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Why a Lloyds TSB takeover of HBOS is bad news for the Scottish high street



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Published Date: 21 October 2008
THE Scotsman is today calling on the Office of Fair Trading to investigate the potentially damaging effect the HBOS takeover will have on Scottish businesses and customers.
It is believed the Lloyds TSB buyout will shrink the number of deals available for mortgages, retail accounts and insurance – and have a disproportionate impact north of the Border. This newspaper is deeply concerned it could leave Scotland with Europe's least competitive banking market.

Based on figures from a Treasury report, the lack of competition in the country already costs Scottish customers between £300 million and £490 million and the takeover would only exacerbate this. It would leave the Scottish banking market dominated by two banks – RBS and the new superbank. This is far more significant than the likely effect on the UK market, which is dominated by the "big four" banks – HSBC, RBS or Natwest, Barclays and Lloyds TSB.

In a letter to the Office of Fair Trading (OFT), Mike Gilson, Editor of The Scotsman, states: "This would result in Scottish banking customers having the least choice and probably paying the highest charges in Britain.

"While this would be unacceptable in itself, it would also place an unacceptable handicap on the Scottish economy, reducing Scotland's capacity for growth and job creation."

Competition rules would normally prohibit such a merger but when the financial crisis hit HBOS, the UK government said it would waive them. Since then, the government has produced a new £500 billion plan to buy shareholdings in banks and give them massive loans.

The Scotsman, joined by many leading Scottish figures, including Alex Salmond, the First Minister, is arguing this has changed the situation and so the HBOS takeover by Lloyds TSB should be reconsidered.

Although the OFT is looking at the impact of the deal on the UK banking sector, The Scotsman believes a separate Scottish-specific investigation should be held. And the call is being backed by politicians and leading businessmen dismayed at the deal.

According to The Scotsman's research, the Scottish market is already almost twice as concentrated – ie has only half the competition – as England and Wales. The deal would make it almost three times as concentrated.

The newspaper's investigation into the effects of the merger has gathered the limited amount of publicly available data on the share each bank has of the Scottish market. It then uses a standard tool – the Herfindahl-Hirschman Index – to judge how competitive the Scottish market is.

When told of The Scotsman's letter to the OFT, a spokesman for Mr Salmond said: "We are entitled to ensure that any merger is in the public interest – that the public won't end up paying for the merger, paying for lost jobs and paying for the restriction of competition.

"Until these questions are satisfactorily answered, then there must be no merger."

Alex Neil, an SNP MSP, said he had also written to the OFT, urging it to look at the issue from a Scottish perspective. He said the way in which the OFT dealt with the complaint would be "a litmus test" of its effectiveness.

Jim Spowart, founder of the internet bank Intelligent Finance, said the takeover would lead to competition issues in retail and business banking, car and home insurance, and mortgages. Backing The Scotsman's call to the OFT, he said: "Scotland is going to be affected because of a lack of choice. We have 50 per cent less of the options anyway.

"There is less of a monopoly problem south of the Border. We have a small population and a huge percentage has a connection with Lloyds or HBOS. The only real alternative is RBS."

As well as reducing competition, he said the merger would be bad for business as it would sever the links which the Bank of Scotland had built up with Scotland-specific industries from its Edinburgh base. This would leave crofters, farmers and oil firms to deal with London-based bankers, perhaps lacking experience of their sectors.

It is open to the OFT to advise against the merger if it feels it would seriously harm competition. Should the government let it proceed, the OFT can also present a case for changes to improve competition, such as advising that part of the merged bank should be hived off into a new company.

The OFT's deadline for comment is Thursday, and a report will be sent three days later to Lord Mandelson, the Business and Enterprise Secretary.

Mr Gilson concludes the letter: "The Scotsman hopes you will agree that there is compelling evidence to warrant conducting a particular examination of the Scottish banking market as part of the report."

An OFT spokesman said of The Scotsman's letter: "We welcome any comment on the merger as part of our investigation."


TO: JOHN FINGLETON

CHIEF EXECUTIVE

OFFICE OF FAIR TRADING

FLEETBANK HOUSE

2-6 SALISBURY SQUARE

LONDON EC4Y 8JX

Dear Mr Fingleton,

The Scotsman newspaper is deeply concerned about the bad effects on competition in the Scottish banking market that will be caused by the proposed merger between Halifax Bank of Scotland (HBOS) and Lloyds TSB. We believe that such a merger would leave Scotland with the most concentrated and least competitive banking market in Britain, perhaps also in Europe.

This would result in Scottish banking customers having the least choice and probably paying the highest charges in Britain. While this would be unacceptable in itself, it would also place an unacceptable handicap on the Scottish economy, reducing Scotland's capacity for growth and job creation.

Our purpose in writing to you is, therefore, to ask that the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) should make a specific study of the Scottish banking market as part of the report that you are preparing for the government on the implications of the takeover. While the government, as part of its response to the current financial crisis afflicting banks, has said it will waive the normal competition rules that would rule out an HBOS/Lloyds TSB merger, the OFT is still duty-bound to report on how this move would affect competition.

The Scotsman believes that the Scottish banking market is quite different from the UK market, which is dominated by the "big four" established banks – HSBC, RBS/NatWest, Lloyds TSB and Barclays – and within which market HBOS operates as a smaller "challenger" bank.

In Scotland, however, the market is dominated by HBOS and RBS, which we believe have about 70 per cent of the overall market between them. The Clydesdale Bank and Lloyds TSB share most of the remaining 30 per cent, while HSBC and Barclays have made little inroads, concentrating only on winning some of the larger business customers.

This quite different market structure, The Scotsman believes, makes a compelling argument for the OFT to produce a separate report on Scotland.

There is, unfortunately, very little information about competition within the Scottish market. The main banks, obviously, have that information, but they have declined to make it available. But what information is available supports the case that there is limited competition already and that the merger will reduce competition even further.

One indicator we can use is the number of branches that each bank has. While not a perfect match for the actual share of the retail banking market (it ignores internet banks such as Intelligent Finance, also owned by HBOS, and banks run by supermarket firms such as Sainsbury's), it does give a rough approximation.

It shows that the retail banking market is dominated by RBS and HBOS, with Clydesdale and Lloyds TSB having relatively small shares. If Lloyds TSB takes over HBOS, the market will become even more concentrated in the hands of two big banks.

This would be a virtual duopoly. We know just how unacceptable this is, because we can use a standard economic tool, used by the OFT and others, to judge the degree of market concentration. This tool, called the Herfindahl-Hirschman Index (HHI) gives a good idea of when a market has become too dominated by big firms.

When applied to the market share of the banks in Scotland, as estimated by the number of branches they have, the index turns out to be 2530. This is well in excess of the HHI figure for the UK personal-account banking market of 1410 reported in your July 2008 report on UK banking. In our view, this justifies a separate investigation into the Scottish banking market.

The change in the index which would be caused by an HBOS/Lloyds TSB takeover, an increase of 1043 points, is more than 20 times the increase cited in your guidelines (50) which would raise competition concerns.

And the index figure which would be created by the merger – 3573 – points to an unacceptably concentrated market.

These figures can be criticised as being based on a rough-and-ready estimate of market share. But The Scotsman believes they are in the right ballpark. The only other publicly available information on the Scottish banking market we have been able to find is in the Cruickshank report, commissioned by the Treasury and published in 2000.

It contains some information on the banking market for small and medium-sized companies. It shows the same pattern as portrayed by the bank's branch networks: a market dominated by RBS and HBOS, with Clydesdale and Lloyds TSB some way behind. A Lloyds TSB takeover of HBOS would distort the market still further, creating, in effect, an unacceptable duopoly.

The HHI for this banking market emphasises the point. Before any takeover, it is at 2780, which is a high degree of market concentration. Indeed, the Cruickshank report found that Scotland had the most concentrated business market of any part of the UK. A combined Lloyds TSB/HBOS bank would see the HHI shoot up to 3868 and leave Scottish businesses with the least competitive business banking service in the UK.

The Cruickshank report estimated that the cost to UK consumers, in terms of charges being higher than they should be in a properly competitive market, was between £3-5 billion. Allowing for inflation, and Scotland's share of the UK economy, it means that Scottish customers were being overcharged between £300-490 million by their banks. In an even less competitive market post-takeover, that cost is bound to rise further.

It is open to you, we understand, to advise Lord Mandelson, the Secretary of State for Business and Enterprise, that the merger should not proceed if it creates unacceptable competition concerns. We also understand that the government may well authorise the merger as the best way to ensure stability in the British banking system. If so, it is also open to you to advise that a de-merger of part of the HBOS/Lloyds TSB bank, perhaps the Bank of Scotland portion, should be considered in order to improve competition. The Scotsman believes, in view of the evidence we have compiled, that this should be considered.

In any event, The Scotsman hopes you will agree that there is compelling evidence to warrant the conducting of a particular examination of the Scottish banking market as part of the report on how this takeover will affect UK banking.

We look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,

MIKE GILSON

EDITOR

THE SCOTSMAN


CASE STUDY
How controversial deal could add up to net loss for thriving town


THE picturesque town of Bridge of Allan, in Stirlingshire, boasts a bustling main street replete with traditional staples and more modern businesses.

Two banks stand opposite each other. On one side of the road, HBOS. On the other, Lloyds TSB.

If the merger of the two giants is approved, Bridge of Allan will almost certainly lose the presence of one of them.

And while there will still be a branch in which to process transactions, the range of products on offer is likely to be greatly reduced. The superbank will only have the Royal Bank of Scotland branch up the road to compete with.

Douglas Ross, of Bridge of Allan Merchants Association, said:

"I think the concern is the lack of competition. If you are down to two banks, then it is a bit restrictive."

Bridge of Allan is also the closest point for those who are attending Stirling University, meaning that the choice of student accounts to which next year's intake can look forward may be drastically reduced.

Political consensus builds against tie-up – but Standard Life renews backing
LINDSAY MCINTOSH

COUNCILS and pension funds with shares in HBOS and Lloyds TSB are being called on to vote against the proposed takeover.

Alex Neil, an SNP MSP, has written to his party's local leaders across Scotland urging them to take a stand.

In the letter, he states that for reasons such as loss of jobs and competition, "it makes sense to veto this merger and stop all this damage being done to Scotland".

He wants them to apply pressure on council factions with shares in either of the banks to come out against it.

Meanwhile yesterday, Margo MacDonald, the independent MSP, called on Edinburgh's Labour MPs to question the deal.

In an open letter, published today in The Scotsman, she states: "The banks and other financial institutions together create the critical mass that has enabled Edinburgh to attract a wide spectrum of companies with their decision-making personnel based here.

"The proposed merger/takeover of HBOS by Lloyds TSB will endanger this, as Edinburgh's prestige and credibility as a major financial centre will not survive the loss of corporate functions from The Mound."

She adds: "I fully appreciate your duty to support your government and the constraints placed on you by loyalty to your leadership, particularly at a time of political tension, such as now.

"But if you share my concerns about the effect of this takeover on the lives of our constituents, will you approach Gordon and Alistair and ask them to review the likely outcome of the takeover in the light of changed circumstances since they first moved to prevent the collapse of one or both of the banks?"

However, the head of investments at Standard Life Investments, which has a major stake in both parties, further strengthened the Edinburgh-based institution's backing for the deal.

Euan Stirling said: "I think the deal certainly works for both sets of shareholders and most of the stakeholders involved.

"The terms were reached in order to avert further problems in the market for HBOS and, from an HBOS perspective, I think you would need to have a huge appetite for risk to want to see it trading independently again.

"But I also think that Lloyds has made a very good case for the value that accrues to it from the deal."

Mandelson puts family-friendly reforms on ice because of downturn
ALAN JONES

THE government sparked controversy yesterday when it announced it was looking "afresh" at the cost of new employment rights, including family-friendly reforms.

Lord Mandelson, the Business Secretary, was warned that delaying rights – such as the extension of flexible working – because of the economic downturn would send out the "completely wrong message" and risk hitting the UK's competitiveness.

Ministers were told flexible working could deliver a competitive advantage by improving workers' productivity and attracting the best staff.

The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development sent out a strong message of support for the expansion of flexible working to parents of children under the age of 16, rather than six at present.

Jackie Orme, its chief executive, said: "The existing right to request flexible working is a model example of light-touch regulation that has helped to change attitudes without causing difficulties for businesses.

"Our research shows that many firms, large and small, are going well beyond the existing regulations in any case, extending flexible working to many more employees than required by law.

"They recognise the positive impact flexible working policies have on their businesses," added Ms Orme.

A spokesman for the Business Department said: "The government is absolutely focused on helping business, particularly small business, to cope with the current economic downturn."

Treasury borrowing of £38bn is highest since Second World War
ROSS LYDALL

NATIONAL borrowing has soared to its highest level since the end of the Second World War, in a clear sign that the UK economy is struggling.

The Treasury borrowed some £37.6 billion over the first six months of the current financial year, a 75 per cent rise on the same period the previous year and the largest amount since 1946, official figures showed yesterday.

The sum was just over £5 billion short of the £43 billion the Chancellor, Alistair Darling, had budgeted to borrow throughout the entire 2008-9 period and comes before the country is expected to officially tip into recession.

The money was needed to finance rising unemployment benefit claims as people lost their jobs, and in recognition of the fact that less money than planned was heading to the Treasury in tax receipts as the economy slowed down. The government has also signalled it will bring forward spending on major infrastructure projects, such as train lines in London and new schools and hospitals in England, to ensure firms' order books remain busy.

The borrowing figures, published by the Office for National Statistics, also showed that between April and September, net debt had soared well above the government's 40 per cent target to 43.4 per cent.

By the end of September, debt stood at £645.3 billion, including that taken on by the government when it nationalised Northern Rock. Figures on Friday are likely to confirm the country is tipping into recession.


