Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Sunday, 6th July 2008

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

What now, Gordon?


Prime Minister in deep trouble after local election disaster

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 03 May 2008
GORDON Brown is today under intense pressure to work out how to return Labour to winning ways after presiding over the party's worst local election results in 40 years.
The scale of the electoral collapse surpassed even Labour's most private fears. A total of 331 Labour council seats, and nine councils, were lost as the party slumped behind the Liberal Democrats in the popularity stakes.

Even more worrying was th
e electorate's apparent willingness to embrace the sharp-suited style of David Cameron. Under his leadership, the Conservatives seized 44 per cent of the vote – in a general election enough to propel him into 10 Downing Street and provide a Commons majority of 138.

As commentators compared the results to the dark days of Labour under Michael Foot, the Prime Minister took the unusual step of spending the weekend at Chequers.

On taking power last summer, he promised to dispense with the stately home – once a convalescent home for injured army officers – as a weekend retreat. Instead it was to be reserved for brainstorming sessions – precisely what Labour MPs are now demanding as they smell defeat at the next general election.

This weekend, as Mr Brown looks to reconnect with his party and the public, the similarity between the Tories' success under Mr Cameron and Labour's rise to power under Tony Blair will not have gone unnoticed.

Back in 1995, the then Labour leader opened up a massive lead over John Major's Tories in the local elections. Two years later he led Labour to a landslide victory.

Mr Brown, who went to bed on Thursday night rather than witness Labour's dire performance unfold on television, will seek to regain the initiative with a "mini Queen's Speech" of policy initiatives within the next couple of weeks.

But as Tony Travers, a politics expert at the London School of Economics, told The Scotsman: "There is no point making a Queen's Speech unless you have something to put in it.

"As Alastair Campbell used to say, there has got to be a narrative. But first they have got to work out what the story is, and then tell it consistently in a way the public understands."

Around him, Mr Brown is hearing different advice. His chief whip, Geoff Hoon, claimed there was "no crisis". But every Labour MP contacted by The Scotsman yesterday called for him to "get back to basics" and reconnect with the party's core support. Great damage had been done by the 10p tax fiasco and the failure to appreciate the difficulties caused by soaring food and fuel bills, they said.

They realised they had just witnessed a Labour performance not seen since the "meltdown" of 1968 and surpassing even Labour's unpopularity in the early 1980s.

"We have got to relate to the day-to-day, bread-and-butter issues that affect people's lives," said David Blunkett, the former home secretary.

Senior Labour back-bencher Derek Wyatt turned the global economic crisis – Mr Brown's usual get-out clause – on its head when he declared that his parliamentary seat, with a majority of 79, was already "subprime". He said: "How many more Northern Rocks can there be? Look at the situation with fuel prices, the non-doms and the 10p tax band. Gordon has committed spectacular own-goals and the public is punishing him for it."

Mr Brown had begun his day with a sombre television interview in which he vowed to "learn the lessons" from the scale of the defeat.

Attempting to strike a note of contrition as he spoke from inside Downing Street, he said: "It's clear to me that this has been a disappointing night, indeed a bad night, for Labour. We have lessons to learn from that.

"We will learn the lessons. We will reflect on what has happened and then we will move forward."

His mood contrasted with that of Mr Cameron, who took to the skies for a whistle-stop tour of areas where the Tories had seized power, from the Vale of Glamorgan in Wales to Bury in Greater Manchester. "This is a big moment for the Conservative Party. This is a big step forward," he said.

Nick Clegg, the Lib Dem leader, also saw success, with the capture of 25 per cent of votes and winning councils such as Sheffield, Hull and Burnley.

When Labour lost control of former strongholds such as Reading, which it had held for 21 years, Mr Brown's critics took to the airwaves. Labour backbencher Ian Gibson said Mr Brown had until the autumn party conference to prove he could lead the party to victory.

But Andy Slaughter, Labour MP for Hammersmith and Fulham, said: "People are harsh with Gordon, particularly because they say this is the job he wanted for such a long time and should have been prepared for. When you look at his performance in opposition and in government over 20 years, we are clearly not seeing him at his best. But we know the potential is there and we know he can do it."

'He needs a national disaster to save him'

MAX CLIFFORD, PR GURU: "The problem has been that he has the image of being very strong and decisive man. But the authority that he had almost disappeared overnight at that "should we go for election, should we not?" episode. He dithered and dallied and that does not go down well with the British public.

"He had this image as the most successful chancellor, the man who had that quiet strength and authority.

Now the Conservatives, in their attacks on him, call him a ditherer.

"The British love someone who is strong and decisive, even if it's not someone they necessarily agree with: look at Maggie Thatcher. To be honest with you, the best thing that could happen to him is a national disaster – something that needs his attention, where he goes in and sorts it out and stamps his authority.

"It's a long uphill struggle otherwise, after a very bad start. But that's not to say it can't be turned around."

'Brown is the PM, the buck stops with him'

GEOFF MARTIN, CAMPAIGN GROUP LONDON HEALTH EMERGENCY: "I think time is running out for Gordon Brown. I think what he needs to do is send out urgent and clear messages to the Labour heartland that he does understand why people are so angry and bitterly disappointed.

