create US dollars from thin air and then lend it to private equity firms who use it to buy up companies and properties. This drives up prices and puts money created from thin air directly into the pockets of rich people. This is welfare for the rich Mike. This is what you and McCain and Obama support. Then the private equity firms suck money out of their properties thus driving up prices and costing all the citizens so that they can pay the money back in principal and interest. This causes a huge concentration of wealth into the hands of a very few people. All of it directed by purposeful government policy for the benefit of a few rich people.

Marie Antoinette was completely out-of-touch with the people in the late 1700's. The poor of france were horribly oppressed at that time. Likewise Mike, you are out of touch and not knowledgeable of the troubles. That is the comparison.
91

57Nomad,

california 07/09/2008 01:43:30
#59 kelvino

Regarding hunting Moose Kelvino said:

". They trustingly look at you and then. . . KABOOM !"

Now this is spoken like a true city boy. Moose and their cousins, elk, are not some docile creature who will come up and eat out of your hand when you see one in the wild while you are out communing with nature. What they will do is gore you with their antlers and then stomp you to death. Think I'm kidding? Here's (if can stand watching it) a man being stomped to death by a couple of those Moose with the 'trusting' eyes.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1416/moose/
92

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 07/09/2008 01:52:07
Laughable rot!

Economies don't fail immediately. Since Pelosi still gives Bush everything he wants, how is it only the Democrats' fault? Stupidity.

Yes, Pelosi is a traitor: she has enabled Bush to shred our Constitution, start two unnecesary wars, run the economy into the ground (remember the surplus?)... She is indeed every bit the traitor that Bush is.

Palin does support creationism. The lunatic creationists have been trying to get their fairy tale into the schools (more recently by calling it Intelligent Design) by their disingenuous calls for "free speech." Free speech does not mean that you have the right to spout gibberish in a science class. Creationism is pure religious twaddle, not a scientific theory - and not fit for science classes. Genesis is already taught in many comparative region courses - the only place it has any legitimacy.

The religious loonies told the same lie when trying to block PBS from broadcasting of Jonathan Miller's series. "A Brief History of Disbelief." They demanded "equal time." Equal time! PBS has broadcast many, many hours of programs about religion in general and Christianity in particular - but these hypocrites wanted a program specifically to counter Miller's. PBS has never had a program specifically to counter any of their religious programs, but that doesn't matter to these phony "equal time" advocates. (But that's okay: lying in furtherance of their medieval cause is acceptable to their god! Which god that is, is something I often wonder about. It can't be the god that commanded his people not to bear false witness.)

Mayor Palin collected $26 million in earmarks (pork) for tiny Wasilla, pop. 6700 - by being an insider (her junkets to D.C. are legend in Alaska) - and stil left the tiny town with $20 million in long-term debt. If she can't balance the budget in a tiny town, even with the help of that much federal money, what would she do to a large nation? (Right: just more of what Bush
93

indune1,

Canada 07/09/2008 01:52:08

Wally - By the Rivers of Babble-On. With respect, considering your rather simplistic and oh-so flawed analysis; how do you explain the millions of every-day Americans who can prosper, raise families and retire without being a burden on their country and fellow citizens?

You are not related to Kelvino by any chance?
94

indune1,

Canada 07/09/2008 01:55:37

Wee Alec - you sound like a CNN operative in the "Situation Room". Would you kindly back up your allegations with references or at least three sources. That would be akin to something like a credible journalist would do.
95

Laurette,

SO Cal. 07/09/2008 02:00:51
#21 Would this sway you?

Instead of working toward prevention, the pro-life movement works toward prosecution. If Foster's Women Deserve Better campaign succeeds and Roe v. Wade is overturned, as she hopes, about 21 states are likely to ban abortion. In these states many women will take matters into their own hands as hundreds of thousands of women did before Roe v. Wade became law. What would those women deserve then? We already have a foreshadowing. Just a few weeks ago, the state of Georgia introduced an abortion ban. The pro-lifers who drafted that law considered what women who take matters into their own hands would deserve. Their answer: the death penalty.

It might just come to this. I'm too old to worry and my daughter and granddaughter are moving to Israel if Palin/McCain are elected. It still amazes me how Americans vote for Personalities rather than the things that really matter. I utterly loathe Dick Cheney, but can you see Palin in his shoes?
96

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 07/09/2008 02:01:14
Cont'd

(Right, just more of what Bush and his cronies have done.)

She is also under investigation for issues involving abuse of powers/office.

John McCain was a POW. Indeed he was. Unfortunately there have been many POWs. That alone does not qualify any one of them for the White House.

If anyone really gives a damn about the opinions of POWs/vets, check out Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain:

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com

John "Bomb, Bomb, Iran" McCain has a hair-trigger temper, as is well-known in Washington. Unfortunately, it isn't restricted to the halls of Congress or dealings with the D.C. press:

http://www.mmcclatchydc.com/251/story/42844.html

Who would want this pair for president and vice-president?
97

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 07/09/2008 02:03:20
indune 1

For what have you given three sources?

For what, specifically do you want any sources?

CNN is a right-wing biased news organization.
98

mike - across the pond,

wally.... 07/09/2008 02:08:02
wow...
think I just figured you out wally....

you are a "great society" guy... womb to tomb...