The full article contains 2944 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

,

21/10/2008 00:39:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Guga II,

Rockall 21/10/2008 00:54:17
It makes a very pleasant change for the Hootsmon to be standing up for Scotland and the Scottish people. Let's hope they support the next step, independence for Scotland.

The main problem is still Maggie Broon (a.k.a Toom Tabard), who is trying to destroy the Scottish economy as a punishment to the Scottish people for having the temerity to vote for the SNP. This Quisling is quite prepared to sell Scotland down the river for his own political ends.

Hopefully, the people of Glenrothes will make sure he knows that the Scottish people consider him treacherous, spiteful, incompetent, a liar, a charlatan and a war criminal.

3

,

21/10/2008 00:58:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

Oldnat,

21/10/2008 01:08:23
TommyKaye

You are quoting a Spectator blog in totality. It would have been at least polite to acknowledge the source.
5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 01:15:10

NEVER MIND THE!,..

"damaging effect the HBOS takeover will have on Scottish businesses and customers"

WE THE CUSTOMERS! were 'Hit'! for £40.00 a throw for every Penny overdrawn by only second past pay-time,

THINK WE HAVE SYMPATHY,? THINK AGAIN!!!
6

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 01:46:11


bring them on ~9,

Maybe the 'Nutter-Shoot' has been certified, by an under year's olds certificate!

One will have to look in the 'Early Learning Store' for more! :))
7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 01:47:03


bring them on ~9,

Maybe the 'Nutter-Shoot' has been certified, by an under 3year's olds certificate!

One will have to look in the 'Early Learning Store' for more! :))
8

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 21/10/2008 01:51:39
Have the editors at the Malaysiaman lost their minds? Supporting Scotland and the road to Scottish independence?
Call in the trick cyclists. One clearly has flown over the McCookoo's nest.
9

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 01:53:08




Slating a Bank, that have brought misery to thousands by unfair charges, is all one can expect, in times like these.



10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 02:05:48


bring them on ~15,

They could call him,....'Tufty-Heed'! :)

Shame! Why was one elected, in the first place,?

Terrible Move for the Scottish People!

BY GOD! If I was "elected" for Scotland, believe ME!,..

I Would make it one of TRUE Brilliance!

AND A PLACE, TO BE BE CONTINENT WITH, AND PROUD TO BE SCOTTISH!!

Not Like the some, that put the,..'Death Sentence' on Scotland!

'LONG LIVE THE REVOLUTION!!
11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 02:11:17


PrimcessFionam ~20,

"On yer case, Chuck-Jaffa-Baby-Gravy"

Dinny give a,..'F', you know I speak truths!, is that scary for you?
12

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 02:20:54

PrimcessFiona ~25,

Your a,..'Laugh-a-miute'! :D,

Been reading too many of my posts have we,?

That comment wasn't funny, but I take it in my stride.
13

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 02:25:09

PrimcessFiona ~26,

Why are you on my case, do I interest you,?

Must be!, don't mind the slagging BTW, it enthrals me, :))
14

Guga II,

Rockall 21/10/2008 02:30:09
#14 Roofarse Blowfly/bring them on.

We all know your qualifications to comment:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/MoD-files-record-nearmiss-between.4607607.jp

11 bring them on,20/10/2008 05:00:56

"I am the only poster who has been on board a UFO and chatted with the aliens?"


15

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 21/10/2008 02:32:27
Aye Bring them on, Brown can account for every penny, ya halfwit, read on to the latest dippy.

"Alistair Darling has become the first Chancellor in history to borrow at a rate of £200 million a day as the economy heads into its first recession since the early 1990s.

Despite this, Mr Darling has said that he is prepared to spend his way out of trouble and will raise public borrowing further if necessary. Experts warned that the money would eventually have to be paid back in the form of higher taxes or lower spending for future generations.

Research from the Centre for Policy Studies showed government debt has now climbed to the equivalent of £75,984 for every household.

The Treasury borrowed £8.1billion in September and has now borrowed £37.6billion in the first six months of the financial year, according to Treasury figures. Both totals are records. The increase in borrowing is the fastest since Government records began in 1946.

The sharp increase left Mr Darling's forecasts of £43?billion of borrowing this year in tatters. The figures do not include the estimated £37billion the Government is spending on its banking bail-out package.

Experts said that Britain was on course to suffer as big a budget deficit as Denis Healey generated in 1976 before having to be bailed out by the International Monetary Fund.

The steep rise was a direct result of the financial crisis, with the Government's receipts of taxes from bankers and financial institutions dropping sharply while its spending on the state and benefits for the growing ranks of the unemployed rose. The difference has to be made up by extra borrowing.

Gordon Brown told MPs yesterday that borrowing in times of economic uncertainty was the "right policy" despite the sudden deterioration in the country's budget.

The Prime Minister reeled off the debt positions of the other leading G7 countries to claim that Britain was better placed than others to be able to borrow now.

He said: "T
16

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 02:33:04


PrimcessFiona ~28,

"Are you ~~~ less?"

I Certanlty Hope Not!

DYW wants our Babies! :)

Mind you! unlike, "Salmond", I am realisic in expectations!
17

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 21/10/2008 02:35:08
Coninued for Bring them on.


He said: "The UK cannot insulate itself from this global downturn. But with interest rates low and falling, inflation expected to come down over the next year, these underlying economic indicators make us stronger than at any other previous downturn."

Later this week figures are expected to show that the British economy shrank in the third quarter, the first contraction since 1992, leaving the country one step away from an official recession.

Michael Saunders, an economist at Citigroup, said that any extra borrowing would have to be paid back in the future. In the early 1990s, the Conservative government borrowed more and, after the 1992 election, had to raise taxes. He said: "The cheers that accompanied fiscal loosening in the recession turned to dust as the full deterioration in the fiscal position unfolded."
18

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 21/10/2008 02:39:55
Just a wee bit more for "Bring the Halfwit on"

"The UK national debt is the total amount of money the British government owes the private sector.

At the end of August 2008, UK National debt was £637.4 billion. (or 43% of National GDP) - Source: Office National Statistics [1]

Graph Showing UK National Debt


National debt UK


National Debt as a % of GDP has increased from 30% in 2002 to 36 % in 2007. This was despite the long period of economic expansion. It is primarily due to the governments decision to increase spending on health and education. There has also been a marked rise in social security spending.

National Debt has increased sharply in the past 12 months because of:

Slowing Economy (lower tax receipts, higher spending on unemployment benefits)
Financial bailout of Northern Rock and other banks.
Although 43% of GDP is alot it is worth bearing in mind, that other countries have a much bigger problem. Japan for example have a National debt of 194% at the height of their recession. [See other countries Debt] [ . The US national debt is close to 65% of GDP.

National Debt and Financial Bailout
(updated)

The Nationalisation of Bradford & Bingley and Government purchase of shares in major banks like HBOS will cause even more borrowing. It is estimated National debt will rise to 45% of National Debt by April 2009

It is way above the government’s sustainable investment rule of 40% maximum


What is the Real Level of UK National Debt?
However, it is argued that UK’s national debt is actually a lot higher. This is because national debt should include pension contributions which the government are obliged to pay.

The Centre for Policy Studies argues that the real national debt is actually £1,340 billion, which is 103.5 per cent of GDP. This figure includes all the public sector pension liabilities such as pensions, Private Finance Initiative contracts e.t.c (Northern Rock liabilities). However, these liabilities are not thin
19

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 21/10/2008 02:42:52
Continued For Bring that in,



The Centre for Policy Studies argues that the real national debt is actually £1,340 billion, which is 103.5 per cent of GDP. This figure includes all the public sector pension liabilities such as pensions, Private Finance Initiative contracts e.t.c (Northern Rock liabilities). However, these liabilities are not things the government are actually spending now. Therefore, there is no need to borrow for them yet. It is more of a guide to future public sector debt.

Another problem is that with the financial crisis, the government have added an extra £500bn of potential liabilities. Note: the Government has offered to back mortgage securities. They are unlikely to spend this money. But, in theory the government could be liable for extra debts of upto £500bn. If we include this bailout package as a contingent liability National debt would be over 100% of GDP.

Problems of National Debt

Interest Payments. The cost of paying interest on the government’s debt is very high, at least £30billion a year.
Higher Taxes in the future.
Crowding out of private sector investment / spending
The debt problem will only get worse as an ageing population places greater strain on the UK’s pension liabilities.
20

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 02:49:44


#31,

Not funny and quite frankly sick!
21

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 21/10/2008 02:52:28
Interest Payments of 30 billion a year. That as much as Scotland gets for its whole nation. No wonder our transport system is stuffed.

The London Budget for the Armed Forces has just been increased from 34 billion a year to 37.7 billion a year.

Now how many mortgages would that save in Glenrothes?. How many council houses would you get for that 37.7 billion?.. How much heating would that provide for Scotland sick and older Scots?.......Vote for Gordon Brown, you've got to be joking.....Vote for your own kind and get us out of this loony farm that goes by the name of the un United Kingdoms.....Bring Flowers to the funeral, its dead.

Saor Alba
22

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 21/10/2008 03:01:32
Unlike you ponce, I do not need to work, even though I have majority interests in two companies. You see I worked very hard for my lot. Any decent businessman/women wouldnt entertain folk like you. You sit on the sidelines, having digs at people you dont even know ya little snot.

If you ever want to come out from behind your name and be a man, just let me know. I'd enjoy breaking someone like you. Now get of your mothers breest and get a spine. Or I'll tell you what, I'll bet you every penny you have got, that your some little weed that does nothing for Scotland except waste good oxygen. How about Heads or Tails for everything youve got weed.
23

Maisie from Morningside,

21/10/2008 03:01:38
..."and have a disproportionate impact north of the Border."

I'd prefer it if you'd call my country by its proper name - SCOTLAND.
24

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 03:06:54


bring them on 43,

Cant let that one "go" as it was a very serious remark on a current issue.
25

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 03:16:44

bring them on ~51,

Ok! thanks for the chat and undersanding, see ya larer.
26

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 21/10/2008 03:17:19
The difference between you and I besides spine, is I dont need to be cordial, I choose to. I give help to my Scottish People, because I put back into the community I live in.

What do you do for Scotland except put it and its people down. Your type make me feel like puking. You probably sit round with whatever friends you think you have and moan about this and that, then carry on to deride people that think you are their friend.

Your nothing and thats why you think those that have need to be cordial. Now do your country and yourself a big favour and put the mirror down. Try looking at the world from others point of view you might actually like it. I doubt it but try it anyway.Have a drive throughout Scotland and perhaps you will thank god your lucky enough to be smart enough to help a few of them, instead of knocking them.
27

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 21/10/2008 03:24:44
Charles you strike me as someone who comes on these boards for the same reason as Bring Them On. You dont put people down generally other than yourself when you are seeking attention from those that will give it to you. If thats all your on here for then fair enough, try getting involved with something more substantial than yourself and just perhaps things might seem better than you sometimes perceive them. Have a nice day Charles.
28

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 21/10/2008 03:46:26
A better way - your wasting your time on them both - they are both oxygen thiefs.

Whenever I see a post from Charles I just scroll past it as I'm sure most others do - incoherent ramblings at best - I would suggest he's 70 plus, just worked out how to use a keyboard in the last 18 months and this is his new hobby.

As for bring them on - he's a different variety again- an A-class fandan, more spiteful than Charles and just out to noise people up. I haven't actually seen him ever make a point.

He's obviously posting from night shift (stealing his bosses time) or from the antipodes due to his posting times. Loving your country from afar and trying to be constructive about it is one thing, disliking it from afar and creating disharmony amongst those debating it is the pits. He is the dregs.

29

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 21/10/2008 03:49:33
LOL #56

PM's don't do By Elections then? - they get their wifes to do it.

Big Gordy getting blootered at the last chance saloon it looks like.

30

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 21/10/2008 04:18:25
#37 BTO
"Shorter posts would be better."
Or less frequent in your case. Since you don't have anything to say

BTO Summary:

"Charles,Just hand out all the money now, to whoever gets there first. Have a big party for a while, and then Scotland disappears. Salmond- It would be a good party, but the hangover might need more than a wee Alka Seltzer. Disappointed that there is no photo of Salmond to poke fun it today. Or is there? Biscuit or fruit?Brown- can account for every penny to be raised and spent, hence enabling the books to balance. Salmond- let's just spend it all, nae taxes, and I'll pass round the hip flask. Which makes more sense...... Charles,An airship with a huge picture os Salmond on it to speed around the skies of Glasgow and Edinburgh and cloudless weekends. What a sight that would be. They could let him fly it sometimes, too. Charles,The staff were always rude, and not very good looking (Miss Jones excluded)Disgrace. Which part of Central Africa are you from? Charles,Hand out Tufty heid wigs at campaign rallies. Salmond always seems to enjoy a "wee laugh". Does he have a secret. Is it kept "close to his hip" by any chance? Never been to Disney land? You poor hard working fellow. Try to get out more, and take up an interest. Kite flying, or airship watching. Start easy, and work your way up. Salmond likes a game of crazy golf, for example."

This is an excerpt from a soon to be released Penguin Book.

The Impotent and the Irrelevant.
The collected ramblings of Charles and BTO
31

Talorthane,

21/10/2008 04:37:56
I would like to applaud the Scotsman for its efforts in this matter.

There are times when party political point scoring are inappropriate.

The Scotsman has shown itself to have an interest in the nation's (Scottish) interests at heart.

Sadly, the Herald found itself to be incapable of doing the same.
32

Royster,

21/10/2008 04:45:55
I think the Scotsman is missing the point. What is important to the customer is the cost of the mortgage. A small bank cannot offer the same deals as a big bank because its own cost of funding is usually higher and its deposits are fewer. It's a bit like Tesco versus the corner shop. We could have an independent Bank of Scotland but customers would probably go elsewhere as it would be cheaper at HSBC or RBS.
33

,

21/10/2008 04:58:23
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34

Dave B,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 05:11:44
Labour would rather deny HBOS temporary assistance, like the other troubled banks, and push through the Lloyds takeover.