"If he doesn't do that, and do it quickly, I think the next general election is quickly slipping away. He is the leader and the prime minister and the buck stops with him.

"Probably for the first time in a generation, Labour voters are switching directly to the Tories. I don't think I have seen that since Margaret Thatcher was in power. If I was in the Labour high command I would be deeply worried.

"I think the Labour government has got to re-engage its core support, such as public sector workers. The fact some core supporters think David Cameron is a better bet should be ringing alarm bells through Downing Street."


'We need to remind people of the good'

ANNE BEGG, LABOUR MP FOR ABERDEEN SOUTH: "We have done very badly. But I think people may not be quite as happy when they see what they have voted for.

"If you look at what happened in Aberdeen, Labour lost control of the council five years ago. Now the council appears to be in financial meltdown.

"There is a danger that sometimes you might think it's time to give the other lot a chance. That may not necessarily be the best idea, but it takes some time for people to realise.

"What happened over the 10p income tax is quite illustrative. I had people over 65 phoning my office saying 'why are you doubling my tax?' when in fact they will be better off as a result of the changes, as they will be taken out of the tax system altogether.

"Once you have been in government for a long time, people forget the good things you have done. We need to remind them of that."

'I think it's possible to turn things round'

KATY CLARK, LABOUR MP FOR AYRSHIRE NORTH AND ARRAN: "I think we have got to refocus on our core voters and win back the people we lost over Iraq. We have got to get out of Iraq as soon as possible and make it history.
"I think we have got to look to our core voters. I think we should enable councils to invest in a massive programme of council-house building. We have got to go back to basics and deliver for our people. In my view, we need a tax system – following on from what happened in the 10p tax issue – which lifts thousands on low incomes out of tax.

"We need to refocus, with a significant increase in child benefit, the minimum wage and the state pension. If we do that and we behave as Labour and Gordon Brown behaves as Labour Prime Minister, we will definitely win a fourth term.

"I think it's very, very possible to turn things round if we do the right things now. I don't believe that people don't want a Labour government. I believe they don't want a New Labour government."

GORDON BANKS, LABOUR MP FOR OCHIL AND SOUTH PERTHSHIRE: "We have got to wake up and understand that people don't have the same relationship with the Labour party now that they have had since 1997.

"Policy is the glue that will bind the Labour party together and bind people to the Labour Party. The carry-on over the 10p tax is a good example. We implemented the policy and, as everybody is now recognising, it had an unnecessary effect. It would have been much better to address that at the time, and that is something the Prime Minister and Chancellor are saying themselves.

"We have a moral duty to put it right and I have every hope and belief that we can. Two years is a long time in politics, as many people keep saying. I think there is still ample time for us to get things right. But we have to show the electorate we are listening to what they said to us on Thursday night. But it's what they have been saying to us in their mailbags for some time."

'PM must take wider range of advice'

MICHAEL CONNARTY, LABOUR MP FOR LINLITHGOW & EAST FALKIRK: "The first thing he (Gordon Brown] should do is take some time for reflection in a quiet environment and speak to a wider range of people than he has as far been asking for advice. This means not just his confidantes or those left over from the Blair era.

"These results point to the worst environment that any mid-term government has ever seen, therefore he has to learn the lessons. He has been listening to people lately after things went wrong. He needs to do this in the initial stages of decision making.

"I still think he is the person with the most solid record and good grasp of what needs to be done to improve the quality of life for the people of this country.

"It is not a personality issue. He has the style of a chancellor and will be a good prime minister. That transition is not easy."












The full article contains 1901 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 May 2008 12:36 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Labour Party
 
1

Alfred E. Neuman,

03/05/2008 00:42:41
Cheery-bye dear man!

Taxing my fuel, food, house, anything and everything that is essential to me to redictrubte this confiscated wealth to union apes.

My heart bleeds!
2

Angus Ogg,

03/05/2008 00:43:23

What Now For Gordon Brown ?

Well in Tony Blairs last sentence of his final speech in the House of Commons, the last two words from Blair were....

"The End"

Seems to fit well for Gordon Brown as well.
3

Alfred E. Neuman,

03/05/2008 00:47:16
3 Traquir... by your logic.

The SNP is imposed on the majority of the people of Scotland who do not want them. There is no logic in your assertion.

You really need to learn how to think.
4

Alfred E. Neuman,

03/05/2008 00:56:03
5 Traquir

You say the majority of the Scottish population does nto want Conservative rule, you suggest Scotland rebels and refuses to be governed by Tories.

We also know the majority of the Scottish population does not want SNP rule, you suggest Scotland should rebel against the SNP because their government is not bona fide.

You do need to learn how to think. You are a typical Democracy and freedom hating Nat.
5

Angus Ogg,

03/05/2008 00:57:26
#5, Traquir,

The only question tonight is:-

1. Will Gordon Brown resign before the General Election ? or,

2. Will the marginal Labour MP's sack him before the next General Election ?
6

Alfred E. Neuman,

03/05/2008 01:09:55
8 Tranquir

Scotland has self-dermined that is wants to form a Union with England, Wales and Northern Island. Why do you persist in your pathetic and ill-informed rants if you believe in democracy?
7

Alfred E. Neuman,

03/05/2008 01:18:37
11 Traquir

Ask Alex Salmond, he publicly accepted at the SNP conference in 1998 that the people of Scotland clearly did want the Union or they would have voted SNP.