"buy" a house you cant afford.... the government will bail you out

why not "buy" a "green" car you cant afford? if the gov't will bail your house out why not your car... hey its GREEN!!!

why not "buy" a boat you cant afford?

why not run your credit to the max?

why work? the great society safety net is there to protect you...

news flash wally... the great society died in the 1990s...
99

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 07/09/2008 02:12:22
Correction: right-wing-biased. They are not (quite) right-wing - but are biased toward the right wing
100

indune1,

Canada 07/09/2008 02:18:43
99 - Wee Alec you stated:

"indune 1

For what have you given three sources?

For what, specifically do you want any sources?"

Your rather clumsy opening aside, I would remind you that you are the one who has made allegations and posted pontifications. They, as any objective person would infer, were wholly subjective. You offered no substantive reference(s). Providing such references, as the most inexperienced undergraduate would agree, is the first step towards serious and informed debate. All you offer is vitriol and character assassination which is, tragically, symptomatic of the dark side of your political system and the likes of you who feed and keep it alive.
101

mike - across the pond,

hey alec... 07/09/2008 02:36:59
you are a law enforcement officer you taser a 10 year old kid "for fun".... what happens to you?

you are a law enforcement officer you drink and drive your police car on the job.... what happens to you?

you are a law enforcemnt officer you go big game hunting out of season.... what happens to you?

you want THAT kind of guy running your police department?

you think firing somebody with THOSE strikes against him is "abuse of power"?

oh and if you did a little research you would find that SHE didnt ask that he be fired... it was one of her underlings "acting in her name"...

the question is.... and the democrats ask a question they DONT want the answer to....

WHO would you vote for...
someone with 140 days as a senator, 4 years as a state legislator....

or someone with 8 years as an executive....

we're not hiring a judge or a lawmaker.... who has the luxury of TIME to make decisions we're hiring an EXECUTIVE.... who we must trust to make decisions because LIVES depend on it... ask louisiana what they think of the legendary accomplishments of Kathleen Blanco... better yet ask HER what SHE would do differently... she has LOTS of time to answer...

I'd take Palin over BO.... and I'll even take McCain as the #1....

why are YOU voting for BO? and you wouldnt even take biden in the primary.... lol...
102

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 07/09/2008 02:38:10



Clumsy? What neocon posting here have you asked to cite three references? When did I say that I was a journalist? Common neocon tactics: claim aperson is something, then demand that he meet standards yet ignore his own side's lack of those same standards. Puerile arguments - and so thin that anyone can recognize them for what they are.

If you want vitriol and character assassination, watch re-runs from the Republican convention.

Strange that someone that addressed me as "Wee Alec" would be so silly as to present him/herself as against personal attacks.

Sources:

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2008/090308a.html

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2008/090208c.html

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/09/05/sarah-palin-the-earmark-queen-of-ak-left-wasilla-20-million-in-debt


http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/000610.htm

The reference for McCain's short temper is given above.

Subjective? Try again.

103

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 07/09/2008 02:39:39
Mike, who are you addressing?
104

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 07/09/2008 02:48:48
Sorry,

#104 was a reply to indune 1 at #102

And, indune 1, that was a serious inquiry as to what is was you wanted sources to. I made a series of comments, and some of them referred to facts that ought to be well-enough-known that they would require no references, such as McCain's short temper and the repeated efforts to insert creationism into science courses, including later efforts to dress it up and re-label it "intelligent design."
105

indune1,

Canada 07/09/2008 03:00:00

All right, this posting is addressed to "Alec from Chicago". Due deference to personal moniker has been given.

However, that is where deference ends.

You have given references. Well done. Now we shall see their value and relevance. A good, first step towards hopefully an informed debate. As to the value of its contribution: that will be debated and determined.

All I am saying, is that at the end of your #94 posting, you made some serious allegations without substantion.

Many, these days, make such allegations hoping that they go unchallenged and "ipso facto" become accepted as facts.

As to short tempers - Slick Willie Clinton has only recently demonstrated his and will no doubt will do again.

Calm down chum. The faults you see are not in one particular quarter but all around you. Choose your poison.


106

mike - across the pond,

alec alec alec 07/09/2008 03:04:24
I guess putting your NAME in the title doesnt get your attention.... I should have smacked you on the back of your pointy head?

or are you too elite to entertain audience with those "below your lofty station"?

lol
107

mike - across the pond,

alec 07/09/2008 03:23:13
or should I have titled this
your royal uppity-ness.... Alec from chicago.... lol

reference 1....
email gate... if thats the length and breadth... of her wrongdoing... well you better get something BIGGER than that....

reference 2....
bridge to nowhere....
LAUGHABLE.... DO YOUR RESEARCH DOLT....
her ketchikan support of the "bridge to nowhere"... which BTW is not really "to nowhere"... its from ketchikan, a significant port for that part of the world, to their airport....

after winning the election, and after Katrina, she agreed that alaska should not accept federal funds for that project.... not exactly a BO class "I could no more turn my back on Rev Wright than I could stop being black".... news flash alec.... I guess BO aint black anymore..... lol

issue #3
Wasilla debt...
I dont hear wasilla complaining...

and I have to laugh about your 4th issue...
you posted a "premium" link... and got your royal account locked!!!!

ha ha ha ha...
108

indune1,

Canada 07/09/2008 03:27:25

Alec- what is your response to Mike at #109? Seems we have the semblance of an objective and informed debate.
109

indune1,

Canada 07/09/2008 03:33:42

Seems like Alec has

1) Fallen asleep;

2) Gone to a BO rally;

3) Desperately seeking Wikipedia; or

4) All of the above.