And many Labour figures seem to be secretly rejoicing at the banks problems.
They would rather Scotland became poorer, in the hope that it will reduce aspirations for independence and self reliance.

Don't they understand why they were voted out in Scotland for a party seen as standing up for our interests ??
35

Calvinist,

21/10/2008 06:02:36
The 'love-in' between The Scotsman and Salmond over this issue is a thing wondrous to behold. But the question surely must be: why adhere to a stone-age version of economics that is now thoroughly discredited? We have had the argument that 'competition' is an essential component of a healthy economy rammed down our throats for the last 30 years. Did these failed banks not compete? Did this not lead to the unbridled greed and profligacy that resulted in their downfall? The hypothesis that competition is an essential component of a successful economic model is, at best, unproven. Now that we have semi-nationalised banks what about a new model that involves cooperation instead of competition? It's time to question these unfounded assumptions not defend them.
36

donald,

glasgow 21/10/2008 06:47:26
The Unionist media in Scotland is schizophrenic.
37

billengland,

21/10/2008 06:50:55
"there is compelling evidence to warrant the conducting of a particular examination of the Scottish banking market"

Absolutely. The Scottish leadership of the UK has just had to bail out the inept Scottish Banks to the tune of £500bn of UK taxpayers money - (The Royal Bank of Scotland, Halifax Bank of Scotland and Lloyds TSB (A Scottish company since merging with Scottish Widows)).

A luxury we cannot afford; the sooner the UK gets independence from Scotland the better.

38

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 21/10/2008 07:23:12
Start you own bank from scratch, call it Scottysave or something really trendy, allow it to lend to Scottish businesses without much thought of risk or repayment, let those businesses conquer the world and then not worry when they expose you to unnecessary risk.

Oh, just realised that is what happened already, sorry for building your hopes up.
39

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 07:28:21
"#68 Calvinist,21/10/2008 06:02:36
The 'love-in' between The Scotsman and Salmond over this issue is a thing wondrous to behold."

The cynic in me is screaming that the Scotsman is doing this for reasons other than the good of the Scottish economy:

http://www.allmediascotland.com/spike/3103/03102008/Scotsman_Website_Enjoys_Numbers_Hike_from_HBoS_Saga

This is much about their advertisers and readership than anything else.

40

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 07:33:29
The biggest joke about all of this is the complaint about the effects on competition.

There has not been real competition between the high street banks in a very long time - not since the larger institutions started to swallow up the smaller ones. In any case, even if this had not happened, there is still the issue of the collusion that goes on between banks to rig things in their favour - just witness their united stand on the issue of bank charges.
41

,

21/10/2008 07:36:56
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42

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 07:46:42
75 Quisling Gogs
"I can imagine them discussing their successes in destroying Scottish jobs and sharing ideas on how to drive Scotland and it's people into the dirt."

And no doubt Gordon Brown said that he was so determined to do this that he spent £30bn on saving their banks.
43

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 07:47:03
#75 Interesting name - pity you don't know your history.

The word quisling and traitor seems to be thrown with gay abanadon by some nats on these threads - usually because someone dares to disagree with the SNP line.

Their Stalinist behaviour makes the most democratic centralist look like a wishy-washy liberal.

Attacking the SNP because of their piss-poor policies is not the same as attacking independence - it's about time some people realised that. I honestly believe an independent Scotland could be a successful economic entity - but not with any of the shower of politicians we have at present.
44

jtdx,

21/10/2008 07:48:24
If Tesco offers mortgages and HBOS dissapearers then there are the same number of mortgage offers no?
Maybe the government could try to support new entrants into the market instead of propping up the currnt bunch of idiots!
45

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 07:55:56
#80 Are you as cynical as I am about this "campaign"?
46

,

21/10/2008 07:57:09
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47

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 07:58:22
"#82 BTW, i think the UK could be successful but not with the piss-pot rubbish unionist politicians we have now."

I agree with that as well. That's why I said "ANY of the shower of politicians we have".

The SNP pretend that somehow their policies would be fundamentally different from those operated by NuLabour at a UK level.

They would not be.
48

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 08:00:11
#85 I should have said ECONOMIC policies - I am sure that some of their social policies would be different.
49

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 08:04:23
There seems to be one aspect of this whole issue that the Scotsman is not considering. They claim that the recapitalisation HBOS is sufficient for it to stand on iys own. But others have pointed out that the problem with HBOS is liquidity. Whatever the case may be it would appear that bailing out HBOS and Lloyds TSB as separate banks would cost more.

The govt is already forking out £37bn at a time of high national debt. Does the govt not have a duty to get the best deal it can for the taxpayer.
50

J McAllister,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 08:08:19
"It is believed the Lloyds TSB buyout will shrink the number of deals available for mortgages, retail accounts and insurance."

What? NO! NEVER! I simply don't believe it! Quick, tell everybody!

BUST, BAILED-OUT BANK IN "REDUCED SERVICES" SHOCKER!

I would never have guessed that a bank that annihilated its own capital base by jumping aboard the credit, housing and asset bubble of the last ten years would have to lend conservatively to rebuild its shattered tier 1 capital having been bailed out by the taxpayer and another firm. It's AMAZING.

Hey, maybe if the Scotsman hadn't acted as a cheerleader for the illusory boom based on invented money, somehow failing to heed every warning sign and two dozen examples of clear historical precedent, this stupid bank might not have got itself into such trouble.

The Scotsman is a truly unbelievable paper. Helps fan the flames of the "we're all getting money for nothing and it'll never stop, ever, hooray!" puerile idiocy, and then starts bleating when the music stops and the fun comes to an end.

Your paper is a disgrace, and you should reflect upon the fiscal incompetence of your journalists. Perhaps, like Gordon Brown, you like to think of this whole affair as an unforeseeable exogenous shock. It wasn't. It was utterly, utterly predictable to anyone with half a brain and a penchant for independent thinking.

Oh, by the way, have you realised yet that Edinburgh prices are going to fall at least 30% from their current levels? Just thought you should know, so you won't have to sit through that particular "shock" with your mouths agape.
51

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 08:12:45
83 Quisling Gogs
"If anti Scottish Gog's gets his way then it's reported that up to 100,000 jobs will go in Scotland".

How can the merger of Lloyds TSB and HBOS result in 100,000 job losses in Scotland when the total number of HBOS employees in the whole of the UK is only 57,000?

"It certainly won't be the Bank of Scotland which will be wiped off the face of the Earth."

Lloyds TSB have stated that they will keep the name bank of Scotland and the offices on the Mound. They will operate in Scotland under the BoS brand.

You do not further your argument by making ill-informed, hysterical accusations such as these.
52

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 08:15:10
89 The Spook
"Gordy Broon will do anything to harden up his "Middle England vote"

like spending £30bn to save banks with HQ in Scotland.
53

brownlie,

21/10/2008 08:23:55
94 The Spook

Morning, Spooks, my, we are in a bad mood this morning.

I have nothing sensible to say today - so I'm not saying anything - I hope this is contagious.

PS Was it a penalty????
54

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 21/10/2008 08:31:53
Ugly George

The 100,000 job losses in Scotland was quoted by Jim Spowart, founder of the internet bank Intelligent Finance, on Politics Scotland.

That is because of a collapse in business for accountants, ad agencies, IT service industry etc.

So Jim Spowart is hysterical and ill-informed?
55

,

21/10/2008 08:33:04
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56

,

21/10/2008 08:34:31
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57

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 09:07:53
97 Quisling Gogs
"What utter crud. The new name will be Lloyds Halifax"

Have you studied the details. Whatever the name of the overall company may be they can keep brand names. The Clydesale Bank was taken over by an Australian bank years ago but still keeps the name. Lloyds TSB have said they would still issue BoS banknotes. Why would they do this if they intend to have BoS "wiped of the face of the Earth". Please check details before you resort to abusive terms.

"It's not just banking jobs that will go but tens of thousands in the businesses that rely on the bank like call centres which will be outsourced to India."

The Bank call centres are staffed by employees of the bank. As I said, the total number of HBOS employees is only 57,000. Any other staff are employed by other companies and would therefore be subject to the decisions of that company - exactly the situation which pertains at the moment.

You really don't know much about what is going on do you? You appear to be trying to portray this as some anti-Scottish conspiracy to deliberately ruin the Scottish economy. Then when facts and details are presented to you which do not conform to your preconceived views, you merely resort to crude terminology like "crud" and "scum"
58

,

21/10/2008 09:12:25
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59

subrosa,

21/10/2008 09:20:09
Royster, 21/10/2008 04:45:55
I think the Scotsman is missing the point. What is important to the customer is the cost of the mortgage. A small bank cannot offer the same deals as a big bank because its own cost of funding is usually higher and its deposits are fewer. It's a bit like Tesco versus the corner shop. We could have an independent Bank of Scotland but customers would probably go elsewhere as it would be cheaper at HSBC or RBS

Quite untrue. The smallest bank in Scotland, the Airdrie Savings Bank, offers very competitive deals. Check them out.
60

noswod,

Honestas 21/10/2008 09:26:38
50,000 Scottish jobs will go. Look at the case studies of Lloyds TSB on Scottish Widows and the TSB. Each over a 10 year period sucked dry of the Scottish top managerial strategic thinking jobs, the back office stremlined doon to a fish bone of what it was before. As for the culture of the prudent Scot as being a safe haven for your cash ground into dust by the operating mannual. Another part of Edinburgh will die with the filleting of HBOS by Lloyds, just like the financial district of St Anwdrews Square RIP. Slamond displays his political immaturity insisting that Scotland could have handled this crisis alone easily. If independent the Scottish Financial Mafia and Media would have overwhemled a Scots Nat Goverment. Regulation we dinny need that, we are "off to the races". Scotland would now be in the line at the IMF begging for a Structural Adjustment Package for £50bn having been shown the door by our so called friends at the EU and ECB. When a Scotsman needs a friend, or £38bn, ask another Scotsman in Southern Briton but expect to get carved up just like a Saturday night, at least you survive. Slamonds response to the crisis build a road bridge over the Forth for £4-6bn compared to £1bn spent by the French for the Millau Viaduct just shows you were ex RBS thinking and budgeting can get you to when its public money being spent.
61

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 09:38:52
96 Am Ballach
"The 100,000 job losses in Scotland was quoted by Jim Spowart, founder of the internet bank Intelligent Finance, on Politics Scotland.

That is because of a collapse in business for accountants, ad agencies, IT service industry etc."

I have just looked up the Scottish govt wbsite publications. It stated that the total number employed by the financial services industry in Scotland was 86,000 in 2006. Another 70,000 are employed by ouside companies who qre contracted by financial companies but many of them (eg ad agencies) will have other clients.

So Jim Spowart is saying that two thirds of all the jobs associated (many not even wholly dependent) with the financial sector are going to go just because HBOS no longer has an HQ on the mound. Bearing in mind that BoS was the smaller partner in the merger with Halifax and that many of the executive work of HBOS was carried out within the Halifax aspect anyway, one has to conclude that Jim Spowart's comments were indeed hysterical.

Is hardly anybody in Scotland going to continue in contracted or employed work for RBS, Standard Life, Martin Currie, Aberdeen Asset Managemant etc etc
62

Marga,

Fife 21/10/2008 09:42:16
Royster 63 - Just as Tesco and the like were allowed to destroy the social fabric of our towns, now you want Big Banking to be allowed to destroy the economic fabric too.
63

The Strategist,

21/10/2008 09:42:25
#72

Not such a daft idea. I'm not convinced that even if HBOS is "saved for the nation" it will make the slightest bit of difference to its behaviour. Much better perhaps to concentrate on designing a new bank that will do what we need it to do.
64

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/10/2008 09:43:12
#77 George

You make it sound like a hand-out from Brown. He has bought preference shares and the returns from them are commercially attractive. So, I don't think Brown did this for altruistic reasons. No-one believes that surely?
65

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/10/2008 09:46:03
78 Federalist

And which "piss-poor" policies are you referring to?

And how would you rate the policies of the last Executive, say for instance, their policy of closing down A&E Departments?
66

Marga,

Fife 21/10/2008 09:51:23
Noswood - 103 - interesting points. But I think you miss the potential for pulling something back from the mess we are in. At least some people are prepared to give it a try, the SNP and the Scotsman amongst them.

Only by building up a body of citizen resistance to the status quo will anything ever change. The institutions are - well, institutionalised, and aren't listening.

Identifying some of the problems like you do is a start, but you have to take it further and do something about it.
67

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/10/2008 09:52:23
#85 Federalist:

"The SNP pretend that somehow their policies would be fundamentally different from those operated by NuLabour at a UK level.They would not be"

How can you honestly say that the SNP policies will be the same as NuLab UK.

I haven't seen NuLab Westminster proposing LIT or free prescription charges or keeping A&E Depts local or setting up a Scottish Futures Trust or abandoning nuclear power stations or getting rid of Trident or scrapping bridge tolls etc etc.

Your statement is simply not credible !
68

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 09:54:58
108 Connaughtboy
"So, I don't think Brown did this for altruistic reasons. No-one believes that surely?"

I am saying he did this for altruistic reasons - he obviously did it out of necessity. But the fact reeamins that he has had to splash out billions to do it.

As far as the "commercially attractive" return is concerned, what else could he do? As I said earlier, he was surely under a duty to get as good a deal as he could get for the taxpayer. If he had splashed out billions without any regard to getting a return he would have been accused, quite rightly, of being reckless (yet again) in his govt spending.
69

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/10/2008 09:55:21
#85 in fairness to you, I have just read your post #86 which qualifies #85..