So it is beyond doubt, you really are a cracker.
8

Lastsocialist,

Post-Union Socialist Phalanstery 03/05/2008 01:24:52
The British democratic system is clearly headed for some kind of absolute political meltdown. Not surprising given that the vast majority of our 'leaders' are sheep, spineless functionaries with zero capacity for independent rational action. Break the Union, break the Monarchy, destroy the existing political class, destroy all forms of commercial spectacular domination and factitious liberal 'individualism'. Resist the State, resist all forms of alienated labour, servile dependence on united states overproductivity, racially-driven resistance to european integration etc - at least then you might have a chance of preventing pimms-swilling hubristic bourgeois monkeys like the new mayor of london getting a look-in. Otherwise, your servitude is deserved.
9

Hubert Farnsworth,

03/05/2008 01:33:57
Man with jacket hanging on shoogelly nail said:

"He has the style of a chancellor and will be a good prime minister."

As Chancellor he sold the family silver, robbed the poor to feed the rich and put the nation into hock, to ingratiate himself with Tony - the fair weather PM.

And encouraged individuals to do likewise.

Now the bills must be paid and the buck stops at his desk...He is doomed!

10

Stepford Nat,

03/05/2008 02:05:13
Hs ha ha ha ha! Even behind the Lib dems - ha ha ha!

www.snp.org - we put the oats in gloats
11

Edward,

03/05/2008 02:15:12
#13
I agree the whole political scene is heading for meltdown, its whats needed.
We now have a Labour UK government who has ignored teh wishes of the people of Scotland, now having to deal with a Scottish Government thats not being ruled by their party, but by a party that they dislike intensely and go out of there way now to be antagonistic against. They now have a London Assembley, which is now lead by a Mayor who is conservative. England has shown that it no longer trusts Labour and its a certainty that when ever the next General Election is called, Labour will loose.
The question that every man and woman in Scotland should be asking themselves is this. Scotland has the chance to become Independent, should we take that next step?
12

Edward,

03/05/2008 02:30:41
With the swing to the tories, its reckoned that there is now at least 100 concerned Labour MP's thinking about what needs to be done to change this.
Gordon Brown is going to spend the weekend pondering what he needs to do to bring it around
You can bet that 100 plus Labour MP's are doing exactly the same. The outcome could be quite bloody with a best case senario for a demand that a section of the cabinet be replaced, that section being the Scottish MP's that are cabinet members, such as Alistair Darling. Worst case for Brown is that he is also asked to step down
Make no mistake the knives are being sharpened this weekend. Alistair Darling is being held to blame for a bumbling management of the economy. Brown is being blamed for the 10p fiasco. There are many English Labour MP's who feel that Scotland is getting more favours than it deserves (incorrect of course, but thats what the MP's are getting it in the neck from the constituents).
If this were to happen and Brown's position is weakened, the Wendy Alexander's crutch or controller is gone, she will no longer have family or freind in Westminster. With that the Labour appointed commission so called come review could take an interesting twist!
13

Stepford Nat,

03/05/2008 02:33:59
17 Edward

Very well put (and I think I love you, although I'm not lonely or bored or wishing I had company, I just think I identify with you)

www.snp.org - take the next step, like Edward says
14

Stepford Nat,

03/05/2008 02:37:44
18 Edward

Can you just confirm whether you are a native speaker of the british language? BTW, it's ok to admkit you've had a few bevvies...

www.snp.org - the "high" in highlanders!
15

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 03/05/2008 02:41:54
After reading the comments of the Labour MP's, it is evident that they still do not understand the depth of their problem. They still think they can spin their way out of this debacle.

A party of fools led by fools.
16

Edward,

03/05/2008 02:45:42
I think one of the defining moments on the day before the local elections in England, was when Gordon Brown was interviewed on the Today program by John Humphrys
When asked if he regreted dropping the 10p tax. Gordon Brown trotted out the same stubborn remark that the rate of tax had dropped from 22p to 20p. He still didnt get it that for those on low pay were actually going to pay an additional 10p
17

Edward,

03/05/2008 02:48:34
#20 Stepford Nat
Yes I can confirm that I am indeed a native speaker of the British Languague, allthough at times it can be difficult to believe as at time brain goes faster than thought or typoing control!
18

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 03/05/2008 02:49:37
They're ***ked, aren't they.
19

Stepford Nat,

03/05/2008 02:54:36
23 Ed

My brain think somethimes that like.

www.snp.org - aah, that was a good late night sh!t, It took a weight off my mind. I'll sleep well now ;-)))
20

subrosa,

03/05/2008 02:54:57
# 24 doonhammer

They are indeed. Now that David Cameron's got London they'll never get out of the mess.
21

a proud doonhamer,

03/05/2008 03:00:03
#26 subrosa

Yeah, and I like tories
22

Socrates2,

03/05/2008 03:21:34
iraq -- why did no scottish labour MP vote for an Inquiry into the Iraq War
23

R Corbett,

Robert Corbett (Edinburgh) 03/05/2008 03:31:02
Gordon Brown's been treated lightly by the media. They've not made his head into a turnip or a lightbulb.
24

glassbenmhor,

03/05/2008 03:34:16
The veranda doors are being closed,

The occupants of the room feel chill now,

and the last rays of the sun fall.