110

indune1,

Canada 07/09/2008 03:42:06


Well, all right lads. Off to my rack. Gae nicht.

And by the way, don't take the process so seriously nor your own selves.
111

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 07/09/2008 03:55:23
Mike, how many times must I inform you???

Mike wooten tasered his step-son because his stepson was curious about it and wanted to be tasered. he used the lowest setting. The police commissioner of Alaska felt this was no problem and not a reason to fire Wooten. Your goddess Sarah palen fired police commissioner Monegan about this and lied to the whole state about it.

have some respect for the law. Palin was not legally empowered to fire Wooten. Monegan was. and he concluded different from you.

I realize that you're a fascist that worships fascist authority Mike. At least try to live in the world of reality though.
112

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 07/09/2008 04:08:46
Mike

I don't look for "greetings" in the space dedicated to posters' locations.

Reference 1: just a starting point. Go to the home page.

Reference 2: ditto. Why are you arguing with me over where the bridge was supposed to go? I didn't give it the nickname. Puerile.

Reference 3: all you can do is say that you don't hear Wasilla complaining? Ridiculous reply. I said she couldn't run a small town, gave a reference, and all you can say is you don't hear the town complaining? Check out some newspapers that cover tiny Wasilla; I doubt you'll see kind words. Puerile again. (Is there a course in being puerile that neocons attend?)

Why "premium link" and what "royal account" of mine was locked?
113

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 07/09/2008 04:14:06
indune 1

Informed debate? All he did was try to laugh off the investigative stories I referenced.

Any clod can write lol. Any clod can reply that it isn't a big deal. He hasn't heard the town complaining: ridiculous.

You have some very low standards for your own.

Why tell me to calm down? There was nothing in my comment to suggest that I am not calm. Mike, however... But you don't crticize neocons - however silly or obnoxiously they behave. (There's that old double standard.)

FYI, I am not an Obama supporter! I have never been to an Obama rally. I didn't even watch any part of the Democratic convention.

Try again.
114

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 07/09/2008 04:17:02
Wally

They don't want to know.

They want to argue - but they can't do so without exaggerating, lying, obfuscating, ignoring or belittling the facts, or loading on the ad hominems.

How's the weather in AZ?
115

indune1,

Canada 07/09/2008 04:28:35

" Free speech does not mean that you have the right to spout gibberish in a science class". Those are your words. Hardly a calming influence nor informed comment.

Sorry Alec, but free speech means you have the right to express your beliefs anywhere and in any context. Whether you are subsequently judged to be a raving idot; racist or genius, is, hopefully, up to the hopefully informed view of your fellow citizens.

I leave yours to your fellow citizens.

116

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 07/09/2008 04:32:29
Mike

Forgot to ask: how does Bill Clinton's - or anyone else's - temper excuse McCain's? I don't recall ever reading about Bill Clinton reaching out and grabbing someone he was supposed to be negotiation with. Nor have I ever heard of him shouting and swearing or throwing things in the halls of the White House, (though the stories of McCain doing so can be found). Google it - if you dare.

Or were you just trying to dump on "one of mine"? You failed. I was never a supporter of either Clinton.

Still laughing?
117

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 07/09/2008 04:41:43
No, that is not the definition of free speech.

If something is taught in science class, it is expected to be science. Would you have boxing taught in home ec? History taught in performing arts classes? How about inserting science into religion classes?

If that is the extent of your understanding of free speech, you need a brush up course.


"Free speech does not mean that you can spout gibberish in a science class" is an informed statement. I know that creationism does not constitute science, and I know that reserving science classes for the teaching of science only is not an infringement on free speech.

Further, you told me to calm down - now you are trying to re-frame it by suggesting that I was not being calmING, rather than calm. Failed again. Anyone that gets upset by my calling creationism religious gibberish needs to worry about him/herself. It isn't in my interest to water things down to accommodate fanatics.

Once again, you ignored Mike's obnoxiousness. That's okay, though: 1. it shows you for the biased person you are; 2. I am not one of those hysterical people that needs for all comments to be "calming."

Try again.

118

indune1,

Canada 07/09/2008 04:50:44

Now Alec - I believe you must under the age of 30. If so, it would be the only excuse for your naivite or ignorance.

Consider another one of your incredulous statements - "Nor have I ever heard of him shouting and swearing or throwing things in the halls of the White House, (though the stories of McCain doing so can be found).

Stories of McCain shouting, swearing or throwing things (Alec: note editing and punctuation) in the White House would be greatly appreciated considering that McCain has never been a resident.

If you are referring to a particular formal visit to the White House by Senator McCain during which he "lost it", please inform. And,if this is case; would it not prove that he is not Bush's lap dog?
119

mike - across the pond,

wally and tasers..... 07/09/2008 04:51:06
so if a 10 year old were curious about sex that would be ok for an adult to "show them"? WHOS GOT THE EFFING BRAIN???

HE WAS THE ADULT.... its called CHILD ABUSE... crist wally, you cant hide him behind "the 10 year old wanted to know"... thats absolutely LUDICROUS

and as far as whos empowered to fire whom.... if your bosses boss wants you gone... exactly how much push back does your boss have.... pretty little if he wants to keep HIS job.... or do you work in a union shop.... lol
120

mike - across the pond,

wally 07/09/2008 04:52:05
and wooten was written up for it.... the charge WAS NOT DISMISSED AS INSIGNIFICANT....
121

indune1,

Canada 07/09/2008 05:03:51
119 - Wee, wee Alec - you don't get it. Your elitist views cannot accept that free speech means that anyone is entitled to their opinion - however mixed-up or ill-informed it may be.

