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Ye Jacobites by name lend an ear... age old slur could be a thing of the past

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Published Date: 13 July 2009
THOUSANDS of Scots and their relatives around the world could soon have a slur lifted that has stood against their names for hundreds of years.
A new campaign has been launched that could see the likes of actor Ewan McGregor – a member of the same clan as Jacobite rebel Rob Roy MacGregor – pardoned for actions that took place centuries ago.

Several hundred nobles were persecuted after Jacobite uprisings in the 18th century, including national hero Rob Roy and Flora MacDonald, who provided shelter for Jacobite leader Bonnie Prince Charlie after his defeat at the Battle of Culloden in 1746.

Certain noble lineages were declared as having a "corruption of blood". There were executions and banishments, and land and titles were taken away.

The new campaign, led by retired banker and heraldry expert Peter Drummond-Murray, has found cross-party support through a motion before the Scottish Parliament.

Mr Drummond-Murray's ancestors had their estates and titles removed but later restored through private Acts of Parliament.

He said many others have gone through the costly process of gaining such acts but an overarching campaign could remove the stain from hundreds of family names with relative ease.

He said: "This I see as doing justice to those who could not afford private Acts of Parliament and reconciliation. I think people are entirely convinced that these honourable men followed their consciences.

"Several hundred were stigmatised as having a corruption of blood and were exiled, largely to North America. This could lift the stigma for thousands of people around the globe."

The campaign, if successful, could restore ancient titles to descendants of earls of Panmure, Southesk and Kellie, as well as the Duke of Berwick.

"Acts of attainder", which branded an individual or group guilty of a crime without trial, were passed 264 years ago, although many were overturned to celebrate the Queen's silver jubilee in 1977.

Jamie McGrigor, a Tory MSP for the Highlands and Islands, lodged a motion at Holyrood backed by colleagues Nanette Milne, Elizabeth Smith and Bill Aitken, the SNP's Maureen Watt, Labour's David Stewart and the former Green leader Robin Harper.

He said the Year of the Homecoming was an ideal time for the move. Mr McGrigor said: "I think the Scottish diaspora do take these things very seriously and it's important Scotland acknowledges that loyalty to family and roots."

He added that the Scottish Parliament could only take the motion so far and it required an Act in the Westminster parliament to clear the Jacobite names.

Mr Drummond-Murray said Prime Minister Gordon Brown could bring in an Act on the matter and it would easily pass with support from all sides.

A spokeswoman for Number 10 declined to comment last night.

SNP MSP for North East Scotland Maureen Watt said: "It is bizarre that these ancient laws are still in existence on the statute book.

"It is about time this historical discrimination was dumped, and what better time to do it than in this year of Homecoming."

PROMISE TO REVERSE DEVASTATING MOVE NEVER KEPT

AFTER 1688, when James VII of Scotland and II of England was replaced by his daughter, Mary II, and her husband, William of Orange, many who refused to swear allegiance to William and Mary, right, and other staunch Stuart support-ers, were tried for treason, executed and "attainted".

Many more went into hiding or into exile, and were punished without trial by parliament passing Acts of Attainder. They lost all civil rights and their property, and, because their blood was held to be "corrupted", their descendants were disinherited.

The intention had been this would be relaxed on the death of the sons of the "Old Pretender", but it never happened. King George IV came to Edinburgh in 1822 and undertook to have the attainders reversed for anyone who so petitioned, but only a handful of peers could afford the procedure of a private bill in parliament to achieve this.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 12 July 2009 11:19 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Homecoming
 
1

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 13/07/2009 00:32:34

It is amazing the old laws that do still exist, here is one of them,

In Edinburgh, It is illegal to drive a taxi, without carrying hay. this is very true and totally bonkers, and of-course, it would be totally laughed out of court, but it is still law as it stands!



2

Fifi la Bonbon,

13/07/2009 00:39:32

Now I know that the Scottish Parliament isn't exactly busy wth proper legislating right now because the present administration has other things to do, mostly involving flags on people's workstations in the National Library, but it isn't completely clear that the situation here is that much of a problem, unless you're the former Earl of Panmure, Southesk and Kellie, or the Duke of Berwick. Or a deluded colonial who thinks he's the righful Duke of Fumbuck, Oklahoma.
3

Brianwci,

13/07/2009 00:43:02
"SNP MSP for North East Scotland Maureen Watt said: "It is bizarre that these ancient laws are still in existence on the statute book."

Totally agree Maureen. Best wishes to the campaign.
4

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

13/07/2009 01:42:30
If we are in the business of righting old wrongs, surely it is time that heir of King James the VIII/III should be given the crowns, lands, titles, castles and palaces etc that are his/her rightful property.

And the Hanoverian Illegals shipped back to Germany.
5

hoblar,

13/07/2009 02:03:06
"This is nothing less than the retroactive re-writing of history, a la Orwell's 1984, and probably not for entirely altruistic reasons either!"

If you wish to challenge the re-writing of history then this a rather weak argument.

You obviously aren't too worried about re-writing history, rather than in particular the restoration of these Scottish titles that in most cases should not have been removed, and of course the slur on the family name that accompanied the removal.

It doesn't really affect me one way or the other to be honest, but are you suggesting these people will be entitled to vast tracts of lands in Scotland?