However, I would argue that for almost all policies it is impossible to separate the "social" from the "economic". The two are closely integrated.
70

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/10/2008 09:58:43
#92 George

Take a step back and see the bigger picture. We are talking about 100,000 jobs, many from the leagal and finacial organisations that support the banking sector. Reports indicate that some financial organisations are already laying people off in anticipation of the merger.
71

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/10/2008 09:58:52
legal
72

karinxxx,

21/10/2008 09:59:19
so scotsman alex salmond was right about this then.

I agree with you scotsman.
73

troonjambo,

Troonofcourse 21/10/2008 10:01:46
#95
Yes it was a penalty.

Now, was it a goal in the second half?
74

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/10/2008 10:01:47
George, here's the source:

"I thought it was interesting listening to Jim Spowart, founder of Standard Life and Intelligent Finance, on Sunday’s The Politics Show on BBC Scotland.

He offered the view that if the HBOS merger with the Lloyds TSB happened it could break the Treaty of Union between Scotland and England.

Spowart has been a long-time advocate against Scottish independence, so his views should be taken as a warning to Unionists over the proposed bank merger.

He estimated that around 100 000 jobs in Scotland, primarily in the central belt, could be lost if the proposed merger happens.

That figure includes jobs from businesses indirectly linked to the HBOS headquarters in Scotland, as well as the losses expected from HBOS themselves"

Politics Show last Sunday.
75

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 10:03:37
114 connaughtboy
Please see post 105. According to the Scottish govt the total number of people in Scotland employed by financial services companies and associated companies is 156,000. Are two thirds of these jobs going to go just because of one merger? Hardly a credible scenario.
76

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 10:05:17
118 Connaughboy.
As i said in post 119 that hardly seems credible. Anybody can come up with a scary story.
77

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 10:07:21
#113 With the SNP's current economic policy, we would still have no control over our currency and monetary policy as we would be reliant on the pound and, implicitly, the Bank of England. Also, it seems that we would still have regulation carried out by the Financial Services Authority.

Unless the SNP seriously address these issues they are undermining their own case for independence. I am no fan of independence, as you well know, but if we were to go down that route then for god's sake do it right. An independent Scotland should have a Scottish Central Bank issuing a Scottish currency until such time as we decided to enter the Eurozone. An independent Scotland should also have its own regulator to govern how Scottish businesses, especially those in the financial sector based and registered here, carry out their business.

Even with a truly independent central bank, currency and regulator the problem would still have been there - just maybe be a bit more manageable, especially if they had followed the post 1991 Norwegian banking model (or would it have been the Irish model? Depends who's flavour of the moment - deosn't it?).

A lot of ifs and buts here. Salmond has argued that the SNP would have regulated far more tightly but the evidence seems to be lacking. Ignoring the issue of who would be the regulator, it seems, if one considers his previous statements regards attracting financial institutions to a post-independence Scotland, that a post-independent Scotland would either have the same regulation as the rest of the UK or even less regulation.

This brings me back to my previous point - preventing such financial crisises from happening is not about independence but about political and economic management - and the SNP are, in my opinion, as lacking as NuLabour in that area.
78

inkster,

Mearns 21/10/2008 10:10:50
Apparently a group of MPs found that 181 of the biggest firms paid no cohe group of MPs found that rporation tax at all in 2005-6.

In contrast, 50 companies accounted for two-thirds of the £24bn collected in 2006-7.

Most of those were involved in oil, gas, banking and insurance.

It seems that Scotland pays most of the corporation tax as well.

And they say we can't support ourselves.

The question do we have to support the UK as well.

79

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/10/2008 10:12:33
#120 George

Maybe so, but Spowart is a reputable guy. I would like to see a proper analysis of this, but remember that the failure of a company within the financial sector will affect many other companies too. There is a cascade effect, the question is, how big will it be.
80

Ugly George,

21/10/2008 10:14:14
122 instaer
"It seems that Scotland pays most of the corporation tax as well"

Well wide of the mark I'm afraid. Look up the Scottish govt's own figutes for GERS 2006/07. They show that Scotland pyas about 8/9% of UK corporation tax.
81

brownlie,

21/10/2008 10:16:20
112 George

Yes, Gordon Brown was under a duty to get the best deal for the tax-payer. It is a pity that his former "prudent" fiscal policy could not prevent the situation arising in the first place or that the UK was not in a better financial position to address the situation.

The question now is whether his actions are beneficial to Scotland or to the Labour Party's election prospects?


117 Troonjambo

No - the whistle blew before the ball was headed into the net because two Hearts players, not for the first time, were impeding the goal-keeper - mind you, I may be biased!!
82

Miss H,

21/10/2008 10:19:01
121 SNP policy is to enter the euro subject to a referendum. So if an SNP Government is elected post independence that will be the route followed. Obviously you can't have a referendum on the euro immediately so there will be a period where we continue to use sterling. If people vote against the euro then the issue of an independent currency could become live but my feeling is that people will opt for the euro.
83

Ugly George,

21/10/2008 10:20:12
123
"Maybe so, but Spowart is a reputable guy".

Maybe so but, as your earlier post pointed out, he has a political agenda as well.

"that the failure of a company within the financial sector will affect many other companies too"

I thought that we were talking about the saving of a company to prevent its failure. Also the figure of 156,000 includes those companies which are contracted by the financial sector not just those who work for them. If one considers this one has to be sceptical over Spowarts assertion. Who is scaremongering now?
84

Miss H,

21/10/2008 10:21:20
120 What is significant about Spowart's position is that he was one of the people who put his name to an anti independence advert by Labour in 2007. He seems to have changed his position entirely.
85

inkster,

21/10/2008 10:21:39
That was a rather quick response ugly george. Keeping the figures masked on the run up to Glenrothes.

Depends on where the HQ is of course. If the Eglish hadn't moved the the Britoil HQ in Glasgow to London it would be a very different story.

In any case 8/9 % means Scotland is paying 100% of it's own whack compared to England.
86

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/10/2008 10:25:29
#121 A Scottish Central Bank would be absolutely necessary for an independent Scotland to function properly. The Scottish currency would still need to be tied to the pound for a period before entering the Eurozone. I see no reason why this would not could not happen.

As for the SNP policies versus Labour policies, I happen to genuinely believe that the current Labour group at Holyrood are a pretty low calibre bunch, who have become institutionally corrupted by too many years in power, unchallenged. They adopted a "we know best" attitude and treated the people of Scotland with disdain.
87

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/10/2008 10:29:14
#127 George.

I don't think I used the word "scaremongering" did I?

As I said above, I would like to see a proper, independent (can I use that word?) analysis of how many jobs will be affected. This would include jobs lost to call centres south of the border.
88

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 10:30:25
126 miss H
Opting for the Euro may be an aspiration rather than a reality unless there is a fundamental restructuring of the Scottish economy. For a country to join the euro it must have an annual deficit of no more than 3% of GDP under the stability pact.

The latest analysis (2006/07) shows that, even with a "geographical share" of north sea revenues the deficit was £2.7bn which is already very close to 3% of GDP.

Now bear in mind that north sea production is declining at an annual rate of 5 - 10% and that all economies seem to be entering a slowdown which reduces tax receipts and increases money spent on benefits. Consider also the The Scottish govt intends to fund major infrastructure projects (e.g New Forth Bridge) with borrowing. John Swinney says that he wants to spend £35bn over the next 10 years.

One has to wonder what the position will be in 5-10 years time. If Scotland does wish to join the euro it may have to make large reductions in public spending.
89

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 10:31:55
Miss H (126): "Obviously you can't have a referendum on the euro immediately so there will be a period where we continue to use sterling."

This seems illogical policy for at least two reasons: (i) it leaves Scotland using a currency issued by a foreign nation, whose interest rate it would not control, and (ii) in order to enter the Euro, the ECB must be satisfied that a nation's finances pass certain tests. It is difficult to see how success could be achieved without the creation of a Scottish central bank and a Scottish currency. Why does the SNP not support the latter?
90

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 10:33:11
131 connaughtboy
Sorry - I didn't mean to imply that you did. The point I was making is that many nationalists accuse Labour politicians of scaremongering by making exaggerated claims of the consequences of SNP policy. I was suggesting that, in this case, the reverse was the case.
91

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 10:33:38
#130 The SNP are not offering either a Scottish central bank nor an independent Scottish currency - their policy changed some time ago.
92

Alan B,

21/10/2008 10:34:00
"The Federalist"

You say their is no real difference between labour and the snp on economic policy. I would have to strongly disagree (beyond the fact they would both run a market economy).

1)the snp have cut business rates in scotland. Labour have run higher business rates in scotland than England reversing the tory policy to harmonise business rates between scotland and england, disadvantaging scottish business.

2)the snp want fiscal autonomy. that would give scotland the power of taxation, one of the most fundamental tools of economic management.

3)the snp want to lower corporation tax to 20%. Labour have not used business taxation to try to address scotland economic growth.

4)the snp want to join the euro but would let the people choose via a referendum becuase of the political implications. Labour have pretty well given up on the euro because of the fact it is not politically acceptable in england.

Not sure why you advocate a scottish pound. To me it makes sense to go straight from the pound to the euro. I see little point in a costly and economically short term strategy of adopting a scottish pound. Simly adopting the euro would be a far better option.

5)the snp want competition policy to be done in scotland. Scotland could then decide how it wants to persue that policy.

6)the snp wants the freedom for scotland to adopt economic policies for scotland. it want the freedom for scotland to change economic policies as the people kick out failed scottish governments.

I think you confuse having a complete economic strategy with having control of that economic strategy and having the ability to change and modify to meet the demands of the global market.

That freedom would allow scotland to say try to implement policies to improve business start ups. Alter the culture towards business. Niche scotland within the global market place.
93

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 10:36:46
connaughtboy (130): "A Scottish Central Bank would be absolutely necessary for an independent Scotland to function properly."

Agreed.

"The Scottish currency would still need to be tied to the pound for a period before entering the Eurozone."

Why? Shadowing Sterling using, say, the recreated Pound Scot would be good policy, but would limit Scottish economic policy enormously. In particular, it would imply that Scotland's interest rate would also shadow the Bank of England's. There is also the problem that the Pound Scot would be a petro-currency, unlike Sterling post-Scottish secession, and this would be likely to drive the currencies apart.
94

Stirling Sentinel,

Stirling 21/10/2008 10:41:24
Charles Tinskull is really becoming a bit of a nuisance in these postings. His commnts are tedious and incomprehensible except to his cronies.

Past your sell by date Charles !! Go to bed earlier.
95

Stephen Cowley,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 10:43:46
I think there should be a reconsideration of the plc model for banks. The Dunfermline Building Society, which is a mutual, has not had the problems of the plc's building societies, for example.

The requirement of shareholders is for increased returns and there is generally a risk appetite (though it has come badly unstuck in this case). Arguably, this is inconsistent with the requirement for security in means of payment. Perhaps merchant and investment banking functions should be separated from the consumer side - or managed at arms length.
96

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 10:44:33
#132 That is another problem with the present post-independence economic policies of the SNP - they seem to take no account of either their own social policy expenditure committments nor the existing over-bloated Scottish public sector.

The SNP could answer many of its economic critics if it completely overhauled its policies for a post-independence Scotland.

Perhaps the problem is though that the SNP are by-and-large gut nationalists not economic nationalists - and it is in the economics that they need to convince a predominantly agnostic electorate.
97

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/10/2008 10:44:45
132 George#

'The latest analysis (2006/07) shows that, even with a "geographical share" of north sea revenues the deficit was £2.7bn which is already very close to 3% of GDP'

Not according to Grant Thornton.

SOARING oil prices would give an independent Scotland a £4.4 billion budget surplus, making it one of Europe's richest countries, according to a new study.

The surplus would allow Alex Salmond to maintain existing levels of public spending, while cutting corporation tax from 28% to 12.5%, reducing income tax by 5p in the pound and still having £2 billion every year to invest in a Norwegian-style oil fund to safeguard Scotland against a future decline in North Sea oil revenue.

The study, based on Treasury oil revenue forecasts and official spending figures, has calculated that, without money from the taxation of oil and gas, an independent Scotland would have an underlying deficit of £7.8billion. But when £12.2billion of oil and gas revenues are included, Scotland would have a surplus of more than £4billion.

The findings are likely to be seized on by Salmond to claim in a referendum campaign that an independent Scotland would be one of the wealthiest nations in Europe.

This would create problems for Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, who has indicated that she supports a vote on separation.

Last week the Scottish government wrote to Alistair Darling, the chancellor, demanding talks on transferring North Sea revenues to Holyrood.

The calculations, by leading accountancy firm Grant Thornton, are in stark contrast to a UK government report in 2006 that indicated that an independent Scotland would have a deficit of £6billion, even if oil and gas revenues were taken into account. However, the price of oil has more than doubled since 2005 to $120 (£61) a barrel, leading economists to conclude that Scotland “is sitting on a gold mine”.

Maurice Fitzpatrick, an accountant with Grant Thornton, who has examined the economics of an in
98

Alan B,

21/10/2008 10:46:01
#Ugly George

2 points

1)one of the things about independence is what force governments to deal with the economic realities. As we have seen from labour for 10yrs in Scotland there was not priority to deal with economic issues.

2)the problem regarding deficits is mainly due as you know to Browns economic management. In or out the euro an independent scotland would have to address the large defiticits that Browns has lumbered the uk with. Just as the tories will be limited in adopting any economic strategy they may wish to implement if they get elected due to the dreadful fiscal position.