I may propose the opinion that McCain's military service is fraudulent. If I want such an opinion to be of value - then I must prove it. Such is the basic proposition and evaluation of free speech.

Oh, by the way, by your definition , anything taught in Science is scientific. Does that mean everything taught in "Political Science" is scientific?

122

mike - across the pond,

sophomoric alec 07/09/2008 05:42:00
to his omniscient all knowing

ALEC FROM CHICAGO...

your left wing rantings about "the bridge to nowhere" are significantly missing context.... ALL THE FRIGGIN TIME... I've lived in towns where bridges were built that went nowhere... this was not the case...

it was a LARGE sum of money... but it is a SIGNIFICANT span, not overly opulent, and would serve a purpose.... hey, dont you have a highway in illinois that that crook hastert "earmarked" into existence? why doesnt YOUR governor kill THAT one? guess he'd have to have some integrity.... HECK last I heard the RESIDENTS OF THE COUNTY DONT WANT THE HIWAY.... just another crooked Illinois politican... I guess your gov lacks the stones to "do the right thing"... maybe they could donate that money to ketchikan for a bridge abuttment or something.... might save some kids life getting him/her to the airport 15 minutes quicker than taking the ferry....

your dismissal of the context of the story is rather sophomoric... dont you think???

and yes alec.... I am still laughing... WTF are you talking about? bill clinton throwing things in the whitehouse? although I think Hillary probably had just cause.... actualy I am laughing even harder now!!!!

pal you better reserve your tickets for BO's campaign wake... aka oprahs pity party on Nov 6... she'll be crying her eyelashes off again....

having a hard time typing.... laughing WAAAAY too hard....
123

mike - across the pond,

wally 07/09/2008 05:51:41
alec from chicago....

so wasilla is 20M in debt...

what was it spent on?

if you think that the town (which has DOUBLED in size since she took office) is SOOOO destitute... why cant you find disgruntled citizens of the fair city who are willing to go on the record??? how about the current mayor???

cities borrow monies ALL THE TIME to build their infrastructure....

btw hastert's hiway.... we all had to borrow that money to pay for that!!!
124

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 07/09/2008 06:26:06
indune 1

Ah, so now you change your definition of free speech. This one is more accurate. Yes, everyone is entitled to his or her - (not "their") - opinion. That is not at all what you stated before.

I am hardly under 30 (another ad hominem).

Posted comments are not academic papers, and informality (and typos) are commonly accepted. (Take a look at some of the things the neocons write.)

Further, perhaps it would interest you to know that I have worked as both a proofreader and an editor - of academic papers, as it happens. (I don't bother with careful proofreading here, as it is not generally demanded.) For your edification, I did not intend to say, as you suggest, "shouting, swearing, or throwing things." I meant to say exactly what I did: "shouting and swearing" together, with "throwing things" as a separate issue, not necessarily connected with shouting and swearing. If you are going to try to correct someone, you ought to have a better grasp of the subject than he has.

McCain did so in the halls of Congress. It had already been stated. For that matter, doing something in the White House doesn't necessarily mean doing it in the Oval Office, as you imply. He most certainly can lose his temper in the White House and still be Bush's man. (I never said "lap dog." Another attempt to put words in my mouth. "Lost it" is also your term. Not very clever: everything is in writing.)

Where is the response to the report of his grabbing someone during political negotiations? Another attempt at deflection.

Failed to respond to the report. Failed to deflect attention from the issue. Just another neocon ramble.

Political science is not "a science course." No one I know would classify it as such - and I have spent quite a few years in university, both taking courses and working. The subject was creationism in science classes. That obviously means natural science classes. Puerile.

More babble and ad hominems.

Here'
125

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 07/09/2008 06:41:08
Here's a lesson in proofreading - (not editing!): "And,if this is case; would that not mean that he is not Bush's lap dog?"

Never start a sentence with "and."
Add a space after the first comma.
Insert an article before "case."
Change the semicolon between the two clauses to a comma.

Normally, I would not have commented: as I said, we are not writing academic papers here. However, if you want to set yourself up as an authority, you have opened yourself to the same sort of criticism.

Political science is not "a science course." The subject was creationism in science classes. Obviously, that means natural science.

All you know is insult, obfuscation, deflection, and ignoring and/or denying the facts. [Yes, that is written correctly.]

Your accuse me of "naivete or ignorance" - and then prove yours: you botch up correcting my writing, and you display your ignorance of the difference between editing and proofreading.

I am off to engage in more worthwhile endeavors.

126

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 07/09/2008 06:51:14
Mike

Once again, I did not nickname the bridge.

I am not responsible for Hastert or Obama or Oprah or anyone else. What they do is always open to criticism; but, as I stated before, no wrong committed by any person excuses the wrongs of others. I'd like to see such a silly argument into court. "It's true, your honor, that I ____ed - but others have done so, too!"

As I was not comparing Palin to anyone else, it is illogical and fallacious to bring in others.

Further, I notice that you keep trying to tie me with Democrats and/or Obama-supporters. I am neither.

I have many complaints about Obama. In an article about him, I mentioned a few. I see no reason to repeat all my criticisms of everyone every time I criticize anyone.

Your anger and hatred for anyone that disagrees with you is past boring.