I thought it was out of a matter of principle.
6

Fifi la Bonbon,

13/07/2009 02:09:47
#6 - I think it has to go much further back than this. At the very least, we ought to be writing in the strongest possible terms to the Italian government about the depredations caused by the Roman imperial forces in their occupation of parts of our country, and seeking compensation for the cost of dismantling the Antonine Wall and other outrages, including ten thousand Caledonian dead at Mons Graupius.
7

williamx,

Canada 13/07/2009 02:18:08
One has to wonder what is in it for Drummond-Moray.
In any event, such procedures were the usual way of dealing with the losers. I doubt that anyone in Scotland or in Canada could care less about this. Many think the Highlanders were the romantic heroes and Scotland the loser when they left in droves to seek a better life else where. Notably, the lairds left behind had not the slightest scruples about creating the Highland Clearances, which today would be called genocide. Part of the deal in 1707 when Scotland vanished was that the "Scottish Elite" were left to control Scotland and Westminster looked the other way so long as a suitable number of Scots were supplied to the British army. Most of Scotland's problems have derived from the Scottish Elite and not the English, however, Scottish history books in my generation were suitably slanted to blame the English. I wonder who authorised the history books- the Scottish Elite in the Scottish Office?
8

The New Scirocco,

The outside lane 13/07/2009 02:25:18
From now on you all may address me as the right royal highness lord Scirocco of Kellie.

am off the claim my rightfull heritage and see if I can start a movement to overturn the abolishment of fuedal duty
9

Julian.,

edinburgh 13/07/2009 02:43:52
#8 Fifi

Should that not be balanced out by the tourist revenue brought in as a result of Hadrian's Wall and various other Roman Ruins:-)
10

Ewan Randall,

13/07/2009 02:44:42
In what way is this going to benefit those persecuted in the eighteenth century?
11

Esox Hunter,

Edinburgh 13/07/2009 03:20:58
Oh dear Maureen Watt has caught Christine Grahame's virus which causes large swellings otherwise known as chips on the shoulder !!

Seriously though what are these people on, repatriating Mary Queen of Scots remains, seizing back Berwick upon Tweed and now this utterly irrelevant twaddle dating back centuries.

Have they nothing better to do and if they haven't why the hell are we paying then to indulge their petty and childish prejudices. The problem is that Salmond has issed a dictat to all SNP supporters to raise any possible topic which might forment disagreement, and judging from some of the comments from SNP knuckle draggers on forums like this there are all too many willing to do his bidding.
12

The New Scirocco,

well passed you by now 13/07/2009 05:51:28
#13

I would hate to be next to you in a pub, light hearted things like this are great to start the week

away and bile yur heid
13

donald,

glasgow 13/07/2009 06:11:27
Compensation is due for the brutal Jackboots that destroyed the Highlands, though twisted Scottish traitors take delight in the carnage and destruction.
14

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 13/07/2009 06:39:38
More bile from "tonald" the trotskyite teuchter.
15

Masterpiece,

13/07/2009 06:49:00
What a load of rubbish.

If they are so interested in doing something positive and worthwhile to combat the destruction of the period in question, then it is time they put their efforts into ensuring that all the children in the Highlands and Islands spoke Gaelic fluently.

Why are so many people looking for empty apologies which mean nothing to anyone born today. How can our generation apoligise for the past to people who are long dead.
16

For Scotland,

Sutherland 13/07/2009 06:50:32
Good another right to correct the wrongs of centuaries,I expect those against it would prefer all lands in Scotland to be under anyones rule except the rightful owners.
While we are about it let us also educate our children in the full facts of the clearances I have had my eyes opened at what went on,sorry a few hundred years or not our children need to know thier real history not the watered down version I was taught.
Having driven around the wonderful county of Sutherland it is amazing the amount of land owned by one person from Laxford bridge right down to Kylesku it is immoral to say the least.
17

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 13/07/2009 06:54:37
THOUSANDS of Scots and their relatives around the world could soon have a slur lifted that has stood against their names for hundreds of years.

That of being called British, in a referendum to be held in 2010 the Scots will have the opportunity to remove the said slur.

so give us the General election ,give us the Referendum and let us be done with this corrupt Union and the accursed Westminster Overlordship.

Now that is how this article should read!!
18

donald,

glasgow 13/07/2009 07:17:41
#16 "Mercutio,
FALKIRK 13/07/2009 06:39:38
More bile from "tonald" the trotskyite teuchter."

Aye and merr tae come for the Thatcherite shameless Labour traitors.
19

Russell M,

Stirling 13/07/2009 07:25:38
"corruption of blood" -- you mean like British pistol shooters in 1997? Does this mean that British Sportsmen will only have to wait another 250 years to get their handguns back?
20

McNasty,

Edinburgh 13/07/2009 07:26:56
#13 Good number?

I like people who hate the SNP.

Hate soon destroys the hater.

21

Masterpiece,

13/07/2009 07:48:50
18
I also drive through Sutherland every month and can see the destruction of the Clearances and the Gaelic language and culture.
Indeed some locals have been so brain-washed that they say that Gaelic was never spoken in East Sutherland; only in the West and North of the County.

There are few people in the Highlands and Islands who do not suffer both economically and culturally because of the destruction of the Clearances through loss of population.

Who are they going to apologise too that are not dead?

22

Navvy,

13/07/2009 07:53:18
I hope that we are not going to re-write history because that is a mark of totalitarian states.