ROOM WITH A UNION VIEW
25

glassbenmhor,

03/05/2008 03:35:45
The latest game show,

FIND A LIBERAL
26

glassbenmhor,

03/05/2008 03:38:11
National Geographic

TO FIND A BY-PASS
27

R Corbett,

Robert Corbett (Edinburgh) 03/05/2008 03:59:22
#32 Glassblower - you talk in riddles mate. Load of piddle.

- Love the quote from PR Expert Max Clifford PR Guru: "Gordon needs a disaster"

- Gordon Brown IS a disaster
28

W Smith,

Middle East 03/05/2008 04:00:44
Looks like the tide is turning - at least in England.

'Old Labour' Red Ken Livingstone gets a good kicking - after shaking hands with an Imam who believes gays should be executed and our Ken went on to accuse some members of the British public of 'Islamophobia' BEFORE the London Underground bombings.

IDIOT!

Didn't our own Gerri Peev of The Scotsman suggest Alex Salmond should talk to Red Ken for advice!

BTW
'Popular' Ken Livingstone, who has 5 kids to three different women, is a protest friend of Alex Salmond.

CORRECT?
29

Alan Reid,

NZ 03/05/2008 04:30:53
W Smith:
Hey boy! still drinking your moonshine I see!
30

parks is colin nish,

cape town 03/05/2008 04:48:15
I think brown will go before the next general election ignoring all his mistakes and gaffes when you watch him he is false, his smile, mannerisms his jokes are all not him and it shows badly. He is a dour scotsman who got lucky at no 11 by living through good times and he is donald ducked now things have conspired against him. whatever you thought of Blair he had personality and timing, got out almost on his terms. What makes things worse for him is having that muppet Darling beside him, I have no doubt they have a far better grasp of economics than i do, but if other parties want to win an election 1000 adverts round the country with these two on it with 'do you want this for 5 more years, answers on a ballot paper please'
31

Macuistean,

Isle of Tiree 03/05/2008 05:30:19
There must be a lot of Labour MP's wondering how long they will stay in a job. I wonder how many of them cheered and waved their order papers when Gordon Brown finished his last budget speach? How many listened to it and voted to get rid of the 10% tax rate for the country's poor?
32

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 03/05/2008 05:35:41
The Labour party got greedy, corrupt, arrogant and had started regarding the people as vermin who were merely there as cash cows to milk at will for their idiotic and/or PC schemes.

John Major's government were just inept and kept jumping into bed with anything that had a heartbeat - this Labour government is just plain evil !!!

I hope the next government will see that the British people do not like to see waste and corruption in their local authorities, they do not like to see council tax bills soaring so government can make itself sooo large it is almost self perpetuating, they do not like to see front line services cut so middle management with made up jobs can keep their employ, they do not like being taxed by stealth and being ruled by speed (Tax) cameras and nazi wardens, they do not like being told they cannot bring up their children the way they would like and live in fear of prosecution should they offend some militant child protection league by raising their voice, They do not like manufactured congestion and soaring fuel prices, They do not like immigration being out of control and minority groups dictating policy for the majority ...

Wake up you weasels in the political class - your boss is angry! Return to small government and commonsense politics .... start working with the public interest at heart, cut out the waste, stop listening to minority groups who wish to impose their militant values on a majority. Start being proud of being Scottish and/or British and stand against anyone or anything that erodes the fabric of our nation.

There is not one politician who is not a poisoned dwarf or a sickeningly PC all things to all folk sort - In short there are no leaders, there is no direction, and this are no sides anymore.

How can democracy function when the only shop in town sells one brand ?

I just wonder who owns the shop ?

Still I'm sure I am not alone when I say am very pleased that Labour got a complete drubbing !!
33

missing home,

la verne 03/05/2008 05:44:00
redictrubte

what the heck does that mean?
Labour has lost the plot, it's about them staying in power, not about improving the lives of the people. Thank God people are finally wakening up to that fact
34

,

03/05/2008 05:46:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
35

missing home,

la verne 03/05/2008 05:47:18
redictrubte

that was for No.1, Alfred E Neuman

incidentally, Alfred E Neuman, David Archuletta, never seen in the same room....
36

yockel,

03/05/2008 06:12:04
More pallatable for labour to blame the 10% tax band than admit the truth that enough voters have noticed labour are corrupt liers.
37

,

03/05/2008 06:36:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 03/05/2008 06:45:07
Do these words from 1776 strike a chord with anyone else ?

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Would not a bungling, corrupt, draconian, squandering Labour party inspire such poetry ?
39

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 03/05/2008 06:46:38
39 - Spot on .. !
40

steve 1511,

aberdeen 03/05/2008 06:49:48
a few clues for gordon on how it went wrong
lies on europe vote
lies on iraq
corrupt politicians taking bungs
screwing the poor
screwing pensions
failing to deal with murderers etc and giving them a long enough sentence,and letting them out early

in general failing in all aspects of society from police on health on schools on immigration you have squandered this countries wealth

labour are britians failures

41

Blarney,

Dundee 03/05/2008 06:53:56
TAXI!! TAXI FOR LABOUR!!
42

Blarney,

Glenrothes 03/05/2008 06:55:42
Q. Taxi for Labour?
A: Yeah that's right.
Q. Where to?
A. Wilderness please.
43

Loki, Angel of Death,

The Dark Side 03/05/2008 07:12:08
I'm a bit late this morning to put the boot into GB. I just got home.