127

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 07/09/2008 06:55:01
indune 1

A correction to comment #126. Doing something in the White House does not necessarily mean doing it in the Oval Office or in front of or to the president, as you imply. Bush is isn't everywhere in the White House at all times.

Good night!
128

mike - across the pond,

alec in chicago chicago 07/09/2008 07:25:47
ah alec in chicago....

just trying to bring it home pal somewhere you can relate to....

whats fallacious is to rip apart someone else out of context and without comparison to contemporaries....

what is fallacious is to put your hands up and say "I am not responsible for my local politicians" WHO ELSE WOULD BE?

it is beyond humorous to see "grammar lessons" on the internet... when the "teachers" dont have THEIR stuff straight.... if you're gonna preach perfection pal... you probably aught to BE perfect yourself. dont you think??? "I'd like to see such a silly argument into court." huh???

WHOs angry? lol

take a chill pill dude! lol
129

mike - across the pond,

ah and alec 07/09/2008 07:39:34
alec in chicago chicago....

as far as using responses in the "location"... you might notice that you can search the blog for your name and you get the whole post... makes it easier to find your stuff... all about the easier... come into the 21st century its all right...

and being that you have chicago in your "name" as I have "across the pond" in mine... your second chicago looks... well kinda outa place.... dont you think?

as far as you being an obama supporter.... I read your posts... my grandmother used to say "if it walks like a duck... and quacks like a duck.... maybe its a duck..."

if you dont want me to call you a duck... stop quacking like one....
130

mike - across the pond,

wally and ethanol 07/09/2008 08:15:09
brazil uses sugar cane for ethanol production

we americans could probably eliminate ALL sugar from our diets....

and there are scientists saying that there are better ethanol production sources than Sugar Cane....
131

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 07/09/2008 08:57:32
Alec in chicago,

weather's been nice here in AZ, 109 today. hope things are nice in chicago. you're right, there's a lot of people on this board who don't want to know, they want ignorance and can't tolerate an effort to explore the truth.

What you said in last paragraph of 94 is 100% true. Palin's record as a politician is to be a big tax & spend republican. that's not my opinion, thats fact. Her city wasilla had no debt when she first became mayor. She embarked upon a program of getting money from Washington, this is very unusual for a small town mayor, yet we're told here that it is normal. She left that town with a lot of debt it did not have. and we're told we're illegitimate for merely wanting to consider her track record. As governor she consistently favored subsidies for alaska paid for by taxpayers, she was at odds with the alaska state legislature and her own party for this penchant. I put up the link to the 'opposition research' done on Palin years ago, about a 60 page pdf file with many facts on exactly what she did as mayor. I put up links to local newspapers in alaska, articles documenting. I put up link to the e-mail from the person who has known her since 1992.

that link you gave for vietnamveteransagainstmccain is very excellent info. His own piers called him 'songbird'. he did 21 propaganda tapes that were broadcast in north vietnam. these are warnings, we should look into this. he has a track record of having an anger problem, it is very well documented. I've put up links. his own piers on the US Senate don't like him over this, people in his own party caution against him.

There's 1 benefit I found on scotsman, it demonstrates that there are a lot of people outside of the US that are equally as stupid as some of the people inside of the US that buy the propaganda in the mass media. I am like you that I try to show them and get abused for it.

I don't even watch tv, it is pollution.
132

Wally,

By The Rivers Of babylon (USA) 07/09/2008 09:08:01
Mike, concerning your ethanol subsidies - why do you favor them? if it were economical, then it would require no subsidy. corn is the one crop that is the worst to use. The Financial Times in UK had a big article showing this. That is the crop that the US uses most for this proces. It is suicide Mike to destroy both food and fuel in an uneconomical process. In the past I've put up links documenting this. If there are economical processes, then let them be used without government subsidies.

McCain & Obama both favor the ethanol subsidies. They are very evil. These are policies of genocide against poor people around the world. 30,000 people a day Mike die from this.

You seem ignorant Mike on how the money creation process works. This is deeply related to global economic problems. Read Sheldon Emry's essay 'billions for bankers, debts for people'. You can find it Mike, use scroogle instead of google. use your brain Mike, the more you do it, the stronger it will get. Don't watch tv. These are doctor's orders Mike, for your own benefit.
133

Pilrig.,

Livingston 07/09/2008 09:08:49
70; Nomad - you said "registered voters" what's the percentage of US citizens who are 'unregistered' ?

72 % of registered voters voted at the last UK General Election in 2005. ( I wasn't one of them, I haven't voted in a UK election since 1997).

Percentages for voting in the European Parliament elections are much lower. But then the power resides in Brussels and not Strasbourg.
134

Pilrig.,

Livingston 07/09/2008 09:11:17
153 should have been addressed to Nomad's post # 76
135

Pilrig.,

Livingston 07/09/2008 09:18:58
84 - "Creationism and ID may find it's way into the curriculum but only once they've been established by solid scientific fact"

Solid scientific fact for Creationism and ID ? Where ?
136

indune1,

Canada 07/09/2008 11:52:06

Wee Alec. Do you feel insulted? Why, I ask?

Obfuscation? Whatever do you mean?

I believe I am not the first to point out many weaknesses in your rather juvenile views.

Wally of Babble-on. Yes, TV is pollution. Please stop polluting this medium.

Editor and proofreader? Of course your are. Your high school paper can atest to that?

, wee Alec
137

Taz,

The Land of the Free. 07/09/2008 20:22:26
Obama will pay dearly for not selecting Hillary. With Palin blowing through the Democrats like a Mac truck in a rainstorm, it could cost him the whole ball game. It could also set things up for a female to female race in four years. I would like to see that.