It was civil war and the winner set the rules

Times change and Australians are now proud of being descended from transported convicts. Does that apply in this case?
23

Esox Hunter,

Edinburgh 13/07/2009 08:01:08
#14 Sorry but I don't know which pub you go to where this sort of drivel is the subject of the evening, but I'm glad that I aint there !
24

Sharon D.,

newmarket 13/07/2009 08:21:11
being a MacIntosh I always kind of liked it when my mates call me a F'n Jackabite ,ever since i painted (air brushed) my Harley Davidson compleatly in ''The MacIntosh Hunting Tartan. I wouldn't mind if they stopped saying 'your familey is from the Great Briten ??' pic of bike can be found at www.peacockstudios.com scroll down the side bar to Sharon's Bike....
25

paulr,

edinburgh 13/07/2009 08:22:02
All those families should be proud of the "Corruption of the blood" it proves they were loyal scots.
I would certainly never petition an english parliament or english royalty to return my name to its former standing, I would proudly declare my "Corruption of the blood" for all to see.
26

Sharon D.,

newmarket 13/07/2009 08:23:02
click on pic of bike for larger look
27

jtdx,

13/07/2009 08:28:29
#2: section 51 of the London Hackney Carriage Act 1831 was repealed in 1976. Edinburgh taxi regs incorporate 1976 act, so Hay is not required.

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/internet/Attachments/Internet/Business/Licensing/licences/Taxi/Vehicle/AmendedTaxiPHCLiccondspdf

So, funny story, but sadly its not true
28

Sharon D.,

newmarket 13/07/2009 08:35:15
or if you would like to see larger pics of bike and photos from northern Scotland it can be found on Facebook Sharon.Blanchfield don't for get the . after sharon befor blanchfield
29

Selgovae,

13/07/2009 08:44:23
#8 Fifi

"At the very least, we ought to be writing in the strongest possible terms to the Italian government"

You might have to define the "we" in your sentence. No McGregors or any other late-comer Scots or English have any claim here. On the other hand, descendants of British warriors should have all lands returned. My people have been waiting for this day for centuries. Do you think we should write in Latin?
30

,

13/07/2009 08:47:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
31

,

13/07/2009 08:57:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
32

The New Scirocco,

far away from you 13/07/2009 09:32:49
#25
No need to apologise, on second thoughts you have every need to apologise for your demeaning article which condones telling fibs and spreading mis-information.
33

Boy Wonder,

13/07/2009 09:35:56
In my family's history, being called a Jacobite was not a slur but a title held with some pride.

But at last, I may be able to reclaim my ancestral titles and lands ... and all the 250 years of back-rent owed to me by the thieving English Lord who stole it from my great(x7) grandfather. I think that thief's descendant is called Windsor now!
34

Stevie G,

Paisley 13/07/2009 09:36:02
Nice to know that with the all demands of parliments time to sort out our current problems, their now being asked to bring in retrospective legislation.

The past has gone, what was done was wrong, everyone knows it and its time to leave it be
35

Stevie G,

Paisley 13/07/2009 09:36:41
35 Boy Wonder

Can you prove it or is this just slander
36

Selgovae,

13/07/2009 09:44:45
#33

" pig ignorant bigot" What does that make you?

"I am from an ancient nation"

Not as ancient as mine. Take a look at a map. See that island. It's called Britain, and it was known as Britain long before any Scot or Angle or Saxon came here. And look at the city where you live. It used to be in the kingdom of Strathclyde and had British kings until the 11th century. (Unfortunately, more remembered in Welsh folklore than in Scotland's.) So what, you might ask. And you'd be right to, in exactly the same way anyone should address your "ancient nation" nonsense. Scottish and Proud, what are you proud of, an accident of birth?

I've had to listen to people like you all my life, outpouring their nationalistic bile at any opportunity. And you wonder why Scotland isn't independent. In spite of of people like yourself, I've voted for an independent Scotland at every opportunity. I think it would be a good thing. But I know many who don't because they dislike the self-pitying whinging of the noisiest supporters of independence. Do our country a favour and stop living in the past.
37

mcbogtrotter,

mccalifornia 13/07/2009 09:45:09
Clan Mcgregor will always stand, I can take the slur,as in the US I can take being a Honkie, matter of fact Ive been a Mother f-in Honkie for so long I kinda like it now, it has a nice ring to it, it rolls off the tongue like a good brogue.
The lowlanders who cut a deal with the English can tell the story anyway they want, but the real story of the back stabbing sell outs will be told and passed on.
38

Pomodora,

Gravesend 13/07/2009 09:45:40
Only in Scotland can such nonsense prevail, or is it just a slow news day?
39

neoloon,

Moray 13/07/2009 10:05:22
What about all those whose ancestors were obliged,for their own safety,to change from their clan name to something like Smith?

Scottish,not "British",not "European".
40

as13,

Sunderland 13/07/2009 10:07:44
13 - The problem is that Salmond has issed a dictat to all SNP supporters to raise any possible topic which might forment disagreement

While that may be true - I feel that I should point out that (and you'd know this if you'd read the article above) "Jamie McGrigor, a Tory MSP for the Highlands and Islands, lodged a motion at Holyrood "

Yes that's right.....TORY!!