It's all really bleak and depressing. I wonder how the country's finances are doing? Have we any money left in the coffers? Even if it's just enough to get a pizza and sit and watch the end of the world.

Given the state of things now and what is inevitably to come. I'm guessing France for the birth of the anti-christ. It'll probably be Romania, I just hate the French. They hate me as well so I'm sure they'll give sanctuary to the spawn of satan just to get up my nose.

What's going to happen now? Mummy, I'm scared. The fat man who ran the country is bad and we must blame him for everything now!

All those people who bought nuclear shelters all those years ago must feel really silly.

Are we all going to die? Yes, eventually and in our own time unless of course some careless Bxxxxxd runs us over tomorrow.

Has anyone checked to see if there's a plan 'B' and does it have a happy ending?

Stay alive people, it's the only way to live

Loki

44

,

03/05/2008 07:32:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
45

marcoo,

03/05/2008 07:35:22
England is a capitalist democracy. Germany is a socialist people's state. And it is not the case that we think England is the richest land on earth. There are lords and City men in England who are in fact the richest men on earth. The broad masses, however, see little of this wealth. We see in England an army of millions of impoverished, socially enslaved, and oppressed people. Child labor is still a matter of course there. They have only heard about social welfare programs. Parliament occasionally discusses social legislation. Nowhere else is there such terrible and horrifying inequality as in the English slums. Those with good breeding take no notice of it. Should anyone speak of it in public, the press, which serves plutocratic democracy, quickly brands him the worst kind of rascal. They do not hesitate to make major changes in the Constitution if they are necessary to preserve capitalist democracy.

Capitalism democracy suffers from every possible modern social ailment. The lords and City people can remain the richest people one earth only because they constantly maintain their wealth by exploiting their colonies and preserving unbelievable poverty in their own country.
46

marcoo,

03/05/2008 07:37:18
We do not beg for votes. We demand conviction, devotion, passion! A vote is only a tool for us as well as for you. We will march into the marble halls of parliament, bringing with us the revolutionary will of the broad masses from which we came, called by fate and forming fate. We do not want to join this pile of manure. We are coming to shovel it out.

Do not believe that parliament is our goal. We have shown the enemy our nature from the podiums of our mass meetings and in the enormous demonstrations of our brown army. We will show it as well in the leaden atmosphere of parliament.

We are coming neither as friends or neutrals. We come as enemies! As the wolf attacks the sheep, so come we.

You are not among your friends any longer! You will not enjoy having us among you!
47

Jimmy the Pie,

03/05/2008 07:41:53
You've shown no dignity since coming to office Comrade Broon. Show some now and resign, retire to your very well paid job provided by your friends in the PFI/PPP industry and draw your not insubstantial state pension.


Are you listening???
48

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 03/05/2008 07:44:17
#3 Traquair Alba.

You offer two choices , quote:
. Scotland Independent governing her own affairs.
. Scotland governed by a party which is opposed
by ~85% of the population i.e. the Conservatives
much like the Thatcher era was
imposed on Scotland"

How ironic! The second choice is exactly what we have today! SNP governs with only 15% support of adult Scots! 85% of Scors did NOT vote SNP last time!

Of course, only very naive (ie numpty) persons believe that independence is a guarantee of heaven-on-earth. There are some 70 small nations and at least fifty are in deep shengis. The nearest example is Iceland; the worst is Zimbabwe. Mugabe abd SNP have a lot in common: keep voting until you get it right, then no more voting.

With so many successful federations, why is this option not being studied?
49

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 03/05/2008 07:51:00
Ann Begg, you fail to notice that, in fact, the people of Aberdeen KICKED OUT Labour because of their total incompetence. And the skeletons dropping out of every cupboard have the smell of Labour mismanagement about them. Much of the financial problems faced now were as the result of LABOUR'S tenure in office. Hear no evil...

Bye Gordo, shut the door behind you. Alex & Nicola all the way.


50

11+failed,

the pans 03/05/2008 08:06:06
Hang in there Gordon(and Wendy)take Labour down with you at the next election.The Tories did well in the English and Welsh local elections but the clear message was, anyone but Labour.
51

Blarney,

Arbroath 03/05/2008 08:12:16
Now what about about Ken Livingston for Labour Leader, that's an interesting thought.
52

Owain Glyndwr,

Caerdydd - Cardiff 03/05/2008 08:14:39
Thought our Scottish friends would like to know what really happened in Wales, seeing as the London (and Edinburgh) media has overlooked the excellent Plaid Cymru performance.

Plaid's seats now number circa 204, which is the highest in history (and up from 171, last time around) - not bad but not mentioned.

Plaid picked up 33 extra council seats across Wales. So when the BBC state 38 'other' gains throughout Wales & England, that is mostly PC but they cannot bring themselves to say it.

Plaid is the largest political party grouping in Gwynedd, Ceredigion, Ynys Mon (Anglesey), and Carmarthenshire.