I bet Brits wish they could vote for a leader of their choice and not have politicians having a seat at the table because they were born into the proper family and have that right from birth. Then again any country that has been led by the nose from London for centuries can hardly have any pride in themselves or their country. Please spare me the Edinburgh parliament nonsense.
138

Pilrig.,

Livingston 07/09/2008 20:49:34
139 - " politicians having a seat at the table because they were born into the proper family"

Of course the US is free of this sort of thing ....Kennedys...Bushes....Clintons...Roosevelts...and of course Obama and Cheney are also related.....
139

mike - across the pond,

07/09/2008 23:13:02
where do you get the idea that:
1) I am rabidly behind blind ethanol subsidies...
that said, you have to agree that any new technology (and for these purposes ethanol IS a "new" technology) requires subsidies... the railroad did... hiways do... aviation does... space does, and will.... ethanol IS different from petro-fuel, you cant just go out and fill up your car and go.... our government needs to GTF out of our way, and let us convert to it.... if we are going to go to ethanol like brazil... we need the infrastructure to be AHEAD of demand... keeping prices down, and making it attractive for people to swap to it... so how are you going to build that infrastructure without subsidies....

2) somewhere you got it in your head that I think that using corn is the best permanent solution... please point out to me where I have EVER said that...
Corn is the same as drilling for oil... something that will work short term, but we need something better LONG TERM.... actually I think that IF WE ARE GOING ETHANOL, LIKE BRAZIL, the FREE ECONOMY will force OTHER sources to be used in the "intermediate term"... right now we have a large infrastructure to produce corn... so for these initial phases while it is not the best... it should get us off the ground.... again IF THAT IS THE DIRECTION THE GOVT WANTS US TO GO....

also, wally.... you know that corn is not the best dietary staple for humans anyway... so going on about how using corn is starving people is... well... not smart

dont take MY word for it... ask your dietician...

personally I'm a BIG electricity guy... wind, solar, tidal energy, nuclear powerplants... electric cars, "recharge" stations.... those are all intermediate to long term solutions 5-20 years down the road though.... we simply do not have standardization or the infrastructure to support it... not to mention that the technologies arent quite there yet either....

but ALL of those will take HUGE fede
140

Richardinho,

07/09/2008 23:38:10
#137 'Solid scientific fact for Creationism and ID ? Where ?'

Hey, I'm willing to be open minded on-maybe someday the intelligent design folk might actually go and try and find some scientific footing for it rather than trying to shoe-horn it into the classroom by the backdoor. Not that I'm going to hold my breath on that one!

I think there should be a level playing field between creationism and conventional science. Both should have to go through a strict process of testing and peer review before being taught in schools and not be able to leapfrog their way in through political pressure. I'm sure all fair minded people would agree!
141

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 08/09/2008 00:47:54
Well, readers can see for themselves.

Mike chastised me for correcting inuk 1's writing - when it was clearly done to tell him exactly what Mike claimed to be teaching me: don't set standards you cannot meet. Unfortunately for Mike, he appears to have overlooked three facts: it was inuk 1 that set the standard, inuk 1's attempted correction of my writing was wrong, and I clearly wrote that I do not carefully proofread the comments I post here, as they are not academic papers. (Therefore, Mike's "exposure" of my imperfection does nothing but prove that I was being truthful.)

Mike's continued "defense" of a wasteful mayor that has her head buried deep in the public trough is simply that others do it, too. I, for one, am not an advocate of such flexible ethics: something is either ethical or it is not, regardless of how many other people do or do not indulge in it. It is also an absurdly ironic defense of someone who is trying to pass herself off as a reformer!

Then Mike tries to say that I claimed that I am not responsible for my local pols. I never stated such a thing. As a matter of fact, I am not in Hastert's district (14?), so he is not my local pol.

Mike and inuk 1 have clearly displayed their contempt for the readers' ability to think for themselves. They believe that they can deflect criticism through simplistic attempts at misrepresentation and obfuscation.

Note Mike's suggestion that I said that Bill Clinton had thrown things in the White House - which is the opposite of what I said, that I had never read any such reports - as contrasted with the repeated reports of McCain's outrageous behavior.

Mike obviously thinks that other readers are incapable of interpreting my comments themselves, and that you would be deceived by his childish attempts to misrepresent my statements. (Very much like Karl Rove in spirit - but with none of the intellectual competence.)

There's inuk 1 again, suggesting that I am in high school. (The fa
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Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 08/09/2008 01:47:20
Hi, Wally,

Late returning to the site.

The weather here in Chicago is great - about 30 degrees cooler than there! 90 degrees in Chicago usually means very high humidity levels. I don't think we've ever quite made it to 109 degrees, bt we've gotten fairly close. People I know who've done a fair bit of travelling tell me that 100 degrees in the desert is not nealy as uncomfortable as 100 degrees in other areas. They've also said that 50 degrees in Chicago or New York doesn't feel as cold as 50 degrees in San Francisco.

Yes, McCain likes to talk about his early days as a POW - before they dicovered what a "celebrity" they had. Did you catch the picture of McCain being interviewed, and the table with treats not offered any of his fellow POWs? (Or is that on another site?) UCMJ? Who needs such a thing, if your father and grandfater are both admirals? How the hell did they even put him behind the controls of a plane in the first place?