But don't let that stop your Nat-bashing!
41

Esox Hunter,

Edinburgh 13/07/2009 10:19:30
Yes I know it was a tory who raised the motion but its knuckle dragging nats that are venting their spleens in trying to make everything they can from it. But thanks for the permission to continue to expose the utter pausity of argument which the seperatist movement displays at every turn. I really am very grateful to you.
42

i wear trousers not a skirt,

abolish the scottish parliament 13/07/2009 10:23:47
Bonnie prince charlie was a coward FACT. There too many deluded nationalist on this site who are boring me too death ( i hate the snp and scottish catholic labour party in the west of scotland).Just wish there was a decent political party to vote for.
43

Astarte,

Giffnock 13/07/2009 10:51:57
#40 Pomodora from Gravesend writes,"Only in Scotland can such nonsense prevail" and I rush to tell her "Yes", "Yes" and "Yes" for my country folk are still trying to find their way out of the 17th century.

44

drunken proffet,

Tassy 13/07/2009 11:07:50
Well we have always had a bit of true Aristocracy in Australia. I do not think that any of them would want to come home. Have you seen the kind of guys who are setting the standards for the tourists? Has anyone complained? No, as far as Aristocracy in an independent Scotland, you are definitely on your own.
45

Yeah1,

13/07/2009 11:08:39
#42

"Scottish,not "British",not "European"."

What an insular, parachial attitude. I assume you aren't an SNP supporter considering they would have an independent Scotland as part of the EU, which you wouldn't like considering you apparently aren't European.

Why don't you take your viewpoint to its logical conclusion and declare yourself 'Moraysian (or whatever people from Moray are called) not Scottish, British or European'?
46

scully,

Colchester 13/07/2009 11:12:16


45*

Big Thank you.

You have just given me a vital piece of information, that has made something very clear to me.Who wants the Crown of Scotland. A pink crown encircled with pearls.

Not worth losing your soul for.

God warned the Jews not to have a King. Just to have a leader. But they would not listen they wanted a King. So they Choose David the most just of the Brothers. And what did King David do . He had one of his Soldier captains Killed because he King David was committing Adultery with the officer and Gentleman's wife and she got pregnant. So to save his own miserable ar** He had the Captain murdered. that is when God turned his back on David and cast him out. He went from bad to worse. and finally died in miniserie. See without God he was nothing. I was up in the west of Scotland last year. Fort William Inverness and Sky.My Granddad was Highland Stock




47

Dancer,

Edinburgh 13/07/2009 11:14:05
Franz Bonaventura Adalbert Maria von Wittelsbach Francis II. Will be delighted. When will he be taking over? "Prince of England, Scotland, France and Ireland, Prince of Cornwall and Rothesay".
48

scully,

Colchester 13/07/2009 11:20:01
Sorry. MISERY.

What did I tell you Sottish and Irish Stock, Best of Both Worlds. Celtic. Flavoured to Perfection.
49

scully,

Colchester 13/07/2009 11:24:51


Its all down to those little PIC,S. they got everywhere
50

El Franko,

13/07/2009 11:41:10
PC world. Naughty to say bad things about people, and to discriminate against them for what they have done. But wait, these are aristos, maybe even rightwingers, so they can't be progressive, liberal, leftwing. Off with their heads, and their descendants' heads!
51

Sgian Achlais,

13/07/2009 11:49:30
Titles and Land for the rich is not my concern and these often changed hands through less than honest means throughout history. They all belong to the Crown of Scotland which was abandoned when the English opted for the throne to pass to the 50th or so in line so they could rid their country of the current Scottish Dynasty and Scottish nobles and some Christian interfaith intolerance.

The people who swore allegiance to the undisputed rightful King of Scotland and then sacrificed their lands, families, wealth and status can never have their honour taken away or tainted by the murdering scum that raped and murdered the Highlands and the rest of Scotland.

The same people who tell us it was in the past and to get on with it, forget about it, etc. Are these the same ones who will have sore legs from all the walking they did at the weekend in support of the Hanoverian massacre of their countrymen. Wearing football tops to express their political views. Now if you wanted a distorted view of history based on neither facts not faith head to west central Scotland.

There will always be those who support the strong and the powerful because they want to be on the winning side. There will also be those who through time refused to bow down to German/English power regardless of the personal cost.

One is a British Self Interested Quisling one is a Scottish Patriot.

I am sure the quisling class in Scotland will be quite concerned with the prospect of their families role in Scottish massacres coming to light.

A couple of extended families did very well out of the murder of their Coutrymen, Women and Children. One particular family from Argyll is upto it's neck in Scottish Blood more than any other. They will not relish history being told how it happened rather than how they pretended it happened.

What is right and what is wrong, by the law, is the choice of the victor and our victory is coming.
52

Sgian Achlais,

13/07/2009 12:00:17
45i wear trousers not a skirt, abolish the scottish parliament 13/07/2009 10:23:47
Bonnie prince charlie was a coward FACT. There too many deluded nationalist on this site who are boring me too death ( i hate the snp and scottish catholic labour party in the west of scotland).Just wish there was a decent political party to vote for.

====================================

Well if you are going to use CAPITAL letters then it must be true.

I am no fan of the Monarchy or title and privilege but the rules are quite simple. They go by blood line and neither William nor George has any right to sit on the throne of England nor Scotland.

All historians know that William of Orange was funded by the Pope to stop a UK/French alliance of powerful Catholic monarchs.

King Billy was the Pope's puppet and owed him a vast amount of money for all the battles that were funded by the popes family who were the biggest money lenders in Italy at the time.

At the Battle of the Boyne King Billy was flying the Popes Banner at the head of his troops. His troops were fed by the pope and armed by the pope as the largest contributor and benefactor. This master stroke by his unholyness allowed the UK and France to spend the next couple of hundred years locked in almost constant battle.