99

1stEdinburgh,

Scotland 21/10/2008 10:46:25
Once again, well done The Scotsman for its campaign to keep HBOS independent. As I have said here before, the argument for keeping HBOS is that it benefits Scotland as well as the rest of the UK by being the largest provider of residential mortgages and a bank with one of the largest UK networks. Walk along any Scottish town and you will see branches of HBOS and Lloyds TSB virtually next to each other. Mark my words, there will be a bloodbath of staff working in branches if a takeover is allowed. Also from my experience - working for both HBOS, Scottish Widows and Lloyds TSB in the past - if the takeover of Scottish Widows is anything to go by, there will be a cull in IT, call centres and other departments. Lloyds TSB is currently the largest importer of Indian IT staff of all UK banks as part of its 'outsourcing strategy' while we are currently heading for a total of 2m unemployed. It is also scandalous that it is being propped up by the UK Gov't (proportionally more compared to its size than HBOS) while trying to takeover a major competitor.
While supporting the Scotsman campaign, as far as the SNP trying to turn this into an independence argument, it's a long way from that and while SNP has done a lot of good things in a short space of time in power, it would still need to prove itslf that it can govern. I would rather support an alliance of Scottish Tories and Libs with the SNP against the worst Gov't in living memory, rather than SNP going it alone and alienating everyone for short term gains.
100

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/10/2008 10:46:34
Fairfax#

I think you will find Scotland would have no problem entering the Euro based on even a modest appraisal of the oil revenue available and that it would be the rest of the UK that were unable to meet the criteria.
101

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/10/2008 10:51:53
George#

If the countries leading accountants produce a report to the effect that Scotland would be in surplus then it would seem the ecomomic argument for staying in the UK are lost.

You should re-examine exactly WHY you want Scotland to remain part of the UK, it is certainly not that Scotland would be an economic failure despite you trawling UK Government sites for the worst statistics.

What reasons do you really have for the union..a bright future perhaps?
102

Alan B,

21/10/2008 10:52:16
#The Federalist

"Perhaps the problem is though that the SNP are by-and-large gut nationalists not economic nationalists"

With Salmond an economist at the helm I disagree. I think there are a few issues. One how do they persuade the public to vote for independence. How do they build support for that.

Realistically that is not about getting intricate with how you regulate the financial markets.

While i do not think they are nearly as bad. Blair has shown the way to win elections. Dumb everything down. Do not have policies. Talk about general aspirations. We can see Cameron has adopted that strategy. I heard Portillo on tv say that parties were silly to announce policies before an election. Obama is doing the very same.

Having said that the snp have alot of policies but they are in a difficult position of trying to build a coalition for independence. I am pro eu and pro euro. I also advocate a lowish tax system. However many others may want an anti eu high tax Norwegian model.

The snp want to adopt the euro but by puting it on the back burner and saying they would have a referendum on the issue they are ensuring that is not a referendum issue.
103

TWC,

Ayrshire 21/10/2008 10:54:23
Do you know what is sad about these posts, it appears that the fight for the bank has broken into a party split instead of a Notional need.
Predominately Labour wants the merger and Nationalists want the Bank independent.
If that isn't true then correct my misunderstanding.
I am not a Nat but if BoS can exist in its own right then I'm for it.
Some of the posts here are disgraceful and some are moronic making no sense whatsoever e.g "bring them on"
This person has not made a single contribution to any debate.
104

Alan B,

21/10/2008 10:55:01
#Stephen Cowley

The fundamental difference is building societies are not allowed to fund activity using the credit markets. Banks have funded the huge mortage growth via the wholesale credit markets. As these markets dried up after the US sub prime mortgage mess that has caused the fundamental problem.
105

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 10:57:04
Nevsky (144): "I think you will find Scotland would have no problem entering the Euro"

You have misunderstood my point. The ECB requirements are not onerous. However, it is difficult to see how they could be passed by any state lacking a central bank and a currency. In other words, it would be logical for the SNP to posit a Scottish central bank and a new currency post-independence.

"based on even a modest appraisal of the oil revenue available"

I hope you're also modestly appraising the English tax pounds supporting certain Scottish banks.
106

Alan B,

21/10/2008 11:00:43
#Fairfax

Luxembourg joined the euro and did not have a currency. Do not know if it had a central bank.


I do not think there would realistically be too many problems for scotland to go from the pound to the euro directly. I do not think that would really be an issue for the EU who wants countries to join the euro and has fudged and broken its criteria to let other countries join.
107

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 11:01:27
Nevsky (141): "However, the price of oil has more than doubled since 2005 to $120 (£61) a barrel, leading economists to conclude that Scotland “is sitting on a gold mine”."

If oil prices return to that level, then that's correct. On the other hand, oil prices are currently at $73:

http://www.oil-price.net/

In other words, they are somewhat closer to 2005 levels, implying a much smaller surplus.
108

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/10/2008 11:02:13
149 Fairfax#

'I hope you're also modestly appraising the English tax pounds supporting certain Scottish banks'

Yes and i am also including the £4 billion Scottish surplus to the two failed English Banks..Northern Rock and Bradford and Bingley.

Unlike England's borrowed £'s, Scotland's surplus paid for their bail out, England has had to borrow all the money on international markets as they have nothing in the piggy bank anymore!
109

Alan B,

21/10/2008 11:02:49
#Nevsky

I think fairfax is talking about the criteria where you should be in the erm type system tracking the euro for 2yrs before joining rather than the fiscal restrictions where deficits must be less than 3% and debt must be lower than 60% of gdp. (belgium joined with debt levels about 120%)
110

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/10/2008 11:08:16
151 Fairfax#

Regardles of what oil prices are today they are forcast to rise even higher than the highs they saw this year, perhaps to as much as $200 a barrel.

Perhaps you could average out the oil prices from the 1970s and i think you will find that oil prices ahve been lower yet Norway is still one of the richest countries in the world.

Oil will always be in demand and the price will rise again as you well know, it is a resource that Scotland has for the next 30 years and England has practically none..so we will take our share.

If it does reach $200 a barrel..Scotland will be sitting on a surplus of perhaps 8 to 10 billion a year, not bad for 5 million people.

Any forcast for England's economy post Scottish independence now that your financial institutions and their corporation tax will by drying up?
111

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 11:09:36
#146 Alan he may be an economist but he is still a gut nationalist. In any case - unless the SNP is a one-man band, their economic policy is the result of contributions from a range of nationalist opinion.

I have said before that the economics of independence are not the defining issue for me. That could not , I suspect, be said for the majority of the Scottish electorate. And it still is a problem for the SNP until they tighten up their post-independence economic policy.

As it stands, we still don't know in what direction they would take us. Would we take the low tax, low public expenditure Irish route? Would we go the higher tax, higher public expenditure Norwegian route? Or would it be something completely different?

From what I have seen it seems to me that the SNP's post-independence economic policy is trying to be all things to all men - lower taxes and higher public expenditure and building up an oil fund. Unless they seriously address issues such as the bloated public sector and the over-reliance of Scotland on welfare services and state handouts I just cannot see how they can make the books balance and deliver their increased expenditure commitments for a post-independence Scotland.
112

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 11:10:28
Alan B (150): "Luxembourg joined the euro and did not have a currency. Do not know if it had a central bank."

That's a good counterexample. However, as I understand it, joining the Euro was one of the reasons for Luxembourg creating their central bank in 1998; see their central bank's webpage

http://www.bcl.lu/fr/bcl/index.html

You're correct that they didn't issue their own currency, so it's certainly possible to join the Euro without first issuing currency. However, Luxembourg is not much larger than Iceland -- I would suggest that the rules would be less fungible for a new Euro nation of 5 million.

"I do not think there would realistically be too many problems for scotland to go from the pound to the euro directly."

That might be true. However, the central bank requirement seems rather more necessary, not least because Eurozone nations retain responsibility for their financial stability. In other words, I can see no way in which Scotland could join the Eurozone without creating a Scottish central bank.

Incidentally, why is the SNP so against a Scottish central bank and currency? Both seem to be fairly natural components of an independent nation.
113

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/10/2008 11:10:54
Fairfax#

As far as i am aware England is already running at a defecit, just how do you see your country being able to turn this around and make a success of things?
114

Ugly George,

21/10/2008 11:13:26
145 Nevski
"If the countries leading accountants produce a report to the effect that Scotland would be in surplus then it would seem the ecomomic argument for staying in the UK are lost."

Hold on. You are referring to a forecast study done in the summer when the price of oil was hitting $140 per barrel and the study was done on that assumption. The current price of Brent crude is $69 so that analysis is out of date already.

Actual studies of the real picture have shown a deficit for each of the past 5 years. But this just shows the unreliability of ysing oil as a means of propping up the economy. Also, as I said, we are talking about the future (5/10 years from now). If the rate of production continues its decline then the amount of production will be substantially less with a consequent impact on revenues.
115

1stEdinburgh,

21/10/2008 11:14:12
# 147
I wholehartedly agree with you (read my post above) - it's about keeping HBOS not about arguing for ndependence at this stage.
Also saw earlier lots of infantile posts - not relevant - and our friend 'Bring them on' showing what a great wind-up merchant he is. PLEASE IGNRE HIM.
116

Lennox11,

21/10/2008 11:16:13
You really need to wake up and smell the coffee!
117

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 11:17:37
Nevsky (154): "If it does reach $200 a barrel..Scotland will be sitting on a surplus of perhaps 8 to 10 billion a year, not bad for 5 million people."

If it does, that's certainly correct.

"Any forcast for England's economy post Scottish independence now that your financial institutions and their corporation tax will by drying up?"

I think we'll be doing just fine after a few lean years.After all, presumably an oil-rich Scotland will be repaying some 90% of the tens of billions spent on Scottish banks. There's also Scotland's return of the Darien subsidy, corrected for inflation and interest obviously, together with reparations for inflicting the Stuarts on England.
118

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/10/2008 11:19:19
158 George#

Perhaps you can explain to me how Scotland even with a defecit could be worse than the UK figures..here they are from Bloomberg?

Your reasons have nothing to do with an economic argument so just what are they?

Oct. 20 (Bloomberg) -- Britain posted its biggest six-month budget deficit since World War II as the slide into a recession hobbled tax receipts and government spending jumped.

The 37.6 billion-pound shortfall ($65 billion) in the fiscal first half through September was the largest since records began in 1946, when Clement Attlee was prime minister, the Office for National Statistics said in London today. Last month, the deficit widened to 8.1 billion pounds.

119

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 11:20:26
#141 Grant Thornton's analysis is based on oil at $120 a barrel. Latest analysis with oil at $75 a barrel puts Scotland £1 billion in the red.

Relying on oil to fund the deficit is a dangerous route in my opinion - a post-independent Scotland should have to implement policies that make it a success whether or not there is oil. Oil revenues should be seen as a bonus.

Even taking Thornton's original £4.4 billion surplus - sounds great at first - until you realise that Norway has a surplus of £44 million in the current year.

The reason for this difference is not only the higher taxes and lower public expenditure that the Norwegians have but also the fact that they still have a substantial stake in the extraction of North Sea Oil through the state-owned Statoil.

Unless there were a radical overhaul in fiscal policy in Scotland as well as a major restructuring of the oil industry any talk of building up a petroleum fund on par with Norway's is pure fantasy.
120

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 11:20:38
Nevsky (157): "As far as i am aware England is already running at a defecit, just how do you see your country being able to turn this around and make a success of things?"

I think we should wholly abandon socialism. That should be much easier without the electorates of Scotland and Wales. of course, part of the deficit is due to the policies of a Scottish Chancellor , and now a PM, so it only seems fair for Scotland to pay reparations, don't you think? I suggest you give us central Edinburgh and St Andrews -- they would be much happier in England.
121

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/10/2008 11:21:05
161 Fairfax#

Even 10% of £36 billion is £3.6 billion and i believe that the banks will pay it back from preference shares..so what will the Scottish Government be paying exactly?
122

AJ Fife,

21/10/2008 11:22:02
Good to see the Scotsman supporting Mr Salmond in his quest to expose the highly questionable interference of the Scottish banking system by Downing St!
123

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 11:22:54
nevsky (154): "Regardles of what oil prices are today they are forcast to rise even higher than the highs they saw this year, perhaps to as much as $200 a barrel."

You haven't answered my original point: the current price is $75 per barrel, implying your Grant Thornton estimate of a surplus is vastly smaller. Presumably you accept this, given that you accept their estimate at $120 per barrel.
124

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/10/2008 11:23:54
Fairfax#

England has a few lean year..a collective debt of £650 billion and a six month defecit of £36 billion...lean alright!

Exports of Miss Marple and Poirot will not improve you budget defecit with the downturn in international markets.

So just how will England survive post Scottish independence?
125

Mr. Richard C. Normuss,

21/10/2008 11:24:22
#47

An excellent response to the Scotsman Journalist aka ‘Bring it on’ & ‘Charles Linskaill’.

He/she doesn’t partake in to much research prior to spewing their drivel, mind you in saying that what Scotsman journalist does?
126

Marga,

Fife 21/10/2008 11:25:55
143 1stEdinburgh,

Agree with some of your comments, i.e. about everyone pulling together, and about Lloyds practices:

See the following article in the Guardian for the heart-warming attitude of Lloyds-TSB:

Lloyds chief tells staff: you'll still get bonuses

Bank boss says bail-out imposes 'very, very few restrictions'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/oct/21/lloydstsbgroup-executivesalaries

127

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 11:26:49
Nevsky (165): "Even 10% of £36 billion is £3.6 billion and i believe that the banks will pay it back from preference shares..so what will the Scottish Government be paying exactly?"

At present equity levels, English taxpayers own a large part of these Scottish banks. If Scotland wished that to end, then some cash would be required.
128

TWC,

Ayrshire 21/10/2008 11:27:24
The Federalist, Looking through your posts I get confused as to your real position
Are you A Libdem Supporting Fiscal Autonomy, are you old labour at odds with the current disaster that is New Labour.
Do you think HBoS merger should be revisited?
129

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/10/2008 11:27:30
167 Fairfax#

You don't have a point to answer, if oil stays at £75 a for 1 onth even i would be surprised; hardly an argument against Norway's 30 years of prosperity in a fluctuating market is it?