Just as Bush has managed to make the most rabid left-winger feel almost wistful about Nixon's years, so McCain would make us all like Reagan just a bit more - (though only by comparison, of course).

The strange thing about neocons is that they are always calling liberals biased and insisting that we walk in lock-step with the DNC, when the fact is, a lot of liberals hate the DNC and have bitterly criticized both Obama and Clinton (not progressive); and I can't imagine a bunch of liberals marching in lock-step for any reason.

On the other hand, Republicans pick up their party's talking points and repeat them without cessation. They don't appear capable of questioning. Palin is a phony - but then, Republicans generally don't seem to mind phonies: look at the phony 'Christians' they readily accept. A small minority were willing to look at their party critically: those are the ones that "held their noses" and voted Democratic in 2006.

Do you think McCain is so deluded that he believes Palin would serve
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Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 08/09/2008 02:07:17
Cont'd

Do you think McCain is so deluded that he believes Palin would serve to wo back those Christians that voted Democratic in 2006? I don't think her lack of ethics and integrity will serve him well in that endeavor.

You're right about TV. I moved at the end of January, and haven't bothered connecting the antenna yet. I do watch the set, but only in its current role as monitor for my VHS and DVD players. This way, the programming is much improved (mainly old movies and programs from the BBC, as well as nature programs and the like), there are no commercial interruptions, and reception is never an issue; plus the scheduling is done by me. The downside: the delay in release. I am just finishing the first half of "One Foot In the Grave" (season 4), but must wait until the spring to see any more - more than two years after the release of the last disc in the UK. (The same goes for "Waiting for God" - except no one seems to know when the next disc will be released in the US!)

I can catch PBS online, as well as a number of news programs, including C-Span. Why would I watch broadcast TV again? (I don't have cable or satellite, either, of course: not quite as bad as broadcast, but still too few good programs, and the schedule is still not as flexible as my way.)

Later, Wally
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mike - across the pond,

alec in chicago... 08/09/2008 02:13:31
well alec...

methinks we are both guilty of not reading what the other posted very well lol

I dont recal that I've ever addressed McCains temper... I think you aimed your response at the wrong person...

personally I dont believe that ANYONE who gets to that level of power has an even temper... I think we should be able to agree that that much ambition doesnt lead to "mother teresa's" it simply takes way too much "alpha" to get a Pennsylvania ave address

JFK... had a fuse...
LBJ was a notorius hot head...
Nixon was paranoid...
Carter, well just take a listen to dear old jimmy....
Ronnie, yep, dont get him hacked off...
GHWB... I dont recall any stories about him... (they could indeed be there.... just nothing sticks with me about him and temper issues)
Bill, Hillary... we've both seen their ill tempers.... I easily could see low orbital objects in the white house... (the mental picture of that leaves me in STITCHES) and not that it wouldnt be warranted...
GWB... dont know that I'd cross him too many times....
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Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 08/09/2008 02:19:37
Do you think that McCain is so deluded that he believes that Palin would woo back those voters? I doubt she could: her lack of ethics and integrity are just more of the same.

What I suspect is that it was to get the religious loonies on their side. That might work, as those phonies don't care in the least about ethics.

You're right about TV. I moved at the end of January, and I still haven't bothered to attach the antenna to my set. I do watch it, but only in its current role as monitor for my VHS and DVD players. (No cable, no satellite: they may offer a bit more, but it's still not enough.)

Later

I can catch PBS online, as well as C-Span and various other news programs.
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Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 08/09/2008 02:24:03
Wow! Talk about sites cropping posts! Don't know hoow that last bit was moved and cropped.

No stranger, I suppose, than their trying to tell me that I had a potentially offensive word in my last comment. The word they displayed was offensive - but it was not in my comment! Ah, well, at least it was posted on my second attempt.
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mike - across the pond,

alec... 08/09/2008 02:56:04
here's a question....

what do you think of congress?

they ran on a "we'll get you out of iraq NOW" campaign... AND LIED to you all...

the dems like to hoot and holler about W's low 20's "approval rating" a few months ago...
congress approval rating has been in the SINGLE DIGITs... I'm sorry, ADOLPH HITLER probably had a higher approval rating...

you claim political astuteness.... hastert has been out of office for 20 months...

"head(s) buried in the trough"... lol alec... HASTERT has his head buried in the trough and if your governor had half the stones of Palin, he'd punch a hole in the bottom of the trough...

my point is...
as mayor palin built roads... a rec center.... and other CIVIC things... CUT TAXES... increased revenues.... yes she DID increase expendetures, but 5% LESS than revenues increase... BUT THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A HINT OF IMPROPER activities there... just some perception of "out of control budgets" and fired political appointiees of her predecessor... which happens ALL THE TIME, and she was found to be within the powers of her office....

as governor, same story... increased revenues, reduced taxes (actually increased tax rebates), got rid of things she didnt think the state needed.... fired political appointees...

back to wally's thing SHE didnt fire wooten... her entourage made it clear to the guy who had the power to fire wooten what they thought should be done... end result is the same... but SHE didnt do it...
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and its not some nefarious editing... its a posting length limit...
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Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 08/09/2008 06:07:55
Mike

You cantinue to prove yourself the biased, vengeful person everyone has come to see you for. neocons do tend to go amok when confronted with discomforting facts.

Congress sucks. Their low approval rating: they have abdicated their proper roles, including keeping the president within the boundaries of his office. Pelosi and Reid belong in The Hague with Bush and Cheney and their entire lot. Of course, I doubt you mind that impeachment is "off the table."