The subsequent years of merging history to fit sectarian beliefs on both sides are shameful and condoned by both the British state and the churches. Shame on them all.
53

Yeah1,

13/07/2009 12:01:16
#55

"There will also be those who through time refused to bow down to German/English power regardless of the personal cost. One is a British Self Interested Quisling one is a Scottish Patriot."

Interesting that you discuss those who refused to bow down to German power - especially considering the fact that the SNP split in 1942 after disagreeing about whether they should support the war or not.

Therefore half of those so-called 'Scottish patriots' who were in the SNP at the time were actually willing to effectively 'bow down' to German power and allow them to destroy Europe.

If anyone was a 'quisling' at the time it was those SNP members who refused to stand up to German facism alongside the rest of Britain.
54

AVRENIM,

Montvalent 13/07/2009 12:04:53
#26 Sharon - did you know the oldest Mexican restaurant in Denver Colorado is called Tosh's after the founder Mr. Macintosh.

Also posters should stop calling the royal family Hanoverians. The present Monarch is a direct descendant of Mary Queen of Scots, according to the Royal family tree displayed in many British missions in many countries in which many British Scots still work in voluntary exile.
55

Sgian Achlais,

13/07/2009 12:07:15
39mcbogtrotter, mccalifornia 13/07/2009 09:45:09
Clan Mcgregor will always stand, I can take the slur,as in the US I can take being a Honkie, matter of fact Ive been a Mother f-in Honkie for so long I kinda like it now, it has a nice ring to it, it rolls off the tongue like a good brogue.
The lowlanders who cut a deal with the English can tell the story anyway they want, but the real story of the back stabbing sell outs will be told and passed on.


====================

In fairness to the Lowlanders they were first in line for a kicking when the English did come north. The only ones you can really blame are the ones who betrayed their countrymen and kin for selfish reasons.

These people can be seen clearly in history as they often received great titles and payments. The English were meticulous in recording how many times certain Earl's and Dukes received money.

Take the treaty of the Union the documents are all their for the traitors descendent's to see. Shame does not die with the person but applies to all who share such "Corruption of Blood"
56

Sgian Achlais,

13/07/2009 12:10:46
58AVRENIM, Montvalent 13/07/2009 12:04:53
#26 Sharon - did you know the oldest Mexican restaurant in Denver Colorado is called Tosh's after the founder Mr. Macintosh.

Also posters should stop calling the royal family Hanoverians. The present Monarch is a direct descendant of Mary Queen of Scots, according to the Royal family tree displayed in many British missions in many countries in which many British Scots still work in voluntary exile.

================================
Please see Wiki reference

The House of Hanover (the Hanoverians) is a Germanic royal dynasty which has ruled the Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneburg (German: Braunschweig-Lüneburg), the Kingdom of Hanover and the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland. It succeeded the House of Stuart as monarchs of Great Britain and Ireland in 1714 and held that office until the death of Victoria in 1901. They are sometimes referred to as the House of Brunswick and Lüneburg, Hanover line. The House of Hanover is a younger branch of the House of Welf, which in turn is the senior branch of the House of Este, with all three being offshoots of the ancient Saxon House of Wettin.
Queen Victoria was the granddaughter of George III, and was a descendant of most major European royal houses. She arranged marriages for her children and grandchildren across the continent, tying Europe together; this earned her the nickname "the grandmother of Europe." She was the last British monarch of the House of Hanover; her son King Edward VII belonged to the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha since she could not inherit the German kingdom and duchies under Salic law. Those possessions passed to the next eligible male heir, her uncle Ernest Augustus I of Hanover, the Duke of Cumberland and Teviotdale—the fifth son of George III. In the United Kingdom, after World War I, King George V changed the house's name from Saxe-Coburg and Gotha to the currently serving House of Windsor in 1917. Both dynastic names are offshoots of the
57

JCA REID,

Annan 13/07/2009 12:37:25
There are many commments that I would like to comment on but #58. I don't know where you got this "FACT" about the present queen's link to Mary Queen of Scots. You should visit one of the rooms in Edinburgh Castle & by a window on the right hand side there is the ENTIRE family tree of Scotland's Monarch's.
You will see there is NO connection whatsoever between the Stuarts & Hanoverians. NONE.
The Hanovarians were something like 400th in line for the throne.
You can bimble through the blood lines & find other people with a stronger claim to the throne this present lot!!
58

eeyore,

Fumbuck, OK 13/07/2009 12:39:03
Fifi,

As a Member of the Court of Fumbuck, I take exception to your allegation.


That said, there shouldn't be an apology for the post Colloden times and actions. After almost defeating the English to a point where Scotland could have attained future independence and freedom, our ancestors walked away from victory and were soundly beaten by the English. To the victors belong the spoils. And our ancestors made up for it by becoming the best of the British Army and getting the Empire for them. Our ancestors moved on, and so should we.
59

Sedov,

13/07/2009 12:49:05
# 60. The regime in Germany that you describe was more or less destroyed by the emergence of the Social Democratic Party at the beginning of the 20th century and it lost its effectiveness to have any influence on German politics and life. Only here in Britain do we cling on the outdated monarchy and at this moment in time it matters not whether it is Hanovarian or Stuart or whatever. the history of how we got here is interesting but totally useless.

The British state is the key to emanicipation for the Scottish AND English working classes - because it is not a question of nation states but a question of CLASS.