Oil will go higher of that there is no doubt, should it go low they will just cut production and as i am writing this it is being discussed!

Still awaiting your answer as to where you see England being able to pay back it's debts and how you see the future?

What will you base your economy on? A dwindling financial market or perhaps a housing boom?
130

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 11:28:17
Nevsky (168): "So just how will England survive post Scottish independence?"

Who knows? Perhaps we'll cower in poverty before the might of Scotland. I'm fairly optimistic that all will be well. What do you predict?
131

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 21/10/2008 11:28:55
#146 AlanB

I think your paragraph about the Swiss Tony school of politics is very true.

However, I do agree with Fedralist that the SNP are basically a patriotic movement. Any economic arguments for independence are for consumption by people who are undecided on the issue. In the long run, they are fairly meaningless (as are economic arguments for remaining in the UK).

A Swiss Tony approach to the econimics of independence is apparent. As ever, the relentless message is that oil revenues will pay for all. Currently, this appears to be allied to tax cuts designed to attract big business, and somewhat reduced personnal taxation. Of course, the welfare state is assumed to be undiminised, or better.

The talk about any resultant loss of government income being accounted-for by huge efficieny savings does seem to have disappeared, though.

132

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/10/2008 11:30:00
174 Fairfax#

I have no idea that is why i am asking you. You seem able to conjure up figures and seem interested in the nitty-gritty of the Scottish details but when asked about England all you can say is 'i'm fairly optimistic'?

On what do you base this optimism?
133

Ugly George,

21/10/2008 11:30:28
154 Nevski
You have to get some perspective on this. Even if joining the euro becomes an option, it will be several years down the line. One has then to look at the possible sitaution.

Oil may still be extracted in 30 years time but that is not what is important. It is the rate of extraction that is important. According to the International Energy Authority (IEA) in its Sept 2008 report on UK oil supply :

"seen falling by 115kb/day in 2008 and by 165kb/day in 2009"

It also says "output from mature fields has fallen sharply" and "new field start ups expected in 2008 and 2009 are generally small"

It would appear that if this trend continues there will be a much lower rate of production in future years.

As far as oil reaching $200 per barrel is concerned. Even if it does spike to this at some stage, revenues depend oon a consistent price over a period of time. That is why the Grant Thornton analysis was faulty. Will the price of oil stay at that sort of price for a long time. OPEC is having to cut back production to stop the price falling and have set a target of $80 per barrel.
134

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 11:31:17
Nevsky (173): "You don't have a point to answer, if oil stays at £75 a for 1 onth even i would be surprised"

I see: you're being disingenuous.

"Still awaiting your answer as to where you see England being able to pay back it's debts and how you see the future?

What will you base your economy on? A dwindling financial market or perhaps a housing boom? "

I'm certainly worried about our debts, although they're yet to reach crisis levels. Perhaps we'll simply be poorer.
135

The Tin Man,

21/10/2008 11:32:33
#168 Nevsy

I am very glad to hear that an independent Scotland would not be liable for any of the UK national debt.
136

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/10/2008 11:34:24
177 George#

If production flow halves and the price doubles we are still in a very very good situation, we still have not extracted half of the north sea reserves remember which means that Scotland has the same revenue it could have had (if not more) for the past 30 years.

I will take that!
137

Alan B,

21/10/2008 11:35:09
#Fairfax

"Incidentally, why is the SNP so against a Scottish central bank and currency? "

I cannot speak for the snp. So do not know the reasons for their policy decisions.

I can just speak for myself. I support the idea of the euro and believe it would be better for Scotland economically. As such I would want scotland to adopt the euro rather than having a Scottish currency. I think it would give scotland the benefit of having lower interest rates while not having the currency fluxations within the euro zone single market. That in itself would encourage investment.

How you manage that transition is a different matter. And I would let the economic experts advise on the technicalities of that transition.

My personal belief of the snp position is to not get diverted in their goal of independence and try to make the transition seem less difficult. As such it came out with the weird we will keep the pound line. And then let the country decide afterwards.

Part of the problem for the snp is how to not scare people from the goal of independence. We can see the unionist line is generally one of fear rather than a positive argument for the union. ie scotland would not get into the EU.

The difficulty for the snp is also to keep a coalition with different visions of an independent scotland together. As such not dotting the i's and crossing the t's with regard to the exact nature of what say Salmond as leader would want to do is probably politically expedient.

The snp did this with regard to the monarchy a while ago. They abandoned the old rublican view which will still run strongly through the snp and traditional labour due to it being a complete diversion from the main and important goals.



138

Stephen Cowley,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 11:38:10
#148 Alan B

Thanks for this interesting information. It seems to me that the industry needs restructuring and state intervention serves to distort market signals - such as the absence of wholesale credit to the existing business models.

There are certainly possibilities for a decentralised restructuring and it is good that the Scotsman is raising this possibility.
139

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 11:39:18
Nevsky (176): "You seem able to conjure up figures and seem interested in the nitty-gritty of the Scottish details"

I merely pointed out the logical point that, if you accept the Grant Thornton figures of £4 billion based on $200 per barrel, then you must also accept a greatly reduced surplus if it remains at $75 per barrel. It's by no means impossible for this to occur for some years, given a world recession. It's interesting that, having posted some statistics with which you presumably agree, you then avoid further discussion of the detail.

As for general economics, it's certainly worrying. I expect English GDP to decrease by some 5% over the next two years, due to the losses in finance, but it's impossible to say. Incidentally, it's also difficult to estimate the effect on Scotland of the finance bubble ending.
140

Ugly George,

21/10/2008 11:41:53
168 Nevski
"So just how will England survive post Scottish independence?"

That actually raises a few issues. The recent Oxford Economics study looked at the budgets of Scotland, Wlaes and Northern Irelandfor 2006/07. It concluded that Scotland (even with oil revenues) had a deficit of £2bn but Wales had a deficit of £9bn and Northern Ireland £7bn. These were for a year when the total UK deficit was relatively small. What would be the reaction of the people of England. They might say - well if Scotland leaves the UK, its all to play for - why don't we go the whole hog and split it up into 4. After all the UK that Ireland joined in 1801 no longer exists.

They cpold also say to themselves that they would be divesting themselves of the Welsh and NI economies both of which carry large surpluses leaving them with a much more manageable one.

"England has a few lean year..a collective debt of £650 billion and a six month defecit of £36 billion...lean alright!

These are the whole UK figures see above.
141

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 11:42:47
Alan B (181): "My personal belief of the snp position is to not get diverted in their goal of independence and try to make the transition seem less difficult. As such it came out with the weird we will keep the pound line. And then let the country decide afterwards."

I agree with your view that it would be logical for Scotland to join the Euro if independent. I am, however, disturbed, by your opinion here: this is a highly cynical view of the SNP, if I understand your point.
142

Alan B,

21/10/2008 11:45:32
#The Tin Man

"I do agree with Fedralist that the SNP are basically a patriotic movement"

Do not disagree with that. Just disagreed that they the current snp leadership were economic lite (with Salmond and Mather).

"Any economic arguments for independence are for consumption by people who are undecided on the issue."

Do not think it is clear cut as that. For me the biggest argument for independence is economic. That tends to drive my political view. However would agree that for different people it is different.

It used to be said that scots wanted independence in their hearts but voted with their wallets. Not sure if that was true or not but it does suggest that how people perceive it to affect their living standards is a big thing.


143

Ugly George,

21/10/2008 11:46:51
180 Nevski
"If production flow halves and the price doubles we are still in a very very good situation,"

Big if. But anyway that is not the case. As the IEA report states production is becoming more and more dependent on smaller fields. The oil companies went after the big easy fields first leaving the smaller and more difficult fields till later. But the smaller more difficult fields are much more expensive to exploit. This has an obvious impact on profitability and hence revenues.
144

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 11:50:53
180 Nevski
PS - That is what many people do not understand about oil revenues. 30/50/100 yeras of production does not entail 30/50/100 years of constant production and revenues.
145

Alan B,

21/10/2008 11:51:46
#Fairfax

Why would I not be cynical?

My view is partially cynical, but also partially practical. It makes sense from a political point of view not to get distracted by non core issues. The core issue for the snp is independence. The snp is at the end of the day a coalition of view points with a combined aimed of independence. All parties have a coalition of opinion. But with the nature of the snp it is more so.

As such it makes sense for them to say we want the euro but will put it to the electrate in a referendum.
146

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/10/2008 11:51:59
188 George#

So what? Are you telling me that Norway will not exploit every pennty that is in the oil fields or that where there is a profit to be made the companies won't?

You seem to think oil is a burden; worthless in price, undependable, shrinking fields etc etc etc in fact any excuse you can find to minimise the importance of it to Scotland..go tell it to the Norwegians!
147

Alan B,

21/10/2008 11:54:06
#Ugly George

How do you think the UK can be reformed to deliver a scottish economy that does not struggle with slow economic growth? And how feasible is it for the uk to reform to do this.
148

Alan B,

21/10/2008 11:59:48
#Fed

You want a union with England but in a very devolved manner ie with fiscal autonomy and even allowing scotland to operate with a different currency.

As such why not just have that union as scotland and england as equal partners within the european union. Just the same way as all the other countries currently have a union with the uk. What is the intrinsic advantage of having a direct union with england if it is so decentralised in the model you advocate, rather than having the union exist via the EU which delivers freedom of movement of people, a common currency, single market and will develop some sort of common foreign policy etc.

149

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 12:06:53
192 Alan B
I know what I would do but I don't think it would be politicallly acceptable.

Firstly, I would reform the NHS by making medical insurance compulsory with an adjustment to benefits for those who cannot afford it. The UK is quite unusual in having a totally free NHS. Most European countries and countries such as Australia and Ireland base their healthcare on some kind of insurance system.

This would immediately remove huge amounts from govt spending thus leaving room for tax cuts and/or reduction in debt.

I would also remove or at least reduce some of Gordon Brown's more extravagant items of public expenditure such as educational maintenance allowances.
150

John S,

21/10/2008 12:09:47
Best posts so far and in no particular order.
#147:TWC.
#159:1st Edinburgh.
#166:AJ Fife.
These will probably be the best posts until the "last post" is written.

151

brownlie,

21/10/2008 12:11:25
Alan B/Nevsky/George/Fairfax etc etc

Every-one seems to be putting forward the question as to what the SNP would do if independence is achieved.

Why is there an assumption that, post independence the SNP would be the Scottish Government?

As I understand it the referendum would be based on talks regarding discussion of independence with the UK Government.

If the time-table for the referendum is 2010 then, given a positive response by the electorate, the discussion would, presumably, take at least one year.

An election for the Scottish Parliament is due in 2011.

If the prospects of independence loomed then, presumably, there would be a formation of a Scottish Labour/Scottish Lib/Dems/Scottish Tory/SSP etc etc which would change the political landscape and give the opportunity for these new entities to form the Scottish Government.

At the moment the SNP seem to encompass a broad church of political opinion whose primary aim is to seek independence.

It is not unreasonable to suppose, therefore, that some would leave the SNP and join a more appropriate Scottish political party.

152

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 12:13:01
191 nevski
I am not saying that oil is worthless just that it is dangerous to assume that it will be a panacea. Many countries produce oil in significant quantities but are not secure financially - Algeria, Nigeria, Angola, Romania, Venezuela, Mexico, Lybia Kazakstan and even the Sudan etc. Russia produces over 8million barrels per day (5/6 times total UK production) but its stockmarket has plummeted in recent weeks - far more than UK.
153

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 12:33:09
194 Alan B
Another possible policy reform - Tax credits/child benefit

What is the point in millions of parents going through the hugely bureaucratic exercise of faily tax credits and receiving child benefit and what is the point in people earning very large amounts receiving child benefit. I would simplify the process - family tax credits for those in work up to a certain level of income (i.e. as it is now) Child benefit for those not in work only.
154

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 12:38:27
The SNP have approached this problem with impeccable judgement. Salmond has kept faith with his role in the original deal while the other Alex has explored the possibility of maintaining HBOS's independence.

The Alex Neil proposal is now very much in the ascendency since the banking system was stabilised with the promise of Government money.

With impeccable timing Alex Salmond is now able to rightly question the value of this merger/takeover. He is in good company, with many of Scotland's leading figures from the world of finance questioning the merger too.

But of course a major player, perhaps thee player in this campaign is now the Scotsman which has resumed its role of leading a public campaign on Scotland's behalf.

An SNP victory in the Glenrothes constituency can now kill this merger stone dead.

It will send the strongest possible signal to London that the people are behind the press, the politicians and the financiers who want this merger stopped, a signal which the Labour government would find impossible to ignore.
155

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 12:45:08
#172 I'm not a Lib Dem. Was a member of the Labour Party until Blair was elected leader. I could see then the direction Labour were heading in and I was not comfortable with it at all. The movement of Labour to the right has created a vacuum in Scottish and UK politics - there is no party for a voter like me - a non-Trotskyite, non-nationalist, democratic socialist. Many voters who are like me will have decided that the SNP is the best alternative - it ticks two out of those three boxes and they know they can vote against independence come a referendum.
156

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 12:56:42
#193 I am against uniformity, as it were, and believe in the celebration of diversity, also extending that to the diversity that exists within nations.

However, I would argue that independence is not the only route that can achieve that goal. I support a very decentralised form of federalism that I believe could achieve that aim. And that is not just federalism within the UK but a wider genuine European federalism. The first step for me is to decentralise the UK state - I don't quite see the point of going independent only to be subsumed within the present centralised EU structures. Whether you like it or not teh Uk does have substantial clout within the EU - I don't honestly believe that could happen within the EU as its structures presently stand. A more decentralised EU would make me far more inclined to follow the independence path.