Plaid gained extra seats in Cardiff, Caerphilly, Rhondda Cynon Taf, Wrexham, Torfaen, Newport, Neath Port Talbot, Conwy and Denbighshire

Due to the political make-up of the new councils Plaid could be in power in at least 7 councils, including Cardiff.

Yes, Plaid did lose control in Gwynedd by 3 seats (to independents and a local presure group of mostly Plaid orientated people), due to an isolated local issue, but those voters (if listened to and respected) will return to Plaid.

I apologise to those who are not interested, but all Scots should be aware of what is happenning in Wales as we are on the same political path.

Thanks for your time.

Ymlaen i Annibyniaeth - Forward to Independence


53

brownlie,

03/05/2008 08:24:45
55 Rules

Blindingly brilliant post.

Quite right to point out that those who believe in independence are naive "numpties".

This is an accusation that can never be levelled at the sensible and well-balanced electorate who are quite happy to vote for unionist parties who forget all about them until the next election is due.

However, I feel that it was a mistake to point out that the majority of the population did not vote for the SNP. The nats will point out that the majority of the population NEVER vote for the party that is in power.

Our much respected and loved UK government did not command the votes of anywhere near half the population.
54

Nikostratos,

03/05/2008 08:27:51
#59

Given the conservative and unionist party gained 256 seats and the nats only 33 seats with a total of 207.
Is hardly a tide towards independence more a dribble
55

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/05/2008 08:32:22
So Anne Begg is backing the doubling of the 10% income tax rate to 20% saying:

"I had people over 65 phoning my office saying 'why are you doubling my tax?' when in fact they will be better off as a result of the changes, as they will be taken out of the tax system altogether."

Now that's what I call listening.
56

Steve,

Bo'ness 03/05/2008 08:33:10
Well done Plaid.
And well done England for giving Gordon a shoeing.
Ha ha ha ha!!!!

Dead man walking
57

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/05/2008 08:40:48
Never underestimate the ability of Labour sheep to keep on voting these incompetents in to power. The alliance between its 'ma grandfaither voted Labour, so ah vote Labour' numpties and its carefully crafted clientele of welfare-dependants will ensure it scrapes by yet again. As for Bottler Broon, a psychotic megalomaniac like him will never go willingly; I hear the sound of Gotterdamerung playing in a Bunker under Number 10.
58

Nikostratos,

03/05/2008 08:51:21
Baa..baa....baaa..baaa vote labour..baa
59

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/05/2008 08:51:41
It is plain that the Labour party are still in denial. Despite all the nice words about reconnecting and learning lessons, you get the feeling that Labour are angry at the electorate for making a big issue of the abolition of the 10p income tax rate.

They don't seem to care about the effect it will have on the less well off nearly as much as the effect it will have on their own political future. Does anyone really believe that Brown would have performed his U-turn on the grounds of social justice alone. He was perfectly aware what he was doing.

His next problems will include the following:

the Lisbon Treaty
ID cards
£400 Vehicle Excise Duties on older cars
42 day Internment
Holding on to his own constituency seat in Scotland
etc,etc

Let's judge Brown by his actions on issues like these and see how much he is willing, not only to listen to the people, but also to act on their views.

It will never happen!
60

GM,

03/05/2008 08:52:17
@50

AM2 you passed comment in a thread yesterday about the poor showing of the nationalists in Wales -

any further comment now the votes are all in?
61

Red Tower,

Dunoon 03/05/2008 08:52:26
The thought of a 100+ Tory majority fills me with as much horror as the prospect of the present government staying in office.

Given the pathetic electoral system we have in this country which gives massive majorities to parties that can attract the support of only 15% of the total electorate we ,the voting public, will have to become a lot more sophisticated in how we use our votes.

The first thing we must realise is that governments with big majorities don't listen. They don't need to. As a result we must do everything in our power to minimise majorities. How do we do this ? We do it by forgetting about party loyalties. We do it by voting in constituency after constituency in a way that will best lower the votes of the major parties. This means not voting for the party you necesarily prefer but
by voting for the party that will inflict the most damage in terms to the Big Two.

Minority governments listen, they've got to.
62

GM,

03/05/2008 08:55:50
@66

and as for 'the rescue package' for those who lost out under the 10p tax change....

1 -
If it fully rescues everyone who is worse off, then why make the change in the first place

and

2 -
I believe the package will be a raft of extra benefits claimable by simply completing a 34 page form (in black pen only and keep within the boxes), and including ID such as a DNA Sample. Question 1 on the form will be multiple choice directing the applicant to 16 different sections within the document unless they were born in this country then question 1 does not apply please go to question 16(b).... (you get my drift?)
63

Owain Glyndwr,

03/05/2008 08:56:20
Re: Comment 61 - Nikostratos

Very bizarre comparison.

You are counting all the Tory gains in England & Wales against Plaid gains is Wales. Please compare like with like (i.e. votes/seats in Wales - I'll let you into a secret - Plaid didn't stand in England).

The Tories did do well in Wales on Thursday, but Plaid is the second largest political force with more councillors than the Tories and the Lib Dems.
64

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/05/2008 08:56:33
#6 Alf

You say that the majority of the Scottish population does not want SNP rule. That statement is true for each party in Scotland, just less so for the SNP.

What is your point?
65

mr angry,

ayrshire 03/05/2008 08:59:04
#59 Owain , well done and thanks for update, as ever the media , especially the BBC do not like to promote the local parties. You can ignore the clown at 61.
66

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/05/2008 09:02:47
#15 Hubert

He also did something just as damaging. That was to dramatically increase complexity and bureaucracy into everything he touched and by doing so he drove many small businesses to the wall.

This obssession with detail will be his ultimate downfall as we will witness when he comes up with a proposal to compensate the victims of the 10p income tax fiasco.
67

Slippylizard,

Sunny Rock 03/05/2008 09:03:17
Labour are on their way out. Gordon Brown is a miserable Scot who frankly does this country a dis service. It is only now becoming visible to the masses the "Gordon's" goodtime" was not created by him as C of Ex but by market forces and an enormous debt mountain. He has taxed us to a horrendous level and this includes my and your pensions. This did enormous damage and continues to do so to all of our pensions.
The sooner he and his chums go the better.
I could predict that in this forum some idiot would start harping on about "Thatcher" and Scotland. It is this pathetic "Name Shock" tactic that people use as if this one name encompasses all our countries woes for the last 100 years. She made a very big mistake alright and she won't be forgotten but can we move on from it please? Infact whilst we are at it could we move on from 1314 please? The tactic is used by both Labour & SNP in this country and frankly it is a sick note used as a threat which displays their own weakness in forward thinking rather than looking back.
I want to be part of the UK, most of my friends want to be part of the UK. Some of my friends are "English", yes English but they have spent most of their working lives in this country but feel there is an "intolerance" slowly growing against them. Personally I think the SNP have done quite well other than the grinning dwarf Salmond but I can never vote for them when they are continually trying to ram independence down my throat whether I want it or not. They are not listening to me or the majority of the voters in Scotland which is the mistake that Mr Brown and his cronies have made south of the Border. Whilst we are looking forward we must also give the Conservatives a platform to hear what they have to say and listen. Do they have policies at a National level that could benefit us in Scotland? After all the easiest thing is to continually bring the bogey out the bag "Thatcher" but as a nation we need to be a little smarter than just shouting for
68

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/05/2008 09:04:15
#68 Red Tower

A very good point. I think the SNP have done so surprisingly well since coming to power for exactly that reason.
69

Slippylizard,

Uddingston 03/05/2008 09:05:39
independence and we could find that it works out rather well for us.
70

brownlie,

03/05/2008 09:08:43
61 Nikos

Little acorns and mighty oaks!!
71

Alfred E. Neuman,

03/05/2008 09:09:42
71 Connaughtboy

My point was that the SNP idiot Traquir formed a rule at post 3 that for a government to be legitimate in needed the majority of a populations vote.

He then conveniently forgot to apply his newly founded idiocy consistently to Scotland as well.

It would be an improvement to these boards if buffoons that vote SNP could develop some sense of consistency of position or sense.
72

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 03/05/2008 09:12:34
#60 Brownlie.

Do I detect irony in your comments?

The fact to be grasped is that 'Scotland' is a latter day and alien invention.

All we indigenees are Britons.

Unionism is a failing attempt to recognise the historical and essential unity of this small island in the North Atlantic. Traditionally each section of Britain largely governed itself and that situation is best recaptured by Federalism.

The Scottish Nationalists are actually British traitors. In presenting themselves as the only alternative to Unionism they are also dissemblers.

If Britain is a body then a hived off Scotland is as much use as an amputated foot-both the body and the emancipated limb are weaker. Cui bono?
73

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/05/2008 09:19:18
#69 GM

Sounds depressingly likely. Brown revels in complexity. Also, despite popular belief, he is still Chancellor of the Exchequer!
74

Richard Head,

03/05/2008 09:19:30
I think Gordon B would make an excellent funeral director.
75

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/05/2008 09:20:33
#70 Owain

You may well be wasting your time with characters like Niko and Alfred. Be warned!
76

Marian,

03/05/2008 09:21:02
Shed no tears for Brown of the Political Class as he is the architect of his own misfortune but watch as the Media Class now turn and destroy him!
77

Publius,

Girvan 03/05/2008 09:26:50
A few thoughts about the elections.
(1) The next big test is the Crewe & Nantwich by-election at the end of the month. If the Tories win this one, it will be curtains for Labour. It looks like the Tories could win. They did very well in in the local elections in this part of Cheshire.
(2) A big question is whether there will be a ripple effect in Scotland. Will the Tories see some modest revival? Will Scottish businessmen throw some money to the Tories in the expectation of favours from a future Tory UK government? (Remember, this is what they did for the SNP before the last Holyrood elections.) Alternatively, will more Scots vote SNP to boot kick out Labour in Sotland while the English vote Tory to kick out Labour in England?
(3) Lots of comments on the Board about the elections in Wales. It would be useful to know the number of actual votes cast for each party. Some rural parts of Wales are very sparsely populated, so the number of councillors returned for each party may be misleading. I do know that many independents In Wales are left of Labour, so adding their number to independents in England is very misleading.