Only the unity of the working classes in all countries which make up the british state can a new society be built, free of patronage, clans, royalty, lords etc.

Nationalism can never acheive this no matter how " patriotic" you claim to be.
60

Sgian Achlais,

13/07/2009 13:31:22
#64 Malaclypse,

They may have been related but not in what is traditionally thought of as a Royal line. How many people today could claim the Crown of the Dis United Kingdom on the basis that their Great Grandfather was the King.

50 people with a stronger claim to the throne pretty much says it all really.

Once again Westminster corruption and money changing causes chaos down through the years.
61

Selgovae,

13/07/2009 13:45:35
#63 sedov

"free of patronage"

It's been tried. The patronage of the property owners was replaced with the patronage of the party. And what do you know, that patronage favoured "people like us". Romans before Gauls, Russians before Poles, my nephew before yours. As one observant American said, "All politics is local".
62

Sgian Achlais,

13/07/2009 14:03:14
Sedov,

My apologies I thought I was describing the Regime from Germany rather than the Regime in Germany.

63

AtheT,

North of Kelso 13/07/2009 14:42:33
Does this mean the red handed Campbells will get their comeuppance finaly?
64

Jingo,

Edinburgh 13/07/2009 14:52:34
"Who wants the Crown of Scotland. A pink crown encircled with pearls."

Are you looking at the right crown? the last time I saw the crown it was gold.

65

AVRENIM,

Montvalent 13/07/2009 14:59:55
No matter what Wiki says it often tells tha story with the slant of the contributor. The first of the Hanover line to rule in Britain was married to a Stuart, hence maintaining the Scottish connection with the British throne.Motherhood is always a matter of fact. The late Queen mother was a direct descendant of the Thane of Glamis and therefore related to the man who was promoted to thane of Cawdor - see Willie Wagglespike
66

Sedov,

13/07/2009 14:59:57
#66 Selgovae - Patronage in the context of my post and the subject matter means exactly what I describe.

The other issue: "all politics is local" I agree, but not in the subjective, context that you describe but to quote, "we have to fashion our own directions in our own places" - and that in the collective sense thus we can then start to move towards a communist society.
67

hoblar,

13/07/2009 15:24:49
"Er no, they were the closest claimants Parliament was prepared to accept.

You know, beginnings of democracy and all that."

Er, not quite. The beginnings of democracy can be viewed in the Declaration of Arbroath, circa 1320.

When you use the word "Parliament" above you refer solely to the English Parliament rather than 'democracy". (democracy didn't exist then in a modern form.

The Scottish parliament had other ideas about whom we would elect as KIng (albeit protestant, but NOT the English choice) , and this was a major factor into England seeking a union.

Read your history.

By the way, to the clownish remarks about the 'SNP' agenda etc. this was a motion put forward by that most fervent of unionists....a tory! lol

As to the Hanoverian line to the throne, this isn't relevant to today's monarch, they are here, get used to it......but it is definitely true that the person that the English parliament wished to succeed to the British throne was a German who was 51st in line to the throne.

Just like the English Parliament took it upon themselves to invite the Dutch 'King' William to take over the British crown, and the Scots didn't like it or support that idea.

To summarise then, "George I was: FIFTY FIRST in line to the British throne.

Not even in the ballpark as far as claims go.

That is a fact.

68

Jim fae' Leith,

Edinburgh 13/07/2009 15:29:17
Better take it easy on the wishes folks, you don't want us to have the tricolour flying aloft do you?
69

Sgian Achlais,

13/07/2009 16:09:46
#73 Hoblar,

Yeah1
"Er no, they were the closest claimants Parliament was prepared to accept.

You know, beginnings of democracy and all that."
=====================================

I particularly like the democratic way the English waived the right of the Stuarts legitimate claim to maintain the throne based on the fact they were actually the Kings at the time and had been for hundreds of years.

Based on all version of succession used before and after in European History. The Crowning of William Prince of Hanover was without precedent before and after and broke all the rules about the Bloodline of Kings.

The choices were

1.1 Absolute Cognatic Primogeniture
1.2 Agnatic primogeniture
1.3 Agnatic-cognatic primogeniture
1.4 Male-preference Cognatic Primogeniture
1.5 Matrilineal primogeniture
1.6 Uterine primogeniture

Furthermore they passed a law in the English parliament that affect the whole UK with uncharacteristic disregard (lol) for all the other parliaments.

Then handed the Crown to William in return for his leading the military campaign to oust the actual King by birthright and bloodline.

Then the same honourable members of the English parliament reintroduced the rules of Male-preference Primogeniture based on Sophia the Electress future blood line.

It was an illegal act made legal by the corrupt law makers. Making and breaking rules to suit themselves and their religious intollerences. We should not be quoting these people as the founding father of democracy without a tongue wedged firmly in the cheek.

Yeah1 your slanted view of history suits your world view but it does not suit the facts.
70

Sgian Achlais,

13/07/2009 16:27:09
71AVRENIM, Montvalent 13/07/2009 14:59:55
...The late Queen mother was a direct descendant of the Thane of Glamis and therefore related to the man who was promoted to thane of Cawdor - see Willie Wagglespike
============================

I assume you are referring to the Play written by William Shakespeare. You do realise this is not a real account of history.

see http://www.sff.net/people/catherine-wells/Machome.htm

It has some well researched information you may enjoy.
71

Yeah1,

13/07/2009 16:38:16
#75

"Yeah1 your slanted view of history suits your world view but it does not suit the facts."