Adolph Hitler had terrific approval ratings, for quite a time. I'm not certain what bearing that has on any other part of your comment.

I don't know what your fixation on Hastert is. Hastert never represented my district. My own rep hears from me often. Want to catch me on an error in past/present? Big deal. Boil me in oil. I already said that I don't carefully proofread. So, public correction: Hastert's district: (14) - so he **wasn't** my local pol. You left out something: Hastert was - and is - a Republican.

Palin put about $15 million into a huge sports complex on land that the city may not have had rights to - and they are still in litigation.

Palin lied about her support for the "Bridge to Nowhere" - and she is currrently spending $375 million on what Alaskans are calling the "Road to Nowhere."

Why do residents of Wasilla ask to remain anonymous when speaking against Palin, and claim that they fear retribution?

Reformer? Hardly. Yet you want to deflect attention from her by bringing up unrelated people. Can't you argue for her based on her own merits? (She hasn't any.)

My statement about part of a comment being moved and cropped referred to what became the last line in #148 - a very short comment and well under the limit. This from someone that wants to suggest that others not reading posts carefully. By the way, as much of your writing is in partial sentences, it is sometimes difficult to figure out just what you are babbling about.

How about a
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Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 08/09/2008 06:15:06
How about a comment on that perfection lecture you wrongfully aimed at me? Or are you hoping that, by ignoring it, it will just go away.

Poor Mike. He's backing a piss-poor candidate that just hasn't got what it takes. Sad, sad, sad.

Go away, Mike, and leave decent people in peace.
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57Nomad,

california 08/09/2008 07:20:00
#78 sandi

sandi said:

"But how many elibible voters are actually registered? If I recall correctly (and I may not!), less than 50% of eligible voters actually vote. It's not a number to brag about, that's for sure."

How many eligible voters are registered? That's a very good question and I don't know the answer to it. Its easy enough to find out though. I'll call the county registrar of voters and find out. I do know this, about 60% of all registered voters turned out for the last national election and I expect about the same amount this year.

Don't forget that a lot of eligible voters are in retirement homes with memory issues and many are college students away from home and can't get to their local polls. Also, and this is obvious to any parent of a teenager(s). The voting age is 18 and very few teenagers turn out to vote even though millions are eligible. If you can't get them to clean their rooms or stop them from running up their cell phone bills by constant texting, what makes you think they will go to the trouble of going to the polls? Throw out the old and infirm and the teenagers and we aren't doing to bad.

It's a pretty healthy turn out percentage for any country.
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57Nomad,

california 11/09/2008 22:49:54
#81 Bikewoman

Bikewoman said:

"m a realist so I have to disagree. Congress holds the checkbook."

Indeed they do. We have no disagreement. My point was this. It is the President who will be held to account for what happens on his watch whether it is fair or not. It the Spanish Flu swept across the continent killing millions, the president would get blamed. Look at Katrina. The entire catastrophe is a product of the Mayor of New Orleans and the governor of Louisiana. But, look who took the blame. I'm not saying its right or its fair, its just the way it is, and the worse thing any president can do in those situations is to make excuses.
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57Nomad,

california 11/09/2008 23:07:39
135 pilrig

Pilrig said:

"70; Nomad - you said "registered voters" what's the percentage of US citizens who are 'unregistered' ?"

That is a very good question and I'm trying to find out. Whatever it is, it is less than the number of registered voters. A registered voter is an eligible person over the age of 17 who has registered with their local Board of Elections. It's a simple as that. Most people hold the opinion that it is slovenly citizenship not to register. Once you have registered, then you are eligible to vote. So, the total number of citizens who may vote is equal to the number of registered voters.

However, not everyone who is eligible to vote, votes. Consequently a poll of registered voters includes many who do not make a practice of voting. This means that irrelevant data is included in polls of "registered" voters. A poll of "likely voters" are those voters who make a practice of voting so their is less "noise" in the polling results. That is why poll of "likely voters" is always more accurate than polls of "registered voters."

My point is this. If one is interested in the ebb and flow of sentiment during these final two months you will see two types of polls. Polls a registered voters and polls of likely voters. If you want the poll that is most predictive of the outcome of the election, then it is the polls of "likely voters" that you want to keep an eye on. This isn't a partisan issue, it's just the way it is.
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57Nomad,

california 11/09/2008 23:20:38
#78 Sandi

sandi said:

"But how many elibible voters are actually registered?"

It works like this. Only registered voters are eligible to vote. Consequently, the number of registered voters and the number of eligible voters is identical.

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57Nomad,

california 11/09/2008 23:39:47
#82

Here is the quote you left out from your own link:

""I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."

Did you catch that?

As for this:

"Your last paragraph was frankly creepy."

Really? Creepy? Here it is:

"Now this: "she will not know her place." What the hell is that supposed to mean? Know her place?!?!?!? She will know her place perfectly. It's called the White House. It's called the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States. It will be called the most powerful woman who ever lived in the history of the human race. Wonderfully enough she will also be known as "mom" and "grandma."

"Know her place," indeed!"

You find that "creepy?" Why, what do you have against strong successful women? Did you find it creepy when Benazir Bhutto was a shoo-in (before AQ murdered her) for the Presidency of Pakistan? Pakistan has nuclear weapons and a population larger than any country in Western Europe. Did you find her, "creepy"? You aren't one of these misogynist, male chauvinist, testosterone poisoned troglodytes are you? You sound like one.

Creepy indeed!

 

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