But I also recognise that to achieve a genuinely federal Europe that this will only happen in increments. A step in the right direction in this country would be to have full fiscal autonomy - something I do believe the Nats could support as well.

That all being said, there are one set of circumstances where I could see myself voting for independence under the present European structures.

If a simple yes-no vote goes ahead in 2010 (or some other date) and the No campaign indicates that if they win it will mean no further dentralisation of power, then, and only then, would I vote yes in a referendum.
157

Miss H,

21/10/2008 12:57:13
Re the central bank/independent currency thing.

You've got to be realistic about this. An independent Scotland will be, on day one, exactly the same as it was the day before. We will inherit everything as it is. It is not going to be possible to create a whole new structure of government including a central bank and currency in a couple of weeks or months or indeed years. It has to be a gradual process.
158

,

21/10/2008 12:57:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
159

Miss H,

21/10/2008 13:01:10
196 That's right. The first thing that will happen post independence is a general election. That's why it's always difficult to answer questions about what will happen regarding x, y or z in an independent Scotland. We don't know because it depends who is elected. We could say what SNP policy is - such as joining the euro for example - but we can't predict how people will vote.
160

TWC,

Ayrshire 21/10/2008 13:14:35
(2nd attempt at this)

200 The Federalist, ditto
totally agree with what you are saying Labour have been useless and done nothing for Scotland.
Most of what SNP are proposing they should be supporting but because big labour say no they can't So they don't have any Scottish policies.
It looks(at the moment) like my votes will go to SNP.
161

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/10/2008 13:15:40
The real debt in Britain from the Guardian; Scotland just cannot afford any longer to be part of this failed state:


The British government often congratulates itself on its efforts to keep public finances on a stable and sustainable level. Yesterday Gordon Brown even claimed: "Debt is considerably lower than a decade ago". However, Britain's public debt is actually £1,866 billion, equivalent to 125.5% of GDP, nearly three times larger than the government's published figure of £645 billion and 43.4% of GDP. This measures out as a debt of £76,475 per British household.

162

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 13:25:31
Unionism is based on one assumption:

Scots are uniquely incapable of running our own affairs

As such it deserves to fail.
163

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 13:26:44
Miss H (202): "You've got to be realistic about this. An independent Scotland will be, on day one, exactly the same as it was the day before."

That's simply not true: it will almost immediately be faced with the need for bond auctions. The natural course is to create a central bank.

"We will inherit everything as it is."

That inheritance does not, however, include a central bank or Sterling. How will the new state conduct bond auctions, for example?

"It is not going to be possible to create a whole new structure of government including a central bank and currency in a couple of weeks or months or indeed years."

A new currency can be created almost immediately: all Sterling notes can continue in circulation, whilst Scots issued notes are redefined as Pound Scots, perhaps initially pegged to the Sterling. A central bank can also be created in the months between a referendum and full independence. I see little point in independence if the nettles of currency and central bank are not grasped: it's either unrealistic or, as Alan B suggests, disingenuous.
164

Perched, Smiling,

on the brink of a Nova, Nova Sotia 21/10/2008 13:32:14
#117 - TroonJambo

Is that you Craigy Boy?

The only Jambo I know that lives in Troon anyway.... :op
165

vimto,

21/10/2008 13:34:32
207. You are,it's not an assumption,it's fact!
166

The Tin Man,

21/10/2008 13:34:40
#204 Miss H

You are quite correct saying that things would be exactly the same, post-independence.

However, to be realistic, I can't see anything other than an SNP government with an unstoppable mandate, being elected if independence did occur. I believe that the future shape of Scotland would be shaped by the policies of that government for a considerable time, as after one or two terms of office, I believe we would be back to the usual political party compromises and moderation.

As such, I see the SNP's policies, whatever they may be, as being highly significant.
167

brownlie,

21/10/2008 13:37:50
200 The Fed

I am fascinated by your political logic. You say you cannot vote for Labour because they have moved, from your [point of view, too right of centre. Because they are further right of centre, logically, you cannot vote for the Tories. So you vote for the SNP - fair enough.

But if there is a referendum you would vote no. By voting no you will continue to be ruled by the Parties that you cannot vote for because they have gone right of centre or are too far right of centre.
168

Alan B,

21/10/2008 13:41:05
#Fed

You have confused me some what with your political view.

"Unless they seriously address issues such as the bloated public sector and the over-reliance of Scotland on welfare services and state handouts"

While i agree with you remark i cannot see how that view is compatible with

" there is no party for a voter like me - a ... democratic socialist"

A socialist is surely someone that believe in a large state. Technically socialism as opposed to capitalism believes in the state running the means of production although some within labour claim the title of socialism when in truth they are social democrats (high tax and big state).
169

The Tin Man,

21/10/2008 13:41:18
#208 Fairfax

I think that we would have to remain part of the UK for a year, or two, while the State is carved-up, currency is agreed, debt reallocated, and rental fees for government services lying outside Scotland are negociated.
170

Alan B,

21/10/2008 13:44:12
#Fairfax

I would not word it as disingenious more politically expedient. As i do not think their is anything disingenious in saying that they believe in the euro but would put it to the people in a referendum in the event of independence happening.
171

Nik,

Embra 21/10/2008 13:47:41
161 Fairfax

'I think we'll be doing just fine after a few lean years.After all, presumably an oil-rich Scotland will be repaying some 90% of the tens of billions spent on Scottish banks. There's also Scotland's return of the Darien subsidy, corrected for inflation and interest obviously, together with reparations for inflicting the Stuarts on England.'

Oh.. you seem to be missing out the reparations due to Scotland for the hundreds of years before the Union when our country was routinely being invaded and pillaged by England.

Best not forget that :)
172

Alan B,

21/10/2008 13:49:21
#The Tin Man

Personally i think we should achieve fiscal autonomy first. That would allow scotland to control it taxation. With that social security would also be devolved.

With fiscal autonomy that would clean up the financial arrangements. Debt could be allocated at that time.

There are 2 main issues 1 )do we want independence 2)how we transition to it.

I would like to have a dev max first to make the transition easier but the inevitable arguments about the destination means that you cannot necessarily chose the ideal path.

With a dev max arrangment in play that would allow scotland to join the euro while still in the UK. I could see NI doing the same thing.

Part of the problem with the uk as fed identifies is the over centralisation which means that scotland cannot argue wether the euro is good or bad for scotland.

173

vimto,

21/10/2008 13:56:14
Funny how most scots are left of centre, wonder why that is,could it be the "out for nout" way of thinking.
174

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 13:57:02
#213 I don't see a contradiction - working in the public sector I can see how inefficient it can be. It does not necessarily equate that I see the solution to the problem as being privatisation ie a non-socialist response. State controlled industries and the public sector can be run efficiently given the correct structures - it is reform of those structures I am advocating.
175

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 13:57:03
Nik (216): "Oh.. you seem to be missing out the reparations due to Scotland for the hundreds of years before the Union when our country was routinely being invaded and pillaged by England.

Best not forget that :)"

I haven't. I've merely offset it against Scotland's invasion of England, as an ally of France, in the early 16th century (you may recall the Battle of Flodden) and Scotland's re-opening the third stage of the Great Civil War in the 17th century.
176

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 13:59:28
The Tin Man (214): "I think that we would have to remain part of the UK for a year, or two, while the State is carved-up, currency is agreed, debt reallocated, and rental fees for government services lying outside Scotland are negociated."

That's likely. In that case, I can see no reason for the SNP to not include central bank and currency discussions in their policy.
177

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 14:01:28
#213 Actually there is a another type of socialist that does not support state control and ownership of the economy - the libertarian socialists, including the anarcho-socialists, libertarian marxists and anarcho-syndicalists. They propose that the means of production should be controlled by co-operative workers' councils and workplace democracy.
178

Alan B,

21/10/2008 14:07:08
#The Federalist

So given that you believe in state controlled industry and say you are a socialist and not advocating a mixed economy where some industry are in the private sector.

How would you transition the economy to have mass nationalisation. EU with the single market a right wing capitalist idea surely is not compatible with socialism and would mean the uk would have to pull out of the EU.

Are you seriously suggesting the the uk nationalise the banking system :) and rest of the financial institutions along with industry like making cars etc.

I could problably understand you arguing for some sort of mixed economy but socialism proper with the state running most industry seems faintly an obsolete idea whose time may come again in 50yrs time but not now.
179

Alan B,

21/10/2008 14:13:06
#211 Fed

Who would own the company if it is not the state. Would it not be the state run by "co-operative workers' councils and workplace democracy".

I think globalisation has overtaken any way for socialism to be workable.

Industries are now global. Whether it is drug companies to car companies to computer companies.

I think in some way in the future we could move to a post capitalist type of world but that is so far of.
180

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 14:18:18
#213 Don't ask me - I'm not a libertarian marxist - just aware that it is a theory of socialism that is not state-led.
181

Nik,

Embra 21/10/2008 14:18:23
209 Fairfax

'I haven't. I've merely offset it against Scotland's invasion of England, as an ally of France, in the early 16th century (you may recall the Battle of Flodden) and Scotland's re-opening the third stage of the Great Civil War in the 17th century.'

You mean Scotland's (alas unsuccessful) attempts at trying to wipe away any further threat of invasion from the South?

182

guru,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 14:19:14
I see the usual standard of ill-informed debate, including this naive letter from the Scotsman. Information on banking in Scotland is available if you if you go to the likes of Euro Monitor for example and pay for it.
The OFT can only conduct investigations it thinks it will win as it is mandated by the UK Treasury to ‘save’ the tax payer 3.5 times the cost. It has already blown this year’s budget on its bank charges investigation, which HMT has effectively put to one side. The majority of the staff that work for the OFT are in marketing by the way.
As I’ve stated earlier the political economics of bank survival trump competition policy so any complaining is pointless as the survival of the UK economy is deemed to take precedence. Therefore crofters going to the wall and probably the Scottish economy is an acceptable price to ‘save the system’.
Banks today need to tend towards an oligopoly to survive so small ones will be taken over, therefore any ‘spun off’ HBOS would soon be bought up by a larger overseas rival.
Are we not supposed to be prudent financiers in this country?
The current banking model and the incumbent Scottish Banks are finished we should put our efforts into creating the next alternative model, which can be UK wide but based in Scotland.
That is the key to the future of the economy. For all you nay sayers out there take a look at Zopa.com its an example of the new lending model, which cuts out the bank. If you can work out how to do that on a large scale you’ve got your new industry.
183

Shaken,

21/10/2008 14:22:52
Bring them on and Charles

Are you guys on day release? Your posts are like a sycophantic Brown love-in (when they make sense)When you don't make sense you are the equivalent of the House of Lords after a brandy lunch and cigars. All toffy nosed Euro Buggery and isn't being British great!

No it's not that's why we're in recession you pair of muppets!
184

Shaken,

21/10/2008 14:22:53
Bring them on and Charles

Are you guys on day release? Your posts are like a sycophantic Brown love-in (when they make sense)When you don't make sense you are the equivalent of the House of Lords after a brandy lunch and cigars. All toffy nosed Euro Buggery and isn't being British great!

No it's not that's why we're in recession you pair of muppets!
185

guru,

Edinburgh 21/10/2008 14:27:07
To 205 lets not forgot reparations due to the Cumbrian and Northumbrian folk who were routinely attacked by marauding Scots (reivers). We want the cost of all those lost sheep plus the expense of all those Peel towers.
We could also have ago at those vikings too.
186

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 14:31:07
#212 I think you misunderstand me - I did say I was a DEMOCRATIC socialist. The division between democratic socialist and state socialists is not just in terms of a revolutionary/reformist divide but also a democratic/authoritarian divide. Democratic socialists believe in an anti-authoritarian "socialism from below" where the population as a whole, and workers in particular, have an active participation in the management of economy.

The old Labour Party did to some extent try to stick to this democratic socialist tradition, established by the likes of the Independent Labour Party. NuLabour on the other hand displays all the centralising tendencies of traditional social democracy.
187

Nik,

Embra 21/10/2008 14:33:07
219 Guru

Thanks, Guru. You're touching on the point I was making.
188

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 14:38:38
Nik (215): "You mean Scotland's (alas unsuccessful) attempts at trying to wipe away any further threat of invasion from the South?"

In fact, James IV's Flodden adventure was part of his treaty obligation to France. As for re-opening the Civil Wars, that was the Presbyterian fundamentalism of the Covenanters.

219: "lets not forgot reparations due to the Cumbrian and Northumbrian folk who were routinely attacked by marauding Scots"

That's correct -- Scotocentric victimhood is much less plausible in Cumbria and Northumbria.
189

Dr Blockbuster aka Vince,

DUNBAR 21/10/2008 14:47:45
#5 Charles - well said!

Dr Blockbuster is past caring what happens to the ... hmmm ... bankers.

QED
190

Alan B,

21/10/2008 14:55:56
#The Federalist

I did not think you were pushing an authoritarian line.

Just do no know how socialism in any form can be workable in the modern world.

In the past like the 70s countries made most things for themselves. Now it is global industries like car companies, drug companies etc.I do not see how having a nationalised uk car company or companies worker lead is really practical anymore. Would we be using a uk computer operating system to run our computers (ok there is open source), uk made tvs etc. Nowadays you have 2 or 3 companies globally making tvs with other companies branding them.

In many ways i could much easier see someone arguing for a much more protectionist economic model based on the EU, with high employmnet regulations. But am having difficulty understanding the workability of any full socialist model.
191

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 15:03:37
#225 Decentralising power and decision-making would go some way to empowering the populace and by implication, the workers.
192

brownlie,

21/10/2008 15:12:13
226 The Fed

Would the referendum, which you would vote "no" to, not go some way to "decentralising power and decision-making"?
193

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 15:17:33
'227 brownlie,21/10/2008 15:12:13
226 The Fed

Would the referendum, which you would vote "no" to, not go some way to "decentralising power and decision-making"?'