Are you getting confused? I think you will #73 is a post from Hoblar, so I'm not too sure why you are attributing it to me....
72

McGinty,

Glasgow & Aberdeen 13/07/2009 16:43:24
What Bonnie Prince Charlie did was ill conceived, risky, flawed, dangerous and badly executed. Cumberland's response was worse, and harm was not just limited to the Highlands and the Highlanders. What Patrick Sellar did was brutal, viscious, short sighted and we are still reaping the consequences as subsequent generations have failed to redress the imbalances. The Victorians did well with rail projects, and perhaps the Highland development agencies have occasionally come up with good work, but on the whole and with hindsight, the Highlands have been ill served when outsiders have interfered clumsily. Now we should give what is required, deserved and requested. A decent A9, rail improvements, more powers to Local Councils and for Scotland not treat the Highlands as the Southeast has treated Scotland. If such social and cultural needs are being addressed, then so should economic, financial and industrial needs.
73

Robert Burns,

Ocean Beach (San Diego), CA 13/07/2009 17:44:00
The U.S.A. Constitution bans bills of attainder; we certainly can see why. It's mere rubbish that anyone's estates will be restored long after sold to others. How the U.K. could keep legal feces on its books this long begs for a conservatorship over the State; apparently, it has been too busy ruining the world with empire aspirations and too mentally fragile to let go of its oppressive past. What I am wondering is when being an Hannoverian will become the official aspersion it deserves to be.
74

Satire above all,

13/07/2009 18:03:49
Oi! 49

There is NOTHING parrochial or insular about a Scot wanting to be allowed to be called a Scot and nothing else. Thousands of Scots every are forever in a rush to correct foreign people for referring to them as English or British..."I'm Scottish..." they are always proud to say :-) NOT English (British)

It's people like you who who would like to deny Scots being Scots...but glad to tell you that aint EVER going to happen :-)
75

logic says cancel!!!!,

13/07/2009 18:06:40
would be a start, then get rid of the lords , the monarchy,other old traditions that are keeping us tethered to the past.the 21 century is calling. we might even then be justified in using the Great in great britain again. ha ha
76

Ewen Miler,

Wilts 13/07/2009 18:34:44
Like this Law: some people belong in the 18th Century.

77

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

13/07/2009 18:54:33
#41 JoeMcT - "We Scots can, and have been our own worst Enemies."


I wish I had a pound for every time I have heard a line similar to that...or rather I had never heard it.

The impression one ignorant of world history (the majority) must get, is that alone among the myriad of ethnic groups who have occupied this planet since time began...only the Scots ever quarrelled, plotted and fought among themselves to any great extent.

Often quoted as corroborative evidence of our equally "unique" unsuitability for self-government and the other trappings of Nationhood that everyone else takes for granted.
78

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 13/07/2009 19:21:47
What slur? Jacobites should be proud that their forefathers fought for their beliefs.

I had an ancestor who lost his lands by being involved in the Plot of Ruthvenfield, the one to kidnap one of the James Stewarts at Huntintower, near Perth.

Do you think I care?

Never was any shame in being on the losing side.

79

MattyMat,

So Cal 13/07/2009 19:30:52
Apologies do not undo what has already taken place in history. Vile, evil actions of what man is capable of doing to man should be remembered throughout every generation.
80

,

13/07/2009 19:41:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
81

Snowman,

Whistler, BC 13/07/2009 20:20:07
It is a good thing to have pride in one's country and to acclaim its achievements but reading the preceding comments allows me to agree with #47 Astarte who views the Scots as a people still struggling to leave the 17th century. Forget about the hooligans of the past who wielded claymores with painted faces and the followers of the Poish/French Pretender and be pragmatic, the world will not wait for you to catch up for at present you are just a wee country with multiple problems that are merely a blip on the six o'clock news on a bad news day.
82

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 13/07/2009 20:26:13
89, Snowman. You appear to be a tad out of sorts with Scottish history and present day Scotland.
83

Josiecamp,

San Francisco 13/07/2009 20:55:31
#90 I agree with Snowman who is not out of date with Scottish history and present day Scotland. I love Scotland as a visitor but as a business woman on a mission I find that your term "present day" means a day without change. Frustrating, surely you must see that too?
84

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

14/07/2009 00:42:16
#89 Snowman,Whistler, BC

The six o'clock news you refer to is presumably some other countries six o'clock news...so I fail to see what relevance it's content or the opinions of it's target audience has to me.

To Illustrate my point:

I presume, but don't know for sure that "Whistler" is a town/city/district in British Columbia, the capital of which is unknown to me but if my life depended on it I would probably guess Vancouver.

It is in Canada, to the north or north/west of Alberta(I think), I have no Idea of the size or population of the place, I suppose somewhere between 5,000 and 500,000 sq feet, sq miles and in numbers, though I suspect you may have went metric and share the place with bears,beavers, moose, ice hockey players and the Queen of England as your part-time head of State.

Which means you have a Prime Minister rather than a President, the last one who's name I remember being Treudaux(yes I know that is probably not the correct spelling but looking it up would be cheating).

That is the sum total of my knowledge of the province of BC, which comfortably puts me in the top 10% of UK residents and top 0.1% worldwide, with respect of knowledge of Canada.

Which in the grand scale of things...makes me something of an expert.