P.S. Where I wrote 'throw' above, I originally wrote 't.ss'. The Scotsman's computer wouldn't process it.
78

quepasache,

Caracas 03/05/2008 09:31:12
Since Tony Blair mistakenly gave Scotland limited independence I have watched Scotland slowly taking charge of it's future.

Under the sure footed political skill of your FM and his advisors each and every one of the enemies of Scotland's independence has fallen by the wayside.

No one knows what will happen in the future, sure, but to date it just has been one success after another for the future of Scotland as an independent country again.

If this continues Scotland will have control of it's oil, fishing and whisky revenues and will be free from interference by it's large bankrupt neighbour.

Viva Escocia!

79

Ananurhing,

03/05/2008 09:35:29
55# Rules.
"Of course, only very naive (ie numpty) persons believe that independence is a guarantee of heaven-on-earth"

Is that you personally abusing everyone who believes in the normality of independence in a democratic state?
80

brownlie,

03/05/2008 09:41:37
79 Rules

Interesting that you should say the Scottish Nationalist are British Traitors.

By definition surely traitors are those who betray the peoples' trust. For example, people trusted the Labour party to protect the poor and the vulnerable and this they manifestly failed to do. Regretfully I would suggest that that was traitorous.

Another definition of a traitor would be some-one who committed treason. Try as I might I cannot see how a party committed to the welfare of Scots can be regarded as such.

Perhaps you can enlighten us as to what precise acts are traitorous under either of those definitions.
81

Publius,

London 03/05/2008 09:45:45
#85 quepasache

You may be in Caracas but your native language is English. No educated Sapnish speaker would put three market trader's apostrophes in a short note.
82

Ananurhing,

03/05/2008 09:45:48
I'm looking forward to when Red Ken turns on Brown. They hate each other, and I'm sure Ken will blame Brown for his defeat.

Boris for Mayor? The panto season has started early this year, has it not? You really couldn't make this up. Wait till he turns his massive intellect on the Scots subsidy junkies (sic).
83

Peter Baleares,

Palma 03/05/2008 09:51:32
Lets hope that the Tory revival continues in England, that the SNP
gather more support in Scotland, and Plaid become the largest party in Wales, giving us all what we want, independence from each other.
84

JimC,

Kilmarnock 03/05/2008 09:54:55
KATY CLARK, LABOUR MP FOR AYRSHIRE NORTH AND ARRAN
(Quote) We need to invest in a massive programme of council-house building. We have got to go back to basics and deliver for our people. In my view, we need a tax system – following on from what happened in the 10p tax issue – which lifts thousands on low incomes out of tax."We need to refocus, with a significant increase in child benefit, the minimum wage and the state pension.

O Dear, so that's your idea of listening is it, let's buy back our core support yet all of Nu Labours recent policy is about private home building and as Darling said, "we will support home owners during the crunch to ensure their homes are not repossessed". This is a blatant attempt to protect public services, Labours breeding ground for corruption and waste on a grand scale. If social rents and council tax were not so high the minimum wage would not need a massive raise. If we stopped paying directors on councils huge wages simply to call in folks like Midwinter to do their job for them we could save a fortune.Its time we looked at the public sector, cut back on the slack and job duplication to lower the burden on the poor within our society.
85

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 03/05/2008 10:05:10
#86 I'm abusing anyone who thinks that independence automatically creates heaven-on earth, and no one else.

#87 ALL political parties in Scotland claim they have the best interests of Scots at heart. The SNP are traitorous in that they make that claim whilst at the same time destroying the natural unity of Britain for their own ill-considered purposes. The Union does need mending, but throwing out the baby with the bath water is for numpties. Nationalism is a negative, not a positive, force.
86

brownlie,

03/05/2008 10:12:47
92 Rules

It may come as a complete surprise to you that the SNP in their quest to let Scotland flourish have no obligations to the rest of Britain.

To even attempt to interfere with how the rest of the Uk is run would be seen, quite rightly, as extremely arrogant and disrepectful to England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Arrogance and lack of respect is much better illustrated by our unionist policies.
87

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 10:13:41
59. Well done Plaid! The reports yesterday were misleading, suggesting that Plaid had lost alot of seats. Good to see the reverse is true.
88

bluehead,

edinburgh 03/05/2008 10:15:27
listening to the excuses for the demolition of the labour goverment at the local elections and london
mayorship,the one thing they all had in common was that they all squawked like demented parrots waiting to be pushed of their perches
brown and his pile should go now,before this once great country gets even worse
89

Hubert Farnsworth,

03/05/2008 10:20:15
#79 Rulesbutnotrulers - "Traditionally each section of Britain largely governed itself and that situation is best recaptured by Federalism."

As our resident expert on the time at the fringes of pre-history, perhaps you could enlighten us by expanding on this.

1) Tell us the name of and location of our Federal Parliament.

2) Explain the demarcation lines between the Federal and Sate governments.

3) What did our flag look like.

4) What was the common language we all spoke.

5) Did we compete at the Olympics as a single team.

6) How does the first part of your statement reconcile it's self with the conclusion.
90

Truely English,

03/05/2008 10:30:22
The Tories had great results in England and Wales on Thursday and it is now time to start thinking how they will start progressing in Scotland as well.

I see Plaid Cymru has made small gains in the Principality, which will come to very little in the long run, as Wales l