You obviously did not read my earlier post #190:

"If a simple yes-no vote goes ahead in 2010 (or some other date) and the No campaign indicates that if they win it will mean no further dentralisation of power, then, and only then, would I vote yes in a referendum."
194

The Tin Man,

21/10/2008 15:27:07
#210 Fairfax

"That's likely. In that case, I can see no reason for the SNP to not include central bank and currency discussions in their policy."

...Personnaly, I want to know precisely they intend to do during any post-independence shenanegans. As only the SNP is advocating independence, the details have to come from them.

The ones that would actually effect me would be personal and corporate tax levels, any changes to the NHS, and whether or not I have to waste a couple of days of my life, and not inconsiderable expense, getting fresh visas stamped on a new passport, or if I can use a UK passport until it expires.
195

brownlie,

21/10/2008 15:29:11
228 The Fed

Sorry, I was so intrigued by your post at 189 that I missed the next one!

The same argument still holds that if there is a "Yes" vote at the referendum then decentralising of power and responsibility must automatically follow.

If there is a "no" vote then the status quo, i.e. rule from Westminster will continue to centralise power and, thus, automatically dilute responsibility.
196

Nik,

Embra 21/10/2008 15:51:33
223 Fairfax

'In fact, James IV's Flodden adventure was part of his treaty obligation to France. As for re-opening the Civil Wars, that was the Presbyterian fundamentalism of the Covenanters.'

Obviously. Perhaps you should find out why Scotland had to make treaties like that in the first place.

Anyway, you're completely missing the point I was making in my earlier post.
197

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 16:14:08
Nik (231): "Obviously. Perhaps you should find out why Scotland had to make treaties like that in the first place."

I'm already aware: Scotland backed the wrong horse.

Of course, that doesn't really explain the Covenanters and their wish to impose their own form of Prostestantism on the rest of Britain. It's certainly an irony of Scottish history that it owes its religious freedom to Cromwell's English conquest in the early 1650s.

"Anyway, you're completely missing the point I was making in my earlier post."

If your point is Scotocentric victimhood, then I'm afraid it's deliberate. If that's not your point, then please state it again.
198

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 16:20:03
The Tin Man (229): "The ones that would actually effect me would be personal and corporate tax levels, any changes to the NHS"

These are certainly vital questions, but they all depend on the existence of a Scottish central bank: Scotland will need to conduct bond auctions post-independence, in order to rationally plan public finances. For that reason alone, the avoidance of the need for a central bank is a strange omission from SNP policy. As I mentioned above in a discussion with Alan B, a central bank also seems to be required to join the Eurozone -- some functions are ceded to the ECB, but each Eurozone nation remains responsible for its own financial stability and bond auctions, so necessitating a central bank.
199

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 16:34:04
#230 Not necessarily so - independence could (I say could) just be a swap for centralised power at Westminster for centralised power at Holyrood.

What I am really saying is that I'd only vote no if it were clear that decentralisation of serious kind (not a sop) was forthcoming.
200

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 16:34:56
Oh great - Mr Cut & Paste is back.
201

westview,

rainbows end 21/10/2008 16:38:28
If we need to join up with other banking systems why not join up with like minded peaceful nations like the Scandinavians or Swiss or even the Celtic folk? Britain is not in the 'Red', it is in the 'Brown', so leave it to sink without us.
202

guru,

edinburgh 21/10/2008 16:38:57
No 222, the point I was making is that Zopa is an example of a new banking model as it cuts out the need for a traditional bank. Rates are higher as it is small a bit like a credit union but if someone cracks how to make it big then rates will fall. Imagine if the millions of people in the UK who had savings lent a proportion of this money to say a construction company to build a PFI type project? The "new-finco" provides the platform with risk management tools etc to match individual investors with those that wish to borrow funds and take a cut. Individual investors get good rates of return. The entity is not a deposit taker therefore avoids current FSA/BoE capital requirements.

I've no doubt this will be a difficult end state but this is what we (Scotland) should be doing as it is the model of tomorrow... and much more ethical than existing banks.

You leverage the power of social networks, which I believe Obama is doing in the USA at present. It’s a Web 2.0 world/future etc..
203

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 16:41:23
Hen Broon (234): "SCOTOCENTRIC VICTIMHOOD

Mr Pomposity rides again. What an oaf."

Congratulations! This is one of your most laconic posts ever. Are you decreasing your anafranil dosage?
204

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 16:44:03
#239 Must have found a way out of his straitjacket?
205

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 16:46:18
guru (238): "Imagine if the millions of people in the UK who had savings lent a proportion of this money to say a construction company to build a PFI type project?"

We already have this: many PFI projects are partly funded by corporate bonds, which savers can buy, or by buying equity is the companies involved (if PLCs). Further, savers can buy treasury bonds, in order to fund public spending.
206

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/10/2008 17:01:11
Didn't take them long to pull the Osbourne thread.

Was it due to legal threats from Osbourne or from Mandelson?
207

guru,

edinburgh 21/10/2008 17:05:28
#241 I see where you are coming from but this is not the same. This model exploits the margin difference that banks have to charge and avoids the need for regulatory capital, making it cheaper and profitable for those involved. It is also has an ethical foundation based on a Kantian dialectic.
It takes the idea behind credit unions and Islamic finance and turns it into a large-scale finance proposition based on sound business ethics.
208

Alan B,

21/10/2008 17:09:24
#Fed

"independence could (I say could) just be a swap for centralised power at Westminster for centralised power at Holyrood.

What I am really saying is that I'd only vote no if it were clear that decentralisation of serious kind (not a sop) was forthcoming."

1)by moving power to holyrood from westminster that would entail in itself significant decentralisation

2)it would be impossible to predict how much devolving of power from the scottish parliament to say councils etc would then necessarily take place as it would depend on the government people of scotland vote for.

3)is devolving power from the scottish parliament really that important. Surely it is how well they run public services that is important.

What exact model of decentralisation are you envisaging.
209

guru,

edinburgh 21/10/2008 17:15:52
Treasury bonds would offer a lower rate than new-finco as they are a risk free rate proxy.
Before Direct Line I'm sure the mainstream insurance brokers couldn't see the need for such a business model yet it now has a dominant market position in the UK...
210

Nikostratos,

21/10/2008 17:33:08
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mary-dejevsky/mary-dejevsky-scottish-independence-the-dream-that-just-melted-away-967703.html




Alex Salmond, Scotland's first minister and head of the Scottish National Party, is an adroit operator, and one whose future looked a better bet, in political stock market terms, than that of any party leader in the UK. Until the last couple of weeks, that is, when the comfortably round Mr Salmond has looked as though the stuffing has been knocked out of him. With the takeover and part-nationalisation respectively of HBOS and the Royal Bank of Scotland, the odds on Mr Salmond's realising his life's project – Scottish independence – have lengthened almost to infinity.

At the base level, Scotland lost control of two of its proudest institutions and had to look, again, to Westminster. And with those august banks went much of Scotland's reputation for thrift and sound management. The vulnerability of a few weeks undermined solidity built up over centuries. That might be unjust, but it is so.

At a higher level, the notion that Scotland could be viable as an independent country, in large part thanks to a strong financial services, has been discredited. Iceland, cited as a promising model for Scotland's future, proved the point with its precipitate descent into near-bankruptcy. Mr Salmond's reverie of a Nordic "arc of prosperity" was ridiculed south of the border as an "arc of insolvency".

And at the highest, least tangible level, there is psychology. How much belief will Scots retain in their country's ability to go it alone in the great global world? However angry they might feel about the Westminster rescue and what gave rise to it, will they not now see independence as too risky – a luxury no longer to be afforded?

Yet now I seriously doubt that Scotland will ever be independent. And I rather suspect, from his body language, if not from his defiant words to the SNP's conference on Sunday, that deep down Mr
211

Nikostratos,

21/10/2008 17:37:34
et now I seriously doubt that Scotland will ever be independent. And I rather suspect, from his body language, if not from his defiant words to the SNP's conference on Sunday, that deep down Mr Salmond agrees. At a time of such uncertainty sweeping in from outside, who would generate more of their own? Simply, the stars that came together to favour independence have moved out of alignment again.
212

brownlie,

21/10/2008 17:52:46
244 Alan B

The logical conclusion to the Fed's decentralisation would be "parish pump politics" with a federation of villages. Strange that a "social democrat" would support either Labour or Tory.

246/247 Nikos

Stop clutching at straws and let the dog take you for a walk.
213

OLDUFFER1,

edinburgh 21/10/2008 17:59:07
Does it not seem a little suspicious that the Scottish Banks have been hardest hit by recent problems leading to London Govt's conclusion that an independent Scotland could not have bailed them out?

By the way may not be good idea to rush to the Euro - look at problem S.Ireland has with all shoppers going up to North due to strong Euro!
214

Marga,

Fife 21/10/2008 19:06:59
Olduffer1, you could well be right on the Scottish banks, shock and awe politics at its finest. But euro or pound, it seems the G8 (don't remember us being asked) is now running everything anyway and about to write a new world handbook. So as the US dies, Europe takes up its mantle. But how long will Europe last, now its pretensions to unity of action have been blown, asks the Financial Times. Interesting questions.
215

Gtj,

21/10/2008 19:30:07
The Scotsman promoting an SNP initiative!

How does that saying go,

Written through gritted teeth.
216

TWC,

Ayrshire 21/10/2008 19:34:04
EBC were spinning against Osborne while Wee Ebc in Scotland were spinning for Murphy.
What is going on BBC are not even hiding their New Labour bias anymore and still the voters are leaving Labour in their droves.

Does anyone know what the referendium question was when Norway decided on independence?
217

OLDUFFER1,

edinburgh 21/10/2008 19:58:46
Well said Hen Broon. Nice to see an educated comment for a change!(Also with correct spelling!)
218

Truely English,

21/10/2008 20:52:54
It just does not seem to make any difference what we Brits do for Scotland, the Scots will always moan to get their own way and to try and make everyone else feel sorry for them.

Does anyone in Scotland understand that there is a financial crises going on Worldwide as it seems to have gone unnoticed in Northern Britain but not Southern Britain.

Thankfully, we have our Monarchy to pull everyone together at this most difficult of times for us all.
219

Fairfax,

21/10/2008 21:20:11
sm753 (257): "He even managed to leave in "advertisement" near the start of 253."

Well spotted! Nevertheless, despite Hen Broon's obvious view that I'm an evil imperialist Englishman, his quote of John Kay is particularly interesting -- Kay opines that Scotland could have afforded the £30 billion (or so), but adds the proviso:

"The capacity of Scotland to have delivered large loan guarantees behind it depends on the monetary union Scotland would be part of."

In other words, he cannot see an independent Scotland raising the £30 billion without being in the Eurozone (assuming he has no illusions that Scotland would continue to be in the Sterling zone). This is an increasingly common view amongst LSE economists. Here's the excellent Buiter revealing some advice given to Landsbanki earlier this year:

http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2008/10/icelands-bank-defaults-lessons-of-a-death-foretold/

The upshot is his view that a small nation cannot have both an international banking sector and its own currency.
220

,

21/10/2008 21:45:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
221

JoeMcT,

BlairsFantasyIsland 21/10/2008 21:57:25
"Thankfully, we have our Monarchy to pull everyone together at this most difficult of times for us all."

No doubt you had a tear in your eye when you posted that!

It's great to see that the spirit of Alf Garnet is still alive!!!!
222

Conan the Librarian™,

21/10/2008 22:51:14
258
Truely English

No matter what logical post comes before you, it always comes collapsing down before your unrelenting belief in the English way.

"I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability."

And hope you live under a very large bridge.
223

Conan the Librarian™,

21/10/2008 23:33:36
274
Sorry, I'm a wee bit fed up discussing how the Scots economy will collapse under Independence.

With Unionists, thats all it ever comes down to.

224

Bruce P,

Bute 21/10/2008 23:44:01
Interesting article, which is of course a load of rubbish because:

1) The Bank Of Scotland, despite being 313 years old, has been merely symbolic for at least the last 200 years due to the fact that all it does is print different bank notes from what everyone else in the UK gets. Salmond is having a hissy fit because he believes that having different bank notes is actually important. Maybe he's a collector. The rest of us in the real world understand that it doesn't matter what's on the bank note, but how much it's worth, and that's in the hands of the Bank of England. Maybe they should merge the two and create a Bank of Britain, since breaching the Act of Union seems to be all the rage these days (such as creating a devolved Scottish Parliament).

2) This merger will have no more effect on the Scottish Highstreet as it will anywhere else in the UK. There are still at least 5 other major banks in the UK which you can use, and countless other smaller ones. Use one of them if you think that Lloyds/HBOS is too big.

3) Despite injecting billions of pounds of capital (which of course an independent Scotland would sadly be completely unable to do) into the banking system, many of the banks are very unstable financially, and if they are financially unstable they are unlikely to lend to other banks, or to us - prolonging the crisis. Therefore a big institution is better than a small one as it has bigger resources, and so would be better suited to weather the storm. Lloyds/HBOS would also be more likely to lend to us and other banks and so could help ease the crisis. The FSA (once they've had a kick up the backside for poorly managing regulation up to now) will regulate it properly I'm sure, so there's not much yet to worry about in terms of monopolies.
Stop being so conservative and understand that in a financial crisis nostalgia stand's for nothing and reform and rescue count for everything.
225

Fairfax,

22/10/2008 09:05:05
Hen Broon (271): "Now then who will I believe mmm tough call. Fairfax or some other mad anonomous seeded troll from the Scotsmans Trolls r Us hamper?"

You can believe both of us. Had you read my post 260, you would have seen that I agree with Kay's implied point: it will be essential for an independent Scotland to belong to the Eurozone if it's to have an international banking sector.

 

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