I can put my hand on my heart and say...I could not name one single event that has taken place anywhere in Canada over the past Year, though I know lots of things must have happened because it is very Big possibly as big as Russia and has a Population of (I'm guessing) 30 million.

Not even a blip on the(English)six o'clock news though.

85

Rothiemurchus 55,

USA 14/07/2009 04:46:12
As one of those "deluded colonialists" I would like to recognise my ancestors who were hanged at Westminster after the "45" Macintosh, who also have cairns marked on Culloden battlefield, and am now 22 generations removed from the original Scottish Independence in 1328, when my blood relations Robert and Edward Bruce secured that Independence....Bring on the vote!!!
86

Snowman,

Whistler, BC 14/07/2009 08:48:44
#89 you are absolutely correct your knowledge of Canada is abysmal. 750,000 British tourists visited British Columbia (not Canada figures N/A to me)last year and since Whistler/Vancouver is rated the Ski Capital of the world and will host the 2010 Winter Olympics. Three weeks ago the Herald on Sunday (Glasgow) Magazine ran a four page story and Sky TV Sports has been running Ads for the last year you are indeed well out of the loop. The Queen of the Commonwealth is visiting but is not invited to open the Games and a Scottish MP is enraged another news item you missed and since we are the only cuntry in the G8 with stable Banks and no mortgage foreclosures we have the highest rate of immigrants from the United States. Like Josiecamp I too visit Scotland on business and it is a nice friendly and quaint little country with an antidiluvian culture.
87

Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim,

Richmond 14/07/2009 14:00:17
Another statistic about British Columbia is that Scots form the largest ethnic group after the English, according to the Canadian census. Indeed, more Scots live in Canada than in Scotland. Add to that the estimated three million Americans of Scottish descent.
The US Dept of statistics claims that Scots are the most successful imigrants its has ever had in terms of income, business ownership and personal wealth. That's why most of us never return to Scotland, other than for a reminder of why we left in the first place.
88

MacGhillieBhain,

Aberdeen 14/07/2009 20:39:27
It's all water under the bridge now.Nothing can bring things back to what they were. Best to forget it and look forward to a better future.Garnering spite and recrimination does nobody any good.
89

Annlass,

Toronto 14/07/2009 22:51:53
#94 Snowman, in your comment you metion a Scottish MP who is enraged that the Queen has not been invited to open the 2010 Winter Olympics in Whistler/Vancouver. This is so typical of many Scots who still believe that we, like them, are still a colony of England. Does their education system lack the tools to inform them that Canada with a population almost seven times greater than Scotland and, unlike them, has it's own National Anthem, Flag and autonomy with our own MPs, like theirs, who mess around upsetting the citizens and we also have Senators, like their Lords, who sleep in Chambers for $130,00 per yaer. I do agree though that it is a nice wee country to visit for a wee while.
90

Tu Tangata ,

Christchurch 28/07/2009 12:48:05
Not a bad "snow" job. Do you still get upset when taken for an American with that accent - bit like Aussies and Kiwis? Where would you be - without that place south 'o the border. Jump - how high Mr President? {;-)
This "Parcel of Rogues' proposition will create a profitable legalfest for lawyers et al but mean little for the descendents of those abandoned by their blood-sworn chiefs and lairds.
We, in Aotearoa/NZ, have a well funded industry created out of trying to redress grievances and injustices for Maori under our Treaty of Waitangi, little of the millions settled seem to percolate down to those who need it most but the upper part of a feudal hierarchy does very well.
Have an enjoyable Winter Games snowman. With global warming and Vancouver rain it could be your last. Powder's better at 'Snowbird'? {:-)) Even better at Wind River!
Gum biodh eòin Graidh nan Gaidheal filte ri dealbh do Bheatha.
91

visions in Amber,

Kingston Ontario Canada 07/11/2009 20:56:45
I would like to get some help with telling the story of Canada's First Prime Minister. He shares my last name MacDonald, the same Clan Ranald of MacDonald. I don't know if we are related in any direct way, however, I would like the country and the world to know this mans story. I have found 2 reliable sources that say he is half Jacobite. Kingston would like him to remain orange. I think Sir John A. MacDonald had to be many things to make this great geography into a "Nation" Some would like to brand him with negative traits just to keep him "orange" however, he helped refugees and dark skinned people come over the "border". He resisted becoming "American" many of my ancestors fought to stay on this side. These of course are great questions for me. My "Clan" landed in Canada on Prince Edward Islands shores in 1772. I understand that Canada kept much cultural heritage on our East Coast. My family has lost all Gaelic voice, however, the rythum seems to remain in our speach. I am not interested in "claiming" any ones land. This is my country and I would dearly love to visit Scotland. Sir John A. MacDonald moved here when these problems were less "apparent". A "MacDonald" became the "First Amongst Equals" and the first man to do it on Canadian soil. We are not a pennitentiary like Australia started out to be. My ancestors choose to become Candadian as opposed to American. The Jacobite Scottish had much to do with that.

I would like the "House of Hannouver" to hand over the keys to Sir John A. MacDonald, his ghost is not resting well. I believe he is more than an alcholic. I believe he put together this great geographical nation. He was not perfect, he was human and a great Scott. I am far from perfect, my spelling on both sides of the border remains dyslexic. I do however wish to know the importance of the "A" in MacDonald. The "C" in Clan. The other side of the border, ie USA spells Clan "Klan" and McDonald is just a hamburger chain. If a

